The Paul Castellano Murder: The Mafia's Reaction to Gotti's Power Grab

The assassination of Paul Castellano outside Sparks Steak House on December 16, 1985, forever changed the American Mafia. John Gotti's bold move to eliminate the boss of the Gambino crime family sent shockwaves through New York's Five Families and reshaped the future of Cosa Nostra.

In this exclusive interview, John Livia sits down with former Colombo crime family associate Larry Mazza to discuss what the atmosphere was really like inside the Mafia after the hit. How did made members react? Did the other families support Gotti's rise, or did they view it as a dangerous betrayal of Mafia tradition? What was the mood on the streets as one of the most infamous mob assassinations in history unfolded?

Drawing from firsthand experience and personal knowledge of the era, Larry Mazza offers unique insight into the internal reaction of Cosa Nostra following the murder of Paul Castellano.

If you're interested in Mafia history, John Gotti, Paul Castellano, the Gambino crime family, the Five Families, organized crime, and the untold stories behind the headlines, this conversation is one you won't want to miss.

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Check out Larry Mazza's book at:
https://larrymazza-thelife.com

#JohnGotti #PaulCastellano #Mafia #CosaNostra #LarryMazza #JohnLivia #GambinoCrimeFamily #FiveFamilies #OrganizedCrime #MobHistory #TrueCrime #SparksSteakHouse

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Okay, here we go. Returned guest. Becoming like you're almost like fucking family at this point. Larry Mazza.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Family, I want to be your occasional co-host whenever you want me.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

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SPEAKER_00 0:20

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Yeah.

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SPEAKER_00 1:32

Well, listen, if it works for you, let me know. And like I says, I'll help you. Whatever. I got the gym. Uh, you know, I'm I'm I can't work out again probably till about August 18th because of the hernia is that I had corrected fixed, or whatever you want to call it.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

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SPEAKER_01 2:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Well, you just said people said they don't want, you know, you have to do that. What you're doing here is a passion of yours, but nobody has to do anything in this world for absolutely no reason.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

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SPEAKER_01 2:25

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Nobody cares when it's them. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

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SPEAKER_00 3:24

Yeah, yeah. You know, Scappy is it's a good chance Scappy was in prison because he was in and out those years.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Oh, that's right, that's right, yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Reaction at all. I don't know, you know, not that I never sat with him, I played cards with him, I was in the office when he was talking with Greg, but about that I don't really remember anything. But Greg was like quietly suspicious. I remember him being like sort of it didn't add up, right? You know, knowing that it would never be approved by uh the uh the other boss, you know, and it was sort of like just burst on the scene.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

But what happened after, what happened after when Frankie DeChico got blown up.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Okay, that was bad.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

All right, and I remember Greg liked Frankie DiCico. He said he was a tough guy all the way. He always liked him. You know, I the first time I met him, that's what he told me. He pointed to me, he said, that's a tough guy.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

You know, trying to teach me who's who, and you know, so I said, All right, Frankie DeChico. And I met all his family over the years. Uh, but it was sort of a quiet, suspicious shock to him. Like maybe it happened without him knowing, where again, knowing his position, he would have been able to score some points before it happened. Something quietly suspicious in my head, you know.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Was there what the we'll get into um you know, uh the the uh Frankie DeChico assassination that was supposed to be Gotti, but was there any did that create any chaos on the street? Like who's running what, who's going to now? Nothing, nothing like that. It was business as usual.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Families had their thing, and it wasn't now it should have been the commission's place to step in.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

I don't really know how they felt about it, what they said, but I do know that the Chin would never recognize him.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Junior Persico, I don't want to go that far that he wouldn't recognize him, but he never respected him.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

So I know John never liked that. Okay. Yeah, Bananos and the Lucches, they got along with whatever, but he had a he had a uh a vision of running that commission on his own, maybe like Carlo Gambino did if it was true that he really did back in the day. But none of the other families got involved, and they did move quickly, if I remember correctly, they moved quickly. They got their family together, they assured them there was no war, and they came out with their new administration real quick. It's like it was boom, boom, boom. This is it. Right, you know, there was no lull, there was no war, there was no war as who was gonna take over. But I will tell you this. Sammy once told me, okay, and I heard it a second time from somebody else, that when they were planning this, okay, and talking about who was gonna be who Frankie DeCico made a comment. Like he really didn't maybe he wanted the top spot, he didn't need that line light, he was happy, whatever. He told John you could be the boss, but I'm the boss.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

I heard that twice.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Okay, I could see that two different people.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Now, it's funny that soon after the Chico got blown up.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Okay. So who knows that? Yeah, because the the the word is that the Chico was killed in retaliation from the chin. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

And they say gas pipe screw had something to do with it.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Yeah, so apparently it was um the I think it was uh the chin and the the I forgot who it was, was Gaspipe, which was he wasn't with the Genevieves, he was with Lucchese, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Yeah, gas pipe lose the case.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

So they they from what I understand, they wanted retaliation. They they tried taking Gotti out. Yeah, and they thought John was gonna be there.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

Yeah, it was the bomb was set there. Could be, it could be again the lies and everything people tell each other, yeah, you don't really know.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

And then he also tried to, from what early interviews we we had with you and me, John was also trying to butter up Vicarena to try to get another family on his side. Yeah, right? He was tripping in his ear because he knew that the uh the Lucesian and Genovese did not like what happened.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Yeah, but but no, the Genovese and the Persia's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

Lucesi's was sort of play in the middle. Ah they were playing the middle, they would still kiss John's ass. I remember hearing that too. Okay, you know, they'll kiss his ass to be friends with him, the new big shot on the block. But the two that weren't was Persigo and and and the Chin. They weren't gonna have no part of it. Okay, though Gas, probably doing that, as much as he was behind John and back to him and this and that, he still wanted to score points with the Chin. So that I can see happening the way you just said.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Oh now in the middle, the Machiavelli. He's got both of them his friends.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Right, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

But he did, and John's plan was if Vic wins the war, that's why they got Joe Scopo's underboss, they were gonna kill Vic. Because Joe Scopo and John grew up together. They were very close, even though different families, very close, almost best friends.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Both tough guys. Joe Scopo's tough guy, too. John, no doubt. Those two guys, now he would step up and take charge of the Colombo family. Look at that sit sit down now at the commission.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Him and John together. Junior's in jail dying. The chins old walking around in a robe.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Right. You know, he already had the bananos on his side, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Oh, maybe. Yeah, I don't know. I believe that was the only family that was never talk about them because I I don't really know what to do. They were shelf for years, and I was told like that, they didn't really not, you know. But then when Anthony Spiro walked in, we kissed his ass because he was a boss and he was a nice guy.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

So I don't know. I'm not sure about them. But I know the Lucas played both ways.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

So but they but everybody had their little plan. You know, they had a plan, you know, and and if he would have took that over Joey Scopo, they would have had a a powerful team.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Yeah, if it if it would have planned out the way it did. But from another interview that you and I did, I remember you mentioned that um you guys were in talks of taking out Gotti after you won the war.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

There's no doubt about that.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Okay, can you tell that story again?

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Not after we won the war. That's a big difference.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Here's what was gonna happen after we got Nikki Black, okay, because he had told us to stop shooting John because he was going to trial. And I remember Greg saying, mind this business.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Yeah, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

So we went and we got Nikki, and it was big publicity, it was in the newspapers, so it did help his trial, he thought. Whatever. But he claimed that if he won his case, he was gonna come out and put everything he had behind Vicarina. So once he said that, we had a meeting. Okay, I'll tell you who was there. Carmine Sessa, our country. Greg, of course. Joe T, our boss, who was voted in as acting boss, official. He was our boss.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Uh myself.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Joe T, I I apologize. What was his last name?

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Tomcella.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Yeah, he's very well respected, longtime junior persigo, loyalist, uh, tough guy. I mean, man's man, you name it. Him and Greg were, you know, similar type guys. Uh, but he loved Greg. Even after Greg came out about Greg, he still supported Greg.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

He says that's a fucking man's man. Excuse my language. I don't care. You know, uh, which was weird because you're talking about snitches and rats and this and but him, you don't want to say it.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

You know, right, right, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

But I get it, I get it. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

So at the meeting.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

The meeting, Carl Mine Sessa, Joe T, Greg, Jimmy, and me. That's it. Because that's all that would know about it.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Okay. The way it was going to work out was Carl Mine was going to be in. Oh, and the reason, if he won his case, we don't want to be fighting two families. So enough we have our now, we got to fight them too.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Oh, right.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

But we take him out, because half of that family backed us anyway.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

But while John was around, they would never do that. Okay, and then the other half was like big John guy supporters, they shunned us. And we shunned them, so it doesn't matter. But Carl mine was gonna be in a van. This is on record, not only with the feds, also with the state of New York. He would be in a van when John came down with his limos, and they would get jump out of the car, he'd be behind them. Go right by to the end of the street. Mulberry, Mott Street around there, little Italy. That's what it's gonna be. The second van was gonna be Jimmy driving, me and Greg in the back out the windows. The third van was gonna be Joe Tate. That's how secretive this was. He would be blocking the street so nobody could come down, whether it was cops, anybody. And he just blocked the street and he'd probably rolled down the street real slow.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

I remember because I was realistic, I was nervous. I'm saying, are you kidding? You know. I said, he's gonna have 20 guys there. This is the difference between a guy like Greg and me. Okay, it's hear me out. I said, you know, and I'm thinking they're all gonna have guns and everything. Greg said to me, He says, Listen, you shoot, ain't for John, ain't for nobody else. And he's gonna do the same. I'm gonna have my rifle. We just keep shooting at John. Hit John. He says, All those other guys, they're gonna run for cover.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

They're gonna duck behind uh garbage pails, they're gonna run and then roll on the floor and hide behind cars. He says, none of them are gonna do anything, and they're not gonna have guns because of all the press. So he was smarter, he knew, and he had he had, you know, he didn't give a right.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

I'm saying, well, we're gonna go down the street, there's gonna be 20 of them, me and you. But he was right, and I saw that like probably two or three times after that, even though it didn't happen, where we had to go into a situation, and we knew they had eight to ten guys. As soon as we started shooting, there was one or two guys standing shooting back. Everybody else ducked the cover, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

But he was right. So the point is the two of us from less than 30 feet from the car to his doorway with two rifles, automatics, fast shooting rifles.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

We would have got them.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

We would have got him. It's a fact, like I said, the government knows it, it's documented. Did it happen? No, just like a couple of hits didn't happen during the war with the hand grenades or where we were gonna call Wild Bill out like we were FBI. There was a lot of different scenarios we wanted to do, but they didn't happen. This one would have happened, and like I said, not only the feds, the state knows it too. You know, the task force, they knew this would have happened, whether it was successful or not, who knows? I think it would have been based on what he just, you know, what he you know, what I just said, how Greg said, you know, the two of us shooting from point blank almost with rifles. Nobody do anything.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

You know, right. No, I uh, you know, when he when he was real street, street smart, so yeah, it makes all the sense in the world, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Absolutely, it was only because of our war. It had nothing to do with Castellano or any of that. Nobody cared about that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

He was already you know down, you know, he was already in uh at the boss for what a couple of years or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

But it was to save us from having to fight two families. Uh that meeting. I remember us sitting there, and a lot of times we'd have these big meetings with everybody, the person goes to Russo's, and when everybody started leaving, Joe would go like this to Greg. Let's go have our real meeting. Uh who was there? Him, Carmine, me, Jimmy, Greg, and a lot of times uh Joe's right-hand man, Jimmy Gooch. Okay, it was always there, but he was there a lot. You know, a lot of times there'd be maybe one or two other guys, but that was his nucleus, even him. Okay, whatever happened on our side, that table right there was gonna be important. Okay. It was where the trust was, you know. So to do to put the trust on that. Imagine if any of us at that table were weak and got messages to friends of ours that were around God. He's hey, tell John not to go to that club that I got.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Right, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

You know, that that shit happens in the life, but it's not even close with any of us, or none of us even thought of that.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

I people are always pulling somebody's coattail.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

Yeah. I got one more question for you about this, and then I'll let you go. I'm already taking up a lot of a lot of your time. It's okay. The I know that you when you guys were in the middle of the the war, uh, you had the feds coming down on you. I remember you know, the newspaper and the meet in the media. In the 80s, when John did this to Castellan, was there resentment for bringing a spotlight on Kozanostra because of him through with with the other guys?

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Yeah, there was. There was there was, and you know, again, I didn't hear it just from Greg or I mean, you would hear comments, you know, scappy. What does he think? He's the president, you know. Right, right. You know, Greg may laugh. Another guy will come in and say, Yeah, he's on Time Magazine again.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

You know, so you heard comments, uh, but again, it's like it's it's a it's a weird world, and then you got another 50% of them that are oh John Ghani, look at it.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Even in that life, like he's a man's man, he's this and that. And he is, he is. He was a man's man before he killed somebody, right? Just the way he presents himself. He's a good-looking guy, he's a tough guy, but it doesn't mean that gives you the right to just do whatever you want, break rules, kill people, and sell drugs, you know. So I don't know, I don't know, but yeah. Uh, but there was definitely resentment, and that's why when I talk about him sometimes, I say this I don't hate the guy, but don't tell me I have to love him.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

You know, I just say he wasn't my type. I if he was like Myolansky, making all that money, had all that power, but kept it in the background. Yeah, you know, he let which is who's my olansky's guy that the guy Bugsy Siegel or something. Yes, he was up the front man, and he wanted to know let somebody else do it. You know, the chim was that way. Who nobody even knew who the boss was in that family for years? That's right. That's this one, it was that one. But meanwhile, he's walking around with a bathrobe calling all the shots, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Yeah, so yeah, you know, yeah, uh Larry Larry, yeah, always much love and respect. That was a fantastic interview, man.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Good. I enjoy doing it with you, and uh stay in touch a couple of weeks from my lights, yeah. Paid the bill, I swear. Every hour they go out, every hour they go out.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Yeah, well, I'm glad you're doing better. I'm glad you're healing up. And um I think Joe is gonna want us on together. He's trying to put it together with me, you, him, and uh Jimmy on straight out of Jersey.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Yeah, let me know if Ben will be there. And again, basically the best two Monday through Wednesday is my best. Of course, I'm moving around a lot, but uh anytime Monday to Wednesday, we can figure it out. That'll be fun. Because maybe he'll remind me of some things that we did in the cell. Like if I says you can't do that, put those cigarettes away.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Yeah. Oh well, you'll be on uh you'll be on uh tomorrow American made with uh with him. And uh you'll be chopping it up with you. I'm definitely gonna tune into that.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

All right.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

All right, Larry. Thank you again.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

I'll see you in AC soon.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Okay, you got it. All right, later.