Episode 6: Cold Water, Calm Minds and Bringing Men Together | Tim Bowles

In Episode 6 of Och, Brothers! Where Art Thou?, Pietro and Ross sit down with Tim Bowles, founder of Campwell and co-founder of Icebreakers, two projects rooted in nature, connection, cold water, fire, and the simple but powerful act of men gathering together.

Tim grew up as the fifth generation on his family farm near Bath, where childhood meant open fields, rugby, bonfires, and a deep connection to the land. But after years working in advertising in London and wine distribution in Hong Kong, he felt the pull back home, not just to a place, but to a way of life that felt more honest.

Together, we talk about fatherhood, anxiety, the courage to step away from a “successful” path, and why so many men are carrying things they do not quite know how to name. Tim shares how the loss of friends, his own battles with anxiety, and a need for deeper male connection led to the creation of Icebreakers: a free men’s cold-water community built around nature, ritual, and brotherhood.

This is a conversation about fathers and sons, self-care without self-obsession, the difference between listening and fixing, and why sometimes the thing we need most is not another answer but a fire, a river, and a few good men willing to show up.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Okay, welcome back everybody to Ark Brothers Where I'm now. Ochers. Uh the podcast where we explore what it explore what it means. The podcast where we explore what it means to be a man in the modern world. It's been a minute, Ross, hasn't it? Where have you been?

SPEAKER_03 0:23

How rude. How rude. No, listen, uh, Scotland are shite. Um we've pretty much always been shite. And uh, you know, we have talents in other areas. I didn't expect for us to do well at the World Cup and delighted that we got three points. Um against Haiti. Uh I um what has surprised me is how uh in one breath we went from we're so excited to be there after two decades, the boys are gonna do us proud. It was just great to be there. Uh there are brave hearts, how from there, you know, after getting manager after getting our arches handed to us by Brazil, by the way. Brazil. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

Just like, oh, they're not trying, they're not turning up. It's like if anyone watched the um the qualifiers, particularly the last few games, and expected us to do well at the World Cup, then you're a fool yourself. Once again, you know, as Shakespeare said, uh expectation is the root of all heartache. I love I love watching Scotland at tournaments. Uh I'm not gonna have that experience sullied by the fact that that we didn't qualify for the for the knockouts. Uh it just is what it is, mate. You know, if you've got a if you've got a cob on, you might need to take a reality check.

SPEAKER_05 1:47

Um did enjoy the percentage of your the of you possibly going through, just going down uh hour by hour.

SPEAKER_03 1:55

No, I didn't I didn't enjoy that.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

It is what it is, mate. You know, it is what it is, mate. It's good to be there.

SPEAKER_05 2:04

It is what it is.

SPEAKER_03 2:05

I've got loads and loads of pals. No, that's not true. I've got three or four pals that were out in Boston, and uh it was great to just see the joy, the outpouring of joy for people to go out and and uh and show the Bostonians, you know, how how lovely we are uh and show them the standard before your you know beer swelling lagger louts come behind us and uh and I'm unfortunately the uh listen, we're just not the worst fans anymore. Once again, it's an expectations thing.

SPEAKER_05 2:42

This myth about the English, the English football fans, it's just not true anymore. Like we're literally not the worst fans.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

I actually I actually do agree with you. You're right. Yeah, it's a caricature. It's uh it was uh it was a reputation well earned, but I don't think uh mate, to be honest, those that would go and cause trouble can't afford to go to football anymore. Because it's yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:05

I mean, I just seeing some of the people that have gone out and like what they've done, I'm like, how on earth? Yeah, like I don't know, I don't know, maybe it's credit cards or what, but like you know, normal people I know seem to have been going to four or five games, and it's like wow, wow, and traveling the country, but yeah, you know. Uh next time round, it's Spain, Morocco, and Portugal, so that might be a bit more doable. Um we we we shall see. Alright, I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this this particular World Cup has been has been particularly expensive. I think we all know that. I've got a friend, a Mexican friend, and he's gone to a few games this time round, and um he um he's been to the last four World Cups, and he he he said, you know, all the other three were do completely doable. Like he's not a rich man, but he said this one has been for really, really challenging. It's the precedent, isn't it? It's just the worry. It's the worry that's I don't think it is. I think it's it's because it's America. I think it's because it's America and how they deal with sport.

SPEAKER_03 4:09

Um Yeah. I mean, who who would have thought it? We thought that and the um the hydration bricks, you know, so the American.

SPEAKER_05 4:18

Well, it's literally piss it's pissing it down.

SPEAKER_03 4:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:22

20 degrees. Anyway. Anyway, listen, enough of our waffle. We need to get into our guests. We've got an amazing guest today, so here we go. Enough of our waffle. We have a fantastic guest today, and we have a ton of stuff that we want to get through, so it is intro time. Um, our guest today is someone who's spent a lot of time thinking about connection, not just our connection to nature, but to ourselves, to people around us, and the communities we've perhaps lost along the way. Tim Bowles is the founder of Camp Well and co-founder of Icebreakers, two organizations built on a simple idea that sometimes the things we need uh most aren't more screens, more noise, or more advice. They're simply fresh air, a campfire, cold water, and the company of other people. Uh but that is only part of his story. Before all of that, Tim built a successful career in the corporate world, working in London and Hong Kong, before making the decision to return to his family farm near Bath, a place that had shaped him from childhood. Rather than running away from one life, it does feel like he was running back towards something he'd always known mattered. Um, today we're going to talk about that journey. We'll explore far uh family, fatherhood, entrepreneurship, purpose, and why so many men seem to be searching for something that they can't quite name, and whether the answer is really found in an ice bath or whether the cold water is simply an excuse to gather. Tim, it's an absolute pleasure to have you with us. Um welcome to Och Brothers.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

How are you? Yeah, I'm really well, thanks, and uh pleasure to be here. Love that intro. Yeah, all those huge amounts.

SPEAKER_05 6:14

Was it was it was it pretty, pretty bang on?

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Oh, really great. You'd done your research, I can tell. Uh yeah, and uh it touched on some really important parts of my life so far, and uh yeah, more to come. But yeah, uh connection is the is a huge word, so you've you've nailed it. Amazing.

SPEAKER_05 6:34

Well, I mean, let's kick off. Who is who is Tim? Who's Tim Bowles? Like before Campwell, before Icebreakers, uh the men's groups, you know, who was the the little lad growing up on the farm?

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Yeah, great question. Um for me, as you said, returning to myself has been a return to the little boy in me who just wanted to be outside playing on the land, and my favourite things to do was just make make fires. I was a bit of a pyromaniac. Uh never felt more free and alive when I was cooking up something or or burning anything that was available on the farm that I was allowed to, um, and often with my old man or my cousin, and uh just feeling the the wind in my hair, I guess, the the warmth of the fire, the the sounds, the smells, the smell of the smoke, uh something about it I think just connected me to myself and um I just felt really alive and free. And now I've created a business and a a charity uh for men that reconnects us to that part of ourselves. And uh it's my ambition now because inevitably with business, I keep getting pulled inside to screens, but I just want to keep returning to the campfire and that feeling of freedom and being outdoors. Um and you know, being outdoors that as a as a kid that looked like you know, building dens, um, yeah, cycling. I used to love sport, playing rugby. I'd I'd throw a ball around for hours on end and just chat absolute nonsense with friends and family. And I think, you know, when you go back to that childlike state, I think of how, you know, in our formative years, we're just so present. And I think for us men now it's about getting out of that busy mind and just feeling more present. And that's that's what's so inspiring about kids. They're great teachers, they're just so present. And uh that's I guess how I felt. And when I'm able to step into that playful state, I I feel more present. So I love that connection with my kids now and learning from them and being reminded about that state. It's uh a key to enjoying life, I think.

SPEAKER_05 8:53

Do you did did things change when you had kids? Did was that a like a catalyst, or was that was because I don't know it was for me?

SPEAKER_00 9:02

Oh yeah, I mean look, it's a game changer, right? Um I don't think anything prepares you fully for becoming a dad. It's so much. Um I think the overwhelming feeling of of love for something and sense of purpose for these beautiful little creatures, and um you do anything for them, right? And um it it's something so natural, so miraculous as well. I think it just blew my mind how something so special could happen to me. Um and then there's the the other flip of it that is it's really quite exhausting at times, and you know, with with the layers of life, with with business and relationship with your partner and um the intensity of the modern world, it is it becomes, you know, another weight to carry in many ways. So it it's been a real journey for me in my being a father to um to be more present uh mentally, not just physically, but mentally. Um that's been the biggest challenge, and I've I've worked hard on that, uh, and it came back to looking after myself first, I think actually. And then I was better equipped to look after to be more present for the kids and for my wife, um, which is just means everything to me, really. Um yeah, so you know it it is an utter joy, and I can be so playful with the kids when I'm when I've got the headspace and the the time. Um, but you know, it takes commitment, it takes commitment to look after me first. It's like that oxygen mask um analogy, isn't it? You've got to put your own on before you help others. I feel it's absolutely this the same for men and their their well-being.

SPEAKER_03 10:51

Yeah, just you know, as I was doing my research and reading through some of the bios that you have across the charity in the business, you know, so much resonated with me, you know, particularly your reference to smells. You did it in your intro there. You're talking about, you know, so much of my nostalgia, so much of my childhood memories are locked up in smell, which I feel like is it's such a kind of undervalued and under talked about uh aspect and uh of our sensory experience. And and I loved in in one of your bios you talked about, you know, I can't remember exactly what you said, but you said something like, you know, having kids has been the best and the most challenging thing that you've experienced. And that's absolutely true for me too. Let's have it right. So tough. It's so so tough. And you know, friends of mine who are having kids are about to have kids, I say to them, you know, it's it's the toughest thing you'll ever experienced. You know, it's impossible to explain just how challenging it's gonna be. But all I can guarantee you is that it it will just be worth it. It'll be worth it. You know, I agree with you, this thing about you can't pour from an empty cup, you can't give away what you want to have, and it's so important. I think as a leader, you know, if you're gonna be a leader in your family, uh a leader in your life, it's so important to be able to look after yourself. So you you know you have those reserves. And and you know, as you go as you've already said, it takes real discipline to keep that real boundaries, you know, real responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Yeah, it really does, and it it feels like selfish, doesn't it, to um to try and book in time for yourself when you you know, as men, we just want to be of service and fixed and uh be protectors and providers and all of the above. But actually, if we're as you say, coming from the empty cup, it it's just gonna show up as frustration, anger, you know, tiredness. And you know, I know I'm able to be my best self when I'm slept. You know, if I'm fresh out of a sauna, I'm not much more capable of dealing with screening kids than I am if I've had a a rubbish sleep and a stressful day at work. So um it it's finding that balance, isn't it? And um remembering that that part of ourselves that's uh that feels more present and um committing to finding that state more often. And it takes work for sure.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

Yeah. I mean, candidly, I've you know, I and and I again, you know, I I don't think that within a relationship, my partner Michelle, uh, you know, she brings things and I bring a different set of skills. Candidly, I found it most important, most difficult to actually get down on the floor and play with my kids. It's not something that uh it's not something that comes naturally to me. Uh so you know, if we're out or or we're rough playing or we're in the swimming pool, absolutely fine for me. But I really have to do my best to get down and be with them and be at their level and engage. Uh that's that's something that hasn't come naturally and it's something that I've really had to work at.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Yeah, and you mentioned the word boundaries, and I think you know that's an important part of us as as men to to have there, because you know, without boundaries, you know, that it's just a mess, right? And I think like my kids want to play straight after breakfast, before they leave for school, and it's like, guys, sorry, we just need to get shit done right now. We need to get you dressed, put shoes on. And you know, life isn't just one big uh big party and opportunity to play. Like we'll we'll make time for it, but sometimes we just need to do the things that are expected of us, and you know that's that's reality now and then. But it it's allowing for both, right? Like the yin and yan, it's um it's really important to have that balance and not be too set either way.

SPEAKER_05 14:33

Same with the and and showing fair showing fairness and um and yeah, I I th I think um yeah, I 100% agree. We have we have rules uh before school and they never change, you know, we keep that consistency. Um and to be honest, we've never we we rarely get any pushback from those things, even though you know they'll often the kids will often say, but the other kids don't do that either. So well that you know that's for their parents, and you know, we do things this way. Um I feel like we've always seem to have fairly calm and well-regulated children because those boundaries have always been in place and that consistency's always been in place. Um, but what I'm really interested to kind of touch on uh whilst we're talking about family, Tim, is your your dad and your relationship with your dad, because I I noticed on the bio of one of the uh uh one of the websites, it mentions your dad first, then your friends, and then your family family. And I I it stood out to me that because I thought, you know, I I used to have this conversation with my dad about my friends and how much I loved them. Like when I was a teenager, and my dad was like, oh, you know, family, family, family, family, family first. I was like, Well, yeah, sure, dad, but you know, like my I love my friends, like my friends are so important to me, they give me so much. Um, and um, and I'm not saying that one comes before the other, but when I saw that laid out as dad, friends, family, I wondered if I was looking too much into it.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

No, I I love that you spotted that, and uh, it's actually you know, it's happened for a reason, I guess. And I I think you know, my dad is well, he was my first sort of male role model, my the masculine presence for me in my life, and he's a traditional farmer and you know just ticks all the boxes with the stereotypes, but he is a wonderful man, and he's you know, from a young age, he's always been a real man of service. He he's always had a big heart, and um his emotional vocabulary is very minimal. Um, but he shows his love in acts of service, so he's always present, he's always checking in. Um I remember at uni he used to message me all the time, just how are you doing? And uh he he really gives a shit, and I felt that, you know. Sometimes showing love isn't just about staying it, it's about showing up and being present. And he was on the touchline of every rugby pitch, wherever he could could make it, he'd be there, whether it was in uh Scotland, Ireland, um just down the road or uh France, you know, he'd he'd make it his mission to be there on the on the touchline for me. And I used to love rugby, we're rugby mad in uh in our family, and you know, it was a world where I felt again, really um myself being on a rugby pitch. I I wanted to be a professional at one point until I kept breaking. Um, but he made me believe that I could do anything I wanted and he would be there supporting me. So he was a real wingman as well, and I feel like he sort of gave me a great grounding. He's a very calm presence. Um, and that that sense of calmness has played out in me, I feel. You know, we often inherit a lot from our our parents and our our dads, whether we like it or not. Um, and sometimes it takes some shaking off and um or you know, acknowledging. Um, but uh yeah, the there are many great things I'm grateful for for my old man for. And um as a young kid it was letting me make lots of bonfires, for example, and then it was you know coming to support me and my rugby passion. Um and now it's just you know being present and a helping hand, he's he's always willing, he's getting on a bit, bless him now. But um he's uh yeah, he's loved by everyone and and for that sort of calm presence rather than that playfulness. Um I wouldn't say he was an extremely playful dad, but you know, he he did his did his thing in other ways. Um and uh that meant a huge amount.

SPEAKER_03 18:53

And what example you talk about stereotypes of of farmers, uh, you know, I don't have a lot of experience of that rural lifestyle, but I imagine it's about as soon as or just before the sun gets up, you're working, and then you're working just until the sun goes down or or afterwards. Uh so what an example to to despite that, to despite the constant uh work of the farm to be you know turning up to your rug bae and supporting you at every opportunity. It's a wonderful example of as a father.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Yeah, totally. And look, I mean I imagine he inherited that from his dad, uh my granddad, who was uh a really dedicated farmer, you know, and I'm fifth generation on the the farm here, and we've been farming in the area since I think the 1400s. So farming, as you say, it's you know, it it's uh the farmer's work is never done, really. So um it it takes a commitment, it's a lifestyle, and it can be a wonderful thing, but it's also very hard. And my dad has been on the roller coaster of you know, riding through the rough times, and uh my parents divorced when I was really quite young, which you know was a real um rupture to many of you know many of our lives. And um he he sort of fought through that and and is has come out the other side uh really well. And um, but you know, the the farm is a is a very special place. It's often, you know, our ancestors often came from that that world and it feels like we're we're fortunate to be connected with the land, but it it's it's like a a blessing and a curse at the same time, right? It's um it's like gambling in terms of business. You never fully know what harvest is is gonna come or what the price of your your meat or your crop is gonna fetch at the market. It's uh it's taken a taken a beating over the years, but I I'm fortunate enough now not to be in the farming side of things so much, but we've diversified heavily and all the family have their various enterprises, and mine's the the retreat space of Campwell and the sauna, which uh I feel so lucky to have that and it's on my family farm. Uh, and I'm able to reconnect people with that lovely experience that I had um through my life of being on the land and being amongst nature, which is I feel a huge part of the world needs to experience again. You know, we're so we're so inside, we're so stuck on screens that just a little bit more time in nature is gonna I think find great amount of progress on so many levels if we're able to find the space to reconnect like that. And um yeah, absolutely, absolutely absolutely agree.

SPEAKER_03 21:45

Um go on, Pietro.

SPEAKER_05 21:47

No, no, you go for it, Ross. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:49

I was just gonna say, you know, it's something that I've really been kind of m meditating on recently is you talked about your, you know, perhaps your dad isn't the most effusive uh emotionally. And uh I think that You know, I'm really in the cowboys at the moment. This whole thing about kind of the strong and silent type. And I feel like there's a real forgotten dignity and resilience to that stuff. So we now I feel like it's been a good 15-20 years of um let's talk about how we feel and let's talk about it non-stop. And uh you can almost get it, one can almost get into a kind of a cycle of victimhood, one can get into this um hysteria where all you're doing is just wallowing in this grief. And I think that society we could do with pushing back a little bit, the pendulum could do with something, so we could do with rediscovering the strong and silent type uh in us, uh perhaps with that uh background of the emotional vocabulary that we've that that we've now created for ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

I'm totally with you there, Ross. I think that's that's a great point. And it's something that I've discovered, I think, or or realised being in this space, in in the men's space, particularly over the last over many years, is that um actually the this vulnerability piece is is essential for us to to connect with that part of ourselves, to understand our emotions, to feel our emotions rather than just think about them and to express them. Um that is absolutely key, and to connect with that feminine part of ourselves is is where you'll find great healing, great progress in in life to feel more present. So on the flip side, I think that that stoicism uh within us is um as as men very important. And I think sometimes we just need to figure out how to grin and bear it or to to find uh to build something uh in our lives that uh creates that strength that we need. I think it's it's the both. I think it it's not one. And it as you say, it's easy to get caught up in vulnerability and I think some call it toxic vulnerability, where you just uh you're pouring your heart out all the time, and sometimes you know that can really uh be unhelpful, I think. And and um actually it's like okay, well, what can we do about this?

SPEAKER_03 24:19

Um there's a very faint line between self-care and self-obsession, you know. So, you know, if it you know, and boundaries too, of course, be an essential part of my discipline of self-care is is having boundaries and saying what's okay for me and what's not okay for me. Um but what I've had to teach myself is actually sometimes and often my family's needs must come for before me. And as long as uh my fire is stoked, I can take real I can I take a real sense of achievement from that. You know, it's just it's not me first. Yeah you know amazing.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Relationships is such an important part of you know the the inner work, um I I think and you know that in terms of showing up for others, I think that um owning our own shit and not getting caught up in victimhood too much and the drama the drama triangle, I don't know if you're familiar with that, but getting caught up in there is just no help to anyone. It doesn't help you, doesn't help others. So just that idea, I've had a wonderful teacher over the last few years, a chap called Bodie Aldridge, and um I've learned so much about our our makeup and you know, physically, emotionally, spiritually, and that idea of just owning everything rather than being caught in the victim mental state, it's actually I created this. I create absolutely everything, and how am I gonna choose to respond?

SPEAKER_02 25:51

Yeah, because these are my choices, these are the consequences of my choices.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

The consequence of my choices, and we always have choice, right? So um in each moment when we're triggered or tired or upset, you know, to to build that self-awareness to go, okay, I'm noticing this within me. How am I gonna respond? You know, that that is the magic of this work. It's all about coming from that full cup and being like, okay, this is happening. I'm feeling a bit angry. How am I going to respond? What what's going to be helpful right now if I'm having a fallout with the missus or the kids are winding me up? What do they need? What have I created? That's been a game changer for me.

SPEAKER_05 26:31

Yeah, well, this this is this couldn't have come, this couldn't be any more apt, really. I mean, Ross and I had a call about an hour ago just to catch up, and I absolutely offloaded uh onto him about an argument that me and Sophie had had about the daftest of things. Um, and um, yeah, uh, I think the best thing that I can do after this pod is call Sophie and say, I've just had a therapy session with a guy called Tim and Ross, and I'm thinking about things in a different way now. So thanks for that. It's a ding ding. Um listen, we we we will get back onto family, we'll get back onto um the the uh Campwell and and icebreakers, but it would be great to put a little bit of um understanding about who you are into the pod, Tim. So, like your other life, uh as I as I'm gonna call it, which was um the one before now, your corporate life, maybe you were in advertising. But tell us a little bit about that, London, Hong Kong.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Yeah, um I after uni, I went to London for a year and uh worked in advertising and it was a lot of fun. I had a lot of fun, and um it was very surreal growing up on the farm, being at uni, you know. I felt very free and myself. Um uni was just such, yeah. I wouldn't say it was the best prep for the real world, but um I had a lot of fun and I met my now wife, which I'm very grateful for. Um, but uh that move to London, it made me realise that my nervous system wasn't quite ready for the city. Um I think it was probably part of you know my my childhood, but uh I found it extremely overwhelming. And um, whilst I was successful, you know, I I um I ticked all the boxes, I was offered great jobs in um in advertising in London with the agency I was with. It was MNC Saatchi actually, which is an amazing agency, you know. I could have could have gone back there, but uh something about it just didn't feel right. So actually I went back to uni to finish my course after that, and something about that experience in London, and London's an incredible city, right? Uh you know, world leading on so many levels, but uh yeah, it it was a lesson for me. I was I was a bit wary because I was starting to get more anxious in my adult years. I was um really stuck in my head, a bit of a prisoner of my own mind in many ways. And I think London really added to the noise and um put a lot of fear into me about my the future of my life. I thought, God, you know, I kept being pulled indoors and into onto screens, whereas I just want to be outside, right? And uh so after uni, I I live with a a mate from um he was from Hong Kong and he said, Oh, come and join me out in Hong Kong, you know, you'll love it. We'll just we'll have a week uh together and you can search for a job and and we go to the sevens, the rugby sevens, and I thought sounds epic. And uh so I went out there and we got absolutely plastered um as you do at that age, and made a complete fool of myself for a lot of the week, um, but managed to get a job uh at the at the back of it. His mum, despite all of the ridiculous outfits and things we were taking to the sevens, she she saw uh the potential, I guess, in me to to be in her team in a in a a wine distribution company in Hong Kong. And uh she said, We've got a vacancy. If you're serious, I think you'd you'd be a good fit. And so I went out there. I'd always loved traveling Asia, and I managed to persuade my girlfriend, now wife, to come out with me, and it was the the most uh enjoyable few years. Um we both worked hard, we played hard, and I think had we not had the West Country to come back to, um, we'd have probably been out there for longer and maybe Australia or wherever. It was a really great lifestyle. Um, but we were starting to think about family, and in my heart, I knew that that wasn't the life that I wanted to live. It was starting to, you know, it eats away at you subconsciously. It's something just didn't feel quite right, and I I loved it. I felt really valued, I felt loved. It was, they were just incredible people out there. I had a great network, we were socially full. It was it was an incredible experience, but we felt that home was calling, the West Country was calling, and my wife's also from Somerset, so we committed to leaving that career path, which was progressing nicely, you know. I I got offered an even better job, even, you know, um what you know, one of the senior positions in the company just before I'd um before we left, you know, I'd already b booked tickets home. Uh so it was yeah, it was hard, but it felt like the right move because it takes a lot of courage, right, to step out of the uh, you know, the the comfortable uh and the the trodden path and do something that feels more true. And you know, the world of being an entrepreneur, it takes great, you know, great courage. And um I don't know if it was a great idea for my mental health, but it it's certainly the right path eventually, and I'm grateful for it now. But um it it was certainly a shock to the system. And whilst Hong Kong it felt a bit calmer, I felt a bit more myself compared to London, uh coming back home to the West Country felt right. So also setting up my own business, it opened up a um a little more anxieties, ironically. Um despite my my main purpose being about reconnecting people with with nature and uh and themselves, uh it it was actually another layer of uh responsibility running your own business. I don't know what if if you guys uh have felt the same, but it it's there's just so many spinning plates. So um it's taken me many years to to manage that balance as well.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

So when was that that you returned?

SPEAKER_05 33:04

So 2013 we came back so what 13 years ago now and so w Sorry, w what I was gonna say, one of our questions was, you know, th the cliche of the city boy who escapes to the countryside, but i i in truth you were never the city boy.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Yeah, I uh it wasn't yeah, it felt like I was something about Emperor's Emperor's clothes. It didn't they didn't fit and um square peg, round hole, that sort of thing. It I was on paper, it was all looking good, and my mum couldn't quite believe me um while I was returning home because I was doing so well, you know. But uh there was something calling me home and I had this this mission and this vision within me that I was gonna create something at home. And it's it's it's not been easy, but it it's I'm absolutely um chuffed that I did commit to it, and I'm really proud of what we've created now, and it's it's been a roller coaster, but you know, that that's life and that's the entrepreneurial journey as well. Um but uh yeah, it wasn't easy.

SPEAKER_03 34:18

No, and you know, you've used the the word courage two or three times, and I think it's really fundamental. What what I'm hearing is uh you know that you've been instilled with a cr a real st a real set of great set of values, you know, from your your from your origin story. Uh you know, you took the plunge in London, you did the discernment and and and felt that it wasn't for you. You know, you had a you had the courage to take a uh a different season in Hong Kong and then after you'd enjoyed yourself you felt it was time to return home. Really a lot to be said for that. It's really really something. I and I'm really excited to to hear about I don't want to hijack it, Pietro, but I'm really excited now to hear about um Campwell and and icebreakers.

SPEAKER_05 35:03

Yeah. Yeah, because um I I mean w your details were passed on to me by Simon, Simon and Aldi, who's um who knew we were doing this podcast and said that it might you might be a good guest to have on. And actually, weirdly, that week as I was walking down Conham River in Bristol, I saw a load of men getting into the lake, uh getting into the river. I was like, oh, I wonder, I wonder if that's what I think it is. Um and yeah, sure, it it it what it is. It was a load of men getting together, doing something uncomfortable or difficult, uh, and you know, and just being together. So it'd be really interesting to understand what came first, icebreakers or campwell?

SPEAKER_00 35:46

Yeah, it was it was campwell. Um, and to touch on what Ross just said about courage, it it reminded me about a chat that I had with my nan before she passed away, actually. Um and I was I was curious about my papi, grandad, um how he was so successful in farming. And he's he said that he was always willing to stick his neck out. And I'll never forget that. And I think that was the thing about him, he was always willing to get over the comfort zone, get out of the comfort zone and and and test things out, and that's something I think we've probably inherited, myself and my family, and you know, you've just got to be willing to to test things out, and um yeah, he was one of the first in the country, I think, to have a combine harvester, for example.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

You know, that's great.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

You know, I love one of the first in this in the southwest. And you know, I think in this age of innovation and tech, you know, you you've got to be open to what's coming and and consider what's what's next, maybe, and and go with your gut. But and in terms of being courageous, I I felt one of the the bravest things I think we did at Campwell in the early days, and it was probably oh, I think it was 2020 when we decided to do a male-only retreat day, which we call mankind. Um that we'd been running myself and my friend Aaron, who's one of the co-founders of Icebreakers, we were running retreats um on the farm at the camp, at Camp Well Farm, and um we noticed it was mainly women turning up. And uh and that's fine, right? We've we've got nothing against the ladies, uh, and they're far more natural at this stuff, let's face it. Um getting like the fire and talking and and getting more in the body, into their hearts, and it's it's very inspiring. Though we we lost a mutual friend uh who took his life. He was a farming family friend. Uh, I'd lost a a mate in Hong Kong, a rugby mate, and I was also having battles with anxiety myself. I was really stuck in my own head, and I just sensed that the feeling was amongst men there was a lot of suffering. And I knew friends of friends that had taken their life, and and then there was an unspoken feeling of, yeah, there's a lot of men out there that are just really unhappy, they're feeling lonely, confused, and I think that still is the case now. Um but uh I remember speaking to Aaron, and we decided that we needed to create a men's only space, and that was October 2020, and we got men around the fire and the brave men that showed up. There was such a mix, right? Um different walks of life, different stages of their well-being journey. And um, we had a sharing, a talking circle. We we held in quite a sort of uh a respectful and traditional way with like the talking stick idea, and um that was powerful in itself, just being in a men-only space, getting stuff off your chest. Um that was very powerful. And then we had various workshops. Aaron's a Qi Gong instructor, so he led us in some breath work just to calm the nervous system and some movement as well, just to get us out of those busy heads. And um, we also went for a walk. We went for a walk down into the valley through the camp. Um, and we went for a dip in the river, and it was a crisp, cold October afternoon, and you could see, you know, the you could see your breath in the air, and it was uh it was really special. And we you could see the guys' faces. We did some some sort of warming up before we got in the water. Um But it was it was there was a stillness and a quietness to it, and then when everyone got out, the energy shift was phenomenal. You could see in everyone's faces the release, you know, that's the the power of cold water, and doing it with other men, this idea of doing things, hard things with other men, um was was really something that we needed to bottle up. And uh you could see it in the in the faces of these men, the the weight and the the pressure had lifted a little bit, and uh the feedback was after that day is that we needed to keep it going. And you know, this is early days of COVID and lockdown, right? So there were challenges, we had to pair people up, um, but we committed to this weekly ritual of dipping in the river together, and we went between um two locations near Bath on the River Avon, and uh it just kept building. And um that was the beginning of icebreakers. Um so creating that men-only space and that ritual of connection in nature. Um and the cold water was a was a huge part of it, I think, because it was it was something where men that didn't want to talk openly about their feelings, they could they could let the water do the work. You can wash away all sorts in cold water. It's it's such a hack. Like if you've got a busy market.

SPEAKER_03 41:15

I'm just thinking it's impossible not to be present uh to to be present in the cold cold water. You know, if you're not in the now, if you're in your head, you get in that water, you're in the now.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Totally, and still now if I'm feeling a bit busy in the head or whatever, and I've forgotten a cold dip, uh it it's it just never fails to amaze me how how it can clear the head and and change the energy. I saw a lovely quote yesterday around this idea of oh, I'll probably butcher it now, but something like the um there is when a man dips in the river, there's never the same man or never the same river. Something along those lines, you know. You you it can be so transformative. And I think the same to be said for for sauna as well, you know, you can come out just feeling like a different person, and um it's important because just gets you out of that busy mind, which is such a common thing for us, us men, and um yeah, to be able to bring that energy then back back home with you or into your work and just to feel more present, right? It's like it's such a great medicine.

SPEAKER_05 42:26

Why do why do you think it's why do you think it's important to like you you you say that you're not there to fix? Why why are men so obsessed with fixing? Um I'm I I'm try I um personally I'm trying really, really hard. Um but it you know I I I'm constantly trying to fix whenever Sophie's got a got got an issue or a problem. I can't I really struggle to just sit and listen. I mean my job is literally I work in production in advertising, so um my job is literally to find solutions to things all the time. Um so that that being able to just sit there and listen, like her good uh female friends can do, you know. Perhaps my role is not their role, sure, but you know, finding a way to be a bit better at that, um, how do we do that?

SPEAKER_00 43:23

Yeah, it's a great question, and it's something that I've had to learn over the years because it is it's a really strong masculine instinct to want to fix. Because we we like to fix, we like to problem solve, and yeah, I can handle that, step back, you know. It's like but what we're doing is is we're we're taking the power from others by doing so. Because really what we want to do is support others in finding their own solutions. That's the most sustainable way. So I've noticed and what I've learnt is that we we need to ask ask for the request. Ask for um the question to be uh to be helping. Um and particularly with our partners with the feminine in our lives, often they they just want to be heard and um it's the same, you know, it's like a therapeutic thing, right? It's it's important to for the for connection is to be heard and seen. And if we we try and jump in and fix, we'll be accused of not listening. And it's not about fixing the problem, it's about you know being heard so often. So, you know, and work, as you say, it's such a comfortable space for us men, because it it's our job to fix and problem solve and you know it's like a comfort zone for us because we feel like we're a value then. Yeah actually so often if we're gonna connect, which is so important for you know whether it's our partners or our kids or our team, often it's just listening and not trying to fix everyone's problems, you know, and and that difference between trying to rescue someone and then gently coach them or or or just listen and and um they can find their own answers that way. And in my journey is uh to becoming a coach, I realize that just asking a good question now and then or just listening is enough and often what's needed.

SPEAKER_03 45:27

You're absolutely right. You know, just taking the power from someone by answering their question, by answering their problem. It's not where the therapeutic value lies. And, you know, and and and pen person-centered therapy, it really is just about you know, trying to to be with someone uh on on their journey and asking the right questions. But I'd like to put a different perspective on it too. Uh and I this I'm not speaking for either of you, but from my own work, the reason often why in the past I've wanted to fix a solution for my partner is because I just haven't wanted to deal with it. I've just I haven't wanted to listen. I haven't felt I've been intolerant. You know, that's really ugly and uncomfortable, but that's the truth, you know. To sit with that, you know, there's been a lack of compassion, there's been a lack of tolerance. It's like, oh well, why don't you just do that? You know, it's so plain to me. I'm gonna tell you what to do. And actually there's no pluralism in that, and there's no um there's no compassion.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

Yeah, that's it. And it there's there's good intent there. Um you you know, we're trying to support, and yeah, I I quickly learn through working with my coach that you know you shouldn't try and fix your wife. Good luck with that. Um you'll meet resistance there, but um you can support them. But the the key is to to self-love first. You know, if you sort yourself out, that idea of um settled bodies, settle bodies. No, if we if we can come from a calm present state, then as as men, we're we're holding the space for women to really flow and to find their sense of safety, which is what they really desire from us as men. So if we can find that within ourselves, then others will feel it. That that ripple effect of that energy is so powerful, whether it's our partners, our kids, our team, if we can create that sense of presence, then the rest will just flow.

SPEAKER_03 47:30

Agreed. And I've got to affirm you, you know, you you you've already touched on it and it's wonderful. Um in my notes here, I've I've written, you know, in 2020 you started icebreakers and uh it's really deeply pressing. Uh it's very much part of the zeitgeist now, men's spaces. You know, it's far less less toxic to talk about kind of male-only uh uh conversations. But you know, you in 2020 you're very much an early adopter. Uh and I hear you know you talk about the loss of a couple of friends. Where did was it just an intuitive thing? Did you did you just get the sense that there was a real need there and and that's what brought you forward or yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Like I said, it took courage because it it it remains an uncomfortable space. There's no doubt about it. You know, getting men to to tap into this part of themselves, there's there's always a bit of uh attention there. But once they once they're honest and open and speak their truth, wow, what a release and what a difference it can make. You know, I've just um I've sensed it and I'm I feel the love from those that have been on on the journey with us through icebreakers or retreats, you know, the the gratitude for having that space available for men, um, where you can talk about things other than you know the everyday and the sport and so on. And you know, I love the pub and and all of my mates that don't feel they need to tap into the the inner world, but for me it it's just that next level of connection if you're open to it, it it it really can transform your life. And you know, there I think there's interestingly, there's most people that turn up to icebreakers generally have some sort of mental challenge going on. Um I think we all have enough mental chatter, you know, that itty bitty shitty committee going on um to to want to quieten it and just by being out in nature with other men is is enough sometimes. But uh that that sense of community was a huge one as well. I think this loneliness epidemic that we're seeing and experiencing, I think we're we're stuck on our screens too much. That that's not a replacement for real relationships with men, with uh with our community and and family. So by providing that that space for men to gather that's free of charge, you know, we're now a charity. Our ambition is to make it like the park run of men's well-being, mental health, whatever. Um I realise that word community is is key to this. It's about gathering good, like-minded men, and it's a space where you can share your shit, you can you can just dip in cold water and have a laugh. It's it's it's a very special sacred practice, and it's it's that ritual, I think. It's that ongoing ritual of self-care that's quite unique about it, because uh you can go on a a retreat and you can have a spa day and feel a lot more yourself after those, but it's it's how you keep that keep that going, that sustainable difference. And I think that that little treat, that little uh bit of self-care each week can really make a difference to to men, and and that's what we're seeing.

SPEAKER_03 50:56

And how does the charity recruit participants? You m you mentioned uh you know people from different backgrounds.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Yeah, it's I think mainly through word of mouth. The Bath chapter's been going since 2020. We do use social media. It's all volunteer-led, which has its challenges, but um, yeah, a lot through social media. We've had some good press. We've been on the BBC West News, and that got us uh another wave of interest. But yeah, word of mouth has been the most powerful, and now we're starting to learn other channels like um you know posters and um and flyering, but uh, you know, well positioned um posters uh can be really helpful. But you know, it's word of mouth is always going to be your best friend, the most organic with this sort of thing, and uh having the right people signpost around local communities because we're we've now got I think six active chapters around the UK, and um that's Bath, Bristol, uh Brighton, North London, uh Bude in Devon, and then um Findhorn River Fynhorn in Scotland. Beautiful Findhorn.

SPEAKER_05 52:14

I was there a couple of months ago, and my my ex-girlfriend is in Findhorn, we're we're still friends, and uh it's a beautiful part of the world. I love that place, man.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

I look forward to visiting at some point, and I I just love how I love how there's these communities emerging, and we we've got a few other chapters in the pipeline, and um there's just yeah, I'm really excited by what it can do because I know personally, particularly from my rugby background, uh for me it's been like my my rugby team as well. It's a bunch of guys that I can get together with and have a laugh and look after myself and have some um some deeper connections with as well. So um, and you know, maybe we'll go on like our equivalent of rugby tours in the future, and we we do go and visit each chapter, and there's an amazing sense of community where we share pictures from our holidays and the guys are starting to organise trips. So a load of different chapters went on a trip to River Finhorn recently, they did a weekend, like a camp weekend, and all these things are organically emerging, and it's it's a brilliant thing to to witness. And um things like saunas and walks, um and yeah, all sorts of things are emerging, and fire sharing circles are a part of it as well. It's uh yeah, it's just a beautiful thing to see.

SPEAKER_03 53:37

I've got to ask because it it it did strike me, you know. I see that um, you know, it will always it is free and it will always be free, and I think that's really commendable. I think you don't want price at price point to be a barrier uh to entry. You know, as someone from a a kind of different background. Um you know, I don't like I say, I don't have experience of of farming growing up uh or being on the land. You know, I don't have experience of going on rugby tours. Do you get people from from maybe a like a lower socioeconomic background involved?

SPEAKER_00 54:12

Yeah, we've we have had a real um variety and mix. Um I think we'd we'd love it to be a bit more diverse, but the reality is of a lot of the places that we're dipping, it's generally quite white and middle class. And seems to be that the cold water dipping thing is quite a white middle class thing to um to. So I think without, you know, overanalysing the situation, you know, that's the reality and a reflection of the demographic that we're dealing with. So um I know that we are getting more diverse and um other parts of society that are sometimes underserved. Um, and we're we're trying to consider how we can be more more present and available for those less uh lesser served parts of the community. But you know, it's it's a challenge. And you know, as I say, we're we're volunteer run, so we're all trying to shoehorn this into busy lives, and the the sense of fulfillment is incredible. So, you know, it's not like we resent it, it's it has its moments, but uh the the sense of connection and and brotherhood is in enormous.

SPEAKER_03 55:25

Such a great initiative, you know, very much so. I you know I have uh family that live in Moswell Hill, so you know I've already got one eye on your Parliament Hill Lido um weekly dip. And uh certainly next time I'm up in Inverness, you know, nipa cross to Findhorn. Can't wait.

SPEAKER_00 55:44

Brilliant, I love that idea. And yeah, I think you know, if if men can have that knowledge of being connected to the wider icebreakers concept, is that they can go on tour or whatever you want to call it and go and join the the Scottish brothers for a dip in the river and you know know that there's gonna be some good like-minded men there.

SPEAKER_03 56:04

And um and they're always it's one of the virtues of twelve steps, actually. It's one of the virtues of twelve step meetings. Wherever you are in the world, you can just go and you know there's gonna be a a kind of a brew and a kind of welcoming face at the door. Brilliant. Yeah, so I see that. I see that as uh as a a really um really important part of what you do.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

Thank you. Yeah, we're very proud.

SPEAKER_05 56:30

So we well we've we've we've covered icebreakers, and just to I guess to to to wrap up, I you know Campwell is a retreat uh from what I can uh make out. Where where can people find Campwell and and and um tell us why Campwell?

SPEAKER_00 56:48

Um Campwell, yeah, is is a is a place in nature that you can let go. And the modern world is it's a busy place. It's I think we've gone beyond the human pace. So it's remembering how to s really slow down and and switch off, and that in itself is a real gift. And I think if you can share that with the people that you love or you care about, um beautiful things can be created in that space. And we provide stays and days, whether it's for families, couples, or mostly groups, like retreats. We also have teams coming for a day, and we can facilitate and curate experiences, but they're generally themed around that sense of connection with nature, with themselves, with old crafts, and having fun, feeling feeling full of love and joy, and yeah, just reconnecting with what really matters. Um, and we're based near Bath in the West Country on my family farm. We have got another site uh north of Bath, which is another special spot in the woods. And another feature that's emerged in the last couple of years is our woodfired sauna and um and cold plungers, which obviously um which is my happy place. It's a place to reset. And I've I feel like you can have that transformation that we were talking about within an hour, which is pretty special uh by going to the sauna and coal plunge. And and in there you find a sense of community as well. I love how it's a space where you can have conversation that you wouldn't normally have with a stranger, someone in your community, that you know, the pubs they're they're doing their best to be of service, right? But um to have random, unusual conversation with people in your community is really special and it's often a different conversation as well. So um the sauna is also a big part of what we're we're proud of right now, and I'm really excited by you know what's to come. I think uh people are really needing this and desiring it more and more. So um, yeah, and our website is campwell.co.uk It's great to be spirit-led like that.

SPEAKER_03 59:13

And you know, I hear I hear you sort of imply that you know the blocks of well, I'm wondering if there are any kind of prohibitions to attending Campwell, you know, uh right. Do you have any rules around tech or alcohol?

SPEAKER_00 59:28

It's a really good question, and it's something we've toyed with for years. Um like this this week, for example, we had an interesting group from Nike, ACG, and they brought 20 influencers and journalists, and I led a welcome circle and uh I did a bit of breath work and with them, and I said how normally we'd ask you to have a digital detox right now, but I knew that their job was to be there and and you know, take pictures and film every other thing that they were doing in this new product range. So that wasn't part of it, so they all laughed at that idea, but um the intention is there. And I said, Well, if you even if you can just find your your moments out in the woods for to to create that sense of space and peace for a little bit between you know the doing, that's that's enough. And and the same if that there are groups that sometimes we get the occasional hem party, for example, but they they tend to be a different type of hem party. We call them more like Zen Party. But they'll they'll often do a bit of yoga, they'll um and then they'll get through an immense amount of prosecco in the evening, but you know, we're not to judge. It's a space that that we encourage people to sit round the fire and and find more natural ways of being. But sometimes for people, if if they're most comfortable with a beer in hand round the fire, then that's okay too. Um there are there is a time and a place to have some rules like icebreakers retreats now before we sort of allowed a beer and a glass of wine with supper. But now, because we're aware of guys having their issues with alcohol, we're now alcohol-free for the for the camps that we have with icebreakers because that feels like the right thing to do. And fortunately, non-alcoholic beers are pretty good these days, so um that's aided that. Um, but yeah, it I think it's important to have the boundaries in place depending on on the the intention of the event.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:37

I think you know, I coming back, you know, coming back to the reference to to courage, uh there's something like you know, people just don't know what they're missing. They just don't know. You know, this thing about you know, the acronym for um uh for great outdoors. You know, uh great outdoors is another acronym for God, just being uh you know, in uh uh at one with nature. And um we've talked about this in the podcast before, but it breaks my heart when I see kids coming out of school and you can see them um blanketing their anxiety by looking at the phone, you know, as as they're walking along the street because they feel so vulnerable. And uh it's almost like they need to be nudged. I mean that in the advertising sense, they need to be nudged out of uh getting rid of their phones, you know, which is one of my kind of my loads of uh schools up here are banning phones and you know the social media ban will hopefully come through too. But I just you know, I I I read uh an essay on it not so long ago, this thing about you know mobile phones now will be seen as you know uh the uh having the same damage as cigarettes in 15 years. 100% the same sort of health, the same sort of health.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:58

And the same and the same excuses are being made by the people that are trying to keep us on them that the the cigarette companies were making, yeah, you know, the same excuses, it's almost identical. And it's for me, it's an absolute no-brainer, you know. Like perhaps there's a conversation about the nuance of the the the detail in in the smartphone ban, but ultimately as a parent being given a tool to say it's illegal, just like alcohol, just like cigarettes, yeah. Um, yeah, of course some people are gonna get around that, as we did when we were younger. I was drinking when I was 14. But ultimately, it's in there, and you know, I the morning of the announcement of the smartphone ban, I had my laptop open and a wolf came down and I had BBC News um uh open on my browser. And I my my son's nine, and we the the conversation is you know, the narrative in a house has been about smartphones and about why you've not got one and you know what we think as parents and what we want for you and all that kind of stuff. And I pointed at the screen and I went, look, Wilf, like it's nine, right? They're gonna ban smartphones, and he went, Yes. And I was like, brilliant. Okay, so that is that's the narrative that we've built, hopefully, in our house. In his head, he thinks it's a good thing because you know they they're they they they steal, they have stolen childhoods. It is uh awful what we've what has happened.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:32

And they they continue to steal adult resilience. Yeah. Um and I I'd love to just just before we finish, uh, you know, I'd love to hear about because you you touched on your anxiety two or three times, Tim. I'd love to hear about your relationship with your anxiety now.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:49

Yeah, thank you. And you know, on the on the tech world, I think that um that really resonates. You know, that they are um it's another thing that we carry around with us that just sends us into distraction. And they are like these little weapons of mass distraction, aren't they? I love that expression. But um they are so addictive and that little dopamine kick that we're obsessed with, uh I think they're I'd I use this lightly, but um I think they are quite evil, actually. Um we really need to unlearn and relearn how to live a life without them. And I I think you know the tech world is aware of that, and I think there's a lot of change coming, which is so needed and so exciting. Um I'm quite an optimist. Um so let's see. Yeah. But um I think the in terms of my own presence and anxiety now, I feel I'm very incredibly grateful to say that I've liberated myself enormously from it. And it sends shivers down my spine just thinking about it, because it's been tiring. anyone with anxiety or has had much anxiety in their life, it is exhausting. So to have broken sleep uh so often, now I can sleep properly, my enjoyment of the everyday and my presence for m for myself, for my family, for my wife, my enjoyment of work, just that going from f a fear-based experience of life to more love and trust has been incredible. And I must give thanks to my my coach and mentor Bodie for that. It's um he's provided the space for us men to gather and um and he works with mainly business men, but um being amongst a load of men on that journey together um and he's got all these different models and frameworks but it's the commitment to the meditation practice I think that has really settled my nervous system. So I I pretty much always do that in the morning before I wake up and I go through my inner world I go I notice the thinking mind and I just let the thoughts pass. Go into my feeling heart name any emotions that that might be present and just notice them not trying to fix them or judge them. And that often just softens them and then I go in go to my knowing gut as well. So these are the three main energy centers that we we're working with and that knowing gut space has given me that level of trust that I needed that everything's going to be alright. I think before I was so stuck up here in my mind that you go into fear and control. So often I love that acronym with fear that false evidence appearing real you know I was just stuck there and when I got into my heart and my gut I I found that you know I realized I was valuable I was loved I was everything was going to be fine and the the transformation in the last 18 months two years like life just feels totally different. I feel like I'm living a different life and I'm incredibly grateful. But you look I I slip up I uh you know I'm human I still get moments where I get caught up and misunderstand things I get triggered but you know I th I think that's that's life unfortunately um but I'm mostly yeah my default is more present now than distracted and anxious which is just yeah a pleasure you mentioned Bodhi earlier um just tell me his name again we'll put a link to his work in the show notes yeah so it's bo Bodhi Aldridge and yeah and the business um that we work with is true freedom leadership so it's like an international group um and we host retreats together as well so amazing there's also I know icebreaker camps that we do usually a couple of times a year and Camp World do a number of other events as well and then true freedom do various online programs and and retreats as well so there's lots of spinning plates but I just love them all. I feel very lucky I could probably do with a few less plates at some point but um I don't yeah I don't want to let go of any of them yet.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:14

I feel like when you're in flow and you're looking after yourself you can just lean into that stuff and you become more productive. And it's great to hear someone describe themselves as an opt an optimist.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:33

Yeah we've got well we've got one final question and and that is one that we ask to all our guests and uh that is what what is exciting you right now yeah well I think on that thread the um the optimism for I feel very privileged that I'm already in the space and have been for years of connecting people with nature and to community in themselves I think there's in the years to come it's gonna get a bit messy I think with the lights of AI emerging and I think there's going to be a period where we we struggle and I think we're gonna need more nature and community than ever before. So I'd I'm excited by the potential of reconnecting people with what matters during a um a challenging time. But I also feel that it will liberate us. I I like to think that after the the messy period of um what's to come I like to think that we will be freed of all of the the bullshit that we've created in the modern world and we will have a lot more choice and hopefully that choice looks like um being outside more being with people around a fire um cooking and eating together enjoying real human talent and performance creative arts sporting prowess whatever it might be but um yeah I really like to think that this is a really exciting period we're living through right now and uh we just need to remember our true nature uh going through it amen for that Ross what are you excited about?

SPEAKER_05 1:11:11

So uh just back from Iona uh and I've spent some time with an amazing uh inspired man that I know a guy that's really helped me uh over the last few years his name's Pojo Tuma he's a theologian and poet and he's just about to start uh a tenured professorship at Yale um next year uh or next uh academic term so he was over doing some workshops in Iona on presence in place and he gifted me a book I just brought up here um because I feel like I really need uh I'm really keen on developing my prayer life it's a book called Landmarks an Ignatian journey um really looking forward to getting dug into that my morning practice has is has been the become the cornerstone of uh of my life and um I'm looking forward to just taking some wisdom from somewhere else how about you well I'm sorry I can't I can't see England I'm excited about England and Mexico uh and I'm excited about all these people to coming together in the weirdest time uh at 1am and um I'm excited to connect with my Mexican friend who will be in the Azteca um with his father who has been who has had his health problems um but um I spoke to him the other week actually and he said you know he's he's been feeling quite down on himself over the past year or so because of his health problems his dad and he said look dad I've got these tickets you've got a year to get to pick yourself up get yourself into a good space for your grandchildren for me you know we don't know how long is left we don't know you know what the future looks like but let's pick yourself up and and see if we can enjoy these moments together when the World Cup arrives in Mexico and uh and I I thought I thought I was I thought I was really apt certainly given what we're talking about today and I saw a picture he sent me a picture of him in the Azteca for the last game um and um and he was there with his dad and his sons his boys um and I just thought yeah that's pretty cool sometimes we just gotta say come on pick yourself up it's time dust yourself off let's let's do it um so yeah I'm in I'm excited about England Mexico um and all that that'll bring um Tim has been an absolutely amazing chat it might even be my favorite one yet um thank you so much for joining us I know it took us a while to get over the line but um really really appreciate it and your words and your wisdom thank you