BoD Episode 20: Robby Lutfy

Robby Lutfy (he/him) Sometimes an actor. Sometimes a producer. Mostly a director. Always an artist. He directs theatre at places like Cygnet Theatre, Marin Theatre Company, Milwaukee Repertory Theater, The John F Kennedy Center, and Burning Coal, etc. He was awarded the 2019 Craig Noel Award for Director of the Year. He was the 2012-2013 William R. Kenan, Jr. Directing Fellow at The John F. Kennedy Center as well as the 2014-2015 National New Play Network Producer-in-Residence at Marin Theatre. 

He directed 20 shows and produced 39 others at Cygnet Theatre, where he was the Associate Artistic Director for seven seasons. At Cygnet, he was the head of new play development, where he commissioned 20 plays by writers including Miranda Rose Hall, Herbert Siguenza, Nathan Alan Davis, and Leah Nanako Winkler. This past year, he directed Dunsinane by David Greig at Marin Theatre Company, Witch by Jen Silverman at Charlotte Conservatory Theatre, God of Carnage by Yasmina Reza at Backyard Renaissance, and the world premieres of Sharon by Keiko Green and The Little Fellow by Kate Hamill at Cygnet. He acted in August: Osage County with Backyard Renaissance. 

He has taught classes at San Diego State University, Grossmont College, UNCSA, and UCSD. Robby is a graduate of the directing program under Gerald Freedman at the University of North Carolina School of the Arts. His work, Jean F: ritualizing a stranger, was exhibited at Goodyear Arts this summer, where he was an artist in residence. Up next: a residency with Arts on Site and The Rensing Center. Currently producing the 25th National Showcase of New Plays with NNPN @robby_the_artist

This monthly gathering invites directors and other theatre makers to come together, share experiences, and seek advice in a supportive community. There is often an isolating nature to directing, and this new space aims to foster connection and collaboration. The Board of Directors is an opportunity to set aside time each month to be alongside members of the Directing community all over the world. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:43

There's a particular kind of director who isn't just interested in making good work, but in being a good person in the room while they make it. Robbie Lutfey is one of those directors. I've had the chance to get to know Robbie over the past couple of years at the University of North Carolina School of the Arts, both in the classroom and in conversation. And what's always struck me is how deeply he leads with the question of why. Not just why this play or why this moment, but why we gather, why we tell stories, and how we show up for each other in the process. In this conversation, we talk about that, about the idea that every play holds a central question, something alive at its core, and that the director's job is to uncover it and build a world around it. But more than that, we talk about responsibility, about creating the conditions where artists can do their best work, and about the kind of room you build if you actually care about the people inside it. Robbie speaks beautifully about collaboration, about wanting to be challenged and even haunted by the people he works with, and about theater as a space where we can explore who we are with honesty and without fear. This is a conversation about directing, yes, but more than that, it's about how to lead with purpose, with curiosity, and with care. This is my conversation with Robbie Ludfey. So, Robbie, we have mostly met in hallways and outside of rehearsal rooms, but what has stuck with me and what you have kind of shared with me is that you're someone who clearly leads with why as well. When you approach a piece, what's the question that gets you out of bed?

SPEAKER_00 2:32

My God, you're starting with the heavy hitter question. Well, I first want to say, like, just to say that I was I was always curious about you because this the our the students talk so highly of you. And they're the ones who I initially was like pushing them with this question of like, what is your mission statement as an artist? And they said, Oh, Adam asks us that all the time. And I was like, I gotta meet this Adam. I think that, you know, when I studied directing, Gerald Friedman, my my mentor, he really instilled in us that you can find your heart between the pages of any script. And I think that that's true. And I also think that there are certain plays that you're yeah, you're more drawn to. I think that like every play has a sleeping spore of a question at the center and the heart of it. And I think that our job as an interpreter is to like define it, put walls around it, and lead with it. And I think for me, the types of plays I'm drawn to are plays that I feel like need me. I like plays that have impossible stage directions. I like plays that are lead with metaphor, lead with something like if I read a stage direction like she gives birth hanging from a moon over the Atlantic Ocean, I go, This is for me. You know, like this is I'm always drawn to theater that is requiring something of my imagination. If I walk into a theater space and I see crown molding and doorknobs, I kind of get let down. I go, like, I hope it, I hope it collapses. I hope it transforms, you know?

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

And another part for me is like, you know, it's not just the material. Obviously, the material is vital because that's what you're living with, that's what you is infiltrating your subconscious, that's the what you're wrestling with every single day. But it's also the people are really huge for me, especially the older I get that if I'm going to, speaking of subconscious, if I'm going to inevitably allow these artists to infiltrate my subconscious and my dream life, I want to be obsessed. I want to be haunted by them. I want to be, I want to be someone who um can be challenged by them, encourage, and encourage them. And and as a director, it's such a gift to be responsible for the conditions in which artists can make their best work. And so I always lead with or with artists, I always am like, how do you work best? Can you give me an example of when you were feel like you were making your best work? Um and how can how can not we recreate it, but what are those conditions that are the same? And what's the Venn diagram from all of these collaborators that we meet? Uh yeah, I hope that answers some of that.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

Yeah, well, it it it it it opens up so many more questions because there's so many things you said in there that's exactly where I wanted to take this. When I first met you, it's gonna sound so like you know, little kid at elementary school. I was like, I want to I want to make friends with that guy. I want to be like, we're gonna be friends. But because I think there's so much everything you just said is just like yes, yes, yes. Like it was just ticking off all the boxes in my head of like this is how I lead a room, this is how I approach a project, this is how I want to be an artist in the world. You know, the the working with actors of saying, like, well who are you? How do you take in information? Because I'm not gonna like make everybody do this one thing because it doesn't make any sense, because you're an individual and you're an individual, and we have to do this thing as a collaborative group. I want to make theater that looks like theater, and if it doesn't look like theater, I feel a little bit of not failure, but I'm just gonna say the word. I feel a little bit like I have failed my commission, I failed what I was supposed to do. I want to I want theater that looks that would look ridiculous on film. Had you ever, because I don't know if at the time when you were here you had to do any kind of film things, was there ever any interest in working in film or TV or doing that?

SPEAKER_00 6:39

I mean, when you say you're a theater director, obviously many people will assume you make films. Um, for you know, and I I I wish, I totally wish that there was that interest. I love film and TV, and I have so many, especially actors and playwrights, who work in both mediums. Uh, and I've assisted some incredible directors who have made the leap to directing film and TV. And um, but no, for me, I wish, I think my mother probably was like, Robbie, you could make a lot more money if you did that. Um, but actually she's very supportive of my theater uh obsession. But like the the I I I haven't um I love rehearsals. I love I love um I love being in a rehearsal and making I love sitting on an opening night of a show that I've directed and having this moment of I'm not sure who came up with that. I know that I edited it and finessed it, but was that from the stage manager? Was that from the assistant director? Was that from the actor? Was that from, you know, like it's such a beautiful alchemy if you can create, you know, because really we're making like model societal systems in the room, right? We're trying to make something that like doesn't exist all the time in the real world. And and I think that I think that I don't know, I love film and TV. I've never really had that desire. Maybe one day, never say never, but I love live theater, like you said. I love I love that theater is um poetry. I love that theater is something we go to listen to with people around us. And like you, I I love theater that reminds me that I'm in the space of theater, literally that space of that building. Yeah. That the the the ensemble and director have thought about the actual space, and that I'm needed somehow. And that doesn't necessarily mean that I have to be interacted with as an audience, but like you're asking me to use my imagination to paint the walls and fill in the gaps, and um and I think that um you know, there is a I'm not punching up, not down, but there is a there is a great, you know, uh Tracy Letz had this great speech when he won the uh Tony Award where he said, We're the ones who say it to their faces. And I it kind of struck me as odd because I'm like, well, maybe just the first few rows where the light bounces, you know? Because often I'm like, I want more saying it to your faces. I want more uh implication as an audience for why we're telling this story now in this room with this group of people. And it's hard. I mean, I have a lot of um, I spent a lot of time in communities working as associate artistic directors or producer. And what I really, really loved about that is you're building this long conversation with the community and you're listening to that community. You know, I took a job in San Diego, and the first thing I did was I stole this idea from a book I read, but I sent an email out to to all the artists that had ever worked at the company, and I said, I'm gonna be at the theater this day from these hours. I want to sit and I want to listen to what what what one love this theater and what you think we can do better. And what can I do better as a new person who just moved to this town? And really at the end of it, you had like 15 seasons of programming and and ideas and um and I could really be of service without being like, here's what I think. It's like, no, you listen and they tell you.

SPEAKER_03 10:28

Um okay, so this is great. An artist, hearing an artist, you know, people who are listening to the podcast are are mostly young artists as well, or you know, early career directors. And it's important for them to know that like wherever you are in the season of your career, that like you're still hungry, but you don't have maybe you don't have the articulation of it yet, or you're searching for something like that is important to know. It's like when I started the when I started the podcast and when I started the monthly meetings, I said it is just as important for us to share our failings as it is our successes, because where one, where do we learn? But also at the same time, if like saying, like, you know, if my my hero director has a shit show, then maybe my shit show doesn't feel so shitty. You know, like we're all we're all searching for something, we're all trying something, and we're all also defining and redefining our mission statement as well. But I do want to dig further into where does that impulse come from? Like background story, origin story, Robbie. Like, can you identify like growing up? You know, I'll use myself as an example. Like, I was an only child and I moved all over the place. I I was at a different elementary school like every single you know year or so. And so for me, community was something that I had to constantly kind of build or rebuild. And you know, this gypsy life, if I could use that term that we live in, is like if you are not an artistic director somewhere living with a community, then you are freelancing and you are having to kind of build that community every single time. So that's a big part of what I do. Can you identify where that impulse comes from for you?

SPEAKER_00 12:13

Yeah, I mean, I I was really, really blessed as a kid. I had I had a lot of encouragement and people who believed in me and people who said, I see you. And um, I take that now that I'm um teaching more and uh have the honor of being a mentor, I think I I it's a very it's a very serious thing for me because I had people come alongside me my whole life. I mean, when I was a kid, it was it was mostly my aunt, and and she was a ballerina and she took me to museums and plays, and um I I was an artist, and so my parents put me in art classes. And really, it wasn't until high school that I had an English teacher who said, Robbie, when you read Shakespeare out loud in class, you you really have a knack for this. You should, you should, you should go to this competition and you should do this that moment where the dorky guy who got picked on was suddenly got like people up laughing at me and like applauding. You know, there was maybe some sort of like ego involved at first for the need for validation, but I I don't know. I had a lot of people encourage me and and that stayed through my whole life. I mean, every every big step I have made as an artist has been because someone pointed at me and said, I see you. I see what you're trying to do. I mean, it's the beautiful um the beginning of the seagull after after uh Constantine feels like his play is a failure. Someone comes up and says, I see what you're trying to do, right? And I I think that like every artist needs that. Every artist needs to be validated. I think often I think bitterness can kill art. And I and I I there are times in my life where I'm like struggling and I feel like I'm in a place where I'm like, I can't get in the rooms I want to be in, or I can't get the job, or I can't, and I have to be really vigilant about making sure that I am not getting bitter, or I am not, you know, very often it's like we go to see art and it's like we come with these opinions that are razor blades, and we we're coming to destroy rather than to uplift, and we're coming with a criticism rather than just to enjoy the experience. And I've often asked myself, I'm like, you're watching a play and you're like, how am I gonna talk about this afterwards? Because I know the people I I know that people I'm with are like super sophisticated and they're gonna have all of these opinions, and I just sort of enjoyed this experience, you know. And and since when does like enjoying something become the scary opinion? Theater was always such a safe space for um, it was a safe space for for me to explore all facets of myself and see other people exploring those things. And what's sad is that there have been spaces where I have seen the very thing that drew me to theater, which was that this feeling of safety um and pluralism, you know, like there's diversity and there is unity, and there is, you know, we're we're we're exploring all of these like really deep, scary emotions together with technique, you know? And and it's in these spaces sometimes where I see when we start attacking each other or it it be it starts to feel unsafe because of those in power. I've often thought the irony of artistic leaders who allow power to consume them is have they ever read a Shakespeare play? Because every single message in every single Shakespeare play is about how power corrupts.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

And it's not all across the it's not everywhere, but I have been in spaces where it's extra tragic to me because of the vulnerability it takes to be an actor, to be a r an athlete of your heart. Um and you have to be in a place that feels really safe for you to do that.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

When you were a student here, because you mentioned Gerald Freeman, like what a amazing teacher that must have been to be with him.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

But you did you come in as a director or was it was the program then like acting and then you could switch to directing with Yeah, I studied um I studied acting first at different schools um and then I transferred in.

SPEAKER_03 16:48

Okay. As a director or as a as a director.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

As a director.

SPEAKER_03 16:52

What did you think directing was when you transferred in and what did you leave knowing or thinking or kind of going away with? Like what it's it's one of those funny things. I I I talk to people about this being an undergraduate directing program, and a lot of people go, like, do people even know what directing is at that age? Granted, no, of course, what high school program is letting somebody direct in there? What did you think directing was when you transferred in?

SPEAKER_00 17:23

I'm sure I thought I knew a lot about directing. You know, I I uh what did I think directing was? I th I still feel like I wrestle with the same things I wrestled with when I was 21 years old as a director. I still feel you know, like the director is responsible for the whole. The director is the first and last audience member. I think that I I think that probably looking back at some of the, you know, my old notebooks or the work I was trying to make, I probably put a lot of responsibility on myself. I think that I thought that the director was responsible for putting their fingerprints on everything. And um and I really had no idea how to analyze a play at that point. Or how to talk to designers, you know. I feel like I really learned a lot of craft at the school. Uh and then I think I learned a lot uh from assistant directing when I graduated. I learned a hell of a lot about how different directors, you know, there's a spectrum, I think. There are the directors who, you know, on a bad day it feels like they're just babysitting the room.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

But like there is an impulse of like, if I give a really clear direction, then I'm denying the room the ability to listen as an ensemble, right? And I'm like allow I'm I'm making the ceiling a little low for possibility. And yet we need some, you know, um, we need a director to say I know sometimes. And then the opposite spectrum, which I've assisted many of these directors who choreograph essentially, say it's my interpretation of the work that is the most important, as if it's like this uh uh author sort of model. And you know, there's there's this great story I remember, um, of this uh this ensemble of this symphony um at La Scala. And they had this amazing conductor, Clyde Byrne, and he he was do you know this story?

SPEAKER_02 19:35

Yeah, yeah. Great story. Tell it, please.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Yeah, he was like, uh I think maybe I saw a TED talk to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Yes, I know exactly what it is. I show I show it to I show it to the directors, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

Oh my god, this is brilliant. See, we're like we're we we're yes connected, and but it's this idea that like, you know, they he after 10 years brought brought them enormous success and um prominence and wealth, you know, money and and uh but after 10 years, he never once treated them like an artist, he only treated them like an instrument. All you know, 700 of the employees, the musicians, said you have to resign. Because I I think I think early on I learned from directors who were contemporaries of Ely Kazan and Bobby Lewis, and and there was a way of working that I when I graduated, I I I remember directing a play, and it was it was a great production, I thought. And it ended up being the theater's highest-selling show. If that means anything, it definitely means something to a producer. And and I didn't get asked back. And I called and I'm the production manager and I had a phone call and we talked, and he said, Well, Robbie, it was a great show, but you were so demanding on the staff that we, you know, we all live and work together, and it was just it was too, it was too much. And I I started to realize, like, you know, if truth is in the a circle, it's it's there's other avenues, there's other ways of working. And I think that like the beauty now of um being with young actors and young directors at the school is that the cliche is that the teacher learns more, but it's true. I mean, they're really challenging my assumptions about what the fundamental building blocks of how we make. Like, you know, why are you sitting behind a table? You know, even that, oh, that that that gives a false, like this, this authority. Well, I need somewhere to write something down, but like maybe the table is, you know, maybe I need to be standing more. Maybe, I mean, like little things like that. I mean, that's a silly one, but like I think it's like it's so good to go back to the foundations of this craft because directing is not. I mean, what we do is an is is an infant art form if we're comparing it to what the actor does or the writer does, right?

SPEAKER_03 22:05

Um I go back and forth on this. Um, I know fundamentally where I what I believe, but at the same time, also like, yes, I'm working with these altour directors, you know, being in the rooms with them, assisting them sometimes, but observing them, you know, these altour directors that thankfully we've we've moved past a behavior that is acceptable in the room. But this older generation that creates these magnificent magnificent. Magnum Opus pieces treated their artists, their community with disdain sometimes. And I, you know, as I get older, I start to think of going like, you know, can we maintain that level of greatness, that level of rigor without being that dictator, without being that, that, that bully, that brute. I don't think that they are mutually uh, I don't think that they're they are connected, but I'm not entirely sure that they're mutually exclusive either. And it's something that every single day when I when I go into my rehearsal rooms as well, going like, well, what do these people need today? How can I help them get that thing today? But I also know that I am far softer than any one of my teachers would have ever allowed uh me to be. And I don't know what that means. I don't I don't I don't know how to handle that, and I don't know how to answer that question.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Um Do you think the work suffers though? Because you've you've you're more of a Pollyanna now, I guess, or something?

SPEAKER_03 23:36

I don't know. I don't know because I because I only know my work as my work. I don't know my work as a dictator. I think that maybe some organizations or institutions are might see it as, you know, it has not it hasn't reached a level that maybe they want it to reach, but I also want to work with people again. And I'm not and I'm not making decisions based off of employment of going like, oh, I hope I get asked back, but I'm making decisions based off of is this person gonna do a show again? Or have I just killed a dream in them? Ary Manushkin and Theatre du Soleil is like a like a pinnacle for me. That they live together, they are family. Of course there are fights, of course they hate each other, of course they're they're French, they throw things and you know, they have loud arguments, but at the same time, everyone's there and you can see that they love making this and that they love each other as a family loves each other, and that when you walk, you're walking through the dressing room as they're putting on their makeup to go see a show, as the children come out and feed you tea and cookies, as Ari Minushkin like shakes your hand as you walk into the show or walk out of the show, that's a feeling that I feel is not a dictatorial feeling, it's not a bullying feeling, is not a that work is not made that way. And yet it has such craft, it has such precision, it has such love that it is recognized as some of the best theater on the planet. And I don't know, I don't I don't have the balance of that yet, but it is something something I am searching for. I don't know if it if my work suffers from that or not, but I do constantly question if it does. Yeah, I don't know. Do you think that assistant directing is valuable? I mean, of course, you you've obviously mentioned that it is valuable. At what point does it stop being valuable?

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Yeah, I mean, I I did not know how to talk to designers. Um, I did not um I think uh for me it was really beneficial to see that there are many different ways of leading a room and talking to actors. And um I think I really paid attention in tech. You know, I did not, you know, now the things I would say I know the most about are the things I didn't know anything about at first, like lighting design or sound. I mean, there are things I I was so clueless about, and now I feel like I have the strongest opinions about those things. Um I think, yeah, there was some like learning by, oh, I'm not sure I want to do that or do it like that, you know. But I I always, you know, um, I always try and go, don't judge the process until the end. And and once when you're inside it, just take it, take it for what it is as an assistant director. And, you know, I always paid attention to the middle part of the process too, because um, even now, I think it might be a lifelong journey for me. I feel like I'm a really good beginner and I'm a really good finisher, and it's this middle part of like the day same. What you can't what what you can't see on this podcast is Adam raising his hands to the roof. Um but like it, it's a delicate, it's a delicate, it's a delicate thing to go like um by solidifying, by keeping that, which we could always throw away again, but like if we build that domino in and shape it, we are denying other possibilities by doing it, but it gives us a lot of freedom with that. And I think, you know, two years ago, I was uh I acted again, and I hadn't acted in a while. And it was a director who I trusted, and he said, Robbie, I can't find someone I trust for this role. I really want you to play it. Would you do it? And I did it, and one of the big lessons I learned in acting again was one, um, how vulnerable it is to be on the team and not the coach, right? How, how, um, how you show up differently. You know, as a director, we're creating the conditions for God to enter the room. The actor channels God and goes, oh my God, you know, I don't know how, like what just happened, you know, like electricity just happened between two actors on stage, right? And I think as an audience member, that's why I always love to see. And I think what what it what it did teach me sometimes was this um I think this notion of embrace the I don't know as a director. Yes, I do think obviously we have to be comfortable with saying that. But then there's always the second thing that has to be said, which is we will lean in together, we will find it together, and not keep pushing it down to the next rehearsal. We're gonna keep challenging this, we're gonna keep coming back to this. And and I think as a as an actor, I realized, you know, how a director shows up is yes, you have to be resourced. Yes, you have to make sure you've had your rest and you have to uh have all the conversations with all the designers to make sure everyone is on the same canvas and working towards a mutual goal. But the actor really shows up for like their body as an athlete, their body, their heart, their mind, their their spirit has to be ready. And you're looking for a director to put a wall up. There were so many times I was like, I'm tired, I don't, I want you to say, I want, I like that, Robbie. Keep that. Do it, do that, you know. So there were it was revealing to me to be like sometimes your fingerprints on a scene. I mean, I'm directing a farce right now, and there has to be a lot of fingerprints at times, you know, because of the time signature of the writing. But I think that was a good lesson for me, a good memory of like, oh yeah, that's it is is useful to put yourself back in those shoes, I think for me. And I also find I work with a lot of new playwrights. The the and it's really a marriage, you know. You were saying, like, uh getting your like directing is really isolated. That's why you started this podcast. And and I agree. And I think that's probably why when you were saying that, I was like, man, I that's probably why I work I love working with playwrights, because I have a buddy. I have a buddy that I can go to the bar after with and have a conversation with. And that marriage I find not intentionally, but I've looked back at like the marriages that have worked best between me and a playwright have been playwrights who were who were actors or are still an actor. Because I I really do think that there is um, you know, you know, Peter Brook, what Peter Brook uh his his beautiful definition of theater, right? It's like I can take in any empty space and call it a bare stage. A man walks across the empty space and uh while someone else is while someone else is watching, right? So you have like those three elements. You have the space, the actor, the audience. And I think that like um I think it is easy for us to get caught up in our own um self-importance in what we do sometimes as a director uh or any you know field in the arts. And really, like for for us, we're all in service of the actor. I don't believe in hierarchy in the theater, but if there is one, the actor's probably at the center of it. You know, we're we're here for the actor, we're here to see the actor tell say those words on that stage under those lights. When I when I think about the the theater that has affected me the most, I don't necessarily think about the pretty stage pictures that are hanging in the lobby. I think about the messiness and naked nerve-ending acting that happens between those two actors that sacrifice something and put it on the altar of the stage that night, and you're left to pick up those pieces and go, Oh my god. Wow. You know, I and don't get me wrong, I still love a priest stage picture. Of course. You know, and there are directors I am like, oh my god, that you know, there are certain directors I like, I I would just I I look and I'm like, how did you come up with that? How did you that's like you know, the the the sculptural, the operatic in theater sometimes. I'm I mean I love it, but um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:00

What do you what do you recognize as your strength as a director? Like, so we talk about like there are those directors that make these beautiful pictures that we we go home whistling the set sometimes, and there are there are actors or there are directors that are, you know. Evo van Hova is an example for me of like somebody that like I don't know how he asks actors to do what he does. Um, I don't know how he gets them to say yes to that. What do you recognize as your strength as a director? What do you like? I can always rely on this, I can lean on this, and then conversely, this is a weakness that I continue to work on.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

So much of what you've said, I just like I'm like really resonating with. Yeah. Um well, first off, I think Ivo is like a like brilliant, and I think that there is that there is he's like he can distill a play to the the essential, right? The perfect bite of a meal. Yeah, you know, and it's like it's like I'm over here making meat and potatoes or like making the you know, and he's just like just the spoonful, you know. But like, you know, what is Matisse Matisse said um composition as a result of the canvas you're covering. Yeah, and every play is a different canvas, yeah. Not only the play, every room with those actors on that particular day is a different canvas. And I think, you know, he does such a good job of distilling, distill, distill, distill, distill. And um, um, and I think what am I good at? I don't know. I I think that when if you were to ask my collaborators that I work with a lot, they would probably say that I'm a I'm a good listener. They would probably say that um um every process I push the bar higher to make, you know, no one starts out a play thinking it's gonna be their fifth best show they've ever worked on. They think this is gonna be the best work I've ever made. So what are the conditions to make that happen? You know? And then maybe once your like, you know, opening happens, then you can look back and be like self-evaluate and be like, yeah, well, I could have done that differently, or I wish that was. Um I would say, um, I don't know. I I would like to think that people feel um that people feel seen, heard, valued. They feel like they can do daring, bold work. Um, that I am never, you know, I am never going to belittle anything. Um, I I think that like that in order to unlock her intuition, we have to be obviously willing to fail and fail and fail and fail and fail. And that sort of resiliency it takes as the for the artist to be able to do that. I think um the director, yes, you're responsible for the whole, but you know, I have ADD. Like, you know, I I think that like, you know, uh, I'd a therapist once who would diagnose me and she was like, You've probably got a lot of success and in the arts because like, you know, you you have like a I don't think in details. I think in like big picture, and then the director hires the people that are interested in why is it that texture of uh of of fabric? And why is it in, you know, and then those conversations are fascinating to me, right? But I need people that like my favorite note, I worked with this one incredible, incredible scenic designer for a while named Jungga. And and I remember I was doing all this research, and the play was set in Australia, and I was doing all this research, and it was a black and white, very sculptural set and painterly, like a Turner painting in black and white, and and and the only color was red. It was just a little like hints of red on the set. And I was doing all this research. I said, I had all these justifications for why I thought maybe we should consider orange. And she sent me back an email after my like, you know, like five-paragraph essay. And it was one sentence and it was, it will be red. Oh my God. I called her and I said, Thank you. Thank you. Oh my God. Like, I sometimes as a director need someone to go, this is what it is, and this is why I believe it's that way. I, you know, there's been many times when like directors will be like, oh, that actor's hard to work with, be careful. And then I find it the completely opposite experience. I go, why do you think that that actor's hard to work with? Because they have a strong point of view and they're gonna spar with you. Like I love, I love an artist who's willing to fight for a point of view. Yeah. As long as it's rooted in the text, right? To have that conversation about the text and unpacking the text and justifying decisions in the text. And how do we set the deck against ourselves as an artist? How do we make it more difficult for us to get through this play? How do we make a bigger arc? You know, I think those conversations of like conflict, right? And I think, you know, it's also what theater teaches, right? It's like what theater, what theater has always taught me is that, you know, we can thank a man named Thespis, I think, who who we at least attribute to the idea of dialogue. But like this idea that two people have a different point of view and they have an argument. And in the middle of that argument, something blossoms. And that is that truth only emerges at the conflict of ideas. And I think obviously, like, that's also democracy, right? But like it's theater, and and theater is the art form of democracy. But like I've always embraced that notion of as long as it's with love, as long as we are like, we can assume that like we're all working towards a mutual, mutual goal and that positive intent is here. Um, that I've always loved the actor, the designer with a strong point of view. And and and that that scenic designer was 100% correct. Oh my god, we got into tech. I was like, can you imagine if the color we had chosen was orange? It would have been horrible. Oh my god. Terrible. Thank God you fought for that.

SPEAKER_03 38:13

How wrong I was, how wrong I could have been. Thankfully, I didn't push my point of view too hard. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

I always say that too as like like like being wrong. I'm like, oh my God, we're always wrong. We're all we're all wrong. We all, you know, I tell my assistant directors or stage managers, I'm like, I'm like, this is a room where every idea matters. Like, say an idea. Here's the thing. If you think that you're, if you're afraid to say your idea to the actors because they're like, you know, in their 70s or very accomplished or whatever it may be, whatever the reason is, you can always write it down to me or whisper it to me, and I'll try it. And if it works, I'm gonna give you credit immediately. If it doesn't work, I won't say anything. I'll just pretend it was my idea because it doesn't matter to me. It really, I don't, I don't give a shit about trying to be right or or the best at or whatever. Like I'm in service of the play. I'm here to show up for the play and to tell the best version of that play. I do not care how we arrive at that.

SPEAKER_03 39:16

In my devise class, I introduced something that City Company used to do a lot, and it was somebody would say, Oh, I have an idea, and then immediately everybody else at the ensemble would go, Great, let's hear the idea. And you know, they make the shotgun sound because this the idea is that ideas are cheap. So throw it out there. We we believe that, you know, if I use this idea, then I don't get to use this idea later. It's like recycle ideas. There are a million ideas. There's a there's a bank in your head, you can go and withdraw ideas anytime. So if that idea doesn't work there, that's fantastic. And also, it's not the end of the world if the idea doesn't work. That ideas are cheap. I I came back from uh spring break, and uh I had given a note to an actor to work on, and when they came back and they did it, I was just like, oh, that's terrible. Where did you get that idea from? They said, Well, the you did. I was like, Well, don't listen to that guy. He's a horrible director. It's it's okay. It didn't work. We tried it out, it's it's fine. Move on. Let's let's let's do something else. And the same thing is just like, I want the best idea to win. Sometimes it's mine, usually it's not. It's an amalgamation of other people's ideas, and it is serving the play. So anybody, the stage, you're exactly right. The stage man at the sound designer, somebody walks in and goes, huh. I wonder what would happen if you did that. Great, we just stole it from you. We're gonna attribute you in the program as well, random passerby, custodian number two.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

I think that's important, is like the acknowledgement. Giving credit where credit is due, I think is so important. Because it it does doesn't happen all the time in the arts.

SPEAKER_03 40:48

You were talking, you were talking about democracy, and I'm reminded of I saw Oedipus, the Mark Strong Oedipus on Broadway over the Christmas break, and in the middle of it, they had a little, a very brief scene between Antigone and Creon. Beautiful scene, which I hope that the writer of the of the of the piece also decides to adapt this as well. But I also know that there's there are a lot of Antigonies happening right now. There's something about that, that argument, that argument of freedom versus safety that seems to be a binary choice that we seem to have in this country right now or in the world even. And I've never tackled that play, and I'm really starting to become very interested in it. Is there a play that has escaped you that you have been chasing for a while that you've been wanting to do, that you've not had an opportunity to do?

SPEAKER_00 41:37

Yes. I mean, for me, it's always about like uh playwrights, you know. Like I jump on a chance to der to direct certain playwrights. I I had never directed Tennessee Williams, and I'm grew up in the South, you know, and and um and it this last summer I was asked to direct Street Cry and Mesire, and I um his his his ability to to cre to to write ambiguity, to to write like not only is it like poetry in the same way that you feel like um Lorca is writing, but he can write it in a way that is like universal, uh still can feels contemporary, but also like the actor can make completely opposite choices and it the play still works. And I I've never worked on a play quite like that, where where the interpretation of of this actor's blanch can actually be that she's never had sex. And actually you could justify that in the script, right? Um uh so I think for me, like Lillian Hellman, Carol Churchill, um, I've never directed the Greeks. Um more contemporary playwrights, or there's certain there's certain playwrights that um I mean I I will, you know, she's one, she's one of my dearest friends, but Keiko Green, any play she writes, I'm always like, let me watch it, let me let me, you know, be a doula for a workshop of the play, like let me do anything to, you know, be in the room. Because I I think she does exactly what you've described at the beginning of this. She she writes theater. She writes really um theatrical experiences that demand something.

SPEAKER_03 43:19

Um so what do you what do you get what do you think that you get called in for? Like when somebody says, Oh, let's get Robbie to do this show, is that can you kind of pinpoint like there is a certain something that is inside that that's like, well, only Robbie can do that, which is why we're going to hire Robbie. We're gonna call him in to fly in from wherever to do this show, because only Robbie can do this show. What is that thing that you think that is? That's the kernel.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

I don't know. You know, it's hard. Like this, this question, like I don't remember if you I don't know if you remember, but last year you were teaching a class on like mission statement, and I like went to the class. I was like, I need to learn how to do I don't, I have never been good at this. I have never been good at this, like I've wrestled with that question. The irony is I've wrestled with it the longest. This question of what is the due north as an artist? And and I think that I have heard other people tell me, you know, they say that like, you know, Robbie is is uh he is his work is is is you know, he's not interested in anything literal. He's um I make work that is like really movement based or but I think that like everyone sort of says that. I mean, what does that even mean? You know, I don't know what that means. Like that I that I I think that like creating a vocabulary that is only ours is always interesting to me. Like that, like, you know, speaking of that production where it will be read, you know, like he has to climb a mountain in Australia at one point in the play, Uluru. And how do you do that? And the that sort of challenge is like, oh, we have this red bar across the stage. The entire p the entire climb is just him slowly like Tai Chi walking on this bar, you know, and that becomes a vocabulary. I think that like there's something beautiful about pieces that go, you know, when I wear these Ray-Ban glasses, I'm polonious. You know what I mean? Like it's like the we get the vocabulary immediately. And I think, I think, uh, I think that because of that, I've been able to be pretty scrappy and do things for not a lot of money, you know, like in terms of like, I don't need a big design budget sometimes to kind of like embrace what we have. I always go, like, what are the tools? What do we have? What's in the room? You know, many times what's in the room starts to inform the work. I I think that like what we're talking about, like creating the conditions to make all the ideas happen. And I think that really what we're also saying is like a director is an editor. Like, I want to just be an editor. You know, when actors, you know, for instance, these actors in Tartuffe right now, one day they were like working on this like big P like Lotsi, essentially, of movement that we were I had suggested. And they they they go, they were working on it and they said, Is it okay that we're doing this without you? And I go, Are you kidding me? Please. Oh my god, you're you're making my life so easy. I was like, you're you're you're polishing it. I don't have to do anything, you know. And guess what's been one of the most consistent things in that scene? What that what that because they rehearsed it and they did it themselves, you know? And I think speaking of Anne Bogor, I mean, I've loved all of her books. Actually, like she's probably a director prepares is you know it's a Bible. I had a I had someone, uh, an acting teacher gave me that book because he said, Robbie, you talk like a director. And my ego was like, No, I'm not a director. I want to act.

SPEAKER_03 46:47

You talked, uh, you talked before about um you've been in artistic leadership positions, you've been freelance directing. Why at that point in your life? And why this point in your life? What what do you think that to be very early on in a career, in an artistic position, and then to then come back into a freelance career? Do you want to go back into artistic leadership? Is this more exciting for you, more free and open to you? What are the differences between those two things and what are your takeaways from those two things?

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Well, I mean, I feel like I'm a a bit of an interesting um I'm asking myself that question. I mean, I love teaching college actor, acting and directing. I mean, there is something beautiful about that to spend, you know, eight hours a day just in the craft, and you're not concerned with the half million dollar budget that is, you know, the deadline for the thing getting built and the costumes getting stitched and getting butts and seats, you know. I I I there is something freeing because inevitably what happens often is like when you know that you have to deliver, is that you do go back on things that you know work. And it does the the exploration that can happen when you when you don't have that. You know, at the beginning of this, you talked about like we've all made shit work. Well, yeah, but like, isn't it interesting that in the theater, because of the amount of time and resources that it requires, we're not given permission the way a painter or a musician they can make shit every day. It's as a process.

unknown 48:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

You know, I remember reading this interview with Tony Kushner, and he said, like, the the question was, do you ever get writer's block? And he was like, No. It was like, and they're like, What's the inspiration come from? He goes, the inspiration comes from in stride. You know, we I find myself writing every day, and maybe I don't use any of it. But you get up in in in in he said inspiration is for amateurs. Yeah, right. What are you waiting for?

SPEAKER_01 49:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

And I think, I mean, to answer your question, I yeah, I I loved being an artistic leader. It got to a point where it was my entire personality. It became so consuming. Every meal was with a donor, right? It was like every and I think that like the art suffered, you know. I I feel like I had to ask myself, like, what is your art asking of you? And my art was really asking for me to slow down and to, you know, I've had my family go through some health issues the past few years, and and and there's been a lot of grief and struggle. And, you know, in the past, I would not have shown up in the same way because it was always about my career. It was always about, well, I gotta do this and it's a struggle, and you know, it's you don't know when the next job's coming, and blah, blah, blah. There's always a reason, right? And and and we and when you're on staff at a theater, it's like you're it comes, the show must go on because someone stays up until 2 a.m. to make sure it goes on. You know what I mean? Like, yeah like, and I was the guy, I was the person, you know? And so I just started to think about my priorities and being like, I want to be able to show up to that wedding. I want to be able to show up for my family, you know? And and um, and it's not something I want to sacrifice anymore. And I don't regret that at all. But it does put you in an interesting place of like, well, then what is how do you find a balance? And unfortunately, it's it's it's I don't have great examples of people who have really been able to find a really healthy balance. I think the younger generation does a better job of fighting for like that balance, which is beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 50:49

But then it goes back to my question that I had at the top, which is you know, is there a rigor and a discipline that is lost? And maybe it should be, that that we redefine what excellence is, we redefine what greatness is, that the form itself is still gonna be the form, how we do it, how much we do it. No, that you're a human first, not a not an artist machine. But at the same time, there's that there's that teacher voice in the back of my head that goes, Yeah. But if you just put two more hours in, if you just stayed up all night long with it, that's a hard voice to get rid of. That's a hard thing. I met Andre de Shields, amazing artist, who has had such an amazing late half of his career from having, you know, struggled for a while beforehand. And he said that theater is like helium in a balloon, it will take up all the empty space, and that we think of theater as a way of life, but he likes to think of theater as a way to life. And if you are just doing theater for theater people to do theater so that you can do more theater, then you're not living your life. And I think, yeah, I think you're right. The students, the young people, that they have a much better handle on their needs and their desires. And then our job is to give the technique and the discipline to move forward with that that they've got.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

I don't know. I'm just I'm sitting with that question. That's a good question to ask. And maybe it doesn't have to suffer, you know, like, you know, what is that phrase, work better, not harder, or whatever. I mean how like you know smarter. Work smarter than not hard. Smarter. That's right. Smarter. And also, like, what does the audience want? I mean, I remember I interviewed this guy. I I read about his work in a book called Rebuilding the Front Porch of America. And you tell us about this. I tracked it down.

SPEAKER_03 52:40

I tracked it down. Yeah, I'm I'm looking for it. I gotta I gotta find it.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

And that guy, that guy was just like, you know, he like opened this theater company in a rural part of uh, you know, northern Wisconsin, and he had professional actors with community members, the dentist, the doctor, the veterinarian, the everyone in the community, and working alongside each other. And I said to him, I said, Well, didn't the work suffer? And he and he said, Of course. Of course. Of course they they're not trained actors, of course it's not going to be as good. But my audience doesn't care. In fact, my audience prefers to see their community members alongside that Goodman Theater actor. Um, and I I think I I think about that a lot. I was like, what is, you know. And and and and and there have been times when I have questioned, like, you know, yes, the audience is vital in what we do. And sometimes I, you know, with reviews or criticism, I go, like, what is the show they wanted to see? Is always my question. It's like, would I have liked that show? And sometimes I'm like, oh yeah, you got me. That was a failure on my part. Or but like, I I I I I always in previews is my favorite thing. And people always like, Robbie, you why do you ask the audience all these questions? I'm like, I'm going around to the audience and being like, what did you see? What's not working?

SPEAKER_01 54:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:03

And as soon as they compliment me, I go, I that's not beneficial for me right now. I don't, I don't want to know, I want to know what what's not working, what's not making sense to you. Um, because we are doing it for them. And I I uh and I I and yet there are times when I go, I don't know if I care for whatever reason this time. For you know, for whatever reason that might be. Um there have been times when I go, they're not gonna fully get this, and I think I'm okay with that.

SPEAKER_03 54:42

And Bogart talks about having two people walk in the room with her every single time she's doing a show. She has Brecht on one shoulder and Gertrude Stein on the other shoulder.

SPEAKER_00 54:53

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 54:54

Do you have do you have an audience in mind when you're making the work? Do you have something?

SPEAKER_00 54:58

Totally, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:59

Who are they? What are their what are they made up of? Like who is your Bert Berthold Brecht and Gertrude Stein and like why them?

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Well, yeah, I think I think I think a lot about um well what's interesting is obviously there are those that those people have past that I, you know, I strive to be more like, right? Like the the Peter Brooks or Grotowski's or um um Brecht and uh I I and also I think that I I bring with me my ancestors, you know. I really I remember we was um working with a director and she would call on her ancestors to enter the room. And I think about like, you know, my my grandfather was was a painter, an oil painter, but he could never make a living doing it. And my other grandfather was an actor, and I didn't know he was an actor until I was studying acting in college, and my mother told me because I didn't know many stories about him. My aunt was a ballerina, and I think about like wow, Robbie. Like you get to do the thing that they've they always wanted to do, and what a privilege, what a gift to be able to like I I I just don't take it for granted. Anytime you get paid to do this, anytime you're given um the space to to make theater, I just I'm always just I'm like, damn, I'm yeah it's like I'm in awe of it. And and and you know, I worked with an actor recently and directing the show in Ohio, and you know, he was in his 70s and he had a long, incredible career on Broadway and in Vegas and everywhere. And the first day of rehearsal, he got, you know, he started crying and he said, he said, when I was younger and I started this, I always said to myself, this could be my last show because I don't know if I'm gonna get hired again. And we all think that, right? We don't know when the next one's coming. And he goes, but now it has a different resonance because of my age. It literally might be my last. And and and so every moment sort of matters differently. And I think that like anytime I go into a theater space, I go, everyone here has a story, and everyone here is standing on the shoulders of their ancestors and the people who taught them and the books they read about this dream that they have. Remember their names. Remember the box office staff members' names because their dream is is your dream. They're here because they have the same dream. And I think it's it's I have fired maybe two or three actors in my entire career, and it's always the most tragic, difficult thing to do. But I it's only had to happen because I did not know how to work with ego. And some I've assisted directors who really are good at it, and I'm like, that's the marquee actor. You're really good at like, but I don't know how to do it because I am only I I don't know how to deal with we have to be be kind to each other, we have to love each other, we have to, you know. Um, and and and it's it's yeah. So I always tell people in tech, I'm like, remember everyone here. They're not working for you. We're working together here. Every single person here has a story, and we're all storytellers.

SPEAKER_03 58:39

Back in the day when tech was called Hell Week and it was a lot of yelling and all that. Boy, how we've grown, hopefully, knock on wood. Yeah. Without being too philosophical, though I'm very happy to be philosophical, where do you see what is theater's place in society, or does it even have a place in society? Is it a is it a niche art form that we want to be more expansive, or do you feel it is you know, it is a cornerstone of democracy, as we said, you know, as democracy goes, so theater usually is one of the first things to go in a society as well. I'm thinking about AI. You know, recently with the war in Iran, like there's been questions of like, is this footage real? Is this person alive? Is this video? And I think we've started to cross the Rubicon of now we've entered a world where if I'm not seeing it live in front of me, I have no idea if I can take this at face value anymore. Does theater Does theater continue to struggle as it has continued to struggle and be this niche thing? Or is it gonna become a place of refuge, or is I'm am I just too hopeful about that? What is theater's place in society today, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 59:56

I'm gonna ramble, I guess. I'm gonna like first draft thought ramble. I just realized the enormity of the question I just asked you. You're lucky because you just like put the questions out and then you don't have to answer them. I would say, I would say, you know, the theaters, what is it, what is like you know, people have been saying theater's dying for thousands of years. We've always told stories. It's how we connect to each other. I can go to any random bar in this country and strike up a conversation. I can't talk about my politics. I can't talk about, you know, that I'm a I I make theater. I mean, I could, but like what's really gonna connect us is tell me a story about your dad. Tell me a story about what you did today, or I love basketball. Let's talk about basketball. You know, like let's let's tell stories about the teams that we love and and talk about catharsis, my god. Sports. There's a clear winner and a clear loser. There's a villain and there's a hero and there's black and white, you know, like, but like there is, you know, telling stories about our experience and what connects us is and then theater is is the the church for it. It's the place the that we can go together. And it's not just about syncopated heartbeats and stuff when we're in the space, it's not just that. It's that it is a place where we can be bold and say the things that don't have to be sold to the masses, right? It's like it's not theater, it's not like Anheuser Busch. It is the local microbrewery in your town. And when it is not that, when it tries to be the thing that is in San Diego, that story about the people in the upper west side apartment is going to resonate completely differently to them than it will the people in the upper side. And like, so the question is like, why are we telling that story? And what is that? You know, I think that like every community is so different, and you have to listen to your community. You have to be an artist for that community. And I think that like the artists I respect the most are the ones like Anna Devere Smith, who goes, like, you're an artist wherever you are. Tell those stories where you are now. Easier said than done. But like, you know, like that is, you know, our job. And and it's a hard, you know, it's you have to show up in an authentic way in order to do that and and not come across as elitist or talking down. Or and I think that's the danger of theater. I think when theater dies, it is because they're trying to mass market to something that they think should make money, or they're giving lip service to an idea that they feel like this is what's trendy and it's not authentic. And or when it becomes like a like you feel like a like a like a peasant, a peasant among gentry. I mean, I've I've felt like in so many lobbies and so many theaters in this country, I go, wow, I don't, you know, the Estee Lauder perfume and the the like, I don't know how to, I don't know, this isn't, I don't look like the a lot of these people. And so not that that's bad, because we've always, you know, Shakespeare, I mean, for everyone has had to write for, you know, I'm directing Tartuffe right now. The reason why we're still performing this play is because we still have to ask this question who has the ear of the king, right? And it's very similar to 1660s Paris. It's the now, but now it's Christian nationalists. And I think I think I think wrestling with these questions and getting able to like turn to the person next to you and starting a conversation and hopefully being facilitated in the conversation starter. I think that I think you know what's interesting to me is that like I've always thought that like the most fascinating rooms of art making to me are those rooms where the artists have such a collection of histories and diversity of points of view. And I've never quite understood the like, well, we have to tell it this way because that's the way it's always done. Because to me, like, better art is diverse art. You know, like literally just thinking about it from like, if I'm putting my producer hat on, it makes better art actually, if it's not homogeneous, if the artists are from diverse backgrounds and the conversation is more nuanced, the story becomes way more complex. And I think that like, but my point is like I feel like sometimes I wish theaters would stop pretending. I wish that theaters would just say, like, oh, we put out that anti-racist statement, but we don't actually believe it. We actually, we are just actually making theater for this community, period. And actually, that uh there are there's actually theaters that do that, that don't pretend. And I go, I don't want to work for you. But like put on you for keeping integrity. I mean, you you you, you know, it and I think that it's it's the times when theaters are trying too hard or they're trying to, it's not authentic. I also love this model of uh the first I heard of it was in when I was living in DC, it was a playwright center company um who had this model of every, I forget it was like every four years, there was a new leadership, new artistic director, new team of people would come in and out. And I think that that's important because I think often in the theater, it's that image, you know that painting of like um Saturn eating his kid, like it's like a lollipop. I think about that often of like in the theater, we devour the the next generation. We do, we, we, we exploit and we use those ideas without really compensating, and then they don't have a ladder to get in. They don't the elevator's not going back down and picking them up, you know? And people stay, and we see it right now with or the administration running this country. It's like these people stay in these positions and they're they're so rigid, right? That like they break when the win comes. There's no fluidity, there's no asking, like, and I think the beauty of what we saw during the pandemic was all of these people looking at the younger generation going, save us, get us online, what are we supposed to be doing? You know, because what happened at all these theaters, and this is gonna be as strong. Point of view from Robbie. What happened at all of these theaters is they completely furloughed their artistic staff, or they kept one of them, the artistic director who was making a lot of money, and they kept their marketing and their development. And you go, well, what are they marketing developing? Get us online. We got to make online theater, which isn't theater. It's like bad television or something. But like I was encouraging is I suddenly started looking to younger people for ideas. And I've always just been like, yeah. I mean, I remember teaching a directing class at San Diego State, and the directors were like, so not interested in any sort of formal, like downstage left is a strong position on stage. You know, like they were like, Robbie, we're gonna blindfold you. We're gonna put you, we're gonna do this in the fountain outside, and the audience is in the water, blindfolded, and it's a sound installation. And you go, hell yeah. Like absolutely, this is awesome. And I never would have thought of this, you know? Yeah. Break it. I mean, that's like I just saw, I just saw the um I love that show Red, John Logan's play. I just saw a production last night of it. And the beautiful lesson of that play is is is Mark is I love Mark Rothko, but Mark Rothko destroyed the cubist. And Mark Rothko is being destroyed by the pop artist in that play. And at the very end of the play, what he learns from his mentee is you have to go out and destroy me. Take everything you've learned and destroy it. And I think that that is just the beauty of teaching, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:15

I say this all the time as like, you know, because cause it because, you know, as you've said, like they are mentioning my name or they're saying, Oh, I hear Adam's voice. It's like, yeah, but I need you to knock me off my pedestal as soon as you get out of here.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:26

Oh my god, I hate that shit. I hate the deification ever in a room. I'm like, please don't do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:32

It makes me deeply uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:34

Have have that voice in the back of your head, but also argue with that voice and knock me off my pedestal and go and do your own thing, and then come back years later and then shout in my face, and we'll be best friends. It'll be great. That's yeah. Um toward the end of the podcast, I always ask this question, and this is this is from a student who asked this uh question in the hallway in between a devised piece, and it was deceptively deceptively difficult uh in its simplicity, but it it it really kind of floored me and it stuck with me. Emma Hart asked me, What's a show that changed who I am as a person? Not that I saw a show and I I really liked it and I became a you know a really good artist or whatever, or I stole something, but like there was Adam before this show and there was Adam after the show, and they were different. Can you think of something that changed you as a human?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:33

Well, first off, that deaf, like I was who was Adams before this show and who was Adam's after the show? I remember teaching a high school class and teaching them about like dramatic conflict and the arc, Aristotle's at least our cup of play. And one of the students goes, Oh, so like all theater is it's like those moments in your life where you have an event where you remember who you were before the event and who you were after the event, because it completely changed you. And I go, Yes, the simplest definition. That's perfect. Yes. I mean, the first actually what's interesting is the first show that comes to mind is a show I saw. I saw the brother sister plays at Steppenwolf that Tina Landau directed, and Kate Todd Friedman was in.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:12

Yeah, Brother Size.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:14

Yeah. And I sat over two days and watched these three plays, and I think that what changed was just like she created a vocabulary, or they create I don't know who's responsible. A entire world was created with no props, no set, no costume changes, nothing. It was just actors telling a story, and I was so moved and riveted. And I can have I have vivid memories of images that I saw in my head of a car shop or them singing in the oil-stained garage floor or whatever. None of that was there, but I painted it in my imagination. I just was like, less is more. I mean, I think that was the lesson of like less is more. And also, like, look at that brushstroke. I mean, that was completely new. And I think that as a young person, that really changed a lot of how I thought about storytelling. And it was also entertaining. And I think that like that's something we often forget about. It's like we're also entertainers. You know, like, you know, someone said to me once, like, um, the thing about theater as an art form is it's as a storytelling art form, is it's not a book that you can put down and have a like a month-long relationship with. It's not a TV show you can pause, it's not a movie where you can eat popcorn. It's like you have to compete with a full bladder, right? Like you're competing with like you have to be as in more interesting than the need to pee. You know, like there is something, there's something beautiful about that idea of like, yeah, there is a forwarding. There is a like this this scene happens and it has to make this scene happen. And yeah, we have to be entertaining in some way, intellectually, or whatever that means to you, to keep us really engaged.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:57

Present, being present with it. Yeah. Yeah. I can't, I can't, I can't leave it. Because if I because if it is good theater, as you as you alluded to at the beginning, it needs me to be here. And if I'm not here, it is not completed and it will all fall apart.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:15

God, I wish there was more theater like that. Her production, Tina Landau's production of Steppenwolf, is in like top ten things I've ever seen in my entire life. And it was you go to the Steppenwolf stage and it's just completely bare. It's just an empty stage. And then a trapdoor opens from the floor, and the cast walks out dressed in period clothing, and they pull up what was essentially black tape over white tape, and they just make the ground plan of the house. And you could you could see everybody in the audience just like watch the house being built. It was stunning, and immediately tears were in my eyes, and it was that way for the next two and a half hours. Yeah. Steppenwolf and Tina are there's something, something truly magical they've done there. Who do you wish we knew more about? Who do you wish that those of us who are listening to the podcast, if we saw their name, we saw this director, we saw this person in a wherever to whatever town we were at, we'd be like, oh, I remember Robbie. Tell me about them. I should go see them because I've not heard this name or I've not experienced this person's work. It's not about the best stuff, it's just who do you wish got more attention, more work, more fans, more more views, more audience enjoying their work like you enjoy their work.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:34

I mean my mind first goes to like you know, there are certain directors where I'm like, if I see their name on something, I'm like excited, I get excited when I see Rebecca Taishman or Shauna Cooper or um uh I get a Sarah Benson. But like I mean truly, like the real answer to that is like anyone who's in their 20s, you know, like I'm like there's something about like I think that like younger people, like like I said earlier, like I was an assistant director forever, and it was really hard. I had to, you know, if I didn't have people believe in me and and give me a chance, you know, to direct a play, because directing a play is expensive, you know, and it's like, you know, or it takes a lot of time and and you got and space and people, you know, even if it's free and it's in your house. But like, and I would say, like young people, like any, any, you know, I've had girl and incredible assistant directors who have become my boss. In that moment, when that happens, you're like, oh my god, this is this is it. This is this is the ecosystem I want, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:42

So I would say Hannah Mead, Hannah Mead, she lives in San Diego, she's an incredible, maybe the smartest director, period. I have ever been in a room. Her dramaturgical mind is incredible. She should be given more opportunities. Keon Klein Shilton is is a was another assistant director of mine, now is an associate artistic director at diversionary theater. I think Keon is probably the most sensitive director I've ever shared a room with. I mean, their like empathy and and and and and heart muscles for for process and and artists, I think that they should have more opportunities. And um, I mean, yeah, I don't know. It's great. I love the students' work. I go see everything they do here because I'm just like, you know, Mina, who's getting ready to graduate, and Lily who's getting ready to graduate. I've seen both of their work and I've been like really amazed at how at their handle of tone and style and and their vulnerability that shows up in the work. Um Yeah. Attention to detail and let allowing it to be messy. I think that like I love theater that's a little bit clunky and messy and and gritty and I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:03

I talk about this often on the podcast. One of the best things I've seen since I've been here was a piece that Lily did in uh a basement. They did a velveteen rabbit in a basement.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:13

I've seen these photos, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:15

Next to next to a washing machine. And it was so rough in the in the kind of like, you know, rough theater, Peter Brook kind of way, but it was so necessary and important, and it was just beautiful. Of all the amazing things I've seen in my life, that yeah, that velveteen rabbit was like, keep doing that, Lily. Keep doing that, you'll be okay. Like maybe the institutions, you know, aren't aren't uh prepared for it, but I think if I think theater's gonna be fine if you just if you're just doing that, and you can get some people in a basement, that'd be fine. Brabi, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Like I said, second I met you, I was like, you know, man crush, uh gonna have this guy be a friend, and being able to be in hallways with you. And when when whenever you do pop into my class, what you're able to share has been fantastic. And I hope that uh we can go get that beer sometime soon or hang out a little bit after after I've opened and you've opened and everything is settled a little bit. It's been an absolute pleasure getting to know you even more on the podcast today. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. If this episode gave you any insight, inspiration, or even just made you smile, please subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts for more conversations like this. And if you're looking for guidance with a creative challenge, or want to advance a dream of your own, we'd love to help. Visit Board of Directors.world. The Board of Directors is a global constellation of theater directors dedicated to building community, sharing knowledge, and transforming the role of the director in the 21st century. We convene and curate a fellowship that fosters mentorship, artistic inquiry, and collective care, transcending borders and institutions and traditions. Until then, take care of yourself and take care of each other.