BoD Episode 17: Chong Tze Chien

Tze Chien is a core member of The Finger Players and an award-winning playwright and director. He is the recipient of the Singapore Dramatist Award and multiple The Straits Times Life! Theatre Awards, with his play Oiwa: The Ghost of Yotsuya notably sweeping the awards, including Production of the Year and Best Director, in its year of presentation. His plays have been staged internationally, including in Singapore, the UK, Budapest, Taiwan, and Japan. His published collections with The Necessary Stage and Epigram Books feature critically acclaimed works such as Charged and PIE. In 2015, Charged was named by The Business Times as one of the top ten plays of all time in Singapore. Other notable works include Turn By Turn We Turn, Poop!, Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, and The Book of Living and Dying. He has also written for films and television, with credits on Singapore networks such as Channel 5, OKTO/Arts Central, and Vasantham. In recognition of his contributions to the arts, he was awarded the Young Artist Award by the National Arts Council in 2006.

On a national level, Tze Chien has held key creative leadership roles across major cultural events. He was the Creative Director of Singapore Pools’ float and performance at Chingay Parade in 2007 and 2008, Co-conceptualist and Writer for National Day Parade 2016, Creative Director of Island Adventures for the National Museum of Singapore’s Children’s Season 2012, Artistic Director of The Arts House’s 10th Anniversary in 2014, and Co-curator of The Studios: Fifty, a festival of 50 iconic Singapore plays presented by the Esplanade in 2015. He is currently the Festival Director of the Singapore International Festival of Arts. 

An established arts educator, Tze Chien has conducted workshops and masterclasses for tertiary institutions and schools since 2001. He serves on several Curriculum Development Advisory Committees at Nanyang Academy of Fine Arts, and is an Adjunct Lecturer at Nanyang Technological University/National Institute of Education, as well as a Principal Tutor at the National University of Singapore. He has also taught at institutions including LASALLE College of the Arts and NTU/NIE. Beyond academia, he has contributed significantly to arts education nationally, serving as an adjudicator for the Singapore Youth Festival Arts Presentation (Drama) for seven years and as Creative Director of the SYF Concert 2019. He has also been commissioned by Singapore’s Ministry of Education to conduct devising workshops and develop educational scripts for the OPAL teaching and learning portal.

In addition to his artistic and educational work, Tze Chien contributes to the broader arts ecosystem through governance and advisory roles. He is a Board Member of Trustees of the University of the Arts Singapore, and serves on the Industry Advisory Group for LASALLE College of the Arts.

https://sifa.sg/

This monthly gathering invites directors and other theatre makers to come together, share experiences, and seek advice in a supportive community. There is often an isolating nature to directing, and this new space aims to foster connection and collaboration. The Board of Directors is an opportunity to set aside time each month to be alongside members of the Directing community all over the world. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:08

I first met Chung Sichen when I was living and working in Singapore, a city whose theater ecology moves fast, evolves quickly, and asks artists to constantly define themselves in relation to a rapidly changing culture. Even then, Sichen was someone I deeply respected, not just for the work he made, but for the clarity of thought behind it. Over the years, our paths crossed in different ways. I commissioned him to write a piece for graduating actors at LaSalle College of the Arts, and later interviewed him while researching directing culture in Singapore. We've never known each other especially closely, but I've always felt that he was one of those artists paying close attention to form, to authorship, and to what theater might still become. In this conversation, we meet him at an interesting threshold. After years as artistic director with the finger players, he's stepping into a new role as festival director of the Singapore International Festival of Arts, helping shape not just individual productions, but the larger artistic ecology of a country. We talk about finding a voice, about directing in Singapore, about what young artists need now, and about what it means to curate a festival in a moment when audiences, institutions, and artists are all changing at once. This is my conversation with Chung Sichen. I can't imagine how overwhelmed you are and how you found the time to fit this in, but I can only thank you tremendously for, as you said, this is your unwinding period. This is your relaxing period.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

I know. It's like speaking like an artist, right? You unwind, you work, but you still revolve your life around making art and talking about art. So obviously, this is my downtime, as and during my downtime, I like to talk about art, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:26

Hey, you and me both, and I appreciate that. I I love that impulse. My favorite thing to do is to work. My least favorite thing to do is not work, and there's no in between. So if I'm not on vacation, I'm still talking about work. Um We met in Singapore many, many years ago. I'm not exactly sure when we actually first met, but I know that LaSalle commissioned your piece, Hitler as Jekyll and Hyde. Which then became a kind of a growing series of pieces, right? It was then there was another piece that you did a couple years later. Yeah, I think it was called uh Frame by Eduff. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, and that was such a fruitful relationship for our students, not only having you as writer, but also as director, having you as then uh, I think you were artistic director of Finger Players, um, and just having you in the industry and just being so accessible, which was so wonderful, which is why I sought you out when I was writing my article about what I perceived at the time as a directing problem that was coming for Singaporean theater. There was such a great initiative around playwrights. Obviously, there were schools for acting, but I didn't see anywhere that was training the next generation of directors. And you spoke so eloquently to that, to that period. And I want to dig deeper into that and see in these six, seven years since that article was written and the last time we saw each other, has there been progress? But um, I want to get into origin stories of you for a little while. So everybody kind of understands the perspective. Do you remember when directing first became something more than just making theater and when it became a way of seeing the world for you?

SPEAKER_01 4:05

I think I have to start my journey first and foremost as being an actor. I think, I think obviously for us, our first entry point is one of the first entry points is really to to perform on stage, right? And because we love, I mean, I love the stage. I don't know why. I I think I've always liked not to be seen, but really to to have that platform where I could force myself to express myself and share whatever that I was feeling at the time or whatever that a story that I wanted to tell. I remember uh when when I was in primary school, um nobody volunteered for the school's storytelling contest. And I would always be the one that would just raise my hand and say, I want to be the one. Um I think it's probably uh the narcissistic in me, wanting to be on stage. But I think more importantly, I think I also realized uh over the couple of years that actually I'm quite shy, and I'm very shy. Actually, I want to avoid the limelight. But the thing about being the thing on the stage, it's it's really sharing, right? You're sharing something about you through you, and through you, you learn a lot about oneself. It's not really about the audience anymore. I think when I remember when I first performed on stage, I had stage fright, and all I could think about was the whole space was just me and me and my voice. And so I kind of fell in love with me in theater. And then when the opportunity came up to be an actor at the time, I was a volunteer of the necessary stage, and it gave me many opportunities to be an actor as well. I distinctively remember in one of my fifth or sixth productions with them, I was so bored backstage. I was preparing to go on. I mean, all the actors, all the other actors around me were getting the jitters, the opening night jitters, and getting so excited to go on. And I was just there at the back of my mind, at the back of my mind, I was just at the backstage, I was just thinking about, oh my god, how many fire, how many more shows do I have to go? And it's only the opening night, right? And I was always more interested in what is the lighting designer doing? What is the stage manager doing? What is what is the bigger picture? And I was more interested in the bigger picture. And I realized at that point, I didn't want to be an actor at all. Not at all. I wanted to just get off stage and watch it, not just as an audience, but as an active participant in what I was watching, what I was unpacking. And I think that was when I realized, okay, maybe it's not being an actor. I love the theater, but maybe it's not really acting that I'm interested in. I'm interested in anything else, but acting. So I started to dabble in other things. I volunteered as a stage manager, did research. And because of my love for theater, I also, um, when I went enter the university, I decided to enroll myself in the theater studies program. And obviously that's where you've learned or rather experiment with being a director with your peers. And I realized, oh, actually, I'm I'm more interested in creating the bigger picture, not than directing per se. I think it's really just knowing all and moving all the different moving parts and create that unified picture. And through that unified picture, you share something about what you feel about certain subjects. But more importantly, back to the whole idea of storytelling, it's not really about you anymore. I just being in that space and sharing that with a community or with a group of people in the room with you. And you feel that you are just like a drop in the ocean, you know what I mean? And that's what I've always enjoyed about being in theater. I realized it's not really about me. It's not really about being an actor or being the director or being in charge. It's really about being a drop in the ocean. And you feel the entire room feeling the same thing or seeing the same thing as you. I think that was that is still something that I try to capture in all my work.

SPEAKER_03 8:02

Yeah, I think you do actually. And hearing you tell the story is very similar to what I felt when I was an actor on stage, where like I always say that I was on stage and I realized that if I took a step to the left, I would have created a diagonal, thereby exposing the a further flank of the right side of the stage, and that the lighting design would, and I was just like, uh-oh, I'm not an actor anymore in this moment. And then here I am many years later. And you mentioned um having the influence of Alvin and Necessary Stage. Alvin, we had on the podcast um earlier, I guess uh our audiences will remember, um, spoke so eloquently about that transition period from Pau Koon and what was before, and then to what was the next generation, which was you. Uh, and and and we even spoke in the article about how Alvin was kind of a bridge generation. There's so many artists came through Necessary Stage. And um as as you so eloquently said, I needed to stop doing Alvin's work and I needed to start finding my own. I needed to find my own voice because I knew his voice very, very well. Can you think about that moment where you could articulate? Maybe, maybe you'd you figured out what you wanted to do. I want to direct, I want to speak, I want to make these stories, I want to disappear. But can you articulate when you had a vision or a voice of, but these are the things I want to say with the work that I am making?

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Interestingly, um, it was, I think it was my 10th or 11th year as a professional. I was by by then the artistic director of the figure players. You were thinking by then I would figure it out. Yeah. But I was genuinely stumped um when I remember uh the Straits Times journalist Hong Sing Yi. Um just I was she was interviewing me for a previous story for one of the plays that was about to stage. And she suddenly just stopped midway through the interview and said, Mr. Chen, what exactly is your vision beyond this world? And I was, and usually I will come up with great sound bites, right? I will have a great comeback. And I was I think I was dumbfounded for about five or ten seconds, and I didn't really have an immediate answer. I was fumbling through it, obviously, but but and after the interview, I was like, huh, I got you, didn't I? And he said, Yeah, you did. And I think, yeah, what exactly is my vision? Um what because you you talk about a vision for a play, it's not the same as a vision as a theater maker, as a director. Um, and I think it took me another 10 years. Um, funny enough, during COVID. Um, during the lockdown, and and I mean, I always jokingly tell my friends, I always have a delay reaction to all things. Um and and during COVID lockdown, always it felt like nothing had changed me. Um, I was thinking everything in my stride, everyone else was panicking. I was like, cool as a cucumber. Um and then I did my work for CFA at that time. It was we were commissioned, um, Garov commissioned me to stage this work uh over three years. And finally, the year that it was four, the staging obviously COVID hit. Uh, we had to delay it. Um, a year later, we were still risking it because I think it was at the height of Omicron. Things could happen at any point in time. Um, we were flying in actors from Japan to finish the work, but at any point in time, all it would take is was just one person to be down and the whole production would be canceled. And all I remembered was I was every day as I was rehearsing, so much was on the line, three years of work, and and it could be it could be cancelled at any point in time, right? I was looking, I was rehearsing, I was looking at the latest news, just just I mean, half expecting the that there was another thing, and then we had to do another thing to and to prevent the show from being canceled. And finally, it was staged um on the opening night um to um at a time because we had to restrict the numbers to 200 people in the Victoria, in the Victoria Theater, um, which is 600.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Yeah, 200 people, and they had to, yeah, and they had to sit apart from one another. And and as part of the the the uh the the the what but I can't even remember the word, um as part of the the safety measures, everyone had to leave one by one, roll by row. So we can't even converse with the audience. Um so it was the weirdest opening night because usually after the euphoria, after the opening night, you get to witness and talk to the audience and get a sense of where where the work sits with the audience. Um I everyone left one by one, though. It was a very warm applause, but from 200 audiences, nonetheless. Um they left and they had to leave the theater immediately. And I had to was the last person to leave the theater. I remember going out of the theater and out to the lobby, and it was completely empty. It was, I think it was so, so, so crushing at that point in time. I realized, what's the point of making a show? What is what I'm going for? The the euphoria, the the the end point is the show itself. I realized it took me about another year to recover from that experience. I realized, no, actually, in times of war, in times like a pandemic, that's the first thing that will go, right? So does that mean I'm living for that moment when I finish putting up? Is my job really about putting up a show? And I realized maybe it's not. And then you feel another epiphany hit me just the first time I realized that I wasn't, I didn't want really to be an actor. That's why I was the first epiphany. The second epiphany is I realized my job is not to make a show. I'm not really interested in making a show. I'm interested in creating a community. I'm more interested in in, and that manifests itself in education. That manifests itself in having conversations with artists uh and creating a scene. And what do we mean by a scene that will include artists, producers, even policymakers, bureaucrats, and even audiences, right? They create the scene. That is the the tribe. I think that's what I'm looking for. I'm trying to form my own tribe, a tribe where people could just gravitate towards something. And in this case, it happens to be art making. And through art making, we can have conversations about everything, about art and everything outside of art. And I realized actually that's what I'm doing. I'm in the business of communication. I'm in the artistry of making my opinions heard, but in a way that will contribute to a discourse where everyone will feel free to have a conversation and to have a discourse with. And that is what I'm more interested in.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

Sichen, you're opening up a can of worms here because this is this is my public people on the podcast will know this is my real passion about the theater, is this thing, that the play is a centralizing event for a much larger discourse, for a much larger conversation. That it's just the reason we come together, but why we stay there is something else. You're you're telling the story of that show, and I'm thinking that's that's my own kind of like little personal hell. An empty lobby, one by one leaving. It's I I can't imagine easy. So you said soul crushing, and I can feel that. Um I I wasn't I wasn't gonna jump into this, but you've you've led to this uh this thought. Um you're you're you're now the festival director of of an entire country's festival of arts for the next, was it four years? Is that right? Yeah, it's yeah, officially it's two years. Okay. All right. But but you spent you will have spent many years thinking about that. I hate to get so logistical and nut nuts and bolts, but it, but like, did you pitch yourself as festival director, or did they seek you out? Like, were you already thinking this and going, here's how I can do this? Or were you, I don't want to say next in line, but like of artistic directors of voices in in Singapore, I would say, well, yes, at some point, Sichen has to be the festival director.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

I think the process was firstly will shortness a couple of potential delegates or or potential uh festival directors for each tenure. So interestingly, I was actually asked the last time around as well. So I was one of the three. So I was quite familiar with the interviewing process. So obviously they asked me that again for that interview. So in a way, I was kind of prepared for it. Um, yes and no, because it was one of those things that, okay, um, honored enough to be asked, happy to go for another interview, have another job at it. But I think many things have passed, have transpired between the first interview and the second interview. Um at the first interview, which was 2019, um, I had just left the fingerplays. I decided to step away from it and then have a new way of looking at the work that I was doing the fingerplayers to step away from it also to give the younger voices in the second generation to have a have a go at it. Um and I think, but also more importantly, I was sick of being an artistic director. I wanted to be, for once in my life, an artist, just an artist, and just do work for myself and produce work for myself. So, so I think, and obviously, then this the when they asked me in two years ago to sit for the interview again, I was a very slightly different person. I was by then practicing for as a freelance for as an independent for about three to four years at that time. And I had that share of being just an artist. Everything I did, everything that I was doing was self-serving in a way. Because obviously, even though I was educating, I was teaching, I was writing, I was directing, but it felt like, oh, I've had my, I've carved up my own space, I had my own room to exercise my full creativity as an artist without thinking about anyone else, but just me, you know, the big me. Um but but at the same time, I I wasn't, I mean, I obviously when you talk about my my why I always wanted to do theater was always the whole idea of creating a community. And and and that part of me wasn't fully realized because as much as I was teaching and I did a lot of teaching during those freelance years, um where I could share that and and and develop a community of actors, new actors, new directors and everyone else. There's always so in terms of resources and in terms of what you can do, it's always quite limited. So when being when I was asked for the interview again, I was looking at it more from how to develop the infrastructure, how to fully realize the ecosystem. Because I because I was very clear about what my job was all about, which is that eventually after my tenure, I will go back to be an artist. And and for me, it's about five years down the road, I want something to change fundamentally within the ecosystem that I'm practicing. And and given this chance to to work with on a national level, anyway, um to talk to the policymakers, to talk to the sponsors on a national level, to work with an organization that is as big as the festival, but also as a festival, it's also plugged to the other festivals in the world as well. There is this great opportunity to expand on Singapore's ecosystem in a real tangible way. Um, at least in a in a fundamental way, that that will give practitioners in Singapore another way of looking at practicing their craft beyond Singapore, or maybe uh some paradigm shift that would make them feel that that or make them have them realize that there's actually another way. And there are other ways. There are definitely other ways. And and for me, my job as a festival director, for me, that gave me the opportunity to inject that space through through the job of being a festival director. So, which is why for me that that was what I was more interested in at the second interview. And at the second interview, I articulated this vision.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

You were ready for it then. You you had kind of a shift in a sea change to be that new person, that person who was making that. Or you had this distilled what was already a a hunch into an articulated kind of.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Yeah, I think it's more like this. You see, the thing is that when you have a because I I think because at the interview, I had to articulate what I would do for the festival. Right? And and and that it became an exercise, right? I wasn't really thinking about whether I would get it or not, but it was really a very good exercise for myself. To to really sit with the idea that if I had all the resources in the world or more resources, what could I make my world a better one? Sounds cheesy as hell.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

No, no. I think it's I think it's a beautiful articulation of saying I'm not just going to be a festival director, I'm going to be an artist. In the ecosystem that I hope to have nudged in a direction, what's the direction I want to go into in five years? I think that's a beautiful articulation of saying that's exactly what I hope every um every festival is like or every play is like. Every every moment is like, how can I further the conversation? How can I keep the discussion going on? Um, I really appreciate that. Having spent the time that I did in Singapore, I can say this without any kind of equivocation. Um, for a country of its size, it is punching way above its weight in the arts. I mean I was remember coming back to the American, finding out what the budget for the National Endowment of the Arts was versus what the what the budget for um the arts council in Singapore is. And I was 380 million people here, five million people there. It's just not fair. What does Singapore theater do exceptionally well? And what do you think it's still struggling to do?

SPEAKER_02 23:08

I think we microwave things very well.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Yep. I mean, if if you understand the analogy, I think that's what we are very good at. We the the the rate and the pace that we work at and the work pace we work with is just astounding. Um I don't know any scene like ours where we are making five shows a year per artist, right? And we are making projects and thinking about things that are way above and beyond what an artist would order to um in other parts of the world. We are thinking about producing, we are thinking about uh writing, we're thinking about how to further the next generation. At the same time, we want to further our own craft all at the same time, right? And and and what that and that's unfortunately, unfortunately, that's what Singapore is. I mean, if you think about, I mean, if you understand Singapore's development as a nation, as a culture, and we are constantly moving. We are constantly moving at a pace where anything slower than light is considered a regression. Yeah. Right? Um, so we had to move forward that we have to move very, very quickly. When we even talk about, oh, let's take our time with process. We are not really taking our time. We are we are so impatient, like, okay, what's what's what's next? What's next, right? Um and and so uh, which is where, which is why if you think about where the scene was 30 years ago and where we are now, is if you could just track the progress and the scale and depth of what we have right now from virtually a cultural desert. I mean, in Times magazine, be where we were cited as one of the most boring countries in the world, um, to where we are, where we have a full professional theater scene, performing art scene, um, with artists that I it's not really, really uh in the mainstream consciousness, but we have world-class artists in various parts of the world. Um, from a tiny, tiny nation of 6.5 million. Right? And people tend to forget that's how small we are. We are we the same size as Manhattan or maybe smaller? I'm I can't remember.

SPEAKER_03 25:19

Yeah. Possibly. Roughly, roughly around that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Yeah, and and our culture is world culture, but at the same time, we are so so much baggage in our Asian identity as well. And the I the Singaporean identity is still evolving as we speak because we are essentially a migrant society, right? So the identity is constantly being is morphing and and evolving constantly. That means we are talking about new narratives, new cultures, and we have to, in one way or another, we do respond to that unconsciously as well. That's what we do very well. We have so much diversity, but in a way that the world has difficulty wrapping their heads around because it's the kind in a very, very tiny footprint. That that that the concentrate of differences and similarities, overlapping histories and cultural richness in one tiny footprint. I think that's a key difference. And you really create a concentrate on a concentration of everything that happens so quickly and so rapidly. You go away for one month and you come back. Oh my god, the street has changed. It's like, what? They've diverted the traffic. This shop that I used to go to is suddenly closed. And I go to other weak places. I mean, I keep going back to Japan because that's the one of my go-to places. And the same shop that I've been patronizing for the last 15 years is still there. Yeah. And like Singapore, I go away for a week and suddenly the shop that I go to is suddenly gone. I mean, I mean, that is development. That's progress. That's how we are, always and above where I think that's I think where the where Singapore is, it's where the future is. We are at least 10 years ahead of people. But we don't we don't realize it in Singapore. Um the world doesn't realize it because we're so small for them, it's just, oh, I'm just gonna come to Changgy Airport, and that's it. They might know Changgy Airport more than they know about us. But and it's hard to explain what Singapore is in one sentence. Give me half an hour, I can unpack it a bit more, but it's still not enough. You have to come here and you have to kind of, as you, as you did, as you have, and you understand what I'm talking about. So it's it's really it's it's a microwave culture that we develop very well. We develop flavors very, very well, we develop competitives very, very well in a very short amount of time. That's the problem. Time. Time, we don't really think about time as an agent to develop deeper flavors in a way that a way that would realize our full potential. So the complexities that I talk about, it's quickly developed, it's fully realized, but it's never, never push.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

I had somebody describe the difference. You know, America is called a melting pot. I'm not sure how how how blended our flavors are anymore. But the idea that cultures have come together and assimilated and simmered and kept their essence, but also created something, something new. And somebody said that Singapore was a salad where each individual parts keep their parts and they come together to make a thing, but they're never there's never a new thing kind of created together. Maybe it's some new things to create it together, but they're very, very clearly distinct parts in that, that Rojak salad kind of idea, which is beautiful. And and then, you know, Alpheans play hotel as a as a sense of like people are coming in and people are coming out, changing it a little bit, but really just the hotel continues on. As you're thinking about this developing, this developing of flavors, and when I contacted you about do you think that there is a development of young directors? When I left, this was in 2019, there were no recognizable directing clear training programs. There was not a degree program. There were not even with the companies themselves. There were, you know, every company has this young company that is training really actors, maybe even some technicians and stage managers, and all the great training that has been put into the playwriting. But we we couldn't recognize where were directors going to cut their teeth. In a very expensive country, in a place where where space is so limited, where is a young person going to go and make mistakes and make make dirt and make you know things that are are rough around the edges before they can present them and get critiqued by the the times or something else. Has that landscape started to develop since last time we spoke?

SPEAKER_02 30:17

Not much, to be frank.

SPEAKER_03 30:20

It's okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

I think the I think the the schools are producing actress, the schools are producing uh thinkers in the form of dramaturgy, performance, uh performance making. But if you talk about specifically directing, possibly not. I don't know why exactly. I mean, we have we have writing courses, we have playwrights, right? Um more and more we have we have universities and schools teaching playwriting. I think, and and I think, but the thing about being a director, it's it's it's I'm not sure if it's it's because in Singapore, it's mostly personality driven, the directors that we have. And and a lot of these directors, they are also the early founders of the existing company. So obviously, when the we talk about the first generation of the theater actors, uh theater directors here in Singapore, um, they they wanted to be the director because by default, because they by gumption and if they could organize people around them, they could create an opportunity for them to direct. But if you ask them and sit them down, so what is directing? They you may they may be stumped for answers, right? Um and what exactly is directing? So we have Paul Kun in the form of being a playwright who directs his own place, right? So is he a director first or a playwright first? I would say he's a playwright, right? Who wants to realize his place and he knows he knows enough to know how to direct because obviously he also he was also trained in Australia and he knew about lighting, stage managing and everything. But I think about what the thing about being a director is that you need to get your hands dirty, right? You need to be a stage manager, you need to know and everything about acting, you need to know about a bit about playwrighting. You're not all that, but obviously you are, you are, you are the captain of the ship. So I think a lot of the things that we, a lot of the early pioneers, as long as you have a vision, you have a vision, you are able to organize people around you. But the craft for directing, it's it's personality driven. But is there a craft to be learned from it? Yes, obviously. Uh, but the the where things are right now, um we we have, as I mentioned earlier, we have so many theater companies with our first generation of artistic directors still uh around, meaning alive, uh, which means that that they are still practicing, right? And Singapore being so small, the it's hard to create another space for another company, as far as resources are concerned. Then what is a young theater maker supposed to do? If you want to be a director, say for example, with Gumption, you have a vision, but how do you gather people around you based on that one idea that you have? Realize that these days in Singapore, especially where cars are as are expensive as it's as costly as a house, right? Again, after explaining this, our cars are more expensive than houses in Singapore. Um, how do you then start to gather people and be able to pay or at least get them to have some buy-in to for them to invest in your vision together? And then I think time is a scarcity here. Space is obviously that goes without the question. But then when you talk about space, it's money in Singapore, especially. Unless you have that net worth that that that that um I would say that back financial backing or that gumption big enough to underwrite all that, it's very hard to organize a group of people around one vision. And I think I've seen young theater makers do that in the young, in the form of young collectives. I think we have that. But obviously, the younger collectives are uh disadvantaged as well because in terms of the resources, they don't, they have, they don't necessarily have that net worth or the network to be to be able to tap into the national resources to sustain them long enough. And after a while, that vision, that one man's vision, is just not enough to sustain a tribe, then what else do you have as a theater maker? What are your options to want to practice in Singapore? So there's so many of these factors, monetary gumption, and also the reality of wanting to be an artist, a full-time artist in Singapore as well. So it would seem like it's much easier and more employable if you are uh serving the scene as an actor, technician, or even as a playwright. But a director, it's it's tough. I will admit that it's tough.

SPEAKER_03 35:07

If you could wave a magic wand and create, add, expand something that's already happening, what would that be? And it and maybe it's not school-based, maybe it's not institution-based, but is it is it without putting words in your mouth, is it about opening up pots of money? Is it about opening up spaces? Is it about opening up incubators? If you could do anything to create that landscape down the road, what what would that be if wishes were fishes?

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Well, voila, here comes the festival. There you go. So obviously, when when I was given the job, I was the immediately I reached out to younger creatives who may have have some inclination in directing your work. Alongside with established names, of course, but I also was also looking out at looking for young potential collectives or young creatives who have never had the resources to direct or helmet piece of work. And and so as one of my own personal goals is to create that space in the form of work in progress, developmental programs, or giving them a smaller work in the form of an outdoor festival stage to give them the opportunity to organize a tribe. Let's not even call it directing, let's organize something so that you get a hands of getting your hands dirty in producing a work, to direct a work, to realize your vision that you never dared to have because you thought that it was something that would never, never happen to you. So I was glad that in my freelance years, I talked about it as though it's like it happened 10 years ago. It was only like literally two years ago. It was again fast-tracking Singapore, right? Every time is relative in Singapore.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

I realized there are a lot of these young creatives who have gumph gumption, who had a vision, but didn't have the resources or the know-how to organize something for themselves with some security blanket. So obviously, when when I was at the job on my lap, I immediately I thought of them and see what can I do then? Because if the schools are not really giving you the opportunity to direct, then the festival within my power, I can give you the opportunity to write. Direct is maybe too big a word because they are young creators, but maybe give you the opportunity with some guidance, with some resources, in a in a safer space uh where you will not be judged too harshly, but yet you contribute something to the festival. So you take a lot of boxes for me, but at the same time, it's really giving you and giving myself and giving you the chance to exercise your craft as a leader in your discipline. And let's not talk about creating a company, but really within the festival means to create a work under the festival umbrella. Um, and and I think that was what I set out to do when I was disappointed in February last year.

SPEAKER_03 38:30

And how do you, uh imagine, you know, the ROI KPIs of it all are there? How do you redefine what excellence is when it is a young theater maker who is trying some things, throwing some spaghetti at the wall? How do you how do you create that safe space for them to play with also understanding that this is the international festival of the arts, whatever, in big bold title, and that people are coming and some people will will appreciate that and some people will not understand that. How do you redefine excellence for everybody in that way of saying, like, this is also important, if not more important than this established person over here?

SPEAKER_01 39:15

I think that's where the curation is very important, the curation of the festival, because I think um I'm creating via the curation. But obviously, when you're talking curating a piece of work of a festival, it's not one or the other, it's really uh amalgamation of your experiences from a small-scale work to include an epic, to an international to a local. I mean, I was just thinking, I was just thinking about it on my way here. What exactly is a festival? Because the festival is not asking you to experience one show. What the festival is trying to do is to give you a sense of the performing arts in three weeks, within three weeks. And and what it does, and hopefully what the curation is all about, is that it encourages you to be adventurous. It encourages you to, it compels you to be not just be discerning, but also to sample other types of books to take you out of the comfort zone. Because in the way that I presented the festival as like as a buffet, because I think that's what the festival is, it's a buffet, right? So there's some things that you may not try, but because it's presented fixed with the beef and the roast beef, you might just want to try it for the fun of it, and just try it. Because it may not be, it may be of something of a quiet taste, but because of the combination, maybe this would work with this. Because you are also curating your own performance. Your own, whatever that goes onto your dish is your own creation as well. So you have your side dish, you have your main dish, you have the go-to stuff. But obviously, as part of the buffet experience, it's also for you to to, in a safe space, try out different kinds of food, right? So as a festival curator, I will create that cheese platter. I mean, going back to different European connotations and different ways of thinking about food. A cheese platter, right? You have the blue cheese, you have the funky cheese, you have the cheese that you like, but you try everything. Why? Because it's a sampler, it's a platter, and that hits your palate in many different ways. And collectively, it creates that experience. So for me, obviously, when I talk about curation and think about curation, who should be doing the main cheese, who should be doing the blue cheese. I know it's a bit of a quiet taste. How do I sample this? How do I create this? And how do I frame this so that it's not too overwhelming? How do I make it less intimidating for you? But ultimately, it's not just that one book. It's really the entire platter. And that for me, why that is why we that's which is why I mean I keep going back to this. Why do we still need a festival in this day and age? What's the function of the festival? I mean, especially we have a very busy calendar. What is so unusual that it's that that we that we still that we still that the festival still warrants its own importance? That we still want a festival, an international Singapore festival. Because if you think about it, we are not the only festival in town right now. We are not the only um organization that brings in international shows. We are, I mean, there are so many companies right now in their own season. So, in a way, we we don't lack shows. So, what is the point of the festival then? The point of the festival is A ultimately to convert audiences via this platter of cheeses to make you go out and get so that you'll be out get out of your comfort zone to taste new things, to experience new things that you have never experienced before. And I would have a group of artists and a whole community of artists who have never done some things before because it takes them out of the comfort zone as well. And to create that book for this purpose.

SPEAKER_02 43:09

So for me, it makes sense. How do you this is a draft thought here?

SPEAKER_03 43:19

How do you curate create a festival that is simultaneously a mirror and a provocation? How do you how do you keep us not grounded, but acknowledge the present moment of what is happening now while also pointing toward a future? As you said, the five years down the line when you're back in the industry. How do you how do you honor, because I mean, as you as you said, heritage is a legitimate problem in Singapore because it is so forward leaning. How can you balance both of those things so that it is a mirror to this society that is building itself? And redefining itself continuously while also going, I don't know where it's going, but I like this direction. That zip code over there is where I'm pointing.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

I think.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

For me, there's I mean, there's several answers to that question, but I think the first answer would be A, um, there's a lot of blind faith. Um you can't do anything without that. Obviously, we we I think as artists we thrive in being in the unknown. Because in the unknown, it means anything is possible. And therefore you have to carve out your own pathway to to find something, to find the light at the end of the tunnel, right? It's scary for most people, for many people actually, to grow up in the dark. But I thrive in the dark because it means there are no borders. The the because when it's dark, when it gets the darkness, you know that you can go anywhere. And if you if you have the gumption and the courage and the faith, you can carve up a road for yourself and for others as well. Um so that's blind faith. That's fun. And the second thing it's it's really about in the ideal world, what would it look like? And I and I think ultimately we are all dreamers. That's why we do what we do, despite the odds, right? Despite the challenges, despite what is around us in reality, we are always looking beyond what we see. We are always thinking about what we see is not really the true reality of where things are. There's always something behind, peel behind. I mean, peel the curtains, right? It's about peeling there's layers away and looking at what goes, what is superficial, what's beyond the veneer. So which means as you're reflecting, you are also projecting. And as you're projecting, you are looking beyond the mirror, beyond the reflection to see what's behind you. Because in your own reflection, most people just look at their own reflection. But for me, if I use the analogy, I like to look what's behind me through that mirror. And sometimes that's more revealing than just looking at yourself. And and and that is the scariest thing about being an artist, because sometimes we are we are dreamless, we are impractical. But because we are these two things, we can help people think beyond the superficial, think beyond the veneer, and make them think about what is obvious. I think as you and you and I know that as directing, the first thing that we teach our students is please don't be literal. That's what we are talking about. Because what we see is not what we what we see is not really a true reflection of what reality is. It's only at best subjective. But what is the objective truth? We may never, never hit it because we are still subjective, we are still biased, but obviously we are asking a community of subjective truths to come together so that we can arrive at something that's closer to a truth that is universal. I think that is the ideal, that is the blind faith that we still have that. That is something that we have beyond politics, beyond the the times that we live in. And if you were to ask me when I'm when I was a student, before I decided that this would be my career, would I be where I am today? It's like probably no. Is this would I is this where I wanted to be? Probably no too. All I wanted to do at the point in time was it'd be quite nice if I could just do this as a career, career. If I wasn't talented enough, I wouldn't mind just selling tickets. And that would be good enough for me.

SPEAKER_03 48:10

You were deep in it. Like this was-I don't want to say the bug had bitten, but like there was a seed that was maybe I'm the gardener, maybe I'm, you know, just doing something else in the garden, but like the garden is it. Like there's there's no doubt around about it. I can't imagine. I can't imagine your day. I can't imagine your your your your how many meetings you have, how many people you've got to speak to, how many things you've got to do, without, you know, detail as much as you want to open as much as you want to. What keeps you up at night, or what is what is a a fear, not a fear maybe, but what is a worry that you have at this point before the festival is about to open?

SPEAKER_01 48:53

I wouldn't as mentioned earlier, um, I always have a delayed reaction to stress and and and and um crisis. And it may fake me like maybe five years later, oh my god, as it did before COVID. But I think I wouldn't I wouldn't label it as I wouldn't phrase it as a worry, but I think I would always think about, I haven't quite, quite cracked the code. I think that's what drives me. It's like I need to crack the code. I need to know, understand how to not just understand it, but also know how to resolve it and solve the problem the minute I wake up today. So I'll always be revisiting some of the things that I did not crack, some of the things I did not resolve. And I will always be revisiting, oh, I should have said this to avoid this, right? And and this will have this will have turned out, this would turn out better if I had done this instead of this, right? Um, it's a compulsion that I have. Um and and so whatever whatever things that I've failed to resolve or failed to circumvent, that's something that I bring to um when I unwind. Right. Um, this is how I unwind, if it's like, oh my God, I do a review of myself, a post-mortem, right? It's a I'm constantly in post-mortem mode. Um, oh, I should have done this, oh stupid me. And so when I wake up, it's really a chance for me to correct a wrong, to write a wrong, all right, to feel that I can do this better. Um, so I always be on alert to if under those circumstances, I would know how to resolve this because I post more than this. Um, that is my main driver. So so obviously with a festival coming up, there are new problems all the time. Um, new conflicts, uh, new issues that that that will pop up and unexpectedly. Yeah, so you're constantly firefighting, but at the same time, I realized that I've I fought so many fires during my my days as an artistic director at Finger Players. I realized that, ah, it's every day. It's like it's like what's new. Um, and what was worse was I remember at being at the Finger Players, nobody taught me how to be an artistic director. Nobody taught me how to run a publicity campaign. But I think at that point in time, I had zero resources. Right? I mean, I had no money, literally no money in the bank to roll out a publicity campaign. So, how do you roll out a publicity campaign with no money, with no publicity budget, right? All the money has to go to the hardware, the set, the actors' salaries and all of that, even my own salary. So obviously you're working with limited resources. So you create something. And now I've a budget. I have the national resources, I have people, more than more than 10 people in each department. So it's a happy problem. So that means things, I mean, as difficult as they are, you can work out, work around it because you have the resources. You can make things happen. Really, the problem then is have you been thinking about it enough to work around these issues?

SPEAKER_03 52:10

I imagine you've been flying around, seeing some things, going to lots of festivals over the last couple of years. Is there something that you see as I don't want to say a trend? Because I don't like that word, but are you seeing recurring themes, problems, ideas that artists from other countries are also tapping into? And what's the zeitgeist internationally in theater right now?

SPEAKER_01 52:35

I think everyone is trying to get their work out of their own countries. I think it's the idea that how do I make my work attractive enough to make people want it so that I go beyond my home country.

SPEAKER_03 52:54

The tastes and values and borés here at home.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I I understand that, and I I totally uh be able, I'm able to tap into that because that was what I wanted to do for myself as well as an artist. Right? But you see, the thing is, it's not really about getting your work out there. Yes, obviously, but for me that is the byproduct because a lot of the times when I'm when I in the most exciting conversations I've had with artists and people, they are the ones who are able to articulate exactly what's bugging them. And it's always, always personal. It's always, always tied to the soil. But but as artists, they are able to not just embody that, but able to express that and and and express that through the work that they are making. And therefore, that's why it's so deep. That's why uh it's so uh so that's why when you talk about it, it's almost uh you can see the work without you without you seeing the work. Because that is that is the work when you're able to articulate it and live it so eloquently and and put it together so eloquently that that the work is a byproduct of what you just shared, instead of it the other way around. So the work doesn't speak for yourself because you are the living embodiment of the work itself. And and that for me is where it gets exciting for me to learn from a different artist, to to, and a lot of these artists don't, as much as they are telling me about the work and they hope that I will get their work or get their work on board with me, it's very much like a selling pitching, right? It's a market in that way. But in that conversation, you realize that it's not really about the economics of or the practicality of making your work translate to other parts of the world or to other cultures. It's really about the work that you are doing as a vessel of self-exploratory, as a self-exploration of who you are. And if you know who you are exactly and you're able to transcend that beyond your ego, that becomes universal. And that's always quite beautiful to be this. And so for me, um that being being in this job uh has enabled me to have conversations with uh these great artists. So, and therefore, but I may not get the work because sometimes it just means it doesn't quite fit, right? But sometimes they they the conversations they have a very deep, leave a very deep impression on you. And and you keep revisiting that conversation that you that you have with that one person or with that collective of artists, and you realize I want to be you one day, I want to be as eloquent as you one day, I want to be, well, not necessarily as successful as you, but obviously all of us have different career paths, right? But the thing is that then ultimately going back to the idea, what is the point of being an artist? Sometimes it's not really about the work that gets you somewhere. It's really about you being the artwork in itself. And that is always the starting point and the end point of it all. And that's something that that I always keep telling um the artists that I work with. It's really not about being successful in the conventional way that you get your books out there. You know, those are the traditional yardsticks. Oh, if you're successful, your works will be seen by X number of people, is it will tour this particular country and that. And I keep telling people, yeah, if that if that happens, that's a bonus. But that's not the end point. That shouldn't be the end point.

SPEAKER_03 57:01

I always ask this question on the podcast because I had a student ask this of me in between class one day, and it was such a subtle question that hit really deeply. And I and I love how long this question stayed with me, so I want to introduce it here. Can you think of a production that changed you as a human being fundamentally, not as necessarily as artists, as in like, that's what you can do with a theater, or I'm gonna steal that. But literally, there was there was Su Chen before watching this show, and there was a different Su Chen after watching this show. Can you think of something from the past recently? I mean, who knows when it when that was, when that hit hard for you.

SPEAKER_01 57:44

I think I can tell you this tree. The first one was Robert Lepach when I first saw Geometry of Circles. I think I was in JC college student, um, also art festival commission. When I first saw Robert the patch with geometry of circles, and you know Robert Rapach is a ghetto wizard. He will make things look so effortless. Yeah. With the most skeletal set pieces, they're actually very, very super educated. But but but they are they look so simple on stage. And and for me, that's I was like so taken aback by how he made it so easy for us to watch and yet empower our imagination in such a deep, deep way.

SPEAKER_02 58:37

Um that that that left me thinking very, very hard about what is set design.

SPEAKER_01 58:50

What set design can do. Obviously, he did more than set design with this book. Obviously, his story is so tied to his design and how he has staged everything. So that so there's the sense of a total theater, um, where the text was a perfect marriage between text, museum scene, uh performance, vocabulary, and and and storytelling and pacing, everything all wrote in one. So that was the first Robert LaPage. The second was Peter Brooks uh The Costume, I think it's called, yeah, which was just a clothes rack on stage. Uh two two two two chairs, I think. And and I was, I mean, the if you talk about Robert uh Peter Peter Brooke, he's on the extreme end of it. Right. Of Robert LaPage, right? Peter Brooke was so pat down, yeah, so minimalist, but he he with a clothes rack and two chairs, he brought us to different universes and different worlds, in this case, emotional worlds of the of the two characters. So simple, so deep, so profound. Um, like Robert LaPach, there was a very as well a total integration of concept, direction, acting, and storytelling. Then uh article about Balkun as well, the spirits play, um, which I love, absolutely love. And but the thing that struck me the most was in the very, very last scene, um, he had confetti dropping from I mean, it was obviously not my first time seeing confetti drop, right? It's not really about the confetti. It's not really about the confetti, guys. It's really just how she just dropped confetti with and and he changed the theater to theater theater uh theater lighting. And and it was a perfect marriage of the text as well because he was, I mean, to to make without going too much into it, it was just five minutes of confetti dropping in different lights. And and the mood of the piece was just conveyed via these confetti dropping under these different shapes of lights with the text. Um, the text was very, very simple. It was just really the everything has turned blue, everything has turned red. And that's where the that those were the lines. And it was such a poetic moment because it just made me realize that it's really not about set design. It's not really about storytelling, it's not really about actors' performances sometimes. It's really about how all these moving parts come together at the right time, at the right moment to create these magical, profound experiences that just sweep you away and take you to a different part of your life, to different universes with that precision. That going back to directing, that is directing. It's all about that precision where you bring in all these moving parts to create that magical moment that takes your breath away. And that's what we are perfecting. That one second of mastery. If you're lucky enough, you can do it for the entire show. But if you can do it, just do it for one second, that is what you would at the brink of death, the life flashes past you, and if that makes it to one of these moments, you've got it made. You've got it made. And and then for me, that is which is which is what I think what light is all about, right? Which is that these multiple moments strung together that define you as a person. And and those three moments have defined me as an artist.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:37

Do you do you recognize in yourself a signature style? Something that always makes its in into all of your productions.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:46

Well, narratively, people keep going back to the fact that someone has died in one of my productions. Okay, well. There's some death. Definitely someone will die at some point. Um, so so that's me as a player, right? But I think I think as a director, I'm always looking at that visceral moment, you know what I mean? That that particular moment that that the acting, the direction, the text, the set design, the staging will all culminate in that one second of brilliance. Um and that's that's for me, that's what that is the main driver for me. Is that what is that one second of brilliance that I'm hoping to manifest? So that all these different moving parts will all come together, even if it's half a second. Um, and I always look for that, which is why, which is why for me, I mean, I'm someone has asked me, is that how can you watch these rehearsals day in, day out? Um, because I've got an actor who is also learning to be a director, and he's saying, Oh my god, it's so boring to see something over and over again through all these runs and these rehearsals. Don't you get bored? And I say, No, actually, I don't get bored at all. But why is it that I don't get bored? I realized, yeah, I'm looking for that perfect second of brilliance that that when it when you have that, even sometimes it's just in a rehearsal and it can never get in that in a show again. But you know that you've when you've got that one second, you want to replicate it, you want to duplicate it, and you want to kind of what did I do? What did the actors do? What was the vibe or the day that created this second of brilliance? And that is the code. That is the quote that you're trying to cry all the time.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:29

This is a dangerous question. This is why it's the last question in the in the podcast. Um I say it's dangerous, not because it's meant to be dangerous, but um the question is really who are you excited by? Who are you who who who do you wish people knew more about? Who do you wish had more exposure? And this is a difficult question, not only for any director, but for a festival director especially. But what I'm not saying, I'm not saying who is the best. That's that's not the question. It really is saying, like, you've seen the work by so and so, and you wish they were getting more exposure, or they were getting more money or time or audiences, or you've gone to see so and so, and what they're doing is is really phenomenal and it's influencing a lot of people. Who are the who are the people that you wish more people knew about ultimately who I'm gonna try to get onto the podcast and interview them as well?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:26

Um, it is it is a tough question.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:30

But I think I would start, I'm not sure if I'm answering your question, but sometimes your teachers are always someone that you should always revisit. That's the first thing. Um pass or living. But I think it's especially great teachers, right? Um, and sometimes they may not realize that they are great teachers. I have so many great teachers in in my theater career at V. Sometimes it's not really about the the artists in the present tense. It's how you have encountered them in the past tense. It's the one person or the one artistry that you keep going back to because it's your impress your impression of what they had said to you or what they had imp that what they had imparted. So I wouldn't say I I'm obviously there are great living artists out there. They are, there's so many, right? Um and I still get very excited by them and I get to know more and more through uh in the job that I'm doing. But I think but but what who that that teacher in your mind, whoever you you have revolve your artistry around, is your impression of that one conversation that you had with your teacher once upon a time. And and so I'm which is why I'm I'm not thinking I'm answering your question. Who should you I mean that's a question of who should you revisit, right? I would say replay that one conversation that you had with your teacher once, even if it's a bad teacher, but we have taught you something that is the first place go to beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:23

Nobody has ever nobody's ever gone that direction before. So that's a really lovely that's a really lovely refreshing take on it. Sichen, I thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule. I can't imagine what your next couple of weeks are going to be like. I truly, truly wish that I could be there. I the last time I was there was 2023 and it was only for like a week. And I miss it. It is the longest I have ever lived in one place, Singapore, for 10 years.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:54

Wow, really, really, wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:56

I'm I've moved around all my life, and it's the closest in my mind of what I have as kind of a home. And I know that it's I know that it wasn't it, I know that it wasn't my home, but it became a home for me. And um, meeting artists like you, seeing the great work that's being done makes me cherish what I had, but also really, really miss what I don't get to see because I've not been there. So seeing that you're in charge of uh the festival, seeing the lineup that you have, it's really amazing. And I I truly wish I could be there and wish you all the success with the next the next crazy month.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:31

Thank you. I mean, as I've said, this is how I unwind. Thank you for unwinding with me. Um, and um, I can't really look forward to more future conversations with yourself or with a like-minded source.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:46

Your lips to God's ears. Thank you so much. Thank you. If this episode gave you any insight, inspiration, or even just made you smile, please subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts for more conversations like this. And if you're looking for guidance with a creative challenge, or want to advance a dream of your own, we'd love to help. Visit Board of Directors.world. The Board of Directors is a global constellation of theater directors dedicated to building community, sharing knowledge, and transforming the role of the director in the 21st century. We convene and curate a fellowship that fosters mentorship, artistic inquiry, and collective care, transcending borders and institutions and traditions. Until then, take care of yourself and take care of each other.