Midlife: The secret to happy marriage?

In this episode, we’re talking honestly about relationships, long marriages and how life changes as the years go by.

After more than two decades of marriage, raising children, navigating careers and facing the ups and downs that life throws at you, what actually keeps a relationship going?

Is there really a secret to a long and happy marriage — or is it simply about weathering life’s storms together?

We also talk about a huge life transition many couples eventually face: the empty nest. After years of being a busy family of four, what happens when the kids grow up and suddenly it’s just the two of you again?

Along the way we reflect on everything from university life and early adulthood to the strange modern obsession with protein powders and fitness trends.

It’s a funny, honest and sometimes brutally real conversation about relationships, growing older, and figuring out what really matters.

If you’ve ever wondered what long-term relationships actually look like behind the scenes — this one’s for you.

Don't forget to subscribe and share with your friends.

Keep in touch, follow our socials or send an email to hellomidlife@icloud.com.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Hello again. Good evening. Fancy seeing you here.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

Do you think there's some kind of record for the number of podcasts people recording one evening? Oh, I don't know. Maybe we could make a world record. I feel like we're gonna. Just keep talking to each other.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Hour after hour.

SPEAKER_03 0:42

It's a good job we're good at talking, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Oh, that's not probably gonna pretend that we've had another week.

SPEAKER_03 0:51

We already said on the last podcast we were re pre-recording it. So we're pre-recording this. I've made a semi-attempt at changing my hair, so at least it looks vaguely different.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Oh, I didn't make any attempt at anything. I did get a new pint of beer.

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Well, there you go. That's a fresh pint.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Maybe I'll change my top. How are we gonna do that? I haven't done that either. So we're in the same old blue jumper. Everything's picking up anyway. I've got to that point. I've got to that point when you pack. You know when you're like, oh no, I just want to put everything in the bag, but it's stuff I need, and I can't. Oh god. That's because you know what I mean. I know, I just like doing all right. I can't I can't actually pack until like I leave because it's stuff I use. So yeah, I'm at that stage now anyway. What wine have you got? Um it's uh a lot sauvignon.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

My mum brought it. Sauvignon, my mum brought it around last week. Strong stuff. Strong stuff, I know. I'm gonna need it for this topic, aren't I? So before we get on to that, welcome to midlife no crisis. It's a joyful topic. It is a joy, it'll be fun. Welcome to Midlife No Crisis, everybody. Um so I did have something that I forgot to tell you actually in the last episode.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Oh, go, go on.

SPEAKER_03 2:20

Uh so when I got into parties last night, Jenny came in and said, My tip for Dubai is don't go, which was funny. And then we got onto the whole summer costume versus bikini conversation. Oh, yeah, go on. So she was saying she's not worn a bikini since she had Betsy, her little girl. Um, so we had the whole chat about what what everyone wears, and it was just such a lovely conversation. Do you know, like everyone got involved? This is the beauty, I think, of this type of podcast. Because someone asked me tonight, I went round to see Claire for a birthday, and a couple of the friends were there, and they were asking, like, what do you talk about? And I went, We just talk shit. Like, we talk about the things that you would talk about if you were together in the pub or anything. It's just it's just what everyone's talking about, isn't it? Really? We're not doing anything particularly. You're trying to add some structure to it. You're making it sound like structure. We have a bit of structure. But we just talk about the things that we talk about, don't we? There's no like Yeah, we do, yeah. There's no speciality to it. Anyway, if you wanted to know, Jenny wears a band bando, bandeau, bikini, no, bandeau swimming costume. That's the word I was looking for. Oh, right, strapless. Strapless, because she refuses to have strap marks.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

Yeah, I'm with her on that. I'm exactly the same.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

Don't like a strap mark. She was trying to understand my long body issue, and then we got into the the discussion about boob size, and I said, I couldn't wear a bandeau swimming costume because of my boobs, and she went, size F. I went, No, you're not. So she got boobs out to show me that they were a size F. So that was nice and parties as well. Thanks for that, Jenny. I love you.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Oh, that's good.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

Well, it's good to know the size of people's boobs. I know it can surprise you sometimes. I was surprised.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

It does, it surprises you. Yeah, I loved it. It was funny. Anyway, I brought something else up to show you because this is gonna make you laugh as well. Oh no. So so I'm on a bit of a fitness kick. And again, well, not again, you're always on one, always on one, and and so I'm all about the protein at the moment, trying to get more protein on the diet.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

Oh god, what is it? What is it? What is it? What are you gonna show me? Oh no. Vinto protein! Oh, for love of God.

SPEAKER_03 4:38

So I saw that vinto protein powder. I was like, yes, that's for me. And then I take now you're gonna hate this as well, but I have been doing this for ages and and I have found it to be very useful. Creatine. Creatine? Creatine.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

Creatine. I've not got an issue with creatine because I actually think there's scientific value in protein. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 4:56

But there is scientific value in taking protein as well, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Vim it's not what vimto. Is it vimto creatine? Vimto creatine. Whoa, how does that work? What what hang on a minute. So, what does it what do you do with it though?

SPEAKER_03 5:12

You just put it in a shaker drink and you just drink it like a tastes like Vimto. Yeah, it tastes like Vimto. Does it actually though? It does. So come on, fucking Vimto.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Give us a sponsorship deal. I'm not on uh the creatine out like alright. The the protein, I'm not so sure about this.

SPEAKER_03 5:32

Why?

SPEAKER_02 5:34

I don't know. So I'll tell you why.

SPEAKER_03 5:36

Let me tell explain. I'll let me give you my defence, case for the defence. Oh god, here we go. Go on. So been watching Instagram reels. No, I've not. My personal trainer and I have been discussing it. And um that's ChatGPT, by the way. And um one of my big issues is I can't eat enough protein at breakfast because I don't eat eggs. So eggs is your obvious breakfast protein. I'm not gonna cook bacon or I don't want to eat like chicken in the morning because that's rank. So ChatGPT suggested that I include a bit of protein powder with my yogurt and fruit that I have every day. So that's what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

There you go.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

So Greek yogurt's not enough. Well, it's also don't forget it's dairy-free Greek yogurt.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Oh, dairy free, yeah, I suppose. Yeah, so you haven't got that, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I do have some see? Are you trying to how many grams of protein are you here?

SPEAKER_03 6:37

I have absolutely no idea. I don't really know. I the scoop that comes in the pack, that's what I have.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

It's quite a lot of protein you have to have in a day, isn't it? I just find it all a bit overwhelming how much protein you're supposed to eat.

SPEAKER_03 6:49

The whole thing is overwhelming if you think about it too much.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

I don't, luckily.

SPEAKER_03 6:54

So it's right. Well, I don't. I literally, those are the things that I have, and that's me done, and I'm quite happy with that.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

I mean, I will say, when I went on my high protein diet, even though I was ill after it, when I was when I was doing it, I did feel better.

SPEAKER_03 7:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

So, you know, I just it's too much mental strain. Trying to think about gram growth.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

You're in a place where you've got a lot of mental strain at the moment. Your decision to take is massive, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 7:22

So yeah. I get that. I think April, I might be a little bit more on it. I'm testing it for you.

SPEAKER_03 7:29

When you come back, I'll be able to give you a full rundown.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

Vemto protein.

SPEAKER_03 7:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

I'm not sure about this. If VimtoProtein. I'm not sure about any of it. It does me add in. Why? Just all of it. It's not not not taking protein does me add in. Just the whole like bloody videos and oh god, it does me add in. People shaking things in your face. Take this. Oh, I've been working on this.

SPEAKER_03 7:56

And well, at least I didn't do this to you.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Oh no. You've got to go like that. What you gotta do is go like that with it.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

For the purposes of the listeners, we're being dickheads and we're just waving around. We don't worry about protein powder.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

This will certainly make it into social media.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

Oh, there you go. I don't worry then. God keep it away from me. Keep it away from me. I'm just gonna stick to beer. Is that gonna need protein in it? Is it got any protein in it? Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_03 8:43

Okay, I'll let you say that. If if that's gonna make you feel better.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

I don't give a shit, to be honest.

SPEAKER_03 8:49

They have made a protein beer now, though, haven't they? Oh of course they have. I watched um what's she called? Uh Gemma Atkinson did a show a few weeks ago. It was actually really good about the truth about protein. Yeah. The truth about protein, and um yeah, they've literally made protein everything. So she was debunking all the myths. Yeah, I do like her. Yeah, she's just normal. She is, and she's all about health, not looking good.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Yeah, she is, even though she does look good.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

She does look good, but that's the byproduct of the health first.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Yeah. Oh well, we're gonna have to sort ourselves out for Dubai. We're gonna have to be looking like where we are influenced, all these dickhead influencers who are stuck in Dubai in the bombs. Oh my god. This is not supposed to happen over here.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

Oh man, I know. I know.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

Oh no, it's no you uh oh, you've just realized you're in the Middle East.

SPEAKER_03 9:53

Sending thoughts and prayers. Sending thoughts and prayers, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

They're all out there drinking cocktails as well. Filming filming bombs. Did you see that? They're drinking cocktails, filming bombs. Like there were fireworks going off or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 10:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then what I suppose what would you do if that was happening? Get inside.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

But if it was like miles away. You wouldn't sit there watching it though, would you?

unknown 10:24

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Well, I think I'd get inside, some sort of like thing shelter in the basement. Yeah, I don't know. Anyway, we're not there. I've got this to contend with on Sunday, that leave me to it.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

I know. Right, let's let's de-stress you and talk about something else, shall we? Yeah, let's pick the topic.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

What are we talking about? Our relationships. I bet everyone's like I bet everyone's ears prick up when we say that. What do they say? Well, we're not to just just to start it off, we're not slagging off our husbands on this podcast.

SPEAKER_03 11:05

I'm also not going to pretend pretend that I'm a smug married couple either, I don't think. Because everyone knows that I have slagged my husband off a little bit over the years. Yeah, no, I'm not either.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

No. Is anybody a smug married couple? No, I don't think so. If they are false, it's all false.

SPEAKER_03 11:24

It is. So we're talking about marriage and being married for 20 plus years, which we both are. What so what's your number?

SPEAKER_02 11:35

23 this year.

SPEAKER_03 11:37

Is it?

SPEAKER_02 11:37

I know that makes me feel really old because that means it's my silver wedding in terms. That's like an old person, isn't it? That is so old. Well, Cheryl had her silver wedding. Oh, she did that in August. Oh, Cheryl's old. Cheryl's had a silver wedding. What kind of a person are you? You've had a silver wedding.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

Oh no, your granny and grandpa have had a silver wedding.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Why is this? How has this happened to me? Oh my god. Oh, silver wedding.

SPEAKER_03 12:05

Well, let's start, let's start with you and Dave. Tell let's tell the Dave and Katie love story.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

So we met in, I actually met Dave on a balcony of a backpackers hostel in Australia when he was 20 and I was 21. And then we kind of like split up and went on our separate journeys around Australia.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

When you saw him, did you like him immediately?

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, did. And and then we we sat around the table just chatting, and and actually we ended up chatting all night. Probably the first time we met, yeah. And then Dan was there, obviously, it was the day's like best mate, and Dan's well, we're still friends with Dan now, obviously, but um yeah, I did, yeah. We just kind of clicked together, didn't we? We were and then we kind of went off on our separate journeys, different people, blah blah blah. We won't go into that. Um and then we properly got together when we were in Sydney, and then I went to Thailand. No, he went home, I went to Thailand, and then we got back. I mean, we did like we got together, like having known each other for like a few months, but we got together being like really good mates. We'd already been like really good mates, haven't we? And then when we it was quite difficult at the beginning of our relationship, really, because he was in Bristol, he came back to Bristol, and I went back to Bolson, and it was like, right, what are we gonna do? And some quite big decisions really have to be made uh right from the start, really.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

We did a lot of travelling, didn't we? Like yeah, Bristol quite a lot in those early days. Yeah, yeah. They came up to us a couple of times. I remember dad staying at our house, I think.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

Yeah, he stayed with you. Yeah, he did, yeah. And then yeah, up and down on a bloody train. The amount of times I've got that train from Manchester to Bristol is just off the chart. And then I was and then we had the conversation of do we live do we live somewhere neutral or do you move up north or do I move down south? And I'd already decided I didn't want to stay up north, I already decided I kind of wanted to move somewhere different. I hadn't had my heart set on Bristol necessarily, but it just kind of and I thought, oh, I do I like Bristol and I did, I really liked it then. Um and that was it really. I just said let's just give it a go. There's a lot of like but just big decisions we had to make quite early on. When did you when did you know that you loved him? When did I know? When when when we were in Sydney before we kind of split out and it was a very small, small space of time, really. Like in within a month, and then as soon as we'd gone like our separate ways, it was like, oh no. It was almost that kind of realization that actually we you can't see yourself being without them.

SPEAKER_03 15:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

And your life when you look forward is includes them. I think that's you you start to realise it, don't you?

SPEAKER_03 15:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

And I did, I got that, and then it was like, right, well, if I and I'm very much like if I've decided something, that's it. That's that's it, isn't it? Yeah, and that's what so that's what we did. But when like I was diagnosed with diabetes, and that was literally like six months after that.

SPEAKER_03 15:40

Pretty much as you moved down, wasn't it? Yeah, six months after I moved to Bristol, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

Yeah, and that was a big deal, really. Because he just had to look after me, he had to do he had to look after me, and it's just quite a big thing to take on. I always thought at the time. I was like, oh god, you're taking me on like I was some sort of cripple. I wasn't, but that's what it felt like at the time. Yeah, yeah, there was just like so just a lot of big stuff that we worked through quite early on in our relationship, but I think because we did, it cemented it in a lot of ways, and it was like, right, we're gonna be team, we're a team now.

SPEAKER_03 16:19

Yeah, I remember, I always remember thinking you were so like this is gonna sound like a a weird description, but you were so grown up in your relationship together very quickly.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

Quickly, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:32

I don't mean in like a boring way, but you your relationship was a very mature relationship very quickly. And compared to the rest of us, you were very settled much sooner than anyone else in our friendship group, weren't you?

SPEAKER_02 16:48

Yeah, yeah. But I think we just had to be though. Because we weren't like we were thrown together straight away anyway, but just because we were we were away from home. And then it was that decision maker, it was the big decisions I mean to make. And I do think when you've got to make those big decisions together, you well, you either stick by them or you don't, do it. And that's kind of what happened. And you've just got to make it work, you have to like relationships are not uh an easy breeze.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

They're not an easy breeze. What do you think's been the toughest point for you like in your relationship?

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Oh so probably when the kids were young, when the kids were little, because when the kids were little, it was like Dave was working really, really like ridiculous hours, and he didn't get home until like like when the kids had gone to bed. And it kind of did create this like just issue between us. And then he he used to get upset because he wasn't like he he wasn't with the kids, and I do think I I found that hard, yeah. And he probably did as well. Um but yeah, I don't I I think that you do you have to that that kind of thing you really do have to work through. And it was like the party time as well, everyone was still partying, yeah. So it it was uh we were out of we we were early, really.

SPEAKER_03 18:22

We said this last week, didn't you? Because you were the first to have ki well no, Cheryl was the first, but you were kind of the first to have two in our group, two kids, and and they were so close together.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

I remember thinking Yeah, I know, yeah, they were so close together. 19 months between them, yeah. 19 months between them, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:41

And that's tough, that's really tough when they're listed.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

Yeah, yeah. And I just felt like it was all on me, and then he would like so we go, he'd go out and stuff at the weekends, and then it but uh we did we we did used to talk about it, and it would just be like, right, I I'm like you're pissing me off. Like, I I want I want to go, but the thing with Dave, he was never ever he would never say to me, Oh, well, you can't go off with your friends, like you're not like you're not allowed to do that. He he would and encourage me like to come and see you, like I would come up, come up and see you and just get a weekend off, and you come and see me, and that's what kind of helped us, I think. Yeah, yeah, because it's it's hard, isn't it? Did you find that with yours though? With the kids, yeah. No, when when you're with your relationship, the hard parts when you were little.

SPEAKER_03 19:34

Yeah, I think um I can't I don't really know what's been the toughest part for us, really. I think probably more recent years have been tougher, um kids-wise. I think it's hard, isn't it? Because we we had a lot of help, and I I was always dead conscious with you being where you were that you didn't have us, you didn't have your mum and dad, and you had you had to really between you and with I suppose with Dave's mum and dad kind of carry that childcare. We had a lot of help with childcare, um, with my parents and Neil's parents. So when they were little, it wasn't easier, but it was different, and I felt like I had a lot of support around us. Right, yeah. Whereas as they've gotten older, and I certainly find decision making more difficult now that they're older, because I feel like the decisions are so much more important when they're older. Yeah, yeah. Whereas, you know, whether you're gonna give them bloody carrot sticks or breadsticks.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

More black and white when they're little, innit?

SPEAKER_03 20:35

Yeah, it's it's neither here nor there, is it? Whereas now it's uh should I advise you to do a well like going back to our last episode, a PE GCSE or an English GCSE, or you know, it's like big stuff. It's but it feels quite big now, and I I do I find it I find I'm thinking about things more than I probably did when they were little. Definitely. But do you discuss that between you both there? Um we do, yeah. No, we do. We we do talk about everything. I mean I tend to make most of the decisions and then tell you what we do. This is how our relationship works. Um no, we don't. We do talk things over. Um but I think naturally, because I've got two girls, they will come to me first about things.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

Yeah, true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:31

And and I think I do think that's tough at times for Neil, because I do think it's outnumbered. Outnumbered, maybe a bit left out of some of that decision making process. Um but it it's kind of natural, isn't it, for for the girls to do that. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

But then you have like you've managed 20 years together, so you know Yeah, 20 years. Or longer. But then you two moved in quite quickly, didn't you, together? I do remember. Moved really quickly.

SPEAKER_03 22:01

Um, it's like six months, wasn't it? Like, yeah, well, we took well, yeah, pretty much. So we we so I met Neil. We're going back more than that. I knew Neil from when I worked in the hotel um at Georgian House, and he worked in a slightly different part of the hotel. And I remember that he was always like everyone's heart throb, but he always had a girlfriend, like always had a girlfriend, and everybody always fancied him. So I kind of knew of him, but that was like I just knew of him, like I never really thought of him as anything other than just someone that people fancied. And then I bumped into him when we were we'd just come back from a holiday, and we were out in Bolton, and we saw Waz, who's one of our one of your ex-school friends, Warren, who's one of Neil's old best friends, and they were out together, so um was was trying to chat me up, I think. If you listen to this mark, and that's wrong, I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure. And I was just completely ignoring him and talking to Neil, and Neil and I just really hit it off that night, yeah. And we he and we just a bit like you and Dave, really. That after that night, we went back to Mark's, and then I think it was my birthday, and we went out the next night for my birthday, just me and him on a date. We just talked, like literally talked and talked and talked and talked and talked. And we'll talk about in crisis talks. So I want to talk about first loves and all that kind of thing, because I think that's really funny. But I genuinely think Neil's the first boy, boyfriend, that I ever really properly loved. Like all the people that had come before him did like nothing. Um and I remember, so we were probably about three or four months into our relationship, and he lived in oh god, what is it called? Rottenstall, which was probably a good 30 minutes drive from where I lived in West Horton, and he didn't drive because he'd lost his licence, which is a whole other podcast. Um so I used to go up and see him or go and pick him up. For him to come to see me, it was at least two buses. Like he'd have to get a bus to Bolton, then a bus out of Bolton. Um, so it was always a bit of a faff seeing each other, and it was so we a bit almost a bit like you, but on a lesser scale, like you were going to someone's house, or he was coming to my house. There was no kind of effort had to be made. Yeah, effort had to be made. And I'd had a really shit day at work, and this was the the point that I knew that I loved him. So I'd had a really shit day at work. I can't remember what happened, I think I was being made redundant or something, something it was a really bad day. And I'd spoke to him on the phone, and I'd been I was just like, Oh, just feel like really depressed, and he was trying to cheer me up, and and he said, I'll give you a bell in a bit and just see how you're doing. And that was that literally put the phone down, my brother rang and spoke to my brother for half an hour. And as I'm talking to my brother, there was a knock at the door, and I opened the door and it was Neil, and he'd literally got off the phone to me, got on the bus, and come to see me. And I was like, anyone that I mean, that's it, isn't it? That's the moment where you've done that for you. Yeah, and so yeah. Yeah, and not long after that, but just because of the practicalities, he moved in with me, just because it was easier, it was just easier.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

Yeah, I do remember it, yeah. I do remember you moving in.

SPEAKER_03 25:27

Oh god, this is quick. This is quick. I know, and it was it was probably but yeah, yeah, it was probably it's right. And then we went to so that was 2003, and then we went to New York just before or the new year of the next year, so that was what, maybe 14 months or something, 15 months, and that's where he proposed. So it and that's so it all happened really quickly, and then we got married quite quickly just because we got the venue, and it was like, well, we might as well, why wait? Like, there's no point waiting for 10 years, is there? You might as well just get married. So quick. So in the space of two years, I met him and married him, and that was so well.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

I suppose we did fac well I w no, I met him in ninety end of right at the end, so like beginning of ninety-nine, and then we were married in two thousand and three.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

And then baby in two thousand and four. Yeah. We did it all very traditionally. We were talking about that the other week. Yeah, you were about how like how traditional it was, yeah without even really meaning to be at all. Yeah. We just because we're not necessarily really traditional people, really, but we did really traditionally.

SPEAKER_03 26:44

Yeah, and do you know what actually? Maybe that was probably our hardest point after we'd got married was babies, because we struggled to have babies. Yeah. And I think that probably put a lot of pressure on our relationship in a way that s so many people probably wouldn't even think about because it becomes such a uh an unspoken about issue between you because neither of you want to upset the other one, and it it's it's just a really challenging thing to deal with as a couple that yeah, and then you you go through the stress of doing the IVF and all that kind of thing. So, I mean, we were so lucky with Freya and getting pregnant, literally the first round of IVF, first go at it, first embryo pregnant, and that was that. And I think probably on reflection between us, we've never gone back and looked at that period and talked about it. We probably should really trauma, isn't it? That you've not got to be a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

Oh, 100%, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's a difficult, I mean, everybody says it is, it's awful, isn't it? And you probably don't discuss it because you like the fatigue that must occur in that conversation. I can't imagine.

SPEAKER_03 28:04

Yeah, and it's so hard, and you you're desperately trying to because someone always feels responsible, even though you'd never hold them responsible. Like there's that level of accountability in the relationship, isn't there? Where well it's my fault I can't get pregnant. Yeah, and and but it's never anyone's fault, and and it's just it's it's hard, isn't it? But I think I don't know that I've got any lifelong lessons to to share with anyone as a result of our relationship, but I think you've just got to what you mean to keep a to keep a relationship going, you mean yeah, I think you well, uh you've got to be a team.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

I think you have to be a team, yeah, and you've got to like back each other's corner all the time, haven't you? Really? Yeah, you've got to be there for them through the it is. I mean it is true, you've we are gotta be there through thick and thin, really. Good stuff, bad stuff, you've got to be there, haven't you? You've got to think you weather those storms together, yeah, and you do come out the other side and you do look at each other, and you know, you're a bit battered and bruised, but you think, God, we've just done that, and yeah, thank you for being there, you know. And it is that I I do think that cements a lot of your relationships.

SPEAKER_03 29:23

You've got to think about the big picture, I think, with a relationship. I think it's got to be because the niggles, I remember my mum saying to me years and years ago about I don't think I'd met Neil at this point, but about husbands and who you end up with, and I can't remember how she worded it, so it's probably wrong what I'm saying, but it was something along the lines of just if they've got a habit that irritates you now, think about that in 20 years' time.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

Like, and I always think about I'm laughing at you, no offence, but you used to be the classic of I don't like his socks, I'm gonna not speak to him again tomorrow. I was gonna talk about this for God's sake, Katie. He's got like weird socks on, he's fine, he's a nice lad.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

No, we're just gonna talk about this in crisis talks, but I was like, they used to they called me Chandler at university because there was a like a an episode of Friends where Chandler was like, Oh no, she know her nose is too big or her eyelashes are too long, or you were a nightmare, and that was a hundred percent me. But it was for me, it was always it wasn't the looks, it was always they're too nice. I was like and I've ended up with the nicest man in the world, yeah. No, you have, which is so ironic, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Oh god, he just wanted a bit of novelty. Well, he did have a driving van when you met him.

SPEAKER_03 30:37

I know he's a bit on a knee with a artist and he was like moulded into a boring thing, haven't I? Neil don't are you listening to this, Neil? I know he knows. I don't think that really it's tough, isn't it? I think um any long-term relationship is tough, even long-term friendships are hard, aren't they? And yeah, like you go through ups and downs, and you might not speak to someone for ages, or you might you know fall out with someone over something, but I think anything, any relationship you've got to put the work in, haven't you?

SPEAKER_02 31:13

You've got to put the requires effort. Everything requires effort. No, it doesn't and I think with the with the long-term relationship, if you start to I think if people start to give up the yeah, you the the rot's gonna set in, isn't it? You've got to you have got to make a bit of an effort with each other. Like I think and and and like as you get older, like now, your relationship starts to change. I mean, look at me and Dave, now we're gonna be on our own again. So I you know, we've had no, I'm gonna start crying.

unknown 31:45

Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

Um, so you know, you've had 21 years with somebody else in your life and your relationship, and now like in a month's time, it's not gonna be there anymore.

unknown 31:57

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

They are still gonna be there, but well they are, aren't they?

SPEAKER_03 32:00

And that but that's a really good point because your kids, it's funny, isn't it? And I I suppose I haven't really contemplated it because I'm not at that point in life yet, but it you have to really think about it because you you are part of a a bigger team, aren't you? There's particularly the four and our four, and we are a team of four. We're like, and then that one of the team members is gonna go, and that that's absolutely fine. I would never not want them to go, but equally, then that shape changes the shape of your team. So, what do you do now? Like, how like what's your formation? What do you do? How do you interact?

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Like it's yeah, and you have to look at each other and go, right, do I actually still like you? Do we like doing the same things? Do we enjoy each other's company? Are we comfortable with each other? Like, and and you you do, you have to look at each other because at the end of the day, like, are you like are you gonna look at like are you gonna be alright when you're 80? I mean, me and Dave do a lot of things together, to be honest. So I think you know, that's what's we have continued to just invest in our relationship. We haven't been sidelined by the kids and focus on the kids. We have like actually put some effort into each other, yeah. Which you kind of sometimes I think when you're in that like quagmire of young children, you do look at each other and think, Oh, this is a bit of an effort, can't really be asked to go out for a meal. Um I'd rather just go to bed or I'm knackered or whatever, but you do, you have to do it because it's not it's a blinking of an eye and be looking at each other going, right, it's me and you now.

SPEAKER_03 33:31

Yep. If you've not done that effort, if you've not spent that time, it's almost like starting again, isn't it? And if you start again and you think, actually, I don't like it that much.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

I don't even know who you are, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

Then that that's that's a bad thing. I think I I agree with that, but I also do think that you need a level of something outside your your relationship as well that that you're not relying on them for because what do you think about otherwise? Women who um in my family who are kind of the older generation, the generation above me, or or even above that. So they're sort of my mum's kind of line, I suppose, where their husbands have died and it they've they're left with nothing because their whole life was wrapped around that one individual. And I think that's not healthy either, is it? You need to even have that external network and activities and hobbies and whatever it might be, because yeah, you can't you can't put the pressure on someone that you're responsible for their happiness. That that's not fair.

SPEAKER_02 34:35

No, absolutely, you're right, yeah. But we never have, like you and I never have never we like we've obviously still got our friendship because of that, because we've like invested in each other, and we still had the girls' weekends with like I you you I still do lots of things that don't involve Dave and he does lots of things that don't involve me, and that is absolutely right, yeah. Because what do you talk about when you see each other? What are you doing? Um shopping, um so am I. Your Honorama like if you've got like that's a bit flippant, but if you've got like other friends and other like all you you've got your whole other life going on, you've got your mates, you've always got like different things going on and stuff to talk about, and yeah. It can't just be the two of you, can it forever? No. Well it can, but I mean like your whole entire life, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh you could talk about this forever.

SPEAKER_03 35:44

I know it's it makes you really think deeply. I'm really struggling after my wine now to get my words out.

SPEAKER_02 35:50

It makes you really think deeply, doesn't it? I think this is the first like vaguely drunk podcast we've done.

SPEAKER_03 35:55

Well, no, it's not our first first ever podcast we were drunk.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

Oh no, I was yeah.

unknown 36:00

Take it back.

SPEAKER_03 36:03

Taking it back. Well, I suppose what can we summarise from our conversation? I suppose it's it is about investing in your relationship, but also investing in the stuff around your relationship. And yeah. Do you know one of the things my mum always said, and I haven't heeded this because Neil and I often go to bed on an argument. Not on an argument, but my mum always used to say never go to bed on an argument, never like you've got to get it out and talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

Oh, you can't do that. I agree, I agree. Never leave the house, never ever like storm out of the house and slam the door. No, no, I wouldn't do that, and like just no. No. I mean, I th we probably have, if I'm honest. When I look back, we've definitely we've definitely done this. I don't know why I'm sitting here like some sort of amazing human. I've definitely done this. Yeah, I'm just turning into the smug marriage. Oh dear, but you didn't you know you shouldn't do it. No, I think my old my old head is coming into this. But when I look back when I was younger, I definitely told them to fuck off and like well, yeah, but you grow out of that. You have to do that as well because sometimes they do need to f off.

SPEAKER_03 37:22

Yeah. On that note, it's time to say goodbye. Relationship advice with midlife to a crisis. Sometimes you they just have to fuck off.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

Just leave me alone. Oh, go on holiday without me, please. I need a week. That's what that's what my friends always always say. She always goes goes, Oh my god, he's going away with work for four days. I am absolutely over the moon. Could never be happier. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 37:55

Yeah, because she's just got the house to herself, just worry about herself. Sometimes it is easier, and we'll say goodbye in a minute, but we have this conversation at work sometimes. It is easier if you know they're not going to be there, that they're not there, because actually I find I'm I find I'm more efficient when he's not there.

SPEAKER_02 38:19

Yeah, I know what you mean. But I wouldn't want that forever. No, I wouldn't, no, no. Just for a few days. Right, anyway, come on, let's say goodbye. Time to go. And then we'll move into crisis talks and we're gonna talk about when we were young. Is this right? Yeah, first looks first crushes. I can't even remember, but I'll try. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

All right. Well see you on crisis talks, babe. See you on crisis talks. Bye. Bye bye, bye bye.