#22: Relationships As A Vehicle For Spiritual Development

On this episode, Isaac and Jessica crack open the lie that our romantic relationships are for our comfort. They delineate the difference between relationships that yield familiarity, and relationships that ignite growth. The path to spiritual development is paved by the mirrors that relationship presents, but only devoted students learn the lessons that present. 

This conversation will challenge you, call you forward, and help you see the seeds of growth that populate not only your romantic relationships, but your relationships with family, friends, and your work.

They offer actionable advice on choosing a partner compatible with the spiritual path, and the daily devotion that spiritual relationships require.

Get out your pen and paper and buckle up, because this conversation might just change everything.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Sometimes leaving is the initiation for both parties. Sometimes leaving is the loving thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 0:07

We think that creating comfort in the moment is love, but it is not.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

One of the reasons that people suffer in relationship is because they're approaching their relationships for comfort, and the relationship's primary function is not comfort.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

If you expect your parents to show up for you as well as your partner, they will fail you every time.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

The more reliant you are on a partner for comfort, the worse spiritual student you are.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

I'm wondering how many people feel called out right now. Welcome to the Well Worship Man podcast, where men come to build unshakable presence, become the rock in their relationships, and build a legacy that lasts beyond their years. Here, we explore the path to mature masculinity through humble power, daily devotion, and unwavering integrity.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Thanks, baby. And before we get started today, make sure that you are following the podcast on your streaming platform and leave us a review. It helps us out a lot. What are we talking about today, baby?

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Today we are talking about relationships as a path to spiritual evolution.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Yeah, this is the backbone of what we teach and relationships encompass first, relationship to self, which maybe we'll talk about on this podcast, but probably not. And two relationships to others. It can be to family members, parents, children, friends, or to a romantic partner. And that's what we're gonna start this conversation off with today. But a lot of this will apply outside of just romantic relationships.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Yeah, I was thinking about this podcast right before we started. And I would love to start with a little visual about really what this means. So when I think about relationships as the vehicle for this evolutionary process, it's like there is always some sort of challenge that then catalyzes the evolution. And the visual that comes to mind is you know, imagine you're playing a video game and you walk through the level of the game that you're at, and then at the end of the level that you're playing, there is some sort of character that says, okay, come with me this way. But you're not actually supposed to go there. It's just a trick of the game. You're supposed to go forward and like catch the flag and complete complete the level. But you go with this character and this character takes you on a ride and you end up back at the start of the same level. And then you play the level again. And then you go through this character again, and then you start back at the same level. And what people are doing in relationships currently is they are playing this sort of like level in the game where every time a circumstance arises, they're showing up the same way. And it's taking them back to square one instead of choosing to show up differently, which would actually change their life. It would change their relationship, it would change their life, it would change the way that the world responds to them. And that is yeah, the image that comes to mind when I think of this like catalyst for growth. It's like, are you choosing to always be tempted by the temptress? Or are you walking forward to, you know, complete the mission?

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Yeah. And this trickster, this temptress shows up in a few different ways. It can show up as comfort, it can show up as familiarity, it can show up as conscious or unconscious obedience to your protective mechanisms. And I think about people who say, you know, I have a type, right? And often they don't have a type, they have a trauma response, right? And that character shows up at the end of the level, and they end up repeating the same relationship with a different person. And until one chooses differently, relationship isn't a path to spiritual development. As long as you are tempted by that trickster and return to the start of the level, there's no development at all, nonetheless, spiritual development because you're not beating the level.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Right. Yeah. And I love that you've started this by explaining that this plays out in all relationships. You know, partnership is something that we talk about a lot because we're in partnership and it is something that hits people in a certain way. But I'd love to start with examples of family, actually, because family is a place where people, no matter how elite they get at this process of evolution, when it comes down to family, that mindset of, oh, my parents or ugh my sister, if only they would see things my way, then. And that narrative is that that trickster. That narrative is the hole that you fall into that prevents you from accessing this next layer. And so when we talk about family relationships as a path to spiritual evolution, what comes up for you?

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Yeah. I used to say that romantic relationship is the greatest vehicle for spiritual development. Recently, I've shifted that to our relationships to our family, especially our parents, are tied. We just typically spend less time around our parents than we do our romantic partner. And I'll just speak for myself. My relationship with my parents is one that I've really leaned into a lot the past year or two. And you're right. Before I was claiming responsibility of my relationship with my parents as a path for spiritual development, it was very much like I have the tools, I'm doing the work. I wish my parents would do the work. I wish they would take the lead. They should take the lead. They're the mature adults. I'm just the youngest son. So for me, there was this separation of false superiority. And in that, I was shucking responsibility. And that's a huge part of relationships as a path to spiritual development. There has to be radical responsibility claimed, likely for the things that now don't feel like they're your responsibility at all, or they shouldn't be your responsibility. And again, like that's the victim. Every time we shuck responsibility, we remove our power. And until we claim it, there's no development.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Yeah, I was writing the other morning for this course that we're creating over the summer, and some of the words that came up is your narrative is that everyone else is the problem. Because you don't want to admit that you are the problem, but you're not the problem. You are creating the problem. And there's a difference in that. It's like we don't want to claim responsibility because we think that if we claim responsibility, we're admitting that we are the problem. And that is linked to so many core beliefs of unworthiness, like lack of success, shame, all of these things. And really differentiating that claiming responsibility doesn't mean you're the problem, but it does claim responsibility for creating it. And I love what you're saying about, you know, when you start taking accountability and taking responsibility for the experience at hand, it will probably mean taking responsibility for some things that don't feel like your fault, that you don't want to claim responsibility for. But the question isn't, is this all your fault? The question is, where am I contributing to this? Where is this my fault?

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Yeah, it's looking at yourself more discreetly than feels comfortable. As you were talking, it makes me think of, you know, there's a piece of trash on the ground and it's like, I'm not picking it up, like I didn't put it there. You know what I mean? But the next level is I didn't put it there. I don't know who put it there, but I'm going to pick it up. And that's being a good relative. Perangi introduced us to this phrasing of be a good relative, meaning that we are all in relation to one another. And being a good relative is caring about a better world, caring about a better ecosystem, a better network of everyone. And from that paradigm, it doesn't matter who dropped the trash, it doesn't matter whose fault it is, it doesn't matter if it's your responsibility. What matters is that you have the power to be a part of the solution. And in family, to be a part of a deepening connection, to be a part of interrupting the ancestral wounds, curses, patterns, whatever you want to call them, and showing your family that there is something else possible.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

I'm seeing this imagery of, you know, when I think of the ideal family ecosystem. You know, the ideal family ecosystem is like everyone is just in love with life and each other and themselves, and they can't wait to see their family and they can't wait to be of service to one another, no matter what their birth order or their rank in the house. You know, it's like the whole ecosystem cares for the newborn babies, the whole ecosystem cares for the elders. Everyone is a good relative to everyone. And when it comes down to the family system, there's often a huge sense of frustration of that not being the case. Whether people are aware of it or not, it feels like that is really where the anger and frustration comes from, is somewhere internally, we know that that's how we're meant to function. And the ecosystem is not functioning that way. And there's frustration about why can't we have nice things? And it really comes down to am I showing up as a good relative? Like it's such a great checkpoint because if I think about really any point in my life with my family, I mean, it's forever improving. But I would still say, am I the relative that I want to be? No, there's always room for growth. I'm certainly a better relative to my whole ecosystem than I was 10 years ago when I was lost in my trauma and everything was about my own experience. But if we check that as a measuring stick or a gold standard, that family life that I dream about, that version of me is showing up in a very specific way. And the quote unquote test of the level that we're on is am I showing up the way that I would be if I were already in the next level? Because that's how you get to the next level is you show up as if it's there, you know? And if I were being, you know, a better relative at any phase in my journey, it probably would have looked, definitely would have looked a lot less like trying to solve my family's problems and much more like being of service to them where they're at. How can I support you? Now, how can I change you? How can I support you?

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Yeah, the big question that's coming up as you talked is what are you helping to normalize in your family? Through your behavior, are you normalizing sweeping things under the rug? Are you normalizing unspoken tension? Are you normalizing blaming others and abdicating responsibility and wishing someone else would do it and leaving trash on the ground? Or are you normalizing being of service? Are you normalizing cleaning up a mess without needing to know whose it is, without assigning blame? Are you normalizing honest, vulnerable, courageous conversations? Because you are normalizing something through your behavior and the way that you act in your family, and you may be the one who's acting abnormally for a time. That time may be years. It may take years for your family to recognize that not only are you acting abnormally, but you're acting in a way that can improve the family system, right? And that is one of the tests of spiritual development, is without seeing overt results, can you continue to act in integrity time in and time out? When you get knocked down, when your parents don't appreciate the way that you're showing up, can you review the event? Can you return with a bigger heart, with more of a commitment to normalizing the behaviors that you want to see in your family? Can you go again and again and again without promise of the results? It's like the Bhagavad Gita says act for action's sake, surrender the fruits of your action.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

There's an interesting thing in the family system, specifically, where you're linked. You know, when we shift into partnership in a few minutes, that conversation is a bit different because you're not inherently linked to a partner. But in your family system, you share DNA. Like even if you set boundaries and stop talking to them, you are linked to them. And you can't undo that no matter what your actions or distance say. And there are obviously different phases of healing the family. You know, I would say that my moving away from my family was probably one of the healthiest things that I needed in order to be able to really feel the love with them was some physical distance. And there's a lot out there that's like, well, if your mom or dad isn't showing up in XYZ way, then you can just cut them out of your life. And that is true. But I think that an important part of this conversation is that is meant to be a phase. And everyone's life is different for sure. And there are exceptions to every statement. But for 90% of the world, we are meant to heal our familial ecosystem in some way. And the distance is meant to be a phase so that wounds can heal, so that you can return with less wounding and greater capacity to show up with love, so that even if your mom says that thing that she always says about you, or your dad does that thing that he always does, you now have the ability to not respond the way that you always used to, and instead can respond with love or curiosity or having the hard conversation and showing up in a new way and not showing up in the way you've always shown up that has always brought you back to the beginning again, usually means being uncomfortable. And that is an inherent part of the evolutionary path. Growth is uncomfortable. You know, there are discomforts in a pregnant woman when she is growing a baby. Children have growing pains when they're having growth spurts, and spiritual development is no different. It is uncomfortable. And so if you are to say yes to the initiatory path of relationships, you are also saying yes to discomfort. And it's so that you can grow. It's definitely not for nothing, but knowing that ahead of time is important.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

And no matter how much healing you think you've done independently, the wounds that happen in relationship can only be fully healed in relationship. So the wounds that happen in your family can only be healed fully in your family. And you don't have to do it. This is the thing. This spiritual path is one that you must choose. You could isolate yourself from your family for the rest of your life. But you'll never know what might happen if you were to reapproach those relationships with this gear of this is for my growth. And it's going to be uncomfortable. It's going to be a pressure cooker, in fact. You may think that you're prepared. And then when you step back into that arena, all your old reactivities reignite.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Yeah, I always say that returning to the family ecosystem is this checkpoint of well, how much have you healed really? How much have you grown really? Are you showing up exactly the same way or are you showing up differently? How well can you hold yourself? It's one thing to hold yourself in your own life, in your own community where you've built connections that are healthy mirrors for you and have healthy relationships and speak the same language. But when you've returned home and people treat you as if you're still 12, are you still able to hold that stability? Are you still able to hold that sovereignty, that love? And you probably won't be. But if it's better than last time, then that's good. And to your point of like needing to say yes, there is something that we were chatting about yesterday where this path is something you must say yes to. And I also inherently believe that there are some people who just are meant to walk this path, and some people who aren't, at least in this lifetime. And if you are meant to walk this path, you can say no as many times as you want, but you will never have life satisfaction. And that is where trusting in like the divine creator and the orchestration of great spirit comes to play because the victim can also come in. It's like, I don't want to. Like, why do I always have to do this hard thing? I just want life to be easy. See, those people, their life is easy. But the truth is that if my soul came to this earth to evolve in this lifetime, then the opportunity to evolve will continue to present itself. And I can say no for my entire life, but only when I say yes and choose to walk the path that's meant for me, do I get to really feel satisfaction that is inherent in the seeking of humans.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Yeah. Thank you for talking about the spiritual and the dharmic component of this. There are the grand spiritual questions: where do we go after this? Where do we come from? Why do we suffer? And one of the reasons that people suffer in relationship is because they're approaching their relationships for comfort when really that individual has been selected to be on the spiritual path. And the relationship's primary function is not comfort, it is spiritual growth and self-understanding. And every time we reject the path that's meant for us, we will suffer. And there still is some pain on our path, but there isn't unnecessary suffering. The suffering that comes by continuing to choose something that's not for us or continuing to try to create something that isn't going to be sourced.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

I think this is a good shift into partnership because I don't think many people go to their family for comfort. The people who can bless them, that's a gift. Um, but people certainly do seek comfort in partnership. And that has a lot to do with, I think, the way we've been programmed of like partnership is the dream and everything will be okay once you reach partnership. And for the people who aren't on this path, certainly partnership gets to be a source of comfort. But it also for some people on this path or who aren't on this path, partnership is a source of pain, and that's just their karma in this lifetime. And the beauty of people who are on this path and say yes to this path is that partnership gets to be a source of what feels like internal satisfaction. And there is a lot of comfort that we have, but it's not like the same type of comfort as people are thinking when they are outsourcing themselves to receive comfort in partnership.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Yeah. That type of comfort is kind of turning a blind eye comfort. It's a naive comfort. It's the type of comfort that creates a false sense of peace in the relationship by not addressing what is uncomfortable by going along. To get along. I was in a really comfortable relationship once, and I was a people pleaser, and I said yes to things that I didn't actually want, and I disconnected from my emotions in order to keep floating along. And I was really comfortable. We didn't fight, we had a nice home life, nice trips, and then crisis. All the signals I had blown by, all the red flags that I had ignored, all came to the surface within a very condensed period. And that created much suffering, more suffering than was necessary for the next cycle of my growth to occur. And so for those that are meant to be in this pleasantly ignorant space of comfort, I think there are people that can enjoy life that way. For those of us that are called to be on a spiritual path, that primarily comfort-focused relationship will eventually lead to crisis where everything that you have not addressed, everything that you have ignored and tried to breeze by, will come to the surface and create a magnificent opportunity for initiation and also a very destructive one.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

And the thing about this process of you know the crisis or the initiation or being asked to step forward is that it's not eternally present. It's not like, oh, once I see the opportunity to step forward, I can hang out here as long as I want and take it whenever I want. It presents in phases. And this is where people get stuck in their partnerships of comfort because the partnership itself will feel comfortable and it will feel connecting and it will feel like it is the thing. And then all of the little cues that have been brushed under the rug or silence will come to a head and this doorway will open to leave the partnership essentially and walk the path that you're meant to walk. But this little trickster or temptress will be in the corner saying, But don't you remember how comfortable it is here? Don't you remember how nice it is sometimes? And the story that gets written is well, this is just a phase. Like it will go back to being comfortable. And that is true, but it won't go back to being comfortable forever. It will go back to being comfortable until the door opens again. And while you're in that phase of comfort, the opportunity for evolution will not present itself. You will be happy enough. And there will be other things in life that are probably a bit in disarray because you're not really in alignment with your soul's path, but you'll be happy enough. And maybe trying to solve the problems in community or in money or whatever, when the root is actually you're not saying yes to your soul's path. And then the next time the door presents, it's actually much harder to walk through. There has been more time spent in this relationship. You've devoted more of your resources to the relationship. You've maybe taken the next phase of moving in, getting a dog, getting engaged, getting married, so on and so forth. And every next phase is harder to unwind because as you walk through that familiar level, there are roots grown between the two of you. And the roots are not healthy. The roots are not stable, but they are roots intertwining the two of you nonetheless. And so if you don't say yes to the door the first time it presents itself, you will go back to comfort. That is true. And then the discomfort that presents the next time will be even more challenging to palate.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Yeah. The more reliant you are on a partner for comfort, the worse spiritual student you are. The more lessons you will miss. And the more severe the crises will have to become in order for spirit to deliver the lesson to your dense skull because you're so reliant on your partner for comfort. And when they serve you anything that's not comfortable, what do you do? You blame. You are supposed to create comfort for me when actually they're delivering a lesson from spirit for you. And now you're blaming them for shaking your tidy little snow globe when really you're not in a fucking feather bed. You're in a spiritual incubator, and there's a lesson for you to learn.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

I'm wondering how many people feel called out right now because I am feeling called out right now from past relationships. That is so potent, you know, and being in the spiritual incubator of the relationship is really what it is. It's like spirit is prepping you for the next phase. Spirit is prepping you for the initiation. And we often say that spirit speaks softly. But then spirit doesn't. If you get good at listening when spirit speaks softly, spirit will only ever speak softly to you. If you ignore the whispers because, oh, they're not that big of a deal, or it wasn't that big of a deal that we had that little rupture and it feels fine now, or you know, this thing isn't feeling totally right, but everything else is good. Slowly but surely, those whispers build in volume. And then there is a catastrophe. And for some people, the quote unquote catastrophe will even still not be that big of a deal. And so they return to the beginning of the level, they play the game again, and then the next catastrophe is even worse. But oh, we made it through the last one, so we can make it through this one. They walk through the level again, the next one, even worse. And spirit will continue to speak louder and louder and louder and louder until it finally breaks through because that's your path. And while we have sovereign choice on the way that we play our path, there is some predestination about like what we're here for, this dharma that you're talking about, this piece of us that's inherent to who we are and the way we are showing up in this lifetime that cannot be changed. And if you are someone who is being invited to play this specific game of relational evolution, you can say no as many times as you want, but saying no doesn't change the game.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

Every time a person is asked to speak truth, act in truth, and they do otherwise, they say no. The karmic debt accumulates, spirit is forced to speak louder. And forcing spirit to speak louder, there's a debt that you pay on that. Right? Spirit does not want to be forced by our ignorance to speak louder. So there's this karmic debt that accumulates, right? And every time we're asked to speak or act in truth and we do it, we clear karma. We're able to move through our relationships with more freedom, with less resistance to truth. Because at the beginning, because we haven't been living in obedience to spirit, there's a lot of resistance to truth. There's the tightness in our diaphragm, there is everything within our bodies telling us no, go back, you can push this aside, you can find another way. There's only one way. And once you know it, the longer you delay, like you're saying, the louder spirit has to be, the harder spirit has to work, and spirit doesn't want to have to work hard. That is not the universal principle. We're meant to be living in harmony with spirit and urgently moving with the energy instead of getting behind it and resisting it.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

So someone's listening to this and they're thinking, oops, that's me. And so, how do we start saying yes to these doorways? Because it's hard, you know, if you haven't already been doing it, it feels quite like a weight, especially that first one. I always tell my clients, you just need reps. Like once you have reps, you can start to trust the whispers of spirit. You can start to trust your instincts that say, this looks perfect, but something in me that I can't explain is telling me X, Y, Z. And there will always be trust falls. Like the trust falls are never going to be comfortable. But you and I have been through enough trust falls that we know, okay, I can trust the trust fall. But in that first hump of taking the leap, it really feels quite impossible because there are no repetitions. There's no proof that is perceptible at that phase that I'm going to be caught. It just feels like I'm gonna hurt myself. I'm gonna hurt the person sitting across from me. I'm going to have this huge like ego death of who I am in community because the person that everyone thought I was and that I thought I was apparently I'm not. And it's a lot to move through that first layer of resistance, especially if you've said no multiple times.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Yeah. That's faith. That's the spiritual path. That's jumping and trusting that your wings will grow on the way down. And you can't know through any logical means of understanding. And for some people, uh it's just about doing it. And for others, doing the work can get them to a place where they can do it. Some people just can't because they are so unaware of the patterning and the programming that is baked into their systems that every time they tiptoe up to the edge, they they turn around. They cannot bear it. So if that's you working with a mentor, a coach to understand what it is inside of you that makes that approach to the edge, to the jump unbearable, once you understand that, the likelihood of you being actually able to take the leap is much greater. And people often dramatize this, they absolutize it of, like you said, oops, I breezed by that one. That doesn't necessarily mean that you show up to your partner and be like, this was a mistake, I gotta go. It's usually, this might lead to that, but it's usually voicing the emotion, the truth, the uncomfortable thing that you've been holding inside and having a conversation about it. You don't know where that conversation will lead. You just don't. Maybe that's the invitation to your partner for them to start showing up in new truth, for them to actually independently acknowledge the things that they've been letting slip. And maybe that's actually what you need to hear most. Maybe you don't need to leave, right? But this decision to just, oh, there's a lot coming up for me. Like I need to leave. Not yet. There needs to be a conversation of clarity to be had.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

We laugh sometimes about how we're kind of breakup heavy because there are a lot of people in relationships that with our subject matter of what we talk about. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, not about us. But I like that you offered this. It's like sometimes the initiation is the conversation and it's not necessarily just leaving right away. And there is an important note of like, if your system is already clear, there's no conversation that will change that. And this is a place where people get stuck where their system knows, and then they just wonder well, if only this person says this, or if only they change that, or if only we can have this one last conversation, then everything will be fine. And closure is a myth. Like the place that I've seen a lot of people get trapped in in this initiation process is well, I'll just have that one last conversation. But that one last conversation is that temptress at the end of the level, bringing them back to, okay, well, this time they did say the thing, but saying the thing is not the same as an identity shift that actually allows the relationship to thrive. And a really good checkpoint for is this a relationship initiation in which I grow here or I grow by leaving, is if I think about my perfect relationship where everything's reciprocal, the intimacy is on point, the integrity and the trust is on point. Is the one I'm in going to shift to that if I change or if the person across from me changes? And if it's reliant on the person across from you changing, that is a completely different conversation because no matter what words come out of that person's mouth, you cannot guarantee an identity shift in someone else. And if you plan to wait for them to identity shift, you will be waiting forever. Because likely the initiation that you take of leaving the relationship you know to leave is actually that person's initiation as well. And by staying to create comfort, you're not only stealing your own growth, but you are stealing the opportunity of growth for that other person. And this is really important because we think that creating comfort in the moment is love, but it is not. Creating truth in the moment is love. And if the truth is to go, no matter how much it hurts in the moment to either person, then only truth is going to create the optimal outcome for both people involved.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Yeah. Sometimes leaving is the initiation for both parties. Sometimes leaving is the loving thing to do. And another way to evaluate this is your romantic relationship cannot be a path to spiritual development unless it's a path that both of you are on. If one of you is like, this is for my spiritual growth, and the other one is like, this is for my comfort, it's going to be really uncomfortable for both of you for a time. And the other way to evaluate it is, you know, when you enter a romantic relationship with someone, um, it's because you have things to teach each other. There is a sacred contract there, as Carolyn Miss would say. And most contracts have a termination period. And so the question is, is this relationship still teaching me new lessons? Are there more things for me to learn here? Or is it teaching me the same lessons over and over and over again? And I refuse to test out of this class.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Yeah, that is another great checkpoint because if the relationship is teaching you the same lessons over and over and over, it's because you're failing the exam. Like if the relationship is teaching you the same lesson over and over, it's because there is an initiation being presented to you at some point. There is a step to your evolution being presented to you and you're missing it. And if you're missing it, then you're just gonna keep looping that way. And there's no conversation that is repetitive that's going to end up differently. There is an actionable step of change that is required for the loop to stop. And this isn't true for everyone. Like to your point, sometimes there is a shift that can occur within the relationship. But for me, the loop meant leaving. I literally said when I left my last relationship, where my partner said, you know, I know that we can solve this. We always have. And he was right. We always got our way back to what felt like us in that comfortable level of the game that we were used to playing. And I told him, I feel like this is our thesis paper, and I can stay in this school forever or I can graduate. And the only way to graduate is to leave the school. And that was really fucking hard. And I didn't want to be living Groundhog's Day every day. And it became clear that the lesson was looping, and I hadn't been saying yes to an opportunity that I was being offered, even though that felt painful. It just because something feels painful doesn't mean it's not right.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Yeah. Yeah. You, you know, people say this thing you can't miss what's meant for you. You can definitely hold yourself back from what's meant for you. There are people that are being held back in earth school. And you know, you could have a graduate level girlfriend and you're Matthew McConaughey and dazed and confused day in high schooler still, you know.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

I would like to also just comment on the fact that if you say yes to these initiations to relationship as a spiritual path, eventually you will likely get to a level where it becomes a two-player game. And this is where we are at. It's like I got to a level and spirit was like, okay, you get to do this with this one. And that's awesome. And it didn't come from no work. It didn't come from like waiting until this relationship to decide that relationships were my evolutionary path. It's like I already knew that relationships were my evolutionary path. I wasn't necessarily doing it well, but I knew that that was true. And I was definitely devoted to this path for at least 15 years before I took the initiations necessary to get to this quote unquote level of the game where I now have you playing with me. And I think this is a really beautiful piece to include in this teaching because it's not like you will always have to do the hard thing and leave someone, or that you will always have to be in a relationship that is like grueling and teaching you spiritual lessons. And for the spiritual evolution that occurred when I was in relationships that felt comfortable and that I wanted to be the thing and I was using as a catalyst for my growth, I will say that the initiations and the like teachings that I was receiving were so much more painful. And once I went through the hard stuff and found the person that is actually on this path with me, the initiations that we go through are not the same by any means. Like they are sometimes challenging in the conversations that we have, but I never feel like the level of pain or torture that I have felt in past relationships that I was working with as a path to my evolution, but the other person wasn't.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

Yeah. It's definitely a skill set to be built. And you start building that skill set when you shift from relationships prioritizing comfort to relationships prioritizing growth. And that shift is palpable. It's obvious. Like I clearly know the last relationship I was in for comfort, and I clearly know the first relationship that I was in for spiritual growth. And it's an absolute paradigm shift. And it is an on-ramp to build the skill. Let's use like golf as an example. I'm I hate golf. And I hate golf because I'm bad at it. I hack the ball, it goes off the course, sand trap, it goes 20 yards. I'm not very good at it. But I imagine people that have put in the time and the effort to become good at golf and can land a ball where they intend for it to land. It's a much more fulfilling game for them because they've built the skill set. And relationship is the same way. When you start approaching a related, when you start stumbling into truth and having those uncomfortable conversations, you'll have these bambi legs, you'll be really shaky and unsure, and you'll hit the ball into the pond. And over time you'll play over and over and over again. And you start to build towards mastery in the game. And being good at a game is much more enjoyable than being bad at it. And so that's really the place that we've arrived at is that we are both fairly skilled at the game of relationship and being able to bump up against these edges of truth and discomfort and clearing the crumbs.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

And we're both playing it.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

That is such a key to this process. It's like I had I arrived to our relationship with a lot of these tools. But prior to I was definitely in relationships where some that the person was not playing the game with me at all. And then some where the person was playing the game, but not quite in the same way. And so even though I had the tools, the tools can only really be successful if both people are utilizing them. And that goes back to what you were saying before, where you have to be on the same page. And it is clear when someone is working with relationships as a path to evolution. It's not like, oh yeah, we sort of like grow in our relationship. And, you know, I'm on this path and they're interested in it. And sometimes we talk about these things. No. If you're on this path to spiritual evolution through relationships, both people know that that's what they're doing, but people are devoted to it. This is not something that is just in the back end of our house. It's like this is the priority of our house. Every day we show up to our practices for ourselves and for each other. And every conversation that we have that's challenging is through this lens. And that is essential because if you are playing golf with someone and they're like, I'm actually just here to like swing a ball, but I'm really just gonna like drink and dress.

SPEAKER_01 46:31

Swing a ball, yeah. That would be a hard person to play with.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

It would be exactly my point. And they're like occasionally playing, it's not really fun. You're basically playing the game by yourself. Yeah, you're probably slowing down people behind you, and your own game really falters.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Yeah. So on the note of compatibility, one, you have to be playing the same game. Two, you need to have a comparable skill set. Like, you know, I played high school basketball, I can get down on the court. But if I was to get on the court with nine NBA players, it would not be fun for me. I would get ripped on every dribble. My shot would be blocked because their skill set is so much higher than mine. Right. So you want to be, it doesn't have to be a perfectly level playing field, but maybe you have some tools that they they don't have, they have some tools that you don't have. You need to be able to, you know, volley to keep with the sports analogies.

SPEAKER_00 47:33

And this actually creates a really interesting dichotomy between relationships in partnership as a path to evolution versus family. Assume that your family is not going to have any of the skills that you have. If they pick some up along the way, amazing. If they see who you're becoming through this work and they desire to do this work themselves, amazing. But they're probably not going to be in the same exact playing field as you are. They're they're a different role or orientation in the game that you're playing than the partner. And so that's why they present two different mirrors, and that's why you evolve differently in partnership versus in your family relationships, and they test you differently and they help you evolve differently. But a partner is a partner. They are meant to be playing with you, not behind you, not ahead of you, not like looking at roses in the field while you're doing all of the work. And that is a really sacred experience and is why partnership is so so deeply honored when you witness one where it's really just the thing, because we all know how unique and sacred it is to find that. And everyone would want to experience it, but not everyone is willing to do what is required to have it. But they're meant to be playing with you. That's why it's called partnership. Family members are also playing with you, but they are more of like honestly, spiritual mentors. And they don't come in the form of a spiritual mentor like you think, but that's really what they are is your spiritual mentor. And everything that they do is an invitation for you to deepen your practice. Everything that they do is an invitation for you to show yourself and spirit and them how much love you can bring into the ecosystem no matter what, how much service you can bring into the ecosystem no matter what. And so understanding that the way that these relationships will help you evolve will be different depending on the orientation is also key. Because if you expect your parents to show up for you as well as your partner, they will fail you every time.

SPEAKER_01 49:54

Yeah, totally. So we've talked about family, we've talked about romantic relationships and how prioritizing comfort is not the path of spiritual development. We've talked about how sometimes leaving is the initiation. And we've talked about a couple ways that you can choose a fit partner for love and spiritual development. So now I want to talk about what it looks like to actually be in a long-term committed partnership and using it over time as a vehicle for spiritual development. And I want to start by saying in this kind of relationship, the primary motivation is not comfort. Like I said earlier, the more reliant you are on your partner for comfort, the worse spiritual student you are. So do I enjoy receiving comfort here? Absolutely. I do. But what I must have and do have is something else that I rely on for my comfort and my reassurance. And there's only one thing, and it is my relationship to spirit. And so both partners must have an individual relationship to spirit. How do you build that relationship to spirit through devotion, through giving your attention, your energy, your service to great spirit? So I just wanted to point that out that in a relationship like this, there's still comfort, but you're not relying on your partner for it. You know where to go for it, and that's your relationship with spirit.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

Yeah, it's interesting. This is such an important anchor, and it's not coming up till now, but it's like if you're on the path of evolution and enlightenment, spirit is essential. It's like that's what the path of evolution and enlightenment is a return to spirit. And so if you are going to say yes to this path, then first and foremost, a connection to spirit is essential. And if you don't have one, then that's where you start. Because the initiations that you'll go through in relationship are way more challenging if you don't have an anchor into source, into unity, into oneness. And that comes first. One comes before two. And that morning practice that we have and this evening practice that we now have of just being in deep devotion and connection with spirit to come home to ourselves. We've talked about this, I think, before on the podcast, maybe in a talk that we did actually. But if I don't have time with just myself and spirit, it is impossible for me to know what my true north is. If I'm only ever engaging with the external world, then I won't be able to hear any whispers from my own soul, from spirit, from nature, because the voices of everyone else are far too loud. And so finding that comfort in the stillness, in the silence, and developing your own connection to spirit in whatever way feels aligned is the cornerstone of all of this work. Because, as we always say, spirit first, then self, then partnership. And something that relationships of comfort often do is put the relationship in this position of spirit. And what you're saying right now is spirit is the source of comfort. So it makes sense actually that relationships of comfort get put in this role of number one, and that's their downfall because you cannot be God for me. And if I try to make you, you will disappoint me every time because you're not my you're not the one. You are my second. And so that as a resource is first. And so that then when we are feeling some discomfort, it isn't how do we create comfort here? It's let's return to ourself, and the comfort will naturally flow because it is an ever-flowing source from spirit.

SPEAKER_01 54:33

Yeah. So that is absolutely fundamental. It must be there. And if you have that and only that, and you've also chosen a partner that's playing the same game with a comparable skill set, you have a fantastic base for a relationship to be a vehicle for spiritual development. So that's exactly where to start. And then the challenging and the fun stuff begins within the actual relationship dynamics, which are staying open when you want to close, which are bearing your heart, especially when there's a part of you that says, This is gonna fuck it all up, or she's gonna leave, or she's not gonna love me anymore. Showing that authentic and fragile piece of yourself. And having that received and loved to the contrary of your former beliefs, is one of the most beautiful experiences that you can have in relationship. So there may not be always comfort, but there is the propensity for much greater beauty in a relationship like this one. It's about meeting those demons, those dark parts of you that threaten to tear it all down, and you get reactive and defensive, and knowing that those parts of you so closely that they cease to have as big of a hold on you. And here's the scarier part: introducing those parts of you to your partner so they know you in your full humanity, not just in your godliness. That's part of spiritual relationship. There's a fantasy that you know you'll see me and my godliness, and I'll see you in your highest and your best and your brightest at all times. And spiritual relationship really tugs the curtain back on all of those things. It's when the darkness comes up, when the reactivity, when the withdrawal, when all those demons bubble up to the surface, can you stay? Can you still understand that with all of those demons present, your feet are still firmly planted on the spiritual path?

SPEAKER_00 57:00

I'm thinking as you're talking, you know, if circling back to this idea of if your soul is meant for spiritual evolution via relationship, then your relationships are initiating you no matter what. What we're talking about is how to make it most useful, having a connection to spirit, having a partner who is on the same path as you, and utilizing these skills. If you do none of this, your relationship will still be initiating you. It will just be highly painful and uncomfortable. And so these steps that you're presenting, Isaac, is how to walk the path as you've said yes and really be devoted to it instead of just my soul's doing this anyway, but I'm gonna continue to say no.

SPEAKER_01 57:50

And you will delay your evolution as well. You know, the imagery that's coming through is you can stumble clumsily across hot coals without any direction or promise that you're getting closer to the edge of the hot coals, or you can courageously charge through the fire.

SPEAKER_00 58:11

What's your favorite thing about being in a relationship of evolution?

SPEAKER_01 58:16

The constant growth and the knowing that I have within myself that there's no expiration date of when this goes stale because it's so rich in learning and deepening and truth. You know, I think a lot of guys especially struggle with committing to a woman for life because they have this thing in their head, oh, just her for life. Like, isn't it going to get old? When you're on this path with your person, it does not get old. There are new things to face together consistently enough that it stays fresh and it stays exciting, and you keep that polarity that comes from not collapsing into each other in comfort.

SPEAKER_00 59:13

Yeah. As you're talking, I'm also thinking that, you know, this mix of everything that we have here is something I really enjoy where it's like, I get the growth that I was always seeking. I get the challenge that I was that my soul was naturally creating to everyone else's dismay. And I also get to feel like incredibly secure and safe and know that anything that either of us desires or that either of our souls is pointing towards can and will be created and held here. And that is so sacred. It's like to have gone through life feeling like no one could ever keep up with me, and no one was ever playing. I'm getting emotional. No one was ever playing the same game as me. And I was like destined to always be playing the game, like kind of alone, like dragging someone in a cart behind me. And then to finally have gone through like the initiation where Spirit really was like, okay, like he did it. Like, here's your gift. This person's gonna play with you forever, is so sacred to me. And it's like I've never trusted anything more in my life than that, like, we get to play this game together forever, and that we're actually playing the same one. Um, so that's my favorite thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:45

I love you. I love you. I like playing with you. I was gonna ask you the same question, but that was the answer. Yeah, let's do homework.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:00

I think that do you want that?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

Do you want that? And it's not altogether your choice, but just from this conversation from what we just shared, is that something that you want? That's the first question.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:22

I think that's a great thing to free write and almost just leave it at that. Do you want that and what are you willing to sacrifice to have it?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:31

What are you willing to give? It's not what what do you want? It's what are you willing to give? Because that is devotion and that is service. What you want used to be comfort. What are you willing to give? Devotion, service, commitment, consistency. I won't give away any more answers.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:58

All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:59

All right. We love you. Uh, make sure you leave a rating or a review. Share this episode with a friend, and we'll see you on the next one.