#24: How To Actually Repair In Relationship (It's Never The Apology That Does It)

Disconnection isn't what ends relationships. It's the inability to repair. On this episode, Jessica and Isaac give a masterclass on what decisively concludes the rupture and repair cycle so that you never have to deal with old sh*t again. They bust the myths that an apology should be made first and that repair is complete when the conversation is finished. As the conversation unfolds, they unearth the hidden influence that shame has in handicapping attempts at repair, and how to transcend it to return to loving connection.

Whether you struggle with repair or are a pro, this episode is sure to hone you skills and boost your current or future partnership to new levels of intimacy.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

The person who contributed to the rupture most will feel healthy shape.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

In a rupture, assume that you have made a mistake.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Apology is a really important part of the repair process, but it's one of the final pieces.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

No matter how silly your ego wants to say this thing is, it's not silly if it's important to your partner. It must become important to you.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

People think that disconnection and rupture is what ends relationships.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

But actually what ends relationships is I can't even imagine the number of women that would be mind-blowing at that. Welcome to the Wall Worship Man Podcast. Where men come to build unshakable presence, become the rock in their relationships, and build a legacy that lasts beyond their years. Here, we explore the path to mature masculinity through humble power, daily devotion, and unwavering integrity.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Thanks, baby. And before we get started today, make sure that you've left a review and that you've shared this podcast with a friend. What are we talking about today, baby?

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Today we are talking about the rupture and repair cycle.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Yes. And how saying sorry, apologizing is not enough to complete repair. That's right. So one of your clients sent us over a wonderful video of a woman who I'm gonna paraphrase. Her name is Beya Vos, and she was speaking at South by Southwest, and she shared that people think that disconnection and rupture is what ends relationships. But actually, what ends relationships is the inability to complete the rupture and the repair cycle. So rupture and repair are both characteristics of healthy relationships. A characteristic of a healthy relationship is not there's never any dissonance. So it's a cycle that repeats over and over again throughout the life of a relationship, and you get better at it over time, speaking from experience. But it starts with the rupture. It starts with a moment of disconnection, a moment where you miss each other or dismiss each other, and you can feel the disconnection that results from that rupture. And then once you feel that disconnection, the next step on the path of the cycle is to repair. And that's really what we're gonna lean into today. Will you share what true repair looks like?

SPEAKER_00 2:39

So true repair is when all of the dissonance created from a rupture has been moved through, which means we've talked about it, we've felt our way through it, and we've made commitments to one another on how to prevent it from happening again. And this is different from what people think repair is. Like you mentioned in the beginning, there is a lot that we learned growing up about saying sorry. Like make sure you apologize for your wrongdoings. And if you apologize, then everything is okay. But the trouble with thinking that repair equates to apology is that people apologize just to get through the rupture. People apologize when they don't really know what they're apologizing for, and stuff gets swept under the rug in a way that the repair can't possibly really complete because not everything has been spoken through and felt through. And in order for true repair to happen, you have to truly speak through every detail and you have to feel through every detail because only then can you really understand why the rupture happened and how to create something different. And you'll know that true repair has happened because not only does everyone in the room feel better. That's step one for sure. But an apology can make everyone feel better enough. So it's not really the only thing. You'll know true repairs happen because the same rupture actually doesn't repeat itself.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Yeah. As you were speaking, I was thinking how important it is to name the rupture and repair cycle as uncomfortable, the whole thing. The rupture, the process of getting to repair is uncomfortable. And because it's so uncomfortable, there's a temptation to just do enough, to spring that early apology, to sweep the hardest things under the rug and just move on. But we know that when either of those options or both of those options are taken, that we're really just delaying the true repair. Like you said, true repair is when the same rupture does not repeat. Unless that process is brought to completion, it will. And so the ability to stay in the discomfort, to look at the hardest things, to sweep those final crumbs, the ones that you don't want to look at the most, is necessary to this process.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Yeah. And something that comes up for me whenever I talk about rupture repair is how many relationships, really all of them, that I had before you, where I didn't understand what true repair was. And our relationship, teaching me true repair, has helped me create that type of repair in other relationships like sisterhood and family and things like that. But what I didn't realize in past partnerships is the cycles repeating was because true repair wasn't happening. And to understand that really can be a life-changing piece of wisdom. Because if you understand that you're having the same conversation you had two weeks ago, you had two months ago, two years ago, because the repair didn't ever actually happen, then you can stop telling the narrative of like, why do you keep bringing things up from the past? We already talked about this. Things from the past are being brought up because they haven't been repaired. And that is a cycle that a lot of partnerships specifically get themselves into. And I know that I was, you know, in multiple partnerships before you. Every couple of months, we would be down the same road talking about the same rupture in some type of way. Maybe it looked a little bit different, but the core miscommunication or the core misunderstanding was similar. And I'd be interested to hear for you where your, you know, lack of full repair in other relationships has occurred. But for me, it seems the primary thing was that inability to sit in discomfort and not just mine. I've always felt like I'm pretty good at sitting in my discomfort, but the inability for me to sit in the discomfort I was having because of the other person's discomfort. And so what would happen is we would hit a rupture, and the other person would feel so much suffocating shame about their hurt that they caused to me, that it seemed like there was no way out. So eventually I just pulled the plug and I said, you know what? It's okay. And in that moment, it felt like I was creating a path forward. It felt like I was creating forgiveness. But the issue was I was solving their shame and short circuiting them out of it instead of them solving their shame. And because their shame was going unprocessed quickly in time, we would be in the same rupture. Because if I was unable to sit with them in their shame, then they were never gonna actually sit with me in the harm that they caused. And so my hurt was never being caught, um, being held because the quote unquote resolution or repair that was occurring was simply just like getting the shame out of the room so we could both breathe.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

Yeah. Apology is a really important part of the repair process, but it's one of the final pieces. And that's really where people make the mistake is they pull the escape hatch and use an apology to get out of their discomfort. And you asked about, you know, my path early on, my path of learning how to be in a relationship, I would just avoid rupture and repair completely. You know, it's all good, it's fine, don't worry about it. Um, and then as I started to learn the importance of this process and actually that ruptures do exist in healthy relationships, I started to lean in a little bit more. But I think I had a similar experience to what uh you experienced with the ex-partner that you just mentioned, is that my inability to truly complete the repair cycle was my inability to sit with my own uncomfortable emotions. Right. For true repair to happen, there must be an individual processing of the internal emotions. And within rupture, the person who contributed to the rupture most will feel healthy shame. They might feel toxic shame as well. Toxic shame means I'm bad. Healthy shame is I did something bad or I did something out of alignment with my values. And shame can be a really big emotion, and it can be one that we want to get out of quickly, especially if we don't have a relationship to it, especially if we don't understand our healthy shame as an indicator to change our behavior and we make it mean I'm bad or I'm gonna lose you, or I did something so wrong that I can't recover from it. So even if I got, you know, 50% to the repair and I was like, okay, we made it far along enough. Now I can pull the escape hatch and get myself out of this. The apology that you offer when there's still shame present within your system is not an apology of service. It's really a selfish apology of excusing yourself from your own shame. And so, really, all of the shame must be felt in order for you to offer an apology that isn't I'm sorry, I feel so bad about this, but is actually I'm sorry that I contributed to this harm within you. And because I felt my shame, because I've cleared out the emotion that is closest to me, I can actually open myself up to feel into what you're feeling.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Yeah. And this is something because because you teach a lot about relational leadership, and because I talk a lot about the mirrors in relationship, that we harp on a little bit more than I think other people. But in a rupture, assume that you have made a mistake. And this goes for everyone. Even if you're, you know, like me, the more sensitive one who's usually feeling more of the stuff. It's like if I can assume that at somewhere, some point in my day, I've stepped out of integrity with my own personal values to contribute to this dissonance, then I get to also sit with my own shame, you know, and how did I potentially put myself in a situation that caused me harm? And that is a key in the style of relationships that we are teaching. Of course, there in most ruptures, there is usually someone who has, you know, committed the more egregious action.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Yeah, who's pushed the tension to critical mass.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Yeah. But if we are studying this path of evolution by way of relationship, then we must always go inward first. And I love this teaching of like the shame must be processed before the apology, because it really is true. Like if I'm feeling shame, then I can't guarantee that my apology is for you. And maybe some of my apology is for you, but if I have unprocessed shame, I cannot guarantee that the apology is of service instead of selfish in some way to get rid of the sensation. Because if I'm feeling shame and I apologize and you accept it, I don't have to feel the shame anymore. It's quote unquote complete and we can just move on with our day. Except the problem is it's not actually complete because the shame wasn't fully felt and the apology wasn't an apology of service. And so this idea of just like attempting to repair to get rid of discomfort rather than attempting to repair to actually help the relationship evolve and deepen are two completely different approaches to repair. If I continue to attempt repair just to get rid of discomfort, the relationship never has a chance to evolve. And it gets stuck in this loop where we're always having the same conversation over and over. And also the mess builds over time. Like the more you have the same conversation, the more resentment that builds, the more like misunderstanding that builds. You can't really understand because you're in it, you can't really understand why a love that was so beautiful has found itself in this rupture cycle that's repeating over and over and over. And it feels really honestly horrendous when you get to that place when repair has had the opportunity six times and it hasn't repaired. And now unworthiness stories start to show up. Like, why can't you love me enough to do this thing? Or why am I so broken that I can't seem to fix this relationship? When the reality is there's nothing inherently wrong with either of you, other than you don't have the skill set to repair.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

And as we're talking through this, it's really important to know and double tap that the shame must be cleared before a true apology can be offered. And you mentioned early on, you know, you know that repair is complete when both parties feel a lot better. But repair actually isn't complete in that moment. You've completed the immediate process that allows the two of you to return back into connection. But what happens in a rupture is some degree of loss of trust or loss of security. And it could be a very small degree and it could be a major thing. But in order to reclaim the trust or the security that's been lost, there needs to be a committed and intentional change in behavior. And that happens after the repair conversation. So I'm gonna give all the listeners some free game. After you've cleared your shame, here's how to offer a true apology. Prior to this, feel into the way that you've made your partner feel. Don't think about it, feel into it, attune to her. And so, step one of a true apology is I'm sorry for this. Step two is acknowledging the impact, usually an emotional impact. I know that that made you feel neglected. And the third step, which is the focus here, is what she can count on from you moving forward. And so that is future-based. And for the repair to complete, for you to regain the trust or the security that's been lost, you must stick to that commitment that you offer on the tail end of your apology over and over and over again. And then the repair becomes true.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Yeah, there's a couple things that I want to go into. So I think the first is just this script, which I feel like is very helpful. And my experience with a script is sometimes when people have the script, it lands in my body as this is just a script you learned. And that's why the feeling into the feelings is so important. Like you mentioned, it's like don't think about the impact that it had, feel the impact that it had. So knowing that you did something that made your beloved feel neglected is one thing. Feeling in your own body what it feels like to feel neglected, so that you can feel what she felt like in that moment of impact is essential. Because then when you share this apology and when you share the understanding of the impact you caused, she will be able to feel that you can feel what it felt like for her. It's not about knowing the impact. It's about really feeling like, what does it feel like for you to feel abandoned? What does it feel like when someone says they're gonna show up for you and they don't? And maybe you haven't had the space to feel into these things before. You know, if you haven't done a lot of therapy or coaching or internal work, like the partnership might be the first place that you're getting to experience this. And we say this over and over again, but this is why personal practice is so important. It's like go sit by yourself and feel your way to the depths of the shame. Feel how much like death it feels like to have a core belief that you are bad and broken because you did this thing. And then feel to the bottom of what it feels like to be neglected or alone or whatever it is you made her feel. Because only if you actually feel the impact is that apology going to land. And so this point of not thinking about the harm that it caused, but actually feeling what she felt like in that moment is key so that the script actually lands.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Yeah. Making a practice of feeling into your woman's emotions, especially the painful ones, is going to help you so much in connecting, in supporting, reassuring, and in repairing in the future. We're using neglect as an example, but any other hurt feeling could be inserted for what I'm about to say. Um, so in this rupture, what you did contributed to her feelings of neglect. Chances are that she will feel neglected again at some point during the lifetime of your relationship. If you've repaired completely, it will be for a different reason. But if you've really felt into that neglect that's been alive in her, when it comes up again, you are much less likely to miss it or dismiss it. You can attune to her much more rapidly, immediately, than you were able to before.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Yeah. And this is something that you say often is like claim responsibility urgently and enthusiastically. And if you don't know what it feels like in the room when someone has felt hurt, then it's hard to do that urgently. And one of the things that supports the repair cycle is urgency. Totally. You know, if you miss it completely and your partner has a hard time sharing their emotions because of whatever in their past, and now three weeks later you're talking about it, you're playing this he said, she said game. And it's like no one actually remembers what happened. They just remember how it felt and what the intention was. It's much harder to repair from that place of, I think I said this and I think you said that, especially in the midst of hurt where people are speaking as if they know for sure what happened.

SPEAKER_04 20:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

And so if you can feel what it feels like for yourself to feel these emotions and for her to feel those emotions in the room, to your point, it's like you're gonna be more well attuned and you're gonna understand much closer to the moment when something happens. You're gonna feel, you know, five minutes later when she stops talking or when she stops engaging or when the color has drained from her face. And then you get to be the person to go up to her and say, hey, baby, like what's going on? Did something happen?

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Or I noticed the colors out of your face. Is it because I did this?

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Mm-hmm. Even better. Yeah. Totally. And having been through a number of connections that I didn't feel well attuned to, I can tell you that there's nothing in the world that creates more safety and connection and intimacy than knowing that you are well attuned to me. Is it perfect? No, we're always learning, but it's better and better all the time. And it's the best attunement I've ever had to know that, like my millisecond of feeling like, ooh, in my body, like, oh, that didn't feel good. Like you almost immediately are aware. And it's because of your personal practice and because of your devotion to feeling your own stuff and my stuff. And it's like this work that we share isn't for nothing. You know, it's for the health of the relationship and the well-being of the feminine. But also ultimately, it's for the well-being of the masculine too. It's like the masculine has this beautiful external mirror in the feminine, but she's not outside of you. She's in you. And the struggle that most men have is trying to rationalize their life when really they need to just feel their way through their life a bit more. And the more you can understand her emotional state, the more easily you'll be able to understand your own in those moments where, like, you just can't figure it out because it's not about figuring it out.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

Yeah. Yeah. The difficulty men have with relating, supporting, reassuring their feminine counterpart, is the same difficulty they have to relating to their emotional world. You mentioned that my sensitivity to you is a result of my sensitivity to my own emotional world. And when you have that, you can act urgently around rupture. The longer you wait, or the longer you take to hear the signal that there's a rupture, the harder it's gonna be, the more back and forth there's gonna be. You know, when tensions are high in a moment of rupture, it is astounding how our memories construct experiences that are supportive to us. Like, like we've had conversations, you know, reviewing, you know, we're trying to run the game film back on a moment of disconnection. And it's like you remember something completely different than me, right? And that's not even, you know, waiting three weeks to do it. So attacking that urgently uh only can happen when you have developed that sensitivity to yourself and then to her.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Yeah. And another important piece of this, like addressing things urgently is when someone shares that there's been a rupture, there has been.

SPEAKER_04 24:29

Period.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

You know, like the number of times someone will say, Oh, it's not that big of a deal, or oh, I didn't mean that, it's fine, or whatever. It's like, no, if someone is expressing upset, then something must be addressed, even if it feels like it's interrupting your day, even if your ego wants to say that it's stupid. It's like if you are choosing to be in a relationship, you are choosing to say that everything that's important to you is important to me. That's what a relationship is. If you don't want to nurture someone else's emotional state, it's okay. Don't be in a relationship. But the agreement when you enter into a relationship is that your emotional state is the most important thing in my field besides my emotional state.

SPEAKER_04 25:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

And in a moment where your emotional state is struggling and mine feels okay, yours becomes the most important emotional state in the room. And so this is a really important piece for the integrity of the relationship and for repair to actually occur, is no matter how silly your ego wants to say this thing is, it's not silly if it's important to your partner. It must become important to you.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Yeah. Her emotional experience, what she's telling you is happening in her internal world, is true. You may not be experiencing it that way. You probably aren't. But if she's expressing it to you in her world, it is true. And something really important that you pointed towards was during a rupture, uh, one person is going to be more emotionally impacted than the other. And it's really important that you identify who that is and you prioritize them first. It cannot be about both of you simultaneously. You cannot both be trying to hurt be heard at the same time. One person must be listening and supporting and attuning, and the other person gets to share. And eventually those roles can flip. But every time that we've been in a rupture and you've been more emotionally impacted, and I've made it about me because of my defensiveness, that's usually the one that comes up for me. It does not go well.

SPEAKER_03 26:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

So you we have to also learn our protective mechanisms, you know, whether it's defending or blaming or projecting or smeagling, which is a word that's pulls from Lord of the Rings, of like, oh, I'm I'm so bad. Like, I'm just the worst partner ever, you know? Yeah. Um, so knowing what your protective mechanisms are are really important. So that when they start to rear their head, you can say, no, no, no, it's not about me right now, it can be about me later. It's about her because she's more emotionally impacted.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Yeah. And even naming it is helpful. It's like if we are having this conversation and you can just say, I'm feeling defensive right now, and like I want to listen to you, immediately just stating that the protector is present almost automatically dissipates it a bit. And so understanding those themes of how they come up is important. And part of that is getting the same language. It's like one of the reasons that I think it's so helpful for people to have coaches that work in similar realms or coaches that are partners is because we communicate the same language. And if one person is speaking in Spanish and one person is speaking in English, even if translated, it would get them somewhere. The different languages are impossible to like create repair in that moment. And so getting yourselves on the same page as far as like nervous system work or what a protector is or how to actually have healthy repair, you know, it's like if anyone's listening to this and they're in partnership, it should be immediately sent to their partner so that you can have the same language. Because then in the moment where my protector is coming up, I can say it and you're like, okay, like thank you for letting me know. What do we need to just ease a little bit? And something else that was coming up as you were sharing of like the order of operations of who gets to be addressed first, is this understanding that in any rupture, both people will experience hurt. There is, especially from the feminine side, I've heard because the term like gaslighting and all of these things has become pop culture. There is anytime any of these terms comes in, they get a bit overused. And, you know, I would teach that 99% of the time no one is gaslighting on purpose. It's really just like a protector. But also sometimes people aren't gaslighting, sometimes they're actually just trying to share their experience. And the person across from them is frustrated because their hurt occurred first. And understanding that it's a relationship, and anytime there is a rupture, both people will experience hurt is essential. Because if you tell the narrative that you're the person who hurt me, so my story is the only one that gets to be heard. And anytime you bring in your story, you're deferring from what actually happened. Repair also can't happen there. And so if I'm just talking to myself and my own relationship, in my own head with myself, yeah, there's like just my experience with myself. But again, when you're in a relationship, when you choose to be in a relationship, you're choosing for both stories to be held. And there is an order of operations and it is an art to discern like, okay, when has this been processed enough so that the other person's experience can come through? But there must be space for the other person's experience to come through.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Yeah. And usually, you know, in our experience, that second process, to be transparent, usually you are the one that's most emotionally impacted. And I think that's true of any partnership. Usually that the more feminine partner is the one that's more emotionally impacted most of the time. Yeah. Once we resolve that, and if it needs to be about the emotional impact for me, that process is usually pretty quick. It's pretty short because we've already come back into connection. We've already gone through kind of one cycle of the rupture and repair. We have some confidence on it. We're on the same side of the table. It's not you versus me, it's us versus the issue. Um, so usually, you know, it's it's not another kind of longer, more arduous process.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Totally. And that's such a good point because if you do it too early, yeah, it will be an arduous process because there isn't completion anywhere. And instead of like continuing to walk the path, we're actually just adding fuel to the fire. Yeah. And so that is almost like a checkpoint to know okay, has this other side been repaired? When I add my story into it, is it easeful or or no?

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Yeah. And one thing I notice sometimes in men who are uh with women or with a feminine partner is you mentioned earlier, this tendency to want to dismiss her emotions. It's not that big of a deal. Oh, I didn't mean that. Oh, let's just like not even get started on that. And what's underneath that is this wish for her to be less sensitive. And what's underneath that is the man doesn't have a relationship with his own emotions. But that desire for her to be less sensitive, I wager is not actually what men want because what that means is I wish she was less feminine, I wish she was less feeling, I wish she was less soft, I wish she was more like a man. I wish she experienced her emotions more like how I do. And that if you are after greater intimacy, better sex, more polarity and passion, that desire for her to be less sensitive has got to go out the window. And the desire has to change to I want to be better at relating to my own emotions and hers.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Yeah, I love this. It's like you can't choose which aspects of the feminine you get to be involved in, especially if you are a man walking this path of desiring to be the best man you can be. It's like the better attuned you are to your own masculinity, the more of a feminine partner you're going to have. And like the way that you show up in our partnership is perfect for me. If I showed up for you the way you show up for me, there would be exactly to your point no polarity, no good sex. But also, it's just not the way that you want to be supported. It's like if a man desires the art and the creativity and like the flowers that the woman puts around the house and to be able to fall into her lap and feel like so held as if he just came home from battle. It's like that comes with her emotional sensitivity. And you don't just get to pick. And so being fully on board with yes, I want a partner connected to her femininity, it's the same thing I've been saying. It's like if you are choosing to be in a relationship with a feminine being, this is what it is.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

Yeah. I'm hearing this, this old trope of, you know, men being good with women. And I'd like to change what we make that mean. It's like the former definition, you know, if you're good with women was you can create initial attraction and have sex with basically any woman that you want and get lots of dates. Uh, but what actually being good with women is, is the ability to amplify her femininity by creating security and by developing a close relationship to your own internal world.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Yeah. And what I'm seeing also is like the better that the masculine can hold the feminine in their process, the less catastrophic it is. It's like the way that my feminine emotional states used to express in the presence of men who simply could not hold them was honestly a shit show. Like it was just like so unhinged. And part of this obviously has to do with my ability to hold my own sensitivity and to be able to feel it and express it in a way that is like designed for connection instead of just like designed to absolutely destruct everything around me. But also it's feeling safe in it. And it's like if I can know that I can present these things to you without it coming with a mirror of attack, but instead it coming with a desire to understand and a desire to deepen devotion, then the way that I will express it is much gentler and much softer. And so, even in the way that she expresses her hurt is a measurement of how well you are doing holding her and creating safety. And you said this to me. This is kind of like different, but adjacent in the very beginning of like, my sensitivity is an integrity meter for you. And that is such a powerful statement. It's like if you really want to be the best version of the masculine that you can be, integrity is a non-negotiable. It's really a non-negotiable for any human who wants to be the best version of themselves. Integrity is a non-negotiable. And sensitivity and emotional processes point us in the direction of like something is off here. Integrity is an absolute straight line. And when there is a miscommunication, when there is a rupture, someone has sidestepped away from that straight line. And understanding that the emotional process is an invitation to return to center instead of a distraction or a mess to be cleaned up or whatever is also a really powerful mindset shift in this partnership dynamic.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Yeah. And one of the feminine's functions is to challenge the masculine to remain in that center line of integrity. And the more that a man bends and sways and wobbles, the more wild that challenge will be because her deepest desire is to feel her man's pillars driving deep into the earth. And when she doesn't feel that, she will try to provoke him into doing that. And that's where we see the women testing men, you know, big, big wild emotions. And that's a response. That's a response to the environment that the man is creating, or an environment that she experienced with another man in her past. Right. And so in that case, a man's ability to understand that, hey, this didn't start here, and this actually isn't what's alive here, is what will allow some of that wild feminine to soften, is what will allow her to actually experience him holding a center line more effectively than any man that she ever has had before. But the more that you hold a firm masculine, the more that you are the rock in the relationship, the less that she will test you because she knows where you stand. If she doesn't know where you stand, she deeply desires to know. And she will do whatever it takes to evaluate if you actually do have your feet planted somewhere, or if you don't. And that's not good for you if you want to continue relationship with her.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Yeah, the visual of like the level of response is equivalent to the level that the man has sidestepped is important. And of course, there's history and relearning on her part. But honestly, if the man is stable and does have like a deep, strong pillar, then the quickness at which those old patterns resolve is quite fast. You know, there really isn't much of bringing the old into the new unless there really are things that the new relationship is doing that are similar to the old one. And some of that's her work. But because on this podcast, we direct a lot of our advice towards the men, it's like, assume all of it's your work, you know, like, yes, for sure, caveat, everyone needs to be doing their own work. But there is a lot in ancient texts, you know, I was raised Christian. So, like in Christian text, it's like the man is the cornerstone of the house. And I didn't really used to understand that, you know, like as far as, you know, equality and feminism and all of these things, it's like, I can be the pillar of my own house. It's like, yeah, I can. But when the rock is stable, the whole house stands. And to view life from this perspective of the more stable you are as a man, the more everything else will feel stable and work in your favor is quite empowering. It's a lot of responsibility. And a lot of men will brush it to the side as if it's not truth. But you can only really say something is not truth if you've tried it. And I guarantee if you are a man who chooses to walk this path and you devote your life to being full of integrity and walking in absolutely straight line and get over the fact that it's a lot of responsibility and work and just claim it, your life will orchestrate around you and so will your woman.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

Yeah. The biggest shift a man can make in his life is moving from avoiding responsibility to desiring responsibility, saying, Oh, hand up, I want that. I want that too. There's the classic Uncle Ben quote from Spider-Man with great power comes great responsibility. But I like to flip that. With great responsibility comes great power. So if you want to be a powerful man, if you want to have sovereignty, if you want to exert influence over your life, you must claim responsibility first. And you know, tying it back to the rupture and repair, it's like if you can get there first to the rupture, you are creating security for your woman. She's seeing you take responsibility, she is seeing you become a better man in process, and the more that she sees that, the more her devotion is going to grow for you.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Totally. And you know, you can ask any woman, but we really aren't desiring perfection. We're desiring progress.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

You're desiring responsibility and responsibility, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

And so it's like this shame that comes up when there's a rupture, it's really not that big of a deal. Like, I feel like men catastrophize this shame experience that they have when they've caused harm. But to the woman's perspective, it's like, great, you know you did something wrong, fix it. And we're complete. Like it really is that simple. And so we have this process of like feeling your way all the way through your shame, recognizing it as an invitation to return to your integrity, apologizing, feeling the feelings that you caused, and then the step of actionable change. And the urgency at which the repair conversation occurs, the ability for the man to come to the conversation first. Oh my gosh, the number of women who've never experienced that, like so many. If you can be a man who shows up to the repair conversation before she gets there, that is like I can't even imagine the number of women that would be mind blown at that.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

And that'll be a challenge at first, getting her there because she is more emotionally sensitive.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

Yeah, for sure. But to play the game kind of makes it like that's what puts you on the same team, you know? It's like, you want to solve this before I even understand what I'm feeling. Like, amazing. We are both trying to nourish this relationship in the same way instead of one person trying to do it and the other person avoiding it.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

Yeah. You mentioned men catastrophizing the rupture. And there are certainly egregious errors like cheating and abuse. And I'm not talking about those, but usually it's not that big of a deal, dude. And your shame will make it hard for you to take responsibility. So instead of launching yourself into this shame portal, do everything you You can reassure yourself that it's not that big of a deal, and I'm going to take responsibility. And if you can do that, you're acting as a man and not as a boy because that shame that comes up is that that inner boy that, oh, I did something wrong. I'm in trouble. Right. And so you have to meet that. But if you can get to that place of, yeah, I don't feel great about that. And I'm not going to let it launch me into this deep dark hole of shame. I'm going to take responsibility. Okay, now the repair cycle can begin. And she's going to feel so much better if you approach her with that energy than you approach her in your shame process.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

Totally. When you approach her in your shame process, it's like, oh, cool. Now I'm feeling my own neglect, for example. And I'm also having to hold your shame.

SPEAKER_01 44:53

And there's a boy in front of me.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Yeah. And ew. You know, like that's not the relationship I want to be in. It's like, I don't want to be your mom.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

And it's cool, and it's cool to make space for that inner boy, but just like you said, it's not really that cool to bring it to your woman, especially when she's the more emotionally impacted one.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. So then we have the actionable steps, which is the commitment. And this, I think, is honestly part of why when people talk about long-term relationships, it's like a choosing every day. You know, it's like, yeah, we can make the commitment to one another when we get into a relationship. We can make the commitment to one another when we get married. But the commitment is really these little commitments over time of like, I promise to show up for you better tomorrow than I did today. And then doing it. And the repair, I call it like the circle back, like the repair conversation is one thing. And then in my body, I actually need like a conversation again at the end of the day or a couple of days later to know that it's still front of mind for you that that happened and you are committed to doing these things. And then there is the actual actionable change that maybe isn't clocked every time you do it, but in the subconscious, it's building trust every time.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

Yeah, there is this follow-through and follow-up that's really important. And it's a part of our relationship check-in, you know, for all of our clients. Biweekly or every week, we have our men lead a relationship check-in with their partner. And part of it is to revisit any repairs that have happened and just to check in, right? One have I been keeping the commitment towards that. Has the repair continued to feel like it is solidifying over time? And make a note of it for men. It's like when you have that repair conversation, okay, there's a behavior or two that you're actually going to change. Like, write that down and make it an intentional effort to meet those moments every time that you can over the next few weeks until it is embodied, until it's just part of who you are and what you do and how you relate to your partner.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

Yeah. And I will say about this circle back conversation that in the beginning it might feel kind of like, why are we talking about this again?

SPEAKER_03 47:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

Because sometimes we'll have our relationship check-in and we'll check in, we'll both be like, yeah, we're good. But oftentimes I'm like, yeah, I just need to express one more time that that felt uncomfortable. And I just need to hear one more time that you get it. And that doesn't necessarily mean that that's the case for everyone. But for me and my body, it does feel really important because what happens when we're in the midst of any type of rupture, or even for people that I work with that have more intense traumas, it's like in the moment, there is this sense of survival. And so even if we are having this repair conversation initially perfectly and everyone's nervous systems are settled and we've all processed our own stuff, because the risk is highest of loss in that moment, not everything can really get sealed into memory in the same way. And so giving it a little space to breathe and then returning to the conversation just kind of ties a bow on things to make sure that, you know, I thought we talked about this completely, but actually I'm realizing there's this one little thing that's still sticky. Can you just remind me that it's okay?

SPEAKER_01 48:37

Yeah. And returning to it is actually really important for us because what it shows you is that this wasn't just important to me because we were in the thick of it. This is important to me unconditionally. And it's not an inconvenience for you to bring it up again. I'm actually grateful, you know? And and wiring in those new behaviors, that new commitment that you're that you're doing so that the rupture does not repeat in the same way, uh, it takes intentional effort. So getting on the same team is actually really nice, right? Because I might miss it the first time because maybe I've never done it before. And if you can catch it in the moment, or one of us can catch it a couple hours later, it's so much easier for me to actually do it the next time, right? Like we're doing this thing right now where if either of us speaks in any way that the other one doesn't appreciate, the receiver can say, Hey, baby, could you say that in a different way? And so we've been getting better at that. But you know, the other day, um, I mentioned, like, hey, earlier today, you could have used that, that tool, right? And so that's part of it. And then when it's actually happening, if the other partner can offer some positive reinforcement, that goes a long way to deepen that that new groove, right? To say, hey, I noticed earlier today when you asked me, hey, could you say that a little bit differently? And it was super helpful for me. And I just want to acknowledge you for doing that. That goes a really, really long way.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Yeah. Well, the oldest way of treating humans was probably positive reinforcement. Then we got lost a little bit in the in-between of this like punishment cycle, but they find that all humans respond best to positive reinforcement. Like children actually don't respond well to punishment. They respond well to positive reinforcement. And the same is true of adults. And this is a barrier that a lot of people get into of just like perseverating on the things that their partner isn't doing well. And that statement is for a relationship check-in where we're in a safe container of like, hey, I notice you're continuously doing this. And it's really hard for me. It is not for like in the moment daily interactions where all your partner is hearing is these negative things. Like positive reinforcement, even about the small stuff and especially about the stuff that you've both agreed to change, is 10 out of 10 gonna change it way faster because we love a good grade. Yeah. We love a good grade.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

Yeah. If you can make it a habit to notice the good things that your partner is doing and to say it out loud to them, just that one thing is gonna shift your relationship completely. I have a question for you. Um, sometimes online I see conversations like this and I see women commenting like, I shouldn't have to positively like reinforce him. Like it feels kind of like mothering. They're like, he should just, he should just know. I shouldn't have to acknowledge him positively. What do you have to say to that?

SPEAKER_00 52:02

I strongly disagree. I think this is, you know, I've said this like five times on a relationship on this podcast, but it's like part of being in a relationship is supporting your partner. And people do the same thing with I shouldn't have to tell him what I want. It's like that's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

Yeah, if he intuits what you want, that's a bonus.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

Totally. It's like if you are in a partnership, if you are signing up to be in a relationship, you are signing up to do this thing together, which means that when I notice something that I need, I share it so that I can feel supported in the relationship. When you notice something you need, you share it so that I want to support you as optimally as I can. I hope that I can predict everything. And also we're each having our own individual experiences. So I just won't be able to. And the same goes for this positive reinforcement. It's like if you want something from your partner, but you're not willing to emphasize the joy that you feel when they do it, then you shouldn't be in a relationship. That is like so immature to me. It's like there are agreements that you make by stepping into a relationship and it is work. And sometimes you will have to do things that feel uncomfortable, but it's all for the sake of the relationship being nourished. So if you don't want to share your needs and you don't want to encourage your partner to do things well and you don't want to sometimes hold their emotional state, then you can either be in a really crappy relationship or not be in one. But if you want one that is ideal and that people stop in their tracks because of how much love you have, then you must be willing to show love all of the time in whatever way the relationship requires. So give your partner positive reinforcement. It's like obviously it feels good when someone celebrates you. You get to celebrate them too.

SPEAKER_01 53:59

Well, maybe it doesn't. You know, I'm thinking for people who it's hard for them to offer positive reinforcement, it might be difficult for them to receive it as well.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

And that's a that's that's true. Um, I'm thinking about how hard it is for me to be like celebrated at the gym. I think it's so cheesy when someone like supports me weightlifting. But but that's like a heart block. It's like, why don't I get to be celebrated? Whether it's at the gym or for doing something that I've been working hard towards. The truth is that if your heart is fully open, then joy and celebration get to flow easily in both directions. And if you have a block to being supported or to supporting others, then there's some closure there that probably needs to be worked through in some trauma work because there's something that created a protective shield around your heart. And the truth is that you don't get to have the ideal relationship you're dreaming of while wearing a coat of armor.

SPEAKER_01 54:57

Yeah. I mean, there's really two ways to approach it. There's the top-down approach, which is you just intentionally start offering positive reinforcement or whatever the behavior that you have resistance to. And then there's the bottom-up approach too, of like going down into the trauma, the origin, the root, and working with those parts of yourself so that it's more natural for you to offer positive reinforcement or whatever it is. And I think both are effective.

SPEAKER_00 55:22

Yeah. I think ultimately everyone needs both.

SPEAKER_01 55:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 55:25

It's just whatever direction you want to start in. Uh, both are going to feel silly and uncomfortable in the first place. So it doesn't really matter.

SPEAKER_01 55:34

Homework.

SPEAKER_00 55:35

Homework.

SPEAKER_01 55:36

If you are in relationship, and as you've been listening to this conversation, you've noticed that you haven't navigated the rupture and repair cycle the way that you really want. I think the first step is just acknowledging that with your partner. You know, if this is someone that you want to grow with, build a life with, experience more love with, is hey, I just listened to this podcast. It means a lot to me if you listen to it too. And what I've noticed is that we could be navigating this rupture and repair cycle in a much more loving way. I think that's one. Just presencing and naming that.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

Yeah. And I think a part two to that might be if you know that you have the same conversation on repeat, then once both of you have listened to this, there needs to be a spaciousness in sitting down and talking about this thing that repeats. Because if it's repeating, it's not repaired. That is fact. There is no way around it. And so sitting with it individually and seeing like which part of my hurt still exists and where have I not claimed responsibility for these things will help. And honestly, it might, it's probably a mediated conversation if it's occurred multiple times, but getting on the same page about what is the repeat cycle, because any rupture can repair if you have the right tools and if you are willing to do the work.

SPEAKER_01 57:14

Yeah. Absolutely.

unknown 57:16

All right.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Maybe listen to this again. Definitely share with your partner. Leave us a rating, a review. We love you, and we'll see you on the next one.