#25: How To Know Whether To Stay Or Go In A Relationship

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In this episode, Jessica and Isaac share a process that will make it crystal clear for you to decide if your relationship is worth working on, or if it's time for you to move on. What they share ensures that you can leave a relationship with no open loops, resentment, or lingering attachments, OR you will know for certain that staying in your relationship is for the highest good. If staying is the move, then you will also learn on this episode exactly what needs to happen for you to right your relationship and experience more love, passion and connection.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You can either choose yourself or your partner in moments of disconnection. And if you're not choosing yourself, you're basically abandoning both.

SPEAKER_02 0:09

This process that we've talked about is really arduous. Like even talking about it has like warned me out. I'm so grateful that I never have to do it again.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

The truth is, like, you either have that really vulnerable conversation or you leave.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Once you have these vulnerable conversations, does it feel like you guys are on the same team? Or does it feel like one of you is expecting the other to do more of the work?

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Relationships don't end out of nowhere, period. It is completely a result of. Welcome to the Well Worship Man podcast, where men come to build unshakable presence, become the rock in their relationships, and build a legacy that lasts beyond their years. Here we explore the path to mature masculinity through humble power, daily devotion, and unwavering integrity.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Thanks, baby. And before we dive in today, if you've listened to the show before, just take a moment right now, go ahead and leave a rating or review for the podcast so we know that you're with us so that you can give us some feedback and so these conversations can reach more of the people who need it. Baby, what are we talking about today?

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Today we are talking about whether you should stay or go. How to know in your discernment process.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

Yeah, it's such a painful place to be wobbling between I want to stay and I want to work on this. And maybe it's not in the highest good and the best future for me to continue to stay. And maybe I do need to make the excruciating decision to leave.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Yeah, I was thinking when we were starting this podcast, just as I was getting my thoughts together, like first and foremost, just taking a moment to honor how challenging it is to be in that space. And not in this space of like, oh, we're having a rupture and like I'm gonna leave you and you know, that back and forth, but like really to be in this spaciousness of this discernment process of I love this person so much, and I just don't know anymore. And really just wanting to take a moment to honor anyone in that place to, you know, share with you guys that our hearts go out to you. I think we've we've both definitely been in that space before, and it's not easy, and there's a lot of emotions and there's a lot of thoughts. And if you're sharing with community, there's also lots of opinions, or maybe you're not and you're feeling really lonely, but just really wanting to take a moment to send some love to anyone who clicked on this episode because it's something that you're deeply in the midst of.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Yeah. And for me, when I've been in this place, you're right. There's this feeling of, you know, I love this person so much. And to me, it felt like to make the romantic relationship work, it was like I was moving mountains. It was like I was up against so much. We talk about this a lot, but there was so much that was swept underneath the rug. And for me, I had less emotional skills at that time. It was worse at communicating. But for me, the accumulation of all that debt, all those things that had been brushed under the rug, just felt like too much to remediate. It felt like it had reached that critical mass where uh no amount of work would have gotten us to the place that we would have both felt confident and clear moving forward with enthusiasm. So I'm curious what your experience has been when you've been in this place.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Well, I want to comment on that first because there's a couple of different ways that people approach that. Like one is how you're saying where you just really started to feel this critical mass of oh man, there's just not much we can do at this point. Like, there's just too much, and we're too far apart to really reach a place of understanding with one another. Then there's this other place where people hold on, which is probably more the place that I generally would have latched on to of like there must be something. There must be something that we can do. Like, if only we have this one conversation, or if only I'm a big problem solver. So, like the narrative in my head is like, I must be able to solve this problem. Like, I can solve everyone's problems, including my own. Like, I must be able to solve this one. And then there's this third one that I've heard from clients of like, well, I just don't hold resentment. You know, we talked about it and I was angry in the moment, but like it's past. But the truth is that it's not past because it's looping, you know, and there is this energy of things getting swept under the rug, and maybe you're not feeling the intensity of that conversation anymore. But somewhere in your body, there is a holding on to the fact that in that moment when they made you so angry, they also made you feel alone. They also made you feel unprioritized. They also made you feel like, you know, you're not in a partnership. And so as we have this conversation, you know, there's gonna be different ways that people are approaching these things. But for me, I definitely erred for a long time in most of my relationships of like, there must be something we can do. And in my experience, the danger with that is like that only lasts so long. And then suddenly you reach this critical mass, and there's like a reckoning of oh, actually, there's nothing we can do. And that feels very like harrowing and also very jarring to the person sitting across from you sometimes because it's like, oh, we've been working on this for so long. Like I thought we were mending things, but actually nothing was really being mended. And there's just like this sudden reckoning that, oh, wait, there's there's nothing we can do. And so yeah, I I feel like I was someone who maybe held on for too long in most of my relationships.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Yeah. Like in my case, there's like the relationship is total. It's like the cost to repair the relationship is greater than just getting a new one. Maybe you total a car. Um, and that decision, it was still it was still hard for me, but it became very clear. And, you know, it wasn't that the mountain of work couldn't have been repaired, it was that neither of us had the skills or was completely willing to do that work. So that's like an important criteria to look at is like, okay, do we actually have the skills, the tools, and the willingness to repair, to remediate everything that we've swept under the rug? And then in your case, you didn't use these words, but something that a lot of people find themselves in is this sunken cost fallacy of I've been with this person for so long for years, and we've been through all of this stuff together already. We might as well just continue because that's preferable to me starting over, right? And I think that's an important thing to check too is this fear of starting over. Are you staying because you're afraid of starting over? Because you're afraid of opening yourself up again, of being vulnerable, of exposing yourself emotionally, all of those things that need to happen relatively early on in a relationship for intimacy to be established. Are you doubtful of your ability to do that? And you are, you know, choosing a familiar hell over an unfamiliar and in unpromised heaven. So that's a really important thing to check on as well.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Yeah. And with this sunken cost fallacy, obviously I'm talking to more women just in like my community. I talk to a bunch of men in clientele, but I'm curious how that comes up in your sphere with men, because in my experience, the way that I hear it most often is women ages 27 to 35 who desire to be mothers. And there is, I have my own opinions on this, but collectively as a culture, there are timelines, you know, physiological, biological timelines of like there actually is some sort of pressure and scientific evidence that you need to be having babies by this age to have like optimal fertility and healthy babies and these things. And while my path has led me more to the route of like, there's actually a lot we can do to optimize our internal environment. And I trust spirit to like allow me to have babies when I'm meant to. The cultural programming around that is intense and the scientific evidence around it is intense. And so where I hear the sunken cost fallacy the most is women saying in relationships that they've been in for a while because they don't want to start over, but also there's this intense fear that they won't find a partner by the time they need to have a baby.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

Yeah, that biological clock that women have that men don't, does make it harder for them to leave around the ages that you're saying. And on the side of men, yeah, it is easier to leave. They can kind of pull the plug without considering that. For any relationship that's on the rocks that I've experienced, that I've worked with, the man is not showing up at the level of reliability that he needs to be for trust to be built. It's impossible for a man to measure if the sunken cost fallacy is a fallacy or not without showing up in a new level of reliability. We talk about this a lot in relational leadership, of taking initiative, of going first, of doing things without her asking, right? Of doing what you're gonna say every single time. Until a man shows up with that level of reliability, he can't receive the feedback that he needs to receive from her to understand if effort can be made on both sides to repair the relationship. When he doesn't step up, neither does she, because he is the leader in some regards in the relationship. And so it feels like nothing's working. If he does step up and starts being more reliable and she's still unwilling or not competent in the repair process, then that's the place that he can make a real decision from. But until he steps up, he can't really make a grounded decision with clear information.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Yeah. And you're talking about this a lot in like leadership and action taking. But I talk to my male and female clients about this and the act as if strategy. It's like act as if the relationship is the one that you desire. Act as if you are sure that your partner is going to respond to your bids for love with more love. And the problem that most people are hitting when they're at this point of like, do I stay or do I go? Is there have been lots of repetitions of like attempts for love and not being met, or lots of repetitions of the same rupture over and over again that isn't actually being repaired. And so you get into this like habitual behavior of however you're acting habitually with one another, but in some ways it's not meeting you in intimacy and vulnerability and emotional connection, whatever it might be. And so you too are playing into like the pattern of the relationship. But the way that we teach is all about, you know, the world responds in response to how I'm showing up. And so if I start showing up differently, there's no option other than for the relationship to adjust. Now, will the relationship adjust for the positive or for the worse? You can't tell. But if you start showing up differently, there will be something that adjusts for sure. And so with my clients that are going through this discernment process, I'll often share like, wake up and assume you're in the perfect relationship. Like, how do you connect with your ideal partner in the morning? How do you show up to breakfast or in conversation or in those in-between moments or when you come home from work? Because it's similar to what you're talking about, the relational leadership is a bit more like falling through on your word integrity. And this is a bit more like manifestation vibes, but they should produce like a similar adjustment in the relationship. And it really is like if you're not showing up to the relationship, how you would show up in your ideal partnership, then how can you possibly expect the other person to? Which I think is a really valuable thing because if you do start showing up that way and the partnership isn't the thing, it will naturally see itself out, like it will combust. Yeah. Or it will adjust and then you can, you know, give it a chance.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Yeah. What I'm hearing is really stepping into a level of authenticity that removes the possibility of anything that's not true continuing to exist. And you know, ideally the first conversation isn't I'm out, this is over. The first conversation is things have gotten so bad that I've been thinking about leaving. Here are the things that don't feel good to me, here are the things that need to change and lay everything out on the board, right? You you could have like a lot of things that need to change. And we talked about on a previous episode about reliability, like doing what you say you're going to do, even if that means leaving, right? So if all of these things aren't met, or I don't see the change that I need to see over the next two or three months, then this relationship is not for me anymore. And I think that's really important to give your relationship a reasonable chance. It's really hard for people when you know it feels like it just like snuck up on them, right? They have all these questions of like, well, if I had known, I would have tried. Right. And maybe, maybe not, but as a leader in the relationship, the call is not to just pull the escape hatch. The call is either to write the flight path and get things on trap, or to do your best to land the plane, even if it's on fire, even if it's a crash landing, to stick with it until it is unrecoverable, until it is unflyable.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Yeah, and this conversation that you're talking about is so important. It's like someone cannot possibly show up for you if they don't know that they need to show up for you that way. And we talk about this all the time. This comes up in relational things so often where it's like, well, I just don't want to have to say that this is what I want because then it feels like they're just doing it because I said, so what? Like people have got to get over that. And also, like if I'm not clear about my needs, the fear is that if I am clear about my needs, you will tell me I'm too much or you'll leave or whatever. But it's like the relationship is already potentially done, anyways. So the risk of being honest about everything that's on the table is only giving the other person the opportunity to show up or not. Like they can totally come to that conversation and say, wow, I really like appreciate everything you're saying. And that isn't the direction that I want to go in. And then it's done. Then you have clarity. Then you don't have to be spinning your wheels anymore. But what's most likely to happen because there's love there is for the person to say, Oh my gosh, thanks for letting me know. Like, let's work on this. But they don't have the opportunity to say that if you're not completely honest with it. And vulnerability is scary. Like, love is a risk. You do not have a guarantee that someone is going to show up for you when you show them your heart. And that is the case with relationships forever. Like forever, I can be telling you something that I'm nervous about. And forever you have the opportunity to let me know that it's okay and you still love me. But the love is not the guarantee, and that's part of being in the relationship. And only if you are really honest with the fears that you have or the challenges you're having in the relationship, does the relationship have even a chance of showing up?

SPEAKER_02 18:06

You bring up a really good point, is what stops a partner from delivering that hard feedback is their own fear of vulnerability, their own fear of being with the uncomfortable emotions, of asking for what they need, or of making their partner feel bad for saying, Hey, you've done this, you've done this wrong. It hasn't felt like love for me. And who actually picks up the tab for that lack of courage to have that conversation is their partner. You know, they're left confused, they're left wondering, potentially for years, right? So you haven't landed the plane, and that's not a loving thing to do, right? Love can continue even if the relationship ends. But just pulling up and saying, hey, it's over, I don't have anything to say to you, is not loving and causes real greater damage than needs to occur for a relationship to end. So the caring thing to do is to lean into that courage, to have that tough conversation of, hey, this is what hasn't been happening, this is what I would like to see change. Because that way, like you said, you give your partner an opportunity to step up and in, or you give them an opportunity to say, Oh, now that you bring it up, like actually this isn't worth it to me.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Yeah. And you mentioned this fear that people have of hurting their partner, which is something I hear all the time. Like, not only are we not great at holding our own discomfort, but we're really generally poor across the board at holding someone else's discomfort. We just want to fix it, solve it, whatever. But the truth is that our discomfort is the catalyst for change. And if you don't let your partner sit in the discomfort of the way that they haven't been showing up, then they never have the opportunity to sit with that discomfort enough to change their actions. And every time you decide not to say something because you want to mitigate the discomfort that you're going to put someone else in, you're stealing that opportunity from growth for them, but you're also choosing to care for them over yourself. It's like this imagery that comes through for me is you can either choose yourself or your partner in moments of disconnection. And if you're not choosing yourself, you're basically abandoning both. And so offering that opportunity for discomfort and being able to say, this is probably gonna hurt, but ultimately it's for the best of both of us, is so essential. And until you develop the courage to say the things that potentially might hurt the other person, you're gonna be stuck in this relationship limbo forever.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Yeah. Problem identification is so key, right? You hear it a lot in relationships, like it just feels off. Like, I don't know what's wrong. It just doesn't feel like us. You know, they say that Einstein spent 90% of his time identifying the problem and 10% solving it. And so these conversations that we're talking about are really about identifying the problem. And what you name as the problem on the top line, assume that that isn't the actual problem. It isn't actually that the dishes have been in the sink for two weeks. It's an emotional problem. So there's emotional content there. And to have a real shot at writing the relationship, that emotional content needs to be brought to the surface. People need to own their parts in it, take responsibility and accountability, and make a real plan for change. Right. And if none of that's happening, right, if attempt after attempt, you can't bring the emotional content to the surface, you can't figure it out, you can't guide your partner to offer. That emotional content to you, and one or both parties are acknowledging their peace and creating that, and that's been a theme. And obviously, without those two things, there can't be any plan for solution or improvement. If none of those things are there, and you've tried, that's a pretty good indicator that we're leaning to leave.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Yeah, it's like okay, we can't decide if leaving is the correct path if there hasn't been vulnerable conversation and effort and truth shared. But once there is vulnerable conversation and effort to change and truth shared, then depending on how the relationship reorchestrates, if it's for the better, that's great. But if it's not, then there is this discernment process of okay, maybe we are walking down the path of disconnection. And that's not easy to talk about either. And really understanding that, you know, we we go through a grieving process of the relationship itself, but it's also a life lost. It's like people future cast all the time. And that's part of what makes it so hard to let go of a relationship. It's like I'm not just letting go of this love that we share right now, I'm letting go of like the love that I thought we were gonna share and the children we were gonna have and the vacations we were gonna go on, and all the memories that I thought we were gonna have together. And that is also part of what keeps people stuck, is not wanting to let go of the life that they've dreamed into. But in order to really make this discernment process, you must stay in the present. Like you must really be honest with yourself of is this a relationship offering me what I want and need in this moment? Because otherwise, it's just a pipe dream. And those dreams and future casts that you have likely can't come to fruition, anyways, because the way that you're dreaming about them is, oh, we're so in love and we're having this great time doing all of these things together. But in the present moment, I'm not feeling connected to you in my heart. I'm not feeling connected to you in intimacy. I'm feeling lost and abandoned every time you don't show up for me, all of these things. And if that's not changing in real time as we are problem solving it, then it's not gonna change just because we dreamed into this future together.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

Yeah, ultimately, uncomfortably transparent and vulnerable conversations are what's gonna lead you to a clear decision to leave or go. It's not just like a snap decision you make within your own mind because your mind is really murky. Like the mind is a swampy place. And so sitting down with your partner and having these conversations, naturally the truth, correct decision is gonna rise to the surface. And it goes one of two ways. And the invitation is to release expectations, right? You could say that you could think I'm I'm gonna come to this conversation and feel that and say that I've felt neglected for the past three months. And where our mind goes with that of like, oh, this is definitely gonna be like a relationship-ending conversation. But it might not be. Your partner might respond in surprising ways. And so that's one of the two ways that goes when you start doing this work. And I'm gonna um paraphrase uh Dr. Robert Glover from Mr. Nice Guy. When you start doing this work, your relationship either changes in surprising and wonderful ways, or the relationship meets a long overdue expiration date. And your responsibility isn't actually to choose, it's not actually to make a decision, it's to acknowledge everything that's gone unacknowledged, to move with the emotional discomfort and to get everything out on the table once so you can identify the problem, surrender the future so you can see clearly in the now, and it will be shown.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Yeah, the surrendering of the future is so important. And when people come and work with us, you know, we're really clear that like it will be nice if the relationship flourishes. But to be honest, that's not the goal. The goal is that you flourish. And often it does create, you know, a better relationship in some way, but it might create a better relationship. Well, always it creates a better relationship in some way, definitely with yourself, sometimes with the person that you're currently with, sometimes with a new person that you could have never expected. And that shift in what the goal is is really challenging because people want to guarantee that the partnership that they're in is going to flourish. But if there is so much in the partnership that has gone unsaid and unprocessed, and it's something that we've been clinging to for so long because it was comfortable rather than right, then you know, we're not God. Like we can't make a relationship work just because you want it to, and you can't either. Like you can try your best to make a relationship that you want work. But the truth is that if it's not meant to work, then you're always gonna feel like something's missing. And there's nothing that any amount of work can do for that if it's not aligned to truth. And so releasing this desire of like what you want versus coming to the desire that actually what I want is truth. Actually, what I want is to feel most like myself. Actually, what I want is the experience of open-hearted connection and intimacy. Then the truth can start to reveal itself.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

Yeah. Whether it's here or whether it's somewhere else. Like these are the experiences that I desire. So releasing the outcome and opening to the possibility that those outcomes might exist somewhere else is really important and it's really freeing. And yeah, I love how you mentioned, you know, that you and I are not in the business of keeping relationships together that are no longer aligned. And I've seen it multiple times of relationships that feel like fights, that feel like uphill battles. And eventually those relationships end. And very quickly, people find themselves in new relationships that feel like you're just rolling down a nice slope together. Like it's easy. And it's like nothing that they had ever imagined was possible because they were in this relationship prior where the issue was always between them and their partner. It was never on the table in front of them together. Or if it was on the table in front of them together, one of them would kind of like slide it towards the other one. And so that's an important evaluation to make too. Like once you have these vulnerable conversations, does it feel like you guys are on the same team? Or does it feel like one of you is expecting the other to do more of the work, you know, kind of standing there with their arms crossed, waiting for you to have another hiccup? Right. Or are you actually both invested in mending the relationship?

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Hey there, lend me your attention for just one minute before we dive back into this incredible conversation. And I wouldn't be interrupting if it wasn't for something extremely special that Jessica and I have created for you. If you've been listening to the podcast, you have heard the themes of urgent transparency, of leaning into those courageous and vulnerable conversations that can bring your whole world into greater alignment. But it's easier said than done. There's fear that comes up, there's nervous system state that wants to do nothing else but to avoid or escape. So, what we've done to make this process more accessible for you is we've created a free guide called From Closed to Connected. It includes a short video and a script that you can follow so you can have the conversation that you've been avoiding, the one conversation that can change everything in your life and your relationships. That free resource, the guide, is linked below in the show notes. So make sure you grab that. Have that conversation within 24 hours and watch everything in your life reorient around greater truth. Let us know how it went, how it changed things, what was challenging. And for now, back to the show.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

I will say, in some senses, at least in the in the initial phase of starting to do the work, it doesn't matter. It's like people, this is often a barrier that people have when they start doing the work. It's like, well, I don't want to do all the work. Like, she needs to do stuff first. And it's like, actually, your life will reorient if the only thing that happens is that you do the work. Of course, the relationship is most likely to be most successful if both people are like completely invested. But also, this is an opportunity for like you to show up fully and have the hard conversations and go first and like do all of this personal inner work that contributed to or that finds the blocks that were contributing to why your relationship wasn't going well for you. And then, like we've been saying, the relationship will reorient. So, like either your partner will see the fruits that your work bears and they will get on board, or they won't, and you will realize that like actually you want a partner who's in it with you. So I offer that that not be a block for anyone. Like, don't just not do the work because your partner's not doing the work. Do it because you want an optimal relationship and do it because you want to feel more like yourself. And then life will reorient. But in that process, one of the things that ideally is happening as you do this work is you come to understand your own inner guidance better. And so this discernment process of should I stay or should I go, even though the relationship is orienting around you and the decision will kind of like unfold naturally, your own discernment process of should I stay or do I go or should I go will also get stronger. Like you will be able to feel more of those moments in life in general, but certainly in the relationship that feel like a yes. And you'll be able to feel more of those moments in life in general, but certainly in the relationship that feel like a no, because a lot of what gets people to this place of not knowing if they should stay or go is continuously masking those moments over and over that don't feel good. But it's like really being honest with yourself of like, ooh, that didn't feel good. Oh, that didn't feel good. Oh my gosh, again, I'm feeling left behind. Oh my gosh, again, I'm feeling misunderstood. And really being honest with yourself of like how often you feel that way in a relationship is so key because something that happens in this process of discernment. We talk about like initiations and the doors that open, but it's like relationships go through phases that are harder. And then there will be some sort of relief. Like there will be a phase where your relationship feels kind of good. You have a good night out, you have a good night with friends, you have intimacy after not having it for a long time. Like there will be a phase where it's like, wait, actually, maybe we are connecting and that will feel good, but the trouble people get into is thinking that that's gonna last forever when none of the actual issues have been solved. And it's not true. Like that is a moment of breath gifted to you by spirit, but the issues that were never solved will come to the surface again. And so being able to understand what those feel like in your body and knowing that like those aren't going away without repair, and actually that cycle will continue until repair and evolution happens or until you leave is like a really important part of getting to know your own internal discernment better.

SPEAKER_02 34:40

Yeah, you said two really important things there. One is that when the relationship does start feeling better, understand that the mending is a repetitive and intentional process. It's like you can taste that goodness and enjoy the connecting moments you just had, but know like that the work is not over. That's like positive reinforcement that what you do has been working and to continue it, right? The danger there is oh, everything's good. We're just gonna go back. The truth is that you can't actually go back to the former relationship. If this mending process works, you've actually got to kiss that one goodbye because it wasn't working and build a new one. And and it can be like a great practice to have like a ceremony once you get to a certain point to honor and acknowledge the past relationship and really move on. And the other thing that you mentioned that's really important that I agree with is when the mending process happens, initially there will be an effort imbalance. So you mentioned a few examples, one person feels left behind or misunderstood consistently throughout the relationship. The other person is gonna have to put in more effort. And it's really important that they do because when they do, they build up this kind of relational capital. And once they have that, they can start doing things like setting boundaries and asking for what they need. You kind of have to earn the right to do those things for a man who hasn't been showing up for his woman at all to say, Hey, I didn't really like the way that you spoke to me. Could you say that differently? She's gonna push back hard on that. So it's like, why would I speak to you differently? You haven't been showing up for me in any of the ways that I need, right? So this is kind of difficult to talk about because it's almost like there is an element of scoreboarding. And that's one of the reasons why this relationship has got to where it has been, is you've been keeping track of who's showing up and who's not. But the person who hasn't been like really needs to start showing up until the need for a scoreboard becomes unnecessary.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Yeah, it's like part of the pattern is that a scoreboard exists, but someone needs to throw it away.

SPEAKER_03 37:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

Like someone needs to just be like, you know what? It's good. I'm just gonna show up every day as if this is my ideal partnership, no matter what, and not care. And, you know, in like Dharma work, it's all about service. You know, there's even some money books that are like, it's all about giving. Like you think it's about getting money, but it's all about giving. It's like the scoreboard gets thrown away because you stop worrying about what you're getting and you start being like, how can I serve? How can I show up to this relationship better? How can I show up to this relationship better? Okay, how can I show up to it even better? And it's through that like endless amount of love that things start to shift. And this is challenging because people confuse the endless amount of giving love with like people pleasing and self-sacrifice, but they're really not the same. Like in self-sacrifice and people pleasing, there is a covert story in the background of if I give this, then this person will stay. But that's not what I'm talking about. In the giving that's like abundant and truly just about giving of love, there is no concern of what you're gonna get on the back end. It's purely about like, how can I be of service? How can I give most? And in this process of giving, I learn more about like the relationship that I like. The other person learns more about what it's like to actually be in a relationship that is full of love instead of full of like covert manipulation in the back end. But it's hard to unwind these things, which is why like the inner work is so important, you know? Like it's really hard to tease out am I doing this because I want something or am I doing this just to serve?

SPEAKER_02 38:43

Yeah. Scorekeeping does not work, especially in relationships like this that feel imbalanced because both partners are seeing a different scoreboard. Yeah. He might see it as, oh, it's like 20 to 19. Like, I haven't been doing the best, but I'm like pretty close. And she might see it as like 20 to one, you know, because the acts of service, the words of asked for affirmation that he's valuing, she's actually not, right? And so there are these stealth assumptions underneath that must be named, right? And that might be, you know, this thing. When I get her flowers, that's really important to her. And it's like it changes a lot. And she's like, actually, that doesn't really mean that much to me. Right. And so bringing these stealth assumptions to the surface of how you are assuming it feels like care for her or feels like care for you, and what actually feels like care is really important. And then there's also you talked about like these covert things operating underneath the surface, especially for people pleasing behavior. There's also these like stealth expectations of oh, when I got our flowers, I was expecting that we were gonna have sex, you know, and then it didn't happen. It's like nothing's being communicated. There's so much that's being taken for granted underneath the surface in a relationship where there hasn't been connection, and it's not gonna change anything.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

Which is what brings us back to that conversation we were initially talking about. It's like that initial conversation of like being so clear and vulnerable about like what you're expecting, what where the misses, what it's making you feel like when the other person misses everything being on the table. And when there hasn't been those conversations, it's really hard to have that first one. But honestly, without those conversations, there's no chance of the relationship to repair. And so the truth is like you either have that really vulnerable conversation, or you just assign yourself to being in a relationship that isn't satisfying, or you leave. And so if you really want to go through the discernment process, you have the conversation, you give everything a fighting chance, and then you either get to choose to stay or to leave. And so we've been talking about all of these ways of like, okay, how do we approach a relationship in a new way so that we can give it a chance of staying? But what happens when you get to the point where you're like, actually, I think this is complete? Like, how do we start having that conversation or do the hard thing when you know it really does feel like we've put in all the effort we can? And truly, like, this is kind of a genuine question on my end, because when I was ending relationships before you, you know, it's like I don't feel like I really had the skills to try in the way that we're suggesting. You know, it's like I tried as best I could for every relationship I ever had, but the repairs that I was seeking or the bids for love that I was desiring or the clarity that I was offering simply like wasn't clear enough, I guess, for the partnerships that I had. And so the phases of effort that I was experiencing were these like, okay, there's effort and then it falls away. Okay, there's effort and then it falls away. And, you know, eventually for all of those relationships, that got me to the place of like, okay, this effort can't last. So I'm complete. But I don't feel like I've ever really been in a relationship where it was like, okay, we're really going to come together in this way to make this effort for a period of time and then decide together, like, if it's working or not.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

I think that loop is really important to recognize is there's first there's conflict, then there's panic, oh no, this person's gonna leave. Then there's effort put in. That effort wanes when things get back to normal, and then trust is broken again, and that process repeats over and over again, and then when it repeats enough, yeah, you get to a place where it's like this isn't working, and that knowing is known in stillness, it's known in the absence of substances, the absence of outside counsel, right? So, whatever decision there comes to, it's like that's the place of authentic truth. The alternative place is like frantic and frenetic, and oh, it's desperate, and I must hold on. And that will probably come again after you have this grounded moment of stillness and authentic this is over. So that's something to watch out for. I think that you asked me a question. I'm not exactly sure what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

I did, but now that you're saying this, I want to say something else first. Is over and over again, what I've seen and experienced in partnerships is like someone bringing something to the table and basically the other person not realizing how serious it is. And so there are so many stories of people saying, like, oh, this breakup just came out of nowhere. But 99% of breakups don't come out of nowhere. Like the truth is that the bid for connection has happened multiple times. Whether it occurred in, you know, an optimally conscious conversation, like we're talking about or not, the bid for connection happened multiple times. The expression for the way that the person wasn't feeling met happened multiple times and it wasn't taken seriously. And so a pillar of partnership is whether you think it's important or not, if your partner is stating it, it is important. And it must be the most important thing to you to write if the relationship is actually important. If the relationship isn't important, then don't do anything with it. But if the relationship is truly important, then you will take that bid for connection and that offering of here's how I'm not being met as the new priority in your life. Because otherwise, you will experience a breakup that apparently comes out of nowhere. But for the other person, it's not coming out of nowhere. They've talked to you about it many, many times. And that is like probably the most common thing that's talked about when someone is grieving a partnership is I just, I'm so confused. This came out of nowhere. But but the reality is that it didn't come out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

Yeah, and it's not a result of ill intent, it's just a result of negligence. And you're exactly right. If your relationship is the most important relationship to you after God and after self, then everything that she's bringing up or he's bringing up is a big deal. It's like the most important thing to you. And so, yeah, relationships, blind side breakups don't happen overnight. It happens through repeated negligence. It happens through repetitively not claiming the office of leadership and the responsibility to steer your relationship based on the road signs that she's giving you. It's like if you don't follow the map, very quickly you're gonna wind up in a place that you're not trying to go. And so every time your partner offers adjustments or needs, it's like those are signs on the road towards the relationship that hopefully you want. And if you don't want, it's important to be transparent about hey, I'm actually not willing to do these things and you deserve more. And it's not it's not me.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Yeah, and it's like the practice is really simple. You know, it's like we say similar things on this podcast often, but it's because life is much more simple than humans want to think it is. It's like if you don't have a personal practice, if you don't have community, if you don't have support, this process of working on what's being brought to you will not work. It's like you can't have a conversation where someone says this is important to me, and then just be like, okay, like I'll do better next time. You won't. If it's not an intentional process of figuring out why you showed up in that way, what the wound is that causes you to act in this way and how to shift it, you won't show up better next time. There can't be a plan of action if you don't understand the subconscious reason that it's occurring. And so if you don't have a personal practice to like contemplate your own behavior, and if you don't have someone supporting you externally, both in community and someone who's like completely objective from your life, then you won't be able to see why it's occurring and it won't get better. That is the truth. It will not get better without intentional support and action.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

Yeah. And it sometimes it seems like relationships are the last things that people work on, right? It's like guys are excited to like learn an instrument and they're on YouTube, like learning to play the instrument, or they're excited about uh a new gym workout and they're like putting it in their phones and like tracking their workouts and putting all this effort into these other things. It's like we know that effort applied yields results. And you can work on a relationship in the same way. I think sometimes it feels abstract to guys who haven't done the work, but it's really not. If you listen to this podcast consistently, it's very simple. It's not easy, but you can apply effort, you can study and learn the same way you learn anything else to become more masterful at building and leading the relationship that you want. Simple, not easy, don't overcomplicate it.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

Yeah. So that just felt like an important thing to add is no matter how much you want to tell yourself that story, relationships don't end out of nowhere, period. It is completely a result of you choosing not to create the effort that was asked of you. And if you don't want to admit that, then that's okay. But eventually you will need to if you ever want a healthy relationship. So the question I had asked you is when people get to this point of, okay, we tried, or at least I tried. And I had the conversations and I put in the effort, and I really did go through this like gentle discernment process of can there be anything else that I can do to show up differently and make this relationship flourish? But instead, I got to the point of actually know how do we have that conversation? Where do we go from there?

SPEAKER_02 49:51

Well, doing what you just said well makes things a lot easier in this conversation and beyond. So we've been using this like landing the plane analogy. So at this point, it's like the wheels are down, the wing flaps are up, and you're about to land this thing. Because you've had these vulnerable conversations leading up to this point. Honestly, this conversation doesn't need to be overly long. It's hey, this sucks. And we've talked and we've tried, and I'd asked for what I need, and I haven't seen the change that I needed to see. I know the kind of relationship that I want, and it's really sad that we weren't able to access it here, but I need to bet on me and go after the possibility that it's available somewhere else, and I believe that it is. And that's like, I mean, breakups are hard, and landing the plane in that way takes a lot of intentionality, it takes a lot of patience and self-awareness and kindness to not blame, to not point the finger, and to just say that piece, right? And then I'll add that after that conversation, what we prescribe to all of our clients is a no-contact period. I mentioned earlier that after you make that grounded decision, it's likely that this frenzied, frenetic part of you that's afraid of loss of love, of never finding anybody again, is gonna want to reach out and go back and feel the comfort and the closeness that still lives in that relationship. But that's gonna gum everything up. It's gonna make everything feel unclear when your once were so clear. And so, in that breakup conversation, expressing that need in that moment of like, hey, I don't know if there's a possibility of a friendship for us in the future for us to reorient in the way that we relate to each other. But what I need right now is 40 days, no contact, and then at the end of that 40 days, we can have another conversation, or I might tell you that, hey, um, I need another 40 days or however long it is.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

Or I'm complete.

SPEAKER_02 52:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 52:15

Yeah, and something that is also really important about the separation conversation is like the truth is that only one person can be in the seat of partnership. Obviously, there are people who do partnership differently, but for this partnership of monogamy and you know, sovereign union that we share, only one person can be in that seat. And so, as you're sharing that, you know, I'm gonna bet on myself and know that I can have the relationship that I desire, even when it is hurtful and uncomfortable for the person sitting across from you, it is also a gift. Like really being able to zoom out from the discomfort into the room, into the beauty that can be in life is important because if they're sitting in that seat before you, no one else can sit there. And if you're sitting in that seat before them, no one else can sit there. And as much as it's going to feel like a trauma in that moment, potentially, it is actually a gift. And I always say that the relationships that I left where I was still in love are the hardest, you know, the relationships where not something didn't happen and I loved the person, but I just knew that our people were elsewhere. Like that was such an act of love to know that you know that person was gonna get to be with their person, just like I was gonna get to be there. And you know, they might not believe it in the moment, but if you have done this discernment process with them, maybe they do believe it in the moment. But in any case, like it is true. If the person before you isn't your person, then you're not theirs either. And it is a gift to both of you to be able to walk away from something that's not fully aligned. And the process of dying is uncomfortable. You know, the process of withering away is uncomfortable. And the truth is that there are emotional and energetic and probably physical ties, depending on how deep you are in the relationship between the two of you. And as those things get separated, it will be painful. And it will be much easier to just like, you know, hook up with each other when you're moving your stuff out of each other's spaces. Like, no. Like that restarts the whole process. It must be clear. Like you must have the conversation about what belongs to who and move out separately and go through the paperwork process as administratively as possible, and just like let the emotional and energetic discomfort occur and get support from other people, ideally, not people you're sleeping with. Ideally, you are like no contact, no relationship involvement with anyone for 40 days, because the discomfort that is rising that makes you want to engage with people in lovership is the surface layer of the grief that's beneath. And until you really process the grief of all of the loneliness that you felt and all of the misunderstanding that you felt and all of the ways that you didn't get met, you won't have a healthy partnership in the future. Like you really must sit with those pieces in order for that to fully seal, in order for the heart to mend so that it can open again in a way that's healthy instead of a way that is like trying to cover up a wound.

SPEAKER_02 55:56

Yeah. As much interest and attraction and even love that exists post-breakup for somebody else, it cannot be separated from the impulse to use that person as a salve for your wound, for your brief about the breakup. And, you know, if you go through this process that we've talked about on this podcast, one outcome is that the relationship does improve, and you guys wind up in a new relationship with each other, and you're so so grateful at the work that you've gone through. And the other side is that the relationship ends. And if you do this process, like we've talked about, you know, every breakup is an initiation. And what I mean by that is a powerful opportunity for growth and for personal change. And you can choose that initiation when the breakup happens, you can choose it three months later, you can choose it five years later, you can choose it never. But if you've approached it in this really mindful and intentional way, both of you are really primed to step into that initiation immediately and not spend more time in pain than is necessary. There will be pain and it will arrive at surprising intervals, but it really sets both of you up for a much brighter and better future.

SPEAKER_00 57:25

I was just thinking, um, you know, we had our, I don't know exactly what it's called, but basically our breakup podcast. And the comments that we got on that podcast are, well, sometimes you can work things out. And this conversation shows, like, yes, sometimes you can work things out. But I want to highlight that the place that people get stuck is continuously telling that story. Like, but just this one conversation made me feel better. And like we, I keep sharing how I'm feeling, and they keep promising and they keep promising, or I keep promising, or I keep promising, but I'm promising things that just feel like too much. And I feel like the greatest act of love that someone might be able to do for someone else in some cases is say, I hear you keep asking for this, and I can't give you what you need.

SPEAKER_03 58:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 58:19

Instead of making the other person tell you you can't give me what you need, which sometimes you will have to do, being able to say, I just can't do it. Like this is you're not too much, but what you're asking of me, I don't have the ability to do is so important. And so the the true discernment of like when to stay or when to go comes from this place of being truly honest with yourself, of like, am I holding on to something that's dead?

SPEAKER_02 58:52

Yeah. Saying that, you know, I can't give you what you need is like one of the most compassionate things that you can say. Instead of giving just enough that it allows the other person to convince themselves that you can give them what they bread crumbing, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:09

Yeah. Yeah. So if you're going through this process, we really feel for you. And you know, we've given the outline of like how to do it optimally and consciously. And also I want to honor that sometimes that can't happen. You know, sometimes we're not in a place where we can create any more spaciousness. Sometimes we're in a place where that knowing just comes through. And however the knowing comes through that it's time to go, if that is the place of your relationship. Like the longer you postpone that, the harder it is. And with relationships and partnerships specifically, it's like you're gonna move in together, you're gonna get a dog together, you're gonna get engaged, get married, have kids. And it's like every subsequent step makes it even harder to leave, but no subsequent step is going to turn a no into a yes. And it really is this act of courage and compassion to be able to say, no matter how far you are in the journey, like this isn't for me anymore. Because the unwinding, even if you are already married and have kids, like there's decades of your life left. And you can either live those decades of life wondering if the puzzle piece is ever gonna fit again, or accepting that it doesn't fit any longer. And it will always be a gift when you are the person who says no to something that's a no.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:47

Yeah, this process that we've talked about is really arduous. Like even talking about it has like warned me out. I'm so grateful that I never have to do it again. Like it makes me sick to my stomach. Like it's a really, really hard thing to do. And you know, avoidance is a strategy. You could like not do this stuff and avoid. And that's gonna give you some short-term relief, but avoidance will never take away your fear. Like avoidance will never take away the truth that's itching inside of you. And really just like lean in and you're not gonna do it right every step of the way. I just read a quote from Richard Rohr that, you know, we grow much more spiritually from doing things wrong and doing things right. That you're gonna stumble and trip over this process and it's gonna be ugly some of the way, but I guarantee that you're gonna learn so much about yourself and what you're worth and realistically the kind of relationship that that is available to you and to all of us.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:51

Yeah. So homework. If you are not in this phase, send this podcast to someone who is. And if you are in this phase, have a conversation. Whether that is based on all the ways that you haven't been being met, or if you've already been trying and you have this knowing that it's complete, you know, like really take some time, maybe like 20 minutes in the morning to free rate everything that's on your mind, and then be courageous enough and loving enough to yourself and the person across from you to have the conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:32

Yeah, or if you're the one that's been trying to right the relationship, like you're the one that's kind of in playing catch up and you're confused why it isn't improving, or you feel like you're doing the right things, have that open and honest conversation. Like, hey, I've really been trying on my end. These are the things that I've been doing, and I just haven't been feeling the response from you. And that can go one of two ways. Either, yeah, I'm just not responsive because I'm I'm checked out and this is done. Or yeah, I see that you've been trying, but there are actually some things that mean more to me than the things that you've been doing. And if you implement those, your efforts gonna go a lot further.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:17

Yeah. Anything else?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:19

No, that's it. We love you guys so much.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:21

We love you.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:22

Uh leave us a rating, a review. You can email us at contact at the wellworshipman.com. It's close to when this episode is live, that I'll still be active. And if not, you'll have to find us somewhere else.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:36

See you next week.