#34: Codependency vs Interdependency: How Healthy Relationships Actually Work

Facing challenges as a couple isn’t about the he-said she-said. It’s about the underlying energy patterns that are present. Today’s episode will show you exactly what we mean, and to learn how to do this work in your relationship, start by watching our free training:

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What starts as a conversation about codependency and its more mature sibling interdependency, quickly becomes a live masterclass as we work on our relationship in real-time, using the advanced techniques we teach in our summer group course, RECLAMATION. Isaac shares his journey of unwinding from codependent, people-pleasing patterns, the inner work he’s doing with his inner teenager, and the dangers of not saying “No.” Jessica feels her way through the way roles have shifted in our relationship, the requirements to hold space for Isaac’s inner teenager, and her own process of working with her old abandonment wounds on a more granular level. 

This episode truly is a window into what it looks like when two partners committed to their own self-understanding enter into an honest dialogue and emerge more connected to each other.

There’s no way to experience relationship as a path to spiritual development without understanding the underlying energy patterns influencing your partnership. We’ll teach you how in our upcoming course. Learn more here: https://www.sovereignunion.co/reclamation

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Transcript

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Interdependence is a sign of a healthy ecosystem and healthy relationships. Codependency is a fallacy. It can be disorienting. People being around each other often is not really what codependency is. I want independence and I also want to remain close. I want freedom and I'm also staying. Is the paradox that you couldn't tolerate. If I am not doing this for you, there will be loss of love. Oh, they do everything together. They can't do anything by themselves. This is like healing happening in real time. We've never recorded a podcast like this before. I think this is really good. Welcome to the Well Worship Man podcast, where men come to build unshakable presence, become the rock in their relationships, and build a legacy that lasts beyond their years. Here, we explore the path to mature masculinity, your humble power, daily devotion, and unwavering integrity. Thanks, baby. Before we get started, if you're listening on YouTube, please subscribe. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, leave us a rating. It helps these messages reach more of the people who need it most. And as a gift for your listening, we have a free resource for you in the description. It is called Reclamation, and it is really special because it leads into a course that we're going to be offering this summer. And when you click that link, what you'll get is a free meditation and a free training that explains and helps you identify why discipline, motivation, and time management aren't your problems when it comes to building the life that you want to build. It is just a life force capacity and direction problem. So grab that resource, it's in the show notes, and we're excited to dive in today. What are we talking about today, baby? Today we are talking about the balance between freedom and sovereignty versus like codependency or uh attachment, I guess would be the best way to intro it. And this came up for us because we were going through like a little recalibration phase, which we'll share a little bit about as we work through this podcast. Yeah, I think this is a really important conversation because the the type of relationship that we embody and teach is sovereign union. There's really two words in that. There's sovereign, right? Maintaining one's independence, not becoming enmeshed or codependent. And also the second piece of that is union, is being interdependent, is keeping that closeness. And so sometimes there is this tension between the independence that sovereignty entails and the closeness that union entails. Yeah. And when there is a recalibration phase of anything, there's always some discomfort. So as a member of the partnership or any relationship really tries to regain some sovereignty, whether that be in setting boundaries or in time to themselves or um in their own creative process, there's going to be a little bit of stickiness as you know, new new paths are formed. And what that can feel like is, oh, my partner's withdrawing from me, or oh, you don't want to spend as much time with me. Or why are you abandoning me? You know? And it's really important to understand that while there may be some partnerships where, you know, someone is pulling away because they're trying to leave, this process that we're talking about is specifically like one person in the partnership is coming home to themselves more and understanding, you know, their needs better and how they need to navigate their day and what that looks like for them. And in that process, it might feel to the other partner like spaciousness is created. And so we wanted to talk about like what that is and how to navigate that. Yeah. And it's gonna be really helpful for the audience for us to share what we've been navigating, and that's the inspiration for us sharing this conversation. But, you know, neither one of us would identify our relationship as codependent. Um, and there are some people out there that are in codependent relationships and wouldn't identify their relationship as codependent. So before we go into our personal process, which is one of me claiming more independence, can you share what a codependent relationship looks like? Yeah. So traditionally, I think the way that people will talk about codependency is like, oh, they do everything together. They can't do anything by themselves. And while that might be an expression or a symptom of codependency, people being around each other often is not really what codependency is. You know, there are some partnerships that actually function really well with doing a lot of things together because their path is like so fully aligned. You know, like we work together. Yeah. And there are other couples who would never work together. And like that works for them. But codependency really is seeking value through the need to be needed by someone else. And so if you say, don't want to spend as much time with me, suddenly I am feeling unworthy of love or like I'm less valuable, or like I need to offer you something in order to gain your love back. That's truly what codependency is, is I don't feel or see or understand my own value unless other people need me. Yeah. Yeah. Codependency looks like one person having needs that they believe can only be met by their partner. They can't meet those needs for themselves. So they are 100% reliant on their partner to meet the needs. And when I talk about relationship, you have something? I was just gonna double down on like we're talking about two different sides of the same coin of codependency. So like one partner might feel like they're valueless unless their partner needs them, and the other person feels like they are valueless without the other partner meeting their needs. Um, and both partners can play both roles. Um, but the the crux of it is that the person doesn't feel whole or valuable without the experience of the other person in their field. The two sides of the coin is one partner needs the other to need them, and the other partner needs the other partner to meet their needs. Right. And so it's this perfect, toxic meshing. And it's often called enmeshment. And, you know, we talk about sovereign union, is really one plus one, you plus me equals infinity. It's so generative, it's so creative. Um, in a codependent relationship, one plus one equals one. There's this erasure of self. And so what's left behind is not, there's no longer two individuals, there's just the relationship. Yeah. And I had a I had a mentor once who actually took a stance on codependency that said, codependency is a fallacy. Like, actually, we do need each other. But that really comes down to what we were talking about earlier of like, that's what interdependence is. Like, yes, we need each other, and humans are have evolved to be in connection with one another. And we do function optimally when we have like other relationships and a whole ecosystem of support. But this is different. This is like the system isn't necessarily functioning in health. And without the presence of the other person, someone's nervous system is going into a state of survival or fear or unworthiness or whatever all their stories are. And so in sovereign union, you know, interdependence is important, but also independence and sovereignty. And you talk a lot about humanness and evolution is really measured by our ability to hold paradox. And that is really what sovereign union is. It's the paradox of like sovereignty and union. And that's what interdependency and independence together do is they create this health of like, yes, I can hold myself, and also sometimes I need you to hold me, or yes, you can hold me, but also sometimes I need to hold myself. So just kind of clarifying these terms a little bit, you know, interdependence is a sign of a healthy ecosystem and healthy relationships. Codependency is something different. Yeah, and codependency, you you lose your individual interests. There's this emerging, you kind of become like the same person, and then there's no differentiation between the two of you. Um ready to talk about us? Yeah. So you know, we are walking ourselves through reclamation, which is our upcoming course this summer. And as part of that, there are parts that are coming up. When we say parts, we mean parts as in parts work. So subpersonalities or these inner energy patterns, the ones that most people are familiar with are the inner child and the inner critic and and maybe a few others. Um, but what's been coming through for me, like demanding my attention, has been my inner teenager. And his biggest desire is independence, freedom. His biggest fear is losing himself or or losing that independence. And so it's really been a recalibration for us of me wanting more time to myself, of me saying no, of me saying not now, and yeah, I guess what's what's been coming up for you as that part of me comes forward. Well, I think that's something that is important to just asterisk in this conversation is like if you've never done parts work, something that's important to know is that as you start working, before you start working with parts while they start asking for your attention, and then when you start working with them, it is really a working of your inner psyche and allowing these pieces of you and their voices to come forward in a state of conscious awareness and acknowledging that like maybe the they've been speaking through you subconsciously prior to you being conscious of them. And so as you start working with parts, you know, they're the behaviors of like literally Isaac as a teenager come out in certain ways. And I actually hadn't thought about this before, but in a past partnership that I had, I didn't have the understanding of like how to hold a partner going through parts work. And it felt to me like, oh my gosh, I fell in love with this person that I thought was like a man. Now they're acting like a child and like I'm holding all the space and I can't. And so, you know, when we come into partnership, it's not just committing to be in relationship with the person before us, but committing to be in relationship with them when they are in a phase of healing, you know, a wounded piece of themselves. And so for our process, what happened was like this in in our teenager, anytime he felt like his freedom was threatened a little bit, he would just talk with like a little bit of a different energy than how I'm used to being spoken to. And as we spoke about it, you know, it's kind of like we we understand what's going on in our partnership pretty quickly, you know, and I'm really grateful for that. But I found that with my own process and in all that I was holding, it was just challenging. And I remember saying that to you one night over dinner of like, I'm just having a hard time. Like, I really want to hold this part of you with compassion, but I'm just like having a hard time doing it. And I feel like that was the first piece of understanding, like, okay, this is actually having an impact. Yeah, you know, because it's like we want to create some spaciousness for these parts of us that are desiring more care and more tenderness, and for you more freedom. And we always say this, but one of the things that catalyzes change is like recognition of impact, you know. Yeah, and for anybody in relationship with someone who starts to surface another part, it can be disorienting. You know, in our relationship, nearly all the time, I'll say most of the time, I'm mature and grounded and thoughtful. And so when this part of me that's just like doing my own thing, and then you come in the house and he wants to keep doing his own thing, this immature part rears its head, right? It's a teenager, and so that's an adjustment. It's like what you said in a previous partnership of you being like, oh no, this person isn't who I thought they were. Uh, but the process of revisiting those parts, um, caring for them and allowing them to mature will actually allow you to experience more of your partner. So I really, you know, have a lot of gratitude for you and your ability to create space and hold space for that process to unravel. Um, because when you have the tools like we do, once you start to rebuild relationships with these parts, they mature rather quickly and they're willing to team up with you. They're willing, you know, for me, the inner teenager is willing to understand better ways of communicating his needs with you. So initially it's kind of abrupt, but if the two of you can get on the same page about what's actually happening, not what's said, not how it was said, but the underlying energy system or part that is surfacing, it can really become a beautiful and interesting process if you're like a junkie for healing, like we are. Yeah. And as you're talking, I'm just seeing, you know, okay, well, questions pop up of well, what if I am seeing a part of my partner come up, but you know, it's creating a lot of dissonance. What do we do? And it really is this key of both of you getting on the same page of what's actually happening, you know, and it the first couple of little, like, ooh, ow, like, why did you talk to me like that? Um, little moments, we got lost in these loops of like the physical place. Like, I wanted you to sit on the couch next to me here and you didn't. Totally. And there really is this teaching coming through of like, if you are talking about what the miscommunication was in the present moment, you're having the wrong conversation. Like, yes, there may be words that need to be said of, okay, I'm really sorry. I said that thing that way, and I don't want to speak to you that way, and I'm working to speak differently. But in parts work, there is a an awareness that it's not 30-year-old Isaac talking to me in that moment. It's 15-year-old Isaac who wants not only his freedom, but wants to be respected for the decisions he's making in his freedom. And he is unintegrated because of whatever was going on in his life at that time. And so then the conversation becomes okay, how do I bring presence to this instead of reacting? And that's really the challenge because any human, when they're spoken to in any way that's outside of like pure love and affection, wants to respond in defensiveness. It's like, okay, your part's activated. Now I have a part that's activated. And so for those of you listening that are wondering, like, what do I actually do? It's like you guys have to have a conversation outside of the rupture repair cycle to get on the same page. And really, both of you have to spend time in your own space discerning what parts are being activated so that we can give presence to that. And the work is in that in moments like that when your freedom's being, you know, triggered. Feels like it's being constrained. Yeah. To him. Then I can say, hey, this feels like a teenager thing. And immediately that brings presence and breath into the conversation as opposed to my other part that was coming up reacting, which then just gets us in a mess of like energetics and timelines and wounds that have a hard time being solved when anyone's activated. Yeah. And I want to get into what part my teenager invoked in you. And I think it's really important to state, you know, one revelation that I'm having personally right now is, you know, this inner teenager is like 15, 16, 17 of like, you know, I got a car and like really this newfound autonomy is coming online, you know, and I made some poor decisions at that age and felt like I was punished, you know, grounded, confined. And I just wanted to feel like my parents trusted my decisions. And I didn't have any tools then. So it's like what happened in that moment of like, oh shit, my parents don't trust me. I didn't feel that, like, I didn't process that. I compartmentalized that so that I felt like I could survive in the new confines that had been placed on me. I just wanted to share something that I'm learning in this moment. And kind of back to the conversation that's valuable to the listeners is that it's not just, oh, I've identified my inner teenager is here and he wants independence. And great, I'm just gonna let it rip. It's like people that are like, oh, I've like discovered my attachment style. Um, anxious attachment, great, like I can move on now. It's like, no, that is like only the trailhead for this process to be productive and create more love in the relationship. I have to actually sit in my personal practice with my inner teenager consistently and repetitively and build a relationship with him and understand what he needs from me to help him understand what I need from him, what his fears are. So it's not just like, oh, I know what's happening. It's like you have to really enter into this personal exploration. And if you don't know how to do that, if you don't have those tools, those skills, we have them. Yeah. So in learning how to communicate well with each other when a partnership is going through a phase of recalibration, really understanding that you know, you're in partnership. So while this inner teenager of yours came up first, it is always pretty much going to catalyze a part of my own self coming to the surface. And that's the beauty. That's basically what we teach, like relationship as an evolutionary process. You know, there are phases that are just like absolute love portals, and then there are phases where it's like, okay, we are in school with spirit and each other right now. And that's what we're doing. Classes in session, classes in session, the initiations are imminent. Um, and so that is something to understand because otherwise, there will just be blame placed on the person who is initially activating their part because their behavior is going to be out of character. And so rather than the conversation being what most people have of you need to stop doing this thing that's creating these ruptures because it's hurting me. That's like the basis of most attempted repair conversations. The conversation becomes like, are you okay? You're acting out of character, what's going on? So that we can hear, you know, which part of you is coming alive. But then also I have to sit with myself. Like, why does this feel uncomfortable to me? And it took a few rounds actually for me to understand what was being activated. And, you know, the first thing I'll share is a little bit of an analogy of like when you're in full darkness and you come out into normal sunlight, it feels very, very bright. But actually, if you just wait a little while, you'll realize that we love the sunlight in the day and the sun's just doing its thing and it's not actually harming us. And so a similar thing happens in these recalibrations where it's like our relationship was in one state, and now my like blindfold's being taken off, or both our blindfolds are being taken off to. What even more aligned sovereignty feels like. But because in our blindness, we thought we knew what sovereignty felt like, this new level feels jarring. And so, in that recalibration phase, this new level of sovereignty that feels like way too much light for my eyes in the beginning, I have my own wounds activated. And on the spectrum of sovereignty, what it feels like is you pulling away. And I wouldn't necessarily have been able to identify that had we only been having physical plain conversations. It's like only when we started talking about the energetics could I see and understand that energetically, when you're asking for more space, my system, because of my own wounds, is going to perceive it as Isaac's leaving. So I have my own abandonment wounds and I have history of relationships where like everything was going really well, and then someone started to pull away. And so we started to realize this pattern of, you know, someone going down this path and seeking more sovereignty might mirror someone else's abandonment wounds or trigger their codependency a little bit, which I would never have identified as being codependent. You know, like I haven't really had that in my field much. But what was happening in our ecosystem is like you're wanting to do things by yourself. And I'm like, no, I'll do it for you. I'll do it for you. You're like, no, I want to do it. And that is just a symptom of me feeling your distance, and then me, this small part of me being like, Well, if you need me, then you won't create distance. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm seeing, you know, spiritual maturity is the bare ability to tolerate paradox. And, you know, when you're moving through this process, the paradox that you couldn't tolerate is that I want independence and I also want to remain close. I want freedom and I'm also staying, is the paradox that you couldn't tolerate. And, you know, in the initial phases, when we identify these parts, you know, the part of you that feared abandonment and the part of me that wanted independence, it seems like they're at odds with each other, right? Because it's the more that you try to do things for me or maintain closeness, the more distance that I want, and the more distance that I want, the more you fear abandonment, or this part fears abandonment. So it's like, ooh, the more they work together, the more the stretch happens. But actually, when you have these tools and these skills and you're committed to your partner, these two parts that are coming up for us are the perfect match for us to understand ourselves and our relationship patterns better. They're actually not pushing us apart, they're actually bringing us closer together, which is another paradox because it feels like they're at odds, but actually they're presenting in perfect divine design. You know, we have an episode of this podcast where we talk about like the the importance of true security and partnership. How to create real security and partnership. Yeah. And as you're talking about, you know, these two parts being the perfect match, it's a different concept, but the run chase works similarly with someone with like an anxious virtue versus an avoidant attachment. It's like if someone with an anxious and someone with an avoidant attachment are committed to being in secure partnership with one another, then there's no one better to help them understand their wounds than each other. The issue is in getting the avoidant to like commit to a secure partnership. But this is kind of the more stable example of that, where we're not avoiding anything and I'm not anxiously like begging you to stay. We're in this committed partnership and we are devoted to this path of continuously attuning to alignment, which is essentially always going to feel like, oh, I thought I was aligned, but now I see more. Oh, I thought I was aligned, but now I see more. And it's this like repetitive unlayering of specificity. So anyone who would have looked at us before would have said, Yeah, like they're secure and they are sovereign, which was true. And also there's this new layer of just like you coming to know yourself better. Yeah. And also on this journey of conscious relationship, it's really common that the roles flip. You know, let's say that one person was initially more anxious and the other person was more avoidant. And then as you start to mature and heal that divide and become closer, sometimes it flip-flops. And I see that here because I think up to this point, you've been the more independent one, right? And I've been more like, well, you want this solo before we live together, like, oh, you want these two nights a week where we don't spend the night? We can spend the night every night, you know. So I'm seeing those roles flip. And as each partner learns to occupy each role, the relationship becomes more of a dance and more flexible and less rigid. And so this conversation is actually helping me uh get excited about this change that we're going through. If you've been looking for community and guidance that will change your life for good, we have something for you. We're pausing this conversation to introduce something to you that we're so excited about. Our upcoming course, reclamation. Reclamation isn't just another three-month course where you change during the course of the container and then go back to your old ways afterwards. It's not playing whack-a-mole with individual habits and vices and toxic relationship patterns. It is the solution to finding the root of it all so that you can wipe all of it off the table. And it's without white knuckling or discipline or willpower. The only issue that you have is life force mastery. And this is the solution. So no matter where you are on your journey, whether you're just beginning and feel completely immersed in gray clouds of your own mess, or you've been on this path for a while and are just looking to fine-tune your devotion to your journey, whether you identify as a man or a woman, we want all of you in this community with us so that we can all rise together. To learn more and register, click the link in the description and we'll see you when we start. Yeah, and it's it's ringing of a theme that we've been working with lately of what is this present moment asking for? Like we don't have the medicine of the moment. The medicine. Exactly, the medicine of the moment. So we don't have to play these roles all the time. Like we don't have to, in the beginning, when we're creating our foundation, in order for us to not spend all of our time together and actually have like the solo time that we both really value and now are pretty good at, we kind of did need those rules of like two nights a week, we're not spending the night. But now, you know, you're learning how to create spaciousness for yourself a little bit more consistently. And I'm learning that that spaciousness isn't a desire away from me. It's just a desire to connect with yourself, which are not the same thing. Um, and as those skills are developed, then in every moment it's like, okay, what do we individually need and what does this partnership need? Okay, now in this moment, what do we individually need and what does this partnership need? Instead of like blanket statement rules of we do these things together, but not these things, you know? Yeah. And you know, the granularity of moment to moment and being able to be agile between different roles is really the mastery of relationship. You know, like in the beginning it's like okay, this is a whole last season where, for example, the man is uh in his masculine and the woman is in her feminine, right? And then maybe it becomes a week or a few hours, or you're making love and you can dance between different roles from moment to moment, minute to minute, and what that takes really is exploration and discovery of all of these parts so that you can develop such a loving relationship with each of them that there's no resistance for you from you entering into them, and and also that each of the parts is mature, so that it's contributing to the love and connection and none of these like ulterior motives of self-protection are present. Yeah, I I'm feeling like us talking also about how we are individually caring for these parts can be helpful, you know. It's like we talk all the time about spirit first and then self and then partnership. And you know, I'm almost feeling like, how dare this part of me that has an abandonment wound get in the way of your sovereignty? You know, it's like that is like not the order of operations, you know. But like you said, I'm the one that historically has been needed more time to myself, which I think was just because of you know the phases of life that we were that I was in. And so that was cool with my abandonment part because it's like I'm the one making the decision. And then when I come back, you're always down to hang. And even then I'm seeing that, you know, when it's like, oh, I'm actually not gonna sleep at your house for the next week, I would I would be like, Oh, like, are you leaving me? Yeah, you know, like a soft, like not as big of a fear as I have, as you have. Thank you. Yeah, I didn't want to say it before you, uh, but it was but it was there. Yeah, yeah. And so when there is a phase of the relationship really processing something on this path of relational evolution, it's like it is it is an invitation for us to understand ourselves better. Like, yes, if we do that work appropriately, we will also be in deeper union because the deeper I meet myself, the deeper I can meet you. But ultimately, my trigger of you desiring more spaciousness, and it's crazy because as we're talking about this, I'm like, really? He just wanted to make pizza for himself. And I was like, let me make it. I've been making your food for 40 days. I like it, you know, like it's such and I'm like, this is a creative project. I haven't like made all I've been cooking is like ground beef and cheese, and I've been working on this pizza since yesterday. But it's like such small ways, it's so interesting, like the way that our wounds come up. And we teach from one of our podcast guests, I forget who initially said this, but if it's hysterical, it's historical. We barely never aired. Oh, well, that was a great piece of medicine. Yeah, but like really understanding that if I'm having a big reaction internally or externally to something so small as that, then it really isn't ours. So it's an invitation for me to go inward. And initially, when people start this work, everyone knows, you know, like I know why I'm this way. My parents, da-da-da-da-da-da, my ex, da-da-da-da-da. But it's like the further you get down the path, it there's less knowns because you have actually healed the big wounds. And so it's not like at this phase of our relationship, we're like, oh yeah, I've been avoiding that for a while. I'm like, what? I have to work on this piece of myself that doesn't want you to leave. Like, I know, I know logically you're not leaving. And I know in my own heart, I'm not leaving. And I'm really thought that I healed all of these wounds on a lot of different layers. But to my own surprise, there is an even deeper way that I can understand my desire to not be left, or an even deeper way that I can hold a piece of me that feels like she deserves to be left. Yeah, and not just understand, but feel. Right. Yeah. Where we can't think our way out of a feeling problem. And that's the trouble that so many people run into and they're like, yeah, like I've talked about this with my therapist, I know why I am this way, but you've you've only experienced it mentally. Right. So even in this conversation, I'm knowing that there's a part of me, this inner teenager, to sit with and feel what happened when I made poor choices in high school and got grounded and felt like I was confined and felt like my parents didn't trust me to make my own decisions, which was totally rational on their end, you know, but still it created feelings within me that I didn't have the the capacity to to feel, to process. Yeah. And, you know, for my process, it's being able to recognize in the moment when I'm desiring to react to whatever aspect of your freedom is coming on board and holding that part of me. You know, like I don't have to force someone to stay. And in fact, we don't want to force someone to stay. Like, if for some reason this was an expression of you leaving, then you're not mine, you know, and it has nothing to do with for abandonment wounds specifically, like people leaving have nothing to do with who we are or our value. It's just is it the right fit or not? And like I've unwound that in many, many ways. I teach it all the time. I help other people process it, and still there's a couple of cells in my body that are still holding little pieces from an old relationship that that I get to sit with, you know, not in just the knowing. Although I do feel like once we sensed into the knowing of it, there was a huge wave that cleared. And also there are still emotional expressions that get to be felt and that we get to master and hold one another in before this process, you know, moves to completion. And so that feels like, yeah, another another key to just really understand is it it is about the knowing and the awareness, but it's not just about the knowing and the awareness, you know? Absolutely. This is like healing happening in real time. We've never recorded a podcast like this before. This is really good. Um I have a question. Okay, and it's about interdependency, right? So interdependency is like the mature sibling of codependency, right? And we talked earlier, like humans have evolved in relation to others. We are social creatures. But with this concept of interdependency, what I am massaging internally is you know how much of the way that you show up, the identity that you embody, the energy that you embody is a response to the energy that I bring, and how much of it is something that is just sourcing from an organic seed within yourself. I'm sure there's different perspectives on this, but the place that I will always is a tough word, but 99% of the time root into is that everything's actually a response to me in the story where I am the main character, which in my own consciousness and my own evolution, I must take that perspective. Everything that you do is a response to you. That's what you're saying. Everything outside of me is a response to me. Okay. So whether it's my conscious engagement or more often than not, a subconscious engagement, everything is a response to me. So through that narrative, what would the way that this podcast share would actually run is in me, there was a part of my own internal abandonment wound that was ready to be held. And so I created a reality that would spark the trigger of that. In your main story, in which you are the main character, everything you experience is in response to you. And so that is why we can teach the you must take 100% responsibility for your own life. Because then when I do that, it's my responsibility to work through my subconscious, it's my responsibility to hold this abandonment wound. It's my responsibility to not take the bait when your inner teen says something and actually to respond more consciously. And so with myself and when I'm supporting friends and when I'm supporting clients, like that is always the narrative that I will push is it's all you. How does that land? It's pretty trippy, you know, to think that you're creating everything and I'm creating everything, and that we're also having a shared experience. So there is this cooperative creation that you and I are bringing into existence, which is the union, you know. And I'm thinking of last night, you know, you wanted support on something. Um, and I had like just been like doing some pretty like deep work on this inner part of me. And instead of supporting you in the way that you wanted, I went about fixing, you know, the classic man thing. And I'm thinking that, you know, had I been resourced, had I been full capacity, had I really been in a place, had I really been rested in my awareness, I would have supported you in the way that you wanted to support. But because you know, my spine was a little like curved, I was a little tired, um, I didn't respond in that way. And so the way that I responded to you was actually a response to my internal state, right? And so, yeah, I think that in this interdependency, it is each individual's responsibility to show up in times of need, resourced, and at capacity, um, and and also have the practices to get yourself there when you're not. And to the point of your, you know, new levels of sovereignty and freedom, it's also that person's responsibility to say, I don't have capacity. Yeah. You know, like saying I can't talk about where we're gonna travel to this summer right now. Like you gotta do it or we gotta do it later, you know. And that part gets really tricky as well because when the way that we're contributing to an experience is by not removing to ourselves, it's very easy to like blame the other person, whether it's an unhealthy relationship or a rupture conversation or a work environment. You know, sometimes the way that we're contributing to our experience is the way that we're engaging. And sometimes the way that we're contributing to our experience is we haven't decided to leave yet. And that is equally as important, you know, to say, actually, I don't have the capacity to talk about this right now. Yeah. I want to help. It's really hard, but it's hard for me to say that uh I'm not going to right now. And there's a lot of nuance in this. We talked earlier about being able to flex between roles. And so if that was the norm, that would be a problem of me saying, Yeah, I want to help you with this, but I can't right now. It's like that's an indicator that I need to pour more into myself so I can show up in more circumstances. Um but also, you know, the on the other end of it, it's like, you want help? Okay, I'm gonna help you right now, no matter what I'm doing. If that's the if that's what's always present and that's how you're always leaning into, that's a problem too. That is borderline codependent, right? Which is interesting because now I'm wondering, like, oh, was there any not to like plant this upon your story, but I'm wondering if there was like a codependency thread on your end that got healed, like at some point over the past year, just like you really, you really were always like available and present in there for me. And maybe that was a capacity thing, like you just like weren't going through other things and my my process was much louder. Or if there was like some people pleasing stuff that was getting healed for you, yeah, that now in the in the recalibration, it's like the yeah, it's like the rolls are flipped. Well, like the progression of this for me individually is really interesting. You know, I was definitely a people pleaser a few relationships ago, I was in a codependent relationship. And I actually want to attract this backwards. So it's like you were in a 40 day fast, and I really was at your beck and call. Like for that 40 days, it's like I was in service of you. And if you needed anything, I would get to it as quickly as possible. Right. And sometimes that would mean putting my work to the side for a moment, you know? Um, and that was a season. And in the relationship before this, one of the big revelations after it ended was that I had been over providing for her. And that over-provider part was the perfect match for her damsel in distress part. And so she stopped providing for herself, right? I needed her to need me, right? So there's some codependency there as well. And then in the relationship before that, it was even more pronounced. Like that relationship that I just spoke about, there were no awarenesses of any codependence in it until it had ended. And I was reflecting on it. And then, which is often the case. Yeah. And then in the relationship before that, it was like that was full embodied people pleaser. And so, in the track of that relationship, the second relationship, and now this one, you know, uh providing for you on your 40-day fast to now, it's like you're not fasting, you have more capacity to provide for yourself. I think that there has been a lot of peeling of the layers of the onion of codependency and people pleasing and caretaking as a way to make sure my partner needed me. And now I don't I don't feel that way at all in this moment that that I need to do stuff for you for you to need me. Yeah. I feel like our conversation is like really um pinballing a little bit, but I it's so good, and I really want to speak to what I'm feeling in my body while you're talking about the unwinding of this people-pleasing narrative, and then you're saying, I don't really feel the need to be needed by you at all. It's like the fear in partners of not being who do have this thread of codependency or people pleasing or whatever, which has been both of us at various points, is if I am not doing this for you, there will be loss of love. If I am not doing this for you, then something in the relationship will be amiss. You know, like in the 40-day fast, I was like cooking all of these meals for you. And then there's a recalibration at the end where I'm like, is it okay if I don't cook all of these meals for you? Like, can it are you gonna be mad at me if I don't cook all of these meals for you now that I'm cooking some for myself and like also have more going on, you know? And so the that nature of like breaking that down, the fear is that there will be loss of love if I'm not showing up 100% of the time fully present and like armed and ready to go. And while that feels nice, like everyone loves to be served, you know, everyone loves to be like gifted presence and urgency and time and offerings and whatever. Um, but as you're painting this picture of the unwinding of things for us, what I was noticing is like I don't, I don't want a servant, I want a man. You know, like I don't want it's scary to me that you not this has not ever been the case. Like we're micro shifting your ability to say no. But if there was ever an experience in the past year where you needed to say no, you would have, you know. But like I don't feel that any partner in their core really wants any partner that can't say no to them, because all that does is creates a poor foundation of truth, like immediately truth and transparency and honesty are out the window. If I can't know fully that you can say no to me. And so even though there's like this little recalibration phase that we're having, it's like, good, like if you can't do something for me right now when I'm like offering you business admin in the middle of you in a creative portal, which is like not the time to do it anyways, you know, then like I can't trust you to say no in other phases if you can't say no to that, you know? And so knowing in my core that you will say no to me in the big stuff and also the little stuff builds trust and also shifts the energy from like I don't know if imagery that's coming up is like bellboy, you know, it's like shifts the imagery from like bell boy to like my partner who is on his own mission, in his own energy, and and I'm his beloved. And also when it's not a no for him, then of course it's a yes to me. Yeah, you know, and I'm curious if that rings true also in the flip, because it's like I'm having the experience over here of like I want a man, and that's like a man can say no for sure. But I'm curious what your perspective is on, like, you know, me not being there for you at your back and call. Well, I just want to say that the ability to say no is so important for a couple reasons that are coming up. The first is that the inability to say no makes polarity disappear. There's like that that bellboy image that you're saying. Oh, he's gonna say yes every time. You know, it kills polarity. Um, and the second reason why the inability to say no is dangerous is that it creates expectation and entitlement on the receiving end. Right? If I say yes every single time, you become entitled to whatever it is that I'm granting you, and you lose gratitude. And as you were sharing about cooking every meal for me uh during your fast, it's like that was dope. And when you stopped cooking as much for me, there was no part of me that was like, oh, like can you there's no entitlement, there's no expectation at all. The shift within me for how I feel towards you between you cooking every meal for me and not cooking every meal for me is minuscule if if existent at all. And I think um, yeah, I appreciate the question of what does it look like on the other side of me receiving your no? And I think that for me, it's really important that you say no because if you don't, how do I know that it's a true gift? How do I know that it's special in whatever you're being generous with and not just a foregone conclusion, right? If there's no conscious choice on your end to say yes or to give to gift, then there's really no special energy behind it. It's just a default pattern that happens because that's what you do. Yeah. The it's making me think of when I first started to understand boundaries, you know, and I first started to really be around friends that would cancel plans because they were honoring their energy. You know, I got to this phase in my journey where I would tell them when they would cancel a plan, like, thank you. Like this helps me know that when you do want when you are hanging out with me, that it's a full yes. So like cancel plans on me whenever you want. Now I've gotten through that phase where I'm like, okay, and also don't make the plans if you're not going to be able to follow through on them. But there are phases of understanding this work where, like, that was foundation for me understanding how important your no is, and it feels similar of like, I want you to gift me this gift of time or you know, compliment or an act of service because it's a gift, which means that it's freely given and you're excited to give it, not because it's assumed. Yeah. This conversation has really been like watch us work on our relationship in real time. So to the listeners, I hope that you've been able to follow it. And also, like, this is what working on relationship at a high level looks like. And and most of this stuff we've we've touched on already. So, like, there's very little like emotional challenge in this conversation because we've we've faced a lot of that already. But um, yeah, I I hope this is helpful. I think it will be for some people. And um, is there anything else you want to share before we give homework? I just wanted to say, you know, we're using our specific example of parts that are present right now of seeking deeper levels of independence and sovereignty and the other person being activated in abandoned and codependency, but there are many different parts and mirrored parts that could be activated. And so it really is about like a personal practice and you being curious about your own things and and working on having the ability to work on parts work in your own accord without external support is like quite an advanced thing. So as you're listening, I would say if you think you understand parts work or have done inner child work before, it's worth circling back to it because you know, we're blessed that we both do this work. So like when I hit a sticky point, I automatically have an external mirror for support, you know, not that you're my coach or I'm your coach, but we do have the blessing of helping each other through it. And I we you have an active coach right now, and I also have like resources where sometimes I have an active coach or sometimes I just have someone where like if I get stuck, I can pull someone in. And I can't tell you the number of people that I have worked with, probably all of them that have said yes, I've done inner child work before, and then they've come and done parts work with me, and it's like, no, you haven't. Oh, I didn't understand what this work was really all about. Yeah. So honestly, that's the last piece of just like acknowledging that if you've never done this work before, it's okay if this podcast feels overwhelming and also hopefully it's piqued your interest. And if you think you've done it before, I would invite you to go in even deeper, especially if you don't have the friendships or the family relationships or the partnerships that you desire because parts work really is a key. Yeah. And in light of that, our freebie is is reclamation the title of the freebie. Reclamation is the title of the course and the freebie. And the freebie. Okay. So the course is like amazing. I mean, I've been doing this stuff consistently for two decades. And in the process of creating and walking ourselves through this course, I'm having incredible shifts. So anyone on any phase of the journey could stand to benefit, I would say. The the honesty and the transparency of this conversation has been made possible by the work that we've done within just the first three weeks of reclamation. And it's a 12-week journey. This wasn't supposed to be like a reclamation like promo pod, but we'll do that later. It low-key was because it's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. That's where we were led. Yeah. So that's my homework is sign up for reclamation, but you can give something else if you want. Homework. Yeah. So to learn a little bit more and dive deeper. And reclamation is about so much more than just these parts. This is just what we've been doing within a couple weeks, and you'll learn so much more in it. And actually, the freebie shows you a different aspect of reclamation, which is reclaiming your life force and the impact of the weapons of mass distraction that are uh taking a toll on our focus. And that, you know, actually, most of us, our focus isn't getting better. You know, it's getting worse. Nothing is staying the same. And if you're not giving attention to something intentionally, uh it is it is draining you. So grab the freebie. I think the video is like 11 minutes, and then there's a meditation for you to evaluate honestly your own ability to concentrate your life force, and so much more in reclamation for you. You can learn more um at that link in the show notes. Uh, we love you. We love you. See you soon.