#36: Integrity, Intuition, Wilderness & the Path Back to Wholeness | Chris Sawey

What does it actually cost a man to live out of integrity?

According to Chris Sawey, the cost is not just external consequence. The deeper cost is intuition.

In this episode, we sit down with Chris Sawey, an off-grid architect, builder, poet, educator, wilderness guide, and founder of Men’s Alaska Project. Chris shares the story of the spiritual call that led him from burnout in Austin to a fully off-grid life in Alaska, where he now stewards a private island and guides men through wilderness-based experiences of adventure, brotherhood, play, and initiation.

What begins as a conversation about listening to the call of Spirit becomes a deeper exploration of integrity, intuition, masculine initiation, and the wilderness as a place of testing, renewal, and remembrance.

We talk about the difference between control and surrender, why interruptions may actually be redirections, how ego creates separation through anger and superiority, and why coming back into integrity is not about shame, but about returning to wholeness.

Chris also shares the heart behind Men’s Alaska Project and Man Camp: helping men remember that freedom is not something they need to achieve, earn, or chase.

Freedom is something they already are.

In this episode, we explore:

• Why being out of integrity dulls your intuition
• How to hear the call of Spirit through the body
• The masculine challenge of being interrupted
• Why wilderness is one of the purest teachers
• How play helps men remember who they are
• The difference between being a coach and being a guide
• Why shame keeps men from returning to wholeness
• How brotherhood helps men come back into integrity
• Why freedom and power are not things you have, but things you are

This conversation is for the man who feels the call toward a life of deeper truth, greater trust, and more embodied freedom.

https://mensalaskaproject.org/

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00:00 Introduction to Chris Sawey and His Journey
02:36 Hearing the Call: Chris's Transformation
13:45 Challenges and Lessons in Building Off-Grid
22:45 Navigating Resistance and Finding Integrity
30:33 Redirections vs. Side Quests: Embracing the Journey
34:57 Integrity and Intuition
45:32 The Wilderness Experience
49:20 Playground of Growth
52:29 Curiosity and Freedom
56:24 The Power of Stillness

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

The truth doesn't hurt. The lies do. Truth feels good. Truth is awesome. Truth is like, oh my God, I'm back. Thank God. And when you're there and you're like, I'm not bad. I didn't fuck up. I'm not despicable. I'm not irresponsible. I'm not whatever label that I've put on myself or have adopted from other people telling me. I get to be, I guess, I get to be human.

SPEAKER_04 0:26

Welcome to the Well Worship Man podcast, where men come to build unshakable presence, become the rock in their relationships, and build a legacy that lasts beyond their years. Here we explore the path to mature masculinity through humble power, daily devotion, and unwavering integrity.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

Thanks, baby. Today we have a guest on the show. Chris Soy is an off-grid architect, builder, poet, educator, and wilderness guide splitting his time between Austin and Alaska. He is the founder of Men's Alaska Project, a nonprofit dedicated to helping dad-deprived men reconnect with purpose, resilience, and the natural world. Drawing from a background in wilderness therapy, outdoor education, construction, and men's work, Chris creates immersive experiences that blend adventure, practical skills, personal growth, and rites of passage for the modern man. When he's not guiding wilderness trips, Chris lives off-grid writing poetry in Alaska, where he has spent the last several years developing his fully off-grid private island, a wilderness sanctuary designed to help people slow down, reconnect, and remember what matters most. Welcome, Chris.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me, guys.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

So excited. Yeah, us too. So we're just chatting a little bit before diving in, and you shared that you'd gone into town this morning, but prior to that, you hadn't seen another human for a week and a half. So tell us what your current setting is like and and what you're up to.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Yeah. Well, uh, in this very, very moment, I'm looking out my window. I got the white mountains. I live on a beautiful river. The weather is gorgeous. I'm kind of wishing I would have brought the camera and the computer outside. Uh this is the most, this is the most I'm going to be spinning inside, I think, today. So uh no, I I'm super grateful for this beautiful, magical place um I get to be. And yeah, just feeling really in that frequency of gratitude today. So that's where I'm at.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Yeah. Beautiful. Um, those of us that are are lucky enough to hear a call, uh, once we start on that path, we know there's it seems often like there's there's not another choice when it's an authentic call. And your call has led you to live off-grid, away from humans a lot of the time, reconnected to nature.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

So talk to us about hearing that initial call and what that experience was like for you. It's been almost what, five years since I stood out.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

I sat on the the shore of that river and heard it. Um little context to where I was at the time. I was I was living in Austin. I had a residential remodeling company before that. I I was doing camper innovations. Before that, I was um had a little show on HGTV and I was honestly like burnt out. Um I was it was COVID. So night, it was like 2020. The world was confused and afraid and trying to project all of their fears onto me, and I didn't know what to do with that. Uh and I I think Spirit knew that I needed something. Um it knew I needed rest in a new way. It knew I needed adventure. And I found myself in Alaska on a bit of a whim. Uh my brother, so I grew up in foster care, and a brother that I had grew up with was texting me. And we were kind of chatting. It happened to be the two-year anniversary of our brother Caleb's suicide. And he was, we were just kind of checking in, and I was like, what are you up to? You know, he had moved out to Alaska and was looking at land. Now, this is a big deal for him because he's always been a bit of a rebel. So the fact that he was even considering buying land and like going to the bank was I was like, wait, what? What? What's happening? And uh we got to chatting and he was sending me some pictures. And what was so interesting about what he was sharing is I had had a what I call like a vision about two weeks prior of this little cabin in the middle of the woods. Now I thought when I had it, it's kind of a daydream. I thought when I had it, I was like, oh, that's cool. That sounds nice later in life, when I retire, you know, I'll have something like that. And it came, it was one of those things that kind of kept revisiting in my consciousness. And I kept just like, one day, one day. And look, to make a long story short, I found myself on a last minute plane. And I convinced myself that I didn't have time, right? I didn't have time to go to Alaska. I was in the middle of a project and I got work to do and money to make and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think Spirit just had different plans. And I, you know, I went to go look at flights, and I was like, there's no way I'm gonna spend, you know, $1,000 on a three-day flight to Alaska. Nope. And that night I could not sleep. Uh, I usually go to bed around 10. It was like 11, then 12, then one, then two. That's three o'clock in the morning, and I finally just go, fine, I'll do it. And so I booked it, went right to sleep, found myself in Alaska. How is it how it is? And um, yeah, me and me and my brother were just kind of searching uh and looking at land, and I thought I was there for him. And it turns out that we kind of landed on this piece of property, and my I've the second I stepped foot on the land, my whole body lit up. Now, it had been probably several years since I had felt that familiarity when I felt that uh that vibration in my body where it's like I got excited for no reason whatsoever, and my my like I can feel it in my forearms and in my fingertips, and it's kind of going up to my head. And I always know that when that happens to pay attention. So for the next several days, um me and Chad, which is his name, we we kind of walked around and explored, and we found ourselves just kind of sitting, chatting, camp chairs, made a little fire, and we were discussing Caleb and we were discussing life and living in children's homes, and and a lot of our brothers had either been shot and killed in gangs, in prison. I mean, it's it's just a crazy, crazy story of all these uh brothers that I've lived with that just kind of didn't quite make it. And we kind of sat there and was like, why us? I think it was him that asked the question, like, why why us? Why why are we the ones that quote unquote made it? Um and the answer to that question was like, I think we're supposed to do something with it, Chad. And I kind of went to we were both went to bed that night, kind of permeating on that idea. I woke up the next morning, he was still asleep, and I kinda got out of my accommodations and went down to the river, and I just sat and I'm I'm praying as I do, and I'm asking questions like, what am I supposed to do? What is this all for? Like, I I can't imagine myself being in the remodeling industry much longer. I'm kind of burnt out. What's next? And I remember seeing a beaver. The water was glass, right? The trees were reflecting against the early morning light. There was a fog kind of rolling in, the sun was kind of peeping up in between the trees. It was just like really pristine, cold environment. And this little beaver had kind of just made it its way and created a little a little channel, and I just watched, sat there in silence, and as he came across over, he did a couple of circles. He was kind of, you know, scoping me out a little bit, and we were making eye contact the whole time. And I'm thinking to myself, what are you doing? And he came up, uh, did a couple more circles, came up right next to me. And I swear, without breaking eye contact, he just started making me this little I say it's he was making me, but he was making uh like a little what I call a mud pie. It was like all of the extra pollen and grass and mud, and he kind of just with his little bitty T-Rex hands was sitting there, and he just made me this little mound. And I kind of looked at it, looked at him, and I was like, what is what is that? And he jumps back into the water and he slams his tail onto the water, makes this big splash. And up until that moment, that water was completely still. But uh when he slapped his tail, that ripple just traveled. And I watched probably for what felt like forever, this ripple just kind of go downstream. And I'm in my head, I'm asking, like, beaver, what it what is a beaver? What am I beavers are builders? Okay, what am I supposed to build? And boom, spirit just kind of came over my body, and I felt it wasn't an audible voice, it wasn't uh, you know, coming from the clouds, it was just an internal voice that said, What you are going to build here, referring to the ripple, is going to do the same.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

And in that moment, I was like, I'm in. I don't know what we're doing, but I'm in.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

And I still remember it because it was at the same time scary and exciting and scary because I really just did not know what on earth I was supposed to be doing. But I did know that this land that I was on was going to be not owned. I wasn't going to own it, but I was going to steward it. And uh I ended up getting a couple more downloads while I was there and got back on the plane and was in this like trying to like problem-solving business mind mode. I was like, okay, what's the business plan here? What are we gonna do? How do I how do I monetize this and do what's something my whole brain, you know, went a whole different direction. And uh to make a long story short, there's several other stories in between, but I I often tell people that this has been one of my greatest adventures, where I don't actually get to see. It's like I've been given all of these puzzle pieces, but I don't get to see the box. And so the last five years of my life have been just collecting the puzzle pieces and trying to figure out where they fit and what does this have to do with this? And it has been for someone who works in as an architect and and sees everything visually and likes to map everything out and and using 3D design software and CAD software to like spec out every detail before we go into build, this was a completely different way of doing things. And to trust I I call it the the surrender experience, uh, where I am just at the whims of what spirit's asking me to do, but what is what has transpired and what has unfolded in the last five years is truly uh a trustful. It's been I've been led to some of the craziest places. I am constantly in awe of what can happen without my control, without me needing to plan it, without needing to uh organize it. And it's just been it really has been one of the greatest adventures I think I've ever been on. And uh now I know it's possible. It seems like I feel like the specialist human in the most special human in the world, but at the same time, like I'm not special. It's this weird paradox, I think the whole game likes to show us. And so yeah, I get to that's the story uh in a nutshell of of kind of what I'm doing here.

SPEAKER_04 13:45

Yeah, thank you for sharing. It's such a beautiful demonstration of that call. And what really struck me when you were talking is your explanation of what it felt like in your body. You know, there is a lot of talk often about a woman's intuition, but it's really all humans have this like sixth sense to listen and to hear and to be guided by spirit. And, you know, until you have an experience or focus your intention on hearing what that feels like, it's sort of hard to describe. But you describing it like as a physical sensation, I think is really supportive. It probably feels a little different in everyone's body, but there is definitely like a clear physical, like weighted sensation that also feels light, where it's just like, okay, this is the truth now. And it is like a choice, not a choice, like we say, where you know, you could have totally ignored it and it would have probably just circled back on repeat, like flying to Alaska did. Um, but the saying yes is such a powerful process. And my question for you now is okay, once you got that yes, then there are challenges during this game. You know, you're describing it um now as like this this art of curiosity, which is really great. Like the more people can be curious about I always say, like, what's spirit gonna bring me today? Like, okay, I guess spirit just wants me to feel joyful and silly today, or maybe I need to feel like a little bit lower energy because of what's gonna transpire. But that curiosity is key. And yet, when there's challenges, sometimes we lose our anchor into that curiosity. So I'm wondering, you know, what it's been like to stay anchored into this vision, and maybe if there are any specific challenges that felt like, you know, the hardest points to actually stay centered, or what are the tools that you use?

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Yeah, that's so well said. Um, it kind of sounds like you're on your own mission and your own adventure. Like, give me something about this. We're picking up some puzzle pieces. Um you know, I think the biggest thing for me is I often say like the pain is uh like you can't escape it, but suffering is absolutely optional. And I think the willingness to be interrupted has been my greatest lesson. Um my willingness to be interrupted uh because I think I'm doing something, and then Spirit's like, pivot. And I suffered for the first couple years of that. Uh I get so fixated, and I don't know if this is a man thing or just a me thing, but I like having my targets. I like having my set a goal and hit it. And I think in this greatest the greatest lesson I've learned in all of this is like to stay faithful but unattached. And in terms of challenges, I mean I don't know for at least for me, building a cabin in the on an island in the middle of a river, having to transport, being an hour and a half away from town, getting supplies, having to put it on a boat, transporting it over, having to build solo, uh putting on roofing, using my foot on the roof while I'm upside down and putting screws in my mouth. I mean, I can the thousands of them um challenges. But I at the same time, I guess I rest in the knowing that life isn't happening to me, it's happening for me. And as cliche as that is, when I anchor to that idea, suffering really, I think is a choice. And I I'm I'm really getting good. I'm not I've got to be careful here. I don't want to be humble. I like to think, I like to think that I'm getting really good at recognizing it, um, and shifting quickly. Um and and staying anchored to that idea because it's very easy to be a victim of circumstance, right? Um, to be so, so affected by you know what I think is supposed to happen, right? There is what is, and then there's my resistance to what is. And so if I can get on the right side of what is, I find that things are a little bit smoother. Um and that's hard because your boy likes having his preferences.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

I think I like my preferences.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

I just like uh things being a certain way. Um but yeah, 93 days it took me to build this this cabin that first summer, and and I've been back. And I think the challenges are new every time. But that's the fun. And I think that's the idea is is uh how fun can I make this? How fun can this be? It's really a mindset thing.

SPEAKER_04 19:14

Um when you are noticing that attachment or the resistance or like spirits directing you in another way, I like the the visual of like get good at being interrupted. Both of us are like, oh, that's that's code, you know. Um, but different people have different ways that they respond. You know, someone might go into victimhood or might go into defensiveness, or like, you know, I'm curious what how do you notice you have become the person who's resisting?

SPEAKER_00 19:48

Anger. Oh yeah, frustration. Um, I I'm gonna just be vulnerable with you. I have an ego. Um shocking. Shocking. Uh I have an ego that loves to convince me that everybody else is idiots. Um and I I have learned it to be a secret little sneaky way that my ego likes to find uh fuel to kind of feed the fire of resistance. If I can create, and I I've I've caught this, my ego will create that separation. If I can convince, if it can convince me that everybody else is idiots, therefore I am superior. Therefore I am whatever. That in itself, creating that initial hierarchy is actually what creates the suffering, in my opinion. Because that's the moment that separation is created. That's the moment where distance is then created, and now there's a gap. Uh, and when there's a gap, there is opportunity for that resistance where that proverbial uh maybe window lets in that draft.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

And so what I notice in terms of my when I'm in that resistance is I'll get I'll start to get upset, I'll start to get angry, I'll start to get frustrated or annoyed. You know, there's different scales, right? Um it starts out as like a pet peeve and then annoyance and then frustration and then anger and then rage. There's a whole thing. Uh and the sooner I can catch it, um, the better. Yeah, but that that's easier said than done, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:42

Yeah. Yeah, I really resonate with you a lot and and also the willingness to be interrupted. I like to run straight and fast too. And if somebody interrupts me to say, Hey, look at this little slug crawling on the ground, I'm I'm irritated because I've got my target. Right. Like, what are you stopping me for? This is silly. And then, you know, there's like this process of like, I am my irritation or I am my anger. And then there's like, okay, I'm actually aware of my anger and I'm aware that it's pretty silly that that I would just run by this snail. That's like a miracle of nature, right? And then I can start to understand my my uh my error. But I'm curious for you, is it you mentioned catching it as soon as possible is is the best thing. Um, but when you realize that there is something amiss, that you are separating yourself, how do you bring yourself back into integrity?

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Well, integrity. Well, you just thought you just casually throw that word on the table. Uh okay. Great. Um first off, I want to clear up the misconception that I think that word has. So I used to think that integrity was I it was taught to me as doing the right thing when no one was looking. Right. That was how it was taught. And I've struggled with that definition because I used to think being out of integrity and I'm gonna do my best to come back to your question, but I just that worked. Okay. Um I used to think that being out of integrity meant doing the wrong thing when nobody was looking. And that I think meant, I've translated that in my mind that almost like it's there's an a deception, right, to that. And I for me that's not really what integrity is. Integrity is defined integrus coming back into wholeness. And so that's how I interpret your question is how how do I how am I come back into wholeness in that moment?

SPEAKER_01 23:55

And the greatest tactic and the hardest anchor for me is remembering that I am not separate.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

I'm not separate from any of it, and and it it's impossible for me to to be. And if I can anchor to that, and I I don't just say like I don't just say that as like an affirmation, if I can find it in the body and remember that I am just God experiencing itself and that this is just here to often reveal my inner fragility, right? To show me where I'm at of integrity. A lot of the times that's what it is. It's just to reveal where there is a crack in the foundation, or maybe I'm my ego's doing that thing where I need to be humbled a little bit. And, you know, if I claim that I am a bridge that can hold 2,000 pounds, it's almost like spirit goes, Oh yeah? How about this? Give me a little, you know, give me a little wiggle just so that I can see maybe where I'm not exactly as strong as I think I am, or maybe um as integrous as I say I am. And it's if I can get there, um, and it feels good. Let me let me be very clear. It feels very good sometimes to complain and uh play the victim. I try not to give myself more than two minutes, you know, like just let them go, just complain, but come right back, you know. Because I've I've also learned that if I don't do that, uh I don't express, it gets it gets lodged in the body a little bit, comes out sideways somewhere else, um, and it can go, it can go unchecked. So that's I guess that's the best way I know how to answer that question. And and by no means am I perfect at this.

SPEAKER_03 26:01

It's just something that yeah, I think uh a complaint frenzy is is a great practice. Sometimes I'll hit one in the car. It's just like two minutes of my laundry list of everything that's going wrong, and then I feel so much better afterwards, and those things feel like they're less wrong. You know, some of them actually don't even matter at all. So I think uh, you know, there's kind of this an opposing perspective, like a stoic perspective of don't complain at all. And it's like, but like you said, if if we don't acknowledge what's what's real, it gets lodged. And actually the process of uh of acknowledging what's real can be a fairly short and easy one without repercussions. There's actually some some good stuff on the other side. 100%.

SPEAKER_04 26:48

Um we're in the process of like making kind of an ecosystem for people to learn various things. And while I was making some of the stuff for the the course that we're offering this summer, this teaching came through of like, you know, when a baby is inside the mother, she the baby is not separate. Like the mother will literally take nourishment from its own bones, from her own bones to nourish the baby. And the the parallel of that of mother nature, like we're not separate, we're part of like the mother always provides. And at a similar time, I was reading um a version of the Bhagavad Gita, and it's talking about, you know, everything is Krishna, everything is God. And so this separation thing that all of our egos like to do, where like someone's inconveniencing us, or like, I thought my day was gonna go this way, and now I have like six hours of a problem to solve, you know? And yet it's like, but what if this is actually getting me back into my center? Like I didn't even know that I wasn't supposed to be doing that thing that day, but there was an interruption that was actually a redirection. Um and yeah, actually feeling it in your body is is a completely different thing. This goes, this goes across the board for all emotions, but like affirmations are good. And unless you're like really feeling the truth of it in your body, the truth that we are just like a part of the energy moving through earth and not the only thing or the center or separate from it. Um, it really changes things. And I imagine if you as you've spent time on the land out there that has sunk into your body a bit more deeply.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Yeah. Yeah. No, I thank you for that beautiful uh teaching around the mother. I did not know that with the bombs. That's very cool. Yeah. I it it's a frequency, right? Like it's a choice. Like I the idea like I choose anger as a response. The frequency is there. It's just about finding the the right, you know, turning the knobs to get there. Sometimes it's really hard. Especially if you like me are we like to sulk a little bit and you're a victim of it. Um but you know who was interrupted? Just real quick, you know who was interrupted, I find, um was Jesus. I read a lot of times, and I it's been a long time since I've um I grew up in the church, but so I grew up on a lot of these stories, and it's been kind of fun to to revisit in a new lens and a new context. But a lot of times I see uh little parables and stories. It often says that on his way to wherever he was on his way to. And you're like, oh, you get it, you totally know what I'm talking about, Jay. I get it, you know. Um, and I think that that's I think that that's funny. And I the greatest healing, uh some of the greatest healing stories was because Jesus was interrupted. And it's a subtle thing I don't think we catch all the times, but once I I caught that, I'm like, okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:01

Wow, all right. I can go to that. It's really landing for me. Yeah, it's like that people weren't making appointments with Jesus. He wasn't like making house, he wasn't like planning to make house calls, you know, he was just like living in the flow. Like, what what is the father asking of me today? Right. And then when those interruptions came, he's not like, no, no, no, I was already on my way to like do this, I can't do that. That becomes the thing now. That's what's been presented in life. There must be something there, an opportunity to serve or learn or grow. Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:34

We didn't sign up for his iCal. Yeah.

unknown 30:36

No.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Get on the app.

SPEAKER_03 30:40

Get on the wait list for Jesus.

SPEAKER_04 30:44

Um, on that note, you know, one of the things that I am often thinking about is like, okay, but how do we tell the difference between a redirection and like a side quest that we're choosing? You know, because ultimately there is like one singular optimal way that we could be going. And there's one source. And of course, there's a lot of variability in the way that we move through our days, you know, there's this balance between like integrity and compassion. Um, but I think a lot of times people make excuses for either never following the flow because they're so focused, or making excuses around their ego that, like, well, you know, I'm just gonna go do, I just feel like I want to go do this thing now. I just feel like I want to go do this thing now. And it's actually because they're hitting some resistance to whatever is being asked of them. Um, so what's the difference between like, I call it a side quest, like a side quest and actually a redirection when you're on this path of a vision?

SPEAKER_00 31:55

I'm gonna be honest with you, I don't know how to answer that question. Oh, I that is so real. That is so real. Um I heard how to identify what is a side quest. You know, I'm gonna try this. I'm actually gonna give this a go. I have a I have a beautiful poem uh that a squirrel taught me while I was out here on the land. And um I can't do the whole poem for you, but the premise of this is this little squirrel, uh squirrels are responsible for uh hiding or losing their nuts is pretty much the premise of this, right? And statistically they say that more squirrels have planted more trees than humans, right? And what I love about this idea is that the God source universe planned for this, right? Uh it it and it knew that this little squirrel was going to do this, and it's forgetfulness and it's uh just squirreliness, you know? And what I learned, um, and I think it's on my Instagram, it's been a long time since I wrote it. But what I learned in this is that you can't fuck it up. You really can't. And side quest, main quest, just like our GPS, when we make a wrong turn, it's gonna recalculate a new route. And it's not so much about where we're going, as cliche as it is, it's really not so much about where we're going, it's about who we become along the way. And I don't think that the universe cares about our title. I don't think it cares about the number of followers that we have, right? I can't I think it cares about how we lead. I think it cares about who we become and our character. And I think those side quests that we sometimes find ourselves in, they're it's it's yeah, it's character. Um at least at least that's the way I choose to view it. And I'm I really am convinced, and it's helped me a lot because when I'm in those big decisions of like, should I do this, should I not? I try very, very hard to remember that no matter what I choose, like the universe is always saying yes. So like if I go this way, I'm good. If I go this way, still good. Uh but but yeah, the the you know, I that's what I'll say. That's how I'm gonna answer that question.

SPEAKER_03 34:58

Yeah. I think that level of faith and trust requires integrity. You know, what you shared about uh whichever way I go, I'm good, right? There's a similar similar saying, you know, you can't miss what's meant for you. And this might get us a little deeper. There are people that make really poor decisions and end up in lives that are not how they had mapped out or how anybody would choose. You know, there are people that that die in prison, there are people that die uh with no relationship to their kids, and you know, it's like the question that none of us can answer is like, is that the life that was that was meant for them? And so what's the role of, you know, your level of of self-awareness in your belief that you can't fuck it up? And does that apply to everybody?

SPEAKER_00 36:03

I love that you brought it back to integrity. Um and I I'm thinking about what you were saying, Jessica, at the beginning around intuition. Um I can't say for everybody, and I don't want to be that guy, but what I'll say for me is the greatest cost of being out of integrity, I believe, is intuition. I think that's the greatest cost. It's not the consequence of being out of integrity, it's what we lose access to when we're out of integrity. And so that is my ultimate motivation because uh what's happening internally, and I maybe you guys know this, but like that split is created. And as long as that split is there, we're we're not, it's not necessarily that we're losing um the ability to intuit, it's just that we lose our tool, our tool becomes not as sharp. And so that's that's when things start to become difficult to discern. Um, and that's the greatest gift of being back, you know, being into wholeness. You know, I often compare it to uh, you know, when I do man camps out here, we go ATV riding, and I love taking the guys out on ATVs and ripping and running on the tundra. And we talk about mind, body, heart, and spirit. A lot of men today are two-wheel drive men. And it's really about coming back to become four-wheel drive men. And what happens is when we're out of alignment, we can end up in a ditch, right? Or if we're out in the vast tundra, we can end up going in circles. And so the the idea is coming back into alignment, back into integrity. Come back to the idea that like, we just need a maintenance check. Like, being out of integrity ain't bad. We just got to get an oil change, you know? Uh and and I think there's a lot of shame around that. So, of like, oh man, I was out of integrity. I held on to that forever. I'm out of integrity. Like, this is oh, I'm the worst. No, you you you hit a bump, you you threw it out at a whack, and you just go under the hood and figure it out, you know, change it up. Um and so anyway, the the point I'm I'm making is that the greatest thing I think that we can do is find out where that is and what we how we define, because I think it's going to be different for everybody. Um, but but the greatest, the greatest cost is being able to listen and to hear.

SPEAKER_03 38:40

Yeah. Yeah. The the cost of being out of integrity is intuition. That's what you said. And for years in my life, you know, I was meditating, I was in my yoga practice, I was reading the books, da-da-da-da-da. And I just I didn't know why I wasn't receiving any guidance. I just uh didn't know my life purpose, my path, you know. But there was this massive area of my life where I was out of integrity and I was ignoring it. Um and when I brought that into integrity, the hardest decision I had to make was the decision to bring that part of my life into integrity. And I've talked about my broken engagement before on this podcast, but once I did that, oh my gosh. It was hard, but God started talking. I started seeing things that I could ignore and go.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 39:26

But I'd never heard it, you know, reduced to such a simple teaching is that the cost of being out of integrity is intuition. So I love that.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:36

Yeah. Such a good way to say it. And also, you know, there is when people start this work, and I feel like especially for some of the men that start this work, there is this story that they can't hear. Like, oh, like I don't, I don't just don't hear things like that. Or even for a lot of the women that do this work, there for both ends, there's a lot of confusion. And what we're talking about with, you know, being in wholeness, it's like, well, if I'm ignoring a part of myself, then there's combating stories. That's why I'm confused. But the truth is is like singular in my body, you know, like what is what is best for me, what the voice of spirit is saying to me is is one thing. And I just can't, to your point, really hear it because I need a maintenance check, you know? And it shame is such a big issue in accepting these places because when I feel so much shame about like, oh, I'm out of integrity, like I did this horrible thing and like blah, blah, blah. Then it prevents actually the union of that. You know, we need to feel the shame to be able to come back into wholeness. If I suppress my shame, now that's another piece of me that's telling a different story. Um, but like being able to feel it and also have this narrative of like, it's not, it's not really that big of a deal. Like it is a really big deal to feel my emotions and to feel the impact of the hurt that I cause. And also, like once I recognize it, then I can adjust it and get the maintenance check and onward, onward we go. There was a time when we were at a festival where the day that we had was just like so chaotic. And over and over, like every 10 to 20 minutes, I'm like, oh, this happened because I did this thing. This happened because I, oh my gosh, I should have like worn this outfit instead of that, like just ridiculous unwinding all of the ways that I caused these problems. And finally Isaac looked at me and he was like, Hey, it's done. Like, like we recognized that we weren't feeling like totally in connection. And now all we have to do is feel in connection again. And that's it. You know, and it's a really beautiful demonstration of the way that different energies work. But it also is true, you know, like there's ways that everyone steps a little bit out of alignment with themselves every day, if only they would notice the subtlety of it, you know? And that is the whole thing that we're doing in life is noticing more and more subtlety.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

Totally. Yeah, well said. Well said. I I would love, I would love just to, yeah, bring, bring, take away the stigma that is like out of integrity. Like it's been used to weaponize. You're out of integrity. It's used with this like this sword. And man, I have I I was literally, I was just changing the oil on the ATV. And I used to think, here's a fun little metaphor. I used to think that changing the like having black oil was bad. Like, oh no, I've let my oil run black. The black oil proves that it worked. The black oil is actually shows that it did its job. Because it's the thing, and if we're not careful, the very thing that's designed to protect the engine can be the thing that destroys the engine if we're not careful, because the machine will still run on black oil. But uh the the main interest check is kind of the oil change, is the necessary component. And so instead of looking at even when we like go out of alignment, like that happens. That is proof and evidence that we've been on the road. We've been doing our work. Uh and so it's inevitable. And so, like, if I could just instill one thing, is like being out of integrity is inevitable, but the work is coming back. The work is coming back into integrity to feel the truth because the truth doesn't hurt, the lies do. Truth feels good. Truth is awesome. Truth is like, oh my God, I'm back. Thank God. And when you're there and you're like, I'm not bad, I didn't fuck up, I'm not despicable, I'm not irresponsible, I'm not whatever labeled. That I've put on myself or have adopted from other people telling me, I get to be, I guess, I get to be human. I think Peter Cron has the quote: like, the hardest part about being human is being human. Um and the problem with being human is we're trying so hard not to be.

SPEAKER_03 44:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:17

Right? It's like come out.

SPEAKER_03 44:21

And part of being human is is straying and returning. You coming out of integrity and returning. And I think a really important element of that that we haven't talked about is community, is brotherhood, is having when when I step out of integrity, having people around me that can remind me who I am, and that can also remind me that I am loved and lovable. You know? And from that place it's like, oh, okay. I'm actually like ready to get back into integrity. I don't have to like wallow over here. And so um I think that's a really important piece of it is having people around you who who operate in this way as well. Yeah, great community. Yeah. Um, I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about some of the adventurous and fun, but also deep work that that you're doing in in Alaska with men. And you you mentioned um man camp. And so, you know, there's this, you had this vision of the cabin, you saw this beaver slap its tail and saw the ripple impact. And at that time it was just you. And now it's become really a path of service and bringing other men up into the wilderness to experience some of the gifts that that wilderness has shared with you and maybe ones that that it hasn't. Maybe they get their own. So talk to us about uh Men's Alaska Project and Man Camp.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Yeah. Well, I'll say this first. Uh, you know, it's not just it's so cool in this adventure that I'm on because I've tried labeling it so many times, right? Like, oh, it's gonna be a summer camp. It's gonna be a healing center, it's gonna be a retreat center. And I keep trying to put it in a box, you know. I can't keep trying to like name it, brand it. Uh we ended up going with with Men's Alaska Project or the acronym MAP, uh, because I think a map, here's why, because a map will never tell you where to go. Uh, it will, however, tell you how to walk the terrain. And I don't resonate with with being a coach or any of that. I, if anything, I call myself a guide. And that's just because I take people to places they would otherwise maybe not go themselves. And I try to create as pure of an experience as possible, right? When I'm I'm when we're hiking up a mountain, I'm not the guy up front. I'm trying to be the guy in the back so that you can have that experience as if you're you're following your own compass, you're following your own path. Because if I I've learned anything about being out here, is that the wilderness, at least for me, uh, is one of the purest frequencies that I found in like true wilderness, not national park wilderness, uh, although it's beautiful and great, but I'm talking like unadulterated, no Wi-Fi, no cell signal, no interruption other than whatever spirit has for you. Um because everything out here is is a greater, it's a greater teaching, a greater metaphor, a greater it's just it's pure, it's pure. And the wilderness is a place of testing, of challenge, of uh divine encounters, of renewal. You know, it's like it's my favorite place to be. And so what I get to do, I love that I get to do this, is I get to take people out here, touch it, taste it, experience it. Man camp is one of those things where I get guys to come out. Ten of us, uh, where we adventure uh in the wild and we kayak wild rivers and we climb mountains and we shoot each other with airsoft guns. That's fun. Uh we play Protect the Island and, you know, all the different games that we play. But at the end of the day, it's it's play, uh, helping men remember that we're just kids, taking life a little too seriously sometimes. And we're God's kids, and we get to um, yeah, we get to enjoy life. And when we're in that frequency of play, we start to remember a little bit more, like, oh yeah. Because it's not uh it's not something we don't have to go necessarily find something, it's more of a remembering, right? And one of the things we say is that everybody, every man has a question, and there's a reason why it's called a quest, because it's a quest yon. Um and we get to uncover what that quest is, and adventure is a great vehicle to do it. Play is a great vehicle to do it, and and I don't just do it with men, I do it with um young men stepping into manhood. I do it, we have co ed experiences out here, but it is just this island has just become like a essentially a playground. Uh a playground, a training ground on sacred ground, as we say. So there's a little synopsis. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:21

Yeah. So much of men's work, even that phrase, it's a work. It's gonna be hard. Uh we're gonna have to like go deep and excavate all the darkness that's inside of us. Yeah. Right. And that that certainly can can bear fruit. Uh, but you have like a totally different perspective, right? It's first it's a playground, right? It's also training ground and it's also sacred ground, but it's it's it's a playground. So so what is it about a playground that allows an opportunity for men to return to what's real for them?

SPEAKER_00 50:05

A little kid at the at the at its essence is already free. It's already free, especially if it's uh if the child is well protected and and feels safe. And, you know, a lot of men, at least what I see in the world, is there's a lot of men out there that you ask them what they want, and they may say the money, they may say this and that, and blah, blah, blah. And if you keep de-layering it, they'll say, freedom. I just want freedom. And what I like to say is, and I what I I think a lot of people find out here and they touch and taste in their bodies, Jessica, is that they already are free. Freedom isn't something that you get. Freedom is something that you are. Same with power. Freedom isn't something that you have, freedom is something that you or power isn't something that you have, power is something that you are. And thank you. Amen. Yeah. Uh and that's it. That's it. And we can talk about it all day long. We can sit around and I could give a talk and you we could podcast about it all day long. But when you're here and you're tasting it and you're touching it, you go. Oh. Oh, yeah. Duh. And because we're human, we forget. And it's so funny because the thing that is always available and has been always available is nature. Um, wilderness is a little bit more scarce these days. I mean, maybe not scarce, that's the wrong word, but a little harder to get to. Uh less convenient, dare I say. Um, but I think at the the reason it's so important is because I care uh I give people a map to their own driveway. I I help people realize that the thing that they're looking for is themselves. And we just get into the frequency of play and and we get into the essence of our little boys and little girls, and that's who remembers. And if I can do that, I've done my job. Everything else is just bonus.

SPEAKER_04 52:28

Um not everyone is ready to come to Alaska to play in the wilderness. So how do like people listening to this podcast are accessing some of that right now?

SPEAKER_00 52:44

Well, first off, uh, ready isn't a feeling, ready is a decision.

SPEAKER_04 52:48

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 52:53

No, I what was your question?

SPEAKER_04 53:01

How do people so so like coming to Alaska is like a peak experience, a retreat or a medicine journey is like a peak experience. So those are all really important. And then to our point of like humans just forget. So, what can people bring into like their daily life or their sort of quote unquote regular life that reminds them of this like childlike play that reminds them that they're already free?

SPEAKER_00 53:27

Yeah. Curiosity is the answer to that question. Um I I curiosity is, I think, one of the most underrated things in our world. Um they say, you know, curiosity killed the cat. I got a poem about this. It's like, no, curiosity didn't kill the cat, condemnation did. Um curiosity is what gave the cat its nine lives, I think. And I think that the it is our soul's it's like we often say that the soul knows the know why and the ego knows the know how. And the dance that is between the two. Um, but curiosity really is the key to it all. Um I think chasing curiosity and everybody's everybody's on a different journey and and their curiosity is going to take them different places. I think it's inevitable that people find their way to nature. I think it's inevitable that they find their way back to uh the stillness, the solitude, the silence. We live in a world where it's really distracting. There's a lot of messages right now, uh, a lot of things pulling us away intentionally to keep us from our power, to outsource it, to make us believe that it's outside of us. And it will continue to do that. Um and some of us need to indulge in it a lot more than others. Some of us need to get to the end of that track to feel like, oh, I got it. You know, some people need to get to the top of the ladder to realize that the ladder was against the wrong wall. Um people can get halfway up and be like, nah, I'm going back down. I just say we're gonna, the view from here sucks. Uh uh, I'm not gonna keep going. Um and so, you know, I think it can look different for everybody, but at the end of the day, if if we can get back to what makes us the most curious, makes us come alive, for me it's nature. For me, it's for me it's being out in the wild, for me it's uh finding ways to explore uh the planet and uh watching it you know have its effect on my character, I think is the I think the best part. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:46

Yeah, the prerequisite for curiosity is is humility. We have to be willing to admit that we don't know, to then become curious. If I already know everything, if I already think I know everything about everything, then there's no reason for me to be curious. And and also I hear along with curiosity is this element of the beginner's mind of being willing to be a beginner at something, to be clumsy and unfamiliar with something, and that that also like actually kids don't care about that at all. Kids don't care about feeling like a beginner at all. There is no ego around that. So it's like that's that's a return to that childlike state. Yeah, yeah. Great.

SPEAKER_04 56:34

So I sort of just asked you this in one way, but at the end of all of our podcasts, we ask two questions. Um, one is the end?

SPEAKER_01 56:43

I'm not ready for it to be over.

SPEAKER_04 56:45

What else would you like to share?

SPEAKER_01 56:47

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_04 56:49

So one of our intentions for this podcast is like, you know, free access to real change. So one of the things you just said is nature. Just like go in nature. It's actually simple. Um, but if there is one other kind of like thing that you would recommend people doing to create change, like tangible change through action, what might that be?

SPEAKER_00 57:15

Plug a flight to Alaska. Yeah, is this my plug? Is that what you're telling me?

SPEAKER_01 57:24

No.

SPEAKER_00 57:25

Man, okay.

SPEAKER_01 57:26

Change. I'm tempted to like play the Who said anything needs changing?

SPEAKER_00 57:39

I'm tempted to play that card. Um I think the greatest thing that one can do for oneself is if we're not if nature isn't the answer.

SPEAKER_01 57:56

Um It's underrated. But getting still, getting silent, getting in solitude.

SPEAKER_00 58:09

There's a reason I start with an S Ask deeper questions. That's it. I think that's it. Uh and just listen. I I I I'm I'm just convinced that we all have the compass and we all have the map, and and if we spend our lives trying to chase the next thing, we're just gonna keep missing it. We're gonna keep going around in circles. And I think that's the beautiful paradox of it all. Um I think that's the beautiful game of it all. And I know that's probably not the answer that somebody's looking for because they're probably looking for those give me three steps.

SPEAKER_01 58:55

That ain't it.

SPEAKER_00 58:57

Nah, dude. No.

SPEAKER_04 58:59

Um something that I'll add to that answer about sit more silence and stillness and curiosity is like stay a little longer than you want to. Like people will always have like, okay, I did it. Like that was the like the first impulse to get up is usually the first sign that you're about to hit something. So, so stay longer, ask one or two more questions, you know. Stay past that initial impulse because that's usually like a desire to avoid the the gift that's about to come.

SPEAKER_00 59:29

Yeah. That's great. That's actually really good. That's the best answer. I think I listen, whatever I said, ignore that. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's so true. That's so true. The amount of times, and this is a great thing, a little side piece on the nervous system. I think what I had to learn for me is that I would sit there, right? And I'd go into the okay, I'm gonna do my little right. And I would sit thinking that this was like the prerequisite to getting the download. And sometimes it would come, sometimes it wouldn't. But oftentimes when it did, my first instinct was to be like, got it, got it, say less. I know what to do. And then jump, get out of there, thinking like, and I I could just imagine if it was truly like a conversation with my higher self. The other version of me would be to be like, oh my God, I can't even handle it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:28

I can't even handle it. I just started.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:31

I like sitting down, and and there's more. And that's the beautiful thing. If you can find that frequency, to your point, Jessica, if you can find that frequency where you're connected and those answers are coming, stay in it. That's the sweet spot. You can write it down, you can act, you can do later. But if you find if you're in that frequency, oh baby, stay in it as best you can. And the nervous system may not be able to hold it because it's it's exciting. It's fun. It's it's when you feel like you got the answers to your questions, you can't help but move. Uh, but the practice is um, yeah, learning to hold. We teach that when we when we're shooting bow bow and arrows. You know, it's one thing to be able to draw it back and shoot and hit the target. It's another thing to sit and hold until that animal becomes broadside. Because seeing an animal is one thing, holding until it turns is something else entirely.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:37

And and um there's a lot I could say on that, but apparently we're out of time, so there's a lot there of being able to hold excitement, of holding heightened states of energy, of holding tension. It's like that's like one of the biggest skills that everybody needs to develop. But if we're talking masculine, feminine, it's a it's a masculine type of skill, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:02

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:03

Yeah. And I I love uh I love your analogy to the to the bow. I loved your analogy earlier with the linemen and the axles of the ATVs, and it's like I can feel these downloads coming through in the language of wilderness and that being what you get to share. And it's just like more, it's just like very clear to me that you are it was before we even had this conversation, but that your your feet are where they're meant to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:30

Yeah, thanks, guys. I appreciate that information. Feels good to know that somebody else knows.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:38

Yeah. Um and the last question that we ask is, you know, we're trying to give more men like you a spotlight. Um, so who's another one or two guys in your life uh that are really leading with integrity and being of service and and seeking to be in connection with that higher source?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:07

For you to interview. Potentially.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:11

Or for our audience to look to.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:14

I got it. My buddy Donovan Owens uh is the first and only name that comes to mind. Um he is a man on a very similar path uh where he gave up his he gave up his world uh to follow what spirit's calling him to do. And it's been a fun, it's just been a fun journey to watch him go through that. He's got a beautiful um brotherhood he's created called Life, I don't know, Brotherhood. I think he's still in the development phase of figuring out what exactly it is, but what I know to be true is that this man is dialed. He is clear. Um he calls it life is reps and repetition. He could the reps is an acronym. Uh repeated excellence produces success. Uh and then the man is on a quest of self-mastery and creating just a hell of a structure for other men uh to get really clear on who they're designed to be. And uh he's just an incredible man of incredible character. And uh I will I will put you guys in touch because yeah, he is, he's transformed just by being his friend. Uh he's elevated me as a as a man, as a human. And uh I just I can't speak highly enough of what he's he's creating in the world. So I will I'll connect you guys. Thank you. Thank you. And let me say this thank you for your gifts and thank you for creating space and yeah, taking time out of your busy lives to ask beautiful questions and you know, bring magic to the two of you. I see how y'all interact, I see the love that's in your eyes, and thank you for just giving your medicine in this way.