#40: Do You Like Who You Are With Them?

Most people evaluate a relationship by asking:

How much do I like this person?

But there may be an even more revealing question:

Who do I become in their presence?

In this episode, we explore how different relationships awaken, amplify or suppress different parts of us—and how to discern whether a partnership is helping you become more of yourself or quietly asking you to shrink.

A person can be attractive, intelligent, loving and compatible on paper, while the relational environment you create together repeatedly brings out a version of you that you do not like, trust or respect.

Does that mean the relationship is wrong?

Not necessarily.

Sometimes the problem is not the environment. Sometimes we lack the self-awareness, communication skills or emotional regulation required to show up differently. We may blame the relationship for patterns that would follow us wherever we went.

But sometimes, no matter how much individual work we do, the relationship continues reinforcing an outdated version of us. Our growth becomes inconvenient to our partner. Our evolving desires are treated as threats. We bump against a ceiling constructed from who the other person expects us to remain.

In this conversation, we discuss how to tell the difference.

We explore masking, self-abandonment and the ways people suppress their desires to maintain harmony. We talk about the “third consciousness” created by two people in relationship—and why certain combinations consistently produce the same emotional environment, even after both people have matured.

We also examine one of the most important questions a couple can ask:

Will you still love me if I change?

Healthy partnership does not require two people to remain frozen in the forms they occupied when they first met. It requires enough trust to keep orienting toward—and falling in love with—the person your partner is becoming.

That does not mean accepting every change without boundaries. Growth that feels unfamiliar or temporarily inconvenient is different from behavior that violates your values or leaves you feeling disrespected.

Real compatibility allows freedom and respect to coexist.

By the end of the episode, we offer a practical relationship exercise built around three questions:

Who do I want to become?
Who do I think my partner wants me to become?
Who does my partner actually want me to become?

Where those answers align, there is something worth celebrating.

Where they differ, there is an important conversation waiting to happen.

This episode is for anyone who wants to build a relationship where both people are free to grow, change and become more fully themselves—without abandoning personal responsibility or asking the other person to become someone they were never meant to be.

Learn more about Jessica and Isaac: https://sovereignunion.co/

Subscribe to our newsletter for a weekly dose of rotating wisdom on The Great Spirit, Sovereign Union, The Mature Masculine, and The Mystical Feminine: https://sovereignunion.co/su-newsletter

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

This actually no longer feels good for me.

SPEAKER_01 0:04

I feel inconvenienced by the way that you're changing and growing.

SPEAKER_04 0:07

I think the way that we just interacted and triggered each other specifically didn't really have an option other than being explosive.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

You want somebody that you love to be more of themselves, even if that comes at the cost of that relationship.

SPEAKER_04 0:25

Anyone can pretend to be anyone for three months. The medicine you need is the medicine that you never take. So if you are someone who's always leaving because it's always the environment's fault, consider say it's you. It's not them.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Will you still love me if I change?

SPEAKER_04 0:42

Welcome to the Well Worship Man Podcast, where men come to build unshakable presence, become the rock in their relationships, and build a legacy that lasts beyond their years. Here, we explore the path to mature masculinity through humble power, daily devotion, and unwavering integrity.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Thanks, baby. What's it like to be recording our first podcast here in Argentina?

SPEAKER_04 1:08

It's mostly cold.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 1:11

As seen by your hat and coat.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Yeah. Usually I like to be kind of dressed up for these, but I'd rather be warm. Or at least close to it.

SPEAKER_04 1:27

Yeah. This is kind of like the outcome of when you listen to Spirit and Don't Ask Questions. You know, we were already agreed to come to Argentina and then we found out it was winter.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Yeah, I didn't order this jacket though. So that's good.

SPEAKER_04 1:43

I exclusively have sweaters that are cropped. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

What are we talking about today, baby?

SPEAKER_04 1:51

Yeah, today we are going to talk about how different relationships bring out different sides of us and the art of choosing a relationship that allows you to be a version of yourself that you like.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

It's kind of a different way of evaluating the relationship. I think how most people approach relationship is how much do I like this person? And that can be measured a lot of different ways, right? Some of them healthy, some of them unhealthy, is how activated is my nervous system around this person, how intense are the feelings. Um, but this is a new way of thinking about and feeling into what relationship is right for you, is not how much do I like that person, which is important, but how do I change in the consistent presence of this person? And I'm curious, do you think that it's something that you can notice um just on one date, or is it something that there needs to be a larger sample size to collect?

SPEAKER_04 3:02

I think initially, you know, like the first time or two or three that you're with someone, the primary thing that you're evaluating is like, are we even resonant? You know, like do we click? Am I uncomfortable? Is my body telling me something yes or no about this person? So there is a little bit more of like on the first or second date, do I enjoy this person's presence? And also, does it feel easeful to me to be in their presence? Versus over time, our patterns start to come out more. You know, they'll say that anyone can pretend to be anyone for three months. So this feels particularly relevant for relationships that are lasting longer than three months, whether that's, you know, the actual like start date of this is when we became official. But actually, it seems more like you've been with the person, however, officially or not for three months or longer.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

It seems like early on, the question that can be asked is how do I feel around this person? Not is this person attractive or smart or ask great questions, but how do I feel around this person? And then as the relationship continues, the question can be answered of who am I in this relationship?

SPEAKER_04 4:21

Yeah. And for my own personal experience, I've only really evaluated this retrospectively, which is potentially a part of why I wanted to share some of this stuff and wanted us to just, you know, talk about it a little bit on this podcast, because I feel like had I evaluated that during some of my relationships, I might have left things that weren't meant for me sooner, instead of like thinking that maybe there was something wrong with me. And if only I fixed it, the relationship would be changed. Um, but shifting the perspective into oh, maybe this is just the way that the two of our energies or the two of our souls meet. And the outcome is that I am this person in this person's presence. And sometimes there are ways that we can show up differently to improve the relationship and improve the relationship, the way the relationship is moving. But this conversation around the environment that's growing us is not one that's had so much, and I think is really important.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah. I'm thinking that who you are in when you're with somebody. So you and I are in relationship. Yes. Who I am when I'm in your presence and who I am when I'm in your absence is essentially the same. But I think in other relationships it might be different. And what might that mean if it's different and not consistent?

SPEAKER_04 6:00

I think if it's different, then it's telling you. I mean, it could be telling you a few things. One is that maybe you're masking in the presence of this person, which means performing in some way, you know, showing up in a way that you think they want you to be. And then in their absence, you have more space to be who you are authentically. And then there's the flip side where maybe that person is making you a better version of yourself and you haven't quite accessed the ability to integrate that or sustain it. And so the evaluation is important, you know, like you can know something, but we say this all the time: like, awareness is not enough. You really need the reflection on it and then the embodiment of it to shift it. And so the reflection on okay, am I a better person? Do I like myself better with in the presence of this person or with this person in my life? Or do I actually feel more like myself when they when they leave? I'm wondering, in your experience, like if you were to look back at your major relationships, were there phases of those relationships where you really liked yourself in them and then maybe something shifted? Or had you had this concept, maybe there would have been like a different evaluation of them?

SPEAKER_01 7:19

I think one thing is key, self-awareness is key first. So I think even if I had had this question in my earlier relationships, I don't know that it would have changed anything. But hindsight is 2020, and and looking back, like who was I in my first long-term relationship? Very laissez faire, very go with the flow, kind of a fluid spine. I wouldn't say that I stood really strong in my masculinity, but you know, like I did have a lot of fun. I didn't have very many problems, at least problems that I was aware of. And in that relationship, I felt pretty much the same about myself around her and without her. Um, so that was consistent, but there was a lot of masking and hiding my true desires and my needs. Um, and so that's not somebody that I would want to be again. I wouldn't want to be in a relationship where I subordinated my desires to my partners every time or when or where I would keep quiet to keep the peace. That is self-abandonment to me now. And I think any relationship where there's self-abandonment happening, it's it's really a shrinking of the self instead of a relationship where you become more of yourself, which I think is another way to kind of answer this question. Are you becoming less of yourself? Are you morphing or contorting yourself to be with this person or be accepted by this person or to experience harmony in the relationship? Or are you becoming more of yourself? Are you expressing more of the things that you want and need are and are and are important to you? And are those things held as valuable within the relationship? And that really wasn't something that was present um in that that earlier on relationship. So it's interesting. I felt like I could I was the same in her absence and in her presence, right? Like I was kind of being me in both places, but it was like this 50% me. And that was a result not just of the relationship, but of my where I was in my level of development.

SPEAKER_04 9:48

Yeah. So from your perspective, at least in that relationship, you're describing it's kind of like a lack of awareness overall that was creating that version of you, not necessarily the relationship itself.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Yeah. Yeah. A lack of self-awareness, a lack of skill, a lack of knowledge of how to be in relationship and communicate.

SPEAKER_04 10:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:13

Um, it's interesting because if I think back on some of my relationships, you know, the definitely the lack of skill, like the lack of ability to regulate my nervous system and just to be able to track when I was functioning from like a survival state versus actually being in connection, like all of that definitely plays into how we're showing up in partnerships. But I do really feel that there's a way that two different beings create this like third consciousness or the environment of the relationship itself. Whereas like I've gone from one relationship to the next, seemingly, you know, not having different skills. You know, our skill set kind of grows consistently-ish over time, but leaving one relationship and entering another, it's like I was a completely new person or like completely able to access those skills that I did know with so much more ease. And so, like in one of my first relationships, we were just so eruptive in the way that we would communicate. And it's like the way that I would communicate with other people at that time was not so intense. And that has to do a little bit with the closeness of the mirror in partnership. But also, I think the way that we just interacted and triggered each other specifically didn't really have an option other than being explosive. And like even when I went back to that relationship years later and had more skills, and both of us had emotionally matured in a lot of ways, when there were things we disagreed about, it still had that same flavor, even though it was happening less often and less intensely. And so, you know, some of the things that I share with people when they're in a relationship that feels like it's cycling is that sometimes it really is just that's the environment that's created, you know, like red and yellow make orange. And there's nothing that you can ever do to change that. Like red and yellow are not gonna suddenly make purple. And so that is part of this reflection process. Like, yeah, it can I learn more skills? Can I learn to be more aware in this environment? Or is there actually a way that I show up to this relationship that like I don't like? And that was the case for that partnership, you know?

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah. When I was speaking earlier about my lack of self-awareness and skills, that was partially a result of the environment that I had co-created with that partner because there can be environments that are co-created where skills are brought online and ways of being, new ways of being are amplified. And I think one thing that limited that in this previous relationship was that she had an ideal or an expectation of who she wanted me to be, and I probably had that of her as well. And what that doesn't allow is for me, for example, to become something other than what her expectation is, right? So the environment that we collectively created kept the skills from coming online or the expression of needs, desires from coming online that kept us each in these neat boxes of who you wanted the other person to be. So that's a question, too, for people to ask is who does your partner want you to be in this relationship? And does that feel like more of you or less of you? Does it feel like they want you to be something because they love you, or does it feel like they want you to be something out of selfishness for what makes them feel comfortable? Because really love is, you know, you want somebody that you love to be more of themselves, even if that comes at the cost of that relationship or the orientation of the relationship, that you might lose that person as they become more of you. The two of you might get to places where you're no longer resonant. Um, and if the two of you are okay with that, you're actually creating an environment where the relationship can be a vehicle for spiritual development. If you're not, you're you're casting these ceilings for each other that become impossible to surpass. And so while you might stay in the relationship, the growth will stall and the relationship will start to ache.

SPEAKER_04 15:00

Yeah, that's interesting. Like, who does my partner see me as? Who or who does my partner want me to be? Because I'm thinking about conversations that one of my former partners and I used to have, uh, where he was like convinced that I wanted to be with someone else who was ironically working a similar job as me, which now I am, you know. So part of me wonders if that was just like his intuition that I was meant to be. Um, but in that process, like a lot of his internal dialogue was that he just needed to be this version of himself in order for our relationship to function well, when really like that wasn't ever what I was asking. And so there is this question about like, who does my partner see me as? Who do they want me to be, and who I think they want me to be? Because those might not all be the same thing versus when I tune into our partnership right now, it's like I feel that who I desire to be and who I think you want me to be, and who I think you think you want me to be are all coherent. And like I think that if I wrote, you know, that down on a piece of paper and you wrote your perception of who I'm growing into, and vice versa, that they would be the same versus in other partnerships. I don't think that that would have been the case. I think that who I was desiring to be truly at my core versus who I thought the other person wanted me to be would have had differences.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Yeah, the alignment of those three questions needs to be the same. Right. I think that's a good exercise, is who do who do I want to be? Who do I think you want me to be? And then, for example, you could write who you want me to be. Right. And then we could check those things. And there might be like some minor differences, but I agree. I think everything would be pretty much in line, and those minor differences would be important conversations for us to have.

SPEAKER_04 17:09

Yeah. Um I almost feel like we should do that.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Yeah, I think we should. Okay, so we paused to do the exercise. We each answered the questions who do I want to be? Who do I think the other wants me to be, and who do I want the other to be? So we're going to share you first.

SPEAKER_04 17:35

Me first. Okay. I'll say that I had trouble putting this into words, but we'll see how this goes. Okay, who do I want to be? I want to be the most beautiful expression of myself whose spirit intended. I want more childlike joy and playfulness while simultaneously feeling the strength of womanhood running through my bones. I foresee my evolution bringing me more confidence in my embodiment, clarity in my communication, and generosity in my connections. The outward changes resulting from these internal shifts will bring more opportunities for pleasure, nourishment, and service, more laughter, more creativity, more being.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

I love that. And the second one you'll share is who do you think I want you to be?

SPEAKER_04 18:24

Yeah. I think Isaac wants me to be more empowered in my sensitivity, more confident in my expression, more nourished by life itself. I'm saying more, but I think his real prayer is for me to remember the ways in which these things are already true. The outward expression of these internal shifts would result in more playful and easeful days together, more invitations into rooms that elevate us in our mission, and more passion for self-life and each other.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

And now I'm gonna share who I want you to be. I want Jessica to be an exuberantly joyful, free, and enthusiastic woman. I want her to dance and sing openly and to know how special her mind is. I want her to be in love with her body and in childlike wonder of the world around her. I want her to feel safe and free of stress and to feel the overwhelming abundance that spirit provides. I want her to enjoy every moment and be steeped in enriching community and for her wisdom to be recognized and rewarded.

SPEAKER_04 19:34

That's nice.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:37

That feels aligned.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

It does. Uh when you were sharing the first one of basically you wrote, I want to be who spirit wants me to be, or something. I was like, I should have been the first thing that I wrote who spirit wants you to be is more important than who I want you to be.

SPEAKER_04 19:56

But I think that that's part of this exercise, you know. It's like when we get to know who like more and more who we want to be, it's like we get that sensation of this is what I feel like when I'm most like myself by way of being in alignment, you know. And it's like when you're reading that, it's like I feel emotional and I like receive what you want from me because it feels the same. It's like the gift of having a partner who's in alignment is like sometimes when we're all in our own stuff, we can't really like it's hard to connect with what spirit wants for us, you know, because it can because that disconnection feels so loud. But it's like that feels like I don't know how past partners would have answered this question, but it's like when you read what you want from me, I'm like, okay, like that feels like more of me, you know, that feels like more of like what spirit wants for me. So it feels like it feels the same.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Yeah. And when what I want you to be, and what you want you to be, and what spirit wants you to be are the same. And everything that I didn't write that you wrote that you want you to be, I'm like, I also want that.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

There's nothing, there's nothing in there where I was like, ooh, I don't know about that. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_04 21:13

Yeah, same. Okay, who do you want to be?

SPEAKER_01 21:18

I want to be a strong leader who is connected to his heart and devoted to the service of others. I want to be unhurried and present with all of my conversations and moments, fully trusting of spirit and grounded in my purpose. I want to be fully expressed in my creativity, art, and beliefs. I want to be someone who men look to for an example of mature masculinity.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

I also want to be fun, silly, and sexy. I want to be a calm, loving, and wise father.

SPEAKER_04 21:55

Who do you think I want to be?

SPEAKER_00 21:58

I think Jessica wants me to be.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Fully expressed with balanced energy between my heart and my head to be a megaphone of a voice as a leader, speaker, and creator, to be a provider of security, inspiration, and leadership, to be a thoughtful, considerate and present partner, friend and son, a patient, present father, a lifelong student and teacher, and a happy, satisfied, driven man.

SPEAKER_04 22:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Who do you want me to be?

SPEAKER_04 22:35

I wrote, first and foremost, I love him exactly as he is, and there's no change if necessary. And yet, because change isn't because change is inevitable, I foresee his path bringing a softening of his armor. I desire to know more depths of Isaac's mind, his sight, his soul. So I desire him to be the man who knows more of these aspects of himself as well. The outward expression of these internal shifts are more easeful repair and moments of rupture, more creativity and authenticity in pure mission, and just more of I wrote him, but of you. Um more poetry, more dance, more speaking, more laughter.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:22

Something that feels like sweet about this exercise for us, which for me is unique in this relationship, I think, is that it's more about like how we want each other and ourselves to feel. It's like I think at earlier phases of my life I would have written very specific like physical milestones of like, but it's like that those things just do happen when like we are connected to like our expression. It's like I don't need to like necessarily aim for those things or like to want you to hit like certain mile. I don't even know what I would write for those, but it's like so much more about like the the you that I get to feel. And it's like that's what I was feeling when I was writing this for you. Like, I don't really even know how to describe it because it's like I love who you are so much. It's like I just want like however much access I can have to like all of you, it's like that's what I want. And like whatever that looks like, that's I'm down.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Yeah, yeah. Thanks, baby.

SPEAKER_04 24:39

Yeah, I love you.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

I love you.

SPEAKER_04 24:43

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SPEAKER_01 24:57

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SPEAKER_04 25:29

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SPEAKER_01 25:50

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SPEAKER_04 25:56

So if someone starts evaluating who they are in a relationship and decides, like, actually, I don't really like this version of myself, then how do they discern, like, okay, I don't like this version of myself because I'm not showing up optimally or because it's an environmental problem?

SPEAKER_01 26:17

Yeah, I mean, I think that they should take responsibility for it personally first and try to course correct, have a conversation with their partner about the course correction that they're making. And if that conversation goes poorly and they're not in support of that, then it's an environmental problem.

SPEAKER_04 26:39

When we were talking about maybe talking about this on the podcast, I was mentioning like people do the same thing not just in partnership, but like with jobs and with other environments. And there is this balance where it's like, I can't just blame everything I'm experiencing in life on my partner or on my the job that I have or on my family. You know, there is this like responsibility that needs to be taken of, okay, well, I'm choosing to be with this partner. I'm choosing to work this job. And so if I want to make the decision to work this job or be around my family or be with this partner or whatever it is, then the question instead becomes, okay, how do I show up as a better version of myself in these environments? Versus if you actually feel like the environment isn't meant for you, then the responsibility becomes removing yourself from it.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Yeah, there's the John Cabotzin quote, wherever you go, there you are, right? There's people that compulsively move to try to get away from their problems, and there their problems show up in this in different ways in a new place. Um, so it is important that people try to make that change themselves first. Sometimes it is, you just need to get your act together. Maybe you've been in the relationship long enough that you become complacent and you really do just need to pick things back up. And um it's a question that I'll ask myself or ask clients is you know, someone wants to be happier, right? Or they want to experience more safety. It's like, okay, if nothing else changed, if nothing external changed in your life, do you think that you could experience more happiness or more peace? And usually the answer is yes. There's some internal shifts that need to happen. There's some practices that can be leaned into. Um, and sometimes the environment is handicapped, the environment is prohibitive. And um, you don't really know that. You can't know that for sure unless you make the individual effort to change into that version of you that you want to be. And then if the environment is actually what you're bumping up against, it's not letting you, right? Your partner is negatively reinforcing old versions of you. I wish you were this, I wish you were that, this new version of you, it doesn't really sit with me well, right? Then it is an environmental issue.

SPEAKER_04 29:16

That feels like a really good guideline of like, okay, being being the version of you that you want to be, you know, like doing that internal reflection of how do I show up to X, Y, Z and feel more like myself and feel more joy and feel more happiness and feel more authenticity, and then seeing how the environment accepts or doesn't. Because it is true that a lot of the lack of adjustment that occurs in life is because of the internal stories that we have, you know, like, oh, I'm not gonna go to the gym because I don't, because it's cold outside, or because I don't feel like it, or because I'm sad or blah, blah, blah, or I'm not going to speak to this person in community because what will they think of me? And it's like, okay, but if you actually do the thing, if you actually do the thing that you're desiring to do, whether it's like create more or be kind to people or be more outgoing or take more time to yourself, whatever it is that you're feeling like you need, and you start feeling more like yourself, but then you're just being criticized for it, that is definitely a sign that the environment is not, is not serving your, you know, return to self. I'm thinking too, like we often say that the medicine you need is the medicine that you never take. So if you are someone who's always leaving because it's always the environment's fault, consider staying. You know, consider an internal shift before the external shift. Or if you are someone who's been in the same partnership in the same community, in the same city, in the same job for so long, consider changing. Like maybe there actually is an external shift that could catalyze some sort of shift for you internally that, you know, is hard. Like I think it's important to honor that if we're in the same place for a really long time, it's challenging to shift out of the perception that the place has of us or for us to move into a different place, which is why people don't usually do it. And for partnerships specifically, it's like that partnership that I was describing at first, that was one of my first relationships. I really like loved that person. And it was the first time that I really felt love from them. And yet we were really like explosive in our conversations. But um, you know, up until that point, that was like the most accessible it felt for me to be my full version of myself in front of anyone. And so it feels really challenging of like, oh, this is the one place that was the story at the time. Like, this is the one place that I can like really be myself. And yet it's creating harm for me and this other person. But if I leave this place, then I'll like never get to feel as much like myself as I feel here. And so, yeah, it just feels important to honor that like those shifts are hard, especially when it does involve leaving someplace that feels like the only one you get to experience a certain part of yourself that you like. And the reality is that we just need to build build data otherwise, like, where else in my life can I feel like myself? And where else in my life can I create, you know, space for me to show up authentically and in whatever parts that are feeling like they're exclusive to that person? Because the truth is, like, if you're experiencing an emotion or a part of yourself in the presence of anything, it's it's you, it's not them. But there are certain environments and certain people that bring out certain parts of ourselves that maybe we didn't know existed or we forgot existed or whatever that we can really like. And then when we lose that person or that job or whatever, it can feel like that part of us is also at risk of loss, which I think is what makes, you know, the idea of leaving an environment that isn't supporting us so scary. Um, but if it's a part of you, then it's a part of you and you can access it anywhere else.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

Yeah. The first question you stated in that relationship, is it okay to be myself here? And you said, yes. And when I look at my relationship history, in the first one, it was like mostly but not completely okay to be myself. And then in the next relationship, it was clear that it was okay to be myself. And I think the bigger question, once that one is answered, is will you still love me if I change? Um, that's one of the biggest mistakes that couples make, is they get this fixed version of who the other person is and how they present in the relationship. And then when they inevitably change, because that's the flavor of life is personal growth, it's kind of disconcerting for them or disorienting. And I think that's natural, but the response to the disorientation can be, uh no, I don't like this. Or it can be like get yourself oriented to this new version of this person. Um, and it must be okay for you to change. You must be confident that if you change, that person will still love you. Uh, because otherwise, like that's where the place gets reached in relationships where somebody stops growing and the other person still wants to, and then all of a sudden, the two of you aren't on the same page anymore.

SPEAKER_04 34:59

Yeah, I mean, we've talked about this before in our relationship where I have this wound where after a certain amount of time, the person I was dating doesn't appear to have the same values as like the person I was dating before. And I think what was happening in those other relationships was actually this essence of masking that you and I were talking about in the beginning of this conversation, where like there was an appearance of yes, we have the same values. And then actually the embodiment of those values weren't necessarily there. But that is different from like, oh, you're actually just growing into a different version of yourself. And this idea of just orienting to who your partner's growing into is really, I don't know, I've really felt that when you said that. Instead of like being so focused on, well, this is what life used to be like, or this is how you used to XYZ, or I liked my life when I was 20 years old. You know, it's like kind of the same thing as when people grow older feeling some type of remorse and like wanting to still be in their younger years. But it's like, what if actually we just get to pause and be curious about the unfolding of like, hmm, like which version of you do I get to love today? You know, which version of you do I get to witness differently today and like know more deeply?

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Yeah. And on the flip side of that, as the person who's watching their partner change, what that brings up in them is perfectly natural too. It might be uh a lack of security or some fear. And it's important that if the relationship is for the highest good, that that person learn that they are still safe even amidst this change that their partner is going through. Um, and that takes both partners, right? So one partner needs to know that it's okay to change, that there's still love to be changed, and the other person needs to know the same thing, that the person that's changing still loves them and is committed to their safety.

SPEAKER_04 37:11

There is an undercurrent of the importance of trust in that unfolding, because there is, I think, a level of trust that we don't always have, mostly don't have earlier in our life's journey, where then when someone does change, it's like an internal question of, oh, did I make the wrong choice? But as your personal trust in yourself develops, we've had this conversation before where I'm like, okay, even if I feel disoriented by a change that you're going through or by a level of your like healing journey that you're accessing, I know that I can trust who I feel you are at your core. And in past partnerships, I don't feel like I had that level of trust in myself, nor that level of trust in the partner or the partnership that, like, yes, people will grow into different expressions of themselves, but I'm still me. Like, I'm not suddenly someone else. I'm just a different expression of like the same soul.

SPEAKER_03 38:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:24

And so the depth of the connection and the trust in the connection feels really important because I feel with certainty that like whichever iteration of Isaac you take over time, there's enough of a foundation that like I know you're not gonna turn into or grow into a version that I like have moral misalignments with, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

Yeah, there's two important things to look at and they're they're nuanced. The first is is this person just changing? Are they developing new interests? Are they flexing new personalities? That's healthy. The second is are they acting like themselves? When somebody's not acting like themselves, and when I say acting like themselves, I mean their core being. Are they not acting like themselves? When you're not acting like yourself, I know there's something wrong. When you're just acting a little different because you have a new interest or a new hat that you want to try on, that's not a problem. So knowing your partner, trusting that you know your partner at their core is really important so that you can discern when they need support in returning to center and when they need support in anchoring in a new change that they're bringing into their lives. Because one is like something's not right and they need some center, they need some ground. And the other is they're just like trying something new on, they're like dipping their toes into something else, and they may need like a little, a little nudge, a little gentle push in the back in that direction, and and being able to discern both is key. And as I'm talking, you know, in an unhealthy relationship, it can be uh a way to manipulate the other, a way to keep them the way that you want them to say, oh no, like you're not acting like yourself. And I need to get you back to center. But that's not actually what's happening, it's a selfish desire.

SPEAKER_04 40:37

Well, that's why like your own connection to who you are is so important. So that if someone says, like, you're not acting like yourself or you're X, Y, Z, we had this conversation in our podcast with Josh where it's like, if you know that you're putting intention into everything and that you're approaching everything with love, and then someone else says you're not, you can take that and deflect it and say, like, that's not true. We can have a conversation about why maybe for you it's appearing that that's not the case. But otherwise, like I know for sure that this actually is my center. And so, you know, this comes back to sometimes what we say about like being the resonance of the partnership you want, because it's not about like being worthy of love, but the better you know yourself, the more stable your partnership is going to be. And it's because of stuff like that, where it's like, okay, if I know that this is this general somatic feeling is what I feel like when I feel most like myself, then I can continuously follow that in in partnerships and community, in you know, new hobbies and whatever. But the the reason that we change and like, you know, dip our toe into these new ponds is because we're following ideally that sensation of like, this is helping me feel even more like myself, even more like myself, even more like myself. So that if someone in the relationship is saying, no, you're not being, I know who you are, and you don't, you can say that you're a miss because I know what it feels like when I'm myself and this is it. And then that same thing that you were saying is like you bumping up against the environment that like actually just doesn't have the space for you to be who you are at your core. But you must know at least what it feels like when you get glimpses of you know who you feel like when you feel most like yourself. Otherwise, if you like aren't familiar with that glimpse, then it's gonna be easy for people to convince you otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

And the reason they convince, try to convince you otherwise is for their own convenience, their own feeling of familiarity or comfort. So you also need a partner that can be okay when your change inconveniences them or is unfamiliar to them or is uncon uncomfortable, right? And there's like there's boundaries to all of these things, right? It's not that they feel so inconvenient that now their sense of it feels so inconvenient that their sense of safety has disappeared. But it's like if you are like, I'm not, I'm not gonna eat dairy anymore. I'm not gonna, I'm like, but I want to cook our eggs in butter. Like, no, you do eat butter. This isn't you're not being yourself, you eat butter. Like that would be like a really silly example of like how your change is inconveniencing me, and so I'm trying to keep you the same or keep you eating butter. It's like and then the the other extreme of that is like I just want to like date other people, you know. This is just like who I am, and this is not happening here, but this is just like who. I am, and I'm like, no, like that's not okay with me. Yeah. You know, that's we've talked a lot about this, and like that doesn't feel authentic to you. And if it is, you know, then this relationship is no longer authentic to me. So um, there's there's a lot of nuance to it, and a lot of ways that that people need to be discerning.

SPEAKER_04 44:22

Yeah, that last example you gave, I have had experiences like that in a past relationship. And it's like, had we had the reflections of like, do I like who I'm being in this partnership? The other aspect is not only do I like the person that I'm being in this partnership, but do I respect the person that I'm being in this partnership? And do I respect the other person and do they respect me? You know, but it's really like if we're talking about this practice of not only the how do I feel about you sitting across from me, but how do I feel about the me sitting in this chair? It's like, if we can evaluate like, do I respect, do I trust, and do I like the person I am in this partnership? It gives a lot of information about if the environment is actually supporting your full expression. And, you know, like you said, then the next step is okay, well, can I be someone I trust, respect, and like in this relationship? And what happens when I try? And that's what you're sharing. And that example is like, okay, well, if I try that, then ideally it's the other person's responsibility to say, this actually no longer feels good for me. And that's what would happen in a uh the ideal relationship. But you know, in many relationships, what happens is they try to shut down your expression. And either one of those is gonna show you that like the partnership isn't aligned anymore. But what's scary and why people don't just say, hey, like that's good for you, but it's not good for me. So that's it, is because of the love that is there, you know, and it's scary to lose something. I mean, to your point, like, yeah, the other person's presence isn't the only thing that's creating safety, but partnership does create a lot of safety, you know, and so to lose that level of safety, that level of validation, that level of intimacy as a result of you showing up more like yourself, or as a result of you saying, okay, the way that you're showing up and that is feeling authentic to you is no longer feeling aligned to me, is scary.

SPEAKER_01 46:31

Yeah, 100%. And one of the words I used earlier is feeling inconvenienced. I feel inconvenienced by the way that you're changing and growing. That's probably okay. But if I feel disrespected by the way that you're changing and growing, that's that's a tougher one. Like that's probably a harder boundary. So I think as we, you know, as we look at the spectrum of ways that one person can feel as their partner is changing, that that disrespect starts to get to that, you know, that that red area, right? And inconvenience is kind of like in the green-yellow area.

SPEAKER_04 47:11

Do you feel like there have been expressions in partnerships that you've been in before where someone was embodying like their natural essence? And rather than say, oh, that's not good for me, you stayed, like that. You you didn't express that boundary?

SPEAKER_01 47:30

Yeah, I think that there's been examples of previous partners being, we'll just say free. Um it's hard to talk about it without being like specific, but being being free, like what they would say, like expressing themselves and uh where it did feel like disrespect to me as their partner. And I try to set those boundaries, right? But we talked about this before on the podcast. It's in another episode. Um, I think my broken engagement story, where I didn't enforce those boundaries until there wasn't really a boundary. Uh, but that's what I've bumped up against most, which is like previous partners trying on this feminine sexual liberation, which we've I think we've talked about before on this podcast, is kind of like this this overcorrection against like the patriarchal controlling, is like I feel that, so I'm just gonna like show my tits on Instagram or like whatever it is, and um, that never was really okay with me. But I also felt uncomfortable enforcing that boundary because of what they were responding to, yeah. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 48:48

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:49

And today it would be different, but it's like I couldn't delineate my boundary from the same type of patriarchal control that they were rebelling against. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_04 49:00

Yeah. Well, I think too, like, you know, we talk about freedom in the context of our relationship, and it's like there is a little bit of a spectrum between like freedom and respect for your partner, you know, and also our definition of what freedom is versus like what someone else's definition of freedom might be. And so, you know, there are skills that we develop over time where it's like, okay, this feels free to you, but it it doesn't feel honoring to this relationship. So is this like a misalignment or is there a way I can support this process without it feeling disrespectful to me, you know? And some of that is just like developing over time, you know. It's like I wouldn't have had the skills to have that conversation when I was 24.

SPEAKER_01 49:50

Totally. Yeah. So respect for your partner and your level of freedom, sometimes it can seem like those two things are in conflict. If you're really committed to your partner, I think respect for your partner wins. I don't actually know.

SPEAKER_04 50:05

I don't think that they conflict.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

Like, I think it's for two compatible people, they don't conflict.

SPEAKER_04 50:12

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So it's like they're yes, in a a partnership that is maybe like a bridge to a partnership later, or that is a process of evolution for the two of you, there might be conflict. But I think that in a partnership that's actually aligned, freedom and respect won't conflict because to me, like the internal process that I have with my own, like, what is my freest expression? And what it just like is a match for how you feel respected. And maybe in like another woman's respect or uh expression of their freedom wouldn't even like trigger that in the style of partnership that they have. I don't really know, but I do think that like that is one of the ways that you can discern alignment, you know? And that's really what we've been talking about this whole time. It's like, do I have the space to express here in a way that feels fully like myself without feeling judged or restricted? And if I don't, then I'm hitting an environmental problem. And it's not to say that there's anything wrong with the other person's perspective of freedom or your perspective of respect. It's simply just an a measurable-ish way of showing, like, oh, this isn't a match, actually. And I'm sure there's other like values that go along with that as well. But respect and freedom, definitely in the context of like a monogamous relationship, are an easy one to point out.

SPEAKER_01 51:56

Yeah. So what have we talked about? We've talked about the false conflict between freedom and respect in relationship, and that it actually isn't a conflict in a relationship that is aligned.

SPEAKER_04 52:11

We talked about the way that you know, the internal reflection of do I like who I am here is a way to guide yourself into or away from certain partnerships and other expressions of life, but partnerships specifically.

SPEAKER_03 52:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:28

And just refocusing, not that you shouldn't take into account how you feel about your partner, but that you also want to take into account like how you feel about yourself in that context.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

Yeah. And we also talked about the personal responsibility of stepping into the person that you want to be as first just required for your growth and development, and two, as a way to test the environment to see if there actually is an environmental problem where you bump against uh bubble up against the glass ceiling trying to make that change, or somebody's reflecting back an old version of you that makes it harder, impossible for you to continue on your track, or if it's if the environment has just become a scapegoat for your own lack of sovereignty. So for homework, for those of you that are in a relationship, and we can also tailor this to those of you who aren't too. So for both of those sorts of people, writing down who you want to become, who you want to grow into, um, the qualities that you want to amplify, and also the things that you want to let go of. So writing that down. And then writing down who you think your partner wants you to be, or if you're not in a relationship, who you think your best friend wants you to be, or your parent, or another close relationship that you're devoted to improving. Um, and then have them write who they want you to be. Um, and then compare the three. And for anything that is identical or similar, celebrate it. And for anything that's different, you know, maybe they want you to be something that you didn't notice that you're like, oh, actually, that sounds good. Like, I'm I'm on board with that, right? And that's a really special moment. Or if they want you to be something that you don't really want to be, that's an important thing to communicate in a healthy relationship. That oh, okay, I didn't even realize you didn't want that for yourself. Uh okay, it doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is that you you are more of you. Um, so answering those two things yourself, having your person that you're in relationship with answer the other one, and then comparing and and having a conversation around it can be really constructive.

SPEAKER_03 54:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:54

Yeah. All right, make sure to leave us a rating on your podcast platform, subscribe on YouTube, and we'll see you on the next one. Peace it.