Ep 21: When Running Hurts… Here’s What You Should Actually Do

Most runners ignore injury advice… until they can’t run.

Joe Keain is different. An endorsed podiatrist and director at Podfit Podiatry in Adelaide... and a runner himself... Joe understands both sides of the injury conversation. From shin splints and Achilles tendinopathy to load management, orthotics, and overuse, he’s lived the mistakes many runners repeat.

In this episode of Runbelievable, Joshie and Matty sit down with Joe to talk about running as an outlet, the fine line between pain and damage, and why managing load matters more than chasing perfect conditions. Joe also reflects on ultra running, early-morning miles, balancing family with self-employment, and what happens when the headphones die and you’re left alone with your thoughts.

Follow Joe's journey: https://www.instagram.com/joekeainpodiatrist/

In this episode:

• From footy player to marathoner and ultra runner
• How running inspired a career in podiatry
• Pain management vs load management
• Running as an outlet... even when the body isn’t perfect
• Ultra training, long solo miles, and self-reflection
• Balancing family, self-employment, and running goals

Runbelievable: real runners, unreal stories.

Interested in being a guest on the show? Hit us up!

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Transcript

Intro

Joe 0:07

And the thoughts that come up were just like stuff I hadn't thought about for like years. I'd have thought like, oh, why did my girlfriend break up with me in year five? Why didn't you like me? And I was like, what is happening? Like, it's like mentally right now.

Joshie 0:21

Hello everybody and welcome to Run Believable, the podcast that celebrates the human side of running. I'm your host, Josh Christian, and I'm here to bring you stories of grit, glory, and overcoming adversity. Each episode we'll dive deep into what first got people running and what keeps them lacing up day after day. From the laughs and the lessons to unpredictable kids on bikes. This is why we run and how it shapes who we become. And coming up in a few moments, you'll meet a runner who's combined passion and purpose and is going to share his insights not just on his personal journey, but also his work as a senior podiatrist. I really can't wait to pick his brain about my Achilles tendinopathy. Maddie, welcome back. Thanks, Joshy. Thanks for having me. Pleasure. Look, one thing listeners don't know is you've got all this quirky running material that comes up in your feed, either on Facebook or Instagram, I'm not sure. Now, until now, Maddie's been sitting on these little nuggets of gold. But folks, starting today, he's going to start pewing those nuggets of running gold right out of his sexy ass. Take us away, Maddie. What have you got? Okay.

Matty 1:30

Yeah, these sorts of things interest me. So what I want to sort of mention today is, and I heard about this when I first started running, um, and it blew my mind. But it's the world's longest race. Um it's called the Self-Transcendence 3,100-mile race. Um it's huge. Um happens every June and is in New York, and it's basically around one block in New York that they run for 52 days. You need to be able to run two marathons per day to finish it in 52 days. It's insane. Yeah, it's it's it's incredible. And it's um, it'd be more of a mind game, I think, than anything. Um you have to run it on the footpath because um being New York, there's traffic everywhere. Of course. So you've got no choice. Since its um inception in 1987, I think it was 1987. Um, less, sorry, 2012. Okay. My bad. Um, less than 40 people have actually finished the race. Oh my god. So less than 40.

Joshie 2:28

So are you planning on being person number 40 to finish it?

Matty 2:32

No, no, I don't think I could do that. My head plays mind games on me on the long run, let alone doing that.

Runbelievable Rundown

Quiz Time: How Well Does Matty Know.. Matty WTF

Guest Spotlight: Joe Keain

Joshie 2:40

Oh, that is awesome. Oh, I love that. Um, yeah, keep keep coming up with stuff like that, Maddie. That is absolute gold. And if you like this new little segment, uh, we need to have a name for it at some stage, by the way. But anyway, if you liked it, please let us know. If not, don't tell us. We deeply personalize feedback. Now, Maddie, it's time for the unbelievable rundown, and I would like to give a shout out to our early Strava Club members. They responded to a question a few weeks ago about what lessons they learned over the course of the week or maybe the weekend. We had a really good response and quite a diverse range of responses. And I'm just going to pick out a couple that I really liked. Um, former guest uh Craig Parsons, he said that you really can't predict how easy or hard a run is going to be until you just get out there and do it. He had two runs that he did, I think, in the same week, that perhaps on paper looked like they were going to be the same, but they went in completely opposite directions to how he predicted, which I think is incredible. We all sort of go through it. Lots of people talking about just challenges in recovery, needing to be kinder to themselves. Um uh previous guest Mark Wigglesworth, oh, during your run, filling your cap with water and throwing it over your head never stops feeling amazing. Oh, it doesn't adjust. That'd work for you if you haven't already thrown your hat away, Maddie. That's right. And here's one, uh Jason Reed, um, that he never gets sick of complaining to anyone that will listen about running in the heat. So you have a kindred there, my friend. We should run together because I complain a lot as well. So he's your new best friend. That's right. Uh okay, what else have we got? Um, yeah, so please, if you feel like checking out the the uh Run Believable Strava Club, please do. We have a lot of fun. Okay. Quiz time. Over and under is back. Ah, I like this one. This was one of the first ones. It was. You got off to a flyer. Well, let's see if you like it today. You in fact, you should get three from three. Remember how a few weeks ago we did how well, well, co-host or no host, and I think it was basically questions about myself. How well do you know me? Well, flipping the narrative today, my friend. Today's questions are all about yourself. Oh wow. Yes. How well does Matty know himself himself? Well, we're about to find out. Look, apologies to listen listeners for this one because you might struggle with this. Although, who knows? It's over or under. You've got a 50-50 chance of each one. You may actually end up uh beating Matty. Let's see how we go. Question number one On Strava, do you have over or under? And no cheating, by the way, do you have over or under 182 followers? Over. How did you know that with so much confidence? You threw your head back like you thought you'd got it wrong, by the way. I was thinking following, not followers. No, you have Oh, geez, you're like. But I didn't, yeah, I did, yeah. You would have changed your answer, I think. But anyway, I'll let you have it. 186 at last count. Yeah. Question number two. Over the last four weeks, have you averaged over or under 40.2 kilometers of running? I think I've averaged over. Incorrect, my friend. You've averaged 38.2. Oh, jeez. Yeah, as of five minutes ago. I need to lady pick up my game. You do? Yeah. Well, stick to that plan and you'll be ex um exceeding that in no time. Yeah. In 2025, I think you should get this one correct. Did you complain about the heat over or under 657 times? Over. That is correct. Two from three. Oh, I'm impressed. Uh, and look, listeners, if you if you happen to know Maddie better than he knows himself, please let us know. As recreational runners, we tend to disregard the advice of Allied Health professionals. Well, after today, listeners, there will be no more excuses. Not only is our guest an accomplished runner, he's senior podiatrist and director at PodFit Pediatry in Adelaide, with the team having twice won Australian Pediatrist of the Year at the Australian Allied Health Awards. He's here to keep us all accountable, but also share a beautiful link between his junior running experience and his profession. Can we please welcome Joe Kane? Welcome, Joe. Thanks for having me.

Joe 7:02

Yeah, good, thank you. No bullshit podiatry, I like it.

Joshie 7:06

Already we know that we can put the explicit marking on this episode. Thanks for getting that one out of the way nice and early. No, no, no, it's fine. We're averaging about 70% of episodes with at least uh one S or F bomb.

Joe 7:17

So pump those numbers up, mate. Yeah.

Joshie 7:20

And look, Joe, it's no secret that we've only got you on the show, so I could pick your brain about my Achilles tendinopathy.

Joe 7:25

It's just free therapy, isn't it? It is.

Joshie 7:28

In fact, you'd be quite interested in a poll that we conducted about a month ago where we actually asked people how often they've gone against the advice of allied health professionals when being told to not run. And oh, it was like 86%. Like it's yeah. Is that consistent with your professional experience?

Joe 7:46

Yeah, 100%. I do it to myself. I know I shouldn't do things as a runner, and I do it against my own advice. It's runners are funny. They're a funny population because they're very good at running through pain. And they do this classic thing where they go for a run just to see how injured they are. Yeah. I'm like, but we spoke about this.

Joshie 8:01

So true. Just how bad is it? Yeah.

Joe 8:05

Oh yeah, I still have a bone of trust injury. Okay.

Joshie 8:09

Now look, uh Joe, I think you said it was about five years ago that you were playing uh AFL, playing footy, uh and you did a lot of.

Joe 8:17

I was part of a team. Playing's a very loose term. I'm I'm a very good social club man. I'm a very poor footballer. But yeah, I was part of a team, definitely.

Joshie 8:24

Um well, I assume at the very least that you participated in preseason training, and obviously running was a a part of that. But at what point was it that running sort of became the focus for you?

Joe 8:36

So it was during the 2020 season. I think it was 2020, whenever COVID hit Australia, hit Adelaide. Um, we had a very delayed start to the footy season. So we didn't play until July, as opposed to kind of after Easter, April. And so did a pre-season, COVID hit, was still running outside of that to try and keep fit, thinking the season would come back on eventually. Um ended up just really enjoying the running, got quite fit for longer distance stuff, longer than what we did what we did at footy training. Okay. And then footy season came back, and I just decided not to play and keep running and ended up running a solo marathon, just a virtual one, on a weekend. Had like a 7k loop around my house and did it five and a bit times. Um wouldn't recommend that. Recommend doing an actual event where there's aid stations and toilets and stuff like that. So not the best prep. I was like, wow, marathons suck. Um but nonetheless did it, and that was kind of where the running took off for me.

Joshie 9:26

Oh, fantastic. Uh, and I think from what you told me, so you and I caught up a few weeks ago now, and after you did that sort of self-paced marathon, I think you said that it was the Barossa marathon. Was it Marathon or Half Marathon, 2021? Did the Barossa after that, yeah. Yep. Uh and I guess by then you already had a solid base behind you. So how did that first proper marathon experience compare to the virtual one that you did? It was definitely better.

Joe 9:55

Like obviously, there's people there, the vibes there, the A stations, but A stations and vibes only get you so far. And so the 33k mark obviously still hurt quite a bit. Um, but it went better, like it was a lot better. I pulled up a lot less sore and injured from that one. So in the first virtual one that I did, I gave myself what they call their Tinocinovitis with the perineal tendon. Basically, the tendon that runs down the side of the foot. I inflamed the sheath so much from doing too much running and not training properly and all that kind of stuff, that it felt like I'd broke my foot. And it was like 10 out of 10 pain every single step. Put myself in a moon boot for a couple of weeks after that virtual marathon from work. We've got those, which is handy. Um, and yeah, it took me a while to kind of get over that. So with a second marathon, that didn't happen, which was good. So yeah, much better process that time.

Matty 10:38

You you do find though, I think, when you go like you've done one self-paced, you do one in an actual event. It's completely different. And I find it I haven't run a marathon before, but um the halves that I've done, I find it completely different in terms of the um the atmosphere, the vibe, the adrenaline, all that sort of stuff as well. So did you and what I uh when I first started doing and what I got out of it was this amazing feeling in terms of I'm in this with you're not you're not doing it by yourself, you're in this with a community. Yeah. Um and and that feels so good. Um, did you feel that way? Is did was that part of the hook for you?

Joe 11:18

I think so. I think the thing that really hooks me into running, and like even still while I'm doing longer stuff now, is I like trying to be better, like better in myself, trying to beat myself, trying to go further. And with running as opposed to a team sport, like it's only you. Like, you know, if you don't do the training, it's kind of on you. Whereas a team sport, you can have a great game, but the team plays shit and you still lose, you're like, ah, that was a bit unfortunate, you know. Um yeah, I definitely like the atmosphere that drives me. Um, I love being able to run with someone too, and I like I did it with Victor Harbour half-marathon in December. I picked this lady and I was like, I'm gonna stick with you the whole time, and which was good in theory. She was actually like close to 60 and smoked me too. And I was like, well, okay, maybe we should pick someone a bit slower, but it's nice, it's nice to run and like with someone, have them pace you, which is good.

Joshie 12:03

Yeah, yeah. It is, and you can even meet people that way. We uh I had a a guest recently uh that actually helped a fellow, I think, half marathoner cross the the finish line. They sort of dragged each other across the finish line and um they sort of felt this real connection and it really resonated with other people. There was someone who wrote back and said that they'd actually made an ongoing friendship from someone that they met during an event. And I sort of thought, I can't think of anything else other than a running event where where that can happen. Now, um Joe, correct me if I'm wrong, but you've now run four marathons. Is it four? And even tried your hand at an Ultra, which I think was the Adelaide 54, was it?

Joe 12:45

It was the highs in 70k, yeah, about three years ago was my last one. And I'm doing 100k this July, so Ultra Adelaide's coming up, so I'm training for that at the moment, which is which is good. I'm in the thick of it at the moment. Um just brick by brick at the moment, stacking the stacking the bricks. What's your what's your volume sitting at at the moment? About 45Ks a week at the moment, but a lot of that's trail, so it's very different for me coming from a bit of a road running background. Um I find road running quite I'm not gonna say easy, but quite relaxing. I can put a podcast on, just run, and it doesn't take too much out of me. Um but very different story on the trails. Very different story. So it takes a fair bit of elevation and it yeah, it gets me.

Joshie 13:25

Yeah. It's a bit of a unique experience in terms of you know, focus. I guess it depends on how technical the trail is as well, but you can't get lost in your own sort of mind, otherwise you end up falling flat on your face.

Joe 13:38

Yeah, had my first fall last week actually. Just slipped out from on the rock, landed square on my ass, hurt my elbow, and there's no one around, which was the best thing because I otherwise would have been embarrassed. Um, but I was just like laying on the ground, I was like, uh, why am I doing this again?

Matty 13:53

Yeah, it is embarrassing that I've done it in front of people at an event.

Joshie 13:57

Isn't it funny? The first thing when that happens, the first thing we do is we check around to see whether or not anyone's noticed it.

Joe 14:04

I was running around near my house and I tripped on like a bit of a loose like gutter type thing, fell over, scummed my knee, and this van stopped. He was like, You're right, mate. I was like, keep driving. I was like, don't even stop. Just keep going. I was like, leave me alone, I'm fine.

Joshie 14:19

That's the blood streams down your leg.

Joe 14:23

I ran home and wife's like, what happened to you? You went for like a leisurely run in the suburbs. I'm like, yeah, I fell over.

Joshie 14:30

So those events that you've completed. So you said four marathons and a few ultras now. Is there any one in particular that stands out to you either for the result or for the learning experience?

Joe 14:40

Yeah, look, look, they're all a learning experience, right? I'm not gonna say any marathon's easy. Like, I definitely still find the back end of any, even a half, I find it hard. Like, I feel like your mind when you do events, it's good for 75% of the distance, no matter what is. If I run a 10K, around seven and eight Ks, I'm like, oh, I'm over this. Whereas I run half, eight, 10Ks, I'm over this. Run a marathon, 33, 35Ks, I'm over this. So your mind kind of plays tricks on you. So they're all a all a learning experience, but definitely the 70k I did uh three years ago is my first uh you know, dipping the toes in the water for an Ultra, um, didn't do a very good job training beforehand. I thought I'd get through on determination and willpower, which was kind of right, but I paid for it. Um so the biggest run I did leading up to that was a 14k, and it was all road running, didn't do any trail. And then went out and tried to run a 70k on the trail, um, which was a mistake. Everything I tell my clients not to do, I did. Um that was a very good learning experience about, you know, pushing through pain and being a bit silly.

Joshie 15:36

That's ridiculous. A 14k was your longest long run before tackling was a 70 year old. It was stupid.

Joe 15:41

And I'd done four marathons leading up. So that's so I had a bit of base of running, but I hadn't done one for probably six months. So like I wasn't really running consistently. Um so yeah, that was that was very dumb. And I paid for it. I didn't run it. Yeah, I wasn't living near the trails, I was living near the beach. Well, it was like a 40-minute drive. So I just couldn't be bothered, like I was just being lazy. Um, so that was again silly. And I didn't run for I didn't run for 60 days after that. Like my feet were sore, even just walking day to day for like a good month, like everything just hurt. My tendons didn't have the capacity to run that, my shins were sore, like I didn't have the load built in for that, right? Um but I got through, I gritted through, and you can do a lot. And a conversation I have a lot with with a lot of our running clients now is just because you can grit through on the day, and you can, like you can run a marathon by little training, you can just push through on the day, you can do it. It's like, what about afterwards? Like, what's the body going to be like after that? Is it worth that kind of the pain of the recovery and the potential injury to you know get the Instagram photo on the day? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Joshie 16:38

Yeah. Oh, there are so many questions I want to ask about this, Joe. I don't know which direction to go. I mean, shocked.

Joe 16:46

This was how I felt after I finished. I was like, oh, that was silly. I should not have done that.

Joshie 16:51

Well, I'm wondering whether, as a podiatrist, do you sort of think I can grant myself a bit more latitude than I otherwise would because I kind of know what I'm in for and I know what I'm dealing with?

Joe 17:02

Yeah, I knew how to rehab anything that would have gone astray. Like I knew I knew the right shoes to wear, I knew the right socks. I didn't get blisters and stuff like that. Like footwear wasn't an issue. It was just too much running load in one day.

Joshie 17:14

Do you think it also helps with I mean I imagine that the vast majority or very high percentage of your clients are runners themselves? Do you think it sort of helps in terms of providing some relatable experience that, you know, you can tell them I've made the same mistakes that you do, I get it. And you can then sort of talk to them about, you know, the mindset of a runner and mental health-wise, what it is that they go through and why they make those decisions. Definitely.

Joe 17:38

And I think that's a great point. There's lots of reasons why people run, some of them really positive, others maybe not so positive. Um, and being able to, you know, do those longer events and having previous injuries myself, it's good to be able to relate to them. Um it's part of the reason I still do those longer runs because I get a lot of those type of clients. And like I like them personally doing the longer runs, but it's good to be able to know what they're going through because I think it's a lot more relatable and I think you maybe have that bit of authority and they take you a bit more seriously knowing that you've been through it as well, as opposed to here's my advice, but I'm not a runner.

Matty 18:09

Yeah. So you're always gonna I was gonna say you could flip that on its head as well in terms of yeah, it was a mistake, I I should have done more training, but at the same time as well, it provides like really, really good lessons for your vocation, for the work you do. Definitely. You know, like um you can you can relate to that, so you can take so much out of that.

Joshie 18:30

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's another data point. Yeah. Um now, Joe, you said that running played a role in inspiring you, sort of in this weird indirect way, to becoming a podiatrist. Um can you talk us through that experience and how your own injuries help shape your career path?

Joe 18:50

Yeah, so straight out of school, wanted to be a physio, didn't quite get a high enough um year 12 score, whatever it was called at the time, T R ATR. Um, ended up getting missing out by 0.3 of a percent. And I thought, I'll get a second round offer physio. Didn't and I was like, what the hell? So yeah, didn't get an offer at all. So did a fur did a year of like a health science course with thinking I'll use my GPA and just transfer the Euroba. It's pretty much the same courses, I'll just use that and swap over. Um coincidentally, through during that year, had a really bad shake case of shin splints, couldn't run for three months, couldn't walk for more than 12 minutes, which is how long it took me to get from home to uni and had to sit down. Went to a podiatrist, got orthotics, and within two weeks I was back running pain-free. And I was like, that was pretty cool. And it's kind of like physio, but it's foot physio. Um and so yeah, just the next year swapped over to podiatry and and that was that.

Joshie 19:38

Wow. I mean, you make it sound like it was all also seamless, but I imagine that there would be it probably wasn't quite as simple as as that.

Joe 19:46

Look, to be honest, it it kind of was that simple. I didn't put a lot of thought process into my I was only 19 at the time, so you know, I was like, oh, it's kind of cool. I like running, or thought it seemed kind of cool, I'm back running, let's just do that, give it a go. If it's no good, I'll just change something else. Because I always wanted to work in health. I just didn't know exactly where I thought it was physio. And I was living with physios that year as well, coincidentally. Um and they were doing a lot of neuroscience pain psychology stuff, and I didn't like that. I just wanted to go work with a sports team and do some calf rubs and stuff like that. So it wasn't quite what I thought physio was going to be. And so it all kind of came to a head then, and I just made the decision to change and and that was that.

Joshie 20:20

And as a podiatrist, uh lower leg issues is what you specialise in. And I imagine that uh overuse injuries are quite common themes in the work that you do. What can you tell us about some of the common complaints that you see in your practice?

Joe 20:39

Yeah, so definitely overuse injuries are the most common reason people come to a podiatry clinic or they get sort of foot ankle lower leg pain, just doing too much too soon. For whatever reason, that foot or that leg or that ankle can't handle the load being put through it, and then pain occurs. The most common things we see are plantar heel pain, plantar fasciopathy, um, so pain through heel or through the arch, achilles tendopathy, shin pain, stress fractures, whether that be through metatarsals or tibia. Um and then just things like tendinopathies. So whether it's you know a tip post tendopathy to the ankle, a perineal tendopathy, foot tendopathy, is just again too much load going through that area for that tendon to handle.

Joshie 21:16

The work that you do is and correct me if I'm wrong with any of this, but the work that you do is primarily centered around uh after the fact. So someone comes in when they're injured, they're in they're in pain, it's limit limiting them either in terms of their load or their performance. Um but then there's the other side which is around injury prevention. Is that a big focus or a focus for the work that you do?

Joe 21:43

It's definitely becoming more of a focus. I would say, you know, the majority of people come to see a health therapist, whether it's podiatry, physio, etc., because they are in pain. So the injuries already happened. Um but we do a lot in terms of injury prevention. Like I'm doing a a talk this Friday at a running club on Oscar Slatter, so knee pain, um, as an in injury prevention talk. So with the clubs we work with athletics clubs, running clubs, you know, football. Apple soccer clubs, we do try and be proactive there and go into give those talks at the start of the season or the start of you know the events or whatever it might be to make sure there's a less chance for that person getting injured. But yeah, the main reason people come and see us because injuries already occurred or they're in some sort of pain.

Joshie 22:21

I've been running myself for about four years or five years now. And one thing that I still struggle with, I mean, I'm pretty good at not pushing through pain. If I feel like I'm doing damage, then I'll stop. I'm not that stubborn or pig headed that I'll just persist at all costs. But the thing that I struggle with to this day, I still get injured. And I've like I say I've got an Achilles tendinopathy at the moment. The thing that I struggle with are the signals that let me know that something is potentially about to happen. I mean, what can you tell, I guess, runners from your experience that helps to, you know, whether it's body scan or pick up on signals that can guide you on whether you are potentially going down a pathway towards an injury?

Joe 23:05

So I think it depends on where the pain is and what the injury might be. Like a bony stress or a fracture injury is very different to how we treat like a tendopathy or a muscle issue. So if it's bony, a fracture, a stress fracture, you know, an overuse type thing, we want to reduce the amount of activity we're doing. And if it's a stress response or a fracture, we want to stop. So I'd say proof of those ones, we're not gonna run, we're gonna wait until it's healed up because bone's important. And if we go on to do more damage, it's just a longer time off running, right? With a tendopathy or a muscle maybe injury, we can run through low pain, maybe anything less than four out of ten, knowing that the tendon warms up a bit and we can get a bit of running through there, and knowing that that, you know, low-level pain's not gonna do too much damage. And we actually need to load the tendon too, so we can't stop running completely because the tendon gets weaker. So I think depending on what it is, kind of a nuanced approach to it. And if you're not really sure, um, a good system we use is like the traffic light system. So green light being zero to kind of three out of ten pain, anything in that range, safe to run. From say a four to a six, yellow traffic light, look, be mindful, might need to slow down, maybe think about stopping, depending on where you're at. And then anything six or above, obviously red light, stop too much pain, you know, reduce activity.

Joshie 24:15

Is it common though? Um, because with m my own experience, I noticed that there I didn't seem it didn't seem like there were any signals that I was doing damage. It was just randomly I woke up one day and I'm like, oh geez, the Achilles feels a bit tight. I mean, is that just the nature of the beast? Like depending, is that just the way that things like tendinopathies and other, you know, muscle related injuries manifest that you don't necessarily realize at the time that something bad is happening?

Joe 24:44

Look, sometimes I think without taking a thorough history of, you know, you and your tendon and that kind of thing, it's hard to give a definite answer. Um, I would say there's normally some sort of lead up. And whether it's purely running or exercise based, or whether it's maybe like insignificant, maybe you know, busier time on feet at work, which wasn't necessarily strenuous, but just more time on feet at work. Maybe we changed shoes, maybe we did a bit more gardening that weekend and then tried to run on Monday morning like that type of thing. So it can be a bit, I guess, insidious. Um, but there's normally something that's occurred that has made that pain happen. Sometimes it's just not very obvious.

Joshie 25:20

Do you find that there's this there's still a bit of a misconception in the running community that uh injured means full rest? Like it seems like active management is more of the um, you know, the the more recent science is sort of guiding towards active rehabilitation than just full rest. But I grew up, and I'm sure Maddie did as well, with you know, if if you're injured, you ice it and you rest it. Simple as that.

Joe 25:45

Yeah, definitely. Still definitely a common thought pattern in the running community. Um, but they don't listen to it anyway. So I don't know why they think that. Because they're like, oh, I know I should stop, but I don't do it. So like why do you why do you think that anyway? Um where where I think I think we've we've definitely moved towards active rehab. Like it's very rare for me to tell a runner to stop running completely. A lot of the time we'll just modify load, we'll do intervals, walk run intervals, something to kind of manage that load to keep them moving. Um, or we'll do a cross-training. So we might bike, ride, we might swim, we might use the elliptical, something to keep them moving. Um, only if it's very serious, like a bony injury, like a stress fracture or a stress response, where I'll say, look, we need to actually stop running for a little bit of time, just like this bone heel. But most of the time we can keep running relatively safely. Um, where I tend to find that people get told not to run is more so GPs that maybe just don't really know the way around the foot or lower limb, and they just say, just stop for me. I think it's just better if you just stop and see if it gets better.

Joshie 26:39

We had a um a a guest on the show a few weeks ago, and she, I don't know if it was uh the intended focus of the conversation at this particular consultation, but she happened to mention in passing to her GP that she was running, and the GP said, Oh, aren't you a bit too old to be running, or worse to that effect? Um and so it's not just the running community that seems to have these misconceptions. It seems like there's a lot of people even in the health profession that don't understand necessarily, you know, what the true risks are.

Joe 27:16

Yeah, I agree. And there's look, there's a lot of research coming out now in the last few years that running's not bad for your knees, not necessarily bad for your age. Um, I think sometimes people who work in health aren't the healthiest people themselves, and they give blanket advice on things and maybe don't know that much about. Like, you know, if you go to see the GP and they're maybe overweight and not the healthiest person, you saw them smoking outside before your appointment, and they tell you, oh, maybe you should stop running, you'd be well, mate, come on, like, help me out here. So I think just maybe don't take everything as a yeah, don't take everything as gospel. Maybe go and see someone in that health field that is tailored to what you want to do and kind of understands where you're coming from as a person.

Matty 27:56

I think the traffic light um method that you just explained before is um brilliant. I think that's something that I'd use because I I and I'm I'm getting on an age, but what happens, well what happens with me is I get niggles everywhere. Um, you know, and it might I might run tonight and I have a particular niggle, it's gone tomorrow. Is that what happens when you age? You do get niggles, you you, you know, it does hurt a little bit more here and there.

Joe 28:22

Yeah, definitely. And like we hate to use age as an excuse, right? Like, you know, you being a certain age isn't the reason everything's happening in your life, but it does play a role with anything physical. Um older injuries come back and kind of resurface. Maybe you had a sore back because you spent 40 years tiling and now you're kind of trying to run, and that kind of plays a bit of a role. Um, and also as we get older, things like tendons become more sensitive to pain. So something that maybe wasn't an issue five years ago. Now it's just a bit of a niggle, maybe a two out of ten. Nothing too crazy, not an injury per se. But it's just letting you know that hey, I just don't have that same elasticity or strength or movement that I had five years ago. And that's very normal too.

Joshie 29:01

Okay. One thing which I'm curious to explore, and I'm not sure if it necessarily comes up in your practice, and that's around helping runners manage mental health. Because I imagine if you have whether it's through a clinical observation or through a scan, if someone has uh, like you say, a stress fracture and having to tell them the news, especially if they're an endurance runner, hey, you can't run for, you know, six weeks or eight weeks or however long it is. Um is that something that you're either trained on or equipped to navigate is how to help clients manage the mental health side of things when they're given bad news?

Joe 29:42

Look, definitely not equipped for that at uni. Um you don't learn that in any lessons or any toots, unfortunately. And look, I don't pretend to be a mental health expert or that's not my scope of practice. I kind of leave that to the psychologists and sports psychologists, and I refer on if I think someone needs that extra support. Um but those conversations do come up right because you're the person that is helping that client in front of you try and run, and you've built that relationship with them over a few weeks or a few months or a few years, and you kind of know them well and they open up to you about certain things. I can definitely think of off the top of my head multiple clients who, you know, running is a big part of managing their mental health. They might have a very stressful family life, um, a very stressful job, type A personality, um, and they just need that kind of running outlet to manage that stress. And when they don't have that, things can turn pretty sour, pretty quick for them, um, and they don't really know how to kind of navigate that. And so if that is maybe becoming a bit more relevant, becoming a bit more an issue for them, there is a team that we use and you know, put them on certain people to go and have a chat with, and you know, we can liaise with them. Here's their running history up to now, here's their previous injuries, um, here's what they've said to me. Um, but knowing they're going to be in good hands and I can help support the physical running side, knowing their mental health is being cared for for someone else.

Joshie 30:51

Yeah. Yeah, that's fantastic. Because whether or not you're trained in it, it's a uh a clinical reality. That's what you do deal with each day. I mean, they're you're dealing with emotions, you're dealing with humans at the end of the day, and there's the the the clinical practice, the observational side of what you do, and then there's the human side, and they can't be um disaggregated. And I I think it's great that you at least acknowledge that and have a way of navigating it. Um you mentioned as well that you're uh is it an endorsed podiatrist. What does that give you that I guess a um standard podiatry doesn't?

Joe 31:30

Yes, I'm endorsed for scheduled medicines. And so I've done a bit of extra study for three and a half years outside of work um to be able to prescribe schedule two, three, four, and eight medications. So things like cortisone injections, um, antifungal tablets, antibiotics, anti-inflammatories, skin stuff. So yeah, being able to kind of be that next step at the next port of call without having to refer to maybe a GP or a sports doctor as as much to administer those things.

Joshie 31:57

Right. And uh is that essentially seen as a I guess a last resort after other l um conservative forms of treatment have been explored? Is that how it typically works?

Joe 32:10

Yeah, it depends on what it is. Like we try and not over-prescribe, right? Like not everyone that comes in is getting some sort of medication because that's not what we do. Um it kind of depends on where they're at, their pain and their goals too. A lot of the time I will do cortisone in maybe the first or second appointment, only because they've got either a run coming up or they're going on a holiday and they need to be able to get through that particular thing. And they just want something to that'll, you know, help them quite quickly to manage that pain. Um but if they're not in that boat and we've got a bit of time, maybe got a bit of time leading up to a marathon or an event, won't necessarily have to go down that path of you know the anti-inflammatories of the cortisones because we've got enough time to manage it conservatively.

Joshie 32:47

Yeah. Um we'll talk about your own running goals that are coming up shortly. But I guess if in terms of your your podiatry work, if you had to sort of have one key takeaway for runners, just like a message that they can leave with after listening to this chat today, um, what would it be just in terms of uh, you know, either one or two thing, key messages that you think we could adopt into either our training or just um strengthen conditioning practices?

Joe 33:14

Number one would be if you've had a niggle that's lasted more than two weeks, I would go and get it checked out. If it's maybe more than a four out of ten, it's been around for more than two weeks, it's not settling with rest or you know, the things you're trying to do, modifying your running load, changing shoes, whatever it might be, go and see someone. Because a lot of the time, if we get that injury coming in at the two-week period where it's a bit flared up, it's only a once two-week treatment to get it down most of the time. It's not this big long thing. Whereas if we leave it for four weeks, six weeks, eight weeks and keep trying to run through, it becomes a lot longer process. And then we do need to, I guess, do a lot more to manage that. So I think the sooner we can get on top of stuff, even if it's just for an assessment, you're a bit worried about something, you know, you're not sure what it might be, just go and get it checks just to make sure it's okay. And you save yourself a lot of headaches after.

Joshie 33:57

Now, look, you've got some ultras behind you, and as you mentioned before, an even bigger one coming up, the Adelaide 100K. Um I think you told me as well that you've committed to a, I think, a 12-month build or you got yourself a coach now. What can you tell us about your motivation for going all in for this one?

Joe 34:17

Yeah, so I learned my lesson from the 70k where I didn't have a coach, didn't do any training, and just gritted it out. So that was, you know, a good learning curve for me. So yeah. Opposite this time, 12-month lead-in time, got a coach, doing it properly, you know, running really well, no aches or pains at the moment's touch wood. So it's it's going really well. Um, what motivated me to do it? I'd love to have some inspiring story, but it's mainly just I felt like I was living off that 70K event from three years ago, you know, still talking about it with my clients, I'm still using it to relate to them. But it was three years ago. Like you're only as good as kind of what you're doing now. And I thought, well, I probably should do another ultra. And I can't do a 70k because I've done that. So I better just not be a pussy into 100Ks. And 100k sounds good, like it's a good number, it's round. So as like it's like a nice thing to say. And so that was it. That was the whole thought process.

Matty 35:00

When you break it down, like when when you're gonna run that, so you run a 70. You basically, once you hit 70, you like the mindset and the thinking is I've got another 30. Yeah.

Joe 35:12

How do you cope with that? I don't know. I don't know. I'll let you know after I talk about it's gonna be a big mental. It's gonna be a big mental game. It's a long time to be alone with yourself, too. I remember doing the 70k, it took me just over 13 hours. Um, and I remember you for a long part of that, you're running by yourself, right? Because it's just, you know, you're on your own, on your own pace. Um, the thoughts that would come up, because like, you know, phone dies, headphones die, eventually you're just thinking and you're running and just thinking. And the thoughts that come up were just like stuff I hadn't thought about for like years. I'd have thought, like, oh, why did my girlfriend break up with me in year five? Why didn't she like me? And I was like, what is happening? Like, I was like, where am I mentally right now? I was like, what is going on? So like you go to a very different place. So I don't know whether I'm looking forward to that again. Hopefully it's a bit of a better better place this time. Um, but I'm looking forward to the challenge. I think you're never the same person on the other side of a big run than you were going in. So I like the idea of that.

Joshie 36:03

So do you find that at all confronting? I mean, the more training that you do, eventually there'll be times when you haven't got the headphones or the phone that's working, like you say, you probably would have long died. I mean, is that something that you're prepared for, or are you just gonna let the mind go wherever it goes? I don't think I have a choice. It's like it's gonna happen, right?

Joe 36:20

But I I'm a bit of a I'm a bit of a a cruel beast. So I'll do a lot of runs now, no headphones. I've got a I've got a treadmill just over here um in my shed that are just to the right of me and it just faces a steel wall. Yeah. And sometimes I was running there for like an hour and a half, no headphones, just stare at the wall, just like like what's gonna happen today. Just to like just to prepare, because I know what's gonna happen. Um and so I try and kind of simulate a bit of that. Not all the time, sometimes I'll listen to a podcast, and that's that's quite nice. Um, but I know it's gonna come, so I try and prepare as much as I can.

Joshie 36:50

There's a runner in the local community here called Wayne Speace, and he's run a number of endurance events. I think he won or podiumed at Comrades in South Africa. Uh he's a fantastic runner, but he talks about training the brain for boredom. So there's a 1k loop that I think he will do 30 times over as part of a long run. So rather than doing a 30 or 15k out and back, he'll just spend you know hours running a 1k lake lake circuit multiple times. Um, is that part of your motivation for staring at a tr at a wall whilst on a treadmill to sort of help the brain become accustomed to boredom? Because you're about to embark on a 100k event and nearly all of that's gonna be on your own.

Joe 37:36

Yeah, I don't know. I think like I wouldn't compare myself to him. I think he's probably a lot more mentally resilient and tough than I am. But part of it, like you've got to train for the conditions, right? Um it I'm just thinking back to I grew up on a farm in the the country of South Australia and we had an 800-meter loop around the farm, so like a dirt track, and I used to run that just all the time, just run around, no music, just run. Didn't have any music back then back then. Um but I'm I'm kind of just used to doing those little loops. Like even this morning I ran a 1k loop nine times. Like I just kind of used to doing that. And I don't think it's being intentional, I think it's just what I've kind of grown up doing.

Joshie 38:08

Yeah. I mean that's gonna set you in hold you in really good stead for the hundredk. I mean, if you're comfortable you know, I guess being bored whilst running and having the mind just go wherever it needs to go. Uh sounds like you're also quite happy to run without music and run on your own. Um, they're they're probably good building blocks for being able to to embark on the ultra.

Joe 38:32

I hope so. I'll let you know. I probably hate it for the whole time, be like, wow, that was a terrible strategy.

Joshie 38:37

What month is it? I think you did say before. Uh July, July 11th. Still got a bit of time. All right. Look, Joe, in order to lessen the impact on your family, and I say that because you've got, I think, a wife and one, you've got a son, is it a two-year-old? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's almost two. Yep. Uh and you're self-employed, so you've got your own uh podiatry practice, uh, you're, you know, committing to some endurance events, which I think is fantastic. And I think you've sort of talked about ways to have some kind of balance. You know, you'll typically be running quite early at like four or four thirty in the morning or after eight o'clock in the evening. Um, do you feel like you've nailed the balance between self-employment family and your own running goals, or is that an ongoing work in progress for you?

Joe 39:19

Absolutely have not nailed that. I'm not if I ever will. I hope so one day. You know, every every week gets closer. But uh no, I'm very fortunate to have a really amazing wife who's very supportive of not only my running goals and the business goals and just you know, me as a person. So yeah, I try and run before our son Patrick gets up. It's normally kind of 5, 5.30-ish to get, depending on the length of the run, to get it in before he wakes up. Um if that doesn't happen, I'll run after he goes to bed, normally after 8.30. And so try and fit it around there. And then yeah, I work quite a bit as well. So obviously, when you have your own business, work comes home a lot of the time with you, so there'll be a lot of work after hours. Um, but she's great, she's supportive, and I wouldn't be able to do things I do without her, so very fortunate. Yeah, that's awesome.

Joshie 40:02

When you set aside races, paces, personal goals, um, Instagram highlights, and by the way, Joe, you've uh your Instagram uh reels and accounts are fantastic. I encourage everyone to check it out. We'll put those details in the show notes. Um but when you take away all of that, what would you say running gives to you now?

Joe 40:23

Running gives me a lot, to be honest. Um look with obviously a busy business life, busy home life, busy family, um, it gives me that time to myself to be able to think and you know, think about the day and you know, maybe there's a future planning and work through problems or whatever it might be in my head, which is great. Um gives me that stress relief too. So I always feel better after a run. You know, I can only think of one run where I ever didn't feel good afterwards and I had the flu. So that's probably why I didn't feel good. Um so you always feel better after your run. So it gives me that kind of mental clarity too. And I think it's character building. Like a conversation I have with a lot of my runners still as clients is not every run feels good. Like even my runs now, I'm like, I don't want to do that. Didn't feel that good. Um, you know, very rarely do I feel great the whole run. There's always an element of a wind or a hill or something I didn't enjoy about that particular run. And so it's good character building to know that I went out and did that hard thing and that even though I'm busy, and maybe some days I've got an excuse not to go and do those things, I'm I'm still getting it done and just trying to be a better person and grow, you know, grow in that way.

Joshie 41:19

I think that's fantastic. There's a lot, and you and I spoke about this before. Uh, there's a lot of what you see on social media that gives a false impression that everyone's loving their runs and nailing all of their goals. But the the reality is a lot of us struggle to even show up. Um I think it's really good that you're sort of even as a someone that's experienced in the industry, that you're able to sort of talk so honestly and say, Yeah, but some runs do just suck and that's okay. Yeah.

Joe 41:46

Yep. Some days you just don't have it. So is what it is.

Matty 41:50

Yeah. It's important to hear that too, because you have a look on Strava and you think, oh, everyone's running so well. Um, you know, running long distances, probably loving it. You know, my runs are hard and I want to stop. And so to hear that from someone who is like working with runners is absolutely brilliant. Yeah.

Joe 42:08

Um social media is definitely not all it's cracked up to be. There's definitely a few uh, I would say false times, a few watch stops that don't get added in there, a few things like that. So yeah, I think just be careful of what you you see on social media and what you you feel bad about because it's not always reality.

Joshie 42:23

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're certainly preaching to the choir here. I think Maddie and I, in particular, Maddie's quite honest on his striver when he's had a not so good around his not one day. Um Joe, thanks so much for taking the time to join us on Run Believable. I know that our listeners really, really appreciate your insights and we sincerely wish you the best of luck with your running goals, especially the upcoming 100k Ultra. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you.

Joe 42:49

Thanks.

Joshie 42:50

Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. Thanks very much. Thanks, Joe. Maddie, how do you think that you'd go if your headphones and phone died on a long run in the wilderness?

Matty 42:59

Do you know what? My headphones died on at Gold Coast Marathon last year, three minutes into the uh three K into the run. Right. Um so I ran the other, what, 18k um with no headphones. Um and most of my most of my races now are run with no headphones. So yeah. I don't know if I'd want to do a hundred K run in the bush on trails and my phone dies. You know what would happen then.

Joshie 43:26

I get a sense, Steve. That uh screen of DNA. I was gonna say that if that scratch of the eyelash is anything to go by, imagine if you'd like if the phone died. Uh look, that's it for today, folks. If you've got a unbelievable story of your own, we'd truly love to hear it. And if you'd like to be a guest on the show, then hit us up. Finally, this podcast relies on your continued support. So if you can please take the time to follow rate and share it with your running mates, we'd really appreciate it, and we'll see you for the next unbelievable adventure.