Ep 24: Who Needs Strava...? Brett Petersen’s 1994 Running Spreadsheet

Brett Petersen has been logging every single exercise session since 1994. Yup, madness!

Long before Strava and smartwatches existed, Brett opened a spreadsheet and started tracking his runs. Three decades later, the streak continues.

In this episode of Runbelievable, Joshie and Natty (yes, you read correctly) sit down with Brett to unpack a lifetime shaped by running. From sprinting 2k home from kindergarten as a 5-year old (his poor Mum) to running a 16:24 5k in the Olympic Day Run, Brett’s story is one of quiet dedication rather than chasing headlines.

Along the way he’s battled glandular fever, bronchitis, cold-air asthma, and injuries that forced him to rethink how and when he runs. Through it all, running has remained a constant; especially during the toughest period of his life when his wife Nicole was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2020.

Now Brett 2.0 continues to challenge himself with charity events, ultra-distance relays, and new goals... including the Masters Games in 2027.

Brett's happy to connect via Instagram: 

https://www.instagram.com/everydaywarriorbrett/

In this episode

• How Chariots of Fire sparked a love for running
• Tracking every run since 1994
• Why a 50% deduction is applied to walking
• Illness setbacks including glandular fever and asthma
• Why winter running outdoors has become impossible
• Chasing a 120k ultra before turning 60

Runbelievable — real runners, unreal stories.

Interested in being a guest on the show? Hit us up!

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Transcript

Intro

Brett 0:07

My goal was to crack 20 minutes for the 5k list. So I achieved that in the 5,000 on the track. It was 1935. And you quickly reminded me, you quickly told me that yours was 1932, wasn't it?

Joshie 0:20

I was pretty quick to point out that I think I had you covered by a handful of seconds.

Brett 0:23

Yeah, this is middle-aged male ego. It's pretty sad, isn't it?

Joshie 0:30

Hello everybody and welcome to Run Believable, the podcast that celebrates the human side of running. I'm your host, Josh Christian, and I'm here to bring you stories of grit, glory, and overcoming adversity. Each episode we'll dive deep into what first got people running and what keeps them lacing up day after day. From the last and the lessons to buying shoes you've never tested, this is why we run and how it shapes who we become. And coming up in a few moments, you'll meet a runner who's arguably inspired as Drava with his multidimensional, multi-generational record keeping. If you think that Microsoft has done a good job evolving from Windows 3.1, well, wait till you hear what this guy's done. Natty, welcome back.

Natty 1:12

Hey Joshy.

Joshie 1:14

That's right, I said Natty. Rest assured, folks, it's not Maddie on HRT. Today I've welcomed back episode 15 guest and longtime fan of myself, Nat Rishan, to fill Maddie's oversized shoes as he embarks on the next steps in his car washing business. Natty, thanks for stepping in.

Natty 1:34

No problem, Shoshi. Pleasure to be here.

Joshie 1:36

How's the hip going? And just for a bit of context, I think it was no sooner had we interviewed you for episode 15 that it all went to poo with your running. You're sort of starting to come back after I think an eight-week layoff or thereabouts.

Natty 1:50

Yes. So earlier on in the year I tore my TFL. Um and it was a deep tear. So uh no running for eight weeks. The first four weeks, I was all right with that, but gradually I've started to get a bit antsy. And um, yeah, just last week um my physio, Nick, hello Nick, um, has said that I could do a bit of a run walk, but I may have overdone it on Tuesday because it's a little bit tender at the moment. So slow, slow comeback, but hoping that everything will be all right soon.

Runbelievable Rundown

Why Women Are 18.61% Better Runners Than Men

Joshie 2:28

Well, the only way is up, Nadi, and we wish you the best of luck as you return from quite a lengthy layoff. Now, let's get stuck into the unbelievable rundown and just a reminder that this section's all about mishaps, adventures, little winds, crazy sights and sounds, the kind of stuff that really humanises the running experience. Now, I recently stumbled across a Danish research paper entitled Women Are Better Runners Than Men. Now, Nadia, it's no secret that I like both runners and women. I'm even married to one. So my curious brain went down quite the rabbit warren, especially when I saw the headline statistic, and you're gonna love this, that women are 18.61% better runners than men.

Natty 3:11

I could have told you that.

Joshie 3:14

But how on earth did they measure this? I'm really glad you asked. So, what happened is the researchers compared first half versus second half splits for marathons. Now, they collected data across nearly two million competitors across 131 marathons. Now the research found that whilst all marathoners were positive split, well, on average, there's a positive split, no surprises there, that women had a rough uh sorry, women had roughly an 11% delta, that is 11% increase in time between the first and second half of a marathon, whereas men, it was a 14%. So they were 14% slower between their first and second half. Make of that what you will. What do you think?

Natty 4:06

Do you think they've got better psychological endurance than men, perhaps? And that's what we're doing.

Quiz Time: Female Marathoners

Joshie 4:11

I like the way how you ask that as a qu as a question. When a statement has a question mark, I love it. Um look, I'll be honest, I haven't dug deep into the research, I think. In terms of what inference can be drawn from it, I'm not entirely sure, but I did find it particularly interesting that women are stronger in the second half of marathons than what men are. Now, that of course lends itself to a quiz topic. Female runners. Now, Natty, you've got a job to do Maddie Proud today. As you know, he was off to a flyer in the first few episodes, the last few episodes, he's really bombed. Um, no coincidence um between that and the fact that he's not here today. Um so you have an opportunity to really, really show him up. Now, I've picked out a couple of interesting stats from this Danish re uh Danish research paper. And to make things easy, or should I say, easier for you, Natty, they're all true or false. Are you ready?

Natty 5:13

Well, I don't know, because you know what my rate is with true or false quizzes. Um, it's not great.

Joshie 5:20

No, you could you could uh like toss a coin 50 times and there'd be tails every time.

Natty 5:26

Pretty much.

Joshie 5:27

Well, let's see how we go. Question number one. Yeah. True or false. This is based on this Danish research paper. That on average, during a marathon, women are slower in the first five Ks than the second five Ks.

Natty 5:43

True.

Joshie 5:45

You are correct. Now, the the actual research paper went into some explanation or tried to do some inference for why that might be the case. Now, uh, what do you think would be uh a reason for that?

Natty 6:01

Maybe conserving energy. Um there's a few factors.

Joshie 6:07

What the paper actually drew out as a potential inference is that there's a lot of congestion during the first five Ks of a marathon. And so it takes a while to actually find a rhythm. So and by the way, that wasn't just for women, men as well, were also slower in the first five K's and the second five K. Question number two. The rate of increase in uh female marathoners, that is participation at marathons, so the rate of increase over the last 10 years is higher than men.

Natty 6:39

True.

Joshie 6:40

It is true. But the rate of increase in female participation, and this was up until 2024, I believe, was nearly 54% more than what men. So I don't know if it's yet happened, but the they estimated that it was perhaps only a number of years away, a few years away, until there would be a 50-50 split between female and male participation at marathons, which is fantastic. Two from two, she's on fire. Question number three. Across the study. So remember, nearly two million competitors, 131 marathons. The fastest female, and this is on average, the average fastest female marathon age is 24. False. It's actually true. Oh wow. I was staggered by that. Uh I would have thought much older. And to come to give you a comparison, do you want to have a guess at what the average male, uh the fastest average male age was? 36. Oh, you're so close. You almost deserve a point for that, 38.

Natty 7:45

There you go.

Guest Spotlight: Brett Petersen

Joshie 7:46

Isn't that fascinating? Well, I find it fascinating. Um look, uh folks, we're having so much fun sharing stories about how running shapes who we become. And I guess if you're listening along, then you must be as well. Or perhaps you're in the 14.5% of people that skip straight to the guest, in which case you'll have no idea about the stat that you have just created. Anyhow. If you are enjoying the podcast, then we would sincerely appreciate it if you shared a story or two with some of your running mates. My goodness, what a fucking word salad that that was. Today's guest has been logging every exercise session since Paul Keating was Prime Minister. Yep, not only was Strava not even a pipe dream back then, the Humble Spreadsheet was still in its infancy. Despite being disciplined in record keeping, his story isn't about chasing accolades or headlines. It's about commitment, resilience, and finding purpose in movement. Can we please welcome Brett Peterson? Welcome, Brett. Oh, thanks very much, Josh. Hi, Nat. You grew up in Tamworth and have been running home from gin from kindergarten since you were five. I should add that you're no longer in kindergarten, by the way. But what what is it that drew you to running so early on in your life?

Brett 9:04

Yeah, I remember I l we lived in um uh Randwick in Sydney until I was about seven. And I remember one day my mum was in kindergarten, my mum was a bit late to pick me up, so I decided I'd run home. And I was about two Ks through pretty busy traffic. And um and I don't know, I just enjoyed the feeling. I do actually recall the only thing I recall was enjoying the feeling. I was maybe a tiny bit anxious that she was a bit late to pick me up, but um mum didn't find me until I was almost home. So she was driving around the streets and uh she found me when I was almost home. So that's what sort of my first memory of uh of running. And um, yeah, I sort of haven't stopped since.

Joshie 9:47

It's quite incredible to think that something like that in this day and age couldn't happen. Um, you know, firstly because of such tight regulation um and you know compliance and policies, but also um, yeah, we have ways that we can easily track people down. I mean, how anxiety provoking for your for your mum? Can you remember what it was supposed to be like? Oh, she was in tears.

Brett 10:07

Oh yeah, she was in tears. Yeah, she was yeah. So then um then uh just talking about first memories of um of running, and then a couple of years later, uh living in Tamworth, and I think I hadn't stopped running, I was just constantly running all the time, and I was in um played soccer at a very early age. So I remember Chariot Sophia came out at the movies, and it was the one and only time my mum actually took me out of school and took me to that movie uh when it came out when I was about nine years old, and uh and then she let me run home afterwards, which was about 5k run home. So yeah, it was different times back then, that's for sure.

Joshie 10:44

So be honest, uh running uh 5Ks after seeing that movie, did you try and run in slow motion? Classic.

Brett 10:53

Well, there's no beaches nearby in Tamworth, that's for sure. No, that's where I could run on that.

Joshie 10:59

That that beach scene's an absolute classic. Isn't it just yeah? Um now look, you've kept a spreadsheet of by the way, if any of these facts are wrong, correct me. Yeah, yeah, sure. You've kept a spreadsheet of every exercise session since 1994.

Brett 11:14

Yeah, is that correct? Uh I look, there are a couple of gaps. I I noticed there was a gap in 1995. There was a few months there where I I had a gap there, so where I wasn't recording anything.

Joshie 11:26

Um what does yeah, I guess um tracking, I mean you you didn't have apps to compare with. What was it that motivated you to start tracking your sessions?

Brett 11:39

So I knew how to use Excel in the 80s, um, and because my dad ran um Apple Macintosh summer schools and and courses on computer school uh computers in the 80s. So and I'd always go along to those um and I'd actually help out as well. So even as a kid, I was really into computers and stuff. So um I don't know, it's just that whole data and that analytical mind, I guess. Um, and yeah, I just wanted to record what I was doing and be able to track my progress um in the type of exercise I was doing. So that was sort of what drew it drew me to it, if you like. Um and yeah, I've sort of been doing it ever since. And sometimes I'd uh write stuff in exercise books, and then I went through an act a task of transposing all those exercise books into the spreadsheet. Um so yeah, it's a sort of a labor of love and a bit of fun.

Natty 12:33

Yeah. Sort of what metrics did you capture, Brett, in your spreadsheet?

Brett 12:37

That's a good question. It's pretty loose and it sort of evolved over time. So um to start with, it was what exercises I did um and how long my exercise sessions were. Um so and then it sort of built, um grew over time so that I had like metadata attached to certain metrics. And so, for example, at the moment, um I track how much time I spend doing exercise, but I also have a like a discounted rate. So if I do like a vigorous walk, then I discount that by 50% because I don't believe that walking, I kind of yeah, so I get quite, I sort of get signed.

Joshie 13:21

It sounds terrible, doesn't it? I sound quite ACD. I don't know. Yeah, I think 50% of our listeners are walkers for the Yeah, let's move on.

Brett 13:28

Oh discounting it. Yeah, walking is such an awesome activity, by the way. I absolutely love walking. So uh yeah, um, and it's fantastic. But yeah, certain certain things I do, I sort of apply a bit of a uh a metric against that, so it's not just pure time, it's trying to get perceived effort on an equal basis. And now I use things like Strava, although having said that, I haven't used Strava much in the past few months. Um, but I will have been using it. I do use it for when I'm doing different runs or I want to track different metrics. Um, but it I can record everything in my spreadsheet, so um that's the most important thing. But yeah, so yeah, so so I suppose I've got a year, I've got it like a tab or a work page for every year, and then I've got columns that mark um different categories. So, you know, the different category and the categories will change over time. So, like I'll give you an example. At the moment, I track the seconds that I do planks. So um, so every second, so for example, last year I can look here and I can say last year I did 8,920 seconds doing planks. So um, and then what I'll do is I'll gamify it because every year I want to do the I want to do something more than I did the prior year. So now if I wanted to pick planks, I go, right, oh well, I've just got to do 9,000 seconds of planks this year, and then I'll schedule it so that I make sure that I achieve that goal. So that uh yeah, anyway.

Joshie 14:55

That's uh I love it. Bit of fun. Yeah, yeah, I'd tell it, tell you what, it sounds like Strava's perhaps drawn a lot of inspiration from your spreadsheeting skills. Um now uh you and I actually uh met back in 2007. Can you believe that nearly 20 years ago? Um we we ended up working for the same employer, but not at the same time. But one thing that we did do together a long time ago was uh an endurance cycling event called the Hartley Challenge. And gosh, I'm gonna have to try and dig out a photo of you and I um from yeah from from that experience. And so i I guess what I didn't realise back then, I mean, you'd been running on and off since your your childhood, you're uh into cycling, um quite um I'm gonna make a hash of this word, but multidisciplinary. So it seems as though you've been able to apply yourself to a number of different um a number of different sports, which is fantastic. Now, your um you describe yourself as, I guess, an everyday uh warrior, and you have to correct me if I'm wrong, but your uh Instagram handle is everyday warrior Brett. Is that correct?

Brett 15:59

Yes, that's it.

Joshie 15:59

Yeah, yeah. Um and you've got some absolutely fantastic content on there. Brett goes around talking to everyday people about what motivates them to exercise really short snippets that are just um yeah, just fantastic. I love it. Oh, thanks. Um but one thing in particular that I'm keen to explore uh and correct me if I'm wrong, but back in 1996, running was a big feature of your life, and I think you ran a 1624 for 5k.

Brett 16:25

Yeah, well that's what my spreadsheet tells me.

Joshie 16:28

Which is rapid. Um now that's I think saw you finishing uh fourth in was it the Olympic Day run? Olympic day fun run or something like that.

Brett 16:39

Yeah, it was the Olympic Day fun run. I've actually had it um, I've actually had a look for it online and I haven't been able to find it. Um but I do have the certificate that I got for that um packed away in the garage somewhere. Um so yeah, so that was my that's my fastest um, well my fastest recorded 5k time. Um it did used to sort of run around pretty re relatively quickly back then. Um and I didn't do a lot of like I did do a lot of running, but I didn't do a lot of training. So like I, you know, I just um go for a couple of runs a week. So I suppose I was sort of naturally, naturally quick. Um, and certainly at school, but I was never the fastest kid at school. Um, there was always one one kid, Phil, who was always always beat me. I don't think I ever beat him. So I wasn't even the fastest kid at my school. But um, yeah, yeah. It's um yeah, that was definitely that was I'll call that Brett 1.0. Um and then when I started running again um when COVID started uh in 2020, that's Brett 2.0 because I'll never match the times that I did back then. Um but yeah, I can compare myself to when I started again in 2020.

Joshie 17:48

You want to know something, Brett? It's really interesting. We've spoken to a few people that have been able to run really fast, really quick in their youth. Yep, but it's not they're not the times that mean the most to them or the performances that mean the most to them. And maybe it's you know, perhaps at the time you just don't realise how incredible it is to be able to run that that quickly. I mean, do you reflect back now on that on your fastest 5k and think, geez, in hindsight that was incredible? Or were you aware at the time uh just how big an achievement it was to be able to run like that?

Brett 18:23

Um, I was pretty blase, I I guess, because I wasn't doing many events, so I didn't really do very many events, and there wasn't that many events on either, to be perfectly honest. So uh not like today with Park Run and that type of thing. But you do raise a really good point, and it's a bit of a a bit of a beef that like you see the term PB. Well, to me, personal best is subjective, so it's what you define as being your best run, and it doesn't have to be the fastest run at all. Um whereas PR is really the true term, so it's your personal record, and that's an objective term based on your time. And I know the Americans use the term PR and it's used in the Olympics and that type of thing. Um, so yeah, you see on park run it says your PB. Well, my fastest time isn't my best time at all. My best time might have been a different um event that I did with someone and sharing an experience with someone.

Joshie 19:15

So it's not just semantics, Brett. I actually thought that one was like a North American expression and or European and the other was an uh an Australian expression. Yeah, I think it is. I think it is just that.

Brett 19:26

But uh I'm defining my own PB as something different, that's all. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're exactly right. So I suppose that's the point is um that that that time that I did then isn't my favourite run. Yeah. Um, yeah, I I do have runs that I've really enjoyed a lot more um that I'd call my PB, but that was definitely my PR for that for that 5k. Yeah.

Joshie 19:50

Well, we'll explore some of your running achievements a little bit later on. But one thing I really want to explore, you describe yourself as a hybrid athlete. Are you happy to take some time to explain what that actually means?

Brett 20:03

Yeah, so I suppose it's partly my own definition. Um, and it's partly sort of what I've picked up from when you see high rocks and that type, those types of events, they call them hybrid racing. So, in a sense, it's running and doing other stuff in its most simplest terms. So, and I think high rocks is like the classic example um of hybrid, hybrid running, so or hybrid events. So that's where with high rocks you do a 1k run and then you do a station, and that station, the then you do eight different stations, and those stations include things such as rowing and uh the ski erg and farmers carry and that type of thing. And in in between each station, you do a one kilometer run. So it's eight kilometres of running and eight stations. Um, and then there's other events such as OCR, so that's obstacle course racing, Spartan, that type of thing. They're all considered hybrid events where you're doing running and you're doing other stuff as well. So that's sort of that very sort of broad, loose definition of um of hybrid. Um, so yeah, and I enjoy doing other stuff, um, included in my running. So I did a high rock with my daughter last year, which I absolutely loved, and it was just a wonderful experience to do together. Unfortunately, she's taught a meniscus, so we won't be doing that together this year. Um, so yeah, so I've taken up um javelin and discus instead. Um, so my coach says most people have most people have retired from these sort of events by at 54 years old, but you're starting at 54 years old. And uh yeah, so I like to take on new challenges and my time my distances at the moment with those are the equivalent of uh um well, I've got 12-year-old kids beating me um in the distances for those. So I looked at I looked at the distances they do at events, um, and I'd come dead like dead last by a mile at the moment. Um but anyway, it's a bit of an 18 month project that I've got. So um, I'll see how I go with that.

Natty 21:56

Um of all the disciplines that you participate in, Brett, which one's your favorite?

Brett 22:01

Oh wow, what a great question. Oh I I I enjoyed the variety, I guess. Um, because I did I've done so many different things. Um, sort of done mountain bike racing and road cycling and triathlons and um so I enjoy the chopping and changing, I will admit. I always come back to running though, and I'm mindful that this is actually a running podcast, running based podcast. So I do go as you've noticed, I do go down rabbit orrens and go to go on tangents. Um yeah. Uh but yeah, running's been the the consistent um activity that I've always come back to. So where I had sort of gone off deviated from running, um, like soccer and cricket and tennis and skateboarding and all the different things. Um, you know, I played water polo, um, I've just done so many different things, but running's been that one consistent uh activity that I've always come back to. And a lot of the activities I have done have involved running. So I suppose running in its simplest form, and in particular, trail running. I love trail running and being in Canberra, it's really easy for me. A couple of hundred metres away, I've got trails. So um I can do most of my training on trails. I love being in nature, I love the softness of the surface um in terms of the joints and stuff. Being an over 50s um athlete, I really enjoy uh running out in nature and stuff. So that's probably trail running would is probably the the the long way to to sort of um reach that that answer. Yeah.

Joshie 23:33

Your not just running journey, but your sporting journey hasn't been without its uh challenges. You've dealt with um, and this is all in adult life, you've dealt with glandular fever, bronchitis, I think cold air, asthma. Yep how how how hard have you found it to accept some of the physical limitations you have?

Brett 23:54

Yeah. Um, yeah, I've had a bit of a think about this. It's it has been tough. So 2010, I um got chronic fatigue, which was tied into some mental health challenges and um uh yeah, so cold-air-induced asthma caused by um bronchitis and other um uh lung some lung challenges, um, in lung infections, etc. Um, and since then I've had to um, and then there was one period, so that was a period in my life that was about six months and lasted about 18 months in total, where I just had to completely readjust. So every time I'd go out exercising, I'd collapse in a heap and I'd spend days in bed. So I almost had to rebuild myself and and and do things very differently. Um, and and I've done that ever since. So, for example, um I got COVID for the first time in November, so only a few months ago, and I I couldn't exercise for a whole month. And then I came back and I was fine until about the middle of January. And then I it's like a long COVID type thing, tied into the chronic fatigue issues, and then uh I collapsed in a heap again, and I've sort of come back into exercising again, um, but just being a lot more careful. So uh what I mean by more careful is I'm spending, like for example, I was I slept for 10 hours last night. Um, I'm spending between 9 and 11 hours in bed every 24 hours. Um, and probably quite different to a lot of people. One of the things that has changed a lot since 2010 is that um a lot of people say they get energized when they do exercise in the morning before work. Well, I can't do that, so I actually get really drained and tired if I exercise in the morning and I need a nap in the afternoon. So I think I'd fall asleep at my desk if I did too much exercise in the morning. So I have to do my exercise after work. Um and it can be, you know, in the middle of summer, it can be pretty hot here. So, but um, yeah, so I get good heat adaption um and and and all the benefits associated with that uh raining in 35 degrees um after work. But um, yeah, so I really have to change the way that I do things and I do need a lot of rest. So if I don't get nine hours sleep in a night, uh I can feel hung over, like when I used to go out drinking and partying all night when I was in my 20s, and you'd be really hung over the next day. I can feel like that off seven hours of sleep uh the next day. So um, and that's something that I just have to live with now. Um, I've got an incredibly understanding wife who is um, you know, really enables me to do the things that I want to and need feel like I need to do, like my exercise and and balance that out at the times that I need to. So um, so for example, park runs, um, that's in the morning. So in the afternoon, I have to have a rest um of one to two hours um because I hit the wall. So my eyes start stinging, um, I feel really lethargic. If I try and beat it off with um caffeine, which often works, um, then I can start to get a sore throat. And then uh I can be if I don't address it early and listen to the early warning signs, um, then I can be out of action for several days off sick, off sick from work, just lying in bed. And it seems ridiculous doing a like a 5K park run can have that impact, but it does. And um, so I've just had to learn to adapt um to that and change my life and work around it.

Joshie 27:23

Living in Canberra's challenging in terms of uh climate. I mean, it has four distinct seasons, but it also has quite a variation between the heat, dry heat of summer and incredibly cold nights and even daytime during winter. Now, from what you told me, winter in particular presents a challenge for you being able to exercise outdoors that you found a very low tolerance for being able to exercise when the temperature drops below, I think, 14 or 15 degrees. Is that correct?

Brett 27:56

Yeah, that's right. So in winter I can't run outside. So um basically from the end of May um till the end of August. There's sort of a three months where a handful of times I can. So I'll get out if I can, but it's rarely the maximum degrees rarely gets to 15, uh, 15 or above. And that's sort of the threshold, if you like. Um, below that, and I start to feel the impact on my lungs. Um, and then you know, I can get um I can get sick from that quite easily. And and even when I do go outside, I have to be pretty rugged up so I can get really hot really quickly, but I can't I can't strip my clothes off. I need to keep them on, so um, keep the layers on. So then I'll switch to the treadmill. Um I know you I know that's dread the the the dreaded treadmill that Yeah, I'm another fan. I remember you saying that, it made me laugh.

Natty 28:46

Um Yeah, I can't do it.

Brett 28:48

Yeah. Um so well, you're lucky where you are. You don't sort of or in a sense, you don't have to, I guess. No.

Joshie 28:57

No, yeah, it's um the the only time it it'd perhaps more so be for extreme wet weather. I mean, we've had a really dry summer, but I do know that there are times when the summers here are so wet that people don't want to get their shoes messed up, so they'll just run on run on the treadmill of the talking, you know, ankle deep watering. In fact, there are times when it's been that wet here that even just running a 5k around home, you're having to do these you know little 200, 400 metre out and backs. It just becomes quite frustrating if you want to get a a decent run in. I wouldn't mind exploring uh 2020 for you, Brett. Now, 2020 was a challenging year for the world, um, but it was sort of you had this added challenge, I think, with um with your wife being diagnosed with with breast cancer um and running, I think became a hu uh a big outlet for you during that time. What can you tell us about what life was like for you back then and how you navigated that period?

Brett 29:55

Yeah, so it was we went from such a high to such a low, I guess. So like November 2019, we went and saw you two in Sydney, and then in January we went to the Australian Open Tennis. So Nicole's a um was a great tennis player. Um she's got boxes full of trophies in the garage, and she just wanted to throw them away, and I wouldn't let her. I said, No way, I'd be so proud if I were you. And she just she's very blasé about it. Um so we used to play tennis when we're first going out, and um, she'd do the you know the jumping double hand backhand shots and she'd be smashing it all over the court, and I'd but I was fit, so I was no skills, but I could I could just reach the ball and just hit it back. So we could have some rallies where she'd have me running all over the court. Um, yeah, uh, but yeah, so um, and then yeah, we went to Australia and Open Tennis, which was absolutely awesome. And then that was January 2020, and then COVID, and then the the dreaded COVID hit um in February. She was also diagnosed with stage three breast cancer. So treatment was a real challenge in the hospitals and stuff at that time. Um, and yeah, it was just a really dark time for us. So we went from such a high doing all these wonderful events to such a low. Um, and yeah, so I I then returned to running and I can't remember how I first heard about Park Run. I think someone must have told me, and and I went along to that and I started on the on the running journey again. Um, and I actually struggled to run 5Ks. So like I I had to build up over a couple of months to run five kilometres. So I'd do the classic walk a bit, run a bit, walk a bit, run a bit until I could work my way up to it. And I was doing the sort of the park run in, I don't know, 30 minutes or whatever it was. Um and that, but that that there was a bit of a um bug there that that I I got I got the running bug back again and um and got into that. And again, Nicole was incredibly accommodating at that. And um, and yeah, and and and you know, she's the the end the end story for her is she's good now, she's working full-time, she's been clear for over five years, and um yeah, she's she's absolutely fantastic. So it's a it's a good story. Um you know, but it was a yeah, it was really tough. Thank you. It was really tough at that time, yeah, yeah.

Joshie 32:18

So you went from uh, like you say, walk-running, and uh probably uh we should take a quick moment out to pay our respects to Jeff Galloway, who recently uh passed, uh he I think was the pioneer of the run walk method and helped a lot of people, yeah, get off the um the couch and and show up. Um helped build a lot a lot of confidence. Um you sort of went from uh building yourself back up to f uh 5k's initially, a park run, to taking on some incredibly big um challenges, including a number of charity events. Uh I think you participated and completed the Oxfam 100K, the Relo for Life, 110K. Um what is it that motivated you or drove you to take on some of those extreme challenges? And I I do think they're extreme challenges.

Brett 33:06

Yeah. Uh I do like to push my limits. So um with the and and again, Nicole's just been so fantastic to provide a bit of a balance. Um, she sometimes challenges some of my ambitions um about the reality of that, and and so which is fantastic because it does help me with the other challenges that I was talking about around chronic fatigue, etc. So I do have it, I sort of do have the ability to push myself beyond what's good for me. Um and I find if I've got 24 hours that I can push myself for 24 hours and then accept that I need to have almost like a week just resting after that so that I don't deteriorate um uh and and become bad. So um, but I can push myself for that period. So the Oxfam Trail Walker, yeah, that was 2004 to raise money, obviously, for Oxfam, and it went around the national parks um around Sydney, which was amazing because I got, you know, went up to the Hawkesbury and national parks that I've never been to since. It was so beautiful, it was amazing. We did that as a team of four. Um, and it was it was uh it's known as a walking event, um, but we sort of did run the last 10Ks because we wanted to be break um 24 hours. You got 48 hours to do it, but we wanted to crack 24 hours for the 100 K's. So uh so we did that in 23 and a half hours. So um, yeah, really pleased with that. Um, and then there was like a um uh yeah, to do I did the um relay for life. Um, so that was two years ago. Um and you know, I wanted to be uh so because I did the Oxyam Trail Walker in uh it was 100 Ks in 23 and a half hours, I wanted to add 10 K's and take an hour off. So I added 10K, so I did 110 and then took an hour off, so 22 and a half. Um, and I ran 80 and walked 30, and it was around the AIS track. So it was 275 laps of the AIS track. Um, it wasn't well. I mean, if you compare to Ned Brockman, it was nothing compared to what he went through, but again, it was uh it pushed me to my absolute limits, I can tell you. Absolutely mentally and physically, uh, it was incredibly tough for me. And I did uh I needed a good six weeks after that. I'd injured myself as a result of it and stuff.

Joshie 35:30

So um I think you said that you ruptured a tendon, you may have experienced something called party belly as well.

Brett 35:36

Ah, yeah. So I've always my whole life, I've never dealt with sugar very well. Um so uh if I have too much sugar, I get sick in the stomach. And my mum always reminds me of all the parties I went to, and I remember having to lie down because I'd have too much sugar. So I didn't have my fueling strategy. I I that was the one area that I just neglected completely. So I put I I did quite a lot of training in terms of putting the miles in the legs, um, but I just ignored the nutrition aspect and just thought if I eat a ton of sugar, um, that'll just energize me and I'll be right. Um that'll give me the fuel I need through the event. Well, I felt I had that same feeling and I hadn't felt it for a long time that I felt when I was a kid of that party belly. Um and so I had to lie, I thought if I lie down and have a sleep between, so I had a sleep between 10 pm and midnight um uh for two hours and just drank a ton of water um beforehand and I actually woke up um refreshed. So I was fine after that. And so I just cut back. I think I'd overfueled, I think I'd had eaten too much. And one thing with fueling and nutrition is so, and I don't I read this somewhere that when you wake up in the morning, your body has 2,000 calories of energy ready to go. So when I ran the Canberra Marathon, I didn't have breakfast beforehand. In fact, I didn't have anything but water until the 35k mark. Um, so not even a not even a gel. No, I had a gel at 35 Ks. And then I had another gel at like 39Ks. Um, I've had I've had less than 10 gels in my life. Um, so I believe your body, if your body's got 2,000 calories ready to go, then you can do a lot of running with 2,000 calories. So um I suppose part of that is I'm trying to cut back. I've always had a thing with there's that there's that bit about performance nutrition and the I don't like to have too much ultra-processed foods. Uh it probably ties into that party belly feeling that I get, but um uh the whole UPF thing, I'm not really into that. Um, and I'm trying to have as much energy as I can from natural foods, and I see that as a more sort of long-term sustainable and healthy way to go. Um, but also I feel like I've sort of adapted my body to that as well. So um, but yeah, it's all uh it's it's just that physical cause and effect. You know, if I had a tiny bit of if I had like half an apple or half a banana, even an hour or two hours before a park run, I'd probably vomit at the end of the park run. So um it's that cause and effect in terms of how I feel as well.

Joshie 38:12

Um yeah, so yeah, but I really love that you're sort of chasing it's a normally they work against each other. Um, you're wanting to add distance and reduce time. Yeah. Um compounding factors.

Brett 38:28

Um the next one I want to do, so I'm 54 now. So before I'm 60, I want to add another 10Ks, another, take another hour off. So um so that'll be 120 in 21 and a half. Um so I might as well just round it to 21. So it'll be 120 in 21. Um uh, but I don't know how I'll do that event or what I'll do for it. Um, I'd like to link it into like doing fundraising. So for a good course, every year I do some type of event for fundraising. So, you know, I've done the push-up challenge in the squat challenge. Uh last year I did in I did September and I always increase, I always do more than what they say. So I always try and push myself. So, you know, if I reach a certain um donation target, then I say that I'll do, you know, commit extra, extra reps or steps or whatever it is um to try and um you know uh test myself, but also um try and raise more money as well.

Natty 39:27

So Brett, when you're doing something like that, what does a program look like for you?

Brett 39:32

Uh yeah. I suppose it varies a lot depending on what else I've got going on. Um yeah, so um if it's doing, if it's doing a a really I suppose if it's doing a really long distance event, so part of it is I I I have no interest in doing marathons, which is sort of weird in a sense, um, because all all of what I'm doing sort of lends itself well to doing marathons. But I do like doing other exercise, and I do find that um when I do these really long distance events, I do end up with some after effects in terms of injuries or niggles or um different things. So I think doing different, doing, doing different exercise helps balance that out. So um I suppose the preps like anyone that's preparing for a long distance event, you know, it includes um long runs. Um it includes um uh I suppose it's what it's really about is um for the for the big long distance events, it is about and whether it's cycling, so I've done, you know, some 24-hour mountain bike events as teams, not not solo. Um, and I've and I've done those two of those Hartley events that I did with you, Josh, which was sort of 465 Ks over three days, mountain climbing to Charlotte's Pass and back, um, from Canberra to Charlotte's Pass and back. Um, so any of those sorts of endurance events that I've done is really about miles in the legs. So um, you know, I can do intervals and a whole lot of other fancy stuff and strides and fartlicks, et cetera, et cetera. But really, it's actually just about accumulating weekly volume and it's about that consistency. Um, so you know, I can capture all that in my spreadsheet and I can I can look at what I'm doing and then I can plot it out. Then I I usually plot it out on my spreadsheet. So one of the tabs that I have is my schedule. And so, yeah, so what I'll do there is I'll schedule that out. Well, on my on my current year tab, I'll at the bottom of that, I'll put what I'm gonna do at the very bottom, I'll put what I'm gonna do in the week ahead. And then on my schedule tab, I'll sort of plot out what my months ahead will look like in terms of mileage. And so it may either be a monthly increase in volume or a weekly increase in volume, but generally it's about a six-month do it doing any of those sort of long distance, about a six-month program basically. Wow. And I'll program it out for that six months, but I'll allow for flexibility for niggles and to involve uh to include other things. Um and I'll usually gamify it where I'll just increase each month. So um, yeah, so um uh for example, um, when I did the Canberra Marathon, um, you know, I do do my long runs, but I do a really long run, even a week before the event. So listening to a lot of podcasts and consuming a lot of um materials and and just through my own lived experience of being a runner for 45 years, um, they say unless you're a professional runner that's running 150 Ks a week, um, you can do quite a sharp taper. So what I mean by that is you don't really have to start to cut your volume until the final week. Um absolutely unless you're running, you know, 100 Ks a week, then you can really be running that up until the last up until the last five to seven days. Um but that's might contravene a lot of what other other people say and and and what you read. So that's just my own lived experience, and that's just based on uh what works for me. But I find like and I almost whether it's good or not, I almost feel like I need to almost test myself the week before, so the weekend before. So maybe it's not the right thing to do, but I always feel like I'd really need to just push and test myself to see what I can do. But for the um yeah, for those, for those hundred or 110 or when I did 120, then I I still never run, my longest run's still never longer than 30, 35 Ks. Yeah. So yeah, I never do more than that in a single run. Yeah.

Joshie 43:33

I guess there's also a certain amount of subjectivity when it comes to knowing how your body responds to either reducing load or adding load. I mean, I know that there's a lot of science, but there's also only one of you, and you I guess know what's best for your body. Now, one thing, Brett, that I really admire about you is your dedication, your commitment to the process. Like it's probably no secret that you love, as you mentioned before, planning out your programs and committing to the process. But you've also had quite a few setbacks, like health setbacks along the way. Outwardly, you seem incredibly philosophical. About those interruptions. Is that also the internal monologue of Brett?

Brett 44:14

Oh, yeah. Ma. Well, I like to think that it is. I tell myself that it is, but no, not always. I think everyone has um different challenges in their life. Um so, but I do try and be as positive as I can. So I do do the whole affirmations thing and all that um to try and beat off the demons, the other, the other side, the dark side, if you like. Um, but they're there, the dark side's there, and the demons are there. Um, but I try and do positive actions um to try and offset that, even when I don't want to. Um, so yeah, I really do try. Uh also try to be accepting that everyone's most people, the vast majority of people I know or associate with are good people. And people have good days and they have bad days. And I try and be empathetic to that as well. So um, and also try not to let other people's behavior if if it's bad behavior, I try not to let that impact me negatively as well. So, and try and have some resilience there, build my own sort of internal resilience. I'm sort of deviating off the running path a little bit here. But uh yeah, yeah. So, so but it all relates to, if you like, it all relates to to running, and I do have the setbacks, and I do have mental challenges um dealing with those setbacks because sometimes it forces me to modify my schedule. Um and so, but I will do that. So um uh I used to have a I used to try and push back to what I'd originally scheduled really quickly. So um classic project management, I'd have my baseline schedule and then I'd go through a project change request in my head to allow myself to modify that schedule, and then I'd write down in another column what my modified schedule was, but it would try and accelerate the progress more quickly than the than what was healthy to try and get back to where I was at. I don't do that anymore. I just start start from scratch again and just try and um be a little bit realistic because you know at the end of the day, um the only person that actually cares about the times that you do is yourself. No one else cares. Um it's great. I think finishing the events and doing the events and and participating in the process and enjoying the process is the main thing. Um, otherwise, it's just ego um about you know getting better times and stuff. Um, so yeah, no one could care less what times I do. I I I I care personally, but no one else cares. And and I've got to try and balance my um attitude. And Nicole's great at that as well.

Joshie 46:50

So I think it's great because that I think keeps you grounded to be able to reflect on the bigger picture and know that deep down only you're fussed on your times and achievements. I think it's absolutely grounding. Yeah. But it doesn't mean that you don't have goals. Like you're still chasing, uh, you know, getting faster over 5k, 120k before, turning 60, and even something you haven't yet mentioned. The Masters Games 2027.

Brett 47:19

Oh, yeah. Well, so we've got to take a step back, because so if i i in terms of show-off moments, so I did the did the 2025 Masters Games, which was in Canberra in October last year. And so again, uh a stat that only matters to me, but I'm happy to tell everyone. Um unsolicited, whether they ask or not. So my goal was to crack 20 minutes for the 5k last year. This is Brett 2.0 since you know, since 2020. And so um, so uh yeah, so I achieved that in the 5,000 on the track. Um, and I think it was like, I think uh Josh, it's at three seconds. Is it three seconds slower than your than your 5k? Because it was it was 1935, and you quickly reminded me, you quickly told me that yours was 1932, was it?

Joshie 48:09

Uh I I think over what if you look at the 5k on Strava 1932, my park run time was five seconds slower. But yeah, I um I was pretty quick to point out that I think I had you covered by a handful of seconds.

Brett 48:21

This is middle-aged male ego, it's pretty sad, isn't it? That it is, yeah.

Joshie 48:26

But I also I also have to remind myself that you're I think eight years older than me as well.

Brett 48:30

So yeah, but but I've got a yeah, but you've um you're still improving rapidly because you've got a much younger running age than me.

Joshie 48:39

So you got a you've got a 16, 24 under your belt as well.

Brett 48:42

Yeah, yeah. Um but yeah, so so yeah, to answer your actual question. So when I did that one, um, I thought I really love this Masters Games. This is awesome. So 2027, um, so yeah, so next year. So that's part of that 18 month project I mentioned right at the beginning uh of the interview, which was um, yeah, turning my hand to to javelin. And so I go to a throws every Thursday I go to throws um and the throws coach, Dennis, he's 80 years old and he demonstrates all of the throws. So the four throws being hammer throw, shot put, discus, and javelin, he actually physically demonstrates them as an 80-year-old. He is awesome, one awesome dude. 80, did you say? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He is if you if you're looking for inspiration, uh interview him. He is what's his name, Dennis? Dennis Mace, M-A-C-E, and he is on Facebook. Um, anyway, so and I'd be happy to provide an intro. So, and his son is still like a national record holder for shot put and all sorts of stuff. Anyway, so um uh yeah, doing the javelin because I looked at the profile of the javelin throwers, and so Thomas Roller and a bunch of those guys, they're quite lean in terms of their builds, they're muscular, but they're lean. Um, and and so javelin lends itself to a full spectrum of builds, if you like. Um, well from that sort of lean muscular build through to the very bulky um people. But but the but doing the four disciplines, I've actually found I'm actually better at discus. So I find that spin and the balance, um, but having that skateboarding background, um, I'm quite good in terms of the balance. So I'm actually finding the discus better than the javelin in terms so far as a starter, but I am noticing like when you get to shot put, you do have to have a lot of body weight behind you to be able to push that shot. So I find the shot putting hammer thrower quite difficult. I enjoy having a go at them once I've worn my shoulder out with the javelin and discus. So I start with the javelin and I really love it. Um, but yeah, I've still got a long way to go. There's so much involved in technique and power. So now my training involves a lot of strength and power. So leading around leading on to a very long road to leading on to the 2027 Masters game. So I want to do the javelin in that, but also like to combine it with some running. But because I'm doing all this strength and power work, I'm looking at maybe, and I may not do this by the way, but I'm looking at maybe the like the 400 and 800. Um, so just really working my distance down because I'm starting to work on my fast twitch muscle fibre as opposed to my slow twitch. And so my times in terms of my distance, middle, and long distance running now, I'm not really fussed about. I'm just really trying to hone in on building my strength. Um, so that's that sort of 18-month project. And I'll probably then after that point might go and uh next year as well. I'll do high rocks with my daughter and I might do some other hybrid type events um because the strength lends itself well to hybrid, uh hybrid racing. Um and then beyond 2027, um, yeah, not sure might go back to doing some of the long distance stuff to build up to that 120k event that I said I'd be doing. So I sort of in a really loose way have sort of my five-year period sort of plotted out.

Joshie 52:03

Yeah, I love it. Um look, Brett, after many decades of running, logging activities, uh adapting, evolving, and rebuilding, yeah. How would you say that running has shaped who you are?

Brett 52:20

Yeah, so I suppose running has been one of those really consistent factors in my life, as I've been saying. So it's something that I've been doing on and off for the past, yeah, um, you know, several decades. And um it's something that I think you you sort of gravitate, often you gravitate towards what you're good at naturally. And because I've sort of naturally been always okay at running and always enjoyed it. Um, you know, in Tamworth we had wonderful um hills and trails up behind where I lived. So I just remember spending hours and hours just running without water or gels or anything else, um, just running on natural energy. Uh, especially as a kid, you've just got boundless energy, don't you? So um, and that's so I and I've never sort of lost that same childhood love for running. I've never I've never lost that. Um, so even when I've done other sports of, you know, with when I played soccer for a number of years, I didn't I didn't stop playing soccer until I was 45. Um, because I kept getting cold air-induced asthma. And Nicole was saying, you know, you're only getting halfway through a season and you're getting sick. Um, so I just uh decided to stop because you're playing that in winter in Canberra. Um, but I did try for several years and I played indoor as well. And indoor was obviously a lot better, but I just kept spraining my ankle and injuring my knee because I don't really have a break, so I just go all in on stuff, so I just go for it. And um, yeah, and I and I'm sort of my own worst enemy in that sense. Um, but yeah, I and and just sort of refining my love for running then in 2020 as sort of a what's that as a in my late 40s, just and and then just enjoying that whole process of learning running again and getting better at that and improving my technique and um yeah, and then also just sort of that self-competitiveness against my own times um and and getting better. So, you know, sort of doing that six years in a row of improving my park run times, um I really enjoy that process. So yeah, it's um and I and I can I can't see a day where I'm not running. So I I think I can, you know, as long as I continue to evolve and adapt in the way that I run, I I'd like to think I can just keep running uh, you know, until a very old age.

Joshie 54:39

Any final thoughts or shout-outs before we finish up today?

Brett 54:42

Oh yeah, just one. Uh yeah, just a shout out to Martin. Um Martin's might be my running buddy over the past six years. We we do park runs together, we do heaps of events together. We did the Bateman's Bay Half Marathon a couple of weeks ago. And um next weekend we're doing the Western Creek Half Marathon together. Um, and that'll end my long distance running for a little while. Um, and we'll continue to do park runs. Um so yeah, just a shout out to Martin. He's been awesome, he's been a real rock. Um, and again, he's been he's very he's a very sensible, he's very measured and sensible. So he'll say, you know, today in the park run, I'm not gonna run all out. I'm just gonna use this as a training run. I try to do that sometimes, but I literally, you know, I just can't help myself. And I know in our unbelievable chat, I was saying, yes, I am that dickhead that sprints at the end of a park run. Uh yeah, if people want to judge me, go ahead. Uh I I'll be honest on beyond what, beyond caring what other people think. Um, so judge away. But yes, I literally can't help myself. Um, so yeah, um, so yeah, just a big shout out to Martin. Um, thanks so much, buddy.

Joshie 55:53

Brett, thanks so much for joining us on Run Believable. The way that you've been able to adapt and stay focused on your exercise goals despite numerous setbacks is a true testament of your character. Um, and we sincerely look forward to watching your journey continue, especially the Masters games next year. It's been a pleasure speaking with you.

Brett 56:13

Excellent. Thanks so much, Josh and Nat. It's been awesome. Thanks, Brett.

Natty 56:17

Thanks, Brett.

Joshie 56:18

Well, Natty, what did you think?

Natty 56:20

Yeah, look, that was great. Um I I obviously haven't met Brett before, but I'd know his story from you. But um, yeah, some amazing things that he he let us know about was great.

Joshie 56:31

I particularly liked the throwing classes that he goes to. Which which which do you think you'd be the best at?

Natty 56:40

Me?

Joshie 56:41

Yeah, I think throwing a tanty.

Natty 56:45

Well, think I'll be doing that after this. Joshua.

Joshie 56:50

On that note, that is it for today. If you have a unbelievable story of your own, we'd truly love to hear it. And if you're interested in being a guest on the show, then hit us up. Finally, this podcast relies on your continued support, so if you can please take the time to follow Ray and share it with your running mates, we'd really appreciate it, and we'll see you in the next Unbelievable adventure.