Ep 29: Running with Crohn’s: The Reality No One Sees

In her own words, Mary Booth "was the most unsporty child you could ever imagine"!

Growing up, she avoided sport wherever possible; even hiding in the bathroom to get out of PE. But life had other plans.

After joining Defence and pushing through early fitness struggles, Mary’s journey took an unexpected turn when she was diagnosed with Crohn’s disease in her early twenties. Months of pain, weight loss, and uncertainty forced her to rethink everything she knew about her body.

In this episode of Runbelievable, Joshie and Matty sit down with Mary to talk about what it means to run with chronic illness... and why, for her, running became a way to reclaim control.

From cycling to ease symptoms, to discovering parkrun, to eventually completing half marathons, Mary’s story is one of resilience, planning, and learning to work with your body rather than against it.

Now, through her platform “Sore Tummy Runner,” she’s helping others navigate the realities of running with Crohn’s.

Follow Mary's journey: https://www.instagram.com/soretummyrunner/

For more information about living with Crohn's: https://crohnsandcolitis.org.au/

In this episode

• Avoiding sport and early struggles with fitness 
• Joining Defence and passing fitness tests 
• Being diagnosed with Crohn’s disease 
• Managing fatigue, pain, and uncertainty 
• Running as a way to regain control 
• Supporting others with IBD through social media 

Runbelievable — real runners, unreal stories.

Interested in being a guest on the show? Hit us up!

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Transcript

Intro

Mary 0:07

If little Mary, you know, who was, you know, certainly not sporty, may have been pumping up some basketballs, could see now. I think I think she'd think that was pretty cool. I think she'd be proud of that. So I think I think that makes everything worthwhile.

Joshie 0:22

Hello everybody and welcome to Unbelievable, the podcast that celebrates why we run. I'm your host, Josh Christian, and I'm here to bring you stories about what first got people running and what keeps them lighting up day after day. From the last and the lessons to feeling overwhelmed by two options, this is why we run and how it shapes who we become. And coming up in just a couple of moments, you'll meet a runner whose life completely changed at the age of 21, struck down with a condition that has impacted pretty much every aspect of her professional and personal life. How running became a fixture? Well, you'll find out shortly. Maddie, welcome back. It is awesome to hear your voice again.

Matty 1:01

Yeah, thanks for having me back, Joshi. And yeah, really, really happy to be back. Um, you know, nothing better than talking running, so it's good. That's true.

Joshie 1:10

And sorry the car washing business didn't work out, but at least at least you enjoy this um unpaid gig.

Matty 1:15

So Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Joshie 1:17

Be honest with me, you're only back for the quiz to reclaim your title as the quizmaster.

Matty 1:23

And I just heard you mention shoes and shoe offer. I'm intrigued by that, so I want to.

Runbelievable Rundown

Joshie 1:30

Well, we'll see. I don't think, by the way, I don't think we had a three from three in your absence. Um, you know, Natty did a great job, but I think she got two from three as her best. And but some listeners have taken delight in professing to having achieved a perfect three from three record of late, so you've got a lot to live up to, my friend. But before we get to the quiz, let's get stuck into the unbelievable rundown. Now, yes, at the intro, you might have noticed my little quip about shoe options. Um, as you know, I absolutely love a straw pole, and I posted one recently. In fact, I think it's still open at the moment about whether or not people feel overwhelmed by shoe choice. Now, we're sitting at about 66% uh uh yes and 34% no that there's no such thing. And Shona took exception to it, Maddie. Shona was like, what? Is there such a thing as too many options? Um yeah, it's uh well what about yourself? Which camp do you fall into?

Matty 2:27

Um no, I don't get overwhelmed by it. I think um now you just buy every shoe option there is. No, I I think I think I know I know what I want and I know what what feel I want. And the the other thing with me is I started running um post the introduction of carbon-plated shoes. So I really haven't run in non-carbon plated, but if you add that into the mix, you know, you're you're playing around with two completely different options there as well. So but no, I I know what I like and yeah, see, I feel I fall into that camp of people that feel overwhelmed by shoe choice.

Quiz Time: Boston Marathon

Joshie 2:57

I think it was um I think his name was Barry Schwartz, who in the early thousands wrote the book Um The Paradox of Choice, and it basically talks about how the more options we have, the harder it is to make a decision. And I personally end up feeling really overwhelmed by all the options that we have. You know, I end up either making uh a non-decision or a bad decision. In fact, I think the psychology shows that we're more likely to make a decision that makes us feel worse about ourselves, which is kind of weird. So, anyway, bit of uh bit of useless information for everyone. Um, and look, if you'd like to engage in some of the more light-hearted aspects of our show, then feel free to follow us on Instagram. We have some pretty cool stuff coming up over the next few months that you won't want to miss. And if you're enjoying the podcast and you haven't already, please do consider subscribing. It takes roughly 2.43 seconds, and it is by far the best way to stay informed when new episodes drop. And in doing so, you will also be supporting the podcast to continue growing. Now, uh Maddie, quiz time. Bring it on. And it's not what you thought. It's not shoe related. But event season well, as you know, event season is well and truly upon us.

Matty 4:13

Yep.

Joshie 4:14

And there's a growing number of events in Australia. So you'll never guess what this quiz is about. Australian running events. No, I'm sorry, it's actually about the Boston Marathon. Yeah, I was right. Sorry, bud. Zero from one already is not off to a good start. So see what I did there? If listeners could see your face right now. Uh look, so yes, it is about the Boston Marathon. By the time this episode goes to air, the 2026 event will have been run and won. Question number one. On what day of the week is the event typically held? Saturday, Sunday, or Monday?

Matty 4:57

It's a Monday because it's actually it's on their public holiday. Um, and that's why they get massive crowds that come out to watch it because it is one of the oldest marathons as well.

Joshie 5:07

You are correct. I believe it's Patriots Day, is what the public holiday is. So he's off to a I was about to say he's off to a flyer. That's one from two now. But yes, officially question number two. The 2026 event is which edition? The 130th, 140th, or 150th?

Matty 5:28

I don't exactly know. I have seen the emblem um because I do look those sorts of things up, but I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go 150th.

Joshie 5:41

It's actually the 130th edition. But tell you what, if we're still going in 20 years' time, you'll be correct.

Matty 5:49

Yes, right.

Joshie 5:51

Question number three. Who wasn't allowed to participate until 1972? Women, people of colour, or international residents?

Matty 6:05

I'm gonna go people of colour because I think women was even later than that, maybe. Um, I know there was a female who tried to, I think it was Boston, who tried to run and dressed as a male, and they found out halfway through and tried to take off the course. So I'm I'm gonna go people of colour.

Guest Spotlight: Mary Booth

Joshie 6:22

Should have gone with your gut instinct. It actually was a woman. Yeah, they weren't officially allowed to participate until 1972. But you are correct, the first person, in fact, they were this person, she was retrospective retrospectively acknowledged as the first woman in I think 1965 or 1966, she snuck onto the course, dressed as a man, like you say. In attraction as well. Yeah, exactly right. And so retrospectively she was recognized as the very first woman. But isn't that incredible that until 1972 women weren't allowed? Yeah, that's just horrible, horrible. Times have changed, and certainly for the better in that respect. Now, look, if you've been playing along at home, then please let us know. And if there's a particular quiz topic that you'd like us to feature, hit us up. Today's guest used to hide in the school bathroom to avoid PE, choosing to pump up basketballs as a form of detention rather than being out there on the court. Today, she's a runner, a nutrition enthusiast, and lives with an inflammatory bowel condition known as Crohn's disease. How does that compliment running? Well, we're about to find out. Can we please welcome Mary Booth? Welcome, Mary. Welcome back. Now, Mary, let's go back to your childhood. And I promise this isn't the start of a therapy session, but bear with me. You said that you had no running background at all. In fact, you said that you hated it. In terms of in terms of sport, how did you see yourself back then?

Mary 7:47

I was the most unsporty child you could ever imagine. I know everyone says you quite often hear people say, Oh, I was not sporty at all. I was not sporty at all. I did no sport whatsoever. I would do everything within my power to avoid any kind of sport. It just, it just was not for me.

Joshie 8:04

Including hiding in the bathroom.

Mary 8:07

Yeah. It's story so funny. I think about it now and I feel so sorry for my old PA teachers. But yeah, the option of, you know, the detention being at lunchtime you have to pump up some basketballs as opposed to going and having played, you know, touch footy or done cross country or played, you know, cricket. This I was like, I'll pump up some basketballs. That is fine. This is way better than having to be out in the field.

Joshie 8:30

Did you do much? Um, I mean, I know you said that you were very unsporty, but uh, did you participate in cross-country or at least give it a shot?

Mary 8:38

Oh, not really. I think I like, you know, you kind of do it the first year because you did try everything the first year. And then after that, I think I would do almost anything in my power to get out of it. Just was it just was not for me. I just didn't get it. I found it hard. I found it so hard, and I just didn't ever understand people who found running and PE easy. It just genetically, it just wasn't for me.

Joshie 9:01

I don't know if it's changed now. I should know because I've got two young kids, but certainly when I was a child, and we've spoken about this with other guests, that the schools or the school system isn't equipped to support those that aren't naturally adept at sport. Like, was that your experience?

Mary 9:17

100%. It's one of those things I've always thought is really strange, you know, as I've kind of gone on my running journey over the years.

Matty 9:23

Yeah.

Mary 9:24

You know, I'm in my almost in my mid-30s now, and to this day, like still no one's ever taught you how to run. Like you get taught how to play netball, or you get taught, you know, how to play baseball or cricket or hockey, but no one ever teaches you how to run. You just you're walking, and then you get told to do it faster. And if you're not doing it right, how when do you ever find out?

Matty 9:44

And I I I think that's very, very true, even even for people um like ourselves that are involved with running clubs and and do different events and and train and train off different programs and that sort of thing. And I thought about it the other day, exactly that. No one has actually taught me how to run. It's because it's a it's a human thing. As humans, we are designed to run.

Joshie 10:07

The thing is though, like it's very easy to have you know bad practices um creep into your running routine, and you can get it all wrong. And if you have a look, there's not many kids' clubs, like especially for teenagers, that help with either learning how to run or how to apply strength and conditioning to your running routine. So there's a golden opportunity there in teenage years, whilst our bodies and our brains are developing to apply some uh some science really to how we run that. Um one other thing, Mary, I want to check with you. Uh uh, and we've spoken about this with other guests, uh, that having that uh well a lack of natural sporting or running ability can actually end up affecting one's broader perception of themselves. Like, did your experience as a as a child with sport have uh uh I guess broader consequences to how you saw yourself as a person?

Mary 11:04

Yeah, absolutely. I um I didn't see myself, you know, as sporty or fit or any of those kind of things. And I think also maybe growing up in the 90s, where it was very much, you know, that very like skinny culture. I'm glad we're moved away from that a lot now, that really fed into it. It just I just figured it wasn't for me. And I didn't see that it was something that I could change either. I just kind of accepted it as the status quo. This is this is who I am until you know, until I had to change.

Joshie 11:35

How did you find school otherwise? Like aside from sport, though, did you enjoy school? Was it a good experience for you?

Mary 11:41

Oh, I was a massive music nerd. I was on music school trips, so I like I was the I was the pole opposite of the sporty kid. I was, yeah, I was in the music camps and all that sort of stuff.

Joshie 11:51

Oh, cool. I did the same thing. I played trumpet, I learned trumpet all throughout high school. I enjoyed that. What instrument did you learn?

Mary 11:57

Fleet and piano.

Joshie 11:59

Oh, cool.

Matty 12:00

I had no music, I had no sport, I had no academ academics. I was basically just this kid that floated through who yeah.

Joshie 12:11

So you had um no love for sport, and sport didn't love you when you were in your teenage year. So what did you decide to do at the age of 18 or 19? You embarked on a career where physical fitness was paramount. How did you how did you find that transition?

Mary 12:29

Oh, rough, very rough. So having gone from no sporting background whatsoever, after school, I decided I wanted to join the defense force. Okay. So um, there was a fitness test that needed to be passed. And it was it wasn't a difficult fitness test. But for someone who had no sporting background, I struggled to pass this test so badly. I had to go through it, I think, about three times until I eventually passed. But I'd be out at nighttime because I didn't want anyone to see me running because I was embarrassed. Like we said, it wasn't my background. So I'd be out there in my Dunlop volleys, you know, running, running, running, you know, between, you know, lampposts. I'd be like, all right, just run to this lamp post and walk to the next one, just to try and teach myself, you know, how to run. And it was it was just comical. And my I remember, you know, my dad standing at the front of the house, you know, watering the lawn, you know, you know, yelling expletive, you know, sprint at me, you know, as I'm, you know, running down the street to try and make me move faster. But I just don't reckon I was born with any fast twitch muscle fibers.

Joshie 13:34

Tell you, I've given me a vision of like some Australian comedy of your daddy hosing the lawn and hosing you say, run faster, kiddo, run faster.

Mary 13:42

Yeah, look, if anyone wants to take it up, you know, as a script, I'm available.

Joshie 13:46

So yeah, well, I think Michael Caton sounds like he'd played a great, great role of as your dad. Yeah. Um now, so when you say there was a test, was that the beep test or was it something else that you Yeah, it was so um it was the beep test, yeah, push-ups, and it may have been sit-ups as well.

Mary 14:04

I can't remember, it was a while ago. Yeah, but it's definitely the beep test, beep test and uh push-ups.

Matty 14:09

So clearly you worked. Is that a mile um run that you have to do as part of the beep test at one point?

Mary 14:16

I need no, so it was a 20 just a 20-meter shuttle, and I can't remember what level you had to get to at the time. It wasn't heaps, I think it might have been like 5.7 or something. And I know for a lot of people that's completely achievable. But for someone who didn't run and especially didn't run fast, yeah, um, and who hadn't done any hadn't done any sport in school, you know, I was only 17, 18 when I was trying to pass this test. That was really hard.

Matty 14:39

That sort of running is is, you know, it's easy for us to think about now. But if you're someone that doesn't do it, that wants to enter, I think that's quite a difficult thing to to achieve. It is.

Joshie 14:51

You'd enjoy it, Maddie. The beep test, um, basically, uh like Mary said, it's 20 meters uh shuttle, but basically these beeps get closer and closer together with each level. I have done it at school, but yeah, okay. Yeah. Um look, Mary, you must have worked quite hard on your fitness because fast forward a few years, you were successful in um getting employment in the um in defense, like you mentioned. You're 21 years old, you're otherwise quite well, you started experiencing severe stomach pain. Can you talk to us about that period of your life and what unfolded?

Mary 15:24

Absolutely. So I was 21, I was doing the job that I'd always wanted to do. I was having a fantastic time. This was going to be my career for life. Um and I was living up in Darwin and I'd started to develop just the most chronic stomach can um stomach pain you could ever imagine. And it was just, it was just relentless, and I just didn't know what was going on. How would I know what was going on? You know, I wasn't a specialist, I was just in a lot of pain. And this pain kept getting worse and worse, and I was a medical center constantly saying like something is something is wrong, wrong. And um I lost about eight kilos in two weeks because you just couldn't eat anything, you were sick all the time. Um, just the fatigue was really bad, and my joints had started to hurt, and you know, I just couldn't function. I was just doubled up, curled, curled up on the floor, you know, almost in tears, or, you know, in the bathroom all night, every single night. And um, in Darwin at the time, there wasn't any um gastroenterology services based in Darwin. So many specialists would have to fly up from Adelaide or Melbourne. So they're only available every couple of months. So as the city, the condition got worse and worse, and eventually I was sent off for a colonoscopy, and the result came back, and I was told you have Crohn's disease. Um, and I'm 21 at this time, and I'm going, what is Crohn's disease? I've never heard of that. I didn't know what to do with it. But on the same page, I was kind of relieved to have a diagnosis, just to know what was actually going on. So when I looked it up, it turned out that Crohn's disease was this, you know, chronic inflammatory condition where your body incorrectly recognizes your gastrointestinal tract as foreign. So it attacks it essentially. Um so from there, I had to go on all kinds of medications, you know, steroids and um immunosuppressants. And at 21, that's really tough. Like we spoke about the body image part and everything. So I've gone from being, you know, very healthy 21-year-old to being very, very thin, very brittle, having all these different medications, getting, you know, the big moon face from the steroids. And I remember being told um, you're gonna have to go into hospital and have these infusions every four weeks, these like immune suppressants. And I remember it was told to me as if it's like having chemotherapy. And that was just it was just such a slap in the face because it all happened so quickly. Yeah.

Joshie 17:53

You mentioned you and I caught up only a few days ago now. Um during our chat, you talked about whilst you were going through all of this, uh, you mentioned just before you lost a lot of weight, and at the same time that you're experiencing challenging symptoms physically that you're having to manage externally, you're having people telling you that you look great. Um, what did that do to you, I guess, psychologically, to have these um, you know, these these perceptions, this body image perception being perpetuated at the same time that you know that you're quite unwell.

Mary 18:25

Oh, it was really tough. And I'm I'm just so glad that now we kind of understand don't comment on people's bodies because you just don't know what they're going through, you know. So I did. I had a lot of people saying to me, like, oh my gosh, you've lost so much weight, you look great, you know. And then even if I sort of said to people, I'm like, oh, it's not intentional, I'm very unwell. I don't necessarily blame the people now because you don't know what you don't know. But to get comments that were along the lines of, like, oh, I wish I could get sick so I could lose weight, you stop. You don't know what I'm going through every, you don't know that I haven't slept in weeks, the pain that I'm going through, you know, the umpteen hospital appointments and back and forth and the time that I'm having to take off of work just because your body was just, it felt like it was just shutting down. Um, yeah, it really, it really plays on you. And like I said, like whilst you're getting so thin because you're so sick, at the same time, the steroids are causing your face to, you know, blow up into this big moon face. So it was a very tumultuous period.

Joshie 19:25

Yeah, that's terrible. And and I think, like you say, you don't blame the people for making those comments because they're really just a byproduct of what society was like at the time. Um, and I I mean hopefully it's changed and hopefully it continues to change. And through you sort of being very open about your journey, that that will help to continue to improve our perception of um of body image. Now, around the time that you went through this, I think you had medical medical team around you telling you to do nothing. Um and that was a really difficult time. Um, I think you decided to challenge uh I guess the status quo. Can you talk to us about what your experience was like around that time?

Mary 20:05

Yeah, I think like it's it's easy to tell people that, you know, you're going through so much and your body's under so much stress and pressure to not do anything. But I felt like I just had lost a lot of control over my body at the time and I was feeling quite isolated. Um, and a lot of the time I would just go to the I'd go over to the gym and I'd put sit on the exercise bike with just no resistance on because just sitting there moving my legs was almost like an analgesic effect. Like it was one of the few things where somehow it just stopped, or you know, it relieved the pain a bit. And I would just sit there for just honestly, like hours. And it wasn't to exercise, and I was certainly thin enough. It wasn't anything like that. It was just that it was the only way that I could really get comfortable.

Matty 20:49

It's moving. And and and moving is great for your mental health. It's it's great for your health. Like it it has such a such a huge impact, other than the actual function that you're you're undertaking. I think it's yeah, underestimating.

Mary 21:01

Yeah, absolutely. And then, you know, over the next, you know, one or two years, you went through peaks and troughs where you'd, you know, get a bit better and then get a bit worse and get a bit better and a bit worse. And I um I joined a boot camp while I was up in Darwin, which sounds like the opposite of what I should have done. But again, it was that sort of just regaining control and feeling a bit stronger, you know, in my own body. And it was just such a supportive environment, you know, it was all girls and women, and I'm still friends with some of them, you know, even to this day, which is fabulous. And as part of that, you know, there would be periods where we'd just do a bit of running. And once the pressure was off and the running became a bit more fun, I kind of went, maybe, maybe I don't hate this as much as I thought at the same time. Maybe I'm not as useless at running as I thought I was. So in the that just that changed in the environment, I was like, maybe, maybe this is something that I could get behind.

Joshie 21:53

I love that. Um was there much science uh available at the time to sort of guide you on how best to sort of self manage the condition?

Mary 22:03

Not really, no. Um the the science. Might have been available. But I think my ability to sort of research and understand how research worked was probably limited. And, you know, it makes me sound old as hell now, but like what the resources we have available to us now on the internet, they just weren't as readily available as they are now. You know, and we didn't have, you know, you know, a risk of, you know, um not everything we see obviously on social media is real and there's some there's some pretty dodgy information out there. But the US also didn't have that ability to form uh communities online like we do now. So I didn't know.

Joshie 22:41

Yeah, of course.

Mary 22:42

Yeah.

Joshie 22:43

It's interesting. I think um well we'll talk in a moment about your own research and how your experience has sort of led you to further your knowledge through education. Um but even in the conversation you and I had a few days ago, you took the time out to explain the difference. So Crohn's disease is an inflammatory bowel disease, and I thought that it was could be used interchangeably with IBS, which is inflammatory which is uh irritable bowel syndrome. You actually, uh I think it was a few years ago now, prepared a graphic, um almost like a Venn diagram to sort of help people understand the difference between the two. Are you happy just to explain briefly what the difference is between an IBD and IBS?

Mary 23:26

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I think it's something that so many people, because they sound, they sound so similar, and the overlap is that a lot of the symptoms are really similar as well. So people just don't know. And when I was first diagnosed, I think I'd get quite frustrated being like, no, it's not the same thing. What I'm going through is not what you're going through. But I think that's just why education and understanding is just so important. So inflammatory bower disease, which is what I've got, is an umbrella term for um conditions such as such as Crohn's disease. And it's characterized by tissue damage and inflammation. So you can see, you know, under imaging what has what has gone wrong. Whereas irritable bow syndrome, a syndrome is something that you can't necessarily see, but it's based up on symptoms that people report. So that's you can sort of, yeah, I'm I'm really oversimplifying it and gosh, I've banged at me. But yeah, one is very, very simply, inflammatory bow disease you can see on imaging and irritable bowel syndrome is a collection of symptoms that people experience.

Joshie 24:30

I think it would be really good as part of our show night show notes to provide a link to either your own work or something that can help people understand a little bit more about both Crohn's disease and also how IBD and IBS um differ. Now, you also mentioned to me that around the time that you were going through your own sort of personal journey and working at how you could live with Crohn's disease, and I do like how you described, I think on Instagram a couple of years ago, that you consider yourself living with Crohn's disease, not having Crohn's disease or something like that. Like it sounds like you've sort of taken ownership for it as part of your life. But around that time, I think your dad was also quite unwell and he um sadly passed away aged only 57. Is that did that further add to your motivation to take control of your own health?

Mary 25:17

100%. So the fact that my diagnosis with Crohn's sort of came at the same time as a lot of illnesses that my dad was going through, um, you know, the world works in mysterious ways. But my dad, my dad did pass away quite young, and he had a number of uh what would be called lifestyle diseases. You know, he had heart disease and diabetes and COPD, which is chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. So he had he had a whole lot of things, and it was at that time um I kind of went like, where did all of these things come from? Do they come from how we look after ourselves or what happens to us and how we eat when we're younger? And that, you know, that was me as well, being like, I had this thing called Crohn's disease. I had to find out what it was and how I could best manage it for myself. So it was around that time that I was like, I think I'm gonna go and study nutrition. And it was more, it was just like a passion project. That's really all it was. Because I just wanted to know I wanted to know how things worked. Because up until that point, I hadn't had to know exactly how my body worked. So, in a weird kind of way, getting Crohn's disease or being diagnosed with Crohn's disease wasn't the worst thing in the world because it meant that I had to do better and go learn something, learn something important.

Joshie 26:31

So, where are you at with your studies now? I think you've got a um a bachelor in uh was it nutrition?

Mary 26:38

Yeah, so I was nutritional.

Joshie 26:40

Yeah.

Mary 26:40

Yeah, yeah. So um in amongst all the time, like, you know, after shortly after my dad had passed, and I was very much still in the trenches with the, you know, trying to get a handle on the Crohn's, I went and did a just to serve for an allied health assistance, like nutrition dietetics. Um and as part of that, I went and did a month's work placement at the Royal Darwin Hospital. And I was working with the dietetics department there and we're working with people who, you know, post-surgery or had, you know, arm stomas and that sort of stuff. And I loved it. I thought it was so interesting. It was so different to anything I'd ever done before. And I was like, maybe down the track, this is what I could do. You know, I wasn't certain what my uh employment was going to look like long term, just because of, you know, the nature of the condition that I had and what limitations that might place on me. Um, so I was like, this is fantastic. So I went and did that. And then a few years later, I was living in Canberra and I went and started a um, I did my bachelor's of human nutrition. And I was like, this is fantastic, you know, but I still wasn't quite sure what direction I was going to take, take it. And then a couple of years after that, I was like, oh, I've got a bit of time, I've got capacity. I went and did um the graduate certificate, you know, of human nutrition. And it was just a constant, like me, I just wanted to know more. It was just that real thirst for knowledge to understand how our body works and how, you know, health promotion and society works around understanding nutrition and you know, the at a population level as well.

Matty 28:08

It's I I truly believe that um, you know, there's a lot of positives that come out of a lot of negatives that we experience in life. And I mentioned it in another episode as well. Um, I guess what you've experienced has led you to be who you are today, and that's quite powerful. Um, and I'm sure that you you can see that even just you explaining it then, you could see how powerful and how much it meant to you, um, which is you know, it's it's incredible. Like it's really, really good to hear those sorts of things.

Joshie 28:37

You can't sort of feign feign that enthusiasm. I like Mary how you say, uh, you had a bit of capacity. You did all this while working full-time. And you even, I think, used annual leave, maybe even purchase leave to further your stuff. That's it.

Mary 28:50

Yeah, when I went and did that placement at Royal Dow and I did, I used a month's worth of you know, annual leave. You know, I understand people go off and have holidays and that sort of stuff. I went off to do an unpaid placement, but you know, it's not a bad thing because it led me to it led me to where I am now. But Matt, your point about, you know, these things, you know, they point you to the, you know, to where you are now. If you said to me in school, like whilst I was busy pumping up basketballs at lunchtime from having kids from PA, you know, that down the track I was going to go and do a couple of nutrition degrees, you know, I was gonna be running. Absolutely no way. That's not anything that I studied in school, had no interest in it whatsoever. And now I'm like, yes, this is this stuff is important.

Matty 29:28

And how good would it be to go back to your old PE teachers or your old teachers at school and go, hey, look at me.

Mary 29:34

I do, I think that sometimes. I feel bad for them, but yeah, look at me now.

Joshie 29:40

I love that. We actually had one of our previous guests that had that opportunity. Um, we interviewed someone called Crystal um last year, and she actually, I think, ran into her old teacher or sports teacher and said, I never picked you as a runner, kind of thing. And so it was kind of like a nice F you kind of moment. Um So yeah, uh I I love um think thinking about you know, fantasizing about those opportunities. That's really cool. Now we should probably talk about running at some point because you know it's at some point, you know, I think it was through your boot camps you noticed that running was something that you started to find becoming easier as time went on. Can you talk us through your early experience with with running, particularly through boot camps and when it changed?

Mary 30:23

Absolutely. So, like I said, I had the boot the boot camp in, and it was um, you know, that's when you kind of first start having to learn how to run with Crohn's disease, and you suddenly have an encyclopedic knowledge of where all public restrooms are in your immediate vicinity. Um and then I was working with a friend in around 2017, and I think to this point I'd never run more than about four kilometers. That was about that was about my limit, and I was happy with that. And I thought four kilometers I was an I was an athlete. You know, I thought that was that was fantastic. And I was working with this friend, and I knew that she ran half marathons and marathons, and I was like, power to her could never be made. Like I did like you are, you know, you're a crazy woman, it's got nothing to do with me. And I remember one night I invited her out for dinner. I said, Do you want to go out for dinner tonight? She said, Oh, not tonight. Um, I've got to run 17 tomorrow. And I was like, 17, 17, what?

Matty 31:20

Like 17 minutes.

Mary 31:22

Like I assume she meant I assume she meant 17 minutes. She's like, No, no, I've got 17 kilometers to run tomorrow. And I was like, What on earth? Like it just boggled my mind that people would just go out and just run 17 kilometers, you know, preparing for a half marathon. I was like, what on what on earth? But this same friend invited me to come to Parkrun. She kept asking me to come to Parkrun, and I was like, I don't know what Parkrun is. Also, that sounds terrible, you know. First thing on Saturday morning with a big crowd of people, it sounds overwhelming. It sounds a bit culty, like I just said. Not for me. So, but eventually, eventually I did go to Parkrun and I was like, all right, well, this was actually excellent. You know, the people were fabulous, you know, the environment was excellent. And um, yeah, I just kind of kept going and I was just eventually like, you get a little bit faster, and five kilometers doesn't feel as hard, you know, as it once did. And you're like, all right, I think I think I can get behind this. This is and I thought, you know, I kind of thought that's where I would leave my running journey, but we kept we kept moving.

Joshie 32:22

Can you remember what year it was that you started Parkrun?

Mary 32:25

It would have been maybe 2017 or 2018.

Joshie 32:29

Yeah. And obviously you I don't want to say very quickly, but at some point you went from uh I having the mentality of, oh, I can't do this, I can't run, to maybe I can do a 10K. Can you remember the moment where it changed from being something you saw as a barrier to something that you're actually aspiring to?

Mary 32:47

I think it's that like I think it's that natural runner thing, isn't it, where we do 5K and we're like, 5K is not so hard anymore. Maybe I can do a 10K, you know. And then you do your first 10K and you're like, well, that wasn't I wonder, like I didn't die, you know. I wonder if I could do that twice. I wonder if I can do a half marathon. So then I just made a decision one day. I was like, you know, I'm gonna do a half marathon. And I looked up, you know, what the closest um half marathon was to me. And there was one in, you know, nine weeks' time, and I didn't know anything about running, and I was like, that seems like enough time. If I can do 10, I can probably double, you know, in nine weeks. Um, so I signed up to that one. Um, and the beauty of running naively is that to this day, that's still the fastest half marathon I've ever done.

Joshie 33:33

Wow. So your first half marathon's still your yeah.

Mary 33:37

The first one is still the fastest. Like I said, I think there's some beauty in the naivety of running before you know too much, you know, before you think too much about, you know, pacing and fueling and knowing these things is fabulous. But sometimes when it's still fresh and fun, that's that's cool as well.

Matty 33:54

Yeah, I think it's but once you get more into running and it becomes um more of a focused approach. I I truly believe that some of the fun can go out of it. Um, and when you've got that fun in there, and I look back when I first started running, I wouldn't look at my watch. I'd just run. You know, let's just run and try to keep up with that guy, overtake that guy.

Mary 34:14

I think I had a watch my first half marathon if I would go on, you know, Strabourg or the Nike running or something in my you know, my phone chucked into my pocket and off I went and see you in 21 kilometers. Yeah.

Matty 34:25

Yeah. Sometimes it's more fun when ignorance is worse.

Mary 34:28

Yeah, I think so.

Joshie 34:30

So 2019, you've run your first half marathon. You said that's your to this day, it's your quickest. And I think you said that's also your favorite as well, despite all the other running goals and running achievements that you've had since then. Um what was it that made that first one so special? And I guess to this day is one that you still see is in your hall of fame.

Mary 34:52

I think it's just that sense of achievement. Like I think that was the first time that I kind of went, oh, I can call myself a runner. And for what it's worth, you know, I know anyone, you know, down the track, anyone who runs, you're a runner. That's fantastic. And I will stare, you know, I'll die by that. But I think at that time I was just so perplexed and amazed that I had the ability to do that. Like I didn't think that was something that was for me. I didn't think running was for me, especially anything that had the word marathon even in it, you know, even associated with it. And I just felt good that day. You know, I felt healthy, my Crohn's was under control, I didn't have any injuries, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is a community where this is fantastic. I I love it here. Yeah.

Matty 35:36

I think it's a big thing, is that community. It's like the first half marathon that I did as well, or one of them I can't remember, is I finished and was like, this is me. Yeah. And that's obviously how you felt as well. It's that community and that acceptance, and I'm part of something pretty cool.

Mary 35:52

It does, it almost becomes like an identity thing. And I think from that, you know, that you have well, I've done a half marathon now, and I think that's sort of where you or where I sort of like you then really started to dig into like how does running work and you spend hours watching all the YouTube videos and this, that, and the other, and you know, you find out about you know, shoes and watches, and that's when, you know, it all starts to spiral from there. It does, yeah. Yeah.

Matty 36:15

You become whole.

Joshie 36:18

Yeah, I look back, I can't actually remember the moment that it changed for me, but at some point we go from being someone who runs to defining ourselves as a runner, and it's very hard to pinpoint exactly where that tipping point is. Um, I mean, do you consider yourself a a runner, Mary?

Mary 36:36

I do now. Like I think I've just I've done it for long enough and I've been through enough ups and downs as a runner that um I do consider myself a runner. And I think one of the good things about getting older, which we'll probably speak to in a little bit, is you just you care less about what people's opinion of you is, you know. So I am slower now than, you know, when I first started started running. And um, I was saying to you the other day, Josh, when we were chatting, I was like, the opposite experience for me happened with COVID. You know, the rest of the world seemed to take up running during COVID. And I kind of stopped. I don't know why. I think maybe I lost that sense of community and not being able to go to your run club and see your friends and all the events, you know, were cancelled. Um so I really have I've ridden the waves of running that, yeah, I do. I definitely consider myself a runner now.

Joshie 37:26

Running with Crohn's disease, uh, Mary sounds like quite the logistical challenge. Um, can you tell us what uh I guess an everyday run looks like to you?

Mary 37:37

Yeah, absolutely. So the nature of Crohn's is that it is quite dynamic. So some days you wouldn't know that you've got it, and other days it's it's come quite debilitating. You know, so you got like and running with it with I started, I decided to start talking about, you know, running with Crohn's disease because it's it's an unsexy disease. You know, no one's being like, oh fabulous, let's talk about bowers and your GI system. Like that's not something people love talking about. But there are so many people who live with Crohn's disease, you know. In Australia, there's about 94,000 people with Crohn's disease and 180,000 who have inflammatory bow disease, you know, that umbrella, umbrella term. Yeah, so there's there's so many. And I was out for a run. I was out for a run one day, and I was just having such a miserable time. I my stomach hurt, I'd had to stop to use bathrooms 19 different times, my joints were sore. Um, and I was just like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna like there has to be other people who are going through this as well. There's no way I'm the only person who's going through this kind of thing. So that's when I decided to like make my little like Instagram page just to find like again to find that community and kind of talk about running in Crohn's disease. I'd spent enough years doing it, you know, running with Crohn's disease that I was like, I'm pretty, I'm pretty well versed on this now, the logistics of it. Let me just put some information out there. And it might help someone, it might help one person. Because when I was diagnosed at 21, I would have killed to have some kind of resource from someone, you know, semi-relatable as to how they got through these things. So yeah, the logistics of Crohn's can be quite difficult, like I said before. You're kind of thinking about where your amenities are all the time. And, you know, if you're gonna, you know, what your energy levels are like, because it can be very zapping by your energy levels, you know, depending on how your inflammation is, you know, your knees and your ankles and your joints might be hurting. But it's just, it's just so important to be kind to yourself and just meet yourself where you're at. You can do it, you're gonna come good again. But just where you are that day, it's just it's really hard to do, especially when you've got goals to be to be a bit kind to yourself and be like, okay, this was this was today. Let's see how we go tomorrow or in a week or in a couple of weeks. But yeah, you really, you really can't just go out and be gun-ho all the time, no matter how you want to.

Matty 39:54

Does that take a lot of getting used to though, in terms of in terms of, okay, today wasn't my day, wait till tomorrow. Like that's I think um we're always uh whether we're runners or whatever, we are, we're always looking for that um, you know, I did well today, I did well today, that sort of thing. So to actually be able to say, I didn't do well, let's see how tomorrow goes, and that's an unknown as well, that must be very difficult to sort of manage mentally as well.

Mary 40:19

Definitely it's taken a lot of practice. I think, you know, just the same as practicing, you know, going out for your running, practicing your fueling, practicing everything else, practicing a bit of, you know, gratitude and self-compassion. Um it has it like it used to frustrate the live and daylights out of me. And there's times now where it still does, and you're so frustrated, and you're like, why can't I make the progress that I want to? You know, why am I sick or in pain or why do my joints hurt or anything like that? You know, why aren't other people going through this? But I think that's why it's so important to talk publicly about it because a lot of people aren't alone. You know, 180,000 people is a lot, I'm not saying all of them are running, but I know some of them are. So it's it's worth it's worth talking about, I think.

Joshie 41:01

Yeah, yeah, agree. Earlier you mentioned that Crohn's disease is quite dynamic. Um, that's something I'm keen to explore. I mean, is it like um just a day-to-day kind of dynamic, or are we talking like intra-day that things can just suddenly change at a moment's notice with how you're feeling?

Mary 41:20

It can be, yeah. So depending on how and it's it's different, it's probably worth it's very important to say that it's different for every person as well.

Matty 41:28

Okay.

Mary 41:28

And it will depend on how well controlled your condition is at the time. Like I said, I have to take um immune suppressants to make sure my immune system, you know, calms down and stops, you know, stressing out my my GI system and tacking it all the time. But it does come in peaks and troughs, and you know, those medications might work for a few years and then they'll stop, and you have to find something else, and you know, the condition will flare up again. So um it can it can change and people have different triggers, whether that's things that they um eat or their environments, you know, stress is a very, very common one, and that's one that I um definitely, you know, struggle with when, you know, life stresses, you know, just kind of you know reach reach boiling point. I can almost guarantee that, you know, the condition is going to flare up and I'll be there, you know, curled up with your hot water bottle again. And it kind of takes a bit of you know, a backseat at those times, but um it is, it's different, it's different for everyone, and it can be within the day, it can be for you know weeks or months at a time.

Joshie 42:29

And and do you find that those triggers can change as well? Like that what triggers you one day won't trigger you the next, or are they pretty stable and consistent?

Mary 42:38

My experience has been that they've changed over time. There was a period where I couldn't eat there, my like my three trigger foods I couldn't eat. I couldn't eat chickpeas, lentils, or red meat, and I couldn't eat them for years. Like they would just send me straight to the ED, essentially. Like I it'd be a disaster. Yeah, I couldn't eat them. And then I, you know, understand a bit more about nutrition. I was like, what if I, you know, start to very slowly introduce these things back into my diet? What if I, you know, um, you know, just made things, you know, made the chickpeas into like homice so it's not so hard to digest, just things like that, you know. What if I, you know, put a very small amount of lentils in my, you know, spag bowl or something like that. So I very slowly started to reintroduce these things into my diet. And now I really don't have many issues with them. So I think there's a lot to be said for understanding how nutrition and dietetics plays into Crohn's disease and that what you're struggling with now may not necessarily be, you know, forever. You know, there are some fantastic in um dietitians out there who do focus on inflammatory bowel disease. So if I could, you know, just I suppose um recommend anyone who is struggling to go and speak to someone because it it may not be forever.

Joshie 43:48

Yeah. You mentioned before that you sort of uh set it up an Instagram page as a form, I imagine a combination of a form of um, you know, self help, but also to help provide a community that other people can connect into. Um and you haven't done that in a subtle way. You're happy to talk to us about. your uh Instagram page, what name you've given that.

Mary 44:10

Yeah, absolutely. The um the page came about when I was out on that, like I said I was having that run. I was just having a really bad time. Um so I called it Sore Tummy Runner because it couldn't be more descriptive than that. Like it doesn't you know, it's just what it's just what I'm living with. And so I think the beauty of getting older is that you just kind of start to not really give a shit so much, you know, about what people think of you. And I spend so much time in my early 20s, you know, hiding the fact that I had this, you know, bow disease. You know, you don't want to talk about bow diseases in your 20s. That's not very good. But I was like, fucker it, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna do it. I'm just gonna put myself out there and I'm gonna start to find people going through a similar thing and just hope that I can be, you know, a resource or a sounding board for some people. And it's actually been excellent. I have met some really interesting people through just through making the just through making the account and it's been it's actually been really valuable. I'm so glad I did. It was um it was nerve-wracking to start with, you know, because you're like, oh what if my coworkers see it? What if people in high scholars see it? And then you kind of go like bugger bugger it like nothing changes if nothing changes. Like someone, you know, what's that saying about you know um shame dies in the light, you know? So it's just like bugger, I'll do it. I'll say something.

Joshie 45:28

It takes a lot of courage to be that vulnerable. I mean was there a point where you sort of hesitated or once you'd made the decision did you just go all in?

Mary 45:35

Oh no I panicked I panicked whilst I was making it I I panicked up I panicked constantly but I was also like what like what is the worst that can happen? There's nothing here that I'm saying that's like untrue or anything like that. Like this is what I'm with and this is what 180,000 people are living with. So you know I think that understanding and education and health promotion is so important that I'm like even if I can take my very very tiny little corner of the internet and do something worthwhile with it then it I'm going to.

Matty 46:07

Did you find it um like I I've suffered with some health conditions um which I've kept quiet about for a number of years and recently have have started talking about it. And did you what I felt I want to know did you feel it's almost like liberating it's almost it's almost very very powerful to start talking about it even though you're terrified to talk about it.

Mary 46:30

When you do you're like wow like this is me accept me for who I am like type Yeah absolutely and I think it's a bit of that you know that sort of like um exposure therapy once you do it a few times it becomes less less scary you know the first time you write anything you know that's got the word you know you know bowel or toilet or something in there you're like oh my gosh you know is this is this who I am but yeah it is really it is really live liberating to to do find you know and especially when you've held on to not so much a secret but something that you haven't really spoken about publicly for such a long time to kind of just be like to just let it out. You're like oh yeah this is it's quite cathartic in a way.

Joshie 47:06

Yeah definitely Matt mentioned earlier that you can clearly see that genuine enthusiasm Mary when it comes to talking about nutrition and health and um managing Crohn's disease um where to next with your studies remains to be seen.

Mary 47:26

So I'll be doing a bit of a career shift at the end of this year and I've obviously got the two the two degrees under my belt so I would love to do something in the nutrition or the health promotion space. Whether that looks like going back to uni and you know continue with the masters to do dietetics because there is a difference between nutrition and dietetics dietitians are a it's a protected term in Australia and they'll do your clinical kind of work whereas nutritionists can give advice to an otherwise healthy population you know that remains to be seen so it's it's not off the table but I've got I've got some decisions ahead of me I think good luck working through that and what about running wise when you just completed the Canberra half marathon um oh wow so for so for uh for people that are just listening audio um uh Mary just very proudly displayed her finisher medal for the Canberra half um what else is on the agenda this year running wise? Um I've got the Mother's Day 10k in a couple of weeks and then after that my run club have their own half marathon in mid-May which is the Canberra runners half for any interested in the Canberra region. It's very very friendly very community focused it was actually the first half that I ever did that's the one I was talking about earlier. I still went so it's just it's just such a lovely event. And then in September I was lucky enough to get tickets to the Nike After Dark tour, the one where they're taking around the world where they do it at night time. So that looks like a lot of fun. And then my and then in October I have the opportunity to tackle the full distance in Melbourne I've got um yeah my partner and I he one of us has the entry to the full one of us has an entry to the half because of course the year that I went maybe this is the year you know I've got time and capacity to train for it if not now then when was the year that they decided to ballot entry to the to the Melbourne festival. So both we both entered one of us got a half one of us got a full so yeah we'll see we'll see how the the next couple of months play out and then I'll make an informed decision on what's what's the right thing for me but right whether I do tackle the full or whether I stick with the half and just see if I can improve on my times maybe. So is the ball in your court is it just a case of if you want to take the full, you take the full yeah it is the full ball is very much in my court and I don't know I'm really like I'm I'm I entered it or I wanted to enter it because like I said I've got a bit of capacity this year. I've got a bit of time and I was like if not now then then when but I also don't want to sort of like feed into that you know societal pressure of like you have to do a marathon to be a runner you know kind of thing. And it's like I said I really want to make an informed decision make sure I do the right thing. So scary scary and exciting at the same time.

Joshie 50:16

Yeah it sounds like you've been very considered and very measured in how you apply running to your life I I think uh it takes a a lot of intelligence to um to have that foresight not everyone will sit down and take the time to think about well what's my why am I doing this? Am I doing this for m the right reasons, not just to appease other people's expectations of what I should be doing as part of that runner's evolution. So good luck with that um with making that decision and uh Mary just finally I guess forgetting about all of your achievements so far running wise um how would you say that running as an activity has shaped who you are today I think it's just that self-belief you know you constantly well I have I've anytime I've achieved a new goal and it doesn't have to be a time goal or anything like that.

Mary 51:05

Sometimes it's been just getting back to running you know after a break or something like that. You surprise yourself you do things that you didn't think that you would ever be able to do you know and I think like if little Mary you know who was you know certainly not sporty may have been pumping up some basketballs could see now I think I think she'd think that was pretty cool. I think she'd be proud of that so I think I think that makes everything worthwhile.

Joshie 51:29

Mary for all that you've been through and for allowing yourself to be so vulnerable as well you really are a star. Good luck working through the next steps in both your personal and professional lives and we really can't wait to see where you land. Thanks so much for chatting with us today.

Mary 51:44

Thanks so much guys and thank you for letting us down my story