Ep 37: Is This Australia's Most Humble Ultramarathon Champ? | Clay Dawson

Clay Dawson never planned to become a runner.

A market research study looking for overweight uni students set him on a path that would eventually lead to marathon victories, Australian representation, and some of the most remarkable endurance performances imaginable.

Yet despite all the success, Clay has spent much of his running journey battling imposter syndrome and questioning whether he truly belongs.

Clay is always looking to help shape and mentor the next generation of runners. 

https://www.instagram.com/clay_dawson/

In this episode:

•  The research study that changed everything
•  Losing weight through accidental running
•  Winning the Brisbane Marathon
•  Representing Australia in the 100km Championships
•  Why success often felt uncomfortable
•  What he'd tell anyone who doubts themselves

Oh, and in a comical twist, Clay sets the record straight on an age-old stat.

Runbelievable — real runners, unreal stories.

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About Runbelievable

Runbelievable is the podcast for every runner. From your first parkrun to your 100th marathon, from walk-run intervals to dabbling in trail running, every runner has a story worth telling. Through honest conversations with runners from all walks of life, Runbelievable explores the challenges, achievements, setbacks, and experiences that connect us through running and shape who we become.

Transcript

Clay 0:00

Every time I've won Brisbane, you have those moments where you cross the finish line and you're a hero. People are cheering and getting photos, and and then you get to stand on the stage and they read your name out and give you a big trophy and you hold it up. And then the thing is you give the trophy back, you walk back to your family, you walk out of the the precinct, and you you're just a normal person again. It fades away that instantly everyone looks at you and goes, Oh yeah, that guy's a runner.

Joshie 0:30

Hello everybody and welcome to Run Believable, the podcast that celebrates Why We Run. I'm your host, Josh Christian, and I'm here to bring you stories about what first got people running and what keeps them lighting up day after day. From the lights and the lessons to being banned for sharing tasting photos, this is why we run and how it shapes who we become. Coming up in this episode, you'll meet a runner whose journey started out with a newspaper called out to overweight university students. Yep. And he's since gone on to represent Australia at international level, and he is as humble as they get. I really can't wait to chat with him. Also, in this episode is our weekly quiz plus the announcement of a brand new competition. Lots to get through. Naddie, welcome back.

Natty 1:16

Hey Joshie. Good to be back.

Joshie 1:19

Oh, are you as excited as I am to chat with our guests today?

Natty 1:22

Oh, I am. I specifically asked to be co-host for this one.

Joshie 1:28

Yeah, we've got, I think, what, three or four of you wonderful co-hosts on rotation, and you were like in the front row jumping up and down saying, pick me, pick me.

Natty 1:35

Well, I get wife privileges as well. So that's true.

Joshie 1:38

You can make my life very uncomfortable if I said no to you.

Natty 1:42

Wife, happy life.

Joshie 1:43

That's yeah, not a true word has been spoken. Now, Natty, our latest community competition has just kicked off. I'm excited. Yep. Run believable moments. Basically, what we're looking for is peeps to share a running moment that has stuck with them. Something that's either shaped you, defined you, made you laugh, made you cry, or made you wonder why you took up the bloody sport to begin with. Um now keep an eye out on Instagram. Uh entries will close on Sunday and we'll be announcing a winner shortly thereafter. Actually, I should add, up for grabs are two tickets to the GC50 worth a total of $380. Can you believe? Gosh, that's generous. Oh, it is. And I would sincerely like to thank Adam and the team from Sport 3 for the donation. Now, as you know, Nady, the GC events are bloody amazing. They hold a particularly special place in my heart for being my very first running event back in 2021.

Natty 2:45

Is that the one I ran with you?

Joshie 2:47

Yes. Can you believe that was five years ago?

Natty 2:50

No. That was the twelve and a half that we did.

Joshie 2:53

Yes, I learned a lot that day.

Natty 2:55

Oh, that's your special moment when you had the little gel.

Joshie 3:00

Well instead of the running gel.

Natty 3:05

Yes, I do remember.

Joshie 3:06

That was yeah, that was quite quite the moment. Um, I think I was at the very first drink station, which was only two and a half K's in. I was like, oh, I'm gonna grab a cup of water and smash it over my face and look really cool, flick my hair. Uh metaphorically. Um yeah, I noticed it like, oh my face is really sticky. There were electrolytes that I'd picked up and like throw it all over my face, and it was stuck to my glasses, and it was honestly the most uncomfortable 10Ks that remained after that. But yeah, you're right. Uh yeah, then get to the finish line. And as you know, you finish uh for your first event, you've got all sorts of mixed emotions, you've got this euphoria, and they hand me a water bottle and a gel as I cross the finish line and like rip open the top of the gel and I smash that thing down. I'm like, oh, this gel tastes like shit. It was a physio cream. I had the worst stomach cramps I ever had in my life. Thanks, Nat.

Natty 4:04

Anytime.

Joshie 4:07

Oh, where was I? Okay, uh, Natty. Barely a week on, bit over a week since the Brisbane marathon.

Natty 4:14

Yes.

Joshie 4:15

Should be fresh in your mind.

Natty 4:16

Oh no.

Joshie 4:18

You'll never guess what this quiz is all about.

Natty 4:20

No, you're gonna do a trick on me now. It's gonna be something totally different. I'm not guessing.

Joshie 4:25

No, it is a Brisbane marathon.

Natty 4:29

All right, Brisbane marathon.

Joshie 4:31

Let's see how you go. Oh, you're the quiz master. I have no doubt you'll do extremely well.

Natty 4:36

Question number one.

Joshie 4:38

The first non-Japanese male to cross the finish line for the marathon.

Natty 4:45

Yes.

Joshie 4:46

Was what position number? Fourth, fifth, or sixth.

Natty 4:51

That's shit because I know the first three were Japanese now. I'm not sure. Oh, and then when I looked at the results, they had that rogue result in there that said that someone finished the marathon in two minutes or twenty-seventh. So now I can't remember. I'm gonna say false. Fifthly, not false.

Joshie 5:24

We certainly know we can put the explicit marking on this episode. Uh, fourth is the was the first one Japanese.

Natty 5:33

Stupid two minute twenty-seven crap.

Joshie 5:36

Question number two previous guest, Carly Barkle, finished where in her age group for the marathon. First, second or third.

Natty 5:53

She was really quick. She was quick, she ran a P B. Second. That was very prolonged, and that's not that's mean.

Joshie 6:09

It wasn't an intentional prolong.

Natty 6:13

Technical difficulties again.

Joshie 6:15

It is technical difficulty. You would not believe that. I clicked the correct button on this bloody software about four seconds earlier, anyway. We'll just leave it in at suspense.

Natty 6:26

Excellent.

Joshie 6:29

Third and final question.

Natty 6:30

Yes.

Joshie 6:32

Today's guest, spoiler alert, his name's Clay Dawson.

Natty 6:36

Yeah.

Joshie 6:36

Finished where overall for the marathon? 8th, 11th, or 13th.

Natty 6:43

11th. Oh, I knew that. Now I look like a fangirl.

Joshie 6:54

Well, you want to hope that Clay doesn't listen to this episode.

Natty 6:57

No, I knew that. I knew because I'd looked into it in case it came up as a question in our interview.

Joshie 7:03

Yep. Well, more power to you, Nadi. What'd you get? Two from three.

Natty 7:07

Yeah, I'm happy with that.

Joshie 7:08

Yep. I know you'll lose a bit of sleep over over that uh first question.

Natty 7:13

Not happy.

Joshie 7:15

Anyway, listeners, how did you go? Please let us know. Today's guest is truly an accidental runner. What started with responding to a newspaper ad somehow led to opportunities that he never imagined possible. Along the way, he's battled imposter syndrome, questioned whether he even deserves success, and discovered that running has a way of teaching lessons far beyond the finish line and the classroom. Can we please welcome Clay Dawson? Welcome, Clay. Oh, thank you. Thanks, Josh. That was so nice. That was a great intro. Yeah. Great intro for a great human. Let's actually kick things off with the Brisbane Marathon, which you raced quite recently. Are you happy to share how you went and how you feel about the result?

Clay 8:02

Yeah. Um, it's a really mixed one because it's uh I think it was my 12th Brisbane marathon in a row. I think it's about I think it's my second slowest. Last year was my slowest, but uh I had an injury for that. Um and this one I had um a hundred K race in my legs just three weeks prior. So I wasn't expecting the PB. Um I was hoping to run around 240, um, and I ended up doing 242, which you know seems like a bit of a failure, but um in the it was my first ever. I think I've done about 40 marathons, and that's the first one I've ever negative split. So there's a little bit of positive there. Oh wow. I smiled for most of it, and I didn't have um my watch was essentially not working for pretty much the whole race. So um I had no idea what pace I was on, so I was purely running to feel. So I'm I'm pretty happy to get nearabouts my goal. Um, and to pull up pretty well, to be honest. So yeah, I'm happy with that. So tell me about the watch. What happened? Um, I think it's just I normally don't rely overly on my watch. Um anyway, but I um yeah, just none of the splits were it's normally works a little bit. I can glance down and get it some sort of indication of what I'm up to, or you know, an overall split. But um, yeah, it just wasn't it kept throwing up really sporadic splits that were either too fast or too slow. And that sometimes happens when there's a lot of runners on course and around big cities and stuff, that it just didn't seem to find its feet at all for some reason this run. Um, yeah, so I just can just set my brain to, you know, just not focusing on that, running to feel and just trying to smile and be positive out there, and yeah, it all came into its own.

Joshie 9:51

So and just before we kick things off, you were sort of talking about suffering a bit of post-race blues, post-marathon blues. Is that something that you've commonly experienced?

Clay 10:03

Um, yeah, I think a little bit, um, sort of recently, and I guess the older I get, um, because uh as the as I get older, I guess the you know, you you get further and further away from those PB moments or those those races where you where you win or you you're on top of the podium or um and I guess that's sort of there's a false false economy that comes from those little little moments of positivity that you can always bask in after the race, whereas that's not a thing anymore. Like you can still have a good run and you can still have a great day out, but you're sometimes left with that little bit of a hollow feeling there's no real goal in front of you anymore. And I don't know. It's never too debilitating, thank God, because I know mental health is a is a big issue, and I don't want to make trivialize it or anything, but um yeah, uh for me it's it's just a little bit of a funk that sometimes I get after these races, more and more so nowadays.

Joshie 11:04

Take us back to that moment, I think you're at university when you noticed an ad in the paper.

Clay 11:10

Um Yeah. Uh I had sort of um in a different life, um, a different partner, and um yeah, I was at uni and I had a lot of ample time at home, and I noticed that there was an advertisement in the paper for market research for uh I think it was QUT, we're looking for obese men to participate in the survey where they'd give you a a fitness analysis and stuff. And you know, I I had a crack and signed up for it, thinking nothing of it, thinking I wouldn't qualify, to be honest, when I put my details in, like I don't know. Sort of just a huskier guy, I thought, and they wrote back and said, You're perfect. I'm aware. And that was the first of many light bulb moments after that. Because the fitness analysis didn't come back too glowing, put it that way. Um yeah, and it was just sort of the start of a big journey. So how old were you at the time? Um it would have been yeah, mid-university, so I think early twenties, I dare say. Yeah.

Joshie 12:15

So how how r how revealing was that? Some of the I guess the numbers and stats that you got back?

Clay 12:22

Um, they were nice enough to put lots of um graphs and stuff for a simpleton like me to understand. So that was the double-edged sword, is it? Yeah, it um yeah, there were lots of graphs that were the wrong way inclined, um, and lots of words like obese, and um, yeah, I was very much in the obese category, um, heading towards the the the up end of that, which was quite scary. Um yeah, because you hear those words and and they're quite jarring. But even then, once that sort of came, uh it wasn't it wasn't even a call to arms, it was just kind of uh, well, this is I always consumed I was just sort of a huskier built guy, and that that sort of part and parcel of being a thicker set guy is that you're gonna carry a bit of weight. And um, I didn't think it was something that could get solved or um or rectified or changed at all. I just didn't think you could change your body shape like that. Um you know, it's probably testament to the people, you know, my my friends and family who never, you know, made me feel like I was any lesser because of it.

Joshie 13:25

But um yeah, it's funny how your mindset can just accept things or or be a bit blind to that. So getting that information back, Clay, did it change how you saw yourself at all?

Clay 13:37

Um to some degree, but I think I just, yeah, like I said, I just think I just blindsided it. It wasn't until sort of I almost got bored. And um like I actually I remember seeing the movie La Blade Trinity came out and it had Ryan Reynolds in it. And back then he was kind of I knew him as this really skinny, sort of rake thin guy. And then this movie came out where this guy had just put on this dramatic bulk of weight and in terms of muscle, and I went, gee, he's really changed his body shape. And that kind of spurred a little bit of a bit of a challenge, I guess, in my brain. But I thought, I wonder if I can change my body shape the opposite way and kind of lose not that I had muscle, but lose lose mass instead of putting it on. And that sort of started. I never even then I didn't really think it was a possible thing, but it was more sheer boredom and school holidays that made it possible.

Joshie 14:31

I was just gonna ask at what point did running sort of enter the frame for you.

Clay 14:36

Well, that was quite fortuitous and quite quite beautiful in retrospect, because I I lived in a small complex in Annalee that had a a gym complex as part of the the whole units. Like we all had access to this little small room which had a treadmill and had a a bike and uh, you know, rusty old weight sets and stuff. So I'd just go in there and try and play around. I had no knowledge and just tool around on all the equipment, and then I kind of got used to sitting on the bike for a little bit, and then the bike broke, and a few of the other equipments broke, and the treadmill was breaking, and I just thought, well, I'm just gonna go outside and go for a run. And I just there were no back then there was no watches, there were no carbon plates and shoes or anything. Like I just literally ran and probably just ran literally ran to feel. I had no knowledge of running, no, it was a completely alien world, and just went for a run every day, and then the weight just kind of fell off, and the I don't even I couldn't even tell you how far I ran, but I just had sort of the blocks got bigger and bigger that I ran and I sort of became a habit.

Joshie 15:41

So and I enjoyed it, to be honest. But yeah. You and I um caught up a few weeks ago, and I think you mentioned that around that time you were playing baseball. Is that something that you kept up with once you started running, or did you ditch it and sort of focus your sights on running exclusively?

Clay 16:01

Um baseball kind of organically sort of I I grew up playing it with my brother, and um we were we were very, very close, we are very, very close, and we played baseball all through high school and stuff, and um club baseball and things. And then when I went to university, in the last couple of years of university, I started sort of organizing the Griffith University baseball team, and um I was the worst player on the team by far, but I was the manager, so I wasn't gonna get dumped. And um, we made the we made the Uni Games Nationals and had a whole bunch of adventures there that mostly involved drinking and friendship. Um yeah, and then it kind of organically finished not long after that. I think I played a couple of years of club baseball with my uni friends. Um and I was never talent, I was below, below average when it I was never really talented at baseball. So it was easy to just sort of let that one fade away. And I think that might have been maybe even faded away a few years before the running. Um the running just literally came up organically, and I was doing no fitness at that point, apart from maybe social basketball or something. Okay.

Natty 17:11

Clay, when you when you started running and you realized you really enjoyed it, when did it begin to get a bit more serious for you?

Clay 17:20

It was quite a while afterwards because um in between well, sort of early on, um that sort of world closed and that relationship sort of ended. And I met my um now wife, Michelle. Um, we early on in our relationship, we lived for a year in Canada. And um as part of that, we kind of fell in with a fit crew of amazing people. And our goal that year was to sort of, instead of being the typical bashful Australians and saying, you know, no, if someone invites you to something, oh no, no, we don't, you know, being humble or anything. We just said if the opportunity comes up to do anything, just say yes, whatever it is. And we had amazing adventures over there. Like I think I ran a cheese race up, they rolled a wheel of cheese down a ski mountain and I jumped in and did that. And we kayaked um and camped on an island with seals and oysters with friends and hiked up to the top of a glacier. And one of the things they did was an adventure race. And um, at that point I was still running every day, and they said, Well, we need a runner, you run all the time, just come and jump in. And um, I jumped in the race and just loved it, started passing all these people. And um, after that, we did a half marathon over there, and I kind of I think I did it was like 116 or 118 or something with just literally no like just daily running. There was no organized training, there was no hydration, there was nothing. I think I was running in a t-shirt and shorts and heavy ASIC shoes and whatever. Um and then, you know, a few people over there said you're you're kind of talented. So after that year came, we came back home to Australia and I thought, I wonder if there's a running community in Australia. And just it just took off. I started running fun runs and like getting good results.

Joshie 19:11

Yeah, it was it's a pretty organic story. Is it true that you were somewhat skeptical when you got back um whether there were even any run clubs in Brisbane?

Clay 19:21

Yeah, there was like I even uh particularly out at Ipswich, I had no idea. Because I'm I mean, like most Aussies, we all we all have memories of turning on the TV and seeing Steve Monogetti towing up everyone at the City to Surf, or you turn on the Olympics and see the occasional Aussie there and go, oh wow, they look kind of different from everyone else in that race. Ha ha ha. And then turn like without really paying attention, you kind of absorbed that stuff. But I didn't know that there were communities of I didn't know anyone did who did fun runs per se. I mean, I did the the bridge to Brisbane in high school, but quickly filtered that out of my memory, and you know, I thought fun run fun runs were things that people did once and then never did again. I didn't really think of it as a collective sport at all.

Joshie 20:09

Um so how and when did in training become part of your journey?

Clay 20:16

Um they picked me up pretty early on um and sort of offered me support in terms of you know, uh mentorship and and coaching and sort of um certainly um sort of support in terms of gear and stuff, once they saw that I had a bit of talent, and they they were really, really good in helping me sort of find my identity as as a Brisbane runner in particular, um, and a Queensland runner. Um yeah, Steve and Margot and the whole team there, um, Ricky Swindale and those guys from way back when they were really great at sort of cultivating this ideal and showing me what running could be. Um yeah. So they they were pretty early on. I I can't really pinpoint exact year because it's been quite a while now. Um but yeah, they've just always been part of the journey and they're still are, thankfully.

Joshie 21:14

So can I ask what it is that made you not look at other run clubs, I guess elite run clubs, because there's obviously quite a few around. Was the temptation ever there for you?

Clay 21:26

No, not overly. I mean, I train with um just because I live so far out of Brisbane, a lot of my training happens with um with a run group out there that we kind of well, I guess I co-founded um with a group of other guys uh called the Nancy runners. And we're it's basically just a collective of runners who run together for free and help each other out. So um to sort of supplement the fact that especially now with a family, I I just don't have time to get into to run the sessions in Brisbane anymore. Um this is kind of a nice little supplement to that. But no, I've never been tempted to join any other group. Um it's in training's got this amazing ground swell where I've run races in Hobart and seen four or five people in in-training singlets yelling out to each other, and it's great to be part of that that community that sort of stretches. I reckon you can do a race in Antarctica and probably run into an in-training runner there. Like it's always someone wearing the red and white. And I could I really like that. That's so it's something I'm I'm proud to be part of, and it's proud, I'm proud to spruke as well.

Joshie 22:37

As you know, Nat and I are also both members of In Training, and the thing that's stays with me is just just how strong the inclusiveness and the community vibe is. It's unlike any other group that I've been part of running or otherwise. Um how important is that community side to you, Clay?

Clay 22:55

Oh, it's it's probably the most important part. Um, because you know, if uh to some degree, and again, I don't want to make light of you know mental illness or anything, but there's a lot of us out there that medicate ourselves um with running and community, and um to have that access to great clubs and great running communities is just so important, um, especially nowadays. Like it's it's phenomenal to think that I can go for a run and in training and and have a chat of people like Aiden Hobbs, um you know, Marty Kelly, all those amazing runners, as well as you know, Steve Amargot and everyone, but also the every runner. There's runners from every world of and and there's no barriers there between anyone. And that's that's such a such an amazing credit to the club and a credit to the members.

Joshie 23:47

Now obviously your running achievements are quite numerous. The the one that I like to reflect on is um 2017. I think you won three marathons in six weeks.

Clay 23:59

And I'm glad you I'm glad you brought that up because I think there's a bit of misinformation that somehow got out from a newspaper article and it's been replicated a few times. I've seen it pop up. Um had it had it told back to me a few times. But there's three races, that's true. All the times were true, but the first one was the Gold Coast Marathon, which I'm fairly confident I didn't win. Um I might have made my age factory, but I think there's a couple of um couple of other nationalities that might have um well and truly beat me to that. Um I think I might have even been like third Aussie, but I think I was about oh gee, I don't know what. Either way, it was a PB. It was I was stoked. It was 226.54. Um, so that was Gold Coast first, and I um we sort of set up a race. That was our goal race, and then our backup race was two weeks or three weeks later was Brisbane Marathon. Um just because it's a habit to run that race every year. Um, at that point, I believe in training we're organizing the marathon, so to support them as well. I liked running that race as much as possible. And same nowadays, it's run by Atlas, and Atlas had been another incredible organization that have supported me, so I'll support them as long as they'll put up with me. Um, but yeah, so there was um that and then Brisbane. We the goal was sub Sub-230, and we knocked it over well and truly on the first one. So the second race was a case of, well, I've already got my goal, we'll just see what happens. And then we had Sunshine Coast um again, which was I think that was run by Atlas at that point, and I wanted to support them, and that was two or three weeks later, too. So I thought, well, you know, might as well keep it going, and for some reason managed to um have an have get the win there and run 228 or something. So still sub 230. So to do twos, three sub 230s within, I don't know, at least two months, I think, is um pretty amazing. I I'm still pretty proud of that.

Natty 25:59

So Clay, backing up three massive races like that, um, how did you prevent injury and fatigue?

Clay 26:07

I think lunacy played a part in that. I don't I don't think I even really considered it because there's yeah, there's a lot of times in this running career so far where things have worked against good um against you know um any kind of reason or logic. Um it just shouldn't it shouldn't work like that. But some reason my my body back then could just I think it might have been because I was running just consistent running every single day was running. Um, and there was not ridiculous Ks, like especially now with the backyard ultras, you've got lots of people that are running 200 Ks a week. Um, but I was running uh you know at least 140 to 160 Ks every week, year in, year out, for years and years and years, and that just built a I think a strength in the legs that just you could just absorb things. And there was lots of slow running. And um, if I look back at my Strava now, I reckon I I'd like to think if I look back now, there'd be lots of really slow running or a few weeks without sessions, so you really are absorbing it. Um, but just breaking up that scar tissue and uh keeping everything moving forward. There was just this huge base underneath me, and yeah. Um and just this the level of there was no doubt. Um, like there was no fear, it was just running with nothing to lose. Every single race was with nothing to lose. It was yeah, I don't know what I wish I could find out what that magic secret source was so I could get it back. But yeah, I I don't know, to be honest. I don't know why I wasn't injured. Um I've been pretty fortunate to never have a major, major injury.

Joshie 27:48

You know, Clay, when you and I caught up a few weeks ago, I think it I can't remember which marathon you were talking about. It was one of those ones in 2017 that you won. And I think you said that you had this feeling of like pulling off a heist or something like that when you crossed the finish line. Um is there any part of you that didn't feel deserving or worthy of success or winning?

Clay 28:12

Yeah, there's always that there, and I think that's I'm learning the older I get, the more that's kind of part of my makeup. And even in a work capacity as well, I have this constant imposter syndrome where, you know, I I'm whether it's coming from being uh someone who doesn't come from a naturally athletic background or gifted athletic background, at least anyway. Um, you know, I I I think the race I was talking about in particular was I think the first Brisbane I won. I remember looking around at the start line at all these athletes, and I knew I was fast enough to be sort of in the top ten, maybe. I thought a good day would be a top ten. And I remember it that race quickly getting into first place and just holding first for the entire race and crossing the finish line, it felt like the officials were going to come over and say, You've got another lap to go, or there was some sort of something. I don't know. It just didn't it didn't make sense in my head that the that nine other blokes or you know people hadn't gone past me. It just didn't make sense, and that was it was really beautiful that first one because my wife and my mum and my dad were there, and there's this photo at the finish, and I've got it up on my wall at home where I'm crossing the finish line and there's this utter disbelief on my face, which I couldn't hide. And and you know, and my wife's in the background, and my mum and dad are just losing their brain because they obviously didn't exp expect it either. I think no one expected it at all. Um, and it's uh that never really faded. I never I've never gone into a marathon and thought, you know, good luck to everyone coming second and third. Like no, I've any anyone I've ever been successful at, I've gone in expecting to, you know, certainly not be on top of the dice, that's for sure.

Joshie 29:58

But do you go into a race with a sense of self-belief though? Like you're incredibly humble, but do you still have this sense of belief that you're going to give it your all and that podium being on the podium is still achievable?

Clay 30:12

There's well, I guess there's always a potential because you never know that it's gonna happen, but it's more for me, I think it's uh I'm just a massive tight ass and a massive, um, massive like I'm just stubborn. I know that you know, I'm not the kind of person that's gonna stop a you know, miss a drink stop and go, oh well that's it for me. I'm gonna walk off and call it a day. Like I just even if if like as a I knew last year, last prison marathon when it I knew very early on it wasn't my fastest marathon, I knew it was gonna be my slowest marathon bar a long way. I knew I was carrying um sort of a a niggle that was developing into a sort of a light injury, um, but I still wasn't gonna not finish. I still finished. It just meant that my mindset came from you know pushing myself as close to the red line as to running a bit safer and and trying to spread some joy and smile and be positive on course and you know, it just changed the mindset a bit. So yeah, there's always a there's always a chance, of course, that you can podium, but there's just as good a chance that you won't. And I'd you know, for me it's it doesn't really register too much. I don't race to podium. Um it's nice when it comes and it's great, and it's excellent to bask in the glory for two seconds before it fades away. But um, but no, like the for me it's all about the challenge and all about you know uh build building that self-worth in myself, I think. Going, you know, a kid with who doesn't deserve to to have to be able to run 42ks can run 42ks pretty easily now. That's pretty special.

Joshie 31:50

It really is. And obviously you've gone on to participate um and even do quite well in ultras. Um what sort of made you go down that path? Was it about just continually challenging yourself or were you trying to, you know, prove something to to others or to doubters? Where did it come from? I don't know.

Clay 32:11

Um yeah, I'd like to think it's the yeah, um, the challenging myself because it did at that point I think I'd run 20 or so marathons. And I had a close friend, um, Paul Shard, who ran a 500k race at Narang. And I was sitting on the fence with I saw there was a hundred K race in Melbourne coming up in um Wangarata, and I was like, Oh, I don't know, I don't know. And I went and watched him finish that race, and I went, you know what, that looks like a proper challenge. Like, you know, imagine it's you know, I could have gone from a 42 to a 50, but that, you know, let's what's what's what's even more of a challenge? Oh, let's do two and a half marathons and let's just jump straight in, sign up, drive down to Melbourne and make it a thing, and it and it the luck fortunately that was my fastest 100k. So there's yeah, yep, yeah, still is to this day. Just everything fell in line and just had an absolute blinder.

Joshie 33:08

We don't usually talk about times on on Run Believable, but I am curious what what was your time for the 100k? Uh that was 654.

Clay 33:17

And again, so from like prior to that, like I had no idea what I kind of roughly knew that around seven hours or something was a Australian qualifier. And I was like, okay, well, that must be an achievable sort of goal. Otherwise, you know, why would you have a qualifier that was completely impossible? Like you couldn't set a hundred you couldn't set a hundred meter qualifier as at six seconds because everyone would go, well, that's pointless. So I assumed it was doable, and then so I just ran and ran purely to fuel, fuel myself, crewed for myself, and did all that and got to the end and um managed to get the win and got back to the hotel and had all these messages from the Australian team and some mates in the ultra-Australian team for 24 hours. And they sort of said, Holy cow, you've broken seven hours, and I went, Oh, is that good? And they're like, Yeah, that's pretty good. Oh, okay. So, yeah. Um, it's something I treasure now, and I I I regret not being a bit more sort of humble about that, but yeah.

Natty 34:23

With with the ultras clay, what sort of training's involved with that?

Clay 34:28

Um, I don't know if I've masked it yet, but uh just long, slow, just that the those um kilometers that I've been doing, just lots of easy running, lots of time on the legs. Um I don't think it varies a whole lot from the marathon training. I mean, there's a little bit less onus on speed work, um, which is probably why my marathon times have slipped as well as as much as I hate to admit it, age. Um but yeah, I think it's just getting having that time on the legs and knowing that you can run for an extended amount of time. Um, I think that's the key. Um there's there yeah, but the once you start looking at at your um pace times um in an ultra marathon are a lot more attainable. Whereas sometimes I know many of the listeners will probably have coaches tell them to do reps at marathon pace, and it seems like like light speed, it seems impossible. Um whereas an Ultra, if if the if the coach was to give you marathon um ultra marathon splits, you'd go, Oh, that's quite nice, actually.

Joshie 35:36

You're running your running clays taking you to some incredible destinations and you've achieved some incredible results, including representing Australia. What would you say is your proudest running moment?

Clay 35:50

Uh without a doubt, it has to be um last year at the um at the Oceanic 100k championships. Um I entered that on a like on a whim. I had a I had a 12-hour run and I had a a history of running for Australia and always running okay, um, never hitting the the times that I really wanted or the places that I thought I was capable of. I always underperformed or you know, pulled up with a a nickel or an injury that would kind of ruin the race a little bit for me. But um, so I I applied for the team thinking that I wouldn't get in. And for some reason, um they the selection committee were kind and they put me in the team. They not only put me in the team, but they gave me the captaincy. Um so I had the absolute honor of captaining the Australian team with Ben Um and Hooksie. Um, the three of us went over with our our manager Ash. And um, yeah, I for some reason even before the race, um Hooksie and and Ben were were training the house down, and I I sort of set the goal of just finishing because there's a the first three runners, um, your first three runners are eligible for a teams medal as well. Okay. Um so the like we had team conversations before where we said, look, our goal has to be, we're a really red-hot shit shot at um getting a team medal. So our goal, our number one goal has to be to finish the race, because if the other two blokes have a great run, and you try to be a hero and it all falls apart in your DNF, well then you've not only ruined your race, you've ruined the two other blokes' chance to get a get a medal for the country. And we all agreed that that was has to be our number one. We have to work as a team and and try and just cross the line. Um and then and so my goal was laser focused on just surviving and getting through the race. And um, I had all kinds of foot issues coming into it. I had these plantar warts that came out of nowhere on my feet, and just which I've never had in my life, but Steve Manning would help me out in fixing that. Um and then literally a week before the race, they fixed themselves and went over, had niggles in the legs, and just felt terrible. All my lead up runs were horrendously bad. And I was like, Oh, we'll just finish this race and and try and keep the motivation high for the team and be the be a good captain and be positive and be a team player. And the day came and I just had an absolute blinder and yeah, came, yeah, came in second place overall. Um the team, the other boy, the other boys um did did a little worse than they they probably wanted to, um, but they still ran amazingly well and were so tough. So we ended up with a sil I ended up with a silver individual medal and we got the silver teams medal. So that was yeah, probably one of my proudest moments was standing on the dice with the the you know the three other Aussie guys. So cat, you know, um Ash was there as well, our manager. So, you know, getting to share in that glory for an individual sport, um, having a team medal was probably one of the most special moments I think I've ever had.

Joshie 39:09

So can I ask, I mean, you've with a lot of your previous running successes, you haven't appreciated them at the time for what they were. Was this different? This was different, yeah.

Clay 39:19

Yep. Um, and that that feeling, and I think it came down to realizing that I'd done the right thing by the guys, and I'd um it really was I had those those three guys in my head as I crossed the line, like there were tears. It was I was I was thinking about my family at home watching the live stream, my kids, and you always want to be the right bloke for you, you know. I've got a beautiful son and daughter, and my wife's wonderful as well. Um, you want to be the best, best possible example for them and and try and show them the possibilities of or the payoff for hard work and stuff. Um so that it was very emotional, that one. And even the day after the event, um, or a couple of days after the event, I stayed on in Bangkok for a couple of days before I flew home. And um, I went back to the they'd cleaned up, it was at a at a park, a local park, and went around and around. And I went back and sat down at the finish line and just tried to to savor it as much as possible. Um, that's wonderful. Yeah, it's pretty special.

Joshie 40:22

Yeah. Because I guess as runners, and especially for someone like yourself that's quite committed to endurance running, it must be difficult to take that time to reflect and fully absorb what you achieve. Um, is that something that you've um found difficult at all over the journey?

Clay 40:40

Yeah, absolutely. And it's something I speak about often when I talk to younger runners as well. Um, and and not to dissuade them at all, but realistically, I've had the the good fortune of winning big marathons um or big-ish. Um well every time I've won Brisbane, you have those moments where you cross the finish line and you're a hero, people are cheering and getting photos, and and then you get to stand on the stage and they rig your name out and give you a big trophy and you hold it up. And then the thing is you give the trophy back, you walk back to your family, you walk out of the the precinct, and you you're just a normal person again. It fades away. That instantly everyone looks at you and goes, Oh, yeah, that guy's a runner. And that's the beauty of the sport is that you know there's those moments that keep you humble as well. You realize, well, then once that's over, it's time to set your goals on the next thing and and work towards that. And the time to to soak it all in and look at all will be later on when you can't do it anymore. But you you can't, you know, and if I go around you go around calling yourself the Bruce and Marathon champion every day for the next 12 months, you put a very big target on your back, as well as the fact that, you know, we all end up running the same speed at the end of the day, so you can't take it too seriously. You can appreciate it, but you know Yeah, I yeah. I think an ego can be a dangerous thing too.

Joshie 42:07

You know, Clay, you and I don't know each other that well. Um we mix in the same circles, and I've it's anecdotic anecdotally some incredible stories about selflessness from yourself, um, you know, giving up your own goals for the sake of others, giving up nutrition for other people that are in need. Where do you think that mindset comes from?

Clay 42:28

Um I'd like to think it was um bred into me by my family. My parents um have always been very working class, um very honest, um, with really strong morals, and they've they've pushed that onto myself and my brothers, and it's something that we really sort of pride ourselves on. And I'm that I'm a school teacher by trade, and um it's something that I really try to instill into other my the students that I get lucky enough to teach and and my own children as well, is that you know I think at the end of the day, if you're a good person, um, you tend to attract other good people around you and you tend to be a lot a lot more successful in life or a lot more, you know, you can sleep well at night, put it that way.

Joshie 43:14

And do you think that's a factor in what's kept you going with running? Because there's a lot of other runners that have won all sorts of events, won marathons, and once they're off the top step of that podium, those expectations have been set and they end up losing interest and losing love for running. But you seem to be someone that has is quite at peace with maybe not being able to stand on the top step of a podium anymore.

Clay 43:41

Yeah. Yeah, it's something that I've had to become accustomed to for sure, and it's something everyone kinda has to be accustomed to at some point. Um yeah, perhaps. I'd I'd I'd yeah, I've I've noticed that. And again, whether it's a bit of that trying to set the right example for my kids as well. Um and And also the the hindsight that comes from the fact that there's never it will never be if you if you live off success, there's a chance that you'll never be satisfied. Like if you win parkrun, or then that's great, but you haven't won a race yet. Oh yeah, well, you've won a ten K, great, but that's not really half mouth. And then it just grows and grows until you're the Olympic champion and you realize that you know you might not be the greatest Olympic champion ever. Like at some point you've got to be satisfied with what you've got and realize that it it is just a game at the end of the day, it's a sport, it's you know, it's important and it's helping people and it's helping your your own mental sanity and and creating community and everything, but you know, it is yeah. I actually forget the question.

Natty 44:50

Sorry.

Joshie 44:51

No. I can't I can't remember either. But um what I was gonna ask, uh, have you ever lost the love for running?

Clay 45:00

Yeah, periodically, all the time. Um there are uh even this morning I set my alarm to get up and run, and the alarm went off, and I went, I just don't feel like it. And I'm learning now to to deal with the guilt of not running. Um I'll still probably run this afternoon, just like I said, because it's a it's a form of therapy and it clears my head out nicely. So I'll go for a little run after I pick the kids up. Um but yeah, of course, there's there's times when you don't feel like doing it or or you work really hard for a for a race or for and it just doesn't it doesn't work. You you you work harder than everyone else in your training group and then everyone has success and you have a bad race, or well that's you know, that's just the way it is, unfortunately. There's a good deal of luck involved and um once you sort of come to terms with that, the hopefully the the times you love the sport outweigh the times you don't, but it's I think it's a natural process for sure. Yeah, it's not a it's not a linear thing for me, unfortunately. It might be for some, but it just isn't for me. So then what lies ahead for you running wise clay? Um I don't know. I feel like there's a I I've said to a few people this year they've gone a have you thought about going to world champs for the hundredk this year's in Spain? Um but realistic side. Yeah, yeah, it is, and I'm fairly confident um I've got the qualifier, but the downside is I you know I can't really afford to to fly myself over there and it's a bit of a um um uncertain place to fly at the moment anyway. Um, but uh yeah, so that's something I might have to just reconcile to let go. Um unfortunately every event that I fly overseas for is a holiday that I take out of my own kids' prop you know lives. So that's the reality now that if I'm going to do another race overseas like that, it'll probably be another oceanic championships or something, which is generally in a more affordable place to fly to. And it might mean that instead of me flying away from my family for a week or two, it'll be me taking my family, hopefully. And um yeah, that can share in the lunacy of watching dad run around in circles for seven hours.

Joshie 47:24

One thing that you mentioned to me when we caught up was how you've noticed that your cravings will often change during ultras. Um you're gonna have to talk me through what what that's like, um, some of the crazy experiences you've had. I think you said recently at the River Run you you started craving bananas for like the first time in your life or something crazy like that.

Natty 47:45

Yeah, yeah.

Clay 47:46

It's weird because I've never really been conscious with my fueling. Even in marathons, I've never um, yeah, I've I've only just had gels for the first time last weekend in a race because I never quite ever quite worked out how how you could have a gel while you were running far. Um I I used gels. I used gels in the I'm sorry, the 100k. That was the first time I did it three weeks ago, and then I ran it used in the marathon. But yeah, like um I've had a uh 100k where it was around a track in Coburg and it got to about the last 20 Ks. And I had I had all my nutrition, water nutrition, um like tailwind and stuff. Um and I I used to live religiously off that, and it got to the last 20 Ks, and I just got gut rot or something. I just thought I can't have another one of those. And I saw my good mate Dion, who's an amazing runner, um, he lives down there, and I saw him by the side of the track and I said, if you get me a can of Coke, I just wanted a can of Coke. I don't know why. I said if you get me a can of Coke, I'll give you a thousand dollars, mate. Like, just I need my thankfully he didn't charge me a thousand bucks. He actually didn't charge me anything, but he got me a Coke and I drank it, and it was like the sweetest nectar in the world. So the next race, I thought, you know, I'm gonna jump the gun here. I'm gonna like Dion's actually racing with me, so I can't expect him to grab me a Coke. I'm gonna buy a big slab of Cokes. And that was my hydration plan. But the problem is it's uh it's a diuretic. So I started cramping and I was curing the cramping with the thing that was causing the cramping. So I'd cramp on a lap and then I'd have a coat to try and you know get some liquid in, and then double cramp the next lap and then have another coke, and then double, and just the last half of that next hundred K was just cramping. So it just you never know. I'd now I'd just get a small disport of different things and just put it on the table and um yeah, just try to work to that. But then at the river run, like I said, I had I had gels, I'd set in and planned out my gels every sort of five Ks. And towards the end, I my wife thankfully crewed for me. I never normally have anyone crew for me. She crewed for me, and I said, Can you just get me a banana? And somehow she got a banana. And again, so it's I'm sure the elite guys must have must know what they're know what's going on, but I don't seem to have worked it out yet. I think I've had 500k races or 600k races, and I still haven't worked it out.

Joshie 50:12

So you've done 100k on the track. Mm-hmm. Oh. What happens to the mind? Um I mean, I find just doing five laps enough.

Clay 50:23

Well, I'm blessed with a brain that doesn't um doesn't have too much going on in it. So it's easy to distract and switch off. I've the way I run though, I I yeah, it's perfect for me. I mean, it it is agony on the body, because you you do two hours one way and then generally two hours you switch every the direction just to take the take the load off. But every time you switch, you don't realize how conditioned your legs are to turning left. And then suddenly you turn right and it feels like you're sort of, I don't know, like feel like you're half asleep, your body just doesn't do what it wants to do. But it's the the really good thing is you're only ever 200 meters worst case scenario away from a toilet or your food or drink, so you can really manage that to feel as opposed to a race where you might be five kilometres between stops. So there's that benefit. Um, but yeah, you could just and I don't use headphones or anything when I race either. So for that, that sort of particular run, it was great because just sort of what I did is just gamified it for myself. I don't normally worry about where everyone is, unless I'm having a really bad race. One way to sort of get my head into the game is to sort of gamify. I might look at the person who's in front of me or look at the person who's behind me, and then use that distance between them and just try and make it a mathematical game from there. So um, for that race around the track, I just worked out where second place was and and there was a live leaderboard. So if I was a lap ahead of him, then I go, all right, well, let's see how long it takes to get to two laps ahead. Let's try and make it three laps ahead and then four laps and then just built on it. And then before you know it, you've got you know ten laps to go, and you're like, oh, I can do 10 more laps. That's easy.

Joshie 52:09

Um now Clay, you're someone who has had to work incredibly hard for success. I mean, you didn't grow up running it something that you accidentally fell into. Um if someone listening to this conversation feels like they're either not good enough or they don't fit well enough or don't belong to running, what would you want them to hear?

Clay 52:37

Um you you really only get one chance at this life, and you never get to live the alternative. So I remember very early on, um, there was a run in Brisbane called the Resolution Run, which was on New Year's Day, I believe. And I signed up to it very early on after we'd come back from Canada. And it was out the front of South Bank, and I lined up all the all these people who look like runners, they were really they look like athletes. They were all lined up at this race. And I sort of found myself seating myself towards the back of the pack, and then a little voice in my head says, Well, like, go stand up near the front and see what happens. Like, if if they go past you, you'll peel off to the like just see what happens. And I I moved up to the front, and I remember feeling like such a, you know, pardon the French, but a bit of a wanker. I mean, what are you doing? You're not an athlete. And I ended up, you know, coming, I think, third the first time. And I remember even during that race, while I was up the like near the front, I remember going slowing down almost so people would pass me because I didn't feel like it was right or anything. It was this weird thing. And then I had to sort of mentally change that mindset and go, well, what if you are good enough? Or you'll never know. If you don't try, you'll never will be. If you try, you might have to eat a bit of humble pie, but you might not. You might actually win. You might actually do better than you thought you can do. And that's that's something that's a really, I hope, you know, you just don't get to live the alternative. And life is way too short to to worry about what other people are thinking and to to settle into a box that you've made for yourself when the box might be just paper thin. You just poke your hole right through it.

Natty 54:21

You know, yeah.

Clay 54:22

That's always the mentality. And what I try and tell the young athletes as well is just go like, don't don't think that you've got a finite amount of ability or that you don't deserve any, like you don't decide that. You've got you've got to challenge yourself that because if you don't challenge that, then there's people out there who don't get the opportunity, who aren't blessed with two functioning legs, or who own don't have as long on this planet as you have. You you owe it to them to try and see what you're capable of, and maybe they'll see what they're capable of, and and then you'll start this thing. I don't know.

Joshie 54:54

So can I ask thing, Clay, when you're mentoring younger runners, is there a small part of you that also feels as though you're talking to a younger version of yourself? Yeah, I've I that's a really good question.

Clay 55:07

Um maybe. Yeah, maybe it is a bit of self-talk that's coming out. Um because it's not something I've I've uh naturally sort of had in me. There's always been one of those sort of glass half-empty sort of mindsets. Um the older I get, the the more I realise that's a counterproductive way of thinking. You know, there's a degree of humbleness I think that that keeps you grounded, but it also limits some people as well.

Joshie 55:40

Yeah, Chloe, I know I speak on behalf of the entire running community. When I say just how impactful you are, how you've been able to stay so grounded despite success is a truly enviable trait. Thanks so much for sharing your journey with us today.

Clay 55:54

Uh thank you for um feeding my monitor and I just if I could ever send I I don't think I could ever send enough love out for the running community and uh a myriad of people that have supported me and put up with me. Um stuff included with that as well. Thank you.

Joshie 56:22

I find that fascinating though that this uh false story of having won three marathons in six weeks has been repeated for what nearly 10 years now.

Natty 56:31

Yeah.

Clay 56:31

It's I've seen it pock up a few times. This is the first time I've ever sort of corrupted because it's normally in print media. That's kind of funny. Like my wife always says, Oh, you won the Gold Coast Marathon, did you? No, I didn't.

Joshie 56:43

Um