EP 44 | What Happens When Your Body Forces You to Run Slow?

What do you do when your body makes a decision your mind isn't ready to accept? 

For Emma Hansford, running was never about chasing podiums. But after becoming a mum and later navigating perimenopause, she found herself confronting something many runners quietly experience: the need to reset expectations.

In this honest conversation, Emma shares her journey through postpartum recovery, perfectionism, identity and learning that success isn't always measured by pace.

It's a conversation about redefining what it means to be a runner... and discovering that sometimes slowing down can move us forward.

In this episode:

• How corporate triathlons sparked a love for running
• The reality of life after childbirth
• Perimenopause and its impact on running
• Letting go of perfectionism
• Why slower doesn't mean weaker

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About Runbelievable

Runbelievable is the podcast for every runner. From your first parkrun to your 100th marathon, from walk-run intervals to dabbling in trail running, every runner has a story worth telling. Through honest conversations with runners from all walks of life, Runbelievable explores the challenges, achievements, setbacks, and experiences that connect us through running and shape who we become.

Transcript

The Runner I'd Never Really Gotten to Know

Joshie 0:00

Back in 2022, on a cool Tuesday night at training, I remember observing two runners just quietly going about their business, not in a stalking way, I might add. Looking back, it was this moment I attribute to being the birthplace of Run Believable. One of the runners, Jen, I've since become good friends with. The other, M, I guess became a running acquaintance. We'd encourage each other along at training and give Strava kudos and that kind of thing, but that was about the extent of our interactions. Candidly, over the past four years, I've only really known her as M the very, very slow runner. I'm so pleased I finally got to know M the human. Because Pace tells us remarkably very little about the person behind it, and more for someone who dares to be that reductionist.

SPEAKER_05 0:48

There's a phrase in a um Paul Simon song, and it says, I can't run, but I can walk much faster than this. And so I always think of that like, okay, what's the bare minimum I feel like doing today? Can I do just a little bit more than that?

Joshie 1:08

Hello everybody, and welcome back to Run Believable. I'm your host, Josh Christian, and each week we chat with runners from all walks of life to explore how running has shaped who they've become. Now, without realizing it, running compels us to set goals. We all know that feeling of upsising from simply completing a park run to suddenly wondering which super choose the best for us. But what happens when a curveball is thrown our way, and the body isn't capable anymore of taking us any further up the mountain. To help me understand what it's like to have to hit the goal reset button is Emma Hansford. Em, welcome to Run Believable.

SPEAKER_05 1:44

Hello, Josh. Thanks for having me.

Joshie 1:47

My pleasure. Now look, before we throw the baseball your way, that was a terrible analogy. I'd love to share a very quick moment from our Run Believable community. This week's Run Believable moment comes from Katie Mulrainey. Now, if that name sounds familiar, then consider yourself an official fan of the show. We featured Katie back in episode 40, and my goodness, she's worked through a lot. Just a few weeks ago, she tackled the Run Melbourne Half Marathon. She puts it on a mentally challenging course. She managed to take more than two minutes off her previous half marathon PB, finishing in a time, geez, listen to this, a one hour 37.51. And all of this for someone who dragged herself through her very first parkrun only three years ago. Now, Katie, you are truly a star. Good luck with Sydney when that rolls around.

SPEAKER_05 2:43

Well done, Katie.

Joshie 2:44

Yes,

Surviving a Brutal Half Marathon

Joshie 2:45

indeed. Now, speaking of stars, Em, have you had a chance to reflect on your Jetty to Jetty triumph?

SPEAKER_05 2:51

Josh, it was so difficult. And I know that Well, it was it really?

Joshie 2:56

I read that it was like conditions were perfect.

SPEAKER_05 2:58

Oh, not a breath of air in the sky. It was about 20 knot headwinds.

Joshie 3:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 3:05

For about eight kilometres of the half marathon.

Joshie 3:09

So what's that in English for someone who only works in kilometres an hour? I read that somewhere between 40 and 50 kilometres an hour wind gusts or something crazy like that.

SPEAKER_05 3:18

There were parts where I was just trying not to be blown sideways, let alone try and move forwards. Um and what gave me great comfort was um you and I met through in training, and what gave me great comfort was looking up ahead at some other people wearing in training um shirts who I knew were really excellent runners and they were walking when I was walking. So I thought it's okay. It's all right. We're just in a little part you need to walk through.

Joshie 3:50

Yeah, look, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how you get to that finish line, and you got to that finish line. Um, can you tell me how it felt once you got there?

SPEAKER_05 3:58

I think I was mostly relieved, Josh, because I did find it really difficult in the headwinds. I was really thrilled though to do a PB. I've only done two half marathons, and the first one I just went in thinking, well, it's a win to get to the starting line and to be able to accomplish it. And um, I know you had that lovely guest, um, Shona Runs Very Slowly is her Instagram. Well, Emma runs very, very slowly. Um, and but to start to get into more of a I wanted to be under three hours and I just scraped in under three hours. So I was really pleased.

Joshie 4:39

Awesome, well done. Congratulations.

SPEAKER_05 4:41

Yeah, thank you.

Joshie 4:42

Now, look, I make no secret of this. Um, you were one of two people that I attribute to being the genesis of Run Believable. And despite all of that, I've barely spoken with you over the years, and I reckon I learned more about you in that one-hour coffee we had a few weeks ago than in the four years prior. Yeah. Um, perhaps the most fascinating discovery in that conversation was your early years doing ballet.

SPEAKER_05 5:06

Yeah, it was really lovely to chat. And isn't that funny? I was really chuffed when um I saw you tag and say I was the Genesis. It just goes to show you're all in your own little world and you never sort of know what people around you are thinking or experiencing. But I I love what you've done with Run Believable. Well done.

Joshie 5:26

Thank you.

From Ballet and Perfectionism to Running

SPEAKER_05 5:27

Yes, a ballerina. And so ballerinas are very expressive but also quite obsessive. Um and so I really wanted to be a ballerina for many years, and I think at my peak, maybe around 15, I was doing sort of 15 hours of dancing a week, um, which in the 80s um there was some weird, there was a weird kind of divide between art and sport. So I never saw myself as being very like fit or sporty, even though I was actually doing something technically difficult for many, many hours a week. Um, but you're a dancer in your head. Uh so it's just been interesting as you've got older to see what you learned out of that experience. And there was a lot of things, I think, around commitment and focus, persistence, um, and that physicality that I really loved.

Joshie 6:26

Obsession. What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_05 6:28

Oh, it's a per ballet's a perfection sport. Okay. So you are really trying to per like do tiny perfections on moves over and over again. Um yeah, so that there's definitely sort of like a a perfectionism that's never reached. Um and you know, I I think I said to you I'm a reforming perfectionist.

Joshie 6:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:53

Because yeah, it's definitely it definitely plays plays through in my life, I think. A little a little bit all or nothing in my focus.

Joshie 7:00

Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, we'll talk about running shortly, but I was going to ask, I mean, do you attribute a lot of your early years doing ballet to how you've been able to apply yourself either in career or in your running pursuits as well?

SPEAKER_05 7:14

Yeah, definitely. There's a there's a mental resilience, but not only that you're doing it physically, but also that you're expressing no pain on your face while you're doing it and you're entertaining with your face and movements while you're physically doing something very difficult.

Joshie 7:32

So what smiling whilst the body's in agony kind of smiling while bleeding.

SPEAKER_05 7:36

Smiling while and so um I I do weight training as well, and and my trainer is always like, I cannot read you. I did not. So that's okay, you're not meant to, Roger. It's just uh it's a it's a you know, not meant to.

Joshie 7:56

I'm pleased that you've been able to carry that discipline forward with you. I mean, you talked before about in the 80s you feel as though there was this divide that you were either sporty or you were artistic. Um so did that at all impact how you saw yourself?

“You're Not a Runner”

SPEAKER_05 8:12

Yeah, totally. Like I did not consider myself a sporty kid. I wouldn't put up my hand, I hated running, I hated swimming, I didn't and I didn't really I was competitive without being competitive because again, ballet is about entertainment and um not about always competing. Um and you're competing with yourself, I guess, for the for a level of a standard. Um so yeah, really strangely, it wasn't sort of until maybe even my late 20s that I realized I'm I am quite physical, actually. I I do sort of really enjoy all of this sort of stuff. And even um when I said to my family, or Josh would like to talk to me on the podcast, they're like, Oh, why? You're not a runner?

Joshie 9:00

And then I'm like, why?

SPEAKER_05 9:02

Really? Yeah, I just don't again, it's a self-identity, right? It's uh it's not how I kind of go to the kids. They see me as a reader, not a a runner.

Joshie 9:14

Um But they know you run, don't they? I mean, that's interesting. There seems to still be so much misconception in the public arena, and I sort of won't talk about where some of that mixed messaging has come from, but there's even some big brands that I think have yeah contributed to this perception that you have to be a fast runner to be a runner. I mean, you enter events, you turn up, you show up, you show up to training, you give it your all.

SPEAKER_05 9:40

Yeah, I agree. And it's part of the reason I wanted to talk with you and part of the reason I like listening to Run Believable. Um, because actually we we are the ones that get to self-identify. It's our lives, it's your life, it's my life. I don't actually, I'm probably at an age now where I don't care too much what other people think. It's taken a while to get there, but we're there.

Joshie 10:03

You've done well to get there by now. Can I deduce from your email address that you were also born in 79?

SPEAKER_04 10:09

How funny is that when you're 18 and you pick an email address and you put your birth year in it and you never realise that you're going to be 47 one day.

Joshie 10:19

Well, you and I were born the same year. I didn't realise that.

SPEAKER_04 10:21

Snap.

Joshie 10:22

Good good sorts, we are. So I'm doing a terrible job of being a guide for this conversation. I've interrupted you about three times already.

SPEAKER_03 10:29

Not at all. You're fine.

Joshie 10:30

Um so you said that you're at an age where you you don't really care anymore, or you're at least able to um define your own identity without giving uh a shit at all about how that's perceived by others.

SPEAKER_05 10:42

Yeah,

Learning to Accept a Different Body

SPEAKER_05 10:43

and that's been a big part of my journey um because I I think we're talking about ballet being perfectionism and then um and then you know, holding that through a little bit. And um because I ran before I had kids and then wanted to run after having kids, your body's very different. And um it was it was a real challenge for me to claim it back in a positive way, um, because it was caught up, I think, in what would others be thinking of me, that you know, my my body's so different, what would they be thinking of me and I don't feel like I'm running fast or I don't feel like I'm running well. Um and so that was a really yeah, that was a really big process of sort of claiming back something you love but just because you love doing it.

Joshie 11:33

And I guess being a can I say this that you're a self-confessed type A personality?

SPEAKER_05 11:38

Oh, totally. I hope.

Joshie 11:39

I hope So being uh very driven, uh over achieving, um, I imagine that it would have been very difficult to then reassess what you were capable of or see that in a new way. Um I mean, can you talk to me about uh your early experiences with running, which if memory serves correctly was through um corporate triathlons or something like that?

SPEAKER_05 12:03

Yeah, yeah. So I um I was working in a corporate job and I finished up my master's of business and um was sort of joking with friends and saying, Oh, what what do you do with your time? Because all I did was work or study. Um and they invited me along to a triathlon and um I wasn't great on a bike. I'm still not great on a bike. I certainly am not a competitive swimmer, so I said, Oh, I'll give the running a go. Um, and so it was a quite a social introduction to start with. I had no idea how long 10Ks actually was, and um, but really enjoyed it, really enjoyed sort of striving and training for it and going away to Noosa or Molula bar with other people and celebrating afterwards. It was part of a team event. Um, so I really, you know, had some fun years in there where that before again, before having kids, where we'd build a whole weekend and party around it. And um, you know, I never really had goals or times, but I always felt like I was running well enough that I could be in the mix. Okay. So it wasn't like I was super speedy, but I could do 10Ks in an hour and and have a really good time.

Joshie 13:22

Yeah. You know, and usually with our um, guess we don't focus at all on times, but I think understanding what that baseline looked like for you back in your 20s is actually quite important in the context of your story. Um can you sort of talk to us then about that, I guess the next stages in your life in particular, um, motherhood changed a lot for you?

SPEAKER_05 13:43

Yeah, it

When Motherhood Changed Running

SPEAKER_05 13:44

is, and I agree with you, Josh. Times are close to nothing, um, except if you except in my case, or when you're holding some sort of stigma in your head based around um something being worthwhile or not worthwhile on a unit of measure. So um when I had uh my first child, uh a lovely boy, I've got two lovely boys, um uh it was a traumatic delivery and he got stuck and they saved his life, which is amazing. And thank you to the medical professionals that saved his life. But they also caused a fair bit of damage to me in saving his life. And um, and I struggle with um bladder problems. I've got a prolapsing bladder, which is not a super like sexy, cool thing to talk about, a prolapsing bladder, but it is it it it does change the way you interact with the world and your confidence, and especially in a high-impact sport like running. So um you're keen, you know, after you have your beautiful baby to get back to something that gave you a sense of joy and freedom and you know, move a bit of the baby weight, and um, and I just couldn't. I just wet myself every time I'd go for a run. And um, you know, you feel pretty down about yourself when you feel like people are looking, and they're probably not, but it just got all wrapped up in a whole heap of shame for me for for many years. And I think that's really why I wanted to again talk because I don't it didn't need it didn't that was it was mostly on me. It didn't need to be the experience, um but it was, and then it took me a while to realize, you know, it just looks different. I don't have to run at that pace. I can run at a pace that uh is enjoyable that doesn't cause me to have that reaction, or I can do things in a different way, but um perhaps that little combo of perfectionism, ah, you know, and and less experience, life experience, all the rest of it, I sort of lost it for really a lot of years, which is a bit sad.

Joshie 15:59

It is what a tough thing to go through. Um, can I ask, what did you find more difficult accepting the changes that your body went through or how other people perceived the changes in you?

SPEAKER_05 16:15

I think it's self-acceptance. Yeah, I think we're our own worst critics all of the time. Um yeah, uh and uh no one has ever no one has ever made a negative comment to me out on the lovely footpaths of Brisbane or in the Brisbane running community. Um it's I think it's in your head and how you feel sort of when you walk back in the door. Um and uh and that's I mean, that's on me, right? I'm the one that has the ability to change that or control that or or whatnot, but it takes a little while to get strong enough, um, as well as get some tricks of the trade. I'm not gonna lie, you know, there's there's absolutely people who can help you, pelvic floor physios, hormonal support can help, um skorts like shorts and skirt layers, there's all sorts of great things. And I'm very happy, Josh, if people want to message and ask me any tricks of the trade. Um so so leaning into some of those, but ultimately just going, you know what, just like some days you have a bad run. Um, some days you have a really bad run and and can't control and and it's okay. It's you're the only one that really notices.

Joshie 17:40

Are you happy to talk me through that process of acceptance? I mean, it doesn't sound like it was an overnight thing or even a 12-month thing. It sounds like this was many years of um, you know, reflection, potentially, like you said before, intervention as well, and I guess changing the way that you saw yourself.

SPEAKER_05 17:57

Yeah, that's a great question. Gosh, if I could answer that. Um I think a lot of women have to recreate themselves as mothers and then as an identity and as a physicality. And um for me, uh it involved um well, counselling and and psychological support, not necessarily just on that issue, probably on some bigger kind of life changes, but certainly through all of that. Like I remember a counsellor once, Josh, gave me an exercise where I had to go to bed with the dishes dirty and left out on the counter.

Joshie 18:44

I'd be awake all night.

SPEAKER_05 18:46

See? It's hard.

Joshie 18:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:50

But when I was a single mum and working full-time and and trying to look after yourself and all the rest of it, the the counsellor was like, You Emma, you can't control everything in your life right now. You have to accept that perfection is not so she she'd set me these exercises like that, and I'd be like, oh, and I'd lie in bed for an hour, and then I'd be like, I'm just gonna get up and do those lessons.

Joshie 19:18

Did you ever succeed at uh leaving them out?

SPEAKER_05 19:21

Yeah, I'm really good at it now. Now I'm just yep. Now I'm just you know what? I I if I want to go for a run, I'm gonna go for a run and the dishes can stay there or something. Like that I've it's taken, I reckon, 10 years and a lot of reading, a lot of great books, a lot of talking with friends, you know, some some definitely some counselling intervention.

SPEAKER_03 19:41

But if you don't put the oxygen on for yourself first, as they say, in the airplane, fix your oxygen mask first, you can't you really can't help anyone else around you.

Joshie 19:53

So we'll talk about some of your running goals and some of your running achievements and some other achievements, which I hopefully you don't feel blindsided by, but there's something else I want to talk to you about exercise-wise. Um can you I guess talk to me about how you're going now? Like in terms of acceptance, are you in a good place?

SPEAKER_05 20:13

Yeah,

Perimenopause Changes the Rules Again

SPEAKER_05 20:14

definitely. Um, it changes again with with perimenopause. So I know you've had a few guests talk out about that, but women do. Like you've got this child body changes, and then it changes again in your 40s, and things that I'd got a handle on all changed again. Um so can I ask Em?

Joshie 20:36

I mean, perimenopause is something that obviously most women will experience in terms of symptoms. I mean, every woman goes through it, but in terms of symptoms, my understanding from the little bit of reading that I've done is around 80% of women will experience some kind of um either physical or hormonal change through that process. But it's still something that isn't really spoken much about. No. Are you happy to help me understand, I guess in terms of your own experience, what it feels like to go through the changes brought about by perimenopause?

SPEAKER_05 21:04

Yeah, sure. And some I I think every woman's experience is different. So um, you know, respecting everyone's journeys out there, I feel like I almost managed to tick every box of symptoms.

Joshie 21:16

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05 21:18

So lucky me. Um, but I've spoken to other runners about this as well. Um, so for me, uh, estrogen helps with your bladder control as well. Estrogen, as it turns out, Josh, helps with almost every single thing in our body. So, but bladder control is one of them. So, whereas I'd built it back up through Pilates, it then um regressed again with a drop in estrogen. So that was something that I had to find a whole heap of different strategies on. But I've also spoken to some female runners who really had to change what they did because of joint pain. It's quite common to get swelling in your joints, joint pain. Overall stiffness, um, mental fog, mood swings, heat, hot flushes. Um uh if uh I I've got some terrible photos that I'm happy to share with you. But like when I finish a run, medics look like sometimes they intervene. I am fluoro red. And that's uh because of um the way oestrogen works in my body or doesn't work. So doctors have said to me, yeah, because I look at my heart rate zone and I go, I paced myself okay. Um but I look yeah, so it just it just plays up with everyone differently. Um motivation too, I think, changes and is really difficult, which is why I joined in training. Um, because I wanted, I found it harder to be self-motivated and I wanted those people around me moving positively. Um, so there's definitely ways through it all, but it does throw uh for me anyhow and lots of other women a bit of a curveball that the way you were working just doesn't work for you anymore.

Joshie 23:08

That's tough. I mean, it's doesn't sound like those symptoms are overly compatible with um exercising at your best. I mean, and to add to that, you know, you have a high-profile uh job, you've got two kids. Um, what is it that gets you out the door to exercise?

SPEAKER_05 23:24

Um, I think uh in our coffee we were joking about like you can have a glass of wine or you can go for a run, or you know, they're not totally mutually exclusive. You you can celebrate afterwards. But I sort of got to a point where you go, I need to be getting positive endorphins. Like I'm missing a trick here, right? It's Pilates is lovely, yoga is lovely, walking is lovely, but you don't, I don't, anyhow, get a positive endorphin hit out of those things. So when I thought back to my late 20s, how did I deal with stress? How did I carve out time for myself? How did I get a positive endorphin hit that was affordable and that could be done scheduled around kids' schedules? It's not a class time that I have to be available for. I travel for work, you know, it's not a membership. I I just running ticks so many boxes in that respect.

From “I Have To” to “I Get To”

Joshie 24:22

When we caught up a few weeks ago, there was one thing you said that really stood out to me, and it was about your mindset shift from I have to exercise to I get to exercise. Now that's a very easy thing to say, a very hard thing to believe. Can I ask how long it took before you stopped having to correct yourself?

SPEAKER_05 24:38

Oh, yeah, some days I still have to correct myself. Um there's a there's a phrase in a um Paul Simon song, and it says, I can't run, but I can walk much faster than this. And so I always think of that like, okay, what's the bare minimum I feel like doing today? Can I do just a little bit more than that? You know, so can I go I don't feel like a run, can I go for a walk and walk up a hill? Well, I feel like I could do a little jog, could I do it a bit longer or could I add something into it? So, and the whole I get to thing, I think was a real turning point. Um, because one of the friends that I did the corporate triathlons with um passed away really young in his 40s from bowel cancer. And um it was awful, and we all have those stories, but I think it's almost like out of respect to him like what a privilege that I still get to be here and I still get to be enjoying nature and connecting with community and doing all these things that we did together that he would love to do. Um, so sometimes if I'm feeling particularly unmotivated, I think, well, he'd love to do that. And I get to do that. Like it's amazing, right?

Joshie 25:59

It is. I mean, what a tragic story, but to be able to take, I guess, a mindset shift away from that and like you say, reflecting, you know what, how privileged am I to have the opportunity to be able to choose whether I want to exercise today or not? Yeah. Um, so good on you, Em, for I guess, con you know, consciously and continuously reflecting on the opportunities that you have and what you're what you're capable of. Now, look, long before you and I met at training, yeah, um, you and my wife Nat did boot camps together. Can I ask who was more competitive?

SPEAKER_04 26:36

Oh, Nat. Nat's amazing. Nat when Nat locks in, whew.

Joshie 26:44

I'll be honest though, I can't tell you the joy that I felt when I learned about your triumph with your challenge not long ago. Can you tell me firstly how uh what's involved in the challenge, but also how many how many times you've picked up. How many attempts? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:00

I'm a slow learner, Josh. Uh well, um so uh yeah, it's like an eight-week challenge and um it you focus on, I guess, building muscle mass, um, which is another thing in in perimenopause, women need to focus on muscle mass um and uh eating well and cutting out drinking and um generally doing all the things we know we're meant to do. Um and uh, you know, you the trainer sets up a little point system and you can track yourself. And it's I find it to be very constructive without getting too technical on macros and weighing things. It's just sort of a a guide without kind of going down rabbit holes. He encourages you not to weigh yourself. It's just a fitness test at the beginning, a fitness test at the end. They do do a prop uh like a body mass index, but that's to kind of go, are you building muscle? It's not on weight.

Joshie 27:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 28:00

So lots of positive things in there that again, women in the 90s, um, you know, that's not how we were raised. That's not how we were the that wasn't the societal construct. Um, so I really enjoy it and I I learned something each time, right? But yes, I think I did six, maybe eight.

Joshie 28:19

I think it was eight.

SPEAKER_05 28:23

Oh Josh. But each time I learned something, like a different little thing for myself, like, oh, that works, not that, or this food, you know, I like that, or I'm gonna try this. Or um, but then it just got beyond a joke where I just was like, okay, I am gonna lock in on this one. I want a podium place just uh just for myself. Like, come on.

Joshie 28:50

So it's sure yeah, eight for tempt. I mean, you locked in and oh, I'm so proud of you for for winning. That's just incredible. Um can you tell me what it was that you think made the biggest difference through that challenge?

SPEAKER_05 29:03

Uh really sadly, it's not drinking.

Joshie 29:07

So yeah, I did.

SPEAKER_04 29:10

I cut that out totally.

Joshie 29:11

I know I'm saying to cut this bit out of the city. Oh, you're gonna cut it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_05 29:16

I know. No, none of us want to hear it, right? But unfortunately, um there's been periods of my life when I've been quite a heavy drinker under times of stress, and I think that's another thing running is good for. There were periods where I thought, you know what, if I can go for a run, I can have a drink afterwards. And then you don't actually feel like having a drink afterwards. So that's that delayed thing, and then a positive endorphin. And so there's periods where I've used that, but then being in a good place, I guess, at the moment, touch wood, um, I thought, you know, you really you really can do this, Emma. Like you you understand now enough about the psychology and why you're reaching for something and alternatives and um what it does to your overall health and bones and bone density and all those things. Um, but I think in the pit in the part of the challenge, the bit that I found it was most helpful was actually just um all the little add-ons around drinking, where then you might have a snack that you weren't otherwise gonna have, and then you might miss a run the next morning because you're feeling a bit tired, you didn't get as good a quality sleep. And so it was actually the compounding sort of things around it, unfortunately, not just the calories.

Joshie 30:42

So can I ask, have those habit changes been enduring?

SPEAKER_05 30:46

I still I do still have a drink now, but I've scaled it like way back.

Joshie 30:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:53

So I might have two glasses of something twice a week.

Joshie 30:57

Yeah. That's really I mean, it's one of those things that and I'm not gonna lie for myself as well, continuing to it's almost like I feel like I'm fighting to have a healthy relationship with alcohol and with snacks as well. And I think we have to be careful as runners that we don't sort of use our running as a means of justification for you know poor habits. Um so can I ask for yourself, Em, you know, whether it's um boot camps or trying to run for as long as you can, or I think you spoke about trying to focus on lowering your resting heart rate as well. It sounds like your goals today are very different to where what they were 20 years ago. Um can I ask what it is that you're working towards now? Like in terms of goals, it sounds like you're still very driven, still very goal-oriented. Is there anything in particular that's like on your bucket list that you're working towards running-wise?

Redefining Running Goals

SPEAKER_05 31:49

Yeah, I they are very different. I mean, I think again, uh, you know, it used to be what do you weigh on the scales and how fast can you go and all these things that are really quite irrelevant if you're healthy and happy.

Joshie 32:03

Um Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 32:04

Yeah, I I'm aiming for I I would love to get a consistent resting heart rate under 60 beats per minute. Um, and I think that because I think it's a good overall indicator of like job stress, ability to look after yourself. And I think um, you know, there's a school of thought that's like, can you go faster? And then I think I've landed more in the can I go longer school of thought. So I was really lucky and I had a baby at 40. Um, but that means I will be working for a long time and I want to be part of my boys' lives, you know, for as long as possible. So there's a goal around longevity. Um, and then at a at a smaller kind of level, I sort of set myself a goal to do one half marathon every year. Um, just as a way to keep, just to keep exploring and and and keep um keep moving and and um treat treat yourself a little bit in terms of I love doing different places and exploring different places while running. So um, and now my partner Dave has kind of started to run a little bit and he sees the benefit of yeah, it's it's really good. It's it's great to have something you're working towards together and and in a fun place and be a positive example with the boys as well.

Joshie 33:28

So you mentioned before about uh about books and reading. I mean, the backdrop there is not AI. I can assure everyone who's watching watching video um that those books uh behind you are indeed real. Now, you're a very avid reader, you make no secret of that, especially running books. Now, is there a a particular lesson or moment from the books that you've read that has, I guess, uh impacted the way that you either see yourself or think about running or life?

SPEAKER_05 33:59

Oh, that's a good question. Um, so I mean, I've yeah, I do I like writing books. I find that if I can engage my brain, I can engage my body. So if I can see how someone else has thought about it or what it means for them, um then I get excited, like I get intellectually excited to try that or or or to experience that. Um originally I started reading writing books because my eldest son went through a little bit of a David Goggins, Ned Brockman kind of phase. Um, and there's a lot of positives they bring. Um, and they're two very different people. I don't mean to put them into one piece either, but I just wanted to understand what he was reading and reading about and engaging in, and so that I could potentially say from time to time, you know, don't be that hard on yourself or or you successfully.

Joshie 34:53

Apply the handbreak from time to time.

Choosing the Story You Tell Yourself

SPEAKER_05 34:55

Yeah, like success looks different for all of us. Um a moment. There's a great author called Ben Crow, and he's a sports psychologist, and he's written a book called Where the Light Gets In. And I think a lot of the stuff I've learned over the years around setting your own personal objectives and backing away from perfectionism, and he talks a lot about the stories we tell ourselves. So I could tell myself I'm not a runner, I could tell myself I'm a very, very slow runner, I could tell myself I'm a walking bladder explosion embarrassment, or I could tell myself that I'm a really persistent person who loves moving their body outdoors. Or all of those stories could be true, but let's pick the one we tell ourselves that is really going to give our life value and meaning. Um so some of those sports psychology books I think are really good life psychology books. That's that's one that stuck with me, Ben Crow.

Joshie 35:57

When you and I met, there there was one thing that you said, um, and I don't know if it's from that book or or or another one that you know, to try and lean into exercise like you lean into life. Um now that's something that I am keen to explore about what that means to you. Because I I thought about that afterwards. And if I was to if I was to lean into exercise like I lean into life, I'd be a lazy fat fuck who wouldn't make it to the start line. So I think for me, I'm probably well I'm probably better off leaning into life like I lean into exercise. But anyway, um can you tell me where that phrase I guess comes from and what it means to you?

SPEAKER_05 36:29

Yeah, okay. Well, I think you, you know, we're really lucky. We have this one life and we get to think about it and make it ours and make it meaningful. And um, for me, I I want to feel connected and I want to feel like I contribute to to people and society at large, and I love adventure and experiences. And so all of these things in my mind, um, it's not about how your session or what your training did that day. It's about the fact that I will continue to get to do all of those bigger things in my life if I lean into exercise. So I think again in my 20s, it was how do I want to look? And now it's not about that at all. And I'm probably fitter than I've ever been because it's how do you want to live? How do you want to engage in the world? I want to move my body outdoors, I want to meet new people, I want to hear their stories, you know, I want to hear all the amazing things they've seen while doing that. Um, so uh, but there's definitely days the couch is the couch wins to Josh. Definitely.

Joshie 37:42

So can I ask with this? Um it almost sounds like a paradigm shift in your mindset. Has it changed how you show up either at home um or or at work?

SPEAKER_05 37:52

Yeah, definitely. Um I mean, I've I've definitely kind of beaten some of that perfectionism out of me. Um I try and bring a sense of fun and joy into things. I've definitely tried to readdress kind of my experience of stress, as in really most a lot of the time stress is something you've created for yourself. It is a stressful situation, but there's you've always got a choice. You can't control what happens to you, but you can control how you respond to it. So I've really tried to kind of keep that um top of mind. Um, I used to be one of those um people who always packed their running shoes, but they never got out of the suitcase. They just Okay. Yeah, they just hung in the suitcase. Just but now I um I think with that whole, well, it doesn't have to look perfect, we'll put them on. And if it's a walk around the block when I'm traveling for work, it's a walk around the block. Like that's still 10 minutes more.

Joshie 38:59

That's worthwhile. Pro progress over perfection.

SPEAKER_05 39:03

Yeah, that's right. That's right. So, and then you know, normally when you get going, you go, I can do 10 minutes more, feel all right. And before you know it, you're running a half marathon, Josh.

Joshie 39:15

So

Proud to Be a Slow Runner

Joshie 39:17

one thing I do want to run past you. I mean, you talked about your mindset shift having assisted, at least to some extent, of breaking that perfectionism. So if you were to look back at your younger type A personality self, um and if they were to tell you that you'd be proud to be a slow runner rather than a frustrated, faster one, do you think that she'd believe you?

SPEAKER_05 39:45

No. Nothing at all. Isn't that awful? But I guess there's a reason that we all get to grow older and and you know, wisdom comes from experience and all of that sort of stuff. I I I just would have looked at you and it would not have computed. I just, you know, would have been, well, I need to achieve. And I wouldn't even think I'd know why or what I was achieving. It was just this driven kind of drumbeat, I guess.

Joshie 40:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:17

Um but yeah, it's it's it is funny to to look back and think, well, you're having more fun with it and you're actually running more or exercising more or enjoying it more, even though um yeah, you've let sort of stuff go.

Joshie 40:34

One final thing before we finish up that we like to ask all of our guests. Um, so looking back on your journey, what would you say is the biggest lesson that running has taught you about yourself?

SPEAKER_05 40:46

I think it's to just keep going. Like I think I think it's really simple. You know, there's it's it's as hard as we make it. It's actually really just simple. You just keep going, keep putting one foot after another. Um there's that there's that just keep swimming on on the finding Nemo movie, kids' movies. And I did get a shirt that says just keep running. Like just keep running. It doesn't matter what uh what's happening, you just keep moving and and it'll all sort of fall into place.

Joshie 41:23

I think your story is a really important reminder that success in running isn't always measured by uh, you know, pace, distance, or PBs. Sometimes it's purely about just showing up and appreciating what our postpartum perimenopause of bodies can do. After we stopped recording, Em asked me what conclusion I'd come to about why she ran so slowly. I'll be honest, I was stopped in my tracks. After some time to reflect and being brutally honest, I guess I assumed that she wasn't capable of running any faster. Didn't I feel like a fool after we spoke? Clearly I'm not completely immune to subconscious judgment. If today's conversation with M has resonated with you, or there's someone in your life who you think would really appreciate hearing it, we'd love for you to share this episode with them. Next week on Run Believable, we speak with an Australian of the Year finalist about what drove her to chase extraordinary running goals purely for the benefit of vulnerable groups.

SPEAKER_02 42:31

I walk half of those things. So it's like you just have to get to the end in any way you possibly can. If you are wanting to do something for advocacy and stuff like that, too, it's it's such a great way to push yourself along.