Beyond The Oars
Beyond the Oars is World Rowing's official podcast. Covering everything that relates to international rowing at the highest level, hosts Peter O'Hanlon and Christine Cavallo bring you the latest news.
With exciting guests from all over the globe, Beyond The Oars keeps you up to date on what is happening in the World Rowing circuit - classic, coastal, and connected.
Beyond The Oars
Concept2's Pete and Dick Dreissigacker - Episode 7
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In this episode, Christine and Pete chat with Concept2's Pete and Dick Dreissigacker about their brand, how it came to be, their plans for the future, and rowing in general.
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Welcome everyone to episode seven of Beyond the Oars World Rings relatively new podcast. My name is Peter Hammond. I'm joined by co-host Christine Cavallo. And we've got an episode for you today. But we'll tell you a little bit more about our main guests in just a moment. And I think we'll start with a little bit of news. What's generally going on in the world of rowing? There's so much going on, but we do our best, we do our absolute best to try and condense it down into some key bits that are going on generally in the world of rowing. But if you have anything that you would like to hear more about, we're always open to hearing from you and seeing if we can fit it into a new segment for a future episode. But I think it wouldn't be right to start this episode of the World Rowing podcast without talking a little bit about the fact that the World Rowing season of on-water competition is about to kick off. In just a few days' time, we have this weekend first world rowing cup of the season to be taking place in Seville. It's the first time an elite world rowing event's been there since 2002, would you believe that? And I think anybody who's been following world rowing events through the last few years will know that the World Best Time of the Women's Single has been held by Rumiana Nekova since that event back in 2002. So a very, very long-standing world best time. And considering how we've seen so many world best times fall on the ergos through recent weeks, and knowing what we know about what the temperature is going to be doing in Seville this weekend, who knows? We might have some really, really fast conditions for the 499 odd athletes um taking part. Um 213 crews, so it's a big old event, as are most World Cups. Um but this kicks us off on what is the World Cup trio or C or series. Um before two weeks, in two weeks' time, we're in Plottiv, Bulgaria for World Cup 2, and two weeks after that, the Lake of the Gods, the Ruxay, in Lucerne, and that is our 1-2-3 of the three World Cups starting uh just this weekend. So you can find out a lot more information about that on the World Rang website where the Seville World Cup page is hosted. Um, but yeah, lots to look forward to. But Christine, I cannot believe how hot it's gonna be there this weekend. What did you say? 36 degrees.
SPEAKER_00I think 36, 37 this coming weekend. So add another week to that into summer. I think, yeah, it'll be warm water. I think it'll be favorable world rowing or world record conditions, um, minus the fact that you have to survive those temperatures in the air. So hopefully it does cool down.
SPEAKER_01Where are you at the moment, Christine? Come on. I am also right now.
SPEAKER_00I'm also in Spain. Um I've been on a bit of a training camp in Europe for a good bit of summer uh before we come back to some domestic racing in the US. But uh but yeah, over in Spain on the coast, um looking forward to watching this World Cup kickoff. It's quite highly subscribed for the first World Cup. Um, so we'll be cool to see that. And then Plovdiv just a couple weeks later, also quite hot in the summer. Um, so hopefully athletes have done their heat training or have the right resources.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's funny you say that because I'm sitting in Henley at the moment. It's 32 degrees. I mean, you probably couldn't hope for better heat training for at least for the GB squad who are going to be competing there this weekend. Um, I guess the Spaniards will be used to it, but uh where where do the where do the US team train for something like this? They're not down in in Nathan Benderson, are they?
SPEAKER_00They are now. Um they've they spent some time uh at uh an altitude training center, but now they're shifting to much hotter temperatures back on the East Coast. So I think it's enough time to get the heat adaptation, and Sarasota will give that to you. Um and I think there are fewer alligators in Seville, so uh might actually be an easier course for from that perspective. Um, but moving on to our next point uh for news today. The World Rowing Indoor Championships presented by Concept 2 have been officially confirmed. These will be taking place in Birmingham, Great Britain, alongside the British Rowing Indoor Championship, BRICS, in December. Uh be mindful. Um, and I know a lot of people were talking about this, but this is separate and distinct from the virtual indoor championships that were held this past February. So this will be uh in-person, which is World Rowing's new championship structure going forward to make it as inclusive as possible for people who can't travel to compete, but then to also give that in-person opportunity, um, make sure it's it's accessible and you get that in-person um, what I remember to be quite an overwhelming experience the first time you go. Um, definitely a skill in itself to be in one of those stadiums uh on a row of ergs fighting for your life. Yeah, where did you say it's taking place? In Birmingham, in the UK, up the road from you, right?
SPEAKER_01Birmingham. You've got to put a question mark on it.
SPEAKER_00Birmingham. Oh, sorry. Sorry, sorry. Birmingham, as we say in America, in the United States.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a massive venue. So this is I I'm expecting quite a step up on where we'd normally host the British Railing Indoor Championships, which is a beautiful venue of the Lee Bellodrome in East London that is part of the legacy of the London 2012 Olympic Games. But the NEC in Birmingham is massive. So uh, you know, to to what you're saying, Christine, in terms of size and scale and rows of ergos, and uh it's gonna be quite a spectator scene having so many set up um in such a big um event hall. Um and yeah, that's I I'm delighted to hear that the UK is hosting something because I I have to admit it's it's a shame that there isn't more hosted in Great Britain, considering the facilities here to host more world-rown events like the indoors, and we also have Eton Dawny, National School's Regatta was there just last weekend, and it's an amazing venue. It's the host, the home of London 2012 Olympic Games, and we haven't had a world-rowing event there in well, I wonder if since that year. Um, we had a World Cup in 2004.
SPEAKER_00We would go because the the river in Oxford would flood. Wallingford would flood. So we would uh my season was pretty good, but I know a lot of yours they basically lived at Eat uh Dorney Lake so they could get on the water altogether.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's a great venue. Um hopefully we'll be back there at some point for a world rowing event. But it does host an awful lot of regattas, which is fantastic for the domestics in the UK. Um, but also great to be branching out rowing into another site, which is the um I think NEC stands for National Events Centre. Double check that. I'm sure back check will pull me up on it later. But um, we've got that to look forward to. Um but also we've had teams confirmed for the inaugural world-rowing Shanghai Sprints, which is amazing. Uh the Netherlands, Great Britain, China, Romania, Ireland, USA, Germany, and a world team, which I'm taking to mean something like the Globe Trotters, the equivalent of uh basketball. But uh exciting stuff to see uh that line up. Uh it's made up of top crews from the selected boat classes from nations that didn't qualify. That's the world team. So uh we look forward to seeing them compete. And uh uh yeah, the world rowing Shanghai Sprints, first event of its kind. Um I guess that's something that might be your at your street. I mean, the distance is a little bit more attuned to what you actually train for, right?
SPEAKER_00Sprints, yes. Um, timeline beach sprints is so late in the season, like, and people start racing it. My first beach sprints race was in March of this year, and our world championships are in October. So, and I think you know, we've been invited to races in New Zealand that are in February and January. So I think we're gonna have soon an 11-month beach sprint season. Um, and it makes it kind of hard to deviate off to something like Shanghai Sprints or even Henley, you know, other rowing staples when you're just trying to hurl yourself off the shoreline of whatever country you're in. Um it's it's been interesting. But yeah, I wonder what athletes will end up at Shanghai across the world championship teams for each country. Will it be a development squad? Um, it'll be really, really cool to see. Okay, so now we're we'll tee up our guests for today. Uh I'm sure a lot of people listening to this episode saw the title, so this is the moment you've been waiting for. Today, we are so excited to be speaking to none other than Dick and Peter Dreisegacker. They are very recognizable figures in the rowing world as the founders of Concept 2, a company that has established itself through its influence on rowing, endurance sport, and fitness culture more broadly for what is now 50 years. Today we'll chat with them about the origins of the company and its growth and their own thoughts on the future of the sport of rowing. Uh, and also a pretty cool strategic decision that they made recently to become what's called a perpetual purpose trust or PPT. We kind of jumped into that conversation on our actual uh interview discussion with them. So, to give some background on what a PPT is, it means that the company is restructuring itself to protect its mission values and independence for the long term. This prioritizes stewardship over acquisition or shareholder pressure. Uh in the US, it's quite a rare move in business, uh, and one that really speaks a lot to the kind of company Concept2 wants to remain for future generations. So truly in perpetuity, maintaining their purpose. Um we on the Concept 2 website, it says that they strive to design, manufacture, sell, and support unique products of the highest quality and value for the benefit of the Concept2 community. And in the conversation, they really emphasized that community aspect, meaning their customers, users, employees, suppliers, and neighbors. Um and then they they gave us some additional thoughts on that as well. So in the writing of the trust itself, uh, the purpose of the trust of as they have structured it is to direct the management and operations of the company in a manner that ensures the continuity of the company's corporate mission and operations and makes a positive impact on all members of the company's community, including those users, customers, employees, suppliers, and neighbors. And from a product perspective, the trust's objectives are to design products and services that are innovative, high quality, long-lasting, and provide excellent value while improving people's lives. So I know that was a lot of words, but they tell such a fantastic story as we're speaking with them. Um, so really excited for everyone to hear that conversation. I mean, Pete, I I thought it was great.
SPEAKER_01A really fun chat. And you know, they're so lovely to talk to as well. I mean, there's so much history to what they've created, not only as a company, but how everybody's seen it sort of branching to new disciplines or mechanical movements that are all enabled, and I learnt a lot, are all enabled through um their algorithm and the the the what would you call it, the um the sort of flywheel combination with the PM5 and the algorithm and their ability to innovate around how they can help more sports is just such a fascinating conversation. But the bit that stood out for me, I think, from that whole chat, you go into a lot of different avenues, is as you say, Christine PPT, the sort of innovation. For me, the bit was to that was where the name came from. Um, and I won't spoil it for everybody, but um I I liken it to uh um the origin story of WD40. And uh it's a fun, it's a it's something that I had no idea that that's where the name came from and concept two. So lots for us to an interesting bit to come out of this episode, aside from all of the things that you know find interesting about a rowing machine manufacturing company and and appreciate the romance, which I think it is, in that perpetual purpose trust story, and the enthusiasm from them to want to maintain that vision, values, purpose in the organization, and protect it. Um I think it's protect it from profit hunting over capitalism that can tear into that in the wrong way. So yeah, that was a really, really nice channel.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was an interesting uh, and and you'll you'll hear about this in our conversation, but there's a really big emphasis on innovation from day zero of what they've been doing and how they've been living their lives. So to see that kind of be the core of the company makes it a really interesting conversation about where they see the sport going as well as the company. Um, but you know, something we didn't ask them about that uh really, because we're we're speaking to them with video, so we can see them both speaking, speaking to each other. And it's so clear that they get along so well. Like, I don't know if my sister and I could start a company, is what I'm saying. Much less row a pair together, which they did. So um it's quite cool to see how they throughout their whole lives have you know been able to build the shared value company together with them and their family and their community and and keep to put keep putting that forward. So we hope you enjoy the conversation. Thanks. Thanks for listening. Okay, so this is a conversation that I think since we have begun the podcast, truly, or when the concept of this podcast was even created, uh these names have been on the top of our list to have a conversation with. So uh Peter and Dick, I'm so excited to welcome you both to the World Rowing Podcast. Thank you for joining us.
SPEAKER_04No, it should be fun.
SPEAKER_00Um, so we're gonna start, I think, chronologically, as best we can, um, all the way up to today and maybe into the future, but this year marks the 50th anniversary of Concept 2. Um, so not to age either of you and how long you've been working on this incredible company, but um, I want to rewind because I know you both have your rowing backgrounds that predate even concept two, and you both went to incredible universities. You could have become anything, you know, the world was your oyster. Um, what for for both of you, uh, and maybe, you know, uh we we can go into you know all the design of the school, the the company and how you approached uh concept two, but pre-concept two, what did both of you want to be when you grew up?
SPEAKER_03That's a great well I'm I'm older, so I'll start. I mean, I I I learned how to row at Brown University and I was also uh engineer there. So I thought I, you know, would do engineering work. Uh but when I graduated, you know, I went to work for uh Westinghouse at a a big plant in Philadelphia, um, which actually was fortuitous because at that point in time I didn't think I would probably ever row again after I graduated. But since I was living in Philadelphia, I happened to uh was walking by um Boathouse Row and somebody called down to me from the from the porch at Vesper and said, Hey Dick, what you know, and turned out it was Mike Vespoli who was rowing there, and he said, Why don't you come and row with us since you're gonna be here? Be be in the area. So, you know, as much as I felt I was sort of done and going on to a career in engineering, um, I c I kept on rowing it for Vesper. Um I was also working for this big company. Uh there was some advantage because it kept me out of the draft, which we were in the middle of the Vietnam War in the in those days. And um, you know, along with lots of other people, I had to decide what to do, but the job at Westinghouse kept me out of the draft. Um and I think working there, it kind of uh I don't know if disillusioned is the right word, but uh working for a big company didn't exactly turn me on. So I started thinking about you know how it'd be eventually to, you know, sort of do my own thing. So then um at that point uh after the 72 Olympics, I was um kind of kicking around what wondering what to do next and um wound up going out to uh coach at Stanford and um also get uh industrial engineering master's degree. And at that point I'll turn it over to Pete because that that's when he enters the enters into the story.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, as far as what I wanted to be when I grew up, um for some reason I I always had this idea of uh product design as what I wanted to do. So that's why I did go to Stanford as a undergraduate and then as a graduate year. They had a very unique program in in product design in the engineering department. And um it was basically right up my alley what I wanted to do. Um actually in the course of of school, I I realized that uh I I almost had this idea that I would turn turn that around and uh get into it being an illustrator because I I do a lot of drawing all through my forever, and um I found that uh I was able to do some of the uh not the engineering courses, but some of the uh other kind of liberal arts courses. I was able to do reports as uh drawing essays instead of having to read the books and do the writing. So I enjoyed that so much. I thought, well, this could be another career for me. Um but then uh yeah, okay, so then Dick comes out to Stanford to coach. Um at the time I'd be been uh heavily into track and field. I was a discus and a juttler. And um, but uh as a graduate student I was no longer eligible, so Dick coaching and says, you know, why don't you you why don't you uh come down and and I'll teach you how to row. And so that's really when I started rowing, I said uh as a graduate student in college. And uh we rode together in the pair, which was uh you know, it was a great thing for two brothers to get sort of back to know each other and row in a pair. That's sort of the ultimate test, you know. Are you gonna make it in in the future? So that's that's kind of how we got up to the that point in time where we were rowing together and um and thinking about what's the next phase, and thought that we could maybe get into some sort of a a business together.
SPEAKER_01Dare dare I ask before because it sounds like you had a pretty good combination there of sort of athleticism across the both of you and anyway, an interest and enthusiasm in rowing. You were sort of Dick, you were coaching, Pete, you were competing, and you're also on the track and field side of things as well. Um I can't imagine a world pre-concept two or pre-ergo to train on. How did you train off water, just out of curiosity, for the stamina component of rowing training? What was that world like? Well, it dictates that one.
SPEAKER_03Well, uh, you know, I mean they did have ergometers back then. They, you know, it wasn't um most most places, well, most college programs didn't have any. It was only the more well-endowed rowing programs that had the um either the gamut ergometer or um there were some even before that, but they were big, expensive uh in those terms in those days. Um so you really didn't train on the ergometer, you only tested on them because they wanted to, there's only you might have one or two in the whole boathouse at Stanford. We had one which was a prototype of the gamut ergometer, and you know, it was a you had to switch it from port to starboard. So one day you'd test all the port guys, and the next day you test you'd switch it over all these undo all these bolts and switch everything around and you'd test the other guys the next day. But because it was a test, everyone um never had a chance to really come to terms with the ergometer in terms of knowing how to pace yourself on it and whatnot.
SPEAKER_01So it was always a real that's what I was wondering because it sounds as though Yeah, it was it was it was tough.
SPEAKER_03It was not a as pleasant. Well, I I wouldn't say that rowing on New York now is exactly a pleasant experience, but it was even worse when you never had a chance to really figure it all out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but I can imagine there'd be a lot of debate over your choice of words there, Dick. But but a lot more pleasant, I can imagine that the prior to that, from the sounds of things, the only way to get some stamina-based training was to be on the water. So when the weather was bad, I guess there wasn't any way to train other than weights in the gym.
SPEAKER_03Weights and you know, running hills. You know, even all through college, we the the big off-water thing was running hills. And at Stanford, we run hills. I mean, Christine's knows the hills back behind the campus there. We'd you know, we do intervals on those on those hills.
SPEAKER_00We would do intervals on those hills at at Stanford, the dish trail is what it's called. And there's uh it's the underneath that dish uh trail. It's all these hills. Underneath it is a particle accelerator. So it's you know, it's it's it's a research territory for Stanford, and over top of it, they've made all these gorgeous running trails. Um, but I have some pretty dark tunnel vision memories of that field as well. Um, so it's alive and well, those hills. Um but you uh when when building concept two, I think my first question on the company specifically uh is how you picked the name. Because it's not it's not rowers, rowingmachines.com. I guess it wouldn't have been.com, but it's not rowing specific. You have flexibility in that name to you know start in oars and move to ski ergs and and so on. So you have this agility. Did you always think it was going to be a sport company when you named it?
SPEAKER_04No, in fact we'll we'll start with the name and why we named the company sort of this ambiguous name, was that in the beginning of uh the company, we thought that our idea was that we would be more of a design company that would um bring ideas to a certain point and then spin them off and you know and work with second companies to actually fulfill the idea and produce it and things. And um sort of building on your product design background, is that why right, right, and not necessarily not at all a a sports-specific company like this. The at the time the ores were kind of a a thing that we could do ourselves to pay the bills, basically. That was the idea, as we did these other projects that we would uh get to a certain point and then sell off or spin off or something. Um so that's why we wanted a more generic name for the company so that uh we weren't locked into one thing because at that point we had no idea that we'd be involved with fitness equipment at all. Um and the reason why that was the idea is that my master's project in product design was a backpack that was done kind of in sort of in conjunction with the North Face company. And the process for developing the design is a very uh academic process where you would come up with as many possible solutions to the to the design problem as possible, and uh you know expand on the ways of uh doing that, of solving the problem, and then analyzing those and picking the best one. And in the course of that, I had um probably five different design concepts that I was working with ways of solving that uh design problem. And the one that actually turned out the best was the second concept, and so I had papers on the wall that listed out what these were, and one was concept two. That's the design that ended up being the uh the product, the the backpack product. Going back another step. Dick and I were taking a class together in his master's and my master's, it was it had to do with how to start a business and write a business plan. And you need to form groups and then write a business plan about something, a business that you are gonna start. And so we kind of chose at that time to write a business plan about how would you go about manufacturing this backpack or academic only. And um so when when uh we called that company Concept 2, because that was the second idea that turned out to be the I'm getting I'm rambling here, but um so then we we decided we actually used that business plan draft as kind of a model for starting the company once we moved to Vermont as well.
SPEAKER_01I love it. It sounds like the origin story of WD-40 as well, but you didn't you didn't take 40 iterations of it, right? Because WD-40, I think, was literally water displacement 40, their 40th attempt, right? You guys I didn't know though, that's fascinating. So it was actually your second attempt of a backpack that led to it, not at all. I had in mind that your first attempt was, you know, a bicycle wheel with a chain, you know, the sort of the what you'd imagine the first crack at a rowing machine might look like, um, or a weight that you pull up and down, and that might have been concept one. I didn't know it was a backpack. That's yeah, fascinating.
SPEAKER_04But it's the same idea as what you say, that that there's a lot of different ways to um to accomplish something, and and you know, how do you find the best way? And typically it's by expanding your thinking about as many possible ways as you can do it, and then uh homing in on the one that seems to be the best.
SPEAKER_00I find that that way of thinking works better when you're your own boss, though. Maybe sometimes. But clearly you've been able to you know really hit the round running and and grow something quite quite big out of that failed backpack, backpack part two, and now concept two.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's actually uh a method of thinking that we uh use in every aspect of the company now. Just the idea of you know, how do you solve this problem, whether it's a problem of designing product or a problem of of you know whatever, how do you uh put two pieces of ore together?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we call it the concept two problem solving process. You don't always run with the first idea, you think of many ideas and then pick the best one.
SPEAKER_01Love the sound of that. And then and then that scene you I feel like concept two's had an explosion into new categories through through recent years, with I mean, that might be my own naivety in terms of the the launch dates for things like Ski Erg and Strength Erg and other things like that. And and has this all been born through a sort of reinvigorated enthusiasm to find more problems to solve, or has that come out of that same sort of process, would you say, or is that something that's sort of just expanding and considering new markets? What's what's been the origin story to some of the other things we see coming out of your the locker?
SPEAKER_03Usually it's it's we we think that there's something that we want to have ourselves, or there's some connection there to some need that we see. Now, the ski erg is an interesting one. Um people had been using the rowing erg and sort of standing it up on a wall and use it for ski training for for quite a few years, but then my daughter, who is a Nordic skier, graduated from high school and um had a very bad ankle sprain and was going to Dartmouth and going to be on the ski team, and all summer long um she needed something to train. So we rigged up the rower on on the wall and set it up so she could pull pull the chain down like you were skiing. And so we were thinking that boy, this we could refine this and turn it into something that's a little that that does this job a lot better than just kind of repurposing the row erg. So that kind of was the impetus for the for the ski erg. Um and then of course, as you know, Pete and I both age, you realize the biggest thing you do is lose strength. So therefore, the strength erg.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think we're gonna be.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna ask what the strength erg is for because that is a humbling machine. I don't know who you ran it by, but it is we have them at a lot of the national team training centers now, and everyone like hopes the coach isn't looking at them when they're picking who gets to be on it, because it is it's you need strength. That is it's an understatement almost in the name.
SPEAKER_03And you know, so you know, we didn't want to be spending a whole lot of time in the in the weight room lifting weights and everything, and strength erg's quick, easy. You don't get hurt too easily with it. It's fairly safe.
SPEAKER_00Do you have any adoption insights on who's using the strength erg? Like is that going in generic gyms in the same way the Concept 2 has, or are private individuals buying it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04What's what I think is interesting is the uh initially when when we were working on it and we were thinking about ourselves, you know, that people who who were trying to maintain strength in as they age, and there was kind of a move or a thinking in-house that okay, we're making a product for the older generation. And what's happened is is uh it's uh I mean you see a lot of like meatheads on this thing too now. That uh I think because like you say, you can't really uh beat it, it's kind of like the the growing machine you can't you can't beat it, and it always gets you, and especially um uh people are are doing uh kind of duration kind of workouts on it, like how many kilogram meters can you get in a minute, you know? And you can't really uh it'll take as much as you can give it, and and these people are challenging themselves. You know, the not only not only the uh geriatric crowd, but you know the young people who are just trying to beat up on it.
SPEAKER_03And I think this this is a a testament to the um to the uh measurement and the feedback. You know, you you get reliable feedback uh from it. And so you can kind of score yourself, you can track, track your results, get graphed on your um your data uh path.
SPEAKER_00So everywhere it's just kind of known that anywhere in the world you go, if you find a concept two, you know the number you're supposed to be hitting, right? And I think that's I'm you have obviously put so much RD to making that look easy because I've been on a lot of other rowing machines where depending on where I am or what model it is, I'm setting a world record and a personal best, or I'm having the worst day of my life. So uh like, did you ever envision that, you know, the concept tool for training and then delivering on these time standards? Like that's people's ticket to rowing in university and getting a scholarship, right? Like that's woven into the US collegiate system, the national team pipelines of every country. Like, did you how early did you see that and say, you know what, like this this is going to become a staple?
SPEAKER_03Well, it was probably gradual. Uh you know, it was gradual. I mean, in the beginning, the first running machine wasn't that accurate or repeatable, but it was probably more repeatable than the other ergs that were out there. You know, the uh more of the friction type ergs, you know, where you had the weight hanging on the on the flywheel and breaking the flywheel with friction. Um but it wasn't until the PM1 where we were able to really standardize the uh the scoring. That was, I think, 1986, probably, I believe, the the PM1. And at that point, I think if we probably realized that that was an important thing for us to to standardize it and create a and create a worldwide standard.
SPEAKER_01And is there much difference across the built in with the machine? Sorry, is there much difference between the different types of machine for how that science works in in converting to distance and and time across the row erg versus the ski erg, etc.? I I'm I I'm trying to work out the it's relatively straightforward to pull down on the the ski erg cables and get to a sort of two-minute split. I feel like um is it my physiology that spots the difference between how that calculation works versus when I'm sitting on a row erg and doing a two-minute split versus the bike erg. The the science that has to go behind that, presumably for the layman, has to be quite different, but they all have the same computer sat on it. So I guess to the layman it looks identical. It's just a different direction of cables and chains that are causing the momentum. But how does that work? Is that a really different set of signs that sits behind that calculation depending on the machine that it sat on?
SPEAKER_03It's it's the same um basically the same algorithm, but the different machines have different, I would call them overheads. You know, like if you're on the ski machine, you're raising and lowering your body weight more than you are on the rowing machine where you're going back and forth. So there's a there should, in theory, be a slight advantage to uh you know to the rowing machine. Um but somebody who's highly trained on the skiing machine can can probably do, you know, the top skiers could do better on the skiing machine than the rowing machine, but you know, there it it is a little bit, you know, the overheads are a little bit different on each machine.
SPEAKER_01Right. But the algorithm is the same. Wow. So is that what makes a concept two a concept two? The secret source of the algorithm? It's it feels like there's something in that compared to the all the AI, and the topic of the day is AI, right? They see it everywhere you look. And and and before that it was all the social media algorithms, but the secret source of concept two is the algorithm that makes it as realistic, then as is that I think so true.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, you know, it's not it, it's it's a very there's very um you can you can get differences in the scoring depending on exactly you you have to make sure that when you're um when you're calibrating uh uh for the drag factor on the rundown, that you're not including any edge effects, you know, it's very important. So if you depending on how you do that, you can get different different results. And it's not a straightforward um thing, which we've we've improved on over the years. The PM1 was not quite as accurate or repeatable as the subsequent ones, PM2, three, four, five.
SPEAKER_00It seems like the PM5 has been holding its own for over a decade. Is there a PM6 on the horizon or are you pretty rock solid with this for now?
SPEAKER_03I think the the PM5 is here to stay. You know, we're certainly, you know, with with ERG data trying to create more um different types of feedback, you know, and um try to mix things up a little bit, but it's still based on the PM5 scoring. You know, everything's based on that. We're just you know, you you can bring your phone or your tablet and that saves all the data to your log, you know, rather than have to, you know, get your results in PM5, write it down, type it into your log later, you know, that type of thing. So um I think you know, further improvements are pretty much going to be related to the um, you know, more of an erg data-like environment.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so we might have a chance to actually settle a conversation that happens in every corner of the rowing and gym and crossfit and high rock's world. If you could recommend a drag factor that someone sets their concept to erg to, uh maybe it's different for men or women or you know, your your physiology, but is there a range that you know based on your model of the concept to and how you've engineered that overhead? Is there a level of resistance that someone should be aiming for to get the intended effect of a rowing stroke?
SPEAKER_03I think it's very individual. And and it's very individual and it's very uh how you train, you know. So you could train for a higher drag factor and that would be better for you, probably, or train for a lower one and that would be better for you. But um, it's still somewhat individual. You know, like I find, you know, as I get older and weaker, I have to lower the drag factor. So, you know, if you're stronger, um if you're for instance, on the row, or if you're you know heavier, you there's a penalty for a high stroke rate because you're moving your body mass back and forth. So you want to go lower stroke rate, which may mean you'd be better off in a little higher drag factor. So it's there's a lot of um strategy, and the only thing I could say to that is you just gotta try it and see whether, you know. You know, just like oars, how do you rig your oars? You know, you rig them the way the coach tells you to rig them, or do you rig them? Do you do tests and rig them where you go the fastest? I would say you rig them to where you go the fastest, but you have to do a lot of testing for that. So most people just go with what the coach tells them. And if the coach is observant and you know, and is you know has taken certain measurements, you know, that might be the best way. But I think you don't really know what the best way is until you try it, test, observe, try something else. Concept two, there it is. You try you come up with different alternatives and you evaluate them and you pick the best one.
SPEAKER_01It's so true though, isn't it? I mean, because there's this fixation on standardized testing, but at the same time, when you put people in a boat, you do adjust the gearing ever so slightly to accommodate the gearing on the oars, which is a variability on what they're what makes what gets the best outcome from them in terms of the length of their levers and their strength and the conditions that they're rowing in. But as soon as you do some testing on an ergo, it's sort of the drag factor's set, don't touch it, sit down, don't touch the handle until you're told to go. Um, which which doesn't leave much variability, I guess. There's an interesting question for us to take away, Christine. What are the drag factor settings on a world rowing indoor championships? Um, what are what are they preset at? Um, we might need to put that out afterwards. So that everybody knows that when they're coming to the world during indoor champs, they are they've been training for the drag factor setting that they'll be racing on, right? Because I guess that's where we get to that standardized point.
SPEAKER_04What's interesting, of course, is that typically um on the machine, stroke rates are very low and and heavy. You know, and then you go on the water and you race at a 36 down the whole course. And uh you wonder why people don't train at a 36.
SPEAKER_03Well, well, that's training, but more and more people when they're doing an indoor race are gonna be 36. I mean, even the big guys are up there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it does seem like it's gone up in the last decade.
SPEAKER_03Yes. It's gone up because they get a better score that way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And everyone pulls the handle up to their neck. You've seen this technique, I'm sure. The as long as you can to have resistance against the chain, something you couldn't recreate on the water realistically, but you win the erg.
SPEAKER_03I I wonder if if that's giving them the best score, though, or is it a style?
SPEAKER_00I think to your point, I think people find something that works for them. And when you're doing something like a 2K, experimenting hurts, right? If it goes wrong, that is a punishing system. So if you find something in your workout style where that workout was suspiciously easy, I think for rowers, that codes in your brain pretty permanently that this is now what you do. And I think you have to fail at it. Like if it fails nine times out of 10, but the first time it was really successful and the next nine are bad. I don't know how quickly a rower unlearns that if their first experience was as positive, you know. That's how people get all their weird ergs and their, excuse me, their weird ore lengths and rigs and whatnot. Because I bought a boat because I had one good race in it, trained it for two years, did not, I sold it, trained it maybe 20 times, couldn't get it in again, but I had a really good World Cup in this one boat. And then it was a $15,000 paperweight on a racket. Okay, I want to make sure that we have have some time now to talk about uh what you're both doing with concept two today, uh, because it's a it's a pretty cool step in the company's evolution. And it's something uh, well, I I want to give give the floor to you both to discuss it, but uh it it's changing how concept two is structured going forward, um, but really embedding everything that we've talked about so far. Um and it's a perpetual purpose trust, uh, which is not that common in the US. It's more common in Europe and elsewhere in the world. But to be doing this as a US-based company is quite a cool step. Uh, so we'd love to hear from you on the how you went over the options, what else you were thinking, uh, how many times a private equity company approached you to buy out concept two before you did this, right? Like uh you probably had to say a lot of no's to other opportunities to arrive at this, but we'd love to hear you know what what that process has been like.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think you're you're correct that there have been a lot of uh venture capital folks and other industry people coming trying to buy up the company. Um and we've always found that as uh not not a um tasteful way to go as we exit the company. We wanted to uh I guess honor what has been created over time and honor the employees that have made it happen. Um I think one of the big things is you know we feel very strongly that uh the company has certain uh desired values and directions that we we'd love to have it maintain and to lose that control entirely to uh uh a new owner with different ideas just didn't seem like the right fit. And uh with the purpose trust now, the the owner is trust that's maintained with a uh the board of stewards and has certain uh guidelines written into it that um at least give it the opportunity to continue along the same lines as it is going now. Similar lines with with you know with ability to change and grow. Yeah, I mean it's it we uh started looking into this probably about three years ago and um learned about the purpose trust option. Uh we were looking at the more typical East option that's more typical in the US but found that um purpose trust seemed to even have more uh future stability to put it that way in terms of being able to maintain uh what would you call it maintain kind of an independence from the corporate world.
SPEAKER_01I I I love the sound of that. It it it sort of brings a romance to the sort of origin story and origin idea of of how you um how you came up with the the idea of what the not just what the the creative process was for coming up with new designs, but the I guess the the products that you have made and sold, if my understanding is correct, so this means the in perpetuity that trust will hold sway or ownership design ownership of future designs and how the the company steers itself, is that right? Well what does that what does it mean to you for the sort of real person on the street when when we say concept two is now as part of a a PPT, a perpetual purpose trust?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think the the the the trust is kind of entrusted with overseeing how the company is run, basically. The trust doesn't actually run the company that in the future it'll be sort of an advisory and a directional thing. And uh employees will be on a day-to-day basis are gonna be the people who are actually making the the decisions uh making the decisions going forward. But the trust isn't gonna be there looking for the uh the highest return on every decision, or you know, we gotta uh a venture capital or another private owner would really want to sort of maximize the profit, perhaps, and the trust doesn't have that uh incentive to maximize profit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so the values behind the decision making hold true, I guess, to the to the values that you hold out for the company today.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was thinking this. Um I mean, even prior to the PPT being announced, I think it's you know, you've you've said in other forums the oars are a limited market, right? Like rowing's not that large compared to the CrossFit community or the high ROX relationship that you now have and have grown to. So, you know, if you have someone who's optimizing profit, there's gonna be a lot of rowers with a lot fewer choices in the blades that they get to compete with. And I think that, you know, to protect something like that, that's I don't know any of your margins on this. So I'm speculating a bit, but that's what comes to mind as something that gets protected in the culture of this company that you know the average investor might not be attuned to or consistently value 50 years from now.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, right. Right. Um yeah, I mean on a sort of a personal emotional level, we go to um races and events, and you know, people always come up and say you know, um things like companies should learn about how to handle customer service from you guys because you know that's kind of what we we spend a lot on on customer service about keeping things going about or service at races and and uh you know it's just just an important thing that that we do.
SPEAKER_03Well, I I think yeah, basically we wanted to preserve our the you know the company mission, which is um that we're in business for the benefit of the you know employees, the customers, the users, the suppliers. Um and that's not you know, venture capitalists are not necessarily uh in business for that for those purposes. And we've heard too many bad stories about companies getting bought out and then things change and you know, you know, and and we just didn't want to want to go through that. We wanted to keep it going, you know, the way it is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and to have your whole operation based upstate Vermont, um, like you your full productions in the US, correct?
SPEAKER_03I wouldn't I don't think anyone has full production in the US these days, but you know, we we buy things from all over the world. It's really a worldwide operation. We have subsidiaries in in different countries, and um we do have uh some manufacturing. We have partners in China, a partner there we've been working with for probably 25 years, and they were doing manufacturing for the Chinese market, and now with the tariff situation, we're having to push more uh production over there for the global market because of just trying to stay competitive on a worldwide basis. So it's um and uh but also trying to maintain all the operations here by moving the stuff, actually moving some stuff back here that we were doing overseas for the same reasons. So it's different, it's a constant juggle now. It's it's interesting that the whole tariff thing now is for us, it it's kind of doing the opposite of what the intent was. But uh you know, we've had to jump through a lot of hoops to um you know make sure we're staying competitive worldwide. There's a lot of competition out there, as you can as you can see. Um we were just over at FIBO in uh Germany, the big um fitness expo, and just lots of knockoffs. Rowers, skiers, bike, yeah. So you gotta stay on your toes.
SPEAKER_04And we're actually trying to try to figure out how to get ourselves away from the fitness market, because it's such a strange animal.
SPEAKER_03Well, not get away from it, but you know, add things that add diversity, whether it's market, product, you know, you know, they give us um that we don't put all our eggs in one basket kind of thing, you know.
SPEAKER_00Sure. I mean, even your comment on the strength or it's a longevity play, right? Like that is for you know health into your sorry, the concept of health span being really strong into like complete the last day you're on this earth, you need to be building strength. And that's a different audience from someone who's trying to row a boat really fast in the Olympics, right? It's it's a much broader audience that you're you're putting yourself in front of and supporting in something that I think more and more people are valuing, uh, the ability to to walk and you know be strong throughout the good example of diversifying market segments, you know.
SPEAKER_03It gives you um similar uh stability as would be a whole separate product, really, almost, you know, just different segments within even a product or a family of products.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, interesting. It must be quite hard to continue to innovate in this space. I mean, you you guys have done an amazing job of sort of building out the ski erg, the bike erg, and and now the strength erg. Is there something on the horizon, an area that you're considering next, or is it innovations within those current sort of mechanical systems that you have? Because I suppose Dick, you've prompted a thought in me there where you talk about the other knockoffs that are coming about. Do you feel any pressure to stay ahead of them on the innovation in that area? So if they're, for instance, knockoffs on the row erg or you know the equivalent, how do you maintain the row erg as the primary one that the that the people want to be using and and make sure that you're innovating within that space as well as into new markets? It's quite a difficult difficult thing to balance, I guess.
SPEAKER_03That's a good term.
SPEAKER_04Gotta do both. You've described a good you've described uh something we think about all the time, but don't really have answers for.
SPEAKER_03Usually, yeah, usually it seems to me like when you like a lot of things that we've done happen quickly, uh almost unexpectedly. You know, you you you know, you might think of 10 different things you could do, and then all of a sudden the 11th one comes along, and that's what you wind up doing. You know, it's it happens fast. You know, it's it's uh but it could also be slow, long development process.
SPEAKER_01But I guess viscus and shop put next, Pete.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01There must be an itch you haven't scratched there somewhere, right? The athletics and field and track.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, no, there's um yeah, it's uh I mean we're constantly thinking about stuff, and you know, the whole staff here is you know comes up with ideas, but you know, again, you you have to uh the the more ideas you can get, and then you know you evaluate them and again pick the best one. That's our sort of process here.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I've I have one more question on the PPT before we kind of go into our our final segment, we'll call it. But uh it's we're not talking about with concept two, how do you stay the best rowing machine on the market in perpetuity, right? Like, or that's what I'm gathering from this conversation. The idea is that the company continues to innovate. So when you're talking about these new potential products or avenues that you go down, if you could put into a sentence or two what the core voice of concept two is that's captured in that PPT, that will, you know, that will be the anchor that this trust comes back to when it's evaluating those future decisions. What is what is that voice's statement?
SPEAKER_03I'm trying to think of um one of the things we um is important to us is the concept two community. So, you know, the mission is that we want to function for the benefit of the concept two community, which includes, you know, employees, customers, users, suppliers, etc. Um, and I think we we want to try to maintain the company with that kind of vision. Um, and I I think if we do that, the company will continue, continue on the way, kind of the way it has operated, hopefully, uh well beyond our our stay here.
SPEAKER_04We actually have a written statement on uh objective relative to products, and I'm trying to remember how it's worded. I can't remember, but it has something to do with um continue to pursue innovative products that uh are of uh of a good value to the customer and and fill the real need. That's not the way it's worded.
SPEAKER_00But it's great. The principle of that is great.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the spirit. Okay, Christine, we had a few thoughts on innovation, which we've sort of covered a few of them there, but yeah, I think maybe we'll treat this as a semi-rapid fire.
SPEAKER_00So you could go longer than one-word answers, but um we'd we'd love your your concept to uh what is it, the PSP, the something product innovation process. Um gosh, you said Dick, you said it earlier. And I in my mind I said it was a PSP was the acronym of it, but your design thinking solving process. Problem solving process. Perfect. Um, so maybe with with uh any of your thoughts on the following topics, just um any of the the concept two spirit or both of your personal thoughts on on um a few of the innovations in in the rowing world. Um the first one we want to put in front of you is Los Angeles 2028 1500 meter race course. Thoughts on how that's gonna change the sport either temporarily or you know for the long run?
SPEAKER_03Well, I mean, yeah, it's it's a better alternative than um what than what they did in '84 where they put the rowing way up in uh Santa Barbara. Remember, they had to do that and in order to get get a course, you know. But I mean the Long Beach course is right, you know, it's right down in the thick of things. And you know, they had to shorten it in order to do it there. So probably a good good way.
SPEAKER_04Maybe the first and it'll be the first and the last time they do it.
SPEAKER_00Do you think people are gonna re-rig their oars in revolutionary ways to get it done?
SPEAKER_03Hopefully they'll test, not just figure out. Yeah. They probably are testing it, but I don't, I think it's it won't be that much different. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Second question, then Pete, I'll hand it over to you for a couple. Um the new progression system. I don't know if you've been following along with world rowing, but the time-based progression out of heats, making it to the semis and finals as opposed to doing a reprochage. Uh, it eliminates several rounds of racing, it allows for a more efficient program at any world championships or Olympics. Um, but it does kind of fundamentally change the way people are even racing. Um any thoughts on thoughts on this, having been innovators in this sport and tested a lot of different support over the years?
SPEAKER_04I think it's a good idea. Good idea. I mean, at the in Paris, there are a lot of people who who drifted into the finish line and got a race all the way.
SPEAKER_03And it's very much like uh in Nordic skiing, when they do heats for the sprint, they have what they call the lucky loser system. It's the same thing. You know, you take the top, the top two in a heat advance, and then they out of X number of heats, they take the next so many best fastest times. So everyone has to has to push all the way.
SPEAKER_01Which makes a lot of sense.
SPEAKER_03It does make sense. I think that's a good a good innovation.
SPEAKER_01And there are other innovations in the sport that are basically max efforts from start to finish, like the introduction of deep sprint rowing. Um what do you think about that as a further evolution to to rowing?
SPEAKER_00I think it's a good call if you need me to.
SPEAKER_04No, I think it's a good uh a good attempt. I think it, but I think it's an attempt. We'll see how how it uh pans out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's certainly different, isn't it? It's uh certainly a powerful, powerful variation of of our sport into the sprint discipline. I guess that's sort of similar to the 1500 meter change that we'll see for LA is you know what whilst it may be temporary, I wonder what it's going to do to the sort of physiology and training profile that we'll see through the next through the next two years. Um and uh I guess future innovations. Um we know that there's already the bike erg out there. Um rumors about an assault bike from concept two. Is that is there any truth to that? Or is that uh is that is that further down your to-do list that you might come up with something entirely different, as you were saying, Dick, a minute ago. That might be idea ten, but you'll go with an eleventh later.
SPEAKER_04Actually, when when we were working on the bike, we had just some prototypes put together with the ARM setup. As well. And uh it didn't pan out for a couple of reasons. The um we wanted to have the bike uh really function like a bicycle with a freewheeling where you could stop pedaling and it wouldn't wouldn't be a direct drive to the to the spinning wheel. And uh that runs into some weird stuff when you put the arms on it as well. Yeah, won't go into it, but it's uh weird stuff.
SPEAKER_01I think everybody's been clocked in the face or chest by one of those arms on the actual assault bike, and you sort of think you've stopped and then the hit the thing cracks you at some point.
SPEAKER_03No, we like the um, you know, the you know the real sport type training devices. I think we've sort of I mean, I think that's that's what we grew up with, you know, the the the row erg training for rowing, you know, the skier training for skiing and you know, assault bike where I guess you could chain for CrossFit, you know.
SPEAKER_00True. Good good point. Assault bike is good for getting good at the assault bike. Um so a swim erg by that deduction would be kind of in the realm.
SPEAKER_03Very complex movement swimming, so it's tough.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've seen some attempts at it.
SPEAKER_01I think you get a lot from the ski erg discipline of that though, for swimming, right? There's some there's a lot of parallelism there between the ski erg and what you're trying to do with the drawdown.
SPEAKER_03It is close. Yeah. I mean, you get into a little bit of trouble if you try to simulate every motion of a sport, you know, the complex movements. I mean, even skiing is much more complex than the ski erg, but it's generally the main drivers of the, you know, it it you know, it hits pretty well.
SPEAKER_04We've always tried to keep uh what we make as simple as possible. For a lot of reasons. One you know, one is cost, one is uh durability. And when things get too complicated, they uh tend not to uh work as well or as reliable. So we try to keep things simple. Elegant.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, as proven by how consistent you've been able to deliver someone's concept two split anywhere in the world.
SPEAKER_04Simple. At least it looks simple.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you tricked all of us. Okay, and the last one, um, I don't know if you were following with the Olympic committee's talk of an esports Olympics, and potentially putting Ergang into that space. Uh, you're already in the high rock space, you're clearly competing uh in machines has kind of from Crash B's to today, has been very much in the ethos of this company. But um thoughts on the esports games and what a concept two role in that would be, or what an indoor rowing role in that would look like.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, the the esports is an interesting thing because um you know, for instance, like the world championships, the world rowing championships um have been virtual and that's kind of an esport thing, you know, depending on how you define it. A lot of uh I think what the dilemma is that there's a traction with in the esport world where it's defined as kind of a there's thumb sports and there's activity type connection with with the uh electronics. And I think the thumbsport people probably have a uh it's a bigger market, a bigger following for people sitting at their desk you know on a joystick and uh and I think that they are grappling with that, the Olympic committee is grappling with that uh dilemma. What is uh an esport that is something that is uh goes along with the Olympic uh feeling?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's yeah, I think the definition, what is an esport? Do you have to have it has to be a game like thing, or can it be can it be a race, you know, that's just done indoors, like on a you know, with machines like that. The other thing that's yeah the other thing that is is possible is with the Olympics is the you know the sport of fitness. What is that? You know, that's like your high rocks, your CrossFit, and a whole bunch of others that are sort of starting up, you know. How is that gonna shape up? We don't really know.
SPEAKER_00So we could see the concept two fish game make an appearance at the Episode.
SPEAKER_03Well that's what it would be. That's what we're doing. I think that's kind of stuck in the middle of the fish game, isn't it? It's neither a race nor a real punk sport game.
SPEAKER_00You know, it's it's kind of I think it's the future, is what I'm hearing.
SPEAKER_01I love it. It sort of bridges that gap like Tri Atlan have tried to do with the Super League, where you have it all on Zwift and you have them swim in a lake, but then they do the run on a treadmill, they do the cycle on a on a bike, on a static bike. Um, but then it's all represented with avatars, and that allows you to do the whole thing, I guess, from home in the future at some point. But um, yeah, I have to say though, uh Peter, Dick, thank you for today. Um, I mean, this has been one of those conversations that I've been dreaming of having since I think I first finished my first test on a rowing machine, thinking who on earth designed this machine from hell that has given me so much hard time in my training, but is just yet so effective. And I think that all rowers around the world can't deny the effectiveness of training on a content two rowing machine as critical prep for whatever you do in the world of rowing, whether that's just your health and fitness and your leisurely Sunday skull or paddle or or your training to the elite top level of world and Olympic competition. Um, and yeah, you don't dream of one day talking to the people who came up with the idea and uh actually made it put into practice and and hearing the sort of evolution and origin story of how it evolved and how the business has um you know branched out into new areas of mechanical training, you know, or frameworks and and the and the the sort of future growth story supported by your um perpetual purpose trust, which which sounds great. So um look, I uh this has been a fascinating conversation for me, Christine. I think it has has been for you too, and uh really appreciate you taking the time. I know that our listeners will be um chomping at a bit to come back with questions for us all all later and off the back of this. But um, in the meantime, thanks ever so much and all all the best for the next evolution of concept two and and look forward to seeing where you take it.
SPEAKER_03Great. Yeah, it was fun. Fun to talk about it. Yeah, thanks. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.