Saif Hameed [00:00:00]:
Some fun insights, to be honest. I think one is that there are reasonable chunks of consumers that are prepared to pay more for sustainable products. Some of them will pay a bit more, some of them will pay a lot more. The second is that brand Trump's label. When it comes to shaping sustainability buyers viewpoint, they will tend to recognize the sustainability of a brand irrespective of whether the label is necessarily what's driving that perception. The brand is kind of the overarching thing that they anchor on. The third is that consumers think they know very well what they're looking for when it comes to sustainability. But actually when you start to pick that apart, it's much less clear that they actually know what they're looking for or what is sustainable.
Isobel Wild [00:00:51]:
I'm Isabelle Wild. Welcome to the State of Sustainability Podcast, a show for professionals transforming corporate sustainability strategies brought to you by Altruistiq. Today we're going to try and understand the sustainable consumer. Having recently run our first set of consumer insights, we're going to put a spotlight on them today to explore the sustainable consumer profile, the key factors that influence their purchasing decisions, their perception of sustainability, and the brands that they trust. So Saif, before we get going, there are lots of surveys out there. What do we try and solve in particular with this one?
Saif Hameed [00:01:34]:
Yeah, well I see we've seen a bunch of the surveys that were out there and I think there are some really good ones, frankly. So I really liked the McKinsey Nielsen survey from a couple of years ago on consumer behaviors when it comes to sustainability. There was another survey I think from Bain & Co. That I read some time ago, which covers also some Southeast Asian countries. The McKinsey Nielsen one was focused very much on the US. The Bain & Co. One was quite a bit wider. I've seen various other surveys of wide ranging credibility over the years.
Saif Hameed [00:02:06]:
I think what they have in common is that they tend to take a very broad approach to the topic. So they are looking to understand all buyers of all sorts of which sustainability oriented buyers are inevitably a subset. Whereas what's interesting to us is almost the ends of the bell curve. We're interested in that profile of consumer that does care about sustainability and that identifies themselves as caring about sustainability. And we want to understand that profile better. And the reason for that is because we have a hypothesis that that type of consumer, the sustainable buyer, is a high value buyer for the consumer market. They tend to be younger, they tend to be more urban, they tend to have more disposable income, they tend to be very loyal. When it comes to making purchase decisions.
Saif Hameed [00:02:55]:
All this sort of was coming out of the data that we were seeing. And so we thought let's really understand that consumer in a great level of depth. I'm calling them a sustainability buyer. I think another nice term that you and I have come across, Izzy, is the lifestyle of health and sustainability buyer. The Lohas segment, which is not an original term. I stole it from Max Burgers, head of sustainability and I think we found it in a few other places. So our survey is really trying to understand the Lohas segment quite a bit better.
Isobel Wild [00:03:25]:
So from the survey that we ran, what were the three? Because we love that everything comes in threes. Main takeaways that listeners should know.
Saif Hameed [00:03:35]:
So there's some fun insights, to be honest. I think one is that there are reasonable chunks of consumers that are prepared to pay more for sustainable products. Some of them will pay a bit more, some of them will pay a lot more. The second is that brand trumps label when it comes to shaping sustainability buyers viewpoint. So they will tend to recognize the sustainability of a brand irrespective of whether the label is necessarily what's driving that perception. The brand is kind of the overarching thing that they anchor on. The third is that consumers think they know very well what they're looking for when it comes to sustainability. But actually when you start to pick that apart, it's much less clear that they actually know what they're looking for or what is sustainable.
Saif Hameed [00:04:24]:
And I think we should unpack each of those as well.
Isobel Wild [00:04:27]:
I'm a step ahead of you, Saif. I was about to ask you, can we actually go to the first point then and understand why these consumers are paying more and how to unlock that money? Because I think in the survey it said that 77% were willing to pay a bit more and 12% were willing to pay significantly more. What's your read on this?
Saif Hameed [00:04:48]:
Yeah, so let's first just calibrate because the survey pool that we have selected for is already self identifying as sustainability oriented. So we filter out people who don't factor sustainability into their buying criteria at all. But from the pool that we have left, we find that 12% are willing to pay significantly more for sustainable products. I think there's a lot more digging that we need to do in subsequent surveys, but what we find in this one is that one of the main categories of products that they apply this lens to is fresh produce. And so if you think about fresh produce as the first category, meat and dairy was actually also not that far behind. These are categories that the consumer looks to buy more sustainable products for. And I think that's quite interesting because it tells me at least two things, and I think we need more data to back this up. One is that the consumer has certain associations with certain types of products that are inherently sustainable.
Saif Hameed [00:05:48]:
When you think about, let's say, fresh produce, you think about something that's healthy, good for you. You know, it comes from the land. There's this whole agricultural element, and I think a lot of that also ports over to meat and dairy and so on as well. And so these existing associations shape what the consumer is looking for when it comes to sustainability. I think that it's also, we should also recognize that the kind of reinforcing role that health considerations play when it comes to sustainability. I think it's not a coincidence that these are also the products that probably have the biggest impact on health outcomes for a consumer. Fresh produce, let's say, in a positive way. And controlling your meat and dairy intake also from a kind of limitation of downside perspective.
Saif Hameed [00:06:33]:
But the consumer tends to associate these things together. And that's actually also what we've seen in other surveys. And so, for instance, in The Bain & Co. Survey that I read some time ago, what I found really interesting was just the correlations between consumers that cared about health and wellness and wellbeing for their family and their identification of environmental sustainability is interesting or important. So I think there's a strong correlation there that's quite cool to dig into.
Isobel Wild [00:07:00]:
And so if you're trying to market your sustainability strategy or the sustainable elements of your product, if you're also having to consider the correlation with quality, price and health, how would you go about that? What are the kind of the frameworks for your strategy to communicate it effectively?
Saif Hameed [00:07:20]:
Yeah, so I think this needs, frankly, a lot more work, not just for us, but also in the industry. But I sort of think about a couple of different aspects here. What is a purchase decision that the consumer is already going to invest some thought in? And so if you think about something that you're going to eat, something that you're going to eat on a regular basis, these are more likely to attract some sort of consideration from consumers, especially as people become more health conscious. And I think that if you can tap into that existing motion where the consumer is having some sort of selection filter, that gives you an entry point as a brand to start shaping the consumer thinking also towards sustainability indicators. So you're thinking about, for example, is this low calorie? Also think about whether this is low carbon I think that that associative leap is not as high as it might be. Let's say if you're buying something completely different like a washing machine, where you're actually, you know, in a washing machine case, I would focus on is this low energy consumption, for instance, because I'm trying to play into people's thinking of a washing machine as a long term asset that might also save them money if it works well and doesn't break down much. And so you need to think about the flow that the consumer is going through when making that buying decision and whether there's a parallel that you can squeeze in there. I think that's probably one of the more important ones.
Saif Hameed [00:08:38]:
I think the other thing is that as you are trying to pitch sustainability to a consumer, it helps to think about building on the associations they already have. So if you're looking at, let's say meat, for instance, meat and livestock, I think we saw this from Sainsbury some time ago where if you look at where they trial a lot of their sustainability interventions, it's at the high end meat products that they sell, where they start marketing certain sustainability credentials there. And I think that's because if you think about, let's say free range, for instance, or grass fed, like these things come to mind when you think about livestock naturally. And so it is not that hard for you to build in a sustainability lens into them. Let's go at the other end of the spectrum. Let's say you're buying a chocolate bar. You're probably going to be thinking about the sugar, the packaging, the cocoa. You're probably not thinking about, let's say palm oil for instance, going into that.
Saif Hameed [00:09:37]:
It's not necessarily top of mind. That's not to say you shouldn't market your palm oil credentials, but it's probably going to be one step removed for the consumer to suddenly realize, hey, there's palm oil in this thing. Oh wait, do I still want to eat it if it contains something that's also found in my soap and shampoo? Like that's probably not a direction that you want to go in as readily as talking about the regenerative agriculture strategy you have for, let's say, I don't know, sugar for instance, or the, the cocoa or the recycled content in the packaging, which are more ready associations for the consumer.
Isobel Wild [00:10:09]:
Definitely. And I actually think a brand that does as well is Walker's Crisps. And so they're putting a lot of investment into sourcing their potatoes from British farms using regenerative agriculture. But Their main communication tactic on this is that this is making your crisp tastier. This is going to enhance the taste and the flavor. And then, yes, afterwards there's great benefits to the soil. And I think that alignment and that kind of prioritization is really important.
Saif Hameed [00:10:39]:
That's brilliant because you're tapping into an existing value profile for the consumer. The consumer already associates, let's say, crisps with something tasty. They're trying to optimize for what is the better crisp for me to buy. And then you say, hey, this is not just going to be tastier, it's also more sustainable, or vice versa. That's requiring a lower cognitive load from the consumer. I'm a big fan of Daniel Kahneman's work on Thinking Fast and Slow, for example, which is one of his better known books. And if you think about kind of System one and System two, one of them is able to process very quick decisions on the fly almost in your subconscious, and the other is a much more slower, deliberative thought process. And I think at times you want sustainability to play into either one, actually, where at times you want sustainability to basically play into a reflexive action.
Saif Hameed [00:11:30]:
It's the sustainable snack bar that I might buy at the counter just as I'm about to leave. You want to lower any inhibition that I might have in picking up that snack bar. That's going to be a fast thought process that you want to sort of play into. Whereas let's say you want to acquire me as a consumer for the rest of my sort of consumer lifetime. I'm buying something like that. I'm rarely going to switch from like a hair conditioner, for instance, or some sort of product where regularity is, is part of what I'm going for. You then are tapping into a much slower decision making process and you have maybe more opportunity to shape proactively what my buying agenda is going to be. I think there's a lot of value in applying that sort of approach to sustainability positioning.
Isobel Wild [00:12:10]:
Definitely. And I think this brings us on quite nicely onto the second key takeaway, which was brand Trump's label. And I want to dig into that because one of the big insights from the survey was that the number one way that consumers gauge a product sustainability profile is through eco friendly labels. And the top Trump ones were organic and recyclable labels. Saif, how does that hold up against what sustainable brands are perceived, which brands perceived as being sustainable, and how they are implementing or attacking their kind of labeling strategy?
Saif Hameed [00:12:48]:
Yeah, I think that what is interesting here is that the brands that, that consumers value the most from a sustainability perspective are the brands that have a holistic approach to how they market sustainability. Patagonia and Oatley, for example, come up often in this survey. And I think that in many ways they have shaped the market perception of what a sustainable product and a sustainable leader is. And I think that the consumer has very little value associated with the actual, let's say, carbon label, for instance, on these products. And you know, Oatly obviously was an early pioneer in doing that. But I think that what the consumer looks for is the holistic brand, and they see the holistic brand as de risking them. Let me give an anecdotal personal example. For instance, I went to buy a new pair of Allbirds some months ago.
Saif Hameed [00:13:38]:
And Allbirds obviously has a carbon footprint associated with the product and with each variation of the product as well. So they have a SKU based carbon footprint on the store. And what I found interesting was when I was looking at two products side by side, the difference in the carbon footprint between the two products I was considering from Allbirds was marginal. We're talking about like less than 1% difference between the two across the two products that I was interested in, which was so small as for me to set it aside and say I'm actually just going to go based on fit and appearance and all the other stuff, because the difference here is so small. And incidentally, I don't know how credible that kind of narrow thing is around the edges in terms of the analytics. But at the same time, I looked around, this was in a department store and I looked around at all the other brands and I noticed there were no other brands doing this at all, which reinforced my perception that Allbirds was a sustainable brand. And so actually the brand perception was boosted by the existence of some sort of a label. For me, the label itself was immaterial.
Saif Hameed [00:14:40]:
And I think what we're seeing from the survey results as well, in terms of, for example, where carbon labeling ranks is, you're seeing that actually this is not something that consumers deeply value beyond, let's say, any form of label. They want some sort of indicator that the brand is sustainable or takes this stuff seriously. The actual nature of the label, like our survey results are not, are not definitive on one label trumping another in a way that I think makes any sense for anyone to go by.
Isobel Wild [00:15:09]:
Yeah, and actually I think it could be quite good. Just do a roundup of the companies and the brands that our respondents did vote as being the most sustainable. So for food And Bev Oatly came out top. Then Aldi, notably for their organic produce and biodegradable packaging, Innocent because of their recyclability emphasis as well as their labels are made of cardboard. And Nestle, due to their reforestation initiatives and zero emission commitments on the apparel and fashion brands. No surprises here. Patagonia came out on top, followed by Lucien Yak, Finisterre and Levi's. They were considered sustainable, mainly due to again, recycled materials, sustainable fabrics, environmental activism and ethical manufacturing products practices.
Isobel Wild [00:15:56]:
And then in the personal care industry, it was Burt's Bees, Honest company, Lush and the Otique because they were recognized for their organic ingredients, sustainable packaging and ethical sourcing. Saif, are there any key themes here or trends that you see throughout the brands that would be good to pull out?
Saif Hameed [00:16:17]:
Yeah, I think one of the interesting themes is off the cuff, Izzy. I think the average age of the brands that you've mentioned is like 30 years, maybe even older than that. Right. If you start factoring in Nestle. But if you look at like Aldi Nestle Device, like, these are obviously well established old brands with long associations, right? These are things that your parents and grandparents were buying as well. Even actually a lot of the other brands, if you look at Patagonia, if you look at Innocent, if you look at Burt's Bees, if you look at Lush, like these brands have been around for decades. And so I think that just feeds into the same point, which is these companies have had a lot of time to build a brand and it's not that they have decided one day to try and be sustainable. For the most part.
Saif Hameed [00:17:04]:
For the most part, these brands have been valuing a lot of the same things, and maybe positioning them slightly differently now, but valuing a lot of the same things for quite a long time, actually. And that association is what's stuck in the consumer's mind. And I would argue that that is shaping a lot of what consumers are seeing. It's the fact that they have had time to get exposure to this brand as a holistically sustainable brand.
Isobel Wild [00:17:31]:
I think also what you've spoken about previously is around the consistency of messaging. And I think that's a key thing that I see across all of these as well. And feeds into what you're saying around the holistic approach is that all of these companies approach sustainability in quite a consistent way.
Saif Hameed [00:17:48]:
Yeah, I fully agree with that. And I think actually all of the. A number of these brands have done a good job of positioning almost like an anchor product for their sustainability mission and really building the ethos around the value chain for that product, you know, like Burt's Bees is. Is one of the best ones where it's. It's so anchored in kind of, you know, in beekeeping and nature around one flagship product, really. I think that's an amazing story there. I think Levi's is a really nice one as well. And we know Levi's is doing a lot of great stuff also in its value chain to make denim more sustainable.
Saif Hameed [00:18:24]:
Jeans also are one of those products that you can keep using again and again. The lifetime is, you know, it's quite high. I think a lot of these brands have benefited from being able to really, really build a brand around one champion product.
Isobel Wild [00:18:38]:
Yeah. So let's go on to the third takeaway. So this is that consumers think they are savvy around sustainability. And actually, over 75% of respondents said that they are confident in recognizing environmentally sustainable products and brands. But alongside this, it also came out that the number one brand perception for sustainability is packaging. And the big materials that came out as deemed as the most sustainable was biodegradable and compostable packaging. And these were the gold standard of sustainability. Saif, I'd love to just get your take on how the perception of being confident in sustainability versus the insights of what people think sustainability actually is way up against each other.
Saif Hameed [00:19:24]:
Yeah, I find this one really interesting because I've done a fair bit of work in packaging over the years, including for multiple industry associations around different packaging types. And what I've realized is that most consumers really have very little idea about packaging sustainability. If you ask them to compare different types of materials, they often choose the wrong one. From a sustainability perspective, different sustainability indicators can be contrary indicators for different materials. And this compostability and, for example, is a nice one, or biodegradable is a nice one, in that the same packaging material, if it's compostable, but actually doesn't end up in a compost pile and instead ends up in a regular mixed bag of waste headed off to a landfill. Can be a biohazard. It can actually, I mean, it can degenerate or degrade within a big pile of trash, release methane, which is worse for the environment than, you know, and most other things that that could be happening to that packaging material. And frankly, if it's an underground landfill, then actually that could even be a massive explosion hazard as well, because you get all this methane being released from this biodegrading packaging under the earth, so you have to start sticking kind of pipes in to try and release the methane.
Saif Hameed [00:20:38]:
And then take off the methane and use it for energy. But it just tells you a little that the consumer understands only a small part of the picture when it comes to packaging. It's not wrong to say that biodegradable or combustible packaging can be more sustainable. It can, provided its post consumer life works a certain way. And the same is frankly true for plastic. It depends entirely on what the post consumer life is. And actually, if you look at pretty much any packaging substrate, the sustainability is dictated by how it's disposed of and how it's treated in the waste system. So the very fact that the consumer feels that they know what is the most sustainable indicator and they think that this is it categorically, and that's just within the packaging space.
Saif Hameed [00:21:23]:
But actually, when you look at most products, packaging may be a very small share of the emissions. There are some product categories where packaging is a huge component. And I know we're anchoring on emissions, but let's get to the other things in a moment. If you look at emissions alone, for instance, if it's a glass bottle, then I buy the fact that the packaging is a reasonable chunk of the emissions. For most other types of product, we're talking about still lower than 25%, lower than 20%, not insignificant, but usually not the biggest bucket. And so the fact that the consumer thinks this is the biggest bucket is quite interesting. The other reason why packaging often gets targeted is because a lot of it ends up in the ocean and in nature. But actually, if you look at the types of packaging that do badly in nature, it tends to be again, very specific types of packaging that do very badly in nature.
Saif Hameed [00:22:12]:
And that also comes back to how they're disposed of and what their post consumer process is. So I kind of find that to be interesting. I also think it's an opportunity in that I think there is a massive opportunity for brands to shape consumer perceptions around what is important. And if you look at one of the things that Oatly did very well is Oatly kind of reframed the narrative around oat milk, where it used to be just sort of sludge or effectively like a waste product, and you can kind of then revamp it and market it, not just to people who are lactose intolerant, which is what they started with, but then actually to people who want to be eco friendly and want to choose something that's better for the environment. And I think that that ability to build a narrative is the foundation of a brand. But I think what consumers are also secretly telling us is that they actually don't know what the sustainability indicators are that they should be prioritizing and what heuristics or proxies they should use to judge whether someone is sustainable or not. Which means that a lot of brands have this oatly opportunity where they can just reframe a product by owning a couple of issues, let's say, and that can really shape how the consumer perceives their category. And I think that's quite an exciting opportunity, definitely.
Isobel Wild [00:23:26]:
And I think we, on a previous podcast with Jess, head of sustainability at Huel, she said that the packaging, like packaging on the product came up as one of the most important things that consumers deemed for Huel to improve on their sustainability agenda. But actually when they looked at their product carbon footprint, it came out at around like 0.4 or something of their overall impact. So it is interesting that there are these, like, conflicts in what the consumer wants and then what you want to actually do in terms of your mitigation measures within the sustainability, within your sustainability strategy. If we dig into that a bit more, how do you walk the line of that tension and how do you navigate it in terms of creating those new perceptions? Like, what are some actionable kind of practices that you can do?
Saif Hameed [00:24:12]:
Yeah, I think it goes back to something we were talking about earlier, Izzy, which is I think it helps for you to identify what are the issues that you're going to really try and own. And that's because these issues are important, for example. And these issues are not just important, but they're also something you can move the needle on in your capacity as a brand. And then you say, okay, great, now I want to build a holistic brand perception around this, which means that I'm going to own multiple parts of this story. Let's take the Tony's Chocolate only example, for instance. Tony's Chocolate decides, hey, the issue we care about is fair wage across the value chain and the cocoa value chain because the distribution of value is inherently inequitable. And then they take this holistic view on that where they say, okay, great, we are going to have a different sourcing strategy to support that. We're going to have a pricing premium.
Saif Hameed [00:25:05]:
But the reason for the pricing premium is because we're supporting this strategy. We're also going to have even the shape of the bar reflect the inherent asymmetry in value distribution, which is why it's wonky. So every time you're breaking off a piece of chocolate, you're reminded of the ideology behind it. And then you say, well, Actually, we believe we should be championing a change not just for us, but also for the industry. So we're going to set up Tony's open chain so that everyone else can also use the same standards that we're using to source their cocoa. And that kind of holistic, holistic brand is what means that. I think that Tony's has bought itself a lot of room to get things wrong, frankly also in this space, which will be valuable and oatly has gotten it wrong on multiple issues in the environment space. But their consumers have given them a lot of latitude on that because they've built this strong brand.
Saif Hameed [00:25:58]:
And I think Tony's has the same on fair wage and at the same time it allows you to really shape the consumer's perception when it comes to the category. Like a lot of people who've bought Tony's chocolate and know the story and know the brand ethos will apply the same standard to other brands that they're looking at and might find that the other brands come short. And that I think is very powerful as a way to lock in consumers is that you tell them what should be important in a way that is simple, in a way that is resonant, in a way that is repetitive actually as well, and in a way that is consistent across everything that you do.
Isobel Wild [00:26:33]:
I think it's also awesome that Tony's have open, created that open chain as well. So brand retail companies like Waitrose can actually benefit off the brand narrative that Tony has spun. And by putting the kind of Tony's open chain stamp on their Tesco fine, I mean Waitrose finest product line of chocolate, they were actually able to pay more for their product and then also add that price on to create a bit of a, yeah, add that price on in the final, at the final product for the consumers who were then more willing to pay for it. And they actually saw an upsell, an upsurge in the numbers of chocolate bars that they were selling all because of the brand benefit that came off the Tony's open chain stamp, which I think is really cool for sure.
Saif Hameed [00:27:18]:
And actually they attract a lot of mission driven brands like Huell as well for that matter, which is also a partner Tony's open chain. I think it really allows them to build a strategic position in the industry while at the same time building this brand perception. So I think that there are a few of these emerging that are really very exciting. It goes back to the Patagonia example that we've talked about a bit, which is you sort of, you take out the mortgage and you charge rent to the other players. And in the Patagonia instance, Charles Kahn, the chair of Patagonia, was telling us this story in the context of Patagonia taking the first move when it comes to decarbonizing the value chain. And it's the same story we're seeing here with Tony's open chain. It's, hey, let us set up the playbook for ourselves and then actually let's allow a lot of other players to participate in this.
Isobel Wild [00:28:09]:
Have you seen any other big exciting moves that have captured your attention, whether it be bigger, more kind of established companies or smaller Challenger brands?
Saif Hameed [00:28:19]:
I think that there are two interesting shifts taking place and I'm just finding it very interesting to watch both of them. One is the Challenger Pure Play. And we've talked about Oatly, which is a Challenger Pure Play where all of the Oatly products are under the same sustainable banner head, basically. And I think that Flora Food Group is a similar story where all of the Flora Food Group products are Challenger products competing against animal based butters and the like. And I think that Oatly is kind of a startup. Well, was a startup and kind of grew with the mission, grew quite big, much like Tony's, you know, growing quite big from kind of very, very small origins. Whereas if you look at Flora Food Group, it's a carve out from Unilever. It was already a reasonably large company, you know, and it's now making this Challenger play at scale.
Saif Hameed [00:29:16]:
And I think that in many ways is a big bet on this LOHA segment that we're talking about. And I think that it's a really nice targeting of the LOHA segment because it's hitting not just sustainability from an environmental perspective, but also health and well being because it's non animal based. So I think that this sort of Challenger Pure Play is getting bigger and bigger and starts to look a little more like an incumbent at some point. I think that's exciting to see, See. And I think the other thing to see is having a sustainable sub brand within a portfolio that is kind of ring fenced and insulated and really pushing the sustainable brand narrative around that. One of the best examples of which is Nespresso, which is a B corp. And I'm kind of reminded of that every time I get myself a coffee at this point with my Nespresso capsules. And I think that you're seeing large brand families kind of both build those internally or get those credentials for homegrown brands in their portfolio and also acquire them Like Innocent, for instance, which was an acquisition.
Saif Hameed [00:30:22]:
I think this sort of sustainable brand space has both of these boosters running for it right now.
Isobel Wild [00:30:30]:
Yeah, I like that. I think the other common perceptions that came up from the survey as being important for perceived sustainability was materials and ingredients, commitments to environmental causes, transparency in sourcing and manufacturing, and innovative sustainable products. On the flip side, the reasons for negative perceptions were packaging concerns, which we've spoken about. The perception of greenwashing, the use of harming materials, harmful materials, limited certifications and a negative reputation and reviews. What are your reads on those and how they kind of fit into what we've been speaking about up until this point around brand perception.
Saif Hameed [00:31:18]:
I think it's really just telling us the same stuff with a different side of the coin. I mean, if you look at, for example, harmful ingredients or materials, that's playing into the same health and wellness narrative, you know, with a slice of the environmental impact as well. You're looking for brands that have low toxicity inputs. You're looking for stuff that you can understand the ingredients. When you look at what's on the back. If you kind of look at packaging concerns, we've obviously talked about that one. We're seeing a lot of the negative brand perception and reviews, again, tells us that the overarching brand is important. All of these speak to me about the same things that consumers view as strengths.
Saif Hameed [00:31:58]:
They're basically saying the absence of strength as a weakness in this case.
Isobel Wild [00:32:03]:
Yeah. Well, I'm going to do my best at just summarize our key takeaways and then, Saif, I'd love to get your thoughts and I've been scribbling wildly on the side, so hopefully, hopefully I managed to capture it. But I think the main one, well, the main three, so one, the consumer is willing to pay more or the LOHA segment are willing to pay more. But you've got to segment your product folio and choose those Big Bet products or those Big Bet brands that you want to focus on and turbocharge those. So, for instance, Nestle or Ben and Jerry's or any of the examples that we've been speaking about today, the other one is that consumers think that they're sustainability savvy. Whilst this may manifest itself in ways which aren't aligned with what your product carbon footprint is saying, for instance, your packaging materiality, this engagement is a really powerful tool that you can use to change their perception around these sustainability points. The last key takeaway is that labels are not enough. You've got to take a holistic approach to Brand perception and whether this be through consistent messaging or whether this be through also taking into consideration like quality, price and health.
Isobel Wild [00:33:19]:
Those are really important things to consider in your communication strategy around sustainability. Don't just use it on its own as its standalone point. Saif, how would you add to those or edit or change?
Saif Hameed [00:33:31]:
Yeah, I would maybe make one piece of emphasis and one slight edit there is. So the emphasis I would say in terms of turbocharging your marketing, let's say, and distribution to impact the consumers that will pay more. My emphasis on this is I think it's helpful to think about specific micro markets and what I mean by that is there are specific demographics that can be distributed to through certain channels and I would think about defining them in the context of specific locations, age brackets, other identifiers like get as specific as you can because it may well be that in those specific Micro Markets this 12% jumps to 30% or 40%. This is something we need to understand more with subsequent surveys as well. It could well be that 1 in 2 buyers from Waitrose in South Kensington is a Lojas buyer, for instance. And actually that tells you something which is, hey, if you are the only ice cream in town that has a good sustainability narrative that is consistent and holistic, you want to be in that Waitrose shelf, for instance, and you'll be able to scoop up the market. I think there's a lot of insight to be found when you get that specific. The riff I would make or the edit is when you talk about building this sort of holistic brand.
Saif Hameed [00:34:53]:
I actually don't think it is important to look at all these different indicators. I don't think you need to look at health and wellbeing and sustainability and try and optimize all of them. Chocolate is an inherently unhealthy product. Let's be honest, right? No offense to all the chocolate fans out there. I'm a chocolate fan myself, some of my best friends are chocolate fans. But you know, chocolate is an inherently unhealthy product and yet it can have a sustainability oriented brand by playing to its strengths or playing to the opportunities or playing to something that it's going to do better. So I would say what I mean by holistic is not breadth, actually. Holistic is consistency over multiple battlegrounds.
Saif Hameed [00:35:31]:
You pick the same target. In the Tony Strock Lonely case, you pick the fair wage target, but you say there are multiple battlegrounds where I'm going to win, win for this target, I'm going to win. When it comes to the design of the physical product itself. I'm going to win when it comes to the design of my value chain. I'm going to win when it comes to the association that my consumers have, even when they look at rival products. There might be other battlegrounds that you want to win on. And I would think about building this holistically over time in a way that can span year after year, even decade after decades, because that's enduring brand capital that you can build with this segment. I don't think you need to do it broadly across many metrics.
Saif Hameed [00:36:14]:
In fact, it's almost easier if you go a bit more narrow.
Isobel Wild [00:36:17]:
That's a great call to arms, Saif. In terms of these survey responses, we'll link to, we're going to release them soon. We also will be running quite a few of these surveys in the future. So if there's anything in particular that you think would be valuable to know or for us to kind of search on these respondents, please let us know because we can feed it into our research analysis. Thank you so much for listening, Saif. Thank you as always, and see you again next week.
Saif Hameed [00:36:44]:
Thanks, Izzy. Thanks.