Isobel Wild [00:00:00]:
So, essentially, when you're making that business case for the headcount budget, you want to reference the suite of things that you've considered, and you've actually determined that, no, I need headcount to deliver on this. Yeah.
Saif Hameed [00:00:12]:
So if I was the leader of the sustainability team, I would say, what are we going after as a function or a capability? We are going after compliance, and that is the no upside game, right. We are compliant or we're not compliant. There's a bunch of ways that we can quantify what that is worth to us, and we say that's worth. Xs.
Isobel Wild [00:00:36]:
I'm Isobel Wild. Welcome to the State of Sustainability podcast, a show for professionals transforming corporate sustainability strategies, brought to you by Altruistiq. A well structured sustainability team is essential for driving impactful environmental initiatives, but it's no walk in the park. So we are running a two part series where we'll talk about in the first episode, how to set up a high performing sustainability team, and in the second one, how to manage a high performing sustainability team. Saif, welcome.
Saif Hameed [00:01:16]:
Hey, Izzy. Glad to be here. How are you doing?
Isobel Wild [00:01:19]:
I'm very well. How are you?
Saif Hameed [00:01:21]:
I'm good, thanks. I've been sort of binging out on us election stuff, and there's quite a lot of it going around. I sort of got into it because I previously followed a lot of the more competitive elections. Like, I followed the first Obama election, for example, and then the first Trump election. And this one also looks like a real, really exciting one. And I thought there's like a. Obviously, there's a sustainability angle and lens to it in that whoever wins is likely to be an impactful person and regulatory force on the global sustainability agenda. But it's also just quite manic and certainly as compared to the UK counterpart, I feel like it has a lot more life in it and a lot more to play for, which is fun to watch.
Isobel Wild [00:02:04]:
I think it's also way more exciting to watch. Like, at all the rallies, there's famous people singing and dancing. So it's like a big performance. Not just. I don't know, if you go to a Labour party rally, it probably wouldn't have Taylor Swift potentially singing there. So there's a lot more going on.
Saif Hameed [00:02:21]:
Yeah, it's a proper production. Like, this democratic national convention was just. I mean, the amount of money that must have been spent choreographing, planning, prepping, and just the sheer kind of. Sheer sort of force, almost, of the event. Like all the speakers, all the weight that they attribute to this, you kind of really go away feeling this is some sort of existential fight. And then I actually, I watched the Republican National Convention footage as well, and it's the same sort of thing, just slightly different. So it's quite fun to see.
Isobel Wild [00:02:55]:
And Saif, before we get onto the meat of this podcast, if you were to give me a very brief summary about what you would envisioning happening to corporate sustainability if either party wins, what would those one liners be for Trump or Harris?
Saif Hameed [00:03:14]:
It's a good question, Izzy, and I don't think it's easy to answer, and I'm going to give my perspective here, but I'm sure others will have views. So I think that if you end up with a Trump victory, I think we're likely to see a bit of a step back on sustainability. I don't think it's going to be as big a step back as some are saying. And so if you kind of think about the most extreme versions, it's where you actually get rollbacks of stuff, like SEC regulation and rollbacks of some of the big pieces of legislation that have been passed, like the Inflation Reduction act, for example. I actually would be surprised if that happens in a big way. And I think part of that is because if you look at the Inflation Reduction act, for example, I think there's already enough vested interest from american business in making sure that that stays and sticks and continues that. I don't think it's likely to see much of a rollback. Even if they could get the, let's say, cross party consensus, that they would need to make some sort of meaningful rollback there on the SEC side, I think it's a little easier for them to achieve change.
Saif Hameed [00:04:19]:
But if you look at where the SEC landed, ultimately they're not very misaligned with where most large businesses are already heading. And so I think you might find that on the edges of the sustainability movement, when I'm speaking about environmental sustainability, I think you might find that some of the companies that were relatively new to the journey and where the commitment was a little lighter and a little less vested, I think maybe those companies start to step back and you're already seeing a little of that over the last several months, with some companies in the sort of american heartlands taking a bit of a step back from what they had committed and saying, look, actually, our stakeholders don't want us to do this. We're going to move away from it. That, to my mind, is the worst case for environmental sustainability. I think there is something implicit in here, which is that the agenda doesn't move forward. So I think you don't see the same sort of new legislation or the new momentum that you might otherwise have hoped for, given that climate change is a problem that is getting worse. And so while I think that the step back will be much less than people think, I think the real loss is the steps forward that you would have hoped for. I think if you end up, on the other hand, with a Kamala Harris win, then I think you probably start to see some doubling down on the strategy that was deployed under Biden.
Saif Hameed [00:05:38]:
And I think the most interesting aspects of that will not be around regulation per se, or just sort of reporting requirements and all that, but actually probably around subsidies, incentives and industrial policy and industrial strategy. And two of the big things that I think the Biden era government has pushed has been the Inflation Reduction act and the Chips act. And both of those, in my view, have really been around industrial strategy. And within that, they're trying to position certain industries as new strategic industries for the US. So semiconductors, for example, but also renewable energy and energy transition technologies. And I think there's a good chance that a Harris government doubles down on that and tries to really build strongholds in some of the key technologies that will be enablers of the sustainability transition.
Isobel Wild [00:06:27]:
School to play for. Saif, I'm going to take us back to the topic of this conversation, which is how to optimise a team set up for success. So in your opinion, what are the core characteristics of a well structured team? Are there any particular attributes that can contribute to the effectiveness of the team?
Saif Hameed [00:06:49]:
Yes, I think if we're talking about a system sustainability function, let's say, and let's treat function as the collection of teams that you might have in a large business and then obviously in a smaller or mid sized business, sustainability might really be just one team sitting within another function. I think that there are like three or four capabilities that we're seeing being needed. One is around the data and analysis side. And as the function gets bigger and you start to think of maybe multiple teams, that data and analysis could include leaning more into the it side and sourcing data and setting up integrations and making sure that the data is available. And the analysis could lean more into data science and actually building algorithms and running complex sets of insights basically to inform the business. But there's that data and analysis bucket where you're looking for quantitative data heavy skill sets and data inclined people. I think theres a second bucket which is around, lets say, reporting and regulatory management. And that is what a lot of mid sized businesses think of as sustainability today.
Saif Hameed [00:08:00]:
They think of a load thats come their way and they want to get the load off the plate. And so theyre thinking about filling out the report and getting it off the desk. But I think that reporting side will lean much more heavily over time into regulatory management, perception management and that sort of thing. A third, I would say is related to R and D. And it is, let's say lifecycle assessment, environmental science, environmental accounting. It really just digs into methodology and is much more subject matter heavy. And I think a lot of the talent that we think of today as sustainability oriented talent, this will be one of the last bastions of very specialized sustainability oriented talent. There's a fourth bucket, which I think is project management expertise.
Saif Hameed [00:08:42]:
And I think this will surface in multiple aspects within the business, whether it's in building and implementing a decarbonization plan internally, whether it's building and implementing new systems and processes, or whether it's building a transition plan with suppliers. This project management capability and skillset is increasingly needed within sustainability functions and sustainability teams. So those are the four sets of capabilities I would look at.
Isobel Wild [00:09:09]:
What about communication and claims? Does that fall into your reporting and regulatory bucket? Or would you see that as being owned by marketing external, like in not externally, but marketing team? Or do you think actually that should be embedded into the sustainability function?
Saif Hameed [00:09:28]:
Yeah, it's a good question. The reason that I haven't mentioned it is because I think that effective marketing teams will market sustainability effectively. And so I think that there's an element of bringing context into the marketing team, but I don't think it's a functional capability that is underrepresented within most businesses intrinsically. I think these other four are underrepresented within sustainability functions and they either need to come into the sustainability function, but they're like additional work that someone needs to deliver and these are the capabilities that are going to be needed for it. Whereas I think that from a marketing and commerce perspective, I don't necessarily think it's an additional resource challenge. I think it is a context and subject matter transition where marketing teams need to be sustainability aware and understand what the message is and then they should be able to promote it.
Isobel Wild [00:10:24]:
Interesting. We had an event last week which was all around managing and maximizing sustainability budgets. And one of our amazing panelists, Fran Haycock, head of the seeing this at Green Court, was saying and basically hammered home the need for ruthless prioritization when you're building a team and ruthlessly being watertight on what other must have roles. And what are the nice to have roles in your experience and from conversations you've had with other companies, what are those must have roles?
Saif Hameed [00:10:55]:
There is really no single right answer here. I think that it really differs very widely by business and by available resources. And so if you kind of look at Fran's business in Greencore, that's a new build sustainability team. Like, I think Fran, I don't know if Fran is the first person to hold that role title, but I'm sure she's one of the first, and she's certainly the first, I think, in this new generation. And so she's really kind of trying to do two things. One is manage, transition and setup of something new, and the other is resource for steady state. And the requirements for both of those things look a bit different. So if you're a business that is setting up a sustainability function from scratch, and this is a new challenge for you, then you need to resource for things like data systems, processes, and setting those things up and creating a plan and creating a strategy and designing interventions.
Saif Hameed [00:11:49]:
And that might look like a surge of resource requirement that is beyond what you would need in steady state. So there maybe you actually need support from a data architect or a person from the IT team to help you source the data you need. You might need to procure software, you might need to procure consultants to support you on the strategy. Whereas for steady state, the pieces of work that you're likely to need, I think, can be divided into these two packages. One is what are you continuing to own as the sustainability team? And the other is what is actually something that belongs in another domain within the business. And you need to make sure you can work well with that domain and upskill that domain and empower that domain to deliver on that topic. Marketing, for example, I think is one of those areas where you shouldn't try and own marketing within sustainability. It's going to be much more effective to try and bring sustainability into marketing.
Saif Hameed [00:12:40]:
On the other hand, I think that good project management expertise is going to be necessary because you're delivering programs. Good data analytics and analysis is going to be necessary. Whether you're doing that through software or consulting or in house capabilities, that's an ongoing requirement. And I think you will probably have some need for environmental science if you're in an environmentally complex business space like food and Bev, for example, apparel, personal care, where there is complexity. And I think that it is quite possible that your business will expect you to also own the reporting and compliance side of the topic if that doesn't sit in finance, for example.
Isobel Wild [00:13:19]:
What about internal engagement? I think every podcast we've had, or most conversations we, I've spoken to other sustainability professionals about revolve around internal engagement. And actually, how can you get people on board? How can you get other team members or other departments behind you? Whether it be procurement, whether it be R and D, that seems like quite a strong skill set to have, and it's quite, quite a unique and hard one to learn. Like, sometimes you have to kind of flex those muscles for a while. Would you say that that should be included within your buckets of skills that you just mentioned?
Saif Hameed [00:13:56]:
Yes and no. So I would see, let's say I would distinguish between roles where sustainability is a major versus roles where sustainability is a minor. And so I would say that if you are a reporting and regulatory compliance person sitting in the sustainability team, sustainability is kind of like a major to you. This is the reason that you're in this role in this business. Whereas most large companies will have a team or an individual in charge of internal comms, internal alignment, this sort of thing, or some shape of that role. And I would say for those people or that person, sustainability should be a minor. It should be an area which they understand and are conversant in and can work into their existing swim lane. Much like marketing, I would say finance arguably should increasingly also have sustainability as a minor.
Saif Hameed [00:14:42]:
And so you could say, well, let me bring in a sustainable finance person into my sustainability team. There are some situations where that is useful and helpful. If you're actually dealing with complex sustainability linked financing products, for example, that may be useful, but more often than not, you're going to try and think about having sustainability be a minor. For a person sitting in the finance team, where that individual also has this as something in their training and their skillset, in their scope of work.
Isobel Wild [00:15:11]:
I love that sustainability majors and sustainability minors. I feel like that should be on a business card somewhere, somehow, maybe on that point. So finance and marketing are perhaps roles or jobs or needs that you can resource internally. Are there any other jobs in investment commons that can be completed by colleagues in other departments? And what are those departments?
Saif Hameed [00:15:35]:
Yes, a good question, Izzy. I would actually say that there's a wide range. In fact, one could even say, what are the jobs where that isn't relevant? Like, the number of jobs where there's going to be no sustainability aspect should actually be very, very few and far between. And I think that there's also a question about just how broadly you define sustainability. But if you include for example, the social aspects of sustainability, and we often don't talk about that on this podcast. But if you include, for example, how you think about talent within the company and bringing a diverse range and a diverse bench of talent, arguably that sort of thing should be something everyone in the business is thinking about. So I think depending on how you define sustainability, pretty much everyone in the company should have sustainability at some level of a minor. I think there are some teams where that is much more pronounced or much more important and much more obviously.
Saif Hameed [00:16:26]:
For example, OpS, logistics and procurement, I would say, are three areas that I'm seeing as very heavily oriented and, sorry, probably also R and D. And let me maybe reflect on a few ways in which that happens. On the Ops side, a lot of the first initiatives that companies look at end up falling within their operational domain, within their scope, one and two, or just within what they can control, and the targets tend to be much more ambitious within that space. And so it is a massive gap in your program and plan if whatever team is managing operations is not thinking about sustainability. Similarly, procurement is going to be a massive lever of change for you because it's where most of your environmental impact sits. So within procurement, you need to have your existing account managers, your existing procurement teams, any procurement comms teams, and finding procurement comms teams and larger companies, they all need to think of sustainability as a minor on what they're already doing. Potentially even these are carved out dedicated roles within those functions, but certainly as a minor, it should be an aspect of the work there. I throw in logistics because I'm finding a lot of companies are seeing logistics change as low hanging fruit and easy interventions, quick wins to get going with.
Saif Hameed [00:17:38]:
And so I think that logistics, like it or leave it, will be under a lot of pressure and is under a lot of pressure. So it makes sense for that team to also be thinking about this.
Isobel Wild [00:17:47]:
Okay, so what we're kind of describing here is like a decentralized sustainability team. So you've got your sustainability champions in every team by way of, I don't know, upskilling that you've, or, I don't know, some sort of lever that you've pulled that makes them kind of committed to the sustainability agenda. What are those levers? And how do you actually go about finding your sustainability champions? Or do they find you?
Saif Hameed [00:18:17]:
In some cases, they do find you. I think there's a lot of sustainability inbound within business from other teams into the sustainability team offering to help and asking how they can help. That said, I think the best way to do this is to think of sustainability as a company wide transition, very much like a digital transition or an AI transition or advanced analytics transition, which is like a full contact sport for the whole business. The whole business needs to make this shift. And so let me maybe just describe how this would work for a digital transition, which many large companies have been through, and just draw the parallel in a digital transition. The way that you'd approach this is you'd say, look top down. There's a big pie of opportunity for the business. If we make this transition, however you measure, quantify that.
Saif Hameed [00:19:02]:
There is a big pie, you then say, okay, great. What we need is we need every part of the business, every team, every function, every business unit, however you classify by it, to start thinking about what digital means in their part of the business. What are the digital use cases? Where do they move the needle? What does that slice of the pie that they're responsible for look like in terms of size? And then that function or that business unit starts thinking about how they can enable this within their teams and how they start putting names against each use case. It is very similar for sustainability. And so within sustainability, you need to start looking at individual activities and say, well, what are the levers that I'm putting against each activity to drive change? There are logistics levers. There are levers coming from redesigning the product. There are levers coming from maybe pricing the product differently to accurately capture value from sustainability. There's going to be a broad range of levers which can be assigned based on business unit and team.
Saif Hameed [00:19:59]:
And I think that should then filter down or cascade into competencies or these miners. If sustainability is a lever for marketing, for example, to position a new product line, what does that mean exactly? Is there a training that's required? Is there a capability that's required? Are there new KPI's that are required? Like defining the nature of that miner still becomes important.
Isobel Wild [00:20:21]:
Okay, so we've looked at sourcing competencies and internal resourcing to complete sustainability. Sustainability agenda. What about externally? When should you, and actually, this comes back to this whole ruthless prioritization. When should you look to externalize some of the jobs through or expertise through consultants or software? And when should you actually make sure that you internalize them? Because it's a key skill or key expertise to maintain for internal means.
Saif Hameed [00:20:55]:
I think that there are sort of two principles that are quite well understood by business. And I think those principles are you want to try and avoid fixed cost as much as possible, and you also want to try and optimize for efficiency as much as possible. And so with those principles in mind, I would first think about, is this something that actually needs to be done? A lot of interventions that are being contemplated maybe actually don't need to be done. They don't add value, they're not necessary. And so the first filter is always that. I think the second is, if this needs to be done, does this have to be done by someone internally? Is this best fit for someone internally to do? Is there expertise that is required? Which internal resources wouldn't have? That's like, do I need to look outside my existing frame of reference, my existing team? I think that in many cases, companies might default to thinking, let me have someone do this, and they're going to upscale, but it's going to be fine. That can be a false economy, but let's say that companies then move on to the next stage and say, okay, fine, I've identified this as a need, and I need to either bring in a new resource to my business, or a consultancy or a software provider or similar. I think that with a person coming in, you have a lot more responsibility that comes with that individual that you're hiring.
Saif Hameed [00:22:11]:
You need to think about progression, growth, opportunity, excitement. That person comes with more than just a cost. Theres a responsibility associated with that that is a very real one, both qualitatively in terms of just people and quantitatively in terms of cost. And so I would always see that as a last resort because it is much harder to make that flexible in the tech space. You now have talk about potentially having a unicorn that could be a single person business, like one person generating enough value through AI and software and tooling to create a billion dollars of value. And I think that that principle is interesting in business today, which is can you actually deliver a lot of value without taking on a lot of fixed cost? Can you deliver a lot of value through the use of search capacity externally when you need it, through the use of software, through the use of automation, such that a small team can be much more lean, much more nimble, much more effective without having long term liabilities that are harder to manage.
Isobel Wild [00:23:14]:
It's funny you say unicorn, Saif, because I was literally just jotting down a note of who is our sustainability unicorn? And what are those skills? What are the skills that make a sustainability unicorn, especially in smaller businesses who are a one man band, who perhaps all the budget that they have is just through internal resourcing of themselves. So it's their time. What is that person? What do they look like?
Saif Hameed [00:23:39]:
Let's first, define, Izzy, what we mean by sustainability unicorn. So when I think of this person, and I think of a few individuals, particularly, I think about someone who is able to cover multiple bases at once and therefore deliver in some ways economies of scale just within themselves. They can play the whole sport, basically. And so I think that that person has a combination of quantitative and qualitative skills. Quantitatively, they are able to work with data, run their own analysis, and be proficient, whether that's at the level of, you know, something like Excel or something more advanced, like alteryx or tableau, let's say. Right, it doesn't matter. But they are quantitatively inclined and able to work effectively and smoothly with data to generate insights as a result of their analysis. That's the quantitative side.
Saif Hameed [00:24:28]:
On the qualitative side, they are able to communicate effectively, prioritize effectively, and manage projects to implementation effectively. And I think the combination of these two sets of skills, this sort of quantitative and qualitative, to me, makes a sustainability unicorn. And I've seen multiple of them in different businesses at different levels of seniority. And you will usually find this individual running multiple projects internally of multiple types, often as a one person band. And they might have come out of the, let's say, the R and D heavy side where they're an environmental scientist or an LCA expert. And they've also built the muscle to communicate effectively and to run projects effectively, etcetera. And they're now kind of leaning out from there, or they've come at it maybe more from the qualitative side. They've been a storyteller, a narrator, a communicator, and they've learned the analytics and data side because they've had to, you can see all shapes and sizes there.
Isobel Wild [00:25:28]:
I think also an interesting distinction is when you're hiring, if you're looking for this person or this unicorn internally. So from other departments and functions or externally from, I don't know, other leading sustainability teams that you've been spying on and you like, would you be able to just outline the pros and cons to each? Because I know we've spoken about it a lot behind the podcast wall.
Saif Hameed [00:25:54]:
So I am actually, I'm always averse to expecting that I have hired a unicorn. I sort of speak personally. I think when you're recruiting someone, you should recruit someone for a role and not necessarily assume that this person is going to be a super flexible, super capable individual that can cover multiple bases. You may find that this individual really just nails it in the first three, four months and is rapidly able to take on other responsibilities, and that's a great win. And I think with every hire that you make, one should have a view on what could this person be doing in the future state or what could this person grow into. But I would never assume that that's going to be the case upfront. I think that within the sustainability space, I'm seeing a wide range of, let's say, talent qualities. And this is also, frankly, true at multiple levels of seniority.
Saif Hameed [00:26:49]:
I am seeing junior talent that is clearly high performing, high caliber talent that could have succeeded in any other role type, that they would have wished and chose this role for mission reasons and can run as far as this road will take them. And I think those are the people most likely to be sort of unicorn talent. And I see also people who are early in their career and attracted to the space because it seems fun and kind of interesting and exciting, and there's a massive dearth of talent in this space. And so they've gotten a role, but they wouldn't necessarily have excelled or succeeded, frankly, in other roles in high powered organizations. And I actually see exactly the same thing at every level of seniority. I see chief sustainability officers or equivalent that are also effectively lucky in that they have a C suite or C suite minus one sort of role by virtue of the space being important and having momentum and having been in the right place at the right time, but not necessarily bringing in the right talents and capabilities. And I see people who have moved in laterally into that space from other high powered roles, and they're moving there because they see opportunity to have an impact and to excel and to build a career. And so you kind of see the mix, actually, very interestingly enough, at all levels.
Isobel Wild [00:28:09]:
Saif, we spoke about previously fixed costs and more flexible costs. I'd love to just get into what a headcount budget looks like, how you unlock that budget, but then also how you should scope out that budget.
Saif Hameed [00:28:24]:
It's a hard one to give a precise answer to, Izzy. And I think when I kind of roughly looked at this across companies that I knew around a year ago, I think what I found was somewhere around, I think it was like one and a half FTE per billion dollars of revenue. I was noticing, as a rough rule of thumb across many companies. And in some cases, I think it was significantly higher as an outlier and in some cases significantly lower. But I think that that's evolved a fair bit over the last year. And I think that the most effective teams are now thinking about sizing this based on aspiration. So are they seeing sustainability as a cost center? And basically, there's regulatory requirements, there's reporting requirements, there's stuff that needs to get done, and you want to do this as efficiently as possible with as little cost as possible? Or is sustainability actually underpinning a big part of your strategy? And there's a value capture and a value gain there. And I think that you want to sort of start thinking about resourcing accordingly.
Saif Hameed [00:29:29]:
And so if you think about, let's say, let's take the example of a packaging company, let's say it's a B2B packaging company, let's say doing somewhere between five and $15 billion of revenue. I would say for such a business as that, you actually have a massive upside opportunity. And that upside opportunity in terms of how you resource it should dwarf the cost center opportunity or cost center requirement. What I mean by that is the reporting and regulatory stuff that you have to do does not necessarily scale like it is what it is. Maybe it's a few people in the team managing that, and arguably, let's say two, three people should be able to manage that compliance aspect sufficiently well if you just isolated to that. However, there is a massive upside here in terms of your ability to build strategic relationships with your customers. Long term relationships get more volume. I was just on a call earlier today with a big beverage company, and this company spends over $10 billion a year of spend with its suppliers.
Saif Hameed [00:30:35]:
And they're now looking to craft a program where they can channel more volume towards suppliers that are more sustainable and demonstrating sustainability. That's a massive pie to grab. And so if I was a packaging company, and there will be many packaging companies in the supply chain for this business and many others like it, I would see that as huge opportunity and resource accordingly and think, okay, great, what do I need in terms of data that I'm sharing with my customers? What do I need in terms of R and D to pitch new solutions to customers? What do I need in terms of maybe specialized sales capacity, salespeople with a minor in sustainability that can go and pitch the new solution to the customer as well. Am I spending more on events and communication and marketing collateral? There's a whole suite of things you could be doing to capture that value. And so I think it really depends on your aspiration.
Isobel Wild [00:31:24]:
So essentially, when you're making that business case for the headcount budget, you want to reference the suite of things that you've considered and you've actually determined that, no, I need headcount to deliver on this. Yeah.
Saif Hameed [00:31:37]:
So if I was the, let's say, the leader of the sustainability team, I would say, what are we going after as a function or a capability? We are going after compliance, and that is a no upside game, right. We are compliant or we're not compliant, basically. And we measure that by minimizing fines, minimizing brand risk, minimizing workload. There's a bunch of ways that we can quantify what that is worth to us, and we say that's worth x. And in most cases, if you quantify that appropriately, it will more than justify the headcount that you need to do that well, even though that headcount is likely additional to business as usual historically. So it's a new requirement, it is a new spend, it is a new budget that's needed. But the downside of doing that badly, if you just think of brand risk and fines and the like, is easily big enough to justify whatever resource you're likely to throw at, it obviously still do that efficiently. There's another piece, which is if we do this really well and we lean into the commercial opportunities at play here, we lean into the procurement opportunities at play here, what does that pie or value pool look like and what would we need to do to do it well? Are there five or six interventions that we need or initiatives that we need? Are there capabilities that we require to do that well and what does that cost? And that gives me my full suite of budget for sustainability.
Isobel Wild [00:33:01]:
Weve spoken about how to discern what good talent looks like. Weve spoken about our sustainability unicorn. What about attracting the right talent? So how do you make sure you, as a sustainability team, are encouraging the right people to join you?
Saif Hameed [00:33:16]:
Ooh, good question. Now, let's orient, actually, around the unicorn talent, because even though I think no business should assume they've hired a unicorn and the default should be to see the proof in your business, I think that creating a talent strategy that can attract that sort of talent is a good thing to do. And so if you go back to what we said that talent has, that talent can handle both the quantitative side and the qualitative side, that talent would succeed in a wide range of other roles. As you're competing not necessarily just with other sustainability teams and other businesses. You're competing with other teams in your own business and other teams in other businesses. You're competing with the whole world. And so the reason that that talent is going to come to you is likely because of the mission focus. And the mission is what tips the scale for them.
Saif Hameed [00:34:02]:
The mission and let's say the challenge at stake and those two things are going to be what tips the scale for them and makes them say, okay, I'm going to go and join this instead of joining something cool in the AI space or something cool in the digital space. And I think that what you want there is, you want to make it clear that your business is tackling sustainability in a way that is sincere and meaningful or impactful. And what I mean by that is sincerity is simple. This is not window dressing. This is not greenwashing. This matters to the business. And meaningful means that we are going to do things that are challenging and exciting and change the playing field for our business, potentially for the world, but certainly for our business. And that way you attract people who are both mission driven and looking for an intellectual challenge because you play to both of those parts of the brain.
Isobel Wild [00:34:54]:
Saif, do you have any favorite sustainability teams?
Saif Hameed [00:34:58]:
I have a lot of favorite sustainability teams. I think there are too many to mention, frankly. I mean, the teams that I reference the most are teams like Mars, for example, where a sustainability team has really been a trailblazer in how they set up. And I think a good sign of that is that the momentum and progress on their plan is significant. But also they've started exporting talent to many other sustainability teams, and I think that's a great sign. Another company that I see doing that well is Diageo. Where I see that sort of export or proliferation of talent, I see as a great, almost like a lagging indicator where if the company has a reputation and space for delivering sustainability well and efficiently with good talent, that talent will get poached. And so if you're seeing that talent now turning up frequently in other businesses, as I am seeing from Diageo and from Mars, you kind of infer that actually over the last four or five years, that company built a brand around what they're doing in sustainability such that their peers looked at them and said, hey, I want to acquire that talent that was incubated there.
Saif Hameed [00:36:05]:
So these are two companies where I'm seeing that happen more than average or more than is normal.
Isobel Wild [00:36:11]:
In our second part series of this podcast, we're going to talk about how to retain that talent, because I think the observation we've both had is that there's quite a lot of churn in the sustainability professionals. So we'll be talking about skill development, upskilling, talent retention, all of that. But I think the last place that I would like to just get your eyes and brains on, Saif, is actually where to look for this talent? Where are you supposed to look for sustainability professionals? Is it LinkedIn? Is it via recruiters? Is it stalking other sustainability teams? Where are the honey pots that they're all sticking to?
Saif Hameed [00:36:45]:
It's the same thing said a different way. Like, I would look to my community, people I know, peers, and I would look to companies that are delivering this well, and I would look for alumni of those teams because sustainability is a new space. There's a lot of subjectivity. Most companies do this differently or approach this topic differently. And so if you want best practice, you're going to either have to acquire it through talent acquisition or through consultancies and otherwise. And so I think a good way to get best practice is to bring in people who've done that before, seen it done in a way that you respect and admire.
Isobel Wild [00:37:20]:
Yeah. And have dealt with similar change transformations before. Is there any last piece of advice that you'd like to give to anybody who's looking to set up a team?
Saif Hameed [00:37:30]:
Give yourself a lot of room for iteration. I would say start small, scale up, gradually identify concrete work streams that need to be done, create distinct ownership over those work streams in people, and then kind of go from there.
Isobel Wild [00:37:46]:
Yeah, I like that. And to reference Fran again, she was talking about accountability and how do you make sure people feel accountable and through different mechanisms, whether they're in your team or out of their team, that is the key unlock to making sure your sustainability agenda progresses at the rate you want it to. Saif, thank you so much. And I'm looking forward to the next second part series of this forecast.
Saif Hameed [00:38:12]:
Likewise, Izzy, thanks.