Saif Hameed [00:00:07]:<br>Forget state of the art technology. Forget lofty goals for a second. The real sustainability grind lies in aligning and engaging stakeholders behind sustainability. We're going to discuss how to turn your colleagues from bystanders to sustainability superstars without breaking the bank or your sanity. This is the state of sustainability brought to you by altruistic. But before I get into it, I just want to say a word to longtime listeners and especially those based in the UK, we have our upcoming women's mixer evening on the 22 August. I'm not invited, but for those who can make it, we'd love to have you. It's going to focus on managing and maximizing a sustainability budget.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:00:49]:<br>We'll put the registration link in the show notes and our team would love to see you there. However, to get back into it now for today's podcast, we're tackling this mammoth challenge and I know that every one of our listeners can relate to it. Internal sustainability alignment we all know how crucial it is to get everyone on board, but let's be honest, it can be a time consuming and a frustrating process. So fear not. Today we'll be dissecting the good, the bad and the downright ugly of driving internal engagement. We're going to explore strategies, tips and tricks. We're going to learn from real world examples. No pressure to our guest and we're going to discover how to turn hearts, heads and minds within the organization.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:01:31]:<br>Our guest is from Arla, the dairy giant behind iconic brands like Lerpac and Cravendale, and it's a global powerhouse. Today I'm thrilled to be joined by Camilla Riddiford and I hope I got that right in my best Kiwi accent. Head of sustainability at the UK for Arla, she's going to be sharing her insights on navigating the unique hurdles of uniting such a diverse and sprawling organization around ambitious sustainability goals. Camilla, welcome.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:02:01]:<br>Hi. It's great to be here and you did well with pronouncing my last name. I'm really looking forward to this discussion. I think it's also the the job beneath the job for every sustainability professional as well. And I think it's something that's so important that we get right because it just makes all of the day to day jobs so much easier when you've got stakeholders really understand and align to what you're doing and also willing to champion it and support it off their own bout as well.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:02:29]:<br>I couldn't agree more, Camilla. And before we dive into that, for those of our listeners that are new to Arla, I mentioned a few of the brands, but actually, Arla does so much more. And I know you have so many different divisions of the business as well. Could you maybe take us inside Arla a little and just tell us a bit more about the unique shape of the organization in terms of kind of what it does, what it stands for, how it feels on the inside?<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:02:55]:<br>Yeah. I think the key thing to know about Arla is we're a farmer cooperative. So what that means is that we are owned by the farmers. So we're owned by farmers across the UK, across Sweden, Denmark and some of the other european markets as well. And that really penetrates through everything that we do within Arla. The job that we do is to serve farmers, and the job that we do is to put them in the best possible position for the future. So clearly, that means we have to pay our farmers a good milk price, but that also means that we have to be conscious of setting our farmers up for the future with respect to things like sustainability and make sure that we're acting in a way that serves them. But also what I'm seeing more and more is the need for us to be advocates for farmers as well in this space, to make sure that we have a farmer first approach to the transition, and they can really be truly empowered on this journey as well.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:03:50]:<br>What I'm hearing from you is undertones of very different stakeholder groups as well, because you have these farmers that play a uniquely important role for Arla. They're not just suppliers. They effectively own the business, as in it is their business as well. And at the same time, you have everyone who's working for the business and the customers of the business and everyone else. Do you find that this creates a requirement for tailored communications? And I've heard you describe Arla as a big beast with a big beat and a big impact. And I'd love to just hear how you navigate this beast in the right direction using communications to these different stakeholders.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:04:29]:<br>I think the key thing for us, if we look across those stakeholder groups and what Arla's real superpower is, is really close relationships. So our agriculture team is constantly on the phone with farmers, our commercial team is constantly on the phone with customers, and it's those really strong relationships that are so critical for us. But the second piece as well, in terms of being a big company with a big impact, is we have to make sure that we're really crisp on our communication, our narrative, and we're really well aligned across the cooperative, so we can give really good clarity as well. To all of those external stakeholders as well as our colleagues. So I think a really great example of this is we've recently launched the Farmer Head program. Farmer Head is a new sustainability program that we've launched and underneath it includes Farmer head check, which is our on farm carbon footprinting tool that we use with all of our farmers. It includes farmerhead incentive model, which is all about incentivizing farmers to take more action on sustainability. And then finally farmer head customer partnerships.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:05:32]:<br>So this is all about us working in collaboration with our customers to drive more action on sustainability. And so the rollout of this has really been a great example of how we work across those different stakeholder groups. So we've had a really clear narrative come through from our group function and also very clear engagement across all of those different groups. So they're aware of the program, they're aware of how it works and its intent. But we're also in constant conversation as well throughout that rollout with all of those different stakeholders as well. So we can make sure that we take the best approach. We can make sure that they're also on the journey with the change and the work that we're doing as well. So I think the big lesson here is just strong relationships and constant communication with those stakeholder groups as well.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:06:17]:<br>Thanks, Camilla. What I really like about what you're sharing is how the alignment starts at the very early stage of the journey and you need to get the most important constituents bought in early on and then take them with you because you're also going to require them to do stuff. And having heard a fair bit about the on farm tools that you use, I imagine it's also, it can be onerous for the farmer to kind of go through and complete all these questions and provide all this data and they have to be bought in on the mission and the vision and where you're heading with this. I often find that sustainability teams sit alongside marketing teams and let's say internal or external comms teams, and that there is a fairly fluid interaction between sustainability and those sorts of teams. Could you tell us a bit more about just how that works for you? Do you have a cohort within a marketing function that you engage closely with? How is the setup or just how are the interfaces between you and the more natural communicators within the business?<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:07:19]:<br>I work very, very closely across our marketing and communications team. So within my team in the UK, we've got a marketing sustainability manager. So her role is really to business partner the marketing side of the business to support them with communication about sustainability, things like packaging, food waste and more. So that's that really strong connection in terms of the communications team, it's hand in glove. We're constantly in dialogue with them, constantly collaborating with them, and from a local market perspective, we constantly work together on this as well. From a global Arla perspective, we also have what we call the ASC function. So that's where our chief sustainability officer, she has the agriculture, sustainability and communications part of the organization, sit under her structure as well to really enable that collaboration and then in market. My reporting line is up to the managing director of the UK, but again, we see that really tight connection across agriculture, sustainability, comms and marketing.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:08:24]:<br>So I think that the trick to it is to really focus on building those relationships and that alignment, but then also to make sure that you're playing to each other's strengths. So we've got these excellent communicators in the UK business, and my role is to give that sustainability lens and that market insight to them, to really give them the knowledge they need to do what they do best, which is connecting with those different audiences. So I think that's the other lesson that I've learned in this space as well, is how do you amplify the strengths of all of the wonderful folks who are within your business and make sure that you play to your strengths as you collaborate together as well?<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:08:59]:<br>I think, Camilla, one of the things that I would imagine helps is that your line is directly into the MDD is well for the UK. And I think that that setup where sustainability reports directly into the C suite, effectively, it gives you a certain seat at the table that you wouldn't have if you were tucked away somewhere inside a sub function.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:09:19]:<br>I think that's also a bit of the journey that Arlo's been on in the UK. So we started out with viral reporting into the marketing function, and then it was highlighted that because of the strategic importance of this, it needs to have that MD connection and the UK, and also that's echoed across our other markets as well. And what we've seen through that is just a massive step up in terms of engagement, in terms of action, and really that ability to drive the agenda forward. So I completely agree. You need to have that executive support, you need to have the right reporting line in place to give the sustainability function. Ultimately, what it needs to drive this forward.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:09:55]:<br>Camilla, I've had a conversation with one of your counterparts in an apparel business. And what they have sometimes complained about is they say marketing is always hungry, they always want something new they want something new to talk about. And in sustainability, it's usually slow moving. Things actually, like the numbers haven't changed much since three weeks ago. The initiative you're underway with hasn't really evolved much since two months ago. Do you feel like there is that element of feeding marketing stuff that keeps things exciting and moving while also managing expectations that actually, in the world of sustainability, it might take years and decades for very substantial progress?<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:10:36]:<br>I think a really nice example of this is actually the approach we take in marketing. And so what we talk about is we talk about what are your shields you need to have in place. So what are those kind of minimum ticket to the game sorts of activities versus what are your swords? So what are the things you're going to be known for to really excel? And what we've observed is, with the greenwash legislation coming through, this is even more critical. And so I think some teams, they often want the big, new shiny thing where actually there's a lot of work to be done and a lot of value to be created by just getting those shields in place. And that's where one of the women in my team, Helen, has done an amazing job with the marketing team in terms of focusing on how do we make sure that we're communicating our recyclable packaging credentials on PAC, how do we make sure that we've got the right storage guidelines for all of our products to reduce food waste. So it's those little things that actually do have a big impact later on. But it's about thinking about it in those two different buckets around, what are the actions that you need to take to have the right to play in that sword space as well. So that would be my key reflection on it, is think about both the swords and the shields.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:11:51]:<br>Yeah, I think, Camilla, we're thinking very much alike. One of the phrases that I've often used on this podcast is where do you want to win the game versus play the game? And I think it's a very similar logic. There are certain things you just need to be above board on. And I think that, frankly, in the sustainability space, there could be 200 metrics you're solving for, and it may well be that, actually 180 of them. You just need to play the game and make sure you're good enough, whereas on a few key battlegrounds, you need to win the game. And I would imagine those are the swords in your metaphor, where these are the things you're actually going out and standing for.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:12:26]:<br>A really nice metaphor that we also shared. So Helen shared this week at our brand planning day was the metaphor of a marathon. So it's about treating those little ticket to the game activities as little wins, little steps on in the marathon, and then celebrating each of those wins as we move along on this journey as well. Because I think everyone wants the big shiny thing, but the reality is, the way we get there is by those little tiny actions, step by step. So it is a marathon, but we just need to make sure that we're running the mile that we're in and really celebrating those little pieces of progress along the way.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:13:00]:<br>I really like that. And Camilla, just building on, I guess, messaging and celebration as well. What types of content have you found resonates the most with people within Arla? As in, if you're trying to build and maintain excitement, are there specific types of messages, are there specific formats, like ways in which you communicate it visually or in a narrative way? Other storytelling approaches what works to consistently drive engagement internally.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:13:29]:<br>So there's really two different formats that I found resonate really effectively. So the first format is more for smaller groups, and that's about showing don't tell. So an excellent example of this is I ran an upskilling session with our UK leadership team on food insecurity, and I could have peppered them with facts and figures and all the rest of it, but what I instead had them do is I had them guess the average height of a five year old in the UK, Germany and France. And so it was quite fun, it was engaging. They were all talking about how tall their children were, but what came out of it was actually, UK five year olds are 4 cm shorter than their german peers. And the reason for that is, is because our young people aren't getting the nutrition they need. So we're seeing an increased rate of stunting. And that exercise I did, it triggered an entire conversation and so much motivation and so much passion around the topic.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:14:25]:<br>So that's really the first thing, is for those small groups, find a way to show them, don't tell them. And then for the bigger groups, what I found really effective is storytelling. So if you tell a story, it's 22 times more memorable than a fact or a figure. A really nice example of this was I shared the story of where I come from with our sales team. So essentially, I come from a farm in New Zealand. It's been in my family for seven generations. And the way that we farm, we always talk about not just the last hundred years, but also the next hundred years. So how can we make sure that we farm in a way that's really thinking about the future.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:15:05]:<br>And in New Zealand, there's this term called Kaitiakitanga. And what that is is that's what this is about. And that's a term from the Mori people. So it's an indigenous group in New Zealand. And it's about not just thinking about your own benefit, but also thinking about how you leave the land in a better place. And so I shared this story with our sales team, and what I saw is that they finally got it, because ultimately, their job is to make sure that our farmers have the funding that they need to take action on sustainability. When I shared that story of where I came from, why it's so important to me, why it's so important to my family, they could hook onto it. What was really cool was when I then did a Slido, and I said to them, what does sustainability mean to you? And I saw Kaitiakitanga come up, and it's a very complicated word.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:15:54]:<br>Most of them haven't heard it before, but it stuck. And I think that's what really gave me tingles. You saw kaisi Akitanga legacy leaving things in a better place, and that's what sustainability is about. And it was because I was vulnerable. I shared that story from my past and why sustainability is so important to me. And then I saw it resonate through the sales team, which was just magic. And I think the real lesson there is to lean into that vulnerability, to share your passion. And when you share that passion and that story, then other people get it.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:16:26]:<br>The real asset that we have in Arla is the fact we are a farming cooperative. We work for the farmers. And so we need to make sure that we keep on bringing that to the fore. But I'm sure others on this podcast have other senses of purpose or other stories in terms of the work that their business does. And so it's about really distilling that for your audience and telling them the story to really bring it to life for them as well. So those would be my two key examples. But I think less is more in this space, and it's about. About taking people on that journey as well.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:16:55]:<br>I love that. Camilla. I wish I could pronounce this right on the first go, but. Katiatitanga.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:17:02]:<br>Kai tiakitanga. Kai kai tiakitanga.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:17:06]:<br>Tiakitanga. I am so not gonna get this right after even a few more attempts, but I'm noting it down, and I'm gonna practice it because I would love to repeat this story.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:17:19]:<br>We had to get the sales team to say it about three times, and then I think they got it in the end. But it's definitely a tricky one as well.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:17:26]:<br>And. Sorry, what language is that, Camilla?<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:17:28]:<br>Yeah, so this is a bit of where I come from. So in New Zealand, there's the indigenous people who are called the Mori people.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:17:35]:<br>Yes.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:17:36]:<br>And so they're best known internationally for. Have you heard of the All Blacks?<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:17:40]:<br>No, actually.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:17:41]:<br>So the All Blacks are the New Zealand rugby team, and they do this war dance at the start of all of their rugby games called the haka. And that's how most people know Mori culture. But the thing that's so powerful about Mori culture is they've been doing sustainability for generations. So there's so much to learn from those indigenous people as well, in terms of how they think about the land and care for the land. And that's what Kaitiakatang is all about, is it's about care for the land for future generations as well. So it was just magic being able to share that story of where I come from, my New Zealand identity, but then also sharing it with my colleagues at Arla as well.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:18:20]:<br>And thank you for sharing it with us also, Camilla. It's such a beautiful story. I couldn't agree with you more that I think that telling a story that's personal and also kind of reinforcing it with something that's relatable is the best way to communicate these sorts of messages. One of the things that came to my mind as you were speaking was, I remember a conversation with Emma Keller at Nestle, whom you might have also met. She was telling us about how one of the best ways for her to explain regenerative agriculture was to kind of bury items of clothing, I think, under the soil. And then you sort of see different types of soil degrading it at different paces. I don't know if she's shared that one with you, but it came to my mind as a really nice way to just visually demonstrate what biodiversity, for example, means completely.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:19:08]:<br>And my parents have done the same thing on their farm, so they've shared a few pictures of the underwear. And I think it's such a nice, relatable, fun example. And it's also about, how do you make this fun and engaging for leaders? Because they're dealing with decks and decks of PowerPoints. So it's nice to offer them some relief through the day of doing something fun and engaging and different to also get their buy in.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:19:33]:<br>And, Camilla, one of the things that we've been reflecting on recently is how different forms of upskilling and education are helpful for different groups of stakeholders in the business. And so I tend to think, for example, that if you're trying to bring a large group of people on board, then maybe something like an off site or a quarterly or a half yearly touchpoint to kind of just like share stories, recalibrate is a good way to do it. If it's the management team or a board, maybe you want actually like a half day boot camp that they all experience together. What works well for you when it comes to maybe slightly more formalized ways of embedding information, are there any trainings that you're thinking about internally or any kind of programs externally, even that you kind of sponsor team members into?<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:20:23]:<br>So I think there's probably a few different elements here. So the first thing is absolutely focus on the UK leadership team. We're in the middle of planning a boot camp, so to speak, with the UK leadership team at the end of the year. We'll have a bit of fun with that as well. I think the second piece is for our sales and marketing function. Every year we do a sales and marketing day where we engage them as well in the content and everything that's going on. We have a session actually next Friday with our sales function, where we're getting them out on farm to also really embed the learning. And then I think the final piece of the puzzle, which is often a piece that's left out, is the upskilling for my team as well.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:21:07]:<br>And the thing that we always talk about as a team is how do we supercharge our superpowers? Because ultimately we're the ones who have to implement this whole change across the business. And I think also the type of people in sustainability is you often give so much to others without recognizing you need to put your oxygen mask on first in this space. And so we have a really relentless focus on personal development in my team in terms of what's everyone's personal development plans. We've taken that and created a team development plan. We then organize sessions for people within the team to train each other. And also we have used people from outside the team to come in and train us. And then the third thing we've also done is every quarter we look back and we share a lesson that we've learned. So there's that growth mindset also really fixated in that engagement side of things, too.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:21:59]:<br>So I think it's important to make sure you've got those touch points at different parts of the business, but also on internal engagement, you need to make sure that you're investing in the capability of your sustainability team to make sure they've got the right skills to drive this. Because if there's one thing I've learned from sustainability is it's constantly changing, constantly growing. And so it's so critical to have that continuous focus on personal growth and development.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:22:24]:<br>I hear you, Camilla. And I think that that example of sort of first look after yourself and then help others, I think is definitely if you think about sustainability as a marathon, we're going to be in this slog for years to come. And actually what's important is that the sustainability team has the resilience to not just get through the exciting times of like 20 19, 20, 20, 20 21 where everyone is talking about sustainability. It's the thing to do, but also going into the potential turbulence of new governments and elections around the world over the next twelve months and you kind of don't know which way the wind will start blowing. I think it's important for sustainability teams to have resilience to sort of power through all the uncertainty in many ways of the years to come completely.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:23:08]:<br>And I think that now we're in a position where folks have set targets and they're actually starting to realize how much is required to achieve those targets. So this is where it gets tough, where it gets tricky, but it's absolutely where we have to keep on driving forward as well.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:23:23]:<br>Camilla, I realize we're overdue for a short break, so I'm going to give our listeners and us a bit of a breather and we'll be back right after to talk through the fun stuff of business cases and budgets. And so stay tuned for anyone listening in. And we're back. We're back from the break. Thank you, everyone, for staying with us. Camilla, we've talked about, I think, a lot of the important but slightly softer maybe ends of the sustainability space in terms of communication and narrative and storytelling. We're now going to come to the slightly more brass tacks, end of the spectrum with business cases and budgets and alignment. And I'd love to get your sense check on when you're building business cases for interventions, how do you strike the balance between telling the story, building the vision, getting the narrative aligned, and also, let's say, just having the model ready, having all the numbers checked out? Well, what is the balance that you play? And even if you could talk us through just the mechanics of that process and how it works, when you have a new idea and you want to get it across the line and get it funded, the more granularity and detail, you really have a fantastic way of bringing things to life.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:24:46]:<br>And so if you could just take us into the weeds of that process for our listeners, that would be fantastic.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:24:51]:<br>Yeah, definitely. I think business cases are definitely the bread and butter in terms of how do we continue to show the value that sustainability creates and continue to communicate that to stakeholders as well. So I think a really nice example of this is actually when we launched our sustainability incentive model. And at Arla, we definitely strike both the narrative and also the data led approach. And the reason for having that data and science led approach is for us, because ultimately we are owned by the farmers. So we have to be so conscious of how we spend every dollar, every cent. We have to make sure it really stacks up for them financially. And so the journey that we went on with launching the incentive model was, firstly, we completed on farm carbon footprints through farmer head check.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:25:43]:<br>So all of the farmers had submitted their data and information, so we had really good insight into where all of the emissions were coming from with respect to our farmers. What we then did is we took all of that data to then identify the most cost effective way to reach our 2030 30% reduction target. And then those actions became the levers within our sustainability incentive model. So we turned those levers into points, and then our farmers now will earn more money on their milk check for every point that they earn. And so I think that's a really nice example of, yes, there was the narrative to begin with, but then we backed that up with the data and the facts and the rigor as well, because for us as well, when we share this with our farmers, it's so critical that we share with them the data and the science and the information to give them absolute clarity and confidence in our approach as well. So I think that's the key lesson from our side of things, is you absolutely need the science and the data, but then you also need to make sure you've got the narrative in your toolkit at the same time.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:26:46]:<br>And Camilla, I feel like there's an implicit carbon price in the structure that you've set up as well, because you're actually paying out the farmers based on quantifiable progress. Is that the way that you think about it, where you're saying, well, actually, all these initiatives are going to cost us XDev, and if we pay the farmer to go and do it and give them the money, they can go and implement this stuff and make a bit of a margin, maybe on top, like, is that how you're approaching it, where there's a number somewhere within the bowels of the Arla finance system that kind of drives the mechanics here.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:27:18]:<br>I think the thing for us is we're always conscious that farmers tend to be price takers, and so we need to make sure that we give farmers a good price. And what's also very clear is that the cost of transition isn't free. I've heard of various narratives that, oh, farmers will save their way there. It's all about efficiency. It's not. And you look at all of the research that's out there, and it's clear that there's significant investment needed in the food and agriculture value chain as well. So that's why we've taken this approach. That's why we're incentivizing farmers.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:27:50]:<br>And I think the thing that's really compelling is the fact we've achieved a 3.6% reduction in the last twelve months since launching the incentive model. So if you want farmers to take action, you absolutely need to make sure that you're incentivizing them. And that's the real lesson from our side of things as well. And that's why, again, we're really strongly involved in the advocacy space, because it's critical that we do consider farmers at the forefront of the transition and make sure that we are supporting farmers through the transition and the actions that we need to take.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:28:20]:<br>Yeah, I couldn't agree more, Camilla. I mean, the way that I think about it is that sustainability is going to cost money. It is an externality for a reason. If it wasn't an external, if it was free, if it was easy, it would not be an externality. And when I kind of just think about structuring this, I can only think of three ways that the money gets paid. One is efficiency, but I think that that is a part of it. That's not the whole of it and probably not a majority of it. The second is margin contraction of some sort through the value chain.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:28:51]:<br>And whether that happens intentionally or inadvertently depends on the value chain and the players. And the third I think about is a price increase to end consumers. I've been challenged on this framework by people who say, well, there's a subsidy element as well, but to be honest, a subsidy has to be paid for by somewhere. And I think of that as a price increase to a consumer because as consumers, we're the paying the taxes that fuel the subsidies. Am I getting this wrong? Are you seeing it the same way where actually there are these three levers to pay the big sustainability bill. At the end of the day, the.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:29:24]:<br>Analogy I keep on thinking of is same as for a tax system. So a tax system that works well is when you evenly pluck a chicken, so you don't want to, because if you pluck it in one area, you're going to really notice it and that's going to distort things. And so I think the key thing here is what is the fair share for farmers? What is the fair share for industry to pay? What is the fair share for government to pay? And also, how do we start considering some of the free riders also in this equation? So the likes of the banks, the likes of insurers, the likes of water companies, potentially. So how do we start really thinking about that whole system approach? Because I think we've got to pull all of the levers, and I also think currently the burden is sitting on farmers, and we need to redistribute that along the value chain and along the broader system as well to make sure we give farmers the support they need in this space.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:30:13]:<br>You really brought a narrative to my framework, Camilla, so thank you for that. If I think about, let's say, maximizing resources available within the organization, and obviously there will be a finite extent to which ArLA and its stakeholders are willing to foot their part of this bill. How do you maximize buy in and budget allocation? Whether it's about sharing resources with other teams or whether it's about aligning the right stakeholders behind your ideas, obviously a bunch of this will sit with the farmers and be paid out in the form of the milk check and kind of the incentive scheme. But I'm sure there's a lot of stuff that is also more core within your domain to sort of think through and help navigate. How do you maximize resources available for the scope of the problem that you have? The more that you can make this kind of practical advice for those in your shoes in other organizations, the better.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:31:07]:<br>Definitely. And I think it's about how do you make sustainability part of the day job, and how do you make it really core to the business. So how do you use sustainability to drive things like EBIT performance, things like cost reductions? How do you make it really weave into those other business objectives? I think that's a critical part of it. So it's not seen as, and then we do sustainability. And I think a really nice example of this is, again, in the marketing space, what we've found is it's about having sustainability complement the main category drivers. So how do you really have a product that tastes good and it's sustainable. So you've got sustainability really tightly woven into that core message that you're communicating with your audience. I think that's a really nice example of this.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:31:57]:<br>But ultimately, in this space, it's about asking for help from other functions. But you have to first make sure it's a core part of people's day job. And people need the clarity of what's expected of them in terms of what good looks like and how they need to contribute to the strategy as well, because then it gives you that license to get their help, get their support, and get their buy in as well. So I think my overall lesson in this space is it's about, about make sustainability a core part of the business, not. And then we do sustainability.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:32:26]:<br>Yeah, I hear you. If you kind of think about, let's say, the evolution of this space and this function, one of the other things that I'd love to get your thoughts on is I sort of see these different models where you have a very centralized sustainability team, which then has to go out and align and make sure everyone else kind of works smoothly with sustainability. And there's increasingly also a distributed sustainability team where you have sustainability professionals embedded within procurement, embedded within operations. I'd love to get your take on how you see that trend evolving and whether you think that that will make sustainability alignment easier or harder going forward.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:33:05]:<br>I think it's about both. So we had more of the decentralized model, so to speak. The first thing I did in my role was we need to come together as one team across sustainability. And that's because, as we've always touched on, already touched on, the needs of sustainability professionals are unique. And also you're facing an incredible change journey. So it's important that you've got that support and that community to be able to support each other through this journey, because it's tough, it's tricky, it's changed. But I think the real strength in my team is also their connections with the business units. So they are absolutely embedded within the business units.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:33:42]:<br>They work incredibly closely with them. I work incredibly closely with them because you don't want to be a team that's theoretical. You want to be a team that's really embedded within the business. And it comes back to just what I've said before as well. It's about making sure that sustainability is part of the core business, but you have to do that in a way where you continue to support those sustainability professionals and make sure that you've got that core drive as well. So it's about doing both. And that's really what I see in this space, is I see the future of a sustainability professional is about knowing how to navigate that Matrix organization and how to make sure that you get the best of both worlds. Because ultimately it's not one versus the other.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:34:23]:<br>It's a unique sort of role type, isn't it? When I've tried to think about a parallel role type in corporate history or recent corporate history, the closest I've gotten to is like digital change teams, for example, or just like teams trying to functions, trying to manage digitization within the business. Because they're also not really owning a p and L. They tend to be kind of trying to interface with everyone else and driving everyone to change. Do you think that my analogy is the right one, or is there another function that you think actually that one is probably a better parallel for a sustainability function?<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:34:58]:<br>I think it's a great analogy. I also kind of in some ways think it's similar to the journey that we've been on in ECOM. Like there's been a massive increase in EcOm online shopping as well. And it's about that journey that you go on where it goes from being a bit of a fringe function to actually being a core value driver and a core part of your business. So I think the digital analogy is a really nice one. I think the other thing about this function as well is you need to have resilient, really resilient teams, a massive growth mindset, and also you're just dealing with so much ambiguity. So even more so than that digital transformation. So I think it is a really unique skillset.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:35:42]:<br>And that's, again, where I see it being so critical to focus on building the capability of those sustainability professionals through this change, because it is very unique, very important and very special as well, the work that sustainability professionals are doing.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:35:55]:<br>Camilla, thank you so much. I'm going to try and summarize some of the amazing insights you've shared with us. I'm probably going to fail to do this conversation justice, but I'm going to try. I kind of counted in my notes around seven interesting takeaways, and I'm going to run through them and then ask you if you think I've missed anything. The first one for me was the importance of really trying to align early when building your narrative and bringing people along with you on the journey from day one, especially the most important stakeholder groups, especially those that you're going to come back to with real work and real demands. It's important to align them early. My second was around the importance of being able to work closely with marketing and aligning marketing, as well as other parts of the business for that matter, in the narrative and the messaging that you're going to be taking out. I then loved the analogy of shields and swords, and I thought it was very similar to the analogy that I often use around winning the game and playing the game, which is there are a bunch of things that you kind of just need to do.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:36:58]:<br>You don't need to be amazing at them, but you need to do them reasonably well. And those are your shields and then the territories that you kind of want to go out and conquer, really. And those are the swords, those are the things where you want to be the best in class and the best in the world at. I then thought that there was a really important point that you made both early on in this episode and just more recently around the resilience and the marathon qualities of the mission in sustainability. And so within the sustainability team, you want to make sure that people are looking after themselves before they help others so that they can manage just the high demands and the rigorous nature of this role for the marathon that it is. I really liked then how we start talking about the importance of showing rather than just telling. We talked about a couple of fun examples to really bring it to life. I think food lends itself well to that because it's such a physical space and has such close associations with nature and the soil and the real world aspects of sustainability.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:37:58]:<br>We moved on then, and we kind of talked about how there's this sort of cost of the transaction and the cost of sustainability, and it's important to be transparent, and I have the right mechanisms also for apportioning that. Then, at a higher level, we said, actually, the analogy you used was plucking a chicken. It's important to do that in a way that's sort of even and fair. Otherwise you're going to have some very visible inequality in how you've done it. And I think that everyone in this sustainability change, whether it's insurance, whether it's government, whether it's mainstream corporate actors, has a different role to play in it. And then we talked a little bit about analogies for this very unique role that sustainability professionals play. And I think we kind of aligned on digitization and e commerce as probably the best analogies, where you sort of start off in somewhat the fringe, which seems a bit maybe of a nuisance to the rest of the organization at times, and a bit of a passion project for someone and then gradually seeps in and then gradually just becomes a mainstream value driver in the business. Camilla, if I've missed any of the points that I should have included in my summary, that's a good summary.<br><br>Camilla Riddiford [00:39:07]:<br>I think you've brought out some great points there. I think the main thing for me is this is another piece to bring through. The main thing for me is just making sure you're celebrating those small wins and also being kind to yourself on the journey as well, because I think we've got so much work to do. But it's about creating that feeling of success and I think that's something I'm really proud to work. That's one of the reasons I'm so proud to work for Arla, because we do recognise those wins. Like we had a win last week and sales directors taking us out for a curry. And so it's about taking that time to actually have those little moments of victory, of win. Because that's what gives you the energy to take on those more and more challenging obstacles that are ahead of us as well.<br><br>Saif Hameed [00:39:51]:<br>I love that. Camilla, thank you so much. Really enjoyed having you with us. Big thank you for making time for this. Thank you also to all our listeners for joining us on this episode. Please check out other episodes for more of the same. Feel free to follow our newsletter as well, where we deep dive into similar topics and more. Camilla, once again, thank you.<br>