Welcome back to the State of Sustainability. I'm your host, Sef Hamid, founder and CEO of Ultruistic. This episode is a food sustainability vibe check. Many of you want to know what's happening in this space outside your business. Which topics are hot, which topics are cold. What's the food sustainability vibe in Europe versus North America? To help us get the juiciest industry insights, I wanted a guest who's right at the center of it all. Someone who speaks with food sustainability leaders every day. So on this episode, I'm excited to have Catherine David with us. Catherine is the CEO of RAP. She's a year into the role, making waves fast, and has one of the traits I admire most: radical candor.
SPEAKER_03Well, Catherine, welcome to the show. I'm super excited to have you with us. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me. It's been a while in the making, so great that we could put it together.
SPEAKER_02I think that you really sit, from my perspective, at the heart of the food sustainability ecosystem, certainly in the UK. And I know that with rap, you're sort of radiating outwards from there as well. And I expect in pockets of North America, Europe, et cetera, the rap sort of brand and reputation has been growing steadily. And so what I'd like to sort of talk through in this episode is how you found rap, how you found the role, what you're seeing, what you're hearing. And I thought just to introduce rap to our listeners, because many of our listeners are based in North America or outside the UK, I thought maybe we could just start with how if you were introducing rap to an American audience, for instance, how would you introduce it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So when I'm out in the States talking to businesses and stakeholders about what rap do, I always start with the fact that we're a circular economy not for profit. We're a British export. So we've been working in the UK for 25 years and have a big track record of working with uh businesses and governments there and in Europe on our key programs. And now we're increasingly in the US with a team and an office based in Washington, DC, looking to grow our impact in that market as well. And one of the things that really distinguishes RAP is that we say we're on the side of the doers. So whilst we like to think about system change and system transformation and we love a blueprint and a roadmap just as much as everybody else, we're very quick at translating this into really practical, outcome-driven programs where we get alongside businesses, sustainability teams, governments, um, circular economy, policy departments, and we design policies, systems, guidance that works and which really changes practices. Um, and particularly in the US right now, we're seeing a real appetite for that kind of practical action, particularly where it can solve for the sort of multidimensional challenges of environmental, social, and commercial outcomes for businesses. And so I'm tending to find that there's a lot of interest in track record of achieving those sorts of things and how that might transfer into the US context.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, just to build on that, Catherine, I think I first came across RAP maybe four years ago in the context of the courthold commitment and packaging in terms of uh commitments and guidelines that companies should adhere to to really get their packaging in shape, uh, no pun intended. And I sort of see rap as having this unique role at the intersection of government and industry and the not-for-profit space as well. And so where I think a lot of the value of rap lies is that you can almost see it as an intermediary between any of these different sets of stakeholders. And that that I think is maybe a bit of colour as a as a solution provider, how I think rap is perceived in the UK. And I think that's a super valuable role. I'd love to dive a little deeper into your own background and your own experience in the role of CEO because you're you're just what, rounding out the first year at rap now? Yeah, that's right. And so I'd love to get a sense of um what you love about the role, what you hate about the role. Like let's make this super personal, right? Like when you when you get up in the morning, what are you excited to do and what are you dreading?
SPEAKER_03Well, maybe, maybe I'll even rewind a little bit further. Um, so I joined RAP. I can date it exactly because my youngest uh child, my daughter Ruby, she turned five at the weekend. So she's five years old. And I did my final interview for my first job at RAP when I was nine months pregnant with her. So 41 weeks pregnant, past my due date, and back in the days of COVID, I was sitting on a Zoom call interview for the director of behavior change and business programs role at RAP. And I remember in that conversation saying to the CEO at the time, Marcus, why I was so excited uh to join RAP, even though I was nine months pregnant. And that was because rap does play that role that you talk about at that intersection of we call it people, partners, and policy. Um, so bringing together partners, whether that's uh solution providers like yourselves, tech innovators, whether it's businesses putting products on the market, whether it's other NGOs, with policymakers, and then with people as citizens, as shoppers, as recyclers, as influencers. And I love the fact we do that system change in a really evidence-driven way and in a highly partnered way, and that we move whole markets. So that's what brought me to RAP from a really happy time at Fair Trade, which is also a super interesting uh impact model in the food system that we could touch on. And then, as you say, last June I was fortunate enough to step up and become RAP's CEO. Uh, to touch on a couple of things I love about it. I mean, I love the opportunity to meet with colleagues like you across the landscape and get to know the wider landscape at that, at that CEO level. It's just a really exciting, dynamic part of the job. The other thing that I sometimes say though is, and I don't know whether this is particularly true as a female leader, but I'd certainly learnt over my career how important it was to not rush to be the person in the room with the strong recommendation, with the right answer. You know, I learnt how to hang back and enable others and make the space and build those peer relationships, which of course is still super important as CEO. I guess the difference as CEO is that ultimately you are the person that everyone is looking to for that final strategic call, having heard all the views. You are the one that gets to make that decision. And I love that. I love that bit of it. Um, it's it's really, really exciting. And then the thing that I find hardest, I guess, is the flip side of that, which is making judgment calls as a CEO also includes deciding what not to do, often in the face of very passionate stakeholders or very passionate colleagues. And honestly, that's really difficult. And it's, I think, particularly difficult right now as I step into my first CEO role in a funding market, which is which is which is tough and which is constrained for a charity, and which is requiring us to really focus in on our core strengths and core capabilities and get get super sharp and focused. So to be the person driving that focus is at times challenging, particularly when you're somebody who loves new ideas, new opportunities, and to encourage that that growth and creativity.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, Catherine, so much of what you're saying resonates with me. Um, I actually remember my first job was with the government of Pakistan, and a lot of the bureaucrats that I worked with had also worked under General Masharraf, who was a military dictator in Pakistan and had complete power. And one of the things that they said was really admirable about him and which they really liked was that he would always start the meeting by wanting to listen to the experts. And so he would always kind of say, I don't know anything about this topic. Can you please teach me or tell me? Or what do you think is the right answer? And then he would sort of hear everyone out, hear all the perspectives, and then form an opinion. And I think that you know, this this ability for as a CEO to sort of try and absorb and ingest is super important. I think one that I've been learning in my role, and which has frankly always been has been a learning journey for me for a while, is I have often been too readily swayed by the most recent and most allowed and most high confidence voice in the room. And it's been a learning for me to say actually, what is my perspective? And how do I sort of test what I'm hearing against my perspective? And actually, where do I change and where do I correct? And where do I just actually maybe hold on to my view? And I I can only imagine that you must see so much of this because actually you're you're convening, right? A lot of the role that you play is convening and bringing people around the table, and everyone is going to have strong views. And actually, in this sort of sustainability and circularity space, the power of narrative, the power of communication gets you quite far. And so you're probably up against many people who are very persuasive and all with conflicting opinions. So it must be a real real challenge at times to navigate ideology, charisma, and stubbornness.
SPEAKER_03I mean, that's such a great observation. Um have you ever done Myers Briggs?
SPEAKER_02I have, yeah. Well what are you?
SPEAKER_03I am E N Wait, wait, let me guess. Okay.
SPEAKER_02I'm actually gonna say I think you're a T.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02And I'm gonna say I think you are a J.
SPEAKER_03Right. So the really interesting one for me is the TF. Okay, because so I am I've done I've done the assessment three times.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I've been F twice, T once. I'm very close to the middle. And when I did the the level two analysis on it, so this is all about how we make decisions, and this is what your your comments made me think about. So I am somebody who thinks that decisions should be made with evidence, analysis, fact, and data. But the way that I actually make decisions is to listen to the kind of key voices, trusted people in my circle, voices from outside, right? So, and this can lead to some conflict in me because I'll be thinking, but I should make the decision with evidence and data, but here are the people, here are what people are saying. And what I've really learned in my leadership journey is to actually embrace this and see this as a real strength. To your point, it's really important to listen, not just to trusted voices, actually, but to check your bias and listen to a range of voices who are giving you different perspectives with different um communication styles, even different levels, like don't let the level of um articulation cloud what somebody is saying. I sometimes play a mental game with myself where I imagine, okay, what if these same words that this person is telling me were coming from that person over there? How would I, how would I hear and absorb that information differently?
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's clever.
SPEAKER_00That's clever.
SPEAKER_03I also particularly um rap is a very science-led organization, a very evidence-led organization. And so I'm very lucky in having colleagues who are very skilled in helping me understand what the data is really saying and also sometimes what analysis is not saying. Because this is, of course, to your point, um, there is no such thing as neutral information, right? Information gets curated and prepared to make a certain argument, either consciously or or or unconsciously. So uh one of the things I love about rap is being surrounded by colleagues whose bias is towards that analytical science-led approach, but who are overlaying that with their judgment and their experience. And then that's the beauty of synthesis in that convened landscape.
SPEAKER_00Yes. We've touched on what you love. What do you hate about the job?
SPEAKER_03Uh well, as I mentioned earlier, I'm the parent of two still quite small children. Um, so I have a recently turned five-year-old and a soon-to-be eight-year-old. And on the one hand, they're super proud of me and the work that I do, although their understanding of it is is at times limited. They say things like, if you earn more money, does that solve climate change? And I'm like, I wish, I wish that were true. Um, but on the other hand, I really notice A, how many evenings I miss uh with them. Um so for example, this evening I'm going to a big food industry dinner, really important for the work, but another another bedtime that I'll miss with them. Uh, but also how easy it is to get distracted and absorbed in your work and not be fully present when you should be doing family time. So I think that's probably the thing I find hardest about the job.
SPEAKER_02I think it's also especially hard in mission-driven jobs, where one of the reasons that you you took the job and clear it from your career, Catherine, is the mission drive and the desire to have an impact and change the world. And when that's a trade-off with changing the world within your own little space and your family and your home, it must be quite challenging.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it it is that is a challenge. I think I'll adjust to it more the more that I do it. And I'm lucky to be supported by my family. Um, but that is definitely, I guess it's a trade-off many parents face. Um, whatever job they're in is this this kind of balance between family life and professional life. I guess at least I know, at least my job feels worthwhile, right? Like the mission or orientation makes that rewarding. I think I'd struggle more maybe if I was in a pure commercial job, for example.
SPEAKER_02You could be a banker. You could be a banker, Kathleen.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I'd be a technical banker, but yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Uh I want to move, Catherine, over to the broader sustainability environment. And I guess get your thoughts on how you find the environment right now. And particularly, are there topics that you think are actually really hot, really moving fast, really getting attention, whereas there are other topics that are maybe stone cold that were hot once. What does it feel like out in the space?
SPEAKER_03Uh resilience. Resilience is the hot topic. There's no doubt about that for me. Uh, whether that is business resilience from a supply chain perspective, business resilience from a risk perspective, or household community resilience when we're talking to governments and other stakeholders, I think that is no doubt the hot topic. That translates into cost of living on the one hand, uh, particularly for governments, but it also translates into efficiency and cost saving uh for businesses uh as well. Uh what's not so hot, I think in the sustainability space, we are well past CSR type initiatives. I think for a combination of reasons, due to kind of a desire to see stronger ROI on sustainability spend, but also for the fear of green greenwashing as well, and the kind of tightening up on green claims in different jurisdictions is driving that. From my perspective, that's no bad thing. I think we have now ample, ample evidence across the different uh threads of sustainability about what works and what doesn't. Honestly, I'm not sure many more pilots are needed. We're we're we should now be in scale plays. So it's no bad thing, but it does make it much harder than ever to secure investment into sustainability projects.
SPEAKER_02And do you think that this is different across the UK versus Europe versus North America? For instance, I know that the cost of living topic is very resonant in the UK right now and is a big focus. I guess I see it in the US as well, but maybe a little less so, whereas in the UK I think it's a very dominant headline. Like, do you do you notice differences in attention and focus across the geographies where you're active?
SPEAKER_03There are definitely differences, yes. Although I think the headlines are broadly the same, the emphasis that is placed either on the growth agenda, so how do we drive more growth versus the cost agenda, how do we make things more affordable, differs. But it's usually those two tunes that are being played. Uh, one of the kind of interesting lenses through which we look at this is our work on food waste, uh, which is definitely having a moment right now. We've been working on food waste for decades. You mentioned the court old commitment, we've been driving collaborative action on this agenda, um, not just in the UK, actually globally for quite some time. And what's very interesting in the US is that although there's clearly massive environmental benefits to reducing food waste, a third of all food that's grown is wasted. And if you were to calculate all the greenhouse gas emissions associated with that food waste, it would be the third largest country after the US and China as a source of emissions, right? So there's huge environmental benefits, but that's not what's resonating in the US. What's resonating about food waste in the US is the household benefit, the social benefit from it, and also this moral sense that people have that food waste is wrong. And I think that's that's quite interesting, whereas having a food waste conversation in the EU is much more driven by a conversation about the environmental benefit. So the same program has different traction for different reasons, but it's having a moment across the board.
SPEAKER_02It's interesting how the messaging is evolving and needs to evolve pretty fast to land the same sort of objectives uh in different places. Where do you think we're sitting on the green hushing versus greenwashing spectrum in the food industry? Do you think we're more leaning towards one or the other or somewhere in between?
SPEAKER_03Oh, that's a great question. I I think now we're more leaning towards green hushing. I think there are some businesses who are rightly still very proud in communicating their strategies. And a really nice example of this. Last night I was at the dinner that Sedexo organized for their Cook for Change program. So this is a global cooking competition that Sedexo organized. Sedexo, I think the world's largest contractator is certainly one of them. So hundreds of chefs competing in this cooking competition. And some of the criteria by which they're assessing uh this competition are sustainable diets. And so, so how compatible is this diet with planetary boundaries, but also food waste. So, how is this dish also using all parts of the produce and so forth? And I think that is such a nice example and a storytelling platform within Sedexo and then outside of Sedexo to tell that story. But it's also backed up by the fact that Sedexo has taken massive action on food waste and sustainable diets. They will hit the 50% reduction in food waste by 2030 target in a way that very few businesses will, and that is no mean fee. And they've done mass deployment of technology, uh processes, training to like changed all their policies to achieve that goal. So I think on the one hand, you see businesses who've had a really integrated bold strategy are quite rightly communicating that, and maybe others who have in the past talked big but acted small in pilots getting a bit quieter.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I want to also explore two topics, Catherine, that you didn't touch on as themes that were hot or cold, but which I'm hearing a lot about from different circles. One is EPR, and I'm finding EPR to be a really interesting, under talked about topic. And so I was having a chat with Michael Cabori, former chief sustainability officer at Starbucks earlier this year, and I was asking him, like, what are the big things that I should be thinking of? And he said EPR. And the more I started speaking about EPR with people who are in food sustainability, the more I started hearing. But it's not really talked about outside of the deep bowels of the consumer-packaged food space. The other is nutrient density and nutrition. And every time I meet Henry Dimbleby, this is a topic that's high on his agenda. And I'm sure you've you've experienced that as well. And I think he's right. I think it is going to be a big and important topic for the food space. I know grocery is onto it already, but I don't think it's really hit consumer food other than as a maybe response to a Zempic and GLP1 drugs and so on. Uh, but I could see that in a matter of time, whether it's in two years, three years, four years, five years, I don't know, but nutrient density being as big a sustainability-like issue as let's say resilience. How do you think about these two topics? Are they anywhere on your agenda and where would you place them in the priority stack?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, great question. And two things that we we think about a lot. So starting off thinking about EPR or extended producer responsibility, this is actually a kind of principle, really, uh, in terms of legislation. So polluter pays is the principle that underpins it. The idea being that somebody who puts a certain material onto the market pays for the end of life of that material. Uh the UK has just introduced packaging EPR to the market. So that's making a massive difference in the UK market, and we're very involved in that. And there are packaging EPR schemes in many other markets. What's super interesting also about EPR at a kind of principal level is that it's it's extendable. So you can imagine textiles EPR schemes. We even think about what a food EPR scheme could look like, i.e., what would it look like if businesses who put food on the market, who sell food in supermarkets or in restaurants had to pay for the disposable of waste food? And what would that do in terms of the way they design this products? But to stay in the here and now, we have long been calling for and supporting the introduction of packaging EPR in the UK, and we support the introduction of it in other markets as well. For the reason that as a system intervention, it incentivizes the whole system to design better circular systems. It has uh enabled or should enable the delivery of some of the goals we set in the UK plastics pact. We're just now launching the UK Packaging Pact, which is looking to kind of extend our focus of from just plastics as a packaging material to all packaging materials and working really closely with the bodies that over. The packaging EPR system in the UK to translate that into those actual system improvements. So I'm not surprised that your contact to Starbucks highlighted it because businesses right now are being landed with huge EPR bills, right? These are kind of seven-figure sums that businesses are paying to fund local authorities to collect packaging materials for recycling. And therefore, quite rightly, businesses are wanting to understand well, how will that money get spent? How do we improve the performance of that overall system? And how do I get rewarded for making more sustainable packaging choices? So it's a big intervention. It's a big policy intervention which can really help drive system transformation if the right things happen off the back of it. And one of the reasons we're launching the UK Packaging Pact is to create that space where everyone can come together and make those scale plays for better infrastructure and better packaging. Nutrition density, yeah, of course. And actually, last year we did a piece of work to create a net zero transition plan for the UK food and drink sector to think about how we get from A to B as an economy on food and drink. And as we released this report and followed up and did more engagement, one of the big questions or next steps that needed to be taken was to think about this from a nutrition perspective and a nutrient density perspective, because clearly measuring the carbon footprint of food is only one relevant metric. We need to be thinking about the nutrient density of the food we're consuming as well. And Henry is absolutely brilliant on this. I totally agree. And uh and particularly on the potential impact of GLP1s. I would also highlight Chris Whitty, if you've if you've not yet heard him speak on this topic, that's super interesting as well. As his diagnosis is actually, we mustn't let the rise of GLP1s distract us from the real challenge of childhood obesity and it's and its close correlation with areas of high deprivation as a country. And so I think a national strategy on nutrition should really have that as its number one focus and and not get too distracted by the by what is not a not a preventative approach, right? GLP1s are a cure for something that's already got kind of way way past the point of um of where we want to be.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Super interesting. And Catherine, I want to stick with EPR for a moment. And to me, it seems that EPR legislation, or let's say the EPR movement, because when I was first exposed to it 10, 15 years ago, it was a movement and an ideology and an idea. It wasn't really anything in practice in a big way. But it seems to me that this has been more effective than a lot of the other legislation that sustainability, let's say, practitioners or advocates have tried to pass through. And I think, and I'd love to test my thinking with you, I think one reason is that it's a it's a federated topic. And so in the US, for instance, every state is passing its own EPR legislation. Uh, in Europe as well, it seems like every member of the EU has a lot of liberty and freedom to sort of think of its own way of doing this, which means that you get many more points of action, basically. You don't need to kind of be in a bottleneck choke point where one entity has to drive action or step back or step forward. The other is that I think that it's sidestepped the ideological alignment with ESG that has plagued the climate change side of this, in that it seems to be mostly pegged as a municipal topic. This is mostly about waste management, clean streets. Everyone can kind of get behind that. And if you say to, you know, let's say an sort of average person in Portland, Oregon, that, hey, does it make sense that a big consumer brand pays the cost of cleaning up the waste that happens after I eat their chocolate bars? The average person, I assume, would say, yeah, I'd have no problem with that. Do you think I'm right? Like, are these the reasons why EPR seems to be actually passing through relatively untalked about with not much controversy?
SPEAKER_03I think those are great observations. And definitely, as you were talking, I was thinking about on the flip side how hard it's been to get progress on a global plastic pollution treaty, right? So you think about the one of the challenges here being uh single-use plastic packaging and the problems associated with that, whether it's litter or whether it's the lack of recyclability, what is going to be effective at tackling that? And EPR certainly has moved much faster or can move much faster for the reasons that you point to than the global plastic pollution treaty has. I think it has the benefit of being both a a piece of circularity policy that promotes that circular system, but also a form of taxation, which kind of moves the who pays for this problem from the taxpayer to the businesses who, as you say, when you ask people and consumers kind of who do you think should pay for this, that is that is where they're looking. So yeah, I do think it has avoided the so far the politicization that some other more kind of typically net zero aligned um policies have. I think there's also maybe an interesting parallel with flooding, right? Which is that when flooding happens near you, a bit like when litter happens near you, you want someone to take action. You might not call that a climate-related policy in the same way that you might not call EPR a climate-related policy, even though the the upshot is that they are climate-related. And I guess there's a clue for the rest of us in that as to how we should be thinking about storytelling and communicating other sustainability topics, which is how do we not call them circular economy, how do we not call them sustainability, but call them better products, better services, um, better things in your life and your community?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very interesting. How do you think about adverse incentives that we end up creating? Where because, you know, there's a there's a there's always been this sort of trade-off between single-use plastic and climate change mitigation and emissions reduction, right? Where in many cases single-use plastic is lower emissions than many of the other materials you might use in place of single-use plastic. I think that a lot of EPR regimes also kind of shift maybe away from certain substrates and towards other substrates, and you have these conflicting agendas. How do you think about this, given that rap, I guess, has always had its roots in circularity rather than climate change, even though the two have overlapping areas? And the worst place is to be sort of attacked by the left and the right because you're somehow the wrong mix of ideologies. But I'd love to just get your thoughts on how you navigate this territory.
SPEAKER_03We we talk a lot about best current truth and being really led by the science on these things. So part of what you're pointing at here is what's called eco-modulation in EPR scheme design, which is that effectively the packaging materials get rewarded for being better for the environment. Of course, how you define better is multi-dimensional as you're as you're pointing to. And it's really important that that that both reflects the realities of the system, systems available, i.e., you can only, if a material can actually be recycled, there's a difference between something being recyclable and it actually having recycling infrastructure available in practice. So that I think that's quite an important dimension. And there's also things which surprise people. So, for example, we surprised ourselves a few years ago when we were looking at one of the main applications of single-use plastic packaging, which is to wrap up uh fruit and veg. Um, we had assumed that actually this plastic packaging was serving a really important function of preventing food waste and that preventing food waste, because food waste has such a high environmental footprint, actually the impact of the packaging was worth it because the trade-off was there with food waste. So we were making this claim, but we realized we didn't have the research to back it up. So we so we did the research and we looked at what happened when you removed the plastic packaging from certain key uh fresh produce uh items. And what we found was actually counter to what we'd been saying and what our hypothesis had been, which was that actually when you remove that plastic packaging, you reduced the food waste overall. And the reason for that was that two reasons. One was that when you remove the plastic packaging from, say, your bag of apples, people bought fewer apples and they wasted less in their home. So instead of buying the pack of six, maybe a person in a single household would just buy the two apples and they'd eat both apples. And the second reason was that without the packaging, there was no date label. So there was no date telling you, okay, these apples are kind of and so but and then people were not using their senses. So you take off the date label, you take off the packaging, you reduce food waste. So then we changed our guidance. We work with industry to start removing that form of single-use packaging. So I use that story as a way of um illustrating that we've got to be quite specific about the applications of different packaging types in different contexts and be led by the science, which is changing and materials get innovated and systems improve as well.
SPEAKER_02It's also so fascinating how actually understanding the user experience or the buyer experience has such a big impact on this. I mean, when you say when you say this about the multi-pack, I immediately thought about like whenever I want a garlic clove, like I end up having to buy a two-pack, basically. And and actually, that almost certainly one of those is going to be wasted. So you know, it really brings it to life. Catherine, I want to maybe come back a little to your experience of working with sustainability leaders across the spectrum. And I want to ask: you interact with many sustainability teams, many chief sustainability officers, many people who maybe should be chief sustainability officers, but for whatever reason don't have the title. If you think of the most effective sustainability leader you know, what do you think this individual does well?
SPEAKER_03This is uh this is a great question. And I'm really lucky in my job because I get to meet so many of these folks from around the world. To your earlier point, maybe have some recency bias. Um, but there were a couple of people I with yesterday that I see doing a really impactful job. So Emma Keller, who heads up sustainability for Nestle in UK and Ireland, is a really effective sustainability leader. And one of the things that I really like about her approach is that she makes very targeted and focused interventions at a system level. So, for example, Nestle have been sitting on the Net Zero Council in the UK, which is a kind of government-convened body to help different industries create their net zero transition plans. So Emma and Nestle, as a business, and with Emma's drive, have been convening and facilitating and enabling this to happen. But at the same time, she'll go back into her business and make the kind of really specific initiatives that they they can make and focus on the topics, like for them, it's Regen Ag, where they can make a difference. And then the other individual from a very different business I wanted to highlight was uh Nick Brown, who's the sustainability director at Premier Foods. I really admire Nick. He's a true leader in the system. And what I what I really like about Nick is that every conversation has a systems lens. So he will he will come in and he will be joining the dots and he will make sure that we resurface up and we think about okay, so how does this going to connect to the nature agenda if we're talking about net zero and how does this connect to the commercial agenda? But at the same time, he's working with the brand teams within his business to activate on food waste and and make things happen. So I guess what they have in common is this ability to lift their gaze up to that broader system, which can feel quite crowded and quite busy and make targeted interventions to help progress the collective effort at the same time as looking back within their business and leading the teams within their businesses through specific relevant interventions, changes which are consistent with that brand's identity, but which are pushing towards those bigger goals.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I really like both of those. I mean, we've seen that firsthand with Nick and Premier through working with them and with Emma, I agree entirely. I think Emma also has a really nice way of bringing things to life in ways that are practical and easy to understand. Uh the example I think I'm remembering is where they they had a team go out to farms and wanted to show what the power of regen ag looks like, and they took some clothes and buried them under different types of soil, and actually you could kind of see sometime later, some days or weeks later, the the clothes had had um degraded to different extents based on the richness of the soil, and you could actually see the impact playing out kind of really right in front of your eyes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it helps they're both really fun people too, right? And I think there's in what can be quite a hard and sometimes quite technical space, a bit of storytelling, a bit of levity also goes a long way. So I appreciate them for that.
SPEAKER_02I think especially, Catherine, those of us who've been in this space for a while know that you kind of, it's a small circle. You get to know everyone, everyone gets to know you, and also you sort of start to appreciate how this is business and you need to make it a win for all the different stakeholders involved. It's not just about the message, it's not just about the sort of the mission credentials, but it has to work for Nestle and Premier, it has to work for their customers, it has to work for the suppliers. And I think that that sort of maturity of having done this for a while really shows in some of the sustainability leaders who've been around for a bit.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I totally agree with that.
SPEAKER_02I want to close off, Catherine, with uh a question again, uh a little more about you, which is what do you know now that you wish you'd known when you started the CEO gig?
SPEAKER_03Oh, that is a wonderful question. Well, I guess I wish I'd known there was going to be a war in the Middle East. Um if that's not too dark a thing uh to say. I think one of the hardest things has been not having a crystal ball, honestly. Yeah. And so many of the assumptions that we made, that we make on our kind of six-month cycle. So even doing a strategy day with my team last summer, fresh into the CEO role, talking about what we think are the kind of major opportunities and risks ahead, we probably overstated the kind of upside um overall in the economy and underestimated the amount of risk and volatility there could be. So I think one of the biggest adjustments for me is that I will be a CEO in a context which is very different to the context I was a director in. Honestly, it feels like the world has changed that fast. And now I'm in it and I'm adjusting. But I think I if I could go back to myself a year ago and say, hey, it's gonna be a volatile world out there, so be re be ready to move fast. Uh that would be helpful.
SPEAKER_01Do you think, Catherine, you're naturally a wartime CEO or a peacetime CEO?
SPEAKER_03You know, in account, like because my background is in account management, and we I've always had this thought model in my mind of uh hunters and farmers, right? So you have some people who are really good at stewarding relationships and building and growing partnerships, and you have some people who are great at going out and and winning. I've tended to think of myself as more of a farmer by preference than a than a hunter. And I'm really sharpening my hunting knives, I guess, or my maybe, maybe it's more of my my shepherding, sheep herding is probably a better metaphor for how we do things at a wrap than than hunting. But but I think really it's about there's a real need for people to go out and lead from the front, out there in the market, be propositional, and and make stuff happen at pace right now. And I'm definitely up for that challenge.
SPEAKER_02I couldn't agree more. I think it is almost more exciting when the market in the sustainability space is where it is, because it means that actually it's interesting, it's exciting, and there's real value creation that you can do on all sides. I also think the headline rap CEO sharpens hunting knives is a keeper.
SPEAKER_03It's not in my briefing notes.
SPEAKER_02Catherine, on that note, thank you so much for joining us. Really been a pleasure having you.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for having me. It's been an absolute joy.
SPEAKER_02I hope you enjoyed this conversation. To make sure you don't miss future episodes, hit subscribe. And if you want to support the show, please consider leaving us a review. And before you go, if you'd like to meet me in person in Chicago on the 15th of April, we're hosting the State of Sustainability Summit. Drop me a note at cef at ultruistic.com if you'd like to attend. We'll put all this in the show notes. Look forward to seeing you there.