Episode 37 The Dark Knight & Captain America:The Winter Soldier

Dave & Christopher kick off the beginning of the summer blockbuster season by going back to the start of the superhero film era (approx. 2008 to 2019) to review two of the best examples of why the genre took off the way it did.  

The boys review the 2008 superhero/crime drama "The Dark Knight" starring Christian Bale, Academy-award winning best supporting actor Heath Ledger, Sir Michael Caine, Gary Oldman, Aaron Eckhart, Morgan Freeman and Maggie Gyllenhaal and directed by Christopher Nolan.  

They also review the 2014  superhero/espionage spy film "Captain America-The Winter Soldier" starring Chris Evans, Sebastian Stan, Anthony Mackie, Scarlett Johannson, Robert Redford and Samuel L Jackson and directed by Joe and Anthony Russo

"If You Were Here" © writers: Tom Bailey, Alannah Currie, and Joe Leeway performed by J.Christopher Thomas

"Ride Captain Ride "© writers: Mike Pinera, Frank "Skip" Konte  performed by Blues Image

Transcript

The Dark Knight

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Hello and welcome to Let's Go Get Some Ice Cream. The weekly film for theater podcast hosted by me, Dave, and my co-host Christopher. We worked together for several years at a small-town movie theater and ever since I've seen the wealth of movies that have seen thousands over the years. We provide unique perspectives on some lovely movies everybody's seen, and some enough of it. But sure. If you're looking for a good movie or two to enjoy that you've come to the right place, let's get started.

SPEAKER_06 0:35

Okay, so alright, so here we are at another episode of Let's Go Get Some Ice Cream. Yes. Um today we're uh doing a couple more movies. The first one we're gonna do is Dark Knight, the Dark Knight, I should say.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_06 0:52

That was my choice. And so um I had a lot of fun researching this, as you can imagine. Oh yeah. Um I found out something interesting, which I guess I really should have known a long time ago. And I and I'm guessing you probably already know this, but I watched an interview with um with Christopher Nolan, and he said how much he loved the movie Heat, and how it was a direct, almost a shot for shot correlation or between Heat and the Dark Knight. And then I looked at it and I was like, Oh my god. Right, now that you say that, because I didn't know it's the bank heist and then the whole like the two main characters who are basically the polar opposites to it, but they both have that obsession.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:35

They both they're neither of them really has healthy home lives or whatever, because they're so like, I'm about law, I'm about stealing. So we're gonna be able to do that. I'm about chaos, right? Right. I don't care about because De Niro was at least he's honest. Like I don't, you know, if I had you know, what it was that thing, if the heat's on, I'll drop you in 30 seconds or whatever. Yeah, but Pacino's like going through the motions of being in a relationship, he's he's checked out. He's all he cares about is you know, like he said. Right. Anyway, so the Joker and Batman are kind of the parallels that I I was like, wow, I had did not catch that at all.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Now that you yeah, I didn't see that interview, but yeah, I totally see where he's he specifically said, not like oh as an influence and I thought about it.

SPEAKER_06 2:16

He's like, what did he do? And my what did Michael Mann do? Okay, I'm gonna do it here, blah blah blah. Everything like you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Well, I know him and his brother, not to cut you off. No, it's okay. They both co-wrote this.

SPEAKER_06 2:26

Yes. Well, with David Goyer. Okay. Because I guess the Nolan brothers aren't really comic book people. They just wanted the the heat part of it. Right. And as a matter of fact, from what I understand from the origin of the movie, is that Nolan was supposed to do Troy, the movie Troy. Right. And then I just read that the director came back and said, No, no, if I you don't give it to me, I'll quit or whatever it is. They gave it to him, they said, Okay, Nolan, we'll give you this other thing. And Nolan wanted to do something like Heat. And then uh they said, Well, no, you can have Batman. And he's like, I don't know, I don't know shit about Batman, but I got this heist thing I'm gonna do. So and they said, Piers David Goyer, he knows about comic books, he can guide you, fill that in for you.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

I'm gonna FYI for people who didn't know the director you're referring to, because I just read that about Christopher Nolan. He was because he's doing the Odyssey this and Troy is based on the Iliad. Right, right. So Oh, I didn't catch that either.

SPEAKER_06 3:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

So it's ironic because Wolfgang Peterson, the director, was in the process of developing a Batman versus Superman movie. Right.

SPEAKER_06 3:30

I think Josh Well he had Troy first, yes, and then he dropped it for the Batman Superman.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

Because the the storyline about it was really, really I read it, I can't tell you it's been a while. But it was really intriguing. I want to say Josh Hartnett was in it. They're talking about Jude Batman Superman. Yeah. Okay. Jude Law's name. There's a bunch of these back then up and coming actors. Right. Um, but yeah, Wolfgang, you're right, was supposed to do Troy, but he dropped it for the Batman versus Superman. And then that didn't happen for whatever the studio, I don't know, balk that money or whatever happened.

SPEAKER_06 4:02

His vision of Batman was like super violent, and they said the studio said nope.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

And you know, it's funny because you have Deadpool now, and I that's true. I know that was like well, that was this was 2000s. Yeah, early early 2000s. So it's like a decade and plus before Deadpool, but still And this was all about the toys.

SPEAKER_06 4:21

Yes. All the movies back then were like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

It's well, Lucas started all that.

SPEAKER_06 4:26

So you're gonna have pee Batman murdering people, and how are we gonna sell that to kids? And they're like, no, not at all.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

You know, it's sad because I mean, I'm just interjecting real quick that I think that would have been a really, really interesting movie. That could have seen it. He's ahead of his time.

SPEAKER_06 4:38

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Yeah. Really could have set a different standard for what we see as superhero movies, right?

SPEAKER_06 4:44

And ironically, Nolan did that.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Right. So it's funny how it all kind of came full circle, right? Yeah. You're right. Nolan didn't know anything. I know he did Batman Begins. Yes. And then this movie. Right. Um, and I what I loved about all this, and yes, Wolfgang Peterson going back to Troy, which I liked.

SPEAKER_06 5:03

I think you were Yeah, Troy was okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Right. Um, but I'm glad Nolan got to do this.

SPEAKER_06 5:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Batman Begins was the beginning. I mean, that was like wow. Right. Who would have really figured Christian Bale? I like Christian Bale as an actor, I think he's a really good actor. Right. But he really sold me as Bruce Wayne, then of course playing The Dark Knight. Yeah. But this movie with Nolan and and it's based basically on Heat is amazing.

SPEAKER_06 5:27

Yeah, and like I said, I I when you see it, I mean, and I of course recommend you see the movie if you haven't already. Uh, and if you've seen Heat, he think Heat was 95, 96, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Somewhere around there.

SPEAKER_06 5:40

Right. So um you should see both of those movies. Definitely. But definitely, I I literally watched Heat before because I was so intrigued by what he said, and I was like, oh my god, you know you're right. And it's like there's so many parallels. But anyway, I don't want to get lost in that. Right. Um also I would say the precursor to Dark Knight is obviously Batman Begins, but on a like a symbolic level, uh Tim Burton's Batman was 80 something.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

89.

SPEAKER_06 6:06

Yeah. And he kind of I think he really kind of set the tone for superhero movies. And I know Donner had the Superman movies, I think that was early 80s, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

No, that was 77. 70, no, 78 with Superman. And I know he actually had filmed one and two together.

SPEAKER_06 6:25

Superman?

SPEAKER_02 6:26

One and two were filmed simultaneously. He got fired from Superman 2. A lot of people don't know that, and that's where the other director came in. But they say it's 70% of that movie, Superman 2, is basically Donner's. But yeah, I'm I'm getting off track like you, but yes, it set a precedent. And then Burton came in with a darker vision. Right. And that's what you're getting at.

SPEAKER_06 6:46

Right. So Burton's the one that really set the standard for what would be the dark night, what, 10 years later?

SPEAKER_02 6:52

20 years later? No, you're right. 10 years, like a decade.

SPEAKER_06 6:55

Uh so that kind of dark, I mean, Burton's wasn't based in reality so much, but still that that idea of Batman being a dark brooding figure more close to really to the comics, as opposed to the light fun, let's sell some toys. That's literally what all they all they wanted to do, especially with Star Wars after Star Wars.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Right. I was gonna say also the old 60s Batman with Adam West and Burton Ward, right? The zing, pow. And Burton, I mean uh Schumacher. Right, that's later, but and it's actually before this, but yes, Burton's idea is the dark night, that little darker vision of Batman, right? And I appreciated that he didn't have the zing pow, whatever, right?

SPEAKER_06 7:34

Right, right. Um yeah, because Schumacher kind of did that with uh Clooney and having the whole humor and he did it prior to that with Batman Forever with Val Kilmer a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

Oh, okay. And I know Kilmer got it's this is a kind of another goes into it because he was in heat, and while he was being playing in heat, real quick, kids, um, he used to get messed with or joked with dinero like, oh, come save us, Batman. So he was always getting prodded by that. So, but yeah, but going back to the whole essence of Batman and the Dark Knight, yes, I think Burton laid out something that was plausible, right? That it didn't have to be this lighthearted. I mean, Superman wasn't. I mean, there are parts of it, you know, there's some dark moments.

SPEAKER_06 8:20

I I I was gonna um pose to you. Like, do you think that and I guess I can talk about it later, but I was gonna ask you later if you thought that the Joker's motives were right. Because when I think about it.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

It's funny you said that because I was watching that movie and hearing him, right? Because it's all in chaos, but he was basically saying, you know, we're basically the same. Right. You have this moral code, right? Because he he's actually tempting Batman to to actually break the code and like kill me. I mean, go ahead. Right. You know, like you wanted me.

unknown 8:53

Here I am.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

I wanted to see what you'd do. And you didn't disappoint. You let five people die. Then you let Dent take your place. Even to a guy like me, that's cold. Where's Dent? Those mob fools want you gone so they can get back to the way things were. But I know the truth. There's no going back. You've changed things forever. And why do you want to kill me? I don't want to kill you. What would I do without you? Go back to ripping off mob dealers? No, no. No. No, you. You complete me. You're garbage, you kills your money. Don't talk like one of them. You're not. Even if you'd like to be. To them, you're just a freak. Like me. They need you right now. When they don't, they'll cast you out. Like a leper. See, they're morals, their code. It's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. I'll show you. When the chips are down, these uh these civilized people, they'll eat each other. See, I'm not a monster.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

I'm just ahead of the curve. But the money thing with the mobsters, right? And you know how he just burns it because I burned my half and he steals from them.

SPEAKER_06 10:38

Because it doesn't really care about the money. It's more about the principle of like it's it's like it's almost like a philosophical battle. It's like I want to prove to you that you guys are no better than me. Right. You guys tell me I'm the monster, blah, blah, blah. But really, who's really the monster? You're doing fucked up shit too. Right. You know, all these gangsters are stealing stuff, and you know, they got this bank, quote unquote. They got the they have their own bank. It's like, so the bank's fraudulent. Right. So I'm knocking over a fraudulent bank, but I'm the bad guy.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

It's funny, yeah, because it's topical in its own way. Yeah. Of intertwining.

SPEAKER_06 11:09

Surveillance, the whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Right. And it's funny. I was thinking that as I was watching, here's this movie was what, 2008? 2008, yeah. And this is even before. I mean, I've I've known that we've always been spied on. I'm not trying to get this conspiracy conspiracy theorist here, but you know what I mean. But I mean, look at these. I mean, I mean, hold up my phone and it records.

SPEAKER_06 11:29

Listening to you right now. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

But it's interesting because they Lucius was in there and he even goes, wait a minute, you know, I don't, yeah, this is too far. And and that's the thing, how far is too far? But again, it goes back to what the Joker said. Right. You think I'm the monster, but who really is the monster here?

SPEAKER_06 11:44

You'll break the law, you'll uh violate everyone's privacy to catch me.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Right. So you're hiding behind these laws and these morals, whatever, right? But you're no better, you're no worse than I am. Right. Except that you have all this to hide behind.

SPEAKER_06 11:57

It's really fascinating the way that it's set up.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

And it's it's actually brilliant.

SPEAKER_06 12:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

You know, but it's told in a way, and and it's not wrong. I I mean, now that you proposed that question, I can't say he was totally wrong. The way he went about it, maybe, but you know.

SPEAKER_06 12:12

Yeah, I I I I've only I watched it a couple times and I was like, okay, if I'm watching it from his perspective, are the things he does, are they bad? On their face, like no question.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

And I mean, he only I mean the certain innocent people he hurt along the way, sure. But the criminals that he was Did he? I mean, people in the street getting hurt while he was chasing the when they were had uh Harvey Dent in the back.

SPEAKER_06 12:40

Oh, I guess the cops that were in the well no, there's other people there. There's people driving in it? Okay, I didn't see that.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

Well, when they're taking Dent, right? They have that uh caravan. The armored car, yeah. Right, and then there's other people that are getting hit by the truck and all that. Oh, yeah, you're right. Yeah. That's all I'm saying. I mean, there's innocent people, but for the most part, to answer what you're saying is that he really just went after criminals and some of the police who were actually corrupt anyway.

SPEAKER_06 13:05

Right.

unknown 13:05

Right.

SPEAKER_06 13:06

A lot of them were corrupt, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

And there's things, there's elements to the Joker that yes, I can get on board with and agree with. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 13:11

Right. And uh, he also mentions the whole thing about a caravan of soldiers getting killed, and we would all and that's happening, that's been happening since we've been alive. Yeah. It's like stuff, oh, there was uh attack somewhere in the Middle East, and there was whatever, 20 American casualties and a thousand, you know, Turkish. When it's like you're like, wow, that's like a thousand people died. You don't even it's you don't even think about it. This goes right in one ear and out the other.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

But yes.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

The mob has plans, the cops have plans, Gordon's got plans. You know, they're schemers. Schemers trying to control their little worlds. I'm not a schemer. I try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are. So when I say uh when I say that you and your girlfriend was nothing personal, you know that I'm telling the truth. You you know what I noticed? Nobody panics when things go according to plan. Even if the plan is horrifying. If tomorrow I tell the press that like a gangbanger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics. Because it's all part of the plan. But when I say that one little old mare will die, well then everyone loses their minds.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

Getting back to what he was trying to accomplish, right? It's almost kind of like Fight Club, right? You're fighting the establishment, right? There's essences there. Right. And the Joker was just there to really throw it in your face and prove you that I dare you to say that I'm really the the villain here.

SPEAKER_06 14:55

Yeah. How dare you judge me on what grounds? You're just you're just as fucked up as I am.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Right. So that's that concept, if you look at it now, that through different eyes, right? Yeah. Um, it's still a fantastic, great movie. I'm not trying to tell people to get political. We're not we're just kind of political at all.

SPEAKER_06 15:12

It's more philosophical than it. I mean, I I like this kind of stuff because that's true. It's like uh there's a there's a philosophical conundrum about doing the greatest good for the greatest amount of people. There's a scene later on where Joker says you can either go save Dent or you can save Rachel. The correct thing to do, the moral thing to do would have been Dent. Because supposedly Dent's the white knight and he's gonna save the city. Okay, well, you should sacrifice your woman, even though it's hard to do. But if you're so moral, you should have you mean you should do it. But he what did he do? Rachel, go right to Rachel.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

And philosophically and unintentionally, he does do what you're saying, right? He goes right directly.

SPEAKER_06 15:57

He goes himself. Right. I care about my girlfriend.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

But that's where the Joker led him astray.

SPEAKER_06 16:02

Right. See, you're no better than me, because you did the selfish thing. Right. You didn't save the your white knight, quote unquote.

SPEAKER_02 16:08

And I'm kind of uh going off what you said, piggybacking up what you're saying, that the philosophies in this movie, yeah, you're right. There's yeah, it's more philosophical than it is about politics.

SPEAKER_06 16:19

Right. You know, two sides of the same coin, all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 16:21

Well, what did Harvey Dent say? Because I like that little thing about the being the hero, then you turn into the villain.

SPEAKER_06 16:27

If you yeah, live long, you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. Right. Because they're so closely related.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

And that's yeah, that's very poignant. And it's like, wow, I mean you're you are, you're two sides of that coin, right? Yeah, it's very thin. And you know, because like I said, philosophically, yeah, great movie. And then it plays true to even today. I mean, re-watching it, because I haven't watched it in forever, it was like, you're just blown away how great that movie is. Yeah. And I'm not again, f philosophy all aside, just on a on its own, phenomenal.

SPEAKER_06 17:04

It's just a flick. A Saturday afternoon flick. Oh, even I don't care. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Yeah, it is amazing.

SPEAKER_06 17:08

I would love, I mean, I have I'm watching it on my computer, not this one, but the other one. But you know, I think a lot of it's an IMAX, and I believe those first couple scenes are IMAX. Yes, they are, where the guys are rappelling across the buildings and stuff, and it's just like just gorgeous to look at. It's amazing. And and I appreciate the effort that he puts into making the movie look the way it does. I know that his uh I want to say his director of photography won an Academy Award for Batman Begins, maybe. Probably right. Maybe for this one too, but I know for the first one it was like it's so well done. Because that was kind of this a similar filming process. Anyway, uh we're getting all over something. Yeah. So um uh no one was given the uh mandate to uh work on Batman Begins. Of course, Batman Begins, I want to say, was like uh 150 million, and then they made like 400 mil, something like that. So at the end of that movie, there's a scene where they well, I won't say, let's just say at the end of that movie there's a set, it's a clear setup for a sequel, let's put it that way.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Well, yeah, I know what you're referring to, and I don't think at the end of Batman Begins. I don't think you're gonna ruin it because I don't even know if he was actually at the end, it's the it's the Joker card. It's the Joker card.

SPEAKER_06 18:19

He says, I'll look into it.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

It's Lieutenant Gordon goes, Hey, here's and he has a calling card, right? Right. And I remember because Nolan, you know, had just uh done Batman. He's already on his way to being director we all know and love that I I know.

SPEAKER_06 18:33

But well, that one definitely put him on the map because he had been known for more smaller fare. I think he did Memento maybe before this.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

No, he did Memento, Prestige. I think he did quite a few. Was it after this?

SPEAKER_06 18:45

I think he I want to say the prestige was even before this. Maybe. I know he had done more smaller level.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

So Well, Memento was his well, he did a movie called Following, which was like a 70-minute film or whatever something, like a almost a student film, but it was given a lot of accolades, and then he did Memento, which catapulted him.

SPEAKER_06 19:04

Right. This guy's a really sharp and very uh clever writer.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

So, real quick, the budget for Batman Begins was 150 and it made close to 400. So that to them is a win. And I mean that got people back in about with comic books, and Nolan was a that rare talent.

SPEAKER_06 19:21

Yeah, so now he's gone from more independent, smaller, fair to now like, oh, he can do a blockbuster. Oh yeah. Because that's clearly a good and that's none of that advertising budget, none of that shit. That's clearly a win for this for the studio. And so at the end of the movie, they had the old Joker card thing, but there was no mandate on actually doing a sequel, a sequel, or certainly not a trilogy. Well, yeah, because of how much he made the Dark Nat now we're with Dark Knight.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

So for this movie, real quick, since you're mentioning money, the budget for Batman The Dark Knight was 185 million. Yeah. And it went on into gross how much? One billion dollars. That is huge. Yeah. That definitely catapulted, you know, now there was no question, will he do it? Wasn't so much would he finish and do a trilogy, because he's Nolan now. Now you can basically what do you who wants a movie? You want a movie? You know, oh Nolan, we want you. We want your certain, you know, he was proven. Right. Um, well, he did this, and then he what Inception and Interstellar, which are all were huge movies. Huge, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 20:25

Probably not as big as this though, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:27

This is probably the biggest one. Yeah, yeah, this is it. Because even Oppenheimer made almost a billion, but yeah, this is the biggest one.

SPEAKER_06 20:35

Yeah, but it definitely put him up in that upper tier super A list of directors. Oh, yeah. As opposed to like more of an indie guy. Right. Uh, so anyway, see, he had the menu to do Dark Knight. They uh he decided to cast Christian Vale, who had just come off machinist. He had to gain almost a hundred pounds because he was super skinny for that movie.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

He did, actually, but yeah, and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 20:56

And then he had to tone it down even while because he got so bulky. Yeah, you could see in Batman Begins there's scenes where he's fighting. I believe it's when he's fighting Liam Neeson on the ice. Right, he's a little kind of well, not quite cut, let's put it that way. Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Well, even the part where he's doing the push-up, he's still a little, but then from there, yeah, he gets a little bit more felt where he yeah.

SPEAKER_06 21:16

He joked the crew called him Fat Man. We're moving fat. Fat Man begins. Uh Studio Execs wanted Ashton Kutcher.

unknown 21:25

Oh god.

SPEAKER_06 21:25

Nolan said, absolutely not. I quit if you get cast that guy. Thank you. And he was made a good call. They also interviewed David DuCovny. And no, no, why not?

SPEAKER_02 21:38

I think Ducovany's good, but I don't see it. I mean, it's nothing against David. I think David's a decent actor.

SPEAKER_06 21:44

I would say just for the physique wise, I don't buy him as like the big muscular dude. But then again, Murphy was it Killian? Is that how to say his name? Killian.

SPEAKER_02 21:53

Killian Murphy.

SPEAKER_06 21:54

And I saw him in the costume. I was like, oh, he's I could buy that.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

So I mean, you might have a point. I mean, I can't. Totally frown on David DeCovney. I guess I'm spoiled because of what he's done, right? And no offense to him as Fox Mulder or whatever. That's right. Good character. But I've seen him in other movies. I mean, I just I mean it's not enough to but I just I see Christian and Christian can elevate or well.

SPEAKER_06 22:18

I was gonna say because of he gained all that weight, no one just told him he needed to get bigger, right? And then he got huge, and no one was like, if this guy will do that for this role, he can play an obsessive Batman, you know, because he's already done it in real life. So that's what got him the role. Anyway, uh Heath Ledger was also up. Um he impressed him with his edition, but he said they both agreed he wasn't right, and then of course that was for Batman begins, and then of course they brought him back for um just movie also because he had done Brokeback between then and that time. Yes, I think that was 2005 or something like that. Yes, and he did not did he get nominated? I don't think he was. Yes, he did. He did?

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Okay, broke back he did, yes.

SPEAKER_06 23:00

Yeah, so no one saw that and said, Oh, sold. Hiari edition, I see him in this movie, you know, you know, getting uh you know academy attention. I I gotta work with him.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

I mean, I Bobby's known even for Heath. I mean, he did smaller affairs, but there's something about him. There's some things that certain people stick out on you, and I remember Heath had that. It's not just charisma, but he had that act, even in his small little part in Monsters Ball playing the sun.

SPEAKER_06 23:25

He was in Monsters Ball. Oh, okay, okay. Yeah. My brain is Swiss cheese nowadays. I thought he was in Monsters Inc. Ball. Monsters Ball. I was like, really? What can you do is he?

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Monsters Ball.

SPEAKER_06 23:40

Monsters Ball, right, right, right, okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

And he really, I mean, in that little small part, you could see, he could carry himself. And that's what I mean.

SPEAKER_06 23:46

I mean even at that age, yeah. Right. Yeah, so the same. That's that's how Nolan felt too. Like, I gotta work with this guy again. I gotta like get him in the next thing I do. Uh, also up for the nut roll was Jake Jillenhall, Henry Cavill, Billy Crudep, Joshua Jackson. No. Crude up, no. Um, Mr., what's his name?

SPEAKER_02 24:08

Mr. Man Man um Manhattan. Dr. Manhattan. Dr. Manhattan. Yeah. Did all right in that, but his dick was out.

SPEAKER_06 24:15

Sorry, I'll cut that out. Anyway, um, yeah. So anyway, Killian Murphy and Christian Bale were the last two people auditioned. Uh Christian Bale got the rule. This is back from Batman Begins. So anyway, cut forward to Dark Knight. Um, Killian Murphy did such a good job. He was cast in this movie as Scarecrow. This was the second one. He just gave it to him.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

Yeah, because he you're right. I remember auditioning for uh Batman, Batman Begins, but no one liked him. Right.

SPEAKER_06 24:43

And then there was that he looked good in the Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

And then he goes, Well, I might have, and it's when he casts him as a scarecrow in the first one. Right. And he played an integral part in Batman Begin. This one he's sprinkled in.

SPEAKER_06 24:54

Right, right, right. He was really I mean, he's good in both. I mean, he's always good. I never see him doing a good actor. Uh Studio Execs wanted Marilyn Manson for Scarecrow, so thank God uh Nolan had you know his uh person he wanted and it was adamant about.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

But I mean, that's we've talked about this, and this is where sometimes these studio heads think they know better, right?

SPEAKER_06 25:15

It's like Yeah, because I don't know. I was just gonna say, like, you need someone like Nolan to be a studio executive, but then someone like that, that talented, would never do that job because they're out making art. Right. So that's where there's this disconnect between there's people that are either pistol pushers or they're artists, and there's a gulf between those two things.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

And I think sometimes it's hard to play both. It is, right? I think Nolan would have been, you're right, because Marilyn Manson is yeah, he's a performer as an as an exec, he could look at that and go, no.

SPEAKER_06 25:45

Right. Just because he dresses or doesn't mean right.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

That doesn't mean anything.

SPEAKER_06 25:50

Right. Um I'll give you the basic plot because I gotta wrap it up here. But uh basically Batman, Lieutenant Gordon, and this new DA, Harvey Dent, form an alliance to dismantle organized crime in Goth in the wake of what happened in Batman Begins.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

Right.

SPEAKER_06 26:05

Um at the end of Batman Begins, if you don't know, they had that they had an Arkham Asylum bust out, and so they had to catch all these criminals again, and Batman is like, sure, I'm up for it. And so this is the follow-up to that where they're gonna like start cleaning up the streets. Right. The Joker, of course, takes issue to that. He might have been one of the people that escaped. Right. That's not really clear, which I think is nice that they don't really spell that out.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

Yeah, I I like that too.

SPEAKER_06 26:29

Yeah. Also, they don't spell out his real backstory. He tells several fake backstories. Right. And you're never to this day, I have no idea. But and I think that's great because it's kind of like a real life unease or something that you and it's funny because all three of those might have been a hint of truth somehow. Which ones?

SPEAKER_02 26:48

All how he talks about, you know how he talks about it. Oh, right, right, right, right. Yeah, right. I mean, could have been his dad, it could have been like little essences of truth being sprinkled in there.

SPEAKER_06 26:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

You know, somehow they're all interconnected, but you don't know that because he tells this person, that person different stuff.

SPEAKER_06 27:04

Right. So no one really knows the truth. Um the the rest of the cast includes Christian Bale, Sir Michael Cain. I forgot that he was actually Sir. Sir, Heath Ledger, of course, Gary Oldman, Aaron Eckhart plays Harvey Dent.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

He did a good job.

SPEAKER_06 27:20

He did. Maggie Gyllenhall plays Rachel Dawes.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

And she came in because um Katie Holmes was supposed to be something happened. Tom Cruise. You're probably right. You're probably right. And because I read something she couldn't fit in her schedule, but I'm not gonna disagree with that. That's that's the rumor, but I that's and then it's like, really? I mean I mean, she wasn't great in Batman, she was okay. You know, I think obviously Jalen Hall is a much better actress.

SPEAKER_06 27:51

Well, yeah, I guess I waited.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

But I mean, but seriously, would she have hurt? No, I mean, I just think it hurt her because she could have got paid more.

SPEAKER_06 27:58

Who? Kate Katie Holmes. Yeah, yeah. But you got Tom.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

Hey, babe, what's the thing?

SPEAKER_06 28:04

You can't outshine me. I mean, I I know your movies make all this money, so like, you know, just pipe down a little bit, you know. You're not in this next one. I, you know, I'm the star in the family. I I'm just making all this shit up. This is for entertainment purposes only, Dark Dead is considered the blueprint for many modern superhero films. It's a crime film that features comic book characters as opposed to typical comic book story style movies and plot. Um, so again, a crime film that features convoic characters, not the other way around. Right. Which I think uh the movies that I've seen that f that follow that format are pretty good for the most part. Like we're gonna the next movie we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 28:41

It follows that format.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

It's funny, these the two kind of parallel each other.

SPEAKER_06 28:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

It's interesting.

SPEAKER_06 28:46

Because you could you could basically take out the convoy character and put in, you know, any kind of action hero or whatever, and then the story still works, but the fact that there's You could almost say like a Jack Ryan film. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

Right?

SPEAKER_06 28:57

Sure. I mean, as an example, yeah, because it's something familiar that people have seen, but it's also different because of the the superhero element. Right. Um the movie's been analyzed for its themes of terrorism post-9-11, the whole spying of Patriot Act thing, because I think this is before the Patriot Act, tech technically. Um, also for its examination of morality and ethics, which is what intrigues me. Yeah. Um, Watchmen was about strictly about philosophy, um, but the greater good, like was that super smart guy or whatever?

SPEAKER_02 29:28

It's like, why Adrian Vint or whatever?

SPEAKER_06 29:30

Right. Like I unleashed these what was that? I think they were some kind of creature he unleashed or whatever to kill a lot of the population for the greater good of the future generations, but they're like, oh, well, you're a villain for doing that. We gotta stop you.

SPEAKER_02 29:44

No, no, I'm it's interesting, right?

SPEAKER_06 29:46

I'm doing the right thing. You guys are trying to stop me from doing the right thing.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

What, Thanos? Joker?

SPEAKER_06 29:51

And now we have Adrian. I love that. That kind of like and you have to think, like, are they right? I mean, it's terrible the idea, but I mean Well, even like as an example, real quick, and Thanos, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:03

Snapping because if we overpopulate, we're gonna not enough people are gonna be able to survive, right? Right in theory. Right.

SPEAKER_06 30:09

I mean, it's I mean, yeah, if he if he's right about what he's saying, you know, assuming that he's not gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Philosophically, right. It's not done just to be cruel. Yeah, I'm looking at the greater good of you know mankind. I'm saving because if we don't, we're gonna die be we're gonna kill ourselves. Right. We're gonna go extinct because we're gonna make ourselves go extinct.

SPEAKER_06 30:27

Sometimes the right thing to do is unpleasant. Like if you have a sick animal, something you have to put down, you don't want to do it. It seems cruel, quote unquote, but yeah, it's crueler to just let them suffer.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

That's the thing, right? No one wants to see anybody suffer.

SPEAKER_06 30:40

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

That's that's a good point.

SPEAKER_06 30:42

Right. But are you a bad guy? If I say, Well, I shot a dog, well, god, you're villain. Well, no, I mean I had to because it had whatever old yellow, right? Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

I mean, he had rabies. Right. And as much as I like.

SPEAKER_06 30:56

And a lot of people would say, No, that's I grew up on a farm, that's what we did, or whatever, blah, blah, blah. So you have this divide, you know. That's where I think of the interesting part of it.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

I concur with that, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:07

Uh let's see. So Dark Knight was first major motion picture to be filmed in high-res, IMAX, and use of CGI was extremely limited. Oh, yeah. No one, no one loves doing practical effects. He'll have a lot of practical stuff that I would did not know. Oh, yeah. You know the what's the most surprising one that's practical in Dark Knight. I'm trying to think. What the face? Semi.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

It was an actual semi.

SPEAKER_06 31:33

It's a prayer. What's the most surprising practical? That was, yeah, yeah. Because people would look at that and say, Oh, that's CGI. No.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

Or they would say that was miniatures. No. No, I know, no. I know because he they had to do it all in one take, I think. Because he goes, It's we're we're paying whatever, and that truck, boom.

SPEAKER_06 31:48

Yeah. The only thing they did is they had a little propulsion thing to flip it up or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

And I think sometimes they say in the you can see the things on the bottom where it had to.

SPEAKER_06 31:57

Oh. Uh, this is the first movie to receive, a first movie of this type to receive major acting awards, Ledger for best supporting. Oh, yeah. He won the Academy Award posthumously. He also was nominated for BAFTA in a Golden Globe.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

In a year of striking film images, perhaps the most unforgettable was that of a man with his face smeared in clown makeup, gleefully sticking his head out of a speeding car, relishing the night wind, and reveling in the chaos he has unleashed on the streets of Gotham City. Menacing, imperial, droll, and diabolical. Heath Ledger, as the Joker in the Dark Knight, kept us all on edge, anxious to see what act of appalling mischief he might commit next. With his previous performance, as well as with a wide range of other roles to which he put his unique signature, Heath Ledger has left us an original and enduring legacy.

SPEAKER_06 33:19

Uh at the time of its release, this is the fourth highest grossing film at to date at 2008. I don't know where it is now. It's probably still top 20, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

No.

SPEAKER_06 33:28

No?

SPEAKER_02 33:29

It's 60 movies that have made a billion dollars. Since then? Wow. Well, since then, it's probably yeah, I mean, there's it was probably maybe 20 then. Maybe. So now it's what more than doubled. So it's now about 58, something like that. It's still in the top 60.

SPEAKER_06 33:49

Yeah, okay. But yeah, I mean So basically that's all I have. I just real quick, as David mentioned, and budget was 185 mil, and made 1 billion dollars. And this is in 2008 during the Great Recession, by the way. Yeah. So this movie kicked ass no matter what. Rotten Tomatoes, 94%, which is great for an almost 20-year-old movie. Metacritic, 85%. My boy, Roger Ebert, Batman and Iron Man, redefine the potential of superhero films, which is absolutely right about that.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

And that's what was nice. And that's what I love about this movie. Right. Real quick, um, that's what I love about Nolan taking practical, right? Yeah, it's centered around a comic book, but he makes it kind of realistic.

SPEAKER_06 34:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

More human.

SPEAKER_06 34:36

Yeah. Oh, one of the other practical things I was gonna say was the building, the hospital blowing it was a real building.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Oh yeah. Even uh Ledger's thing because that the explosive didn't go off like I suppose. So his reaction to being, oh, and he runs on the bus is real.

SPEAKER_06 34:49

Yeah, when they show it, it's like so the building's really blown up. It's not like you know, it's not like his you know, stunt double. That's him walking out, and you know, I guess he had a mark or something where they when he got to a certain point, then they detonated or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

Right.

SPEAKER_06 35:00

But um, yeah, that I mean the practical aspects of it make this movie that puts it over the top. The IMAX, the practical, the strong acting, the very heady plot line of like this good versus evil and blurring the lines between the two, all that makes it just such a great movie to watch. It's not surprising why it's so highly regarded.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

I mean, I I'll say a little cerebral, but it doesn't feel like it's overwhelmingly batting in the head, right? Yes.

SPEAKER_06 35:29

And I think that's but it's also good action. So if anybody that's scared, oh we're gonna read stuff and listen.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

But you know what I mean. I mean, I think he's complimenting his audience, saying, You're not dumb. I'm I'm putting this stuff in here.

SPEAKER_06 35:41

Honestly, I don't think he cares about the audience, and that's good. He shouldn't. He should just say, This is my vision, I'm doing it, boom, whoever likes it, like that's fair.

SPEAKER_02 35:48

I mean, to the extent, I mean, I think he does somewhat, but yeah, I think you're right.

SPEAKER_06 35:52

I think he has people that do that for him that will like get in his ear and say, Hey, you know, studio execs want to do this, blah, blah, blah, and try to, you know, that probably have his respect. But I get the impression from him, right? He's like, I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

And that's what I was gonna say. I don't think he cares. I think even maybe very, very beginning, but I think after Batman begins him with this, he was like, Yeah, either you let me make this movie or get out of my way.

SPEAKER_06 36:16

Yeah, it's like I said about the the casting, you know, Ashton Kutchard. No, I'm out. Because I, you know, that's the negotiation. You have to be able to walk away from negotiation or they don't respect you. And he's like, I'm I can go do something else. I'm fine.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

I mean, I already made you some money.

SPEAKER_06 36:30

But you didn't kiss ass like Kevin Smith would have done. Sorry, Kevin Smith.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

You're not wrong.

SPEAKER_06 36:35

So yeah, you know, so other directors they say the the studio says, Well, we'll give you 150 million, 180, whatever it is, but you have to have Ashton Kutcher. They'd be okay, okay, I'll make it work. He's like, No, I'm good.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

You imagine if and this is we'll play devil's advocate real quick and then we'll we'll get out of here. But out of this particular episode, but you know how bad that movie would have been. I don't care how good Ashton Kutcher thinks in his head. No, he's I mean, he almost there's just no way.

SPEAKER_06 37:01

I haven't seen any evidence that he can do dramatic stuff. I know he's tried.

unknown 37:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:06

He's got that horror movie or something like that, and a couple other ones. Uh he did the Apple bio, the Steve Jobs, and he did that horror movie um Butterfly Effect, I think is what it's called.

SPEAKER_02 37:15

It's okay.

SPEAKER_06 37:16

No, it's yeah, I mean that's what I mean. It's like I haven't seen anything that says, oh, that guy's yeah, he's got range. Right. Yeah. No, it's not.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

It's almost like, I'm hey, sorry, Miles, but Miles Teller who thinks he's better than he is, right?

SPEAKER_06 37:27

And that's what I feel like. He'll tell you he's good. Right. But anyway, yeah, that's oh, the last thing real quick before we wrap up. Um, this film ushered in the Dark Knight rule for the Academy Awards, due to it not being nominated for best picture, which is a big controversy because that's when they added the best picture, right?

SPEAKER_02 37:48

Like we said, I mean, we already spoke on it. If you can't make it in that, then it so be it. I mean, I'd it's a nice rule, but there's too many anyway.

SPEAKER_06 37:58

I'm not gonna go they the principle of what they were trying to fix accomplish, right? Right. But they could have done it a different way, but whatever.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

And we agree.

SPEAKER_06 38:06

So instead of like making the instead of letting it be ten movies, just pick the right movies and watch them for change. Thank you. Let's do that. Let's try that for change.

SPEAKER_02 38:17

But yeah, that's like I said, huge, huge thumbs up.

SPEAKER_06 38:21

This movie's amazing. The right from the beginning, it's awesome. Oh, yeah. By the way, they also said seven. I don't think he used influenced by seven, but it does have a parallel.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

I could see it hints.

SPEAKER_06 38:32

Yeah, the whole thing about getting yourself arrested on purpose and you know, killing the the police person's wife or girlfriend, whatever. Anyway, that's all I got.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

But yeah, that's that's all I have. And yes, we're telling you definitely. If you haven't seen it, you're in for a treat. Yes. It's but don't watch the one after that. It was I liked it.

SPEAKER_06 38:55

It's a height.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

Better to hide. But anyway, yeah. That's all we got. Two thumbs up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 39:01

Watch the dark night.

Captain America- The Winter Soldier

SPEAKER_06 39:02

Definitely. Hey, sorry to interrupt, but if you're enjoying reviews, please take a second to like, rate, and subscribe to our podcast. We'd really appreciate it. And now back to the reviews. And what's yours?

SPEAKER_02 39:22

So this week, which funny, because I picked Captain America the Winter Soldier. I was toggling between a few other ones, but this one I just thought I really enjoyed it. It'd been a while like you since I'd seen it.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

Most of the intelligence community doesn't believe he exists. The ones that do call him the winter soldier. He's a ghost. You'll never find him.

SPEAKER_04 40:05

To build a better world sometimes means turning the old one down because it makes enemies.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

When do we start?

SPEAKER_04 40:52

We just did.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

It's funny how it parallels the whole uh because this was 2014, I think.

SPEAKER_06 41:02

Okay. Let me make sure. Yes. Still got it. 2014?

SPEAKER_02 41:06

Um, yes, and again, the whole surveillance, right? Being watched.

SPEAKER_06 41:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

Oh yeah. Um, how the guise of uh Captain America's that almost cat uh Superman, right? He's the oh gosh.

SPEAKER_06 41:20

Yeah, golly gee, Willow.

SPEAKER_02 41:22

This kind of movie opened him up, right? Because even when Scar uh Black Widow tells him then there's a thing where they have to go undercover and she's giving he's giving her a kiss and he goes, What, that bad? You haven't kissed that many girls. And there's things that she's putting philosophically in his head, right? It's not just about morals, like, hey, there's other things You might be in the wrong job, is something she says.

SPEAKER_06 41:42

I think she says that at some point.

SPEAKER_02 41:44

Right. It's not everything is just black and white. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 41:47

You want to just go in and think, oh, it's morals, and there's there's another line, I think it's Fury, Samuel Jackson, says something about uh Cap comes at him after that first mission or whatever, and he's like, Yeah, Gami didn't tell me, but she was doing getting that little uh hard drive thing or whatever. Right. And he goes up, well, there's some things that she'll do that she's comfortable with and that you're not. That's why I didn't tell you. Right. And that's like, oh, that's slap in the face, but that's that's that's true. That's hardcore reality. Right. She's cool with doing whatever for the money, and that's it.

SPEAKER_02 42:15

She's there for the mission, right?

SPEAKER_06 42:17

She believes in the I do what I'm I'm a soldier, I do Nick Fury's put me on.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

I I'm gonna go in there.

SPEAKER_06 42:23

I don't mind killing people, I don't mind kicking some ass. I don't mind doing any of that shit. The ultimate goals, I need to get this information in my way. Right. And Cap's more like measured, like, you know, well, wait a minute. Would that be the morally?

SPEAKER_02 42:35

Will that be the, you know, it's like she doesn't just like she's like, hey, I don't give a shit. Right. I'll give a really quick synopsis. Captain America, the winter soldier, is a 2014 American superhero film based on the Marvel Comics character Captain America. Two years after the Battle of New York, Steve Rogers works in Washington, D.C. This is after the Avengers. So he's working in Washington D D for the espionage agency SHIELD. While adjusting to contemporary society, he is sent with Agent Natasha Romanoff, aka Black Widow. Um he's sent with her and SHILE's counter-terrorism team strike, led by agent Brock Rumlow, who later on becomes a villain, but to free hostages aboard a SHIELD vessel from pirate pirates led by George's Batrock. During the mission, Rogers learns that Romanoff has a secret assignment from SHIELD director's Nick Fury to extract data from the ship's computers. Um but they're also developing these things called triskelions or whatever these ships, right? And they're fully they're like a battalion, they can fire, they can they can pinpoint things to like precision. And I think even there's even talk on like if it falls in the wrong hands, it could really do some damage.

SPEAKER_06 43:52

Right. But who constitutes the wrong hands isn't the philosophical philosophical conundrum in this movie. Quote, have the technology, but are they really good?

SPEAKER_02 44:02

Well, it's called Project Insight, right? Three helicopters linked to spy satellites designed to preemptively em eliminate threats.

SPEAKER_06 44:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:10

So, and that's where there's that just uh disagreement between sh uh Nick Fury and Rogers, like that's where he's going.

SPEAKER_06 44:17

Like, well they haven't done anything yet.

SPEAKER_02 44:19

Right. But if it falls in the wrong hands and innocent people, and that's where Steve comes in with his morals and his values. And you know, and I think Nick and Natasha are like, well, if it's a mission, we gotta get it done, you know. So if we eliminate, you know, thousands of bad people and a couple um collateral damage, all right, sucks, but so be it.

SPEAKER_06 44:40

Right. And that's pretty much the way a lot of governments think anyway when it comes to military action like this, where it's like, like I was saying earlier, it's like, you know, you hear about some kind of attack on a military base or something, or oh, oops, we shot a school or whatever, and a bunch of kids died, and it's like it's just like nothing. They're cold to be able to go. Well, yeah, it's like like people like Natasha, they're just like, well, it's just a thing we have to do, and that's just collateral damage. Sorry. They don't even say sorry, really, though.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

Yeah, they kind of, yeah, little whatever.

SPEAKER_06 45:11

Because that's part of that's what happens.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

But as we learn as the story goes along, we find out that shield's been compromised, right?

SPEAKER_06 45:19

Um by Hydra, right?

SPEAKER_02 45:21

Right. Hydra was in the first Avengers, that's where Steve and we as World War II were fighting, not just the Germans, we were fighting Hydra, which was the Red Skeleton. Skell, yeah, red skeleton. Red Skull, sorry. Red skeleton's a good one. I know, I know. Sorry, Red, Red Skull. But yeah, as we learn, Hydra has infiltrated Shield, and now you as we see Nick gets seriously hurt. Um, now you're wondering who's to trust and who you can't.

SPEAKER_06 45:49

So and by the way, just if I can interject, the scene where he gets hurt, I don't know if you want to give that away or not, but amazing action scene. Uh the one thing I like about this movie, first of all, Captain America to me personally, I was had him in that file with Superman. Like it's just so boring and so like super moral, and like because I see things like this where it's like he he comes to realize it toward the end of the movie, by the end of the movie, right, that all that super moral stuff, that even that's there's something wrong with that. You gotta kind of most people are kind of in the middle.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

Delineate between and I'm sorry, sometimes Natasha and Nick are right.

SPEAKER_06 46:23

It's like if if I say, Dave, have you ever told a lie? If you say no, I know you're a fucking liar. Right. So it's like, you know, and he's the type of guy saying, No, I've never told a lie, and he might not have. I don't know. Right. It just seems too like too perfect, too goody-goody. Right. And but when I saw this movie, it's like, wow, that's a good action movie. Just leave the plot alone. Just the action in it is like non-stop.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

But I mean, I like the storyline. It does the story is great, of course. Right. I mean, this is uh the Russo brothers came in and they hadn't really done much, but this is what really catapulted them, directors and their production. But they did an amazing job in this movie.

SPEAKER_06 47:01

The story I'm sorry to interrupt you. You're good. How does Winter Soldier play into this?

SPEAKER_02 47:05

Uh because it brings in, we find out, because they they sprinkle it in the movie, right? Um Steve Rogers had his best friend, uh was it Barnes?

SPEAKER_06 47:17

Richard Buchanan Barnes. Buchanan Barnes, right? Bucky. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

And they show little flashbacks of how Bucky fell out and you know, thinking he's dead. But Hydra didn't. They took him, brainwashed him basically. Right. And he gave him like the super serum. They gave him, yeah, they had an alternate version, or they had a version of it because we all thought that was it with Steve. Right. Um come to find out, no, because Bucky's still alive. He's the winter soldier. And then I like how they sprinkle, and this is not really a spoiler. You'll trust me, you'll want to watch this film. Right. Because Natasha knows about him. Like he's been this ghost story for how many years, right?

SPEAKER_06 47:56

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 47:57

Right.

SPEAKER_06 47:58

And she had an encounter with him, too.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

Right. And she said she barely escaped, or she goes, This is my little uh what do you call it? What'd she call it? Her I don't want to say it's it's a wound, but she called it something else, right?

SPEAKER_06 48:10

Reminder souvenir. Yeah, thank you. That's it. Souvenir from something like he shot through her to get somebody else.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

And he killed the guy. I mean, he did it, he fulfilled his mission.

SPEAKER_06 48:20

He's a bad man.

SPEAKER_02 48:21

Oh, yeah. But yeah, there's great action. Um now, like I said, they're on the run trying to figure out who's really in Hydra, who's who can we trust who we can't. Right. Right, and who's really running Hydra even at that level? It has to be someone high up. You know, they have Robert Redford who plays Alexander Pierce.

SPEAKER_06 48:40

Yeah. And they put Redford in because they were modeling this movie after this kind of 70s espionage, right? I think I read something about like they specifically wanted him because they wanted to give that feeling emulate, right? Right.

SPEAKER_02 48:53

Um, I want to say what, Three Days of the Condor. Right. Um, even All the President's Men. Right. Because it has that feel. You're right. There is that little sprinkle of it. Right. That's too, I mean, too shaded of the Russos on that.

SPEAKER_06 49:04

Yeah. You know, it does get a good pull because at that time, I think everybody's in a in a superhero movie at this point. But that's again, it wasn't it was that like, oh, that's kind of like that's you know, that's that thing.

SPEAKER_02 49:16

And I think going back to our previous uh episode here, or the one before uh Dark Knight showed how you don't have to keep it just in the comic book world. You can sprinkle in, you know, right what happens in the world.

SPEAKER_06 49:30

Yeah. And then because like I said, the scene with Fury, I mean, he doesn't have superpowers as far as I know. Right. Uh, but just that whole action scene about with the cops, I'm putting that in quotation marks.

SPEAKER_02 49:42

Air quotes, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 49:43

Uh the fake SWAT team or whatever. That's just an amazing piece of action. And you know, the idea of you're always off balance, like you don't know who to trust, that's straight from that set those 70s espionage movies, you know? The spy thing and the James Bond and all that stuff. So I I loved it for that reason.

SPEAKER_02 50:01

Well, I even love that sequence where SD's He's going in the elevator, right? He just visited, I think, Pierce, and he's going down, and all of a sudden all these guys come in and he's starting to notice things. He's like, you know, and all of a sudden rocking them come on. He knows right then he goes, he mentioned, before we get started, does everybody want to get off? And that whole sequence is badass. Yeah. You know, I had I enjoyed that, but it goes to what you said, the action. It all fits in there.

SPEAKER_06 50:27

Yes, it is a it's a heady story. You kind of have to pay attention, you can't just like turn your brain off. But then there's this there's non-stop action. I mean, there's an action scene like every five to ten minutes-ish, I would say. And a good one, too. Not like, you know, this is like a lot of I appreciate that a lot of it's in daylight and you can see it. You're not it's not like these quick cuts they do with the Transformers and stuff where you're like, someone's getting their ass kicked, but I have no idea who, I guess. I'll find out, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 50:54

To piggyback off that, I'll give an example like Revenge of the Sith when uh Kenobi and um Anakin are fighting, right? There's that one sequence you're like, it's in the dark, and you're like, you can see things, but you're like, who?

SPEAKER_06 51:05

Yeah. That's my point. You just see sabers moving around. It's like, what's who? What's happening? I guess I'll wait till it's done, then I'll see it on the ground, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Right, but that's what we're saying, that it's in the daylight, so you actually see a lot of it. And then again, to practical effects, it's not just CGI.

SPEAKER_06 51:19

Yeah. You know, if one understand the uh was it what's his name? Sebastian Stan. Yes, like the whole hand-to-hand fighting. It does look a little bit like choreography. It doesn't look like a real fight, but still, I mean, just it's a very impressive the way they have it. Throwing the knife up in the air and those crazy shit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:39

It's and to you, I mean, I mean I'm not the biggest uh Anthony Mackey fan. I mean, he did a good job.

SPEAKER_06 51:45

Oh, I have a tear, a tear. He he knows me too well. I think I wasn't gonna say anything either. I was like, I I went off on my rant on Wahlberg. This is the black Wahlberg, but I'm not gonna say anything.

SPEAKER_02 51:56

Look, I think he luckily, with the caliber of everybody around him, he held his own. He didn't take it down a notch, is what I'm gonna say.

SPEAKER_06 52:04

He didn't uh he oh you mean he didn't try lower the yeah, yeah, yeah. Because he's not a lead necessarily.

SPEAKER_02 52:10

No, he wasn't. He was uh uh what do you call it? A collaborator.

SPEAKER_06 52:15

Yeah, he's kind of a side character. I mean, he's got a pretty healthy role.

SPEAKER_02 52:19

Yeah, but he did, I mean, he did I I think he did all right playing Sam Wilson. He was it was fun.

SPEAKER_06 52:23

Yeah, I wanted to see him get beat up.

SPEAKER_02 52:25

So he got beat up by Brock a couple times.

SPEAKER_06 52:28

Yeah, when Bucky kicked his rip ripped his wing off. I was like, that's awesome. Threw him off the building. I was like, sweet.

SPEAKER_02 52:35

And that kind of goes to what you're saying, I'm not gonna ruin the ending, but there's a part at the end where Steve realizes, Captain America, because he's fighting Bucky, that that black and white goes out the window, you know, because there's a part, you know, and he realizes I mean, that there are things that you can't just play it straight. You know, you gotta bend the rules a little bit.

SPEAKER_06 52:58

There's gray in life. Everything's not black or white, and that's it. I think his mindset was from the 50s or whatever. If you bought into all that stuff, then you know, a lot of that was I was gonna say propaganda. That really is the right word. I didn't want to say our own country, but frankly, you know, like when people went in the army, it was like serve your country and blah blah blah. And unfortunately, when you were done with the wars, they just kind of like now you're and that hits the point on the head because that's what Steve thought, right?

SPEAKER_02 53:26

Because here he was in World War II, you know, and he's fighting for the country, and they come to find out you're definitely the good guys, and now it's like even your own country's because Hyder doesn't infiltrate you unless someone's on the take.

SPEAKER_06 53:36

That's just that's just a fact, right? So someone that some of the good guys, quote unquote.

SPEAKER_02 53:41

You infiltrate from within the enemy within, right?

SPEAKER_06 53:44

Then somehow they just like whenever you hear like a mob movie where it's like, oh yeah, we own you know three or four cops in the precinct or whatever. It's like, yeah, because they took a payoff or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 53:52

Well, they mentioned what Operation Paperclip, which is true, what really happened where they brought German scientists here. That's how NASA and other things got.

SPEAKER_06 53:59

Everybody knows about it, but no one's like, yeah, you know, it's funny you say that.

SPEAKER_02 54:02

I don't think a lot of people do know they don't. I think a lot of people are not as informed as we all think. And it's not a couple of things.

SPEAKER_06 54:07

Why don't you say the moon launch, right? There's not like a the guy that was instrumental in that was like a Nazi. Yeah, but they could downplay that part. But people don't know that.

SPEAKER_02 54:16

That's my point. Operation Paperclip, people don't know what that even was, and now it's a real thing. Yeah. But I'm just saying there's a lot of people who don't know that.

SPEAKER_06 54:25

That's a shame because um when at that during that time period, there are people in this country that were pro-Germany. They don't say that in the history books. There are prominent figures that were pro-Germany, like Ford and Disney. They were like, you know, leave them alone. That's that's would let us stay out of that. And but we don't talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 54:45

But again, that goes to what you said propaganda.

SPEAKER_06 54:47

Right. Right. And I'm not trying to do that. Right now, so we just blocked that out. So it's like that didn't happen.

SPEAKER_02 54:51

And that goes to what we're saying about this, because Steve's realizing this has all been a story, right?

SPEAKER_06 54:56

It hasn't been the complete truth, I should say. That's fair.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

But even Nick Fury realizes how he had fit into it. And now, you know, not to ruin the movie or anything, but even he's like, oh, open his eyes. I don't know who I can trust. Right. I'm supposed to be the guy, I'm supposed to be the number one.

SPEAKER_06 55:12

But there's always someone, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:13

Right. So but no, uh, I like there's just the overall, it's funny, like I said, the parallels between this and Dark Knight.

SPEAKER_06 55:21

And they were done six years apart, but they still are so got that conflicted hero, you know, who wants to do good, but it's like kind of writing that line between what's good and what's not, and not knowing who to trust.

SPEAKER_02 55:33

Right. And I mean, that's kind of true today. Yeah. I'm not trying to get political kids, I'm just showing facts of sometimes it's you don't know, you know. But that's the greatness of these movies. I think going back to what you said philosophically, these are great on that.

SPEAKER_06 55:49

Right. Because you really I mean, you don't have to, but I always think like, okay, where do I stand about that? Because that's like going back to the Dark Knights, like, you know, Batman and the Joker. I started thinking about it. It's like, is the Joker really wrong? Because there's an element of storytelling, which is that with a good story, the villain is supposed to be the hero of his own story. Right. And so I was thinking about that, and I was like, is he the hero of his own story? Yes, he is. He believes in what he's doing, and he's mad about it because people don't acknowledge it or the society isn't acknowledged. That's why he's acting out and doing this other shit, you know, right? Trying to get people to see, like with the whole boat, the two boats, I forgot to talk about that, the two uh burgers or whatever, the fairies.

SPEAKER_02 56:29

But I think people should watch that for themselves, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 56:32

And see how it plays out, right? That's a great moral experiment, too.

SPEAKER_02 56:36

And um, this is a moral within Steve, he's fighting. You know, he has to, it's an inner turmoil he's going through in himself because he's believed this one thought. Right. And now that this is unfolded, right? That kind of goes away now, and I have to look at it new, I have to look at it through newer eyes. Right. Like I'm awake now for the first time.

SPEAKER_06 56:55

And then this is kind of off the subject a little bit, it's related, but it's like in the first one, the first Avenger, it's portrayed like he's um what's the word? He's perfect, like he's scrawny and he's undersized, but he's like God gumption, as they would say back in those days. Right. And he's all gung-ho for America and wanting to fight for his country, and he's that type of guy that would jump on the grenade to save the whole macro. He's the perfect person. And that's later on. Um this is not a spoiler, I would hope, but he when he wields Mjolnir later on, because he's worthy, because they're well, he was always worthy. That's what I mean. Uh so he is kind of perfect in a way, right? If he can wield Mjolnir, Mjolnir, right. He's just finding out that the world around him isn't as perfect as he thought it was.

SPEAKER_02 57:43

Right. He won't, I mean, goes to that generation.

SPEAKER_06 57:45

He doesn't let it affect him necessarily, is what I should say.

SPEAKER_02 57:48

Well, he realizes I have still at the same fight, but have to fight under different rules.

SPEAKER_06 57:52

Right. Right. Because in the later in the movies that came after this, he was still kind of like a little pushed back, like, you know, yeah, I'm fighting for this side, but right. Uh what was the was the one um that was another Captain America, wasn't it? The um Civil War? Civil War, right? Because he was kind of like um Tony wanted them to register, and he's kind of like, nah, we don't I don't trust the government because of what happened. What happened before, right?

SPEAKER_02 58:15

Kind of and totally I'm with you there, Captain.

SPEAKER_06 58:17

I'm gonna fight, you know, for the good, but I'm not, you know, right, letting these guys tell me what to do.

SPEAKER_02 58:22

And that kind of goes with our what we're saying about propaganda, because like I I believe in people, but government, nah. I'm I'm with you, Steve. I get it. Right, right. No, these are great movies. That it's not just the action, like you said, it's heady, you have to pay attention, you can't just, you know, it but it's not so far ahead of you that you go, what? You'll get it. Yeah, just have to watch it. And I think the fight scenes between, like you said, the winter soldier and cap and even Natasha. So I mean, yeah, choreographed, it it still flows. I like the flow of it, the look of it.

SPEAKER_06 58:52

Yeah. They spend some time on the the action scenes, and you can tell because they want to show them off. It's not like it's obscured, it's not there's no CGI, it'll just we'll get to that later some other podcast. But some of their other later movies went to CGI for the action scenes and to their detriment. Uh, this movie had a lot of practical stuff, so oh yeah, definitely. Very nice touch.

SPEAKER_02 59:15

I liked how they because we mean we got touches of Black Widow, Scarlet Johansson's character. This kind of enhanced that a lot. And like I I enjoyed that because it showed, you know, you could have these characters secondary, but she actually kind of co-starred really with uh because I mean Samuel Jackson's in it, you know, and he's really good in what he does, and he kind of steps out for a minute. I won't ruin it, but but it's really Steve and Natasha, and they learn a lot. Overall, I think it's a great film. I think it's very underrated. I mean, I know I've read that it's probably in the annals of these comic book films, one of the best.

SPEAKER_06 59:55

Yeah, definitely. I hear a lot of people talk about that's a just a a movie that even comic book people that don't like comic book movies would like. I hear that a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:03

Oh yeah. I it I like all three of the Captain Americas. I mean, I've enjoyed the first one, even though that one's probably the lowest one that they would rate, but I still enjoyed it. But this is the best one comparatively.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:15

Um, real quick, it was budgeted between 170 and 177. It made 715 million.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:22

Damn. So 700 mil? Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:26

So it made more than it's you know, what, triple its money?

SPEAKER_06 1:00:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:30

Um so I forgot to say on The Dark Knight, I own it. I think I mentioned that, but you watched it on The Dark Knight.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:39

Oh, HBO Max. Okay. I own it too, but I'm not gonna dig that. You know that story by now. Um, because I I remember mine, the DVD, I watched, I wore the shit out of that. And uh it has like all the extra features about the Tumblr and all that kind of stuff. So I thought that was a perfect example of why you want to have physical media.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:59

Oh well, we talk about that all the time.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:02

Yeah, of course, but I'm gonna keep talking about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:04

Oh, I know, me too. And that's why I mean it's so fun for me to pull go to my library and pull these out.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:12

But yeah, you're right. Real quick, it's on HBO Max, of course, Amazon. So um The Dark Knight.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:20

Oh, yeah, yeah. I saw the HBO Max. What was uh Winter Soldier? Would you see that? Well, I mean, again, you got the DVD, yeah. I think I saw it on uh I want to say Amazon maybe. I was surprised because I thought it was gonna be Disney Plus only.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:32

It's Disney Plus, Hulu, Amazon, yeah. You're right.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:35

I thought it was only Disney. I thought that was the point of like whatever. I I'm not you're not I'm not a financial guy, I'm not as smart as they are, but I just think the point of having your own thing, like you don't let other people.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:47

One day in a future podcast we'll go off and our our own disagreement.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:52

But I was happy. I mean, I was because I didn't I was like, I'm not gonna I'm not getting Disney Plus to watch this movie. I was almost gonna call you and be like, you know what? Because I probably have this on DVD as well. Probably. And I was like, you know, I'm either gonna call Dave and see if we do a different movie, or I'll I'll have to dig into my pull all my stuff out and say, okay, God, here. I'll get my DVD out.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:13

Oh, but these were both, I mean definitely treats.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:17

Um I can't even really I can't even really say anything negative about this movie. I mean, the pacing's great, the acting's pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:32

Even your boy Papa Doc, you can't.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:34

I mean, even him is like he's in it, but he's not you know, too in it. So he he he's not like the co-star, so it's like I could deal with that.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:44

He's not one of the main stars.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:45

But and then the later one now he has his own show. I didn't watch that at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:48

Oh the Captain America uh the Yeah, Captain America and the Winter Soldier.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:53

Captain America and Bucky or whatever it was.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:54

The Winter Soldier was called the series. It was okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:56

Uh then he had a whole series, right? It was alright. And then he had a movie.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:01

The Captain America that is something I can't remember with Harrison for I didn't watch any of that shit.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:06

It was okay. Um sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:10

I can't disagree with you. I mean, it was I guess I liked it a little bit more, but not it wasn't one of my favorites of the Marvel.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:17

I just saw like one little clip, and it was I think they're showing the clip to be derogatory to something like he's in his Captain America gear, whatever, he's got like the Captain America red, white, and blue shit on and wings. It just looks so fucking stupid, but then that by itself, but then he's like giving these senators a speech about doing better or something like that. Right. Race and stuff. I'm like, no, no, I don't even want to watch this clip, it's fucking stupid. But that's I don't know, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:45

And I don't know. I guess what I'm getting at with this particular sequence of Marvel, these phases were great. And it shows what they had and what I mean. I don't know, again, we're not privy to the writer's room or what Feige. But just think though, as regular audience members, I mean, you should listen. There's some great ones in these last phases, and there's some ones that are like, ooh, you know. Yeah. And but again, I'm digressing. My point is that that was great. Those phases, it was exciting. And when we got the culmination of it, it was amazing. Right. We'll see what they can kind of dredge up here with uh Spider-Man and Doomsday. Um I am excited, you know, hoping, but I do think there is a point where if you can't create something new or different, you might want to hang up your hat here because it's gonna be a minute.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:37

I'm hearing that it's basically this upcoming whatever, Doomsday or whatever in Secret War is gonna be like a the end of all this, and then we're gonna start soft reboot, is what I read. Right. So that's I'm looking forward to that. And it that's kind of unfortunate to say, but it is what it is. Right. Um yeah, that's all I have, I think, for this one.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:56

Yeah, this this was a good show. I mean, I think these were two phenomenal films.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:00

Definitely watch them. Yeah, you're in for treats. I agree. Um, that's it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:05

All right, kids, till next time. That's a wrap for today's movie reviews. Thanks for listening. Remember, if you like what you've heard, make sure you like, subscribe, and rate our show. And then let's go get some ice cream.