Red Light Therapy for the Brain | Ep. 14 with Robert Weber

Robert Weber has worked with medical laser technology for more than 20 years. In this first solo episode of the Light Medicine Podcast, he walks through the transcranial photobiomodulation device his team spent two years building, the WeberBrain helmet, and what red and near-infrared light can and cannot do once it reaches brain tissue.

This is a working overview, not a sales pitch. Robert covers the mechanism, the engineering decisions behind the device, the early observations coming back from clinics and conferences, the dose finding that caught his team off guard, and the protocols his research partner Martin Junggebauer wrote for the most common brain conditions.

In this episode:

What the helmet does: Red and near-infrared light, delivered by focused lasers through the skull to reach brain tissue and act on the mitochondria, cerebral blood flow, and inflammation. For the deeper mechanism, Robert points to Dr. Hamblin's department at Harvard and his earlier episode with Martin Junggebauer.

Laser versus LED: Why coherent, focused laser light reaches deeper than the spread light of an LED, the lens system that focuses each beam, and the light fingers that pass through hair to sit directly on the skull.

From 12 lasers to 700: The path from early multi-channel laser devices used for stroke recovery, through a first-generation helmet with 320 infrared LEDs, to the current clinical device carrying almost 700 real laser diodes at a total output near 14 watts.

Three wavelengths, three depths: Why the device runs 680nm in the red range plus 808nm and 1064nm in the infrared, and how different wavelengths reach different layers of tissue.

Clinical model versus home model: The roughly 700-laser pro device for clinics and the 228-diode home model, and why progressive conditions like dementia and Parkinson's call for an ongoing approach rather than a single course.

What clinics are reporting so far: Clarity and alertness after one or two sessions, a calmer state at 10 hertz, and the observations Robert is honest about not yet explaining, including reports of sharper eyesight and clearer sinuses. Observations, not conclusions.

The dose finding: Dr. Leonard Kaplan's testing with ViewMind eye-tracking showed not every patient improved. Too much power for too long looked like overstimulation. The gains in processing speed and working memory showed up when the dose was pulled back to the right window. More was not better.

One photodynamic case: A patient who presented with 40 brain lesions from metastatic disease. Robert walks through the before and after imaging following a five-day protocol that paired a photosensitizer with the helmet, and stays clear about what a single case can and cannot establish.

The protocol book: The starting guidelines Martin Junggebauer built, beginning simple at 20 minutes and continuous wave, with separate recommendations for Parkinson's, traumatic brain injury, depression, anxiety, and autism.

Performance, prevention, and sleep: Where the helmet fits for focus, reaction time, mental recovery, and sleep, the first athlete trials now starting, and why Robert uses the home model on himself every day.

About Robert Weber: Robert Weber is the founder and managing director of Weber Medical Systems and head of research at ISLA, the International Society for Medical Laser Applications. He has worked in medical laser therapy for more than 20 years and hosts the Light Medicine Podcast. His work centers on photobiomodulation and its clinical applications across pain, recovery, inflammation, and brain health.

Connect with Weber Medical: Website: webermedical.com LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/webermedical WeberBrain early access: form.typeform.com/to/swd2jebc

Disclaimer: This podcast is for educational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. The clinical observations and individual cases described are not proof of efficacy. Consult a qualified healthcare professional before beginning any new treatment.

#RedLightTherapy #Photobiomodulation #BrainHealth #TranscranialPhotobiomodulation #NearInfrared #WeberBrain #LightMedicine #CognitiveHealth #Neurodegeneration #Dementia #Parkinsons #LaserTherapy #PhotodynamicTherapy #WeberMedical

Transcript

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When you look at this testimonial, she had 40 lesions in the brain from different um brain metastasis. And we did our typical photodynamic approach. So she got the um endocyanine green um as a photosensitizer. And um afterwards we did the helmet for the brain treatment. And just look at that, after five-day treatment, um, she got a new MRI, and the metastasis went down from 40 lesions to just two. So today I will do like my first solo episode because yeah, you know, we have this new transcranial laser photobiomodulation technology available now. And um, yeah, everything related to brain health. We have so much research, but we also have such a big demand that people are asking us for um yeah, information on the technology, on the results we are seeing. So I feel like I would like to share what we already um observed with the new technology, also take you a little bit through the development process. Um, as some of you might remember, I already did an episode with um Eric, um, who was basically the lead designer, product designer of this new technology. Um, so there we talked a lot about um yeah, how the technology is superior, um, what it what what are the unique features um within the device. But yeah, now we have it already on the market for a couple of months, and yeah, I would like to explain a little bit the differences, um, the clinical outcomes we see so far, and um yeah, give you an update on the topic of photobiomodulation and brain health. Um so um I also won't go too much into detail um when it comes to the um mechanisms of transcranial low-level laser therapy. I already did this episode with Martin about that. So if you want to learn more again about the mechanism, what is really happening in the brain, um feel free to go to the podcast episode with Martin Jungebauer, because um there we talked a lot about the mechanisms. So, just to give you a little summary again, um, here we talk about red and infrared light, which is basically targeting the brain from outside by a special helmet device technology using highly focused lasers. This way we make sure the light can really penetrate through the skull bone and um yeah, reach the brain tissue. And we know that the cells in our brain um can absorb certain wavelengths of light to stimulate mitochondria, promote healing, bring down inflammation, improve microcirculation. So a lot of very positive cellular reactions are taking place, and um, this in the end can help um in treating a lot of neurodegenerative conditions, mental disorders, um, and other things we will talk about today. So, yeah, there's a lot of research going on in this field. Um, actually, also the transcranial light application field is probably the one where we have most research on when we talk about photobiomodulation. There are several very good research um institutions, like um Harvard University, Department of Mr. Uh Dr. Hamblin. Um, they published hundreds of studies really showing the evidence, um, what is happening um within the cell and how light might increase cellular function and brain health in general. So we are always happy to share um those publications if you want to um dig deeper into the main mechanisms of this um therapy. But our job now is um to really look into the clinical application. So we are uh we developed a new device, a new technology for really improving or um yeah, enhancing the light effects to directly um target into the brain. And yeah, we bring it to the clinical level. We already um brought the device into several clinics and research institutions, and um, yeah, we are collecting the data now, we're looking for more research partners because we just feel that this field has such a huge potential, especially when we think about the rising numbers of neurodegenerative conditions like dementia or Parkinson's, which are very difficult to treat. And we have millions of people worldwide suffering from that with a big lack of therapies. Um, we feel like this might be a very, very promising new approach. And therefore, yeah, I would like to give you a little bit of an overview today and also try to, yeah, basically motivate all of you to use it maybe for yourself or in your clinic, for your patients. Um, believe me, there's tremendous potential for that, not only for neurodegenerative conditions, also for acute things like stroke or TBI, but also for mood disorders, for mental issues, for general cognitive performance. Um, this might be a very promising tool. Yeah, this is what I already mentioned. We have a lot of um benefits on the cellular level, like um, yeah, mitochondrial activation, ATP production increase, um, increased cerebral blood flow, we have protective effects, um, and we of course also enhance oxygen um availability in the tissue. So when we look a little bit um at the history of transcranial photobiomodulation, um we already started with this basically 20 years ago, where you can see here on the picture with our first multi-channel laser devices, um, we tried to target specific points or areas of damage, especially for stroke recovery in the beginning. But this was a good and effective approach in several conditions. But as you can see here, it's a kind of limited technology because you can only target um some smaller areas of specific um points. And what we know now from research from the last years that this full brain coverage uh with high amounts or high energy levels of light is um superior compared to um only single approaches. So here are a couple of more pictures with the infrared um penetration. Then there are, of course, other devices already on the market, also good devices. V Light is one of the companies they are working in this field already for many years. Um, so they are bringing also light into the brain by this tissue and published a lot. But I we always felt we can um have better technology because also here you see you're only targeting some specific areas of the brain, and you're also limited in this case um to LED technology. Same here in this device, um, also a relatively simple approach, and also in our first generation helmet, um, where we use this full brain coverage approach. We used uh LED device with 320 um infrared LEDs, but we always have to keep in mind LEDs is more um, yeah, LED light is spreading in the tissue, it's not really focused, and therefore the penetration is not that good compared to laser light, which is coherent light. And when we really focus it with a good land system, we can penetrate much deeper. And our target was has always been to improve technology. Nowadays, laser technology is becoming more affordable, diet pricing went down significantly. So, yeah, it's possible now to create better and more effective technology with real lasers with multiple wavelengths to just achieve better penetration and better clinical effects in the end. So here are the limitations again, which are already mentioned. Um, most devices um yeah were using LEDs and not lasers uh with limited penetration. Most of them are usually um limited to one single wavelength, uh typically in the infrared range. And also one of the issues with the older helmets was that it was not um possible to adjust it to different head circumferences. And this is, of course, also important that the lasers are really sitting close to the skull everywhere. And then, of course, hair is a big issue. If you have very thick and dark hair, and um the lasers are on top of hair of the hair, um, they cannot really penetrate through the hair, and the this blockage is of course also decreasing the effectiveness a lot. So, our solutions when we started to create this from a mechanical point of view. First of all, we wanted to have an adjustable system, and we created those so-called light fingers, which are really going um yeah, through the hair, um, sitting directly on the skull, and bringing the light directly through the skull bone and overcoming this hair blockage issue. So, here you see like the first drawings we had when we created the device. We also decided to use a special lens system on the diets to focus the beam and have this very focused um penetration. Uh, what I already mentioned is a crucial point when we talk about penetration. Then we created uh wanted to create a system where we really target um all of the different areas of the brain, which is also very important. And here you see a couple of more pictures of the very first test. So on skull models, uh, we checked the size, uh, we made first drawings, and then step by step we developed um yeah, a new adjustable head device where where we could include multiple lasers. Here you see first electronic um developments, um, more mechanical developments, prototype development, what you see here, also myself wearing like the first prototype of this device. And then, yeah, it has been a long journey for about two years until we get the or got the first working prototype. Um, but now basically all of the things we were aiming for were or could um yeah, have been included in this new development. So we uh were able to make a device or technology where we have full brain coverage with a lot of real laser diets. We have two models, uh, or we decided to create two models, a clinical pro version, which has almost 700 lasers. So just think about it. In the beginning, we were working with a device with 12 lasers and we already had good success. Then we had a 300 LED um device, but now we have 700 diets, real lasers, um, giving a total output of almost um 14 14 watt. So this is really high power, really focused, and therefore we can just bring significantly higher amounts of energy directly into the tissue. But we also decided to create a home use model because we believe um that especially when we talk about neurodegenerative conditions like dementia or Parkinson's progressive diseases, we really need an ongoing approach. So the idea is a patient might get the first um package of treatment of treatments within um the clinical setting with a doctor um to really give this boost into the brain. But then um, yeah, if the patient is able to afford that, get a device for home use. It could basically use it for the whole family because it's also great for prevention, for stress release, focusing, and things like that. But especially when we talk about dementia and Parkinson's, we really need an ongoing approach to slow down progression of the disease. And therefore, we feel that the home device is very important for such conditions. Yeah, and then besides of um the laser technology, it's also important to mention that we included three different wavelengths, uh, one in the red range with 680 nanometers, where we have some good research available, and two different wavelengths in the infrared range, the typical one with 808 and one with 1064 nanometers. And this way we actually achieve different depths of penetration, so we reach different layers of the tissue and get just um yeah, multiple effects on a cellular level on different um yeah um areas within the brain. And we also feel that this will be a very big or will make a very big difference in the end. I already talked about the land system and about the uh adjustability of um the circumference. So here are some more pictures of the inside of the helmet, um, and also again how the um yeah light modules are um distributed within the helmet. Um, the main difference you see here between the home and the pro model. In the home, uh we have the single diets with 228 diets, and in the um pro model, those are basically three in one diet, and therefore, um yeah, you have three times more diets, and the full helmet is in the end three times more powerful um for the clinical setting. But anyway, also the home use model with 228 real laser diets is already much more energy um compared to all the other devices we have available on the market so far. Yeah, here you see another nice picture with a triple wavelength here with a focused land system, um, how a lay how the laser beam um is really created, and you see that it's really a focused beam compared to an LED where you have wide um spreading of the light. Here you see a picture of the land system and of the final um new so-called Weber brain device. Um, right now it's operated by a remote control where you can adjust intensity, frequency, and duration. But in the future, we will also have a special app where you can basically adjust the same settings. But it will give you, especially as a practitioner, the option to create also more advanced protocols by targeting specific areas of the brain with different settings. You can um choose single wavelengths, you can adjust the frequencies and the powers, or just target individual single areas. So, yeah, this is nice to play with to create your own protocols um for yeah for the future for more advanced um protocols. So, um, some more pictures of the technology. Here you see um how those light fingers look like. You see the final helmet design again from the inside. Um, also the reason why we decided for such an open design, it looks a little bit futuristic, but actually it's important because, as you can imagine, when you use so many laser diets within a device, you create also some kind of heat, and um, the heat just has to move out of the helmet, otherwise, it would get too hot if it would be a closed system, and then people would start to sweat or feel uncomfortable, and therefore the open design is a very good solution. And it actually looks nice, yeah, kind of futuristic, but especially when you look here on the right side, um, patients or um, yeah, everybody can see what is happening, you can see the light, and um, this is always yeah, very nice for people to see how it's really working and how the light is penetrating into the skull. Now, here some more pictures. And um, also important to mention, especially for the clinical devices, that we have special protective caps um to keep it clean. Um, they can be removed to so they can be cleaned or they can be replaced for different patients. So there are different options to really um keep it clean and safe, which is also um an important feature. Yeah, then of course, um in general we have great synergies when we talk about brain health. Um, you can combine it with infusion with other therapies. Um, in a clinical setting, you might combine it with stem cells or exosomes, for example, for regenerative um purposes. But we also have very good and strong um liposomal formulation of nutraceuticals like alpha GPC, which is very good for cognitive function or neurodegenerative conditions. We also have a very good liposomal um Q10, which is very effective in combination with the helmet. Um, also green tea extract is a nice um nutraceutical. So, yeah, we work with this biosomal company with Dr. Wojik from Germany. They create amazing liposomal formulation. And for us, it's always about finding the best synergies. The helmet alone is already very effective, but you can always get some extra um benefit when combining it with certain therapies. Mesolin blue is another option which is very popular right now. And now that we also have red light included, you have a direct interaction also between the methyline blue and the um light technology. Yeah, I already mentioned the beginning why this topic is so important for us. We have um yeah, close to 100 million patients suffering from dementia. We have around 10 million people suffering from Parkinson's. Many people um experience something like a stroke or TBI in the lifetime. We have, according um to the uh World Health Organization, almost 1 billion people suffering from mental issues, numbers rising significantly. Just think about depression, anxiety, burnout, um, trauma. We see great um results um with um, yeah, for example, veterans coming back from the war. I'm also planning um a podcast um episode with our veteran group from Florida. They use the technology already for quite a while with very good success for um on all their patients with post-traumatic stress disorders. So um, yeah, I think we can do a lot of good things for everybody who has some sort of brain issue. And um, as we know, we are getting older. Cognitive decline in the end will hit all of us. If you're 60 or 70 or getting older, your brain will age, you will suffer from some sort of cognitive decline. It does not need to be dementia, uh dementia, but um cognitive function will go down. And with this, we might have a very good anti-aging or longevity tool available, which might be able to really slow down brain aging. And therefore, it's really good also for prevention, or maybe even more important, if you um feel like you want to do something good for your brain. This might be a very nice non-invasive tool you can use basically also at home with a home use model. I'm using it every day for myself. You feel from a preventive point of view, also that you can focus better, you have positive effects on memory. And um, so this is not only for treatment, but also very good for prevention. Yeah, in general, that's what I already mentioned for recovery, for mental health, um, also for stress release, also very important. So if you have a long working day and you use the technology, you can really feel that your brain is calming down um significantly, and you feel it now after one treatment right away. So, from a subjective point of view, that's what everybody is telling us. It's just much more powerful compared to the older helmet versions we had available before. Yeah, I also talked about the ongoing treatment with the home use setting and uh how crucial that is in neurodegenerative conditions. And um I also want to emphasize that for us, clinical work research is very important. We are we are a very science-driven um yeah, society with the International Society for Medical Laser Application, also our whole business, everything is science-driven. Um for us, it's very important um to publish data, to collect data at our conferences. So if anybody out there is interested to join us within our research network, please uh reach out to us. This is actually very important for us. Yeah, then a couple of words on the first clinical observations, which are related to this new device. So, what I already mentioned, basically everybody is feeling a significant clarity and alertness right after one or two treatments. Many people, which is also interesting, report an improved eyesight right away. So we had this at a couple of our conferences when we did demos on different patients. They were sitting at our booths, then wearing the helmet, and suddenly um they told me, oh now um at the um other area of the room, um of the room, I see the banners, and now I can read. I can read the letters. I was not able to read that before. So this is very interesting. There seems to be a strong stimulation also on the um eye nerves. So we have to look into this. This is an example where we just need more research to see if there's a long-lasting effect or just for a couple of hours and how exactly that works. But we get this feedback from many people. And um, also what I already mentioned when you use specific frequencies like 10 hertz, um, you can also really calm down your state of mind with that and get into a really relaxed mode and get rid of all the stress after a long working day. Then um, yeah, doctors are already um reporting cognitive improvement. Of their patients. We had actually also two people at our last conference in the US who were traveling to our conference and they really had issues with very blocked sinuses. And they were for a couple of weeks already one of those guys. And then they used the helmet just one time and everything cleared up. So this was very impressive, and it gave us a very good proof how deep the light is really able to penetrate here with this new laser technology. Because just after 20 minutes, the light is here on the skull, but all the sinuses became totally free and they could breathe again. So very interesting observations. Yeah, others already report improvements in Parkinson patients. And also very often we get the feedback that speech is improving. We also observed this already with a couple of people when we were talking also with people in the US, and we had like difficult in the beginning to understand them because of different um accents, uh, accents or special slang they were talking. And then after 20 minutes of the helmet, the whole speech became very clear, very easy for us to follow and understand, and also they were talking in a yeah, much more structured way. So you see or feel cognitive effect right away. And this is actually giving us a lot of um hope and promise that this might be a big game changer when it comes to cognitive health. Yeah, then Dr. Kaplan in the US presented first data on cognitive health by the um by measuring it with a so-called Bewind um technology. So this is like a virtual reality technology where you do little um tests with eye movements, you have to follow certain things or do little memory tests, and then um it can be measured before and after um the intervention with the helmet. And he presented a first little study with interesting results because not everybody um improved. This is there, we have to be honest, but um his conclusion was really like um when he gave too much power for maybe for 30 minutes with full power, it was just too much. It was like a little bit of overstimulation. We know this from laser therapy. If you give too much energy, you might have um yeah, inhibitory effects. And therefore, in the patients when he reduced the power or really found the sweet spot with the right amount of energy calculation, there he had significant improvement in cognitive function, in processing speed, and working memory. So this um was also a very interesting finding, and we are obviously doing more research into this direction right now, to all especially to optimize protocols, of course. Then, when we talk about photodynamic therapy for cancer, also to give you one example, we just had a patient from the US and she came with multiple lesions in the brain. I think uh when you look at this testimonial, she had 40 lesions in the brain from different um brain metastasis. And we did our typical photodynamic approach. So she got the um endocyanine green um as a photosensitizer, and um, afterwards we did the helmet for the brain treatment. And just look at that, after five-day treatment, um, she got a new MRI, and the metastasis went down from 40 lesions to just two. So incredible. And this has always been a very big limitation when we talk about brain cancers, brain metastasis, um, to really bring enough light energy into the brain to stimulate or um the yeah, to stimulate the photosensitizer. And now this might also be a game changer when we talk about brain cancers. Um this is just the case, but again, this gives us very good hope that we might have a new tool here to optimize our photodynamic protocols as well. Yeah, what is important to mention is also that we already created a protocol book. So for everybody who wants to um try it in a clinical setting, we will always provide support when it comes to protocols. Uh, we give guidelines for the most common um brain conditions. Um, of course, you can also always reach out to us um and um yeah, with special cases or special questions, but we give you this guideline. Um, this has been created by Martin mainly, um, who's like the expert on transcranial photobiomodulation. Um, you know this guy here. I already did one of the post uh podcast episodes with him. And um, so just to show you a couple of the protocols, how they look like, uh, we typically give recommendations on how often it should be done, for how long, the power settings, um, the frequency settings. In general, I have to say we prefer to keep it simple in the beginning, do like 20 minutes, 100% power if it's tolerated well, and start with continuous wave, zero hertz. But of course, you might play with the um frequencies, or we also give some references of studies here where um certain frequencies have shown promising results. So um you can basically choose or also change it after a while and see how the patient um reacts towards different protocol settings. We also give some more um recommendations on synergies, on synergistic treatments, on other light applications, on um nutraceuticals or whatever we feel might help to um yeah increase the effectiveness of the light protocol. So, yeah, here you see more protocol um recommendations. We did the same thing for Parkinson's, for traumatic brain injuries, uh, for cognitive function, um, for mental um disorders, especially depression and anxiety, where we see very good results with um transcranial photobiomodulation. Others uh for autism, we also have very good data available. So, this is something where we also like to do more research in the near future, because children in general react very good towards light. There are more sensitive, of course, the light can penetrate even better. Here we might even here it might be even necessary to reduce the power in the beginning, but all those recommendations are here in the protocols. So if you're working in um childcare with autistic children or other behavioral um issues, uh feel free to reach out to us as we feel like this might also be a very promising technology here. Yeah, so in general, we also um yeah um need to mention that this whole therapy is a topical external therapy without any side effects. It's very convenient to use. The new helmet is a little bit heavier compared to the older models because there's a lot of technology inside. So this is something people sometimes need to get used to a little bit. They feel like a little bit heaviness or that it's um putting some pressures on pressure on the skull, but usually you are getting used to this, and the benefits are totally outweighing um those weight issues, in my opinion. Yeah, and in general, the protocols, the um operation is very easy to perform, it's just 20 to 30 minutes per session, um, and there is no, it's not necessary to overtee the oversee the patient the whole time. So it's a very nice um and simple approach, which gives you a lot of benefit in your clinical work or also for your home care. Yeah, the main um FAQs people are always asking us for contraindications or side effects. Um there are no real side effects. Of course, sometimes people are very sensitive, they feel like it's too much energy in the beginning. What we see in the cognitive studies, so then you might reduce the power a little bit, find the exact dose which feels best for yourself, but in general, it's a very safe therapy. And um, yeah, sometimes simple things like detox effects, like a little bit of headache or whatever, might occur in the beginning, but we never ever experienced any serious side effects so far. And believe me, we work in this field for more than 20 years, so we can assure you that it's a very, very safe therapy. Yeah, and last but not least, I want to mention as well that it is a very promising technology also for athletes or for general cognitive or brain performance enhancement. So, this is also if you're healthy, if you just want to improve your cognitive function, your focus, your memory. Um, this might be also a very interesting tool. Right now, we also um started first trials with different athletes to check how the performance will be um enhanced by that. There are multiple studies giving you evidence, and you know, in many um sports it's very important to stay very focused where we have a very high mental low, just think about tennis or car racing, um, also basketball. You really need to be totally focused, um, have a very clear um yeah performance in your brain, and therefore, this might be very good to give you this extra boost before um yeah, before the event. So, this is um basically a summary how also athletes or people who are looking for performance enhancements can benefit because you have this general cognitive and focusing um improvement. You also have faster mental recovery, of course. Just think about someone um just uh look back at the um tennis French Open um last week, like um semi-finals when they play five sets, um, it's not only for your body a very um yeah tough um thing to do, but also from a mental point of view, you play five hours totally focused, you only have one day rest, and next day you have to play the final again. And so also if you have something for faster mental recovery um in such a competition, it might be a very interesting tool as well. Then, of course, enhanced reaction time, decision making in many sports are important, um, cognitive stress might be um tolerated better, mental fatigue and stress might be reduced, and also what we basically observe every time is that people are just sleeping better. Also, I just read about something, uh a study from another company working in the field of um transcranial photobiomodulation, and they could also prove um if people used um the helmet for six weeks, they just had significantly enhanced sleep values. Like they could fall asleep faster, they had better deep sleep. So um you have very good effects on your sleep and your overnight recovery, and therefore it's also very important for people who are um also for people who are having sleeping issues, of course. Yeah, also all this is backed by a lot of science, what I already mentioned. So I can just give you a brief summary of today, but we have so many publications on cognitive performance and executive functions, in general, on brain activity, on alertness, um, everything has been published. In general, on sports medicine, what you see here, there are publications available. But also for injuries, when you think about American football, for example, on concussions, on TBI, um, there is also a strong neuroprotective effect and also a regenerative effect on the cells. So, also for injuries, for brain injuries in um athletes, it's also a very interesting tool. Yeah, so this was like an overview about the technology, about the um options we have now, the different areas of research and applications where we really feel like this might become something like a game changer in neurodegenerative conditions, in cognitive performance. And um, yeah, we would love to get all of you who are listening, who are interested in this technology to get involved. You might become a research partner if you have a good clinic and see a lot of patients. Um, of course, from a business point of view, you can also become an affiliate partner or wholesale partner. Um, if you're a patient who wants to um improve your brain health for prevention, for treatment, or you have family members suffering from cognitive issues, um, this might be something you should really look into. Um, there are a lot of good technologies out there, so many publications giving evidence that it's really working. And uh we just feel like we did a lot of work on the technology level over the last couple of years, and we are pretty sure that this is the most advanced technology we have available now. And uh we just really want to bring it out into the world and yeah, help as many people as possible to yeah get rid of um all those brain-related issues. It might be mental issues, it might be neurodegenerative. Um so yeah, please feel free to reach out to us. You can directly contact me by email at any time. And um, yeah, so that's it for today. Um, I hope you enjoyed this solo session I did this time, and um next time I will have very um yeah good guests again for sure. So thank you very much, and um see you next time again.