Write for Clicks | Ted Sperling | Full Battery Media

In this episode, I sit down with Ted Sperling, lead writer behind one of the biggest YouTube creators in the world, and we break down what actually makes content work today. 

We get into the real difference between traditional screenwriting and writing for YouTube, why the first few seconds matter more than anything, and how simple ideas can still feel fresh if you understand story, tension, and human psychology. I loved this conversation because it reinforces something I believe deeply, storytelling hasn’t changed, the medium has. Whether it’s a Hollywood script or a 25-minute YouTube video, it still comes down to conflict, stakes, and making people care about what happens next. We also talk about packaging versus substance, how thumbnails and titles drive clicks, and why most people fail before they even hit record. If you’re a creator, entrepreneur, or anyone trying to get attention in a crowded world, this is a masterclass in how to think, not just what to do.

When you create content, are you thinking more about getting the click or earning the watch?

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Premise, have you know 25 minutes of like ups and downs. Um and uh, you know, there's not a ton of like times where we'll we'll scrap an idea and move on. We usually kind of know what's on the platform, what's worked for us, doing twists on things that are pretty familiar. Uh and if we do take a swing, if we take a swing with packaging, we try to keep the sort of format like something we've seen sort of before. Um, and if we take a swing with format, we try to make sure at least the packaging, I think, will be clickable and you know, generally be something that like fits our channel.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Well, welcome everybody back to the Full Battery Media Podcast. I'm your host, Sean Trace, and I've got an awesome guest with me today, which like to tell people who you are and a little bit about what you do.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Uh yeah, my name's Ted Sperling. I am the lead writer for Topper Guild. Um, it's a YouTube channel and YouTube personality with uh I think 84 million subs right now. And uh I've been his lead writer for about a year and two or three months. Um and we can talk about my other stuff before, uh, but that's what that's my current role.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

That's rad, man. How did you get into this, this career? What was it that that pulled you down this path? What was the the first catalyst that got you going?

SPEAKER_00 1:26

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, so I moved to LA um, you know, 15, 16, 17 years ago to, you know, be a comedy writer. Basically write screenplays, half hour T TV shows. Like my dream job was to like write on The Office or you know, huge arrest development fan um back in college. And uh yeah, so I wanted to um I wanted to write comedy and then I I started working at Lionsgate as an assistant. Uh and I kept like writing my own scripts, um, like either pilots or feature films, and then started getting nibbles with that. Uh, got you know, a manager sort of um segued into like a writer's PA job on this Fox show that was created by Mitch Hurwitz who actually created rest of development, and then um it kind of culminated in me sort of getting enough meetings and writing enough good samples where I was in a meeting where we decided a producer wanted to kind of make a movie around King Batch, who at the time was just coming off of like um a really big sort of uh he blew up on Vine basically. And he this producer wanted to like write a feature film about him, so we like kind of pitched out ideas, talked about like what would be funny, and we came up with this idea where it was um a guy has to join a fraternity in deep south central. King Batch has to uh join a fraternity, but um he's never been to school, and it was like a house. Uh sorry, I haven't talked about this movie in a while. Um it was a uh his dad stashed like a million dollars from like a bank heist at the bottom of this like flop house in deep south central, and then it ended up being a fraternity house. Like um, so he has to like pledge it to get the money that's at the bottom of the house.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Like, um, pretty an awesome story.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Yeah, pretty fish out of water comedy. Um, so I wrote that movie, and then that got released by Lionsgate, actually, which is where I used to be an assistant, so that was kind of cool. Um, so yeah, so I was like kind of writing high. I was like, I wrote a movie that got made, like, that's the dream, and you know, had like a pretty solid management company, and just stringing together other like paying jobs after that was just easier said than done. So I was like 2019, 2020. I was looking for a day job where I could kind of use that to be a full-time writer and just get paid like a normal wage, like any sort of writing job, whether it be like, you know, sketch comedy, um, you know, kid show, whatever. And then on LinkedIn, I found a uh a writing position for Collins Key. And I didn't know who he was, and I looked him up and I was like, he was getting crazy views. He was getting like views and like the 150 million. Um, so I applied to that. Like there was like writing tests to like do it. Um, and then he hired me in 2020, uh, I think after the pandemic. So I was remote for the longest time. It was a writer, a writing team of three, and we basically came up with YouTube titles every week. We came up with a hundred, and Collins would go through them on Friday and either green them, yellow them, or just leave them blank, and green them is like, okay, that's a banger. Yellow, like, all right, rework it, but like that's good. And we put them in like a spreadsheet, put them in like Notion, and we basically built a corpus of like super clickable ideas, and we were called the clickable ideas team, actually. So I did that for like um a couple years. I mean, I was with Collins for four years, but we did that for a year or two, just writing titles and watching YouTube. So then that's when I started to get really like knowledgeable about YouTube, and um and then after that, he started seguing more TikTok. So I started writing like TikToks for him, and he had a few big TikToks, like the drive-thru one. Um, they got like 170 million. We did a brand deal for uh Jail Blaster. Uh so yeah, and then that job sort of ended because he wasn't really making as much cont content. And then I was like, all right, well, I have all this YouTube experience. I'm kind of in, I know how to write YouTube. Uh, what else is out there? So I started working for Zamolo for a little bit, Rebecca Zamolo, and writing for her. And then um, I'd already been talking to Topper, and then he was kind of like, Well, we've never really even had like a writer like you. Can we sort of like create a position for you and get you over here? Um and uh yeah, so basically I went over to Topper, um, and that's where I've been.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

That's awesome, man. Well, yeah, we when you're writing content, like, because I mean, writing a movie and writing for YouTube are primarily different. Like, are they very different? Are they similar? What what's similar? What's different between writing movies and trying to create content for YouTube?

SPEAKER_00 6:29

That's a good question. I would say they're surprisingly similar. Really, but I've I've had I've you know, I've um I've also had like people who have come from traditional sort of like put together like a writing packet or a writing test for like freelancing for us, and they don't get it quite as much. So it's I would say it's similar in that like the principles of like even though this is like kids' YouTube, you still want to have like attention, action, like close calls, um, you know, just like stuff that's like funny, stuff that's visual. Uh all those things that you would want to put in like a movie or TV show will be in a YouTube video, but everything has to be, I think, faster, less talky. Like you're not gonna get any points for like people two people sitting there having clever dialogue. You don't, you just don't want that. And I love writing dialogue, but you don't you just don't want that in kids YouTube. Um so those are I mean the differences are basically just needs to be faster, you know, know the audience that you're writing for, and uh, and but with traditional, I think you have a little bit more you have more time to set things up. Uh-huh. So yeah, this is just like a it's a faster condensed version of it, but it is it is very similar. I mean, I write my scripts that look like essentially a TV outline, and I learned that kind of format from working as a writer's PA on that Mitch Hurwitz show Running Wild. So there's a lot of overlap, but um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Well, it's interesting too because for a long time I know a lot of YouTubers were kind of not so uh they weren't I'm trying to figure the right word. I remember like I saw this advertisement for a famous YouTuber, and he was like, and I had spoken to someone in their team and they said, Oh, we specifically try to stay away from people who are in traditional TV because they have these ideas that are really rigid. And it's interesting now because a lot of them are, you know, a lot of YouTubers are are kind of bringing in more of those people now because they're those people have an understanding of scale. They have an understanding of how to grow things and how to operate at a kind of just this uh not gonna say more professional way, because so many Uber tubers are super professional now, but just at a different level, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Yeah, I I think it is. It's sort of um, I kind of see both sides of it because I think some people from traditional have the, I guess, ability or tendency to almost look down on, not even almost look down on YouTube, right? So it's like, you know, if you went to like NYU film school or AFI or something and you end up writing for a YouTuber, uh, you know, you think that you've gone like, oh my god, this is hilarious. P.S. I actually wrote a TV pilot about a guy who runs Sundance and ends up writing for like a 24-year-old um YouTuber. And so like his boss is like much younger than him. Um but yeah, I think traditional people, if they want to respect YouTube, they will be fine. But I think if you go in thinking like you're too good for it, and you've been writing like really cool features or really cool like half-hour live action stuff for adults, and you don't like watch a bunch of YouTube and like kind of get the whole ecosystem, then it won't work. And that's why I think people are like, oh, we don't want to hire traditional people because they think they just know how to do things like the way they do. And um I think you have to respect how smart YouTubers really are in general, and how smart the editors are, how much we think about these episodes that seem maybe to like if I showed these to my friends back home in Portland, they'd be like, There's no way you write like a 10 to 15 page script and do multiple table reads and like punch things up and rework things. You'd be like, This is like a camera and a couple friends doing hijinks. And I'd like, no, it's way more involved than that. So I think traditional people have to respect it if they want to if they want to be in.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

I I I think that that has to be it. Like, it's like what a funny comparison. I remember the early days of the UFC, and like they had all these guys who are like, I you know, the dude who was a boxing guy only, the dude who was a wrestling guy only, and then suddenly all these people came along and they're like, Oh, we're doing MMA, like, well, what the hell is that, you know? And these people initially were really leery of this new medium, you know. But yet finally there was this like, wow, these guys are doing amazing things and they're exceptional at what they do. And there's this level of respect that comes up because you know, people, I think the you know, traditional media was one like, oh, YouTubers, it's just this this fringe thing. Man, these guys and people are far from fringe anymore. Like YouTube, you know, my daughter in her generation has knows YouTube stars way more than they know movie stars. Like, she knows all of these different YouTuber stars, and she could pick any YouTube star out from a lineup, you know, but put a bunch of different famous, famous movie stars in front of her. She's not gonna know who most of them are, you know?

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Yeah, no, that's crazy. I mean, yeah, I mean, I remember kind of realizing that back when I was first working on this like movie with Fricking Batch. I had a friend who she was an exec at TBS, and she was like, we did a focus group. Um, she worked in like scripted comedy, and she's like, we did a focus group with like you know, 12-year-olds. And this was back in like 2016, 2017. So like all of them want to be YouTubers or social media stars, or like at the time, you know, Vine stars. None of them want to be directors, movie stars, etc. And like, yeah, so yeah, it's pretty crazy, it's pretty crazy how how big it is. Um, and also kind of how new it feels, too, in a way. I think is it just the creator economy as you know, there's there's a finite number of channels that scale to a point of hiring like dedicated writers, and it's only gonna get more, but it is way more than it was like you know, three, four, five years ago. Like it's I've been the full-time YouTube writer since 2020, which is kind of crazy, but it'll get more common, I think.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

That's awesome. Yeah, I think so. And I think that one of the things too is I think that um I was having a discussion with someone recently about AI and everything, and I think that there's this place for the human touch and the premium touch, and that you know, people are gonna see more of like I know that there's gonna be a bunch of people who spam the market, just spam with like ton of stuff, but I really feel like the creativity is still super there, whether that be artistic camera angles or artistically, you know, are really well-written scripts, man. Um, but you know, and that leads to me to ask this question like when you sit down to write, what are you actually solving for first? Are you are you looking for a hook, a story, a joke, retention, shareability? Like, how do you decide which one matters most for any specific video?

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Um, it's a good question. I think I think we're we're pretty big into our intros. I think, I mean, first off, I mean, obviously packaging is good, but I I guess it was more of a question about scripting. But um our intros have to be visual and big and get, you know, uh, I know that like the guys with TB and R Preston have something about like, you know, it's got a promise of something in the first like X seconds. I think it used to be like 15, 30, or 30, 60, 90. I think it's gotta be way more compressed now, but like you have to like know what the video is about. Um, a lot of times you want to get a why, uh, and you want to know that you're gonna like pay it off like very, very um, very early in the video. But when it comes down to like what we do is we we have an intro that you know feels like a version of the title. Like today I did this. Um, you know, and I think from traditional screenwriting, people talk about goal, stakes, urgency. So like we have like a goal, uh, there's stakes. Like, if I don't do this, then like the bounty hunter is gonna get me an urgency like by the end of the day. So like we try to get like that out there pretty quickly, um, with extremely visual, cool shots that are gonna kind of give you a taste of what that video is. So you're kind of just proving like it's not clickbait, like what you clicked on is gonna be like awesome and cool and have cool visuals, and like that's the premise of the video. And if we can get a Y in there, even better. Uh but yeah, that intro is huge. Um, and then yeah, when it goes in like the first non-intro scene, like that's gotta be action, hopefully, as soon as possible, but not pointless action. Um, it's gotta be like on story and make sense. But you know, if we have to set something up to make it like a real and cool caper with like two lines of dialogue, then awesome. Um then go for it. But it's not gonna be, it's not gonna be like a two-shot of people talking.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

So I I like that because you know it it you're you're sitting there and you're looking at this picture. It it's like I I look at any story that I'm writing as like a painting, you know, and I've gotten certain things and I'm I'm trying to create. Like you go to the museum, like what makes you want to look at a picture, man? Like, what is it in that picture that really hooks you? There's got to be something in there, but at the end of the day, you're looking at this whole composition. So whether you're looking at the thing that pulled you in, I mean, this, and humans have been doing this since like ages ago, you know, like since ancient times, whatever artwork you're doing, like is there something that pulls you into that story, you know? But you know, what does your first three-second process look like? Do you start with a line, uh a visual, a title, a premise, or a twist? How many and how many versions do you usually test internally? Like, what's going on up here, man?

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Yeah, it you know, honestly, it moves so fast. We do we do a uh, you know, 25-minute long form episode video every week. So when I'm sitting down, I am like usually writing the intro, and I'm usually kind of going, like, does this format hit something that we've already done? And can I use that sort of as a template? But how can I make it different so it doesn't feel too familiar? So if we're doing like a manhunt video, it's when like you know, Topper's on the run from like the cops because he was framed for like stealing uh, you know, Hunter's from K-pop Demon Hunter's Lamborghini, something like that. Uh you know, I know that we did like a Ronaldo like Lamborghini one. So I'll kind of pull up that script to be honest. Things move fast, and it's like, I'm like, wait a second, I know that this is gonna have like a certain sort of, you know, he's gonna have security footage, he's gonna have challenges, um, you know, maybe light on the challenge for that one, or if it's a murder mystery, I know I figure out like, oh, is this the one where is this the format where we do like six challenges and like seven suspects and we reduce suspects each time? So there's a set number of formats. That said, we've also kind of like created formats and come up with hybrid formats. So that sometimes is creatively coming up with a cool story, and it usually comes up with having Topper in some sort of you know jam. So he needs to work hard to get out of it, and because I think I think a scene will feel flat if you don't know what he's like trying to do or what he's trying to like avoid or get out of. So it's really being about does this like premise have you know 25 minutes of like ups and downs? Um and uh you know, there's not a ton of like times where we'll we'll scrap an idea and move on. We usually kind of know what's on the platform, what's worked for us, doing twists on things that are pretty familiar. Uh and if we do take a swing, if we take a swing with packaging, we try to keep the sort of format like something we've seen sort of before. Um, and if we take a swing with format, we try to make sure at least the packaging, I think, will be clickable and you know, generally be something that like fits our channel. So yeah. If that answers your question, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

It does, man. And it's like I like the the idea that you talked about you take him, the character, and put them into a challenging situation. And you know, people are pretty aware that you know there's going to be this way this person gets out of it. It's it's I mean, that's like great storytelling, you know. You have a character and then they start off and then they enter a challenge, you know. And like that was that's been good storytelling since the ancient Greek and Roman times, you know. It's like they there are ancient plays where here's a character, life gets tossed uptide down, upside down, and how do you navigate out of that? And I I think that that's something that it people stick around for, you know. And you know, one of the things that I think of is that people will have lots of reasons that something doesn't get going, you know, and whether it means it it's like they logistically don't prepare for it or they shut it down, you know, in pre-production, or like the idea, like something is that we can't pull this off. But I wanted to ask you this like, what are the most common reasons a concept dies before it ever gets filmed? You know, and like are there red flags that tell you this is not gonna hit, or the opposite, that you're like, this is gonna be something good?

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Yeah, I would say with the sort of YouTube cluster that we're working with, we have enough similar creators that we're kind of seeing what's on the platform and what's doing well, and you know, sort of adjacent to that, I would say if we use something with kind of like borrowed interest or like some sort of IP, like whether it be Ronaldo, K-pop demon hunters, squid game, if that seems to be like dying down and that's not like big anymore, and like our videos have been like declining in views, and that trend just isn't hot. If a creator does like another squid game before in a tanks, like that's a pretty good indicator that like we shouldn't do like Squid Game in real life anymore. Um so as far as stuff that's like you know, dies for other reasons, I can't really think of something that's died for another reason. It's really just based on like you know you know, we try to do the best version of of stuff that is kind of like on the platform and the stuff that's in our voice. So, you know, if it's extreme camouflage, uh, you know, if that's died down, like that's not even IP, that's like a trend. If extreme camouflage dies down, we'll like look at like, do we still want to do that? Um, you know, secret room stuff, that was like a huge trend like a year and a half, two years ago. If that dies down, we have to like, you know, be like, are we gonna still do one? Um K-pop demon hunters is really hot now. Will it be hot forever? Probably not. So we have to kind of look monitor that and see like, oh, if Zong or Rebecca puts up a K-pop Demon Hunters video, does it crush or does it like kind of sit there? Um, so yeah, it's really just kind of a lot, I think a lot of times based on packaging, because I think if you have good packaging, you can figure out how to make the format like dynamic and interesting by tweaking it and you know, finding kind of what that drive is. I love that, man. I um

SPEAKER_01 22:00

The one of the things too is like there's always a deep question that I think people are trying to answer in a video. You know, like I love that's one of the things I like, and I think that is an underlying tone for Mr. Beast videos is what would people do for money? You know, what would you do for a thousand dollars? You know? You know, would you fly to Paris for a thousand dollars? No, man, I got stuff I gotta do. Would you fly to Paris for five thousand dollars? Yeah, I'm kind of busy right now. I don't know if I could pull it off. Would you fly to Paris for$10,000? Yeah, let's let's keep talking. Would you fly to Paris for$100,000? Bonjour. You know, I mean, like, yo, hey, there you go. And it's like, but that's an age-old question. That was, you know, that's a great question that was asked in I think leaving Las Vegas and some other movies. Like, you look at these, what would people do for money? And it might seem like it's just people doing challenges, but nah, man, he's asking a fundamentally deep question of like, you know, I I think there was like a video he had where it was like zero to a hundred, and like he had someone from each age that was challenging each other. And like it was brutal to see what some of these 50 somethings or 60 somethings were willing to do for cash, man. They were just like ganging up on little kids and stuff. And like right there, it was this fundamental like uh attempt to look at what would people do for money, and you know, um, it's wild like that because I think that again, those concepts, whether it's on YouTube or whether you are, you know, writing classical and a classical play for the stage, man, it's gonna be the same thing. You're still looking at these, these, these underlying concepts that you're asking, you know, uh, what would you do for a family? What would you do? I I studied acting. I studied with the wonderful uh teacher Ivana Chubik in Los Angeles, and she has this great technique uh that she developed. And it three basic points are this, you know, like what is your character's goal and objective in the scene? What is your overall objective for the whole film? And what are your challenges from getting there? You know, it's like it's like I try to tell people like this, right? So if you don't have obstacles or challenges, let's imagine a movie where my wife and daughter are in the building next door that's a big 23-story building, and I'm over here in my house, and I need to go rescue them. So I walk, take the elevator down in my house, walk across the street, I press the elevator button and it goes up. And I'm like, hey guys, let's go home. And they walk in the elevator, we go back down and come back home. It's a pretty shitty movie, you know. There's no, there's nothing that's stopping you, you know? But you know, it's like, okay, well, let's uh let's let's throw some challenges in there. Power's out. Oh shit. And now I gotta walk up all 25 floors of that movie. Um, what else? You know, there's a mafia in the building, you know. Oh shit. Mafia in the building, and they're holding my wife and my daughter hostage. Well, that's even fucking harder. And each floor is filled with a henchman that I've got to fight my way through to get to the top. Well, that was the plot of the movie, The Raid. You know, such a good movie. And his brother was at the top of the building, and this dude had to do kung fu to get to the top. Great movie. But like, I think that you could do a YouTube video about that where, you know, you gotta rescue your family, and each level there's a new challenge in the building. Like, it's the same concept that you're looking at. It's just a different form.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yeah, no, that's a great point. I think I think what you brought up too is just like, yeah, challenges and like conflict. You know, I think it comes down to like a lot of times when people read like a traditional screenplay, it's like, oh, this wasn't working because there's no conflict, you know. People were too sympathetical. There wasn't enough in the in their uh there wasn't enough external challenges like in their way to make it interesting. And, you know, this is kids YouTube that I, you know, we I don't know exactly our audience to be honest. I think it's probably six through nine. You know, uh, I don't think 11, 12-year-olds are necessarily, I mean maybe they are, but I think I watch with my four-year-old, and it's like it doesn't matter if it's for like pretty young kids, you still need to have like conflict, like things being difficult, things to overcome, tension. Like we're big on close calls. If we do a secret room video and you want someone walking by and like looking right up against them, being like, oh, is it you know, it's stuff that you see in Scooby-Doo, it's stuff that like you know, it does it doesn't matter if it's for kids, it needs to have that same level of like tension in like a feeling of like difficulty uh for the protagonist. And it's like, I think before I got into this, I might have thought for kids YouTube it's be a little bit more frivolous or something. I don't know, just like if they're having fun and goofing off, you know, but it's like you know, you want a kid to believe that bounty hunter is gonna come get them, you know, even though we know it's very kind of over the top, and but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Yeah, it's so true, man. And you know, I I I love watching the one where like people are running from a bounty hunter and shit. That's just awesome, man. Yeah, because you think about it, like you sit there and you watch a movie, and you see this movie, like Great Escape, great movie, one of my favorite movies from back in the day, with like Steve Steve Queen? Steve McQueen, man, and uh what was his other name, the other guy. Um oh, he's like he he's like the the original archetype for what John Barenthal is. I can never remember his name though. Um, but yeah, great movie. You know what I'm talking about, right? Yeah, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Yeah, I'll look that up in a second. I'll throw it up in the in when I when I edit the podcast. But you know, you sit there and they break out of the of the jail and like, wow, look at how these guys pull it off. They tunneled out of a prison and then they escaped. But you sit there and go, dude, could I do that? Could a normal person pull that off? You know, I was like, dude, I would love to see Mr. Beast. Mr. Beast, if anyone from Mr. Beast is listening, let Mr. Beast try to recreate the great escape with a team of people that they have to tunnel out of like a prison camp and then try to see if they can tunnel out and poke out and escape from prison guards. That would be rad. And I mean, yeah, that would be right.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

That would be more like escape from Alcatraz. Yeah, it's like a it's like those eternal questions. Like when you're a kid, you're like, oh, can you survive quicksand? Can you escape Alcatraz? Like all these, yeah. Those are like cool, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

And and like we used to look at those things with movies, but people began to lose faith in Hollywood because Hollywood always had to let people win. And you know, it's sometimes the thing with the YouTube, people lose, you know, and that's interesting to see as well. Now, I want to ask you this because how do you structure a short video? Because we're talking like long form, it's easier, but how do you structure a short video so people keep watching?

SPEAKER_00 28:43

Yeah, uh, so I learned a lot about shorts when I was working with Collins Key, and he and so when he sort of stopped doing YouTube long form, um, he got really into TikTok and in YouTube shorts. And his big thing was always engaging opening, reason to stick around, and a replayable moment. So basically engaging opening also, you know, also we call it like the hook, you know. Why why is someone gonna gonna watch it? Like it can be it can be like a verbal hook along with a cool visual, like how many, you know, how many chocolate bars will stop a bullet, you know? Boom, okay. I wanna know. Um, with like maybe a cool visual with that. You know, in TikTok, it can be, you know, a very attractive person. Like that's that's an engaging opening doing like dancing or or doing something, something colorful. Um, you know, reason to stick around a lot of times is something funny, something you know what this video is gonna be. Um and then a replayable moment, a lot of times it's something visual that is uh, you know, sometimes you know, you do a little trick where you cut it off a little early. So you're like, oh wait, did that happen? Um but yeah, yeah, reason, you know, replayable moment a lot of times is like, I don't know, a nutshot or something. Something like kinetic and big and something that, you know, like people would go back, literally, you know, rewatch the TikTok or, you know, go back and um yeah, so yeah, you don't have that much time with it. So it's it's gotta hit you from the beginning, and but then it's also gotta make sure that you don't, you know, that's the whole like reason to stick around. Like, is this video gonna be good or answer the question or pay off the hook? And then the replayable moment, something that like cool, cool, something cool happens, you know? Yeah, so I love that, man.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

Well, I want to ask you this like uh Topper Guild is known for big, simple, high-click ideas. Like, how do you find simple concepts that still feel fresh and not like the audience has already seen it a hundred times? How do you keep something original? Because I mean, we're getting into the time, especially now where everyone copies everyone. How do you keep things original, man?

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Um, yeah, that's a great question. I I think as far as like simple and clickable, like we'll do all of titles. I mean, I I've written so many titles that I know how to like the whole, you know, I remember Mr. Beast did some vid summit thing like seven years ago about how like you know, if it's like I survived, you know, I spent 24 hours in the or I spent a night in the rainforest. Like, how do you plus that up and make it interesting? So I take out, spent, put in survived, I survived, and then put like a clock on it 24 hours, like, and then you know, in the rainforest or world's most dangerous or something. So, like, all those little tricks about making titles different, like switching orders of stuff, like making it sound clean, like you don't want to bump on anything and just needs to sound like okay, I get it. Like, there's no like, oh, I thought you meant this. So, like the title needs to be simple, intriguing, clickable. Um, and how do we make things different? I think it's you know, sometimes it's a little it's bumping a little bit of everything, like with a little bit of twist on something new. So it's like if the packaging, like maybe do a thumbnail you haven't seen before, don't do a tired thumbnail. Um if you're gonna do like another extreme camouflage or secret room, find a situation or a title that you haven't like seen before, even though that general format has been done. Um and then in the videos themselves, it's like we're big on, you know, you try not to repeat a challenge, you try not to repeat a bit, you try to do if you're gonna do a chase scene, you try to do other stuff other than like throwing like balls behind you or like you know putting slime on the ground. Like you try to mix up those things so you know when a kid's watching it, they don't feel like, oh, I've seen this before. And then maybe when an older kid's watching it, they're not like, oh, this is lazy, like this is you know, stock or whatever. Um so I think it's about like we're probably not gonna reinvent the wheel on something and take a crazy swing, but I will say that we put a lot of effort into making a thumbnail just freaking cool. And even if that's based off like a mashup of oh, we saw this thumbnail from like four years ago that someone did, but then we saw this other image. Like, what if we put like this here and this here? Or sometimes they're completely original. Like, what if um or I'll look at old movie posters for like thumbnail ideas? Uh, you know, just like what looks like kind of iconic and cool. Um like I've always wanted to do one that's kind of like the Bruce Willis and Die Hard, like going through their event, you know. That'd be a cool, that'd be a dope thumbnail. Um, that style.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

Um that would be an awesome video video as well, man. Yeah, recreate diehard. Could you pull off diehard? Dude, another another video I want these guys to do. I someone on YouTube, please redo Die Hard and see if an average person could actually pull that off.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

Yeah, I mean, now you wouldn't even have to, you'd probably it would probably end up being original enough. You wouldn't even I don't know if the like the IP or borrowed interest even helps with this age, so you might as well just call it like I escaped a building with terrorists, you know.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

100%. Yeah, and I didn't die in a hard way, you know. So exactly.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Yeah, you strike for the adult.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Yeah, yeah, right. When a video hits, like when a video really hits, you know, gets gets high views, and people really talk about it, and it stays it stays relevant for a long time. Where do you see thumbnails, titles, first frames, and pacing? You know, how much of that is writing and how much of that is packaging? How much of it is it is just uh the this other factor that we can't even figure out what that is, though, too?

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Yeah, that's a great question. I would say I'm gonna borrow something that Jordan Oner said on like the I believe John, is it Yanushi? I don't know exactly how to pronounce his last name, but um he said something that was basically like 85%, you know, the success reviews or of the video, 85% of it comes down to like packaging, like did they did they click on it? So title and thumbnail, like concept. Um so I would say, you know, probably similar, I would say like they have to like they have to click on it, you know. Um, and then I would say it's also our job to make sure that they don't get bored or click away or feel like it's not gonna pay off what that title and thumbnail is. I mean, I remember there's an old, I think the same vid summit thing I watched probably in early 2020. Um, Mr. Beast and it's like YouTube is about two things. Did they click and did they watch? You know, and it's like the first job is getting them to click, so that's title thumbnail. And probably for my for the age group I write for, it's probably just thumbnail. Like I watched my four-year-old, he's probably not reading like I survive, you know, uh, you know, I stole K pop Demon Hunters, you know, secret diary. He's not gonna read that. He's gonna see like the K-pop demon hunters like behind Topper and he's running and like the cool colors, and he's gonna be like, Yeah, I want that one, Daddy. Um so that uh you know it's really just twofold. Because if you have a banger title and thumbnail and the beginning of the video is boring, then it probably won't be a banger because they'll click off. Um so I would say it starts with title thumbnail, and then if you can just make sure that like you know, people feel like it's gonna be paid off and it's a good video, then yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

I love that, man. It's like you you you gotta get some it's like um what do you call it? You know, back in the day when you know movies, you young kids don't understand this, but when we were going out to the movies all the time, they had to have really freaking good trailers. And like, you know, I remember looking forward to trailers. Like I'd go into a movie and just be absolutely blown away, like by seeing the trailers that were coming out. And, you know, because it was so dynamic and they hooked you, they really hooked you. And I feel like right now, those same elements are going into the first part of whatever long-form content or even short form content people are doing. There is this visceral thing that grabs you, you know, and maybe it is like you know, someone getting kicked in the crotch, you know. Um I don't know, man. But you know, there's something that pulls people in. And I want to ask you this because you know, you have seen videos that have absolutely crushed it, but I'm sure that there's been some that flopped. And, you know, what did that teach you? How did you, you know, what was something that you said, oh, this is gonna be great and it didn't go great? And how did you guys approach realizing what it was that was not the thing, the thing that made it not perform as well, or the vice versa? Like that video that you thought, well, this is gonna be okay, but it absolutely crushed it.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

We had uh for the latter, I we had a video that was like I survived Ronaldo's house tour that came out, like probably one of the first 10 videos I wrote. I've probably written over 50, 55 uh long-form videos for Topper. Um, and you know, it's a it's a house tour video, so it doesn't quite have like I think I think a lot of times the videos that do well, even with our audience, it's young, it's like kind of something some intrigue, like I murdered Mr. Beast, or you know, I escaped something, or you know, I'm on the run or I was framed for doing something. So like a house tour doesn't necessarily sound super like saucy or or whatever. Like, so I would say like that one's probably like I think our third highest viewed video on the channel right now. I survived Ronaldo's house tour. And it was like sort of three bits where Topper first goes to his best friend's house. It doesn't even go to Ronaldo's house. Um, but there's a really just funny bit where like Shudder's his best friend, like he's in every video, kind of like the classic, like funny sidekick guy. Uh he has like a girlfriend that was like a new character that's like super overbearing. It's like, Shutter, who is this? And like the whole thing, like I remember working on that and making sure, like, because it was kind of a new format for me. And I was like, each bit of this house tour needs to have like a super funny bit and not just be like it can't be like a phase rug or like an older audience house tour where it's like, yo, this is like a really cool room that I have where I game. Like, it's not that. Like, our shit's highly scripted and highly like like funny for kids. So, like, it was a bunch of bits of like, so Shudders loves junk's junk food, but the the girlfriend doesn't want to have him, you know, eat that kind of stuff. So there's like a fridge that has like a like like a poster of vegetables, and when he opens it, like Shudder's like, here's all my junk food. And then there's like another room where there's a really creepy like tea party going on with like stuffed animals, and like you know, the girlfriend like thinks they're real. Like, and I sort of sort of sold that bit from like like a Calvin and Hobbes, you know, strip. Like, I steal from like so much shit that like people who I work with had never heard of. Like, I'll take Calvin Hobbs, I'll take Spinal Tap, I'll take Simpsons, I'll take, you know, and like make them my own. But like it is fun to like throw in, like, oh, there's like a classic Simpson style joke, which is sort of a tangent. But yeah, the house tour video, I will do that. I'll get on. Um, but yeah, the house tour video, it's like, you know, house tour video doesn't sound quite as crazy as other ones, but like that one crushed because I think we put effort into like just making everything super like dense as far as like bits and funniness.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

I love that, man. I I was curious too about um as you you make those, um, do you adapt on the fly as you're filming them? Are you sitting there working with the team to rewrite things, or is it something that like once the script is out there, you just kind of stick with it? How are you adapting to the real world changes in filming?

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Yeah, so uh essentially, um, I think with other channels, like when I was with Rebecca, I was I was on set for a little bit. Um right now, it actually moves so fast that I need to be working on the next episode. So um as far as being on set when they shoot at the house, I'll like walk by and kind of be like, yeah, that's not that sounds right. And like sometimes they'll like ask me a question, topper like, hey, that makes sense, right? Like, wait, why did I do this? And I'm like, it's because this will because our videos get sometimes kind of complicated when we do like a manhunt or a mystery. Um, we did like three videos with Mr. Beast actually. Um, and I'll get into that later, but that that was cool. Uh but yeah, I I think it it's they they topper can like direct. We have a producer that can direct. I we do multiple table reads, so we know exactly what's happening as we go into it. So there's not like a lot of huge need for rewrites. But if there's a rewrite on set, I think Topper sees the opportunity to do something kind of cooler. Um and yeah, I'm literally just in the room while they're filming, like writing next week's episode and trying to get that done so we can do like a table read on Wednesday, another table read Friday, approximate days, like you know, moves too fast of a schedule to shoot on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

So it's it's quick, everything's moving really quick, you know? Yes, yes. Uh um when you start to think about balancing, because one of the things too that I see people talking about is the algorithm, the algorithm. Yeah, how do you balance writing for the algorithm versus writing for humans? Because they're not always the same thing. Like I've seen channels that get punished by the algorithm, but people love their content. And I've seen the opposite be true as well. People that you know get more virality, but it's just because there's something in their element, there's some element that keeps kind of pulling people in initially, but it's not like they stay. You know, how do you pay attention to all of this? You know, graphs, comments, and rewatches, and how does that adjust your writing?

SPEAKER_00 42:44

Um, it's a good question. I mean, I think I will say is compared to other people who work in YouTube, I'm less of like a data guy. Like I understand, you know, CTR, AVD, like all these sort of stuff. I understand it generally, but I would say I try to make a video that feels cool and has like cool visuals, cool bits, a cool storyline. Like we did a Mr. Beast video, and I was like, we're doing a murder mystery, and I was like, I'm gonna try to do something where instead of one person being the culprit, I want to do all of them did it. So uh, and it was basically based on uh um the Agatha Christie thing, um Murder on the Orient or Murder on the Orient Express when they like all stabbed the person because they all had a reason to do it. So like that just makes me happy that it like that's cool and like different because most murder mystery type things in the genre are oh one person did it and it's like, oh I did it, you know, well you got me. Um, which is also cool. But I was like So I let kind of like I think I let editors you know Head of production, other people kind of sort of like help me understand sort of like what's going on with the algorithm and what's going on with like trending, you know, topics or titles. But like once I know that like what the title is and what the format is, I'm just trying to write like a really cool video, and then hopefully that sorts itself out later. And I think editors are really good at knowing like data. Um, you know, topper's really good at knowing, like, oh, you know, all YouTubers are like on YouTube Studio a lot. So like they, you know, they they know, like, oh shit, this one didn't, no one clicked on this one, you know, or like this one didn't hit. Um, I'll look through comments, but comments are, you know. Comments probably don't give you enough of a discerning sort of uh viewpoint because I think the people that do go to comment on sort of kids' YouTube comment are just kind of positive, you know. Like they're kind of like, oh, shutters is funny. That was funny when you did that. So I don't really like learn a lot from the comments. I just try to make a really, really cool video that I'm proud of and also feels like it meets the audience's sort of like expectations.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

Yeah. If you had to teach a brand new writer to make videos that consistently get high views, what would what would the first steps be? And and what would you tell them they really need to be focusing on?

SPEAKER_00 45:25

Um, great question. I'm actually um sort of in the early process of of starting kind of like an online writing school because I know so many people who come from like, yeah, like what right now it's called YT Writing School. Um, it'll be YT YTwriting School.com. So had to throw a plug in there. But uh still launching it. I want to like start like online classes in June because I I've kind of realized coming from traditional that there's so many screenwriting classes, you say like extension, UCV, what whatever, like screenwriters that have done it. And there's people who want to come from traditional to YouTube, and I see them turn in like packets and samples, and they're not quite getting it. And I just think that there's there's room for that as this grows and more and more channels need writers. But uh to answer your question, I would say honestly, it's the same way they teach you how in a TV writing book, it's the same way they teach you how to write a TV episode, like a TV writing book from the 90s that I probably bought in like 2008, will say, watch your favorite episode, pause it and write down everything that happens, like scene for scene, and kind of know like what that looked like. Like, know what like know what a stolen beat sheet kind of looks like. Because when you're first doing it, you might be like, Oh, is that was that a full scene, or is that a full beat? Like, you even get better just doing that. So just like know, like, okay, basics, like it there's an intro. Okay, there's a scene where like all the characters are in it, um and then they split up, and then okay, the uh the bad guy who's searching for their extreme camouflage spots is gonna come at the midpoint, like 12 minutes out of 24. Just like knowing that, and like doing it on even a basic level, like a one-liner almost, like on a call sheet, like you know, topper and crew runs from Bounty Hunter. Like, there's microbeats within that, but like be able to just sort of know that, but then also think more visually than you might for like you know, other mediums. Like, think like you know, will a kid get this joke? Can I do something that's like like if a scene feels talky, it's like to defend that, I'll be like, okay, I'm gonna strip down the dialogue, and then a car is gonna come out of nowhere and like hit like a garbage can of uh of balls, because like kids will like that, but like find a reason for it. So like there's a little bit of like kind of cartoonish like stuff where it's like, can I get an elephant tooth-based explosion? Can I get like something exploding or like someone jumping off like a cliff or something to throw in there so it's not talking? So think really visually, and then yeah, I could talk about this for hours to be honest. Um, but uh yeah, it just sort of knowing like like structure and that there's there's really gonna be no scenes that are off story. Um, there's gonna be no scenes that are gonna be, you know, boring, and then just know what cluster you want to write for and just study that. And there's a good chance that if you study it and kind of like half copy it first and then kind of put your own spin on it, then you will be able to end up writing an episode, but it does take practice and it does take watching a lot of it. I think a lot of people think like, oh, I wrote blankety blank, and I've talked about this, but like I can write YouTube. It's like you want to be able to watch enough, you can be like, oh yeah, there was a really cool Ben Aslar video from two years ago where he uh you know did blankety blank. What if we did that, but that, you know? Like that's really helpful too, because it's like certain things are proven. We've seen how they work on screen, like we've seen that they can be shot. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

I love that, man. Well, where can people find out more about you and your course and everything that you do, man?

SPEAKER_00 49:17

Oh, thanks. Yeah, I appreciate it. Um I do have a website, it's www.tedsperling.com. Um uh that's and then I also have www www.ytschool.com and um sorry, ytwriting school.com. And uh I believe that'll be live by the time this actually this is gets edited. But um yeah, I just think it'll be a cool thing to uh yeah, I think there's a lot of people that want to get into it, and there's gonna be more and more writing jobs, writing specific jobs for YouTube in the next five, ten years. I love that, man.

SPEAKER_01 49:50

And I hope so, because I think it's such a great place and great, there's so much great content to be made. And I think if people can study the greats and get out and learn, I you know what I would love if I were to recommend something for for you know, YouTube writers, I'd recommend go out and read classics, man, watch the classic movies, go look at cra classic scripts and how people were crafting stories because I think storytelling is storytelling, you know, and whatever you're doing. I'm heading back to I have another podcast called Barrels and Roots, and um, it's all about wine. I grew up in the Napa Valley, man. I love wine country, and you know, but like one of the things people I think that industry doesn't get, like they try to show pictures of the wineries and show these beautiful things, but I'm trying to tell the stories of the winemakers, I'm trying to tell the stories of the people making it, the people in there doing it, because I think those stories are more interesting. And I think that if you can tell good stories, you know, people people come for stories, you know. And I think that whether it's in Star Wars or Disney or wherever, man, you know, or YouTube, people like good stories and they stick around for good stories, and people can see through really bad stories, you know?

SPEAKER_00 51:00

Yeah, no, I I 100% agree. And I think that's what kind of I think you're saying, yeah, I think you're we're on the same page because like that's what I was saying about like earlier when it's like the principles that apply to like screenwriting apply to like YouTube writing. It's like, you know, 100% a protagonist you like, like challenges, like you know, conflict, like make it hard, you know.