Pretty Websites Don’t Convert | Josh Passler | Full Battery Media

I sat down with Josh Passler, founder of Finart, a web and brand studio built exclusively for financial advisors, and this conversation genuinely shifted how I think about online presence and brand strategy. He's an advisor who learned design, and that distinction changes everything about how he builds for his clients.

We got into why so many advisor websites look identical, why beautiful design without clear positioning is just expensive decoration, and why your homepage functions more like a bouncer than a brochure. 

Josh also broke down his "cover your logo" test, the real reason mimicry kills your brand, and why ugly websites with precise messaging will always outperform stunning sites with fuzzy strategy.

What's one thing about your brand that you think truly sets you apart, and have you ever actually said it out loud to a potential client?

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

what they should be asking themselves really is is even a harder question. And this really stumps like any client that I work with. And and it like you have to give them time to really think. Like there's there's like a few minutes of just like, you know, whether they're whether they're gonna be thinking out loud or they're just like gonna be quiet and they're just like really like kind of dig a deep. And that is like who are you the obvious choice for? And who are you wrong for? So like when there's a website that will distinguish that, you know, and they just have a little section that does that, then that's great. But like really like your your homepage should be doing that immediately without having to have a title that says like who are you? Like this is who I am an obvious choice for and this is who I'm not. Your website um hierarchy should be doing that for you already. And and that's really it. So you know if if you're not willing to be wrong for someone you'll be forgettable for everyone you know so all right welcome everybody back to the Full Battery Media podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

I'm your host Sean Trace and I've got an awesome guest with me today. Can you tell people who you are and a little bit about what you do yeah thank you for having me on here I I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

My name's Josh I uh I run uh FinArt which is a a brand and strategy or is a is a web and brand studio uh for financial advisors and um I've been running that for almost four years now.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

That's awesome. How did you get started going down that path?

SPEAKER_01 1:39

I mean I you were a financial advisor first how did you make the shift from one to the other yeah I had a uh you know I had a a magical lamp and I just shook no I'm just kidding. Um it's it's those are the best stories right there man exactly I had three wishes and then um it was interesting because you know I I was like you said an advisor for eight and a half years and I was at this point in my career where I just felt um I wasn't satisfied with it. I wasn't uh I I didn't feel uh successful. Um I was like in a weird spot and then I came across these very high producing financial advisors and I was working with them and I wanted to do a lot of financial planning but they wanted to sell products and that's the reason why they were known as top producers and not top financial planners. And I knew one route's going to make me a lot of money the other route is going to help me sleep at night. And around that time I started like just navigating um Twitter, LinkedIn, found the independent space and got to know a lot of these free people um and luckily almost every single one of them had a podcast. So I got to listen in uh hear what they had to say and and really just like you know hear about like their it's almost like a day in a day in their lives as a as a financial planner. And I just felt like so wholesome like just like uh like my heart was like filling back up again you know and I was like all right this is what I want to do. So I started to make some art pieces like uh illustrations and that's really how thin art started it would it didn't start with branding or web you know websites or brand strategy it started with like cartoon sketches and then it eventually just like evolved into what it is now.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

That's awesome man. Yeah it's cool where people start at one place and then life kind of evolves and they end up with this other cool place you know I um I uh was working in um Los Angeles and I got to do some fun movies with some cool directors but then after that the economic crisis hit and LA just kind of dried up for film and so I'm sitting there with all these other filmmakers that are doing other things and I took a side hustle and uh my side hustle was working at this hair salon freaking hair salon I know nothing about hair uh I I studied martial arts and so I learned about body work and massage because my teacher he's like if you're gonna break people you better know how to fix them a bit so we learned some like basic like pressure points and shiatsu type stuff to kind of balance things out. It was a cool part of my martial arts program. Um now when uh I was had these two things I like my boss was like well you worked with some movies right can you make some quick videos for the spa in like salon I was like sure you know what do we got and so I taught myself some editing I was really good with cameras growing up because my dad was a photographer I got into photography very early so I knew my way around a camera like really well and I started shooting stuff and you know didn't stay with hair salons forever though I I I was really successful with what I was doing but I transitioned out but I have my martial arts background so I started making videos for martial artists and specifically at that time there were some UFC fighters who had their gyms in Los Angeles. So I went to those gyms and I was like hey you guys want some videos done and I want to train jujitsu at your gym for free how about we trade and they're like sure man and like this so I got to make you know all these videos for all these UFC fighters and like Fabricio Badoom and all his bros I was doing their media and it was rad it was super fun and I got to do wild stuff man. And so one of the things that was interesting to me was that I started here but I ended up over here and it wasn't this straight line. But there were some principles that helped me kind of get from one place to the next and it was understanding um kind of what people need. And I wanted to ask you about this because I think that's something that a lot of people that are getting into business don't know what they need, you know, whether it be content it be a website it be uh designs. Yeah I mean I've I I I love this one Instagram and I see this guy pop up every now and then but what he does he goes around and finds really bad logos and he's like how can we fix this? And it's so cool to me to see what he can put together and uh it's really special. It's really interesting. But I want to ask you because you've got a really interesting background like why do so many company websites all look the exact same and why is that actually a huge problem you know yeah well first off your background that was magical that could be his own like book it could be his own movie that's that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

You could probably film your own movie. Um can I be myself hi I'm younger shot if someone doesn't agree with you you can beat them up yeah that's that's that was pretty awesome um I'd play myself for sure yeah and the uh the the the the logo designer I think you're referring to Alan Peters he's uh at least he's one of them he he's I would say he's the pioneer of those type of videos where he's like let's fix this logo and he does a magical job met him in person what wonderful guy uh truly like I think I think when it comes to logo designers he will stand the test of time and he will be known as like one of the greatest logo designers ever and like that's how good he is um but going to your question you know you know a lot of company websites uh look exactly the same and why that's really a a big issue is because I would say most firms they hire designers that they they hire them before they decided like what they actually stand for, what their positioning is. And I'm gonna sound like a broken record because like positioning is really is really what stands out the most um and you know design without positioning is really just decoration right um a lot of people will use templates or you know they they imitate a certain advisor website that they love and I've seen it all the time um which I I understand why they do it is because they want something that looks good. They want to say hey um I hear it all the time too and um and this is a props to John Cena and an objective brand but everyone comes to me and they're like hey I want to be like root financial partners you know and you know there's there's so much to it like they they want to look like Root but they don't want to do all the work that Root has done over time. And there's so much that they've done over years that have really uh accumulated over time that when they finally got this new website and this and this new look everyone's like wow this is amazing like it's like an overnight success and that's not at all. Their positioning was done you know way before their new website was done. What John and in his studio did was just reinforce everything that um Root has done has done in the past and then just made it look beautiful right um and so they took all the work understood it and then built it from that and you know every firm um you know I I I just feel like there's there's so many there's so many different ways that you can position your company right a lot of times people will skip over that but I have like this cover your logo test I I need a better title for that but it's if you were to cover your logo on your homepage can and and can you and and you do that with other websites too can you tell which firm it is you know it just based on the colors the positioning the messaging almost never there's there's some that may pass it but almost never is is the answer and that's really is it's not a design failure at that point really it's it's just that the business really hasn't decided who they're made for. So I think that's why a lot of company uh websites all look the same is because they found a a template they found a really nice uh they they found a firm that's just you know that that's just hitting threes from all sides of of of the of the net and they're like hey let's imitate you know obviously it's working for them let's copy exactly what they're doing and then they find out that there's more to it than just design and yeah that's that's why I come um come across all the time I remember when um I I I was younger and it was the 90s and everyone was rolling up and everyone went and shopped at the same store in my town.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

So everyone had it was a small town everyone had the same stoosy on everyone had the same flannel everyone had the same baggy jeans and it looked like everyone was the same person. And then there was one guy who just did his own thing and he stood out even though everyone's like I'm being original I'm being original like not really you went to the same place and they might have been original in their own way they changed one thing but he was memorable and I think that was the thing that was really you know the the the impactful thing is like would you prefer to be you know doing it like everyone else or do you want to be truly memorable and I mean because if we're talking about getting clients being memorable in a positive way is an important thing you know very true very true I want to ask you this because you know people don't have a lot of time and um and if someone comes to a web page and they only have five seconds what are they supposed to instantly understand about your business like what is it that you're supposed to show five seconds is very generous.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Typically it's less than one second you know and and that's because that's the first impression of your business right um but if you do truly have five seconds three things it should do you know it should point out like who you serve uh you know what you know why you and what changes for them so you know when when uh most financial advisors like their home pages they they'll lead with you know we're we are a fiduciary firm committed to blank uh we do comprehensive financial planning you know um no one really cares all right um no one cares the the jargon that you're using in the industry because they probably don't understand it they may understand it but they probably don't you know and the the one question that they're gonna be asking themselves when they go into your home page is am I in the right place? Right. And if you can answer that within one second, you do a great job because the you know your headline or the hero statement should really just do one job and that's just to make make sure that the right person is being seen. Yeah. But also that the wrong person has to leave right because it should be filtering out the wrong people and it should be bringing in the right people. So there's you know there's a lot of different ways to do it.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Like you know your your homepage really isn't a brochure it's it's more of a bouncer you know it just it decides who they can let in I like that the idea of a bouncer I think you know you are not allowed into the club because I mean that's one of the things too is I think that people don't want anyone to be messaging them. People don't want anyone to just become you want the right people you want the people that are going to be actually engaging and going to spend some money. But you know you have to build trust you have to build the trust to get people through the door.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

And I want to ask you too like what makes someone trust a brand online before they've ever talked to that person you know I I think the the the brands the companies the ones that are really being specific are are the ones that deserve and they gain the most trust um the more specific they are in their language the more trust they can build um you know when you use like generic copy it just it reads very generic right um and you can kind of tell like hey this is something that compliance made them do um they're really just trying to grab anyone and and and that they're trying to make anyone into a client right and at that point they're like hey you know this is really the right firm for me like are you the specialist that I'm looking for um you know trust is really just like built by demonstrating that you understand their problem better than the next person. So if you can articulate their issue in a very simple way in a very defined and simple way then they can tell that you're the right firm for them. So whether that's you saying that to someone like in person or over the phone or it's your website doing that for you, that's how trust is built over time. You know there's um you know I I I used to back in the day I I used to be um a personal trainer and and this I was like 40 pounds lighter. But but there was um I used to follow this guy and he was like one of the first evidence based um trainers uh lifters um dietitians whatever it may be and you know he um this is when like uh bro science was big you know in the early 2010s and he was like the first person that would just like argue the point really use science and evidence based approach right and he would say um the reason why my stance is not changing and the reason why it's boring is because it is the truth right and I know like science will change over time and whatnot but you know it it's you know when you keep repeating the same thing over and over again and your stance really hasn't changed and because it it might be it might sound boring. But here's the issue like he's being very specific. His language isn't changing so over time he has built that trust as the person that's you know being truthful, evidence based. And so when you come to work with him or you hire him, you know what you're getting. You know that it's not BS you know he's not selling a product. And so the same thing can be said for really any brand that that does that no matter what the product is uh whether it's financial planning uh whether it's you know a training program um or it's like a financial coach that's you know helping a a firm you know just I guess training their financial advisors in in some aspect right like if they're just if if they've been giving you the the same messaging over you know 10 years then you know what you're gonna get and that's like and you haven't even spoken to them. But by the time you speak to them or hire them, you know what you're getting and you already had that trust built up. And I think that's like the important piece there.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

It's interesting too because we see that with like celebrities. You know when you go and you're you oh why would you drink this drink? Well because they had that drink you know and you see them doing it and it's because we feel that we can understand it. And there's like this familiarity as well. And that familiarity like again and again and again eventually builds trust. But I I think that you also have to give value and I think like that's one of the things for me is like how do you signal value you know in what you're showing because you know you you're you're kind of like because now we have seconds to get people hooked on something and you know but not just hooked then wanting to stay. But I want to ask you this because what makes them stay is what makes you different because there's a there's a host people have so much selection. You want a financial advisor well there's like thousands and thousands you want a doctor the used to be doctors hi I'm the local doctor. Now people have telemedicine people have options and you know you even positions and fields that used to be guaranteed you just oh you're the doctor in town well you're gonna have patients it's not so much anymore. And I want to ask you this because why do you think so many business owners struggle to explain what makes them different?

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Hmm you know there there's there's a lot to it but from my own experience I would say it's because they're they're too close to it. Yeah and you know there's there's a and and any any designer watching this um will understand this very well but like when you have to make your own website or you have to design your own logo it is the hardest thing in the world. But when you do it for a client it's it's clear like you you go through your your approach your framework and it just makes a lot of sense but typically when when when you're doing it yourself like you're and you're too close to it it's it's the hardest thing and you know the the thing that's actually different is is so obvious uh to them uh and they they assume that they know everything right and they they really don't um and they also confuse like features with positioning so you know for from for a financial advisor though like you know we're fee only fiduciaries that you know who do comprehensive you know planning and that really describes like 80% of the industry. It's well first off it's boring is it's not deprecating anybody. And what they think is it's it's really just table stakes dressed up as a value problem. And what they should be asking themselves really is is even a harder question. And this really stumps like any client that I work with and and it like you have to give them time to really think like there's there's like a few minutes of just like you know whether they're whether they're gonna be thinking out loud or they're just like gonna be quiet and they're just like really like kind of dig a deep and that is like who are you the obvious choice for? Yes. And who are you wrong for? So like when there's a website that will distinguish that, you know, and they just have a little section that does that then that's great. But like really like your your homepage should be doing that immediately without having to have a title that says like who are you like this is who I am an obvious choice for and this is who I'm not your website um hierarchy should be doing that for you already and and that's really it. So you know if if you're not willing to be wrong for someone you'll be forgettable for everyone you know ooh that's a that's a mic draw moment right there man.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

You know I think that one of the things that we we're taught that you have to make everyone happy I had this one client that I had to say no to I had to go we are not a fit man. We're just not and I then very kindly very happily sent them on their way and later on it was it was evident you know but one of the things too like if people have ever been in a bad relationship and you're stuck in that relationship you're like oh I'm trying to make it work but sometimes it doesn't and you gotta just say All right, let's go a different direction. And clients can be like that too. I think people always want to figure out a way to fit things in. I gotta make this succeed. But I came to the realization that I can't make every single client succeed. I might be able to help them, but there's sometimes just personality mismatches that you have to be aware of. And you know, it's okay because you still have to figure out what it is that is right for you and who you're selling to. And I want to ask you this one because maybe people get all of the rest of this figured out, but you still see people making mistakes. Like, what's the biggest mistake people make when trying to build a personal brand or their business online?

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Oh, um, I mean, the the first thing that bought them to my head was like the rude example that I gave earlier, and that that's yeah, everyone's trying to look like the firms that they admire instead of really just sounding like themselves. Um, it's you know, I might have a different point of view um just because I look at a lot of advisor websites, but I can see the ones that are I'm like, oh, you copied this style, like you copied this, you know, like even like your messaging copied them. And that's, you know, I get it. I get it, but you know, mimicry is is really the fastest path to uh invisibility. Um because I think when you do that, you you tend to lose yourself and you no longer like you you no longer sound like yourself. And then you'll come to like this identity crisis where you're just trying to figure out like who you are and what you actually do. And you know, now you're sounding like a an like the firm that you aren't. Um, and that's the issue. Um so like when so I would say like that's the biggest mistake when when people are trying to build a personal brand or just like a business online, the the second biggest is really just is um they're pumping out a bunch of volume, you know. The so they're they're confusing volume with presence. Um, you know, they're posting like five times a week online with really no point of view. Um they're just it's just louder noise. Um it's not authority. And I'm like, just because you're screaming and or you're you're you're the loudest in the room doesn't mean that you're making like the best point, you know? And so uh uh a lot of times like and here's another thing is that depending on the size of the firm and how busy they are and how fast they're trying to go, that's that's the thing. If they have if they don't have time on their side, they're putting themselves at a huge disadvantage because they're building the the brand backwards at that point, right? They they're like, hey, we need a new logo, um, then we need a new website. Um, and from the website, we need to bring out our messaging and the copywriting, and then we're gonna do positioning. And I'm like, oh man, that's you you want to flip that around um because positioning is really the foundation, and then everything else is gonna be execution. So a lot of times, like, you know, I I come to find that um I come to to to see that a lot with newer firms because like you know, whether it's like a breakaway advisor or it's a small team that and that's just starting out, um, they're trying to generate revenue immediately, right? Um, because they spent so many months going through, you know, the regulations and getting them registered that they're like, all right, we gotta make money, so let's do it now. And you know, and they they tend to do things backwards. And then after a couple of years, they realize that then they come, you know, to get like a refreshing their brand, but it's not really their website or the branding that's the issue. It's it's the foundational piece. So that's that's where like the mistake is is it it isn't the mistake isn't really bad design. It's it's designing before they decided who they really are.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

I think about someone going like, hey, I'm gonna paint my car. Well, what color do you want it? Oh, I don't know. I want it to be cool. Well, that's a really general statement, you know? Like, are you gonna paint it like neon green? Well, no, no, that's not what I'm looking for. Well, what are you looking for? I don't know. You know, no, no paint shop that's worth their their money is gonna sit there and go, yeah, I'll paint it whatever color you want. They're gonna well sit there and I'll paint it what color you want is gonna be the thing they want, but they want to know what people want to have. They don't want to play a guessing game. Like, you just pick it for me. And like I have people sometimes that will tell me, oh, just pick the photos for me, just pick this, and then I pick something, and then two seconds later they're like, Yeah, that's not what I was looking for. And I was like, Yeah, because you didn't tell me what you were looking for. You got to figure that out. And I think that one of the things is I think that people want to pass us that off because they don't know what they want. And I think that is a big weakness, you know, and it can be interesting, but you know, I think that there's a simplicity though, too, because you know, I want to ask you this because I've seen things that you think wouldn't perform perform well. And I think seen things that you thought were gonna crush it fail. But I want to ask you like why some ugly websites still make tons of money while beautiful websites fail, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Um yeah. Uh I I've seen it, you know, Burke Tire Hathaway's website is is the opinion of that. It's like a 19, it looks like a Windows 1995 still. Um very straightforward. This it's just like if if you haven't looked, go see it, you'll just be like, wow, like this website actually exists. But here's the thing, like your website isn't um it's your website isn't a painting, right? It's it's built for conversion, right? And conversion is the function of clarity. So you your your website has to have clarity in it, and and aesthetics should be secondary, right? So clarity is going to be primary, and secondary is going to be the aesthetics. So an ugly site with like precise messaging uh will always outperform a beautiful site with like a fuzzy one, right? Yeah. So that's why like Berkshire, like uh, or uh there's uh there's a guy in his name's Derek Sievers. Um he has like a to me an ugly website, but it works, right? It it has everything that he wants his viewers and listeners and readers to to see, right? Um, and that's why like the ugly site prints money, uh, because it's usually doing three things. It's very, it's it's hyper specific about who it serves. So check mark on that one, right? It eliminates any friction, right? So now your eyes are are being attracted to like what they want you to see. Um and it tells the uh tells the visitor exactly what to do next, right? Yeah, I would say beauty and aesthetics is optional, but clarity really is not. Um, so that's why when you know you're building a site, you should do a site map first, um, potentially even a wireframe. You should never start with visuals. It should start with like the layout and the flow and the messaging, the positioning. And it should be in black and white. That way you do you are not influenced by the aesthetics or the beauty of the website. That will come second, right? Um, because at the end of the day, like pretty doesn't convert, clarity does. Yeah, but when you put them together, it will convert more. So that's the that's the issue.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

I I love it. And I didn't I looked up right there while you were talking, Burks or Hathaway. Holy crap, that is the ugliest website I've ever seen. Yeah, it's like amazing, but I mean it doesn't, and like one of the one of the websites that I'm still a huge fan of in a weird way is Craigslist. Like super functional. But he it hasn't been updated since I think 90 something, you know? It is so basic, it's wild like that, but it's it serves its purpose, you know. And I think that that's the thing that you have to realize is that if you can have something, I remember that I had this old beat-up car, but man, that car could drive. And I loved it, and I kept it really nice. Uh, you know, like the engine was nice, the everything else was nice, but the outside was just when I got it, it was already beat to hell. But yet, man, that car could drive, you know. And I want to think about this next question because how can somebody figure out who they're actually trying to talk to online instead of just trying to appeal to everyone? Because to me, that is one of the most important things someone can realize. You don't want to just try to catch everything. You want to catch the right thing. How can you figure that out?

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Well, it it it took me some time. Um, and it took a business coach to help me figure that out too. Because it wasn't, it was obvious, but it wasn't obvious. I don't know how else to say that. But, you know, when you if you were to look at like the last 10 clients of yours, um, you know, the ones that like paid you the most, the ones you loved working with, the ones that complained the least, uh, but more importantly, the one that stayed like the longest, that's your pattern. Like, that's who you should be writing for. That's the one who you should be designing for, not the ones you wish you had. It's the ones that you actually have right now. And I I made that mistake early on too. Like I was designing and positioning for the people that I wish I had, not the ones I currently had. Um, of course, there's always a time and place where you will, like, your business will evolve and you will have to reposition yourself, and that's perfectly fine. But, you know, when, you know, when you're trying to figure out right now like who you're actually talking to online instead of like trying to appeal, like that's that's what you should do. You should look at like, hey, who's actually interacting with you? Who do you like interacting with? And that's who you should be building around. So, you know, um that's one way is like so you you pick the person or the client um that you already love, and then you write about them, right? And that way you can stop guessing, and now you have like kind of like this uh this um the CPI that you can now build around.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

I love that because I I think so many people are focusing on the future, are focusing on what they want to get, who they want to pull in. But you're right, like focusing on what you have and the and the things that you are attracting is or like already is such a powerful step. I you know if you were to like go and and and try to uh uh approach things this way, like you used to be a financial advisor. How did that experience completely change the way you build websites and brands now?

SPEAKER_01 33:06

Uh I mean, I I yeah, I used to well I I sat on the other side for years, right? And I I knew what it felt like to talk to prospects um that took the meetings and the ones that didn't want to meet up again or you know that that I mean though those were some hard days, but I I know what made a prospect take a meeting and really like what what made them ghost you, right? Yeah. Um it's it's not a theory, it's it's a lived experience, um, good and bad, um, and more good than bad because you I got growth from that, right? And and so that's why I love it. Um But that's the thing, like a lot of designers, a lot of people that you hire to make the websites, they they've never had that experience uh with a discovery call with a potential client, right? Um they don't really know like what the prospect is is actually thinking when they land on your home page. You know, I do, like I know what they're you know, thinking. I've had that experience, I've talked to them. Um and you know, the thing I would I would say is I write for the prospect, not for the firm. You know, I I really diagnose the business before I actually touch the design. And and honestly, like I refuse to build sites that just announce that the firm exists, um, unless they are hyper-specific, like Berkshire Hathaway. But, you know, the the the site really has to do work. So I I think the best way is like, you know, I'm I'm not a designer that learned finance. I I'm an advisor who learned design. It's it's different starting points, so you get like a different output. And I think a lot of my clients see that and they and they understand that and they can, you know, I don't even have to tell them, they can just uh understand it just from like my website and just talking to me.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Yeah, I agree, man. Well, I want to ask you one more question because it's got me thinking like if someone wants to make a difference for their business today, where should they start?

SPEAKER_01 35:28

I would say if you're starting today and you have X amount of time, right, and it's is a short amount of time, I wouldn't start with design. Um, because that would put you into a really bad pos uh position. You should actually start with positioning, that's the best way to do it. Um and build around that because remember, like clarity is what's going to convert, not beauty, right? But when you put them together, they will. But if you start with beauty and you have a fuzzy positioning, it won't do anything for you. Like it'll be it'll do more negative than positive. So um I would say positioning. So really just like one sentence on who you serve, what changes for them, and why you. So if if you get that right and everything kind of downstreams from that, you'll be solid. Uh, you know, it can be in black and white. You don't have to have a, you know, a fancy looking logo, you don't have to have uh animation on your site. If it just does, you know, just a great positioning uh statement, then that'll work. Um because at the end of the day, like the the cover of your logo test, if you were to just like cover, cover the logo on a website, um and you read like their statement, you know, their their hero statement, their subline headline. Um if the page could belong to anyone, like any advisor in in in America, then the problem really isn't uh your designer, it's really the strategy that's underneath that it's been built. Um, and then from there you can you can really just kind of audit the language, audit the positioning. So at the end of the day, like if you're trying to start now, I wouldn't start with design, I wouldn't start with colors, I wouldn't start with logos, I wouldn't start with like your copywriting, I would start with like trying to figure out your positioning and trying to figure out who you serve and then go from there. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

Well, where can people find out more about you and what you do?

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Yeah, uh I am on LinkedIn a lot. So if you search for my name, Josh Pastler, uh, you will find me uh find me. Uh you can also go to my website, uh, which is thefinartist.com. Uh I do post on there as well. Um, some some case studies. So if you wanted to see some of the work, uh, but if you want to see me build it in public where I post a lot, then I would say LinkedIn is the best option.