Three ICs Walk Into a Podcast | Chala Hunter Talks "Heated Rivalry", Queer Joy & The Craft of Intimacy

Heated Rivalry's intimacy coordinator Chala Hunter breaks down how the show's most talked-about scenes got made. Two intimacy coordinators sit down with her.

Full description:

This one's a BIG ONE.

Ariel and Morgan sit down with intimacy coordinator Chala Hunter, the creative force behind the intimacy work in Heated Rivalry, for a deep dive into how some of the most talked-about scenes on TV actually got made.

From her early days of learning the job during #MeToo to stepping onto a set packed with choreography and high emotional stakes, Chala pulls back the curtain on what it takes to build intimacy that feels grounded, safe, and electric.

In this episode:

• How she found her way into intimacy coordination when the field was still being defined
• Why she prioritizes trust, play, and actor agency over rigid choreography
• How Heated Rivalry balanced tenderness, heat, and authenticity without losing its heart
• Why representation doesn't have to feel "authentic to everyone" to still be meaningful
• What happens when three intimacy coordinators get together and the nerding starts before the mics are even warm

A behind the scenes look at the craft

It's insightful, funny, incredibly revealing, and a rare behind the scenes look at the craft from someone doing the work at the highest level. This one feels like a milestone episode.

Watch along timestamps:

• Episode 4 (Rose): 21:07 – 24:29
• Episode 6 (The Cottage): 20:15 – 22:37 and 32:34 – 33:27

Subscribe for weekly behind the scenes breakdowns of film and TV's most iconic sex scenes.

Credits

Heated Rivalry | Director: Jacob Tierney | Crave

Hashtags

#HeatedRivalry #ChalaHunter #IntimacyCoordinator #TVBreakdown #QueerRepresentation

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Oh my gosh, I'm having my second watch with you guys. It's so positive. I'm so forth.

SPEAKER_06 0:07

Feel free to feel this environment.

SPEAKER_07 0:38

Hi, I'm Ariel Lee Cohen. Hey, I'm Morgan Smith, and we are the hosts of Faking It with Ariel and Morgan.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

We're two intimacy coordinators here to talk about the spicy scenes you see in film and TV.

SPEAKER_07 0:51

Today we're actually three intimacy coordinators because we have a special guest, the IC for heated rivalry, Tayla Hunter. Tayla Hunter is a bilingual intimacy coordinator, actor, and writer, currently based in Tuckeronto, 3013 territory, a graduate of the National Theatre School of Canada. She has performed in theaters across Canada. She's currently working as an intimacy coordinator for Quinn Shepard's new show on Netflix, The Body. Thank you so much for joining us, Chayla.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Hey, thank you for having me. Just made some tea because my voice is still kind of messed up from whatever like damage I did. Just being so sick and like losing my voice, basically, and still having to like go to my days on set and talk to my child and you know, whatever. Yeah. I feel it. Yeah. I feel it. Anyway, nice to meet you both. Can I put some honey in this tea before we start? Is that okay? Yeah, go, go, go, go. Do your thing. Two seconds. It's right here. I'm I'm in my kitchen, so it's uh it's a small move. You can talk about my need for honey.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

I'm I'm all good with that. We're so excited to have you here. We're huge admirers of your work on heated rivalry.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Oh, thank you. I'm so glad to be here. I know it took a minute. There was some there was some scheduling issues, but it's fine. It's been understatement quite a month and a half, like maybe just a little busy. Like some stuff is happening, you know.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Yeah, just a couple of things have popped up.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

And also at this moment in time, I'm like, the busyness comes from like great fortune, I would say. Like everything that's happening is really nice and exciting. But it still is pretty stacked.

unknown 2:32

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

It's still a lot. Yeah, yeah. I feel you. Uh so before we get into the scenes we're gonna watch today, we'd love to learn a little bit more about you. I saw that in an interview with Toronto Life, you said you became an intimacy coordinator during the Me Too movement when a friend asked you to work as one on one of her films. What was that experience like?

SPEAKER_00 2:53

It was actually a web series. I don't know if Toronto Life misquoted that. So not a dangerous misquote in the case. Yeah, just don't want anything to be quoted out of context or and therefore misunderstood or something, especially within this realm and this profession and this show. But yes, I had worked in a as an actor for a long time and I'd done a ton of intimate content. So nudity, hyperexposure, some simulated sex um on stage. I think because of witnessing me in that work over the course of like a decade and hearing me speak to it and how I handled it, as that role was emerging in this moment in time. She was like, Maybe you'd be a great person to be in that role and support this project in that way. And I was like, Okay. So I did a bunch of research and then I was like, okay, I think I can handle this based on the content that was actually in the web series. I felt I could support what was going on with the knowledge that I had at that point. But as soon as it was done, I was like, Oh, you could cause a lot of unintentional harm in this role if one was not very educated, in my opinion. I was like, For me, I need more training if I'm gonna continue to pursue this. And I think that experience was pretty positive. The actors appreciated me, the director did, the producer did. And so that led me towards a trajectory of seeking out more formal training and because I'm curious to hear some other perspectives, you know. It's like e even just speaking to another I see is interesting. Like I've had a lunch with a couple of people recently. I'm like, wow, I love hearing how you approach that or how you work or energetically where you're coming from. Like it's just cool to hear.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

I feel you. I've been lucky enough to train at a bunch of different places, and it is so helpful to get different perspectives on it, any tips or tricks that they have, because there's such a wide range of people who get interested in this profession and they all come at it differently.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Totally, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Um, so how did you end up becoming a part of Heated Rivalry?

SPEAKER_00 4:52

I did two plays with Jacob Tierney, wherein he directed wherein he directed me at a theater, a very wonderful, wonderful theater in Montreal called the Siegel Center. We did a play called Travesties and then Noises Off, both very funny.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Oh, I love noises off. Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

We honestly just clicked. Artistic approach, and I think the way our brains work, and energetically, we got along really, really well. They were both like very fun projects. We kind of stayed in touch on and off over the years. He became very busy becoming extremely successful in Canadian television. I was working in production at that point as an assistant to showrunners and also like working as an associate producer and stuff like that. And then he called me. He called me because the costume designer mentioned to him, I'd done a couple big features with her, and she mentioned to him my name, and he was kind of like, What? I know this person. Um was like, Is this for real? Do you do this now? And I was like, Yeah, you know, this is how it's going, this is where I'm at. And he sent me the scripts, and I was deeply moved. They're incredible scripts, and it just lined up, honestly.

SPEAKER_07 6:05

That's amazing. I love that. Well, with that in mind, we're gonna move into our scene work. We're gonna watch a couple scenes from Heated Rivalry. We'll see Connor's story as Ilya Rosanov and Hudson Williams as Shane Hollander. Also, I'm just curious, have you watched the whole show? Because sometimes as intimacy coordinators, we don't watch the material that we worked on.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

I know, I know. No, I definitely did. I was so excited to see the cuts, but I've only had a chance to watch it once, which feels kind of like weird in the context of what's happening culturally. Like even my very close people have watched it like three or four times. I would like to watch it again because the first time I was kind of like, did that work? Did that work? Did that work? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 6:46

So, context for this scene for our audience. Shane and Ilya are deep into their secret emotionally complicated relationship while publicly insisting they're just rivals, heated rivals. Ilya offers to make Shane a tuna melt while both of them avoid labeling their relationship. And for those who want to watch along, this is episode four titled Rose at 2107. The Tuna Melt scene.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

This is so funny because I just want to say from the frozen screenshot that I can see right now, I was like, oh, I know where we are. Like immediately. Like I know exactly where we are.

SPEAKER_04 7:27

I love that. Here we go. They're so cute together.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

They're so cute. So he has his head on his chest and they're just like, I don't know, cuddling on the couch. This was actually kind of tough to figure out their body positioning because the couch was so weird, and we wanted to make sure they felt actually comfortable. So that they could like get into like the tenderness of this moment.

SPEAKER_07 7:50

It's a great point because you could see that you could get a crick in the neck from kind of leaning that.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Yeah, like he had to kind of like be positioned in a way so that his head was resting on him, but that he could move into this next series of choreography where he's like, you know, kissing down his body and putting his head in his lap.

SPEAKER_07 8:07

What kind of barriers did you use here?

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Uh we had padded pouches, preference on the part of the performers practically. So now Shane is straddling Ilya and undoing his pants and manually stimulating him. Simulating that. I mean, this is technically complicated. He's simulating now that he's got both of their uh genitals like in his hand. For people who aren't like really aware of I don't know, the intricacies or the specificities of like queer sex and specifically gay sex, some people have written me and asked me what's happening here in this scene, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Yeah, yeah. I've seen some people misunderstanding this as like simultaneous manual stimulation separately and not maybe not having familiarity with what's colloquially known as frauding.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Yeah, which if you like watch that spit and really think about it, then I think you would understand more. Also because Ilya's arms aren't moving. You don't sense that his hand is doing anything, actually. Whereas it's pretty clear, I would say, in Shane's body that he is moving his hand.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

I love how intimate the scene becomes because they're doing that act together and how close they are.

SPEAKER_07 9:23

I also love that you could even see the his musculature, like in his neck straining as he's like sort of moving his arm. It was so realistic.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

I mean, obviously the framing helps us tremendously, but now he's getting off because he's having a small anxiety or actually very big anxiety attack. It was so vulnerable because they said each other's names.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

It's the first time they see each other's first names, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Yeah, their first names. Yeah. Huge, huge moments. Huge. Huge moment. The fact that those two characters don't say each other's first names until that point in the story is very intentional and I think speaks to how much they're holding back or resisting or navigating around the emotional connection that forms between them through their physical uh connection, through their physical interacting. And within sports and hockey culture, speaking someone's last name is like a way of connecting and disconnecting, potentially. Do you know what I mean? Totally. By breaking that norm, it's like they're moving outside of their personas and their identities as players or rivals, or do you know what I mean? Like rivals. Yeah, exactly, truly. But it does make it more personal.

SPEAKER_07 10:46

I love it. I was also curious, um, just because the connection between the two characters is so strong. I'm wondering if you did any kind of like chemistry exercises with them or any kind of activities, or if they just naturally had this chemistry and intentionality about them.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

I for sure I hope supported it and gave them space to explore that and to feel confident and secure exploring it because we were extremely clear about the action that was going to take place. We were extremely clear what each other's boundaries and consent levels were. My goal was to like empower them to feel like they could take artistic risk and go as far with the characters as they wanted to, because I knew they were both so invested in these characters, and I didn't want the intimate scenes to feel like a moment where they couldn't continue that investment in a way that felt productive and at least reasonably like intuitive and free for them. Because you're always gonna be kind of like in the technical mayhem of what it is to do an intimate scene, especially a simulated sex scene, especially one that's like technically challenging because there's so much to keep in mind. I know they did a chemistry read in the casting, so that chemistry is kind of like a testament to Jacob. And then I just tried to help support that great relationship and connection that already existed between them. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

I love that thank you for that answer. So for the rehearsal process, was it a full day of rehearsal before shooting or half day that you had with the actors? Which, by the way, almost never happens. Never, you never get a rehearsal.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

I know almost a full day because we spent a couple hours with Robbie as well, one-on-one. But it was almost a full day. I mentioned certainly in my early conversations with Jacob that I felt that would be helpful just because so many of the scenes, they're all so specific, and yet they all contain overlaps, and it's a lot of content. It's actually a lot of choreography to just like try to remember, you know? And to get there on the day and to have not had even like a small chance at it before having to engage with it with all of the other factors, states of undress, other people in the room, lighting, camera, etc. etc. But Jacob and I agreed upon that really early on.

SPEAKER_07 13:03

You can definitely tell in the specificity of all of these moments. The actors have been able to sit with the material. That's enough for it to be embodied so fully in the moment.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Well, to process it, like to literally have a body memory of that choreography, rough as it may be, so that when we got into the room, we could be like, Oh yeah, Hudson, you have to roll to this side. He'd be like, That's right, I do, and would remember, you know.

SPEAKER_07 13:28

For those who don't work in film, sometimes we're rehearsing these scenes like 10 minutes before we shoot them, and the actors are a little overwhelmed with information blocking material and where to move their hand and when, it can get a little stressful. So even just having that time outside of the space where you don't have the the urgency and the pressures of the filmmaking process to just embody that work. Choice. Love it.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

I feel like so often when we want to show two male characters like really connecting in an intimate way, it's usually through penetration because that is the most similar to heterosexual sex that we see. And I love that in this deep moment of connection and intimacy isn't coming from something that mirrors a heterosexual act. This feels like the most intimate act that two people with external genitalia can do. I was doing some research. My favorite description was like, it's like two penises giving each other a hug. And I was like, that is so young.

SPEAKER_03 14:31

That's so beautiful and heartwarming. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

I mean, because of the way we blocked it as well, it was nice in that on this coach to allow them to be that how it placed their faces and bodies in proximity to each other.

SPEAKER_07 14:47

And I love that it surrounded a tuna melt. I mean, so amazing.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

People are obsessed with the tuna melt. You both likely know this. The like really devoted fans out there. Like the tuna melt is a massive moment to people who knew the books and everything.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

It is so sweet too, because when you think about like Shane's character and how regimented his diet is and his life is, this is like a moment of indulgence and the fact that Ilya knows that this is your favorite like cheat day food, and I'm gonna make this for you. And this whole episode is about them indulging in each other.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

No, yeah. And even just the actual like vulnerability or intimacy of making someone else's food in your house. You know, absolutely within any context, actually, like includes some vulnerability as well. And it's into an offer to connect deeper, potentially.

SPEAKER_07 15:40

We should move to the next scene that we want to see. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

I'm ready.

SPEAKER_07 15:45

Yes, excellent. I am too also ready. Okay, so this is from earlier in episode six, the phone call. So context, still with an undefined relationship, Shane is on a phone call dealing with outside pressures while Ilya feeling sidelined, acts out to pull Shane's attention back to him. Starting at 2015, and we'll go to 2237.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Yeah, Shane's talking to Hayden, his best friend. So Ilya is starting to touch his leg while Shane's on the phone. Well his inner thigh, to be specific. What are you doing?

SPEAKER_07 16:20

Look at the intention on their faces.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

It's a challenge. Okay, so Shane's back on the phone and Ilya is stroking his inner thigh to see if he's getting hard. He's messing with him ultimately. Uh-oh. He failed the test. He's great. Now I'm going to simulate oral sex while Shane stays on the phone.

SPEAKER_07 16:43

The camera movement going up and down and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

The camera operators on this show are genius. We've got some very emphatic um simulated oral sex going on while Shane tries to stay on the phone. Some head grabbing, some light slapping, fingers in the mouth. All very playful. And then he pulls up his shirt.

SPEAKER_04 17:07

Oh my god, his his red face as he flies back out of freaking side.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

I know both of them committing so so fully. When we were choreographing and setting the scene, we were like, oh, this is a really fun, playful moment. Actually, they're so comfortable. They finally have this freedom with each other. They're in a place where no one can find them. And they're letting their guards down more and more and more. And this is like a game, in a way. Truly fun for Ilya, and it's also fun for Shane, which is a reveal in their conversation afterwards. I think Shane says, Why was that so hot? And Ilya says, Because you like to be bad. Which we could track that back through their entire relationship, actually. Ilya is really being mischievous in a way, and that even though Shane says he's not into that, he is.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

It's a different kind of intimacy to have that level of playfulness with another person because that's vulnerable.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

Totally. Like he's on the phone, he's getting simulated oral sex, but he's also got this hand like all over his face, like fingers in his mouth. Like it it's a bit not goofy, but it is like very playful, you know.

SPEAKER_05 18:24

Yeah, and they're just experiencing this queer joy moment, and I really I love that.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's right, that it's like this queer joy and this playfulness and a teasing, taunting quality that they're able to engage in more fully because they're less worried.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Kind of giving boyfriend. Cause this isn't like behavior you would do with someone that you're just hooking up with or you don't have strong feelings for.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

And even how they're dressed at the cottage, like I don't know how much you both have listened to interviews with Hannah Phuley, who's like amazing, but just that they like share clothes and are wearing like really relaxed things that we don't really see them in the rest of the show. They're kind of like presenting a bit more.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

That's so true. And such a huge benefit of many queer relationships is being able to share clothes. Oh yeah. Tell us of that. Ariel, you think you have time for one more scene? I I think we can. Yeah. This is from episode six at the cottage. We're gonna start at 3234. This is a scene that I describe as the first time they make love. This scene takes place at the cottage after Shane and Ilya finally admit they love each other and agree to stop pretending the relationship is casual. This moment marks a turning point where they choose each other openly, at least privately, before returning to their public lives and professional obligations.

SPEAKER_07 19:51

I also have to just say before we press play, the amount of t-shirts I'm seeing that are like, I'm coming to the call to it has a whole new meaning.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Also, look at this sunset, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Beautiful. The imagery of sunset and light on this show is so well done. So nice. Why not?

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Why not watch this sunset? Come on, we all need this more in our lives. Or I mean, I do anyway. I won't speak to it.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

No, we all no, no, we all there was something about this scene that was so healing for me, just seeing them like finally like being together, wrapping each other in a blanket, drinking hot drinks.

SPEAKER_07 20:30

It's the dream.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

I know, right? Something I love about this scene is that it's like so tender and intimate and obviously very sensual, but it's also funny. Yeah, like the lines then are so funny.

SPEAKER_07 20:44

Yeah, the director has a great sense of humor, and the actors play it so well, so so comfortably.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Yeah, nice thumb moment. That's maybe a callback to episode one. The thumb moment.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Oh, I love that. I didn't catch that. That's great.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

I just remembered that that we talked about that for this scene. Yeah, like a kind of throwback.

SPEAKER_07 21:06

Was the thumb moment in the script as well?

SPEAKER_00 21:08

I can't remember if it was for this scene, but it certainly was for episode one. It was scripted. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 21:14

So cute!

SPEAKER_00 21:18

My gosh, I'm having my second watch with you guys. It's so public. I'm so emotional.

SPEAKER_06 21:22

Oh no, that's good. I'm so feel free to feel in this environment.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Yeah. I mean, it's such a beautiful story, honestly. They're both such beautiful performers, and I just genuinely have so much love and respect for Jacob Tierney and Brendan Brady, who is the executive producer. Incredible person, incredible producer. So nice to see your friends like really put their heart on their sleeve, basically, like so much hard work. That takes so much courage, actually. So much at this moment in time, like just so much courage and like fortitude and confidence.

SPEAKER_07 22:00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 22:02

So when you work with these two actors, did you feel like structurally it was very choreographed? Was there a lot of improv? Was it sort of a generalized structure of the scene and they would kind of go from there or did it depend on the scene?

SPEAKER_00 22:16

I would say it depended on the scene. I tried to keep my approach consistent. Even when I felt like they were developing more familiarity and comfort. I'm sure I made small adaptations, but I tried to keep my approach consistent just because I didn't want to assume that they needed more or less support based on just time on deck. Do you know what I mean? Some had to be very specifically choreographed. I don't tend to like micro choreograph things. I'm not someone who's like, and now your hand goes on their face. And now you'll start breathing more heavily and now you will kiss them. Do you know what I mean? I totally unless it's scripted or unless it's requested, I don't tend to set things to that level initially, because I feel like my job is to ensure that things are specific and within everyone's boundaries and consent levels in order to enable artistic risk and freedom. Ideally, that's what I'm going for. And so I have to leave some space for that collaboration for the actress to infuse it with their spirit, interpretation, uh, character, how their own body understands that moment because I'm not in their body. I'm not the one performing it. That's what I'm saying. I'm so glad you brought that up.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Yeah. I love that so much. I think because I'm sure you know there is a common mis uh conception out there that intimacy coordinators are always going to micro choreograph every scene and get in the way of spontaneity. And I love how you're able to articulate how, even in a project that has so much specificity in the intimate scenes, there still is so much room for spontaneity and artistic exploration on the part of the actors.

SPEAKER_07 24:08

From watching these scenes, is there anything that like comes up for you?

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Um I think just like I feel actually so much tenderness towards the people, proud of them and impressed with their performance and and glad that our collaboration was as generative as it was, because based on the feedback that they gave me as people, as performers, and also from watching those moments, they appear to me to be quite confident in what they're doing and that the characters are really able to come through, and that the story and the moment in time and the physical simulated action is really being expressed in a way that feels embodied and grounded in a way that I feel glad about.

SPEAKER_04 24:52

Makes me feel kind of like tender and at the on that note, my heart. So many emotions.

SPEAKER_07 25:00

Elaborating so many feelings. Yes. Uh so at this point in the show, we normally do our spice scale where we rate intimacy scenes based on consent and power dynamics, technical craft and coordination excellence and heat factor. But every intimacy on this on Heated Rivalry gets an A. So instead we're doing a sort of behind the spice where we get the intimacy coordinator's perspective on the scenes that they worked on. So we'll start with consent and power dynamics. I know there's all three scenes, but if you'd like to pick one, how the scene depicted consent and power in the stories. Like what conversations did you have speaking to the director and the actors about their characters and about what the how the characters were consenting to the action, what those power dynamics were like between characters and sort of masculinity within that context?

SPEAKER_00 25:53

We spoke about consent a lot in this process within the characters because it occurs as a theme throughout the show. Let's say in the tuna melt scene, there's fairly large offer that comes from Shane, which is a bit different just in terms of, let's say, leading a simulated sex act that is pretty specific and that they haven't engaged in before. It's kind of like a bold offer, one could say. I think is like an expression of him ha feeling more agency, more power, like feeling emboldened in that relationship, but also in terms of the context of the scene before that, you know, Ilya's asking him about women. It's also a bit of a power move. Um, or it can be viewed as a bit of a power move on Shane's part to be like, I don't want to talk about women. Yeah, forget those girls. Yeah. I'm gonna express with I'm gonna express with my body and my offer here, like what I am interested in, or it can be viewed as a form of power to offer someone else pleasure, like extreme pleasure. You can see in their bodies and their gestures how they are articulating consent to each other that they're like interested in continuing in the way that they touch each other or encourage certain things.

SPEAKER_05 27:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 27:11

And I mean, even in like the phone scene, we have this moment where it's like, I'm not going to get hard. Okay, I'm gonna test you on this, and then he goes on. Like there's the power dynamic there is really clear and really, really funny and interesting there. They're on such level playing fields so often, but because Ilya has just more experience in this, he's just a little bit more of an initiator in a lot of these moments. I love that. I love to hear that. You want to go for technical crap? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_07 27:40

Which we've talked about 0%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

That was tricky to figure out in terms of having Shane straddle Ilya and then indicate in the way that they were framed that he is not only pulling down Ilya's pants, I forget if he was wearing pants or shorts, but literally pulling him out and for us to see a bit the pants coming, but not fully coming down, and then for him to, as you say, like do an arm movement that's believable within the frame that we're in to show that he is stimulating Ilya uh manually, and then to try to find a way to frame it again where we understand that Shane is pulling down then his pants or shorts, I forget what he's wearing, and pulling himself out, and then getting his body close enough that we can simulate this action of frauding that we like logically can kind of geographically make sense of it to put all those pieces together and to also not catch anything that we don't want to see in frame and to have the arm movement be not too big and not too small, and then they have to do all of this acting together, the intensity of imagining that physical action and the emotionality then of knowing that they have to say each other's name. Yeah, it was a lot. It was a lot to like sequence out. Yes. And to try to like give reminders like you actually have to do that moment where you pull your shorts down, otherwise we don't understand what's happening.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Yeah, the technicality of that scene is incredible because it does so clearly tell that story. And I think that's one of the things that really resonated with people is they could identify exactly what was happening in this scene. I also really appreciated how in the show, like you find moments of levity. There's also moments where things aren't always like perfectly pretty. The tuna melt scene, I like that their faces mush against each other and you can see their noses like smushing. And I feel like a lot of times when we want to tell the story in TV or film that these two are meant to be together, then the simulated sex scenes all have to look gorgeous and everyone looks attractive the entire time. And I really appreciated that on this show, that wasn't always the case because it felt more real.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Certainly within my values to allow space in intimacy coordination for people to be human and to have the bodies that they have and the lived experience that they have and the individual subjective expression, therefore, of that intimacy that feels most authentic to them in relationship to their character and the story, whatever that looks like. Unless someone's making a really aspirational show and they, you know, want me to help it look in a certain way, then certainly I can help craft that. But otherwise, I would say my values are more aligned with what I just described, like myself as a person.

SPEAKER_07 30:37

Absolutely. I also just as a side note, just because we're on technical craft and coordination excellence, man, their faces were close to the inner thigh. Like that was that was really good distance. The distancing was done so specifically. And I even just the muscle tensing, like the vein tensing in the neck, there really were just so many tiny, tiny moments of physicality that told the story so well. And I just claps, claps for Shayla.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Um you do have to get so specific when you're trying to make things when you want the frame to be bigger, you want the frame to be wider, to be able to show more, then yeah, the specificity around where someone is placing their cheek or forehead or face, and also the kind of barriers you put in and the discussions that you have around everyone's level of comfort. In case the choreography isn't perfect, then you have a safeguard in place as long as the performers or the talent are comfortable knowing that that's the territory that they're working inside of, you know.

SPEAKER_07 31:42

Our next is heat factor, the level of erotic charge or sexual attention in the scene. We we wonder how we're feeling about this. The the level of erotic charge is is quite high. And I'm I'm interested to see sort of how you crafted those dynamics. Because when you're working as an intimacy coordinator on so many scenes with the same two characters, like how do you keep each scene fresh and interesting and adapting to the changes in the characters? I'm not sure what my question is, as much as I'm just like kudos that all the simulated sex scenes and moments of intimacy really had their own arc to them that felt different from the other scenes.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

I think so often about how collaborative this role is, you know, like the camera department, wardrobe. Oh my god, the onset wardrobe person, my angel, the most amazing person ever. She helped me so much. And the director, of course, and the performers and the prop, like just everyone. It's so collaborative. But what I want to say is that I think that's a testament to the source material, very, very specific, well-written source material.

SPEAKER_07 32:55

I also just had a quick question. There is sort of a divergence of opinions as far as authenticity of sex between two men or two people with external genitalia and the authenticity of heated rivalry. And while I think it looks phenomenal, some people are saying that it doesn't portray what gay sex looks like. Understandably, sex is different for everyone, but for every person on earth, it's a little different and it can look like many different things for different people. But I think that there's an interesting background to this because the original content is written by a woman.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

First thing I'll say is that this is fiction. It's fiction. It's a narrative, it's fiction. These are characters expressing all kinds of things, including intimacy, inside of a fictionalized world. At no point does this show pretend to be reality, as far as I know. And the second thing that I would say, and I don't mean that as a defense, I just mean like, of course, it might not feel or look or be authentic to many people. That to me seems totally valid, a because it's fiction, so there is some form of suspension of disbelief and narrative leeway and style and artistic interpretation and all these things that are at play inside of creating fiction. Everyone has their own authentic relationship to an experience of intimacy and or sex. And if this doesn't feel authentic to some people, that seems completely valid to me.

SPEAKER_07 34:35

Thank you for answering my poorly worded question so well.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

No, it's not fine. And I I think that's what Francois alluded to in his response on Twitter. Yeah, totally. I I think the real issue here is not to dismiss how anyone feels about the representation on this show, is if we had as many representations of queer sex as we did of heterosex, then I think this would be less of an issue. We wouldn't need the few projects that came out to feel like they represented everyone. And I think part of the reason why this show resonated so deeply with so many people is because there was something in it that felt true to them. That's a great point.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Yeah. Let there be more representations of many different undertold stories so that we just have more expressions of what may or may not be authentic to a wide variety of people.

SPEAKER_07 35:29

Snaps for everyone. Great answers across the board. Love it.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

All right. So we've alluded to this a bit. Heated rivalry has had an incredible impact on its viewers. A professional hockey player publicly came out in real life. Ilya has become a gay Russian icon, and Shane has demonstrated the kind of love and intimacy a person on the spectrum can experience. How does it feel to you to be a part of a project with this kind of effect?

SPEAKER_00 35:56

My gosh, I would say it's like the dream for me, anyway, in terms of like a motivation to even practice art in any form, is the hope that the art will reach people and either move them or create empathy inside of them or make them feel seen or raise questions. And so the fact that the show seems to be doing that for a lot of people is engaging a cultural conversation and pushing a needle forward on an element of society.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Is there anything you can tell us about the production you're currently on?

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Quinn Shepherd's new show called The Body Switch Netflix, Felix Kulpa Films with Gina Gamel, and also North Road Productions is uh involved. The show is really, really complicated, really emotionally and intellectually and thematically fascinating, quite thrilling. I feel super excited for more information to publish this. Great, great, great. Fantastic. That's all I can say at the moment. Yeah, totally understand. I'm looking forward to season two once we start getting into that. And I'm taking a bit of time to like reflect, I guess, and absorb what has occurred and to be grateful again to be in conversation with people like you and to feel like people, the show matters to people. That's really nice.

SPEAKER_07 37:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 37:21

It definitely does. And when you do season two, we would love to have you on.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, totally. I mean, that'll be it'll be interesting to enter into season two from like a totally different place because when we did season one, we were like, doo-doo doo, we're making a small Canadian show. And now we're like, okay, better not mess this up.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

Well, thank you so much for your time and for your gorgeous work on this show. We really appreciate you talking to us today.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

Yeah, thanks for having me. So nice to meet both of you.

SPEAKER_07 37:54

You too. Thank you. We're so grateful for your time.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

Thanks.

SPEAKER_07 38:04

Oh, that was so cute.

SPEAKER_04 38:07

Oh, I love her.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

She's awesome. She's so smart. I really appreciate how thoughtful she is in her approach and also in her responses. It was so nice to get her perspective on all of the scenes.

SPEAKER_07 38:24

I really got a sense of what that set was like and what the communication style was between the actors, directors, production team.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

I think a lot of people don't understand how collaborative this job is. And I think she spoke to that really beautifully. And when you have a team that works really well together, it shows in the final product. I love that we got to find out that there was a callback with the fingers in the mouth. Yeah, that was so sick.

SPEAKER_07 38:54

Let us know who you'd like us to hang out with next.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

If you say it, they will come.

SPEAKER_07 39:01

Yeah, if we build it. Yeah, what's the field of dreams says? Thanks so much for listening to faking it. Morgan did this episode's research, and Ariel wrote context for the scenes.

SPEAKER_01 39:15

You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere you get your podcasts. New episode drop every other hump day, Wednesday.

SPEAKER_07 39:23

If this was good for you, the best way to support our show is to follow the podcast and leave a quick rating or review. It takes less than 30 seconds, and it really helps us.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

Tell one friend who loves spicy movie secrets about us. Find us on social media at faking it the pod.

SPEAKER_07 39:40

Want to get involved? Head to patreon.com slash faking it the pod. For just one dollar, you can request scenes for us to break down. For $10, you get bonus content and never before seen footage. And for $5, you get a shout-out like these listeners. Thank you, Lee and Kiki Brown. Today we would like to spotlight one of our reviews on Apple Podcasts from Flavor Department titled Listen. Funny and insightful. The hosts have a great chemistry and very engaging. I'm learning and laughing. Thank you, Flavor Department. Thanks, Flavor Department.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

It's an honor.

SPEAKER_04 40:22

It is an honor.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

Our theme song is Faking It by Stuno AI. Credits for the film or show we reacted to are in the episode captain. Stay real, fakers.