A Sub is Born! | What "Secretary" Get's Right About BDSM

It all begins with a worm... stay with us.

Ariel and Morgan dive into one of the most iconic, campy, and controversial BDSM films of the early 2000s. 

From awkward, deeply unsexy vanilla sex to one of the most unexpectedly erotic “no contact” scenes we’ve ever seen, this episode breaks down why Secretary works, where it doesn’t, and why people are still arguing about it.

They get into it all:

•  The Peter problem: when she’s asking for domination and he’s giving… absolutely nothing 
•  The worm scene — anticipation, power, and why it’s somehow one of the sexiest moments in the film 
•  Why “no safeword, no conversation” is doing a LOT of heavy lifting 
•  The difference between kink as emotional connection vs kink as self-harm replacement

Plus: hand spasms, breath work that deserves awards, and a masterclass in how to build tension without actually touching.

For this one, we've got no notes. (Okay… some notes.)

Want to watch along? Our reaction covers the Peter scene: 01:08:00, the worm scene: 01:10:00, and the aftercare/gardening scene at 1:41:00. We cut around the clips, so it won’t sync perfectly, but you’ll absolutely get the point. 

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CREDITS — SECRETARY (2002)
Director: Steven Shainberg
Writers: Erin Cressida Wilson; Steven Shainberg
Source Material: Based on the short story by Mary Gaitskill
Producers: Andrew Fierberg; Amy Hobby; Steven Shainberg
Actors (featured in discussed scenes): Maggie Gyllenhaal; James Spader; Jeremy Davies
© 2002 Lionsgate / Slough Pond / Double A Films. All rights reserved.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

People liken this film the fifty shades of gray. They shouldn't. That's so rude. They should not. So rude. At the very least, this is consensual, and that one is is coerced, but whatever. Hi, I'm Arielle Lee Cohen.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Hi, I'm Morgan Smith.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

And we're the hosts of Faking It with Ariel and Morgan.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

We're two intimacy coordinators here to talk about the spicy scenes you see in film and TV.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

I'm on theme. I love it. Ugh, I should have been on theme. I was like, Reefer Madness is a good thing. That's awesome. I love that shirt though.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

I want it.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Thank you. One of my favorite musicals of all time, Reefer Madness. Wait, it's a musical? Girl, have you not seen the Reefer Madness musical? We have to watch it so badly that I almost want to add it to this episode right now. It's imperative. Alan Cummings, Kristen Bell, Christian Campbell, Amy Spanger. If you're familiar with Broadway from the 2000s, you know who Amy Spanger is. It is amazing. How have we not covered this? Girl, honestly, we should. We should cover this film. Are you a musical girly? I don't know if I knew this. Do I know this about you?

SPEAKER_00 1:17

I used to be a musical theater kid.

unknown 1:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

I didn't. Yes!

SPEAKER_00 1:22

But here's the here's the thing. Like there's a caveat.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Kim is such a musical girly. Oh my god. Yes. Maybe Kim should be on that episode with me.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

No, she should. Oh my god. She knows so much more about musicals than I do. I really didn't keep up with musicals as much as I should have.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

I was a musical theater kid. I wanted to be a musical theater actor. I moved to New York to work in musical theater. That was all I wanted to do. I'm just not a good dancer. And I actually saw the Ree for Madness that they put up like six months ago or so. Oh, okay. And I saw it twice because I'm me. I watched this movie so much as a kid that I knew like every line. I grew up with this. And then Christian Campbell was hanging out at the bar, and he's like the lead of the movie. And I was like, Hi, hello, how are you? I was like, I could not have been less cool about this explanation. Anyway. Yeah. Do you have a favorite musical?

SPEAKER_00 2:25

I have two. I haven't seen either of them, actually. I've just listened to the soundtracks. Because I haven't seen a musical in forever. But back when I was living in Connecticut, it was much easier for me to go see them, also because someone else was paying for it. So when I was a kid, probably the best musical I saw was like Rent. But as an adult, I love Book of Mormon. But I have a funny story about Rent, actually. Do yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

I want to hear it. Not only have I performed in that show, which was insane. My brother loved Rent growing up. And I loved what Eric loved. So I loved it too. And Eric and I would listen to the soundtrack constantly. And my grandmother decided to come visit us. And we were like, we're going to perform all of the songs for Rent for my grandmother. And I must have been six. He must have been like eight or nine. This is so cute. And we performed the songs. I was Angel with a giant boa, and I'd like come down the stairs and sing today for you tomorrow. And Eric and I would sing, light my candle like to each other. Oh, that's weird. That's weird. It was weird, but we didn't know what we were talking about. You were just lighting a candle. You were literally lighting a candle. My grandmother's horrified face. I think I shan't ever forget. It was very funny though.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Oh my God. I once got a speeding ticket because I was singing along to this soundtrack when I was driving back to school in Boston from visiting home. And I hit the high note. And as I hit the high note, I pressed the accelerator and just sped right through. As you do. And I passed right by this cop. He just drove up, pulled me over. And I was like, he doesn't care that I hit the high note.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Musical theater is the reason for your crimes.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

All of them.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Speaking of camp, today we are covering Secretary. One Gyllen Hall after another. It's Gyllen Hall Friday.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

You don't mean that this is one of your favorite movies ever?

SPEAKER_01 4:50

This movie, while we will get into the controversy of the film and some of the difficulty that the BDSM community has with it. I truly love it as like baby Ariel and her awakening, let's say.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

I came to this movie very late. I watched this for the first time, probably in like 2018. So not too, too long ago. Yeah, what is time? Anyways, it was just one of those movies that I had heard about. I'd always wanted to watch it. I love Maggie Gyllenhaal. I watched it and I was obsessed. It was another one of those movies where I was like, is this allowed?

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Like, is it allowed to be allowed in England?

SPEAKER_00 5:33

I loved it. I thought it was incredible. I loved the tone of it. I loved how bold it was. I can have guesses about the controversies, but I don't I don't know that much about like the discourse around the movie, honestly. So I'm really curious to learn more about it.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

And I'm here to tell you all about it. Secretary was released in 2002. We have Maggie Gyllenhall as Lee Holloway, Jeremy Davies as Peter, and James Spader as Mr. Gray. The director is Steven Shaneberg. Writers are Aaron Cressida Wilson, Mary Gateskill, and Steven Shaneberg. No, I see, they didn't exist at the time. Overall context of the film, Lee Holloway is exiting a mental institution for a self-harm attempt. As she is released, she finds herself back in her parents' home, figuring out what she wants to do with her life. She then is accepted as a secretary at a law office where it is just her and a lawyer, Mr. Gray, not Christian Gray, a better gray. I don't know why Mr. Gray is the baseline for all BDSM male characters, right? So in this first scene that we're going to look at, Mr. Gray and his secretary Lee have begun a dominant submissive relationship within the context of his law office. Lately, he has tried to avoid Lee to create some parameters and boundaries between the two of them. But Lee, sexually frustrated, turns to her mildly submissive sort of half-dating partner, Peter, to find some release. So our time code is at 108.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Okay, so Maggang Ellen Hall is on top of her guy friend. They are making out. They're on her bed. She moves his hand to her buttocks and leaves it there. He moves his hand back. She looks frustrated. She takes his hand again, puts it back on her buttocks, this time hard with a smack. And then he tentatively keeps his hand there and then moves it back up. And she gets frustrated and moves off of him. Now she's gotten off and is arching her back, offering up her buttocks for spanking. He looks confused. She's like perpendicular to him. We see her waiting. He's not doing anything. She looks over to him. He pulls out a condom, offers it up. She did not want anal penetration. This is annoying. He threw the condom away.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

But my clothes get to stay completely on, and I want the lights out.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

He moves very suddenly and quickly to turn all the lights out. And now he is on top of her. They're doing penetrative sex. She looks bored. He's making so many little noises. He's moving so awkwardly. She's just like looking around above her. He orgasms. She looks down at him. He stretches his hand, tenses it and stretches it a couple times and then rolls off of her. And she's bummed, like, no, you didn't hurt me. I liked it. I like seeing these two people trying to negotiate what they want. I like that she very clearly is like, and here are my parameters. They don't do what she wanted to do initially. And then they're just having vanilla penis vagina sex with him above her and her looking so bored, which is a classic, this is a bad sex scene.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

I love his hand gestures. They are just there's an art to his hand spasming in different ways. He likes points at her at one point, almost finger guns.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

It is so weird and so awkward. He's so in himself and not focused on her at all. He's having the jerkiest movements. His sounds are so quick and not sexy. It's great.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

She could have moved with him a little bit. Oh, but I think that the point still comes across pretty well. The pivotal moment is when she's bent over him perpendicularly, and you see her face twitching, like waiting, the waiting game for the spank. There is so much intensity in her face, and I'm like, Yes, this. And he just doesn't get it at all. He's just like completely not present in his body at all.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

He's so focused on penetration. At first, he thinks she wants to be anally penetrated, and she's like, No, I want to be spanked and I want to be dominated, and I don't even want to take my clothes off. And then, yeah, he just goes to penetration again. And it's a nice portrayal of what can feel like that divide sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

It's so interesting that you say that because, like, when I have seen this in the past, I've never thought of what Peter is not saying to be about anal sex. I think my perception and my reading of this is that she's bent over him and he's like, I don't, I don't know what you want me to do. So he's like, con like sex? Do you want to have sex? And she's like, uh, I mean, it's possible that he's like, Do you want anal sex since you're literally bent over me? Like, that does make sense to me. I've just never read it that way.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

It could really go either way because they do end up just having vaginal penetrative sex. But yeah, there was a part of me that was like, he's sorta got it. He's like, You want something with your butt.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

I'm here for the butt. Let's jump into this next scene. Very soon after her less than wonderful experience with Peter. Lee restarts the game with Mr. Gray by going to the next level and sending him a worm in the mail. Mr. Gray finds he can no longer stay away from her. So normally their game is that she messes up and then he spanks her. Time code is 110.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

He's looking through his mail, opens an envelope that has just a worm inside, puts it down, he looks shocked, like it's from her. So then he gets up very quickly. Now he's doing pull-ups to get rid of the sexual frustration that he feels. She can hear him outside at her secretary desk. Then he takes out a red Sharpie that was the only thing in the drawer. He draws a circle around the worm. Big circles all around this worm. Oh, so many circles. I have so many feelings about this worm. And then he calls for her. She's so excited. She smiles to herself and says, Finally, then she walks in, putting on a little bit of like a sexy, innocent face. Like, what? He's sitting at his desk looking like a principal. She's in trouble. She puts her hands on the desk and bends over right in front of the worm and stares at him. Oh, our buddy's back. Walking through the office, real casual. Now Gray walks around behind her. Our friend is walking up the hallway looking for her. She hears him. He's like, forget about him, do what I say. He has such awkward childlike movements. It's so interesting. It's so the opposite of how Gray moves, where he's like so silky, smooth, and steely. She seems to be pulling up her skirt. We're seeing her from the front. I can't see it, but that's what I assume she's doing by her hand movements. She looks exhilarated.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Got a little humiliation kink going on over here.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

A little humiliation kink. Now she's pulling down her pantyhose and panties. Like he said, now we're in a profile view where we can see it happening. She's slowly pulling it down while he watches. She puts her forearms back on the table. He takes his time. His hand is slowly opening up into a slap. He lines up with her, then goes to his zipper. Oh, it's not a spank. He's a liar. It's implied he's covering his penis, and now he's moving closer to her. He penetrates her. Or no, he's not penetrating her, but he's making noises. Something's happening behind her. She's confused. He's stimulating himself. Whoa, another twist. His brow is furrowing. His breathing is getting heavier. He's she doesn't turn around to look. He climaxes on her. We don't see it. We just see him move his hand on top of her. And then he bends over, has some shakes, and relaxes. And she looks humiliated but also relieved. Happy humiliation. He walks around the desk and she watches him with so much love. He sits, he hands her a folder, pulls up her underwear and pantyhose a little. And she stands there looking at him. With the liquid all over her back.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

It does continue the next moment. She goes and she masturbates in the bathroom stall for a moment.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Oh yeah, I remember that. Fun scene. This movie does a really good job of showing the anticipation of her waiting for his next command, his next move, that game between the two of them. I love how Maggie Gyllenhall shows the combination of joy and humiliation at the same time because that's really hard to portray and could have easily just felt like she's just being humiliated and this is awful. This is what she wanted.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

There's no physical contact at all in this scene, and yet it's wildly sexual, wildly power dynamic focused. Ah, chef's kiss, so good. So well done. And can we talk about James Spader's breath when he's orgasming? So good. Mind-blowing. So good. Oh my god, just all these little like and then like it's perfect.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

I really appreciated his breaths and his body aftershocks after he orgasmed. Because I feel like a lot of actors, when they're portraying orgasm, they'll focus a lot on the build and then reach and climb, and then they're like done and tired, and that's it. And I like that he had a bit of a come down.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Yeah, he's still out of breath by the time he's like, send him what's his name, you know? And that look of awe and worship that he gives her after saying, send him what's his name, and he looks up at her like, oh my God, I love it. Oh, I love it so much.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Yes, so good.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

The third scene that I wanted to show is the biggest scene. It's the most talked-about scene on YouTube, it's the most replayed scene. And the context is after committing herself to a long, long BDSM scene to get his attention, Mr. Gray provides aftercare. And this is the first time she's been invited into his home. It's the first time that he has admitted that he wants her back because he's constantly pushing, pushing, pushing her away. He's afraid of his own feelings, afraid of his own needs in a way that she's not. We are at 141. And she was wearing a wedding dress because she was gonna get married to Peter because she was sort of pushed into it and didn't know what else to do. And then she left her wedding to be with him instead.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

She is lying on a green shag carpet. He's running a bath for her. He's undoing the many buttons on her wedding dress as she looks back at him, washing her hair while she's in the bathtub. She's embracing it. He's got all the suds going and is doing lots of like long, slow strokes. This is a huge bathroom that has like glassware in it. Okay, now he's pouring water on her head. And now she's standing in the bathtub. And he's behind her and is drying her off with a towel. She's laying back naked and is looking at him very lovingly. Self-harm scars all over her body. He's caressing them. There's a really gorgeous light on her as she lays on a bed, surrounded by curtains and fingers intertwined with hers. Blows out the candle and the light's gone. He's slowly kissing down her body. She's smiling. She's blissed out, still laying still. Now he's up at her chest.

unknown 18:23

Des Moines Isle.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Never has Des Moines been as sexy. And now they're kissing. She finally found out something about him. She puts her hand on his face.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

This is the first time that they've actually made lip-to-lip contact in the whole film. It's like this last moment, really. Mr. Gray, Edward Gray, is really into plants and like growing things in the room. This is like his plant room. There's all of these little bottles full of propagated plants, and there's watering things and then a plant room with a bathtub? Yeah, I don't know, man. Yeah, sure. I mean, it can be a bathroomslash propagation room.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

It's a big room. It's not just big for a bathroom. It's a large room that has a copper four-claw, fancy old school tub surrounded by all these bottles and beakers and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

And then the middle section, they're on a platform of grass.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

That's I couldn't tell if it was grass or if it was a textured blanket.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

I think the point they're trying to make is that she's like blossomed into this flower and he has nurtured it into being or whatever. I see it and I get it. I do think the room is a little confusing.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

I think there's a way they could have gotten that metaphor across differently. I mean, it's a campy film. It's a little surreal, like, so I forgive it. It's giving kinky Eve. Kinky Eve. A movie I would watch. So initial thoughts. She's done a lot of BDSM with him in the past that, if I remember correctly, didn't have aftercare afterwards. Yeah, this is the first time there has been no aftercare. So to me, it kind of feels like this is the aftercare for all of it, not just the previous scene. I guess you can justify the length of the aftercare scene because it's aftercare for the whole movie. I don't think it necessarily has to be as long as it is, but I can see the argument for it.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

After the intensity, complexity, just the sheer intrigue of the previous scenes, this one always kind of felt anticlimactic, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

I think what ending on this aftercare scene does is it kind of gives into the trope that real love is not kink. Yeah. Because he doesn't really open up to her. He doesn't really show his love for her until he does all of this non-kinky stuff. And it's almost like the kink was just the means to this end, as opposed to this is how we express our love and explore our love and trust for each other through kink. Do you know what I mean? I kind of would have loved it if the end wasn't was on a kink scene.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Well, they do another kink scene after this, um, where they get married and then she's tied to a tree while they have simulated sex. Awesome. So could also be read as the opposite, whereas there is a stereotype that BDSM people can only find satisfaction in BDSM moments, whereas, you know, they can find pleasure and satisfaction in this soft tenderness feeling, as well as these sort of spanking moments and and various other things from earlier. But I think both can be implied.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

But if they end on a kink scene, then I feel like this is like a pro kink movie.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

It is a pro kink movie, and we're gonna get it might as well get into this now, actually. Is this a pro kink movie? Because it starts. Off with Lee Holloway exiting a mental institution for self-harm reasons. And it goes into like her past and her family and how she is like a little damaged. And that the only way that she can experience a pleasure similar to that of self-harming is by replacing it with a different kind of humiliation and pain. Because it can't ever just be this is something your body enjoys, so you enjoy it too. It's always like there's something wrong with you. And that's why you like this. But on the other hand, a lot of BDSM communities really praise this movie because it focuses on the emotional connection rather than the aesthetic of kink like Fifty Shades of Grey does. And the film is considered more of like a romantic fantasy than a strictly realistic depiction of safe, sane, and consensual BDSM practices.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

It has been a while since I watched the movie, but I do agree there is a lot of emphasis on their emotional connection, which I think is great. It would have been nice if it didn't have the premise of kink as a way of you exploring this old wound in yourself.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

And I mean, there's even a point where she has this box of self-harm supplies. Yeah. And he looks at her and he's like, You're not going to do this anymore. That's over. And then she throws away the box into the river. And that's really a momentous experience, I'm sure. Immediately then she falls into this spanking ritual with him. It can read like trading oneself harm for another. One of the difficulties I have they never talk about what the scenes are, or we never see it as an audience. They never talk about safe words, they never talk about parameters or what one person is interested in and the other one isn't. The only thing that happens is she goes into his room wanting something, he starts off with her and she enjoys it by accident. Like, oh, she does enjoy this.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

That's great. It's a mistake that happens with so many portrayals of sex in general, is we have this idea that it can only be good if it's intuitive. I know we talked about this a bit with Brooke in our book Smart episode. I think especially for kink, there's a lot of assumption that you can just start taking on the dominant role and your sub just has to do whatever you say because you're the dom now and they're the sub. When in reality, if you're practicing safe kink, you do have those conversations up front and it doesn't take away from the sexiness of the scene. There's an idea that like it somehow ruins it or it kills the vibe, and you shouldn't have to talk about it. I'm like, actually, it enhances it because you know how much this person is connected to you and is like really present with you and listening to you and willing to give you what you want within their own boundaries. And that's part of what fosters the emotional connection is that level of trust and openness.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Yes. BDSM requires conversation, not just before, but part of aftercare is going over the scene. How did it go? What did you like? What did you not like? What do you want more or less of? Taking care of the other person, both sub taking care of Dom and Dom taking care of sub or whatever the dynamic is. It's really important to have those conversations. Secretary broke the mold. It's one of the first mainstream films to explore BDSM as a central plot point and to humanize what was once thought of as a sexual taboo. This is stated by Angie Roundtree, who's the founder and director of the ethical porn site shh.com, which is three S's and one H. She also said Secretary validated the authentic desires and choices of its characters as simply another variation on human sexuality and depicted a way for kink to be part of an otherwise quote conventional relationship. It opened the door for people to begin discussing how kink play can lead to a greater intimacy in a relationship, regardless of what that relationship looks like.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

It reminds me of a lot of times after you have a simulated sex scene, whether it involved kink or not, actors can experience similar effects, like having a huge drop. I know, for example, after having a non-consensual scene between a male and female actor, a lot of people think like intimacy coordinators are just there for women. And we don't need to be there for the guy. We're there for both people because both people are having experiences. They can bring up all kinds of emotions, just the adrenaline rush of going through that scene and having the drop down afterwards can bring a lot. The person might be worrying, like, oh, I was doing a scene where it looks like I was causing harm. Did I actually cause harm? And having that reassurance.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

And Morgan, can you talk to us a little bit about what derolling is?

SPEAKER_00 26:58

D-rolling is a technique that intimacy coordinators offer to actors. Actors may also have it in their own practice already, where you take off the character that you were just portraying. It can be something as simple as taking off a piece of wardrobe. When I take it off, I'm just very intentional about when I take this off, I'm removing the character and I am becoming myself. It can be something you do by yourself. It can be something that you do with your scene partner or scene partners. When I've done it with scene partners, it can be breath work that they do together. Sometimes they're verbally saying things to each other. It can also help with scenes where two characters were loving each other and we want to separate that because in real life we're not in love, even though our body is feeling all the things that we feel when we're in love and is letting off all the hormones that get let off when you're in love. And that can get confusing. Maybe you have feelings for this person, but that person is different from the character they're playing, and you're different from the character you're playing.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

It's after aftercare.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Can you talk more about aftercare and specifically why you need to do aftercare both for the Dom and the sub? Because I think some people might be under the impression that the sub is the only one who needs aftercare.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Beautiful. Yes. I would love to talk about aftercare. Aftercare can look like many different things, but it is the parameters in which you come down from a scene. Sometimes that looks like cuttos or snuggies. Uh, sometimes that looks like blankets or chocolate or tea or a conversation. One thing that can happen to both dominance and submissives is you can enter what is called subspace or dom space, where you kind of get lost in the character and lost in the scene, lost in sensation and hyper stimulation. You're not feeling like you're in your body, you're basically dissociating in a certain way. There is a similar back end to subspace, dom space that is called subdrop or dom drop. Where after a scene of so much stimulation and intensity, exhilaration in those moments, hopefully, it can lead to depression, anxiety, it can lead to triggering of PTSD symptoms. Your body has had all of this adrenaline, and as the adrenaline leaves your body, you might be left with a lot of unresolved feelings. And that can occur for both sub and Dom, because Dom has now experienced what they may perceive as harming another person. And if they don't get their care, then they might feel like I'm a terrible person. I hurt another person. Why am I like this? Why do I want to do this? Et cetera, et cetera. So it is imperative that both people on both sides of the spectrum or any sides of the spectrum, because there's different kinds of dynamics within BDSM, come together on the same plane, discuss what happened, and verbally confirm that what you did is okay and I am okay with it. And then the other person responds in turn, or if it didn't go okay, we've communicated how we feel about it, and we know moving forward that it's not gonna be that way. And that's imperative for mental health and mental well-being.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Yeah, I I really appreciate it. That's such a good and thorough explanation. I think very thorough. Very thorough. No, no, no. But I appreciate, I really appreciate your thoroughness. It's really going from a high to your body, like naturally balancing out with a low. And on that note, shall we spice scale? Let's spice scale. Welcome to the spice scale, our not so scientific way of rating intimacy scenes based on consent and power dynamics, technical craft and coordination excellence, and heat factor. Each category gets a score from one to five, with five being the highest. Then we add it all up to give the scene a final letter grade. Consent and power dynamics, how this scene depicts consent and power in the story, and if known, behind the scenes. This scene is so clear about the power dynamics. It's an essential part of the plot. So, power dynamics, I would give it a five. The consent part is lower. They never have a conversation about what they're going to do. They don't have a safe word. So if somebody wants to opt out, they can opt out. It's all implied. That being said, it doesn't seem like anyone is doing something they don't want to do. But it's that lack of conversation and offering it out that keeps me from giving it a five on consent.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

I think in the middle scene, what's interesting is she is the one who goads him into creating that scene by sending the worm in under the parameters that she understands. He will be in control of the situation and he's going to do something to her, most likely spanking in some place. There have been other things that have happened, so presumably they've had some level of conversations about things. But she steps into the room and immediately puts her hands on the desk and submits to him immediately. Does she understand all the parameters? No. Maybe we give it all a four. Yeah. Let's move on to technical craft and coordination excellence, the staging film coverage, modesty protection, choreography, and overall execution of the scene.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

I love it. The first two scenes, especially, were really excellent in the execution of the scenes. The first one, I love the specificity. Like we were talking about Peter's hand movements. Oh my god! Yeah, how spastic they are. I feel like wild. The attention to breath work in this movie is so specific. The way people's bodies move is so like the contrast between Peter and Gray is so clear. Gray feels like such an adult, such an authority figure. And Peter feels like a little boy and unsure and confused, and she really wants someone who will take charge. In terms of the coordination, I really appreciated it in this second scene where the filmmaker is teasing the audience the same way Gray is teasing Lee about what he's going to do, because we're just seeing from the front him standing behind, but her head and upper body is blocking him. So at first, we don't see that he's stimulating himself. We assume that he's penetrating her, even though he keeps saying that he's not going to. It looks like he's gonna go spank her and like his hand is in a slapping movement. It goes in front of her buttocks and then goes to his belt and zipper and undoes it. And I'm like, ah, that's so good. I love it. They brought us into the scene.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

There's no physical contact there. It's beautiful. The handwork in that other scene, perfect. Even just when she pulls down the pantyhose and pulls up the skirt, I see nothing. I see side nudity, nothing else. And the story is perfectly clear. We see no modesty garments, she's masking his pelvis. Even that first scene, like with Peter, it is a perfectly fine simulated sex scene. But what puts it over the edge, mine is like pacing, the physicality, insanity, so many specific character choices, and I'm so happy about it. So for me, it's a five.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Also, Maggie Gyllenhaal, you think about the contrast in her facial reactions between those two scenes and her stillness on that desk is so exquisite. She doesn't like slightly turn her head to see what's going on at all. She stares straightforward. It's so good. Love, love, love, love. Heat factor, the level of erotic charge or sexual tension in the scene. I mean, this whole movie. Yeah, it's pretty much all erotic charge. Obviously, the first scene is meant to not have a lot of erotic charge for humor's sake, but that's the story they wanted to tell, and they told it really effectively. It was a really different enough take on a bad sex scene. Obviously, the sexual tension in the second scene was like, oof, I don't know, 11 wild.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

And what I also just love about that second scene in particular, I love if we're barely talking about the third scene, like it doesn't even I know, but I know I feel like everything that's needed to be said has been said about that scene already. Anyway, the second scene was fascinating because even if it's not your kink, you can feel the erotic charge of those characters experiencing this moment. Like you would get this scenario for them. And I think that's so wildly successful to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

It's so interesting that we did Brokeback Mountain and Secretary Today, because they're both movies that are about what was considered at the time like more niche romance stories, right? But it's the specificity with which they tell those stories that actually makes it so compelling. And even if you've never been a gay cowboy, even if you've never been a kinky secretary, even if you're not into a humiliation kink, you can feel what the characters are feeling. Like you're fully on board with them, and that's really effective storytelling.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

All right. Well, five. Five baby, which leaves us with, of course, an A. Woo!

SPEAKER_00 36:46

All right, Ariel. As you know, whenever we get an A C now, we go into our next segment. Oh my god. Okay, um, we're gonna do just the second scene.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

I'm gonna ruin it. Ruin it for me. I'm gonna ruin it. Okay, okay. Go way 50 shades. Leave the specificity behind. She goes over the desk, he grabs her by the neck and pulls her up so her back is to his front. He like whispers something dumb in her ear, pushes her back down to the desk. I think kill the line. I'm not gonna fuck you. Don't give her any information. No communication, no communication at all. And then have him slow motion, manually stimulating himself, focus on her buttocks, and then focus on his eyes and like buttocks, give a real male gaze there. And then at the end, I don't know, maybe she gives him oral sex at the end. Just like make it unnecessarily gratuitous.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

I like her performing oral sex on him. I also think to go along with where you were going, is we're going from butt face, butt face, and then we end and we see his ejaculate on her flesh.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

On her buttocks. Another buttocks. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

Oh, and he wipes stuff off the desk.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Yeah, he like pushes all the shit off the desk before she gets into this.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Smooshing her face into the worm, and then it's like on her.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

Yeah, and then as she lifts her face off the desk, it's like stuck to her face all smooth.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

More moaning. More moans, less of a buildup, more grunting. I don't just want moans, I want grunts. I want like deep, manly macho grunts. And then when he's finished, he makes an ugly sound. She moans, even though nothing is happening to facilitate this.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

She just moans. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

She's just there's no contact whatsoever, but she's making all these, she's moving on the desk. She's looking back to see what he's doing.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Yeah. And then she smiles and winks at him.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

I mean, yeah. Yeah. Totally like breaks character, not committed to the bed at all.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

That guy's in the other room while this is happening in scene two. He maybe just isn't a big moaning guy. But I would love to ruin it by saying they make a shit ton of noise. And then we see the guy in the other room being like, what's going on in there?

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Yeah. Also, ooh, another way to ruin that scene is he opens a desk drawer and it's just filled with floggers. And he opens another desk drawer and it has like 50 different kinds of whips in it. And he opens his closet, and there's um, what's it called, a King Arthur Cross or something? Like all of a sudden his office, King Arthur's cross. I love it. You get knighted at the end. I'm not the BDSM expert. St. Andrew. Okay. I knew it was like some important a-name person. St.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Andrews.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Saint Andrew's cross on the back of the door of his closet, and he flips a switch under his desk, and like these ropes come down from the ceiling.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

Oh my god, yes, and a disco ball.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

Because what happens? And a disco ball. Because you could only do cake if you are willing to invest $50,000 in the most expensive accrue Tremont. And uh, you have to have your own dungeon.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's like his desk opens and suddenly there are stairs.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

Oh my god, yes. Meanwhile, that guy's like up in the waiting room, like, when am I gonna get into this movie? No, oh my god, yeah. We ruined it.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

Fantastic. We've kind of talked about why this matters in general. Like there's, you know, there's a lot of controversy about it, but generally speaking, people remember it fondly to a degree. It may not be the perfect commitment to what BDSM is like and should be, but it is a palatable version for the masses while really breathing into the reality of what that might look like. People liken this film the Fifty Shades of Grey. They shouldn't.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

That's so rude.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

They should not. So rude. At the very least, this is consensual and that one is is coerced, but whatever. We're here. Well, thanks so much for listening to Faking It. This episode's research and context was done by me, Ariel.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every other hump day, Wednesday.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

If this was good for you, the best way to support our show is to follow the podcast and leave a quick rating or review. It takes less than 30 seconds and it really helps us.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

We have this review from Erica. This podcast has already taught me so much about the importance of intimacy coordinators. Allergies? Who would have thought of that? Can you imagine an actor having an allergic reaction after a kiss scene so scary? Thank you, Erica.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

Thanks, Erica.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

Tell one friend who loves spicy movie secrets about us. Find us on social media at faking at the pod.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

And you know you want to get involved. So you just head right on down to patreon.com slash faking at the pod. For just one dollar, you can request scenes for us to break down. For $10, you get bonus content and never before seen footage. And for $5, you get a shout-out like these listeners. Thank you, as always, Lee and Kiki Brown.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

This episode was produced by Ariel Lee Cohen, social media and branding by Morgan Smith. Our theme song is faking it by Mike Getz. Credits for the film or show we reacted to are in the episode caption. Stay real fakers! Stay real fakers! Stay real fakers. Very elvis of you. What if we made that the theme?

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Honestly, let's do it. Let's talk new themes. We just got this one. We got another one.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Yeah. Yeah. Let's already do a new one. Every month. Every month a new theme is gone on the floor.