“Pose” Co-Creator Steven Canals | Directing Intimacy and Queer Love

Steven Canals, co-creator of Pose, breaks down the historic Pray Tell and Ricky love scene from Season 2, Episode 8, "Revelations." Two intimacy coordinators discuss.

This Pride Month, we're joined by Emmy-nominated and Peabody Award-winning creator and showrunner Steven Canals to break down one of the most intimate scenes from POSE.

Together, we discuss how the scene evolved from script to screen, the challenges of directing intimacy before the role of intimacy coordinator was fully established, and why portraying queer love with tenderness, not spectacle, mattered so deeply.

In this episode:

• The collaborative process between director, actors, and intimacy coordinator
• Balancing choreography with actor freedom and authenticity
• How intimacy coordination has evolved over the past decade
• Why queer intimacy deserves the same emotional depth as any love story
• The importance of consent, vulnerability, and trust in intimate storytelling

A filmmaker's lens on queer intimacy

Plus, Steven shares behind-the-scenes stories from making POSE, reflects on the show's lasting cultural impact, and tells us exactly how he'd ruin his own scene if he had to.

Scene discussed: POSE Season 2, Episode 8 ("Revelations"), approximately 3:38–5:47.

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Credits

POSE (Season 2, Episode 8: "Revelations") | Creators: Steven Canals, Brad Falchuk, Ryan Murphy | FX (2019)

Hashtags

#PoseFX #StevenCanals #QueerIntimacy #IntimacyCoordinator #TVBreakdown

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

It's less about connection and it's just the spectacle of like we're seeing two men have sex.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

It would be spit in the hand.

SPEAKER_05 0:06

Spit in a hand.

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Which is gonna be my new thing now.

SPEAKER_03 0:11

It's gonna be my new thing.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

When I see a gay sex scene that I don't like from now, I'm just gonna be like, it's very spit in the hand. That's gonna be my new thing.

SPEAKER_04 0:18

Yes!

SPEAKER_05 0:19

Oh my god, let's make it a thing.

SPEAKER_04 0:22

Hi, I'm Ariel Lee Cohen.

SPEAKER_05 0:24

Hey, I'm Morgan Smith.

SPEAKER_04 0:26

And we are the hosts of Faking It with Ariel and Morgan.

SPEAKER_05 0:30

We're two intimacy coordinators here to talk about the spicy scenes you see in film and TV.

SPEAKER_04 0:35

And today we're so excited to have our guest, Steven Canals. Steven Canals is the Emmy-nominated and Peabody Award-winning co-creator, executive producer, writer, and director of FX's Pose 2018-21, which featured the largest transgender cast in TV history.

SPEAKER_05 0:54

Steven's work on Pose received two AFI Awards for TV Program of the Year, three Glad Media Awards for Outstanding Drama Series, plus Golden Globe and Critics Choice Award nominations for Best Drama Series, among other accolades. Steven also received nominations from the Writers Guild Awards for Outstanding News Series and the Imogen Awards for Best Director Television.

SPEAKER_04 1:17

A groundbreaking, queer, Afro-Puerto Rican creator, Steven has been named to the Hollywood Reporters' 50 most powerful LGBTQ players in Hollywood, and one of Hollywood's 50 most powerful TV showrunners. Steven is currently directing episodically while developing new projects that center the stories of historically underrepresented communities under his story Av Productions banner. Steven, welcome to faking it.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Hello, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_05 1:44

Thanks for being here. So this is our first Pride Month doing the show. And when we were deciding what projects to do, immediately we both were like, we have to talk about pose.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

I love that.

SPEAKER_05 1:57

We're so thrilled to have you. So we'd love to just dive in, learn a little bit about your backstory before we get into the scenes. What initially inspired you to write pose?

SPEAKER_00 2:06

So my inspiration for pose roots back to a beautiful documentary that I saw when I was in my early 20s called Paris is Burning, directed by Jenny Livingston. And it highlighted the New York underground ballroom community, you know, filled with all these beautiful black and Latin, queer and trans people. And I was in my early 20s, I was just stepping into my queerness at the time, had no idea that this community existed in Harlem, just around the corner from where both my parents grew up. And I just remember thinking the first time I saw the doc, that would make a really great television show. And 10 years later, I'm in LA and I'm in a writing workshop and I'm writing a drama pilot. And I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna dust off that idea from a decade ago. And so the inspiration was to just highlight a community that had never really been given shine, at least not on television. I grew up in the Bronx in the 80s, and any of your listeners who are familiar with New York of the 80s, it really was a war zone. It was not an easy place to be. And we were contending with so much politically. Obviously, we had Reagan as president, which was not great for queer and trans people. Yeah, not great for women, not great for folks of color. So we also were contending with both the beginnings of the HIV AIDS epidemic and then the crack epidemic. And so my community was being ravaged. And I think that was the experience for a lot of folks in New York at that time. And so to watch a documentary that had so much joy and love in the face of all of this turmoil for me just felt so incredibly radical. And it completely reframed my understanding of that period. I had a lot of love at home and was fortunate to be really shielded and protected by my family. But I often find myself feeling conflicted about that because I think about the realities of so many folks who didn't have that kind of support. And so here I'm watching this beautiful documentary about folks who were kicked out of their homes because they were gay or because they were trans and created their own families. And then beyond creating those families, they then go off and they start competing and found so much love and so much joy. And I don't know, there's so much I think we all can learn about ourselves and about how to move through the world with grace from the individuals who are part of the ballroom community and specifically from Paris' Burning. And I feel that way about Pose as a show as well. Once you kind of get past the glitz and the glamour and like what's on the surface, and you really get to the heart of the matter, I think what makes it so beautiful and special is those interpersonal relationships and the way that they loved and supported one another.

SPEAKER_05 5:03

And I also read that in the process of making this show, you faced quite a bit of rejection at first.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Oh, so much rejection. That was hard. I mean, completing the first draft of the pilot, which was in 2014, up to the point that I sold it to FX and Ryan Murphy was two and a half years. And so that was in the grand scheme of things, like when I think about living in LA, when I look at the landscape now, when I get to talk to young folks who are looking to break in, I recognize that that was actually pretty fast. But in real time, you know, like that's quick. You know, two and a half years is not that long. But in real time, being the person who's sitting across from executives being told no, it is hard. What sustained me through that period, I always think about my grandmother. She's always the person who comes to me in moments when I'm feeling exhausted. It is not a right, it is a privilege for me to be able to be here with you all, for example, on your podcast talking about my work. It's not a right, it's a privilege to be able to go into a room and to pitch a show idea to individuals, right? I'm not owed that. And so every time I heard no, it didn't feel great because when you're writing from a place that is personal, if someone says no, the subtext to that isn't just we don't value the work, but it's also we don't value you, we don't value your experience. And that's hard. And the other side of that is gosh, how lucky am I to be able to go in and pitch an idea at all? You know, that I've been able to work to get to the place where I can actually sit across from someone and say, hey, I have an idea, whether they like it or not. And so while it was difficult, for me I felt like I have to persist and being very, very wordy. So apologies for talking so much.

SPEAKER_04 6:58

No, please keep talking forever.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

I love you're so compelling.

SPEAKER_04 7:04

I'm into it. I'm like leaning forward, my whole body language is like, yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Well, prepare for my TED talk. No, no. Um but I think specifically because we're in June and it's Pride Month, for me, having written as a queer person a story that centers queer and trans people, the stakes feel really high, right? It's like when you look at where we were back in, gosh, this was 2016 when I sold posts. This was a decade ago. And then you look at where we are now in 2026, and it doesn't feel like there's been that much progress. You know, it's like, sure, there's more visibility, but that hasn't necessarily changed day-to-day how Korean trans people are living. Like we're still under attack and we still have to fight for our rights. We're still fighting to take up space and to be seen a decade later. It's like we're rolling back protections on women as well, people of color, specifically black people in our country, are also constantly under attack and being killed. And so when you think about all of that, it's like the stakes for the work I was doing. I'm sure you probably feel the same way about not just your work on set as intimacy coordinators, but also even now talking about it on your podcast. It is important for us to center these voices and for these stories to be heard. And so saying no or taking a beat to say, oh, I'm too tired, I can't do this anymore, it just never felt like an option.

SPEAKER_05 8:28

I'm just feeling a lot of gratitude today to have you here to talk about it. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

Likewise.

SPEAKER_05 8:34

Before we get into the specific scenes, as you were creating the show, were there conversations that you were having in the writer's room about how you wanted to approach the intimacy in the show and the romantic stories that you were going to tell?

SPEAKER_00 8:48

That's a great question. In terms of visually what we were seeing on screen, to be perfectly honest, no. Okay. You know, like we really weren't. Obviously, in a writer's room, you're talking about characters' journeys and their experiences, and then, you know, what are the best narrative ways to express whatever it is that's happening for them, both throughout a season and then specifically in an episode and then in a scene. It's interesting because when I think about it now, I mean, in the third episode of season one, so that's the first time that the characters Angel and Stan, played by India Moore and Evan Peters, have sex, and there were conversations with the director about what that would look like, and obviously what the actors would be comfortable with. But in terms of like the actual writing of it within our writer's room discussing what we wanted it to look like, no, I mean, with that scene in particular, I know that wasn't one of the scenes we were gonna talk about today, but with that scene in particular, the only thing I remember being a real sticking point in our writer's room visually was that we wanted to ensure that there was a condom scene. That if we didn't show condoms at some point prior to them making love, that the audience may assume that they were having sex unprotected. And because our show takes place in the 80s, in the height of the HIV AIDS epidemic, and because Angel on our show in the first season was a sex worker, we just felt like there's so many other implications for what that would mean. And so that felt really important. But in terms of the visual, like this is specifically like what a shot needs to look like, that we never talked about and we never expressed it on the page either, to be clear.

SPEAKER_04 10:30

I feel like it's very common to not think about the intimacy until you're like in the shot by shot. Here's the strip board, and what actually are we shooting today? Um that makes perfect sense to me. Right.

SPEAKER_05 10:41

Maybe we should just get into the scenes. I think we should just get into it. I love it. Let's get into it. We're going to be talking about the show Pose, obviously, created by Stephen Kennells, also Brad Falchuk and Ryan Murphy. It ran from 2018 to 2021 on FX. The scene that we're going to discuss is from season two, episode eight. For those following along, the time code is gonna be 338 to 547. We're gonna see Dylan Burnside as Ricky Wintour and Billy Porter as Praetel. This episode was written and the directorial debut of Stephen Canals and also earned you an Emmy nomination. Woo! In the season, we are in the ballroom scene in New York in 1990. After having an affair on tour as a dancer, Ricky discovers he contracted HIV. Overwhelmed by the diagnosis and unsure who to trust, he turns to the MC of the ballroom community, Prey Tell. During their conversation, Preytel reveals that he has been secretly living with HIV. As it gets late, Ricky asks if he can stay the night. Praytel agrees and sends them to sleep on the couch. We start the scene while Prey Tell sleeps.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

The thing that I I love about this scene, and I was very aware of it when we were breaking the episode, is that there is an age difference between Preytel and Ricky as characters. And so that I was really interested in because particularly queer and trans people, we don't really ever get to see our stories told. And then when we do, it's like kind of the same version. It's like how many times can we be coming out? How many times are we stepping into our you know identities for the millionth time? And so I love the fact that we're seeing some more of the like specifics of what it means to be queer. But in this case, I love that it was like intergenerational, that it was two black men, and they both are HIV positive. Those are not stories or experiences that we tend to see centered. So that I was really excited about. I just have to say I have not seen this in forever. It's been a very long time. It's been a couple of years.

SPEAKER_04 12:51

How does it feel for you going back in?

SPEAKER_00 12:54

I'm worried about how I'm gonna judge it because this was the first time I've directed episodically, and I'm gonna try to turn that part of my brain off so I'm not looking at shots thinking like, oh, why did you do that?

SPEAKER_05 13:06

We love it, so. And we love it, so we're on board.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

This scene, by the way, was shot during the day.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Oh wow. Oh, you were right, that couch is lumpy.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

You're confused. I also want to point out Delon and Billy in real life were very close. Uh-huh. Oh, I love that. And so there was some there was definitely some discomfort on their parts around the scene. They were both like, oof. But I think that they brought that energy into the scene. I think you can feel some of that in the beginning, some of that tension.

SPEAKER_05 13:46

Well, it makes sense because Praetel is kind of a mentor to so many people in the ballroom community, so it translates really well to the characters on both their ends, right? Praetel is hesitant because this is his mentee and Delan is yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

This is so nice.

SPEAKER_04 14:07

Oh. I love we're all just like enamored of the case.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

I love this last shot. I will say this last shot is like beautiful. That was very important to me. Like when we were filming that, was I was like, I just want to end on this moment where the we see the two of them wrapped up in each other. Whenever sex is discussed related to LGBT people, it's always in this way that feels really reductive and isn't intimate. It's like only straight people get to make love, right? Yeah. Can I curse?

SPEAKER_05 14:46

Oh, yeah, you can say whatever.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Um, you know, like only straight people get to make love, LGBT people fuck. That felt really important to me with this moment, with this scene, is that we see intimacy and love between Pratel and Ricky, and it isn't just sex for the sake of sex, and that it doesn't have just this like animalistic, which is great and fine and also important, but that for them in this moment it was about really being connected.

SPEAKER_05 15:14

I love that with this scene, you took the opportunity to show so many moments of them being together. I read that originally in the script, they were just supposed to kiss and it was gonna cut away. Is that true?

SPEAKER_00 15:30

No, it was that wasn't how we wrote it. How did I exactly write it? Hold on. If you give me a minute, I can actually read to you.

SPEAKER_05 15:37

Oh my god, yes. Heck yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

What I wrote versus what I filmed. So the scene ends with Ricky kisses Prey, he takes Prey's hand and moves it to his crotch. Ricky says, that ain't confused. Prey resists, then gives in. Ricky feels too good, and Prey has been too lonely. Off their passion, we dissolve to title sequence.

SPEAKER_04 16:01

So, how did you get from that to what we just watched? Like, what was the process like between you and the actors and deciding how much to show given the nature of the scene?

SPEAKER_00 16:13

That is a great question. And I normally have such a wonderful memory, and so I'm going deep, deep, deep into the recesses to pull all this out because the the truth of it is so the actual filming of the scene, like what we just saw, the choreography of that, I figured out on the day. That is the truth. My understanding of using intimacy coordinators on pose, it really came down to do the actors feel like they need it. I'm not sure if that's something that now, 10 years later, because I've worked with intimacy coordinators on four other shows since then. And as a guest director, I want to say three of those times, it was like non-optional. It was just like, hey, we have an intimacy coordinator, you're gonna work with them. And then one of those times, it was like the actors were like, we don't really need one, like we're good. And so I was like, Well, we can still have one, but you know, the actors felt like they didn't need it. This was a situation where for sure we were like, let's have an intimacy coordinator, and it was new for everybody, certainly for me as a writer and a director, and also as a producer. It was like, I was still figuring out how do we work together in addition to you doing your job. And I remember that my concern in the beginning had everything to do with I just don't want her to be directing the scene for me, right? And so in the beginning, it really was me figuring out like, how do we operate? Like, how do we work together? I'm glad I had this experience with this particular scene on post because it really informed how I work with intimacy coordinators moving forward, was that the actors felt really comfortable with me. And I think part of it is if any other director had worked on this episode in that scene, I don't know that Delon and Billy would have felt this way. But because I also created the show because we had that kind of relationship, I think they felt really comfortable coming to me to talk about this moment, this scene, and what we sort of collectively wanted to express through it. It'd be interesting to hear like how the intimacy coordinator who worked on that scene, what her experience was. My understanding was they felt more comfortable just coming directly to me. Truth be told, that's typically been the experience I've had, depending on the nature of the scene, right? So I've worked at times where the intimacy coordinator, and they've always been lovely and present. And I actually am really grateful to have intimacy coordinator on set because I've actually learned a lot about directing the actor. And so another lesson was learning how to put ego aside. Yes, I'm directing this episode, yes, I'm directing the scene. But what an IC has offered to me are ways to talk to the actors and giving them tools so that they feel comfortable. So even if it's like I'd prefer to only talk to you, Steven, I don't necessarily want to talk about this, the intimacy in this scene with Morgan and Ariel. I know that I can come to you and say, hey, the kissing's not as passionate as it needs to be. Or, you know, I'm wondering like, what are ways for them to like touch each other where they're not making each other feel uncomfortable? And those are places where my ICs have always come in and given tools and resources that I'm like, oh, I haven't even thought about that. Like, that's great. Thank you. So in this scene, though, and again, I think it was because of the newness of it. I'm giving you all the background tea now, but that we, when I met with Tanise, who was the the intimacy coordinator for this scene, the first time we met, she was great about asking me all the right questions. Like, what is it that we're seeing from the beginning to the end? Right? Like, what's happening? And I was like, well, they're in bed, they're talking, they start to kiss, and then they have penetrative anal sex. And I kind of left it there, and that was sort of it. And so then when we got there on the day, it was a little challenging because it was like, well, our understanding of what you were doing was gonna be X, and now you're saying you want to shoot Y. Because obviously, what penetrative anal sex looks like in terms of filming it on camera, and obviously this isn't pornography, but what I was gonna express, what my angles were gonna be, I didn't know that I had to be so micro and specific about it. Right. And I had already had conversations with Delon and Billy going into shooting the scene, but I figure we were gonna like find it on the day. Some scenes you want to keep a little looser, and this was a really good lesson in like, yeah, a scene like this, you probably don't want to keep it super loose. You probably want to go in very specifically and know exactly what you want. And they were open to keeping it loose. But then on the day, it was like, wait, you never talked about all these specifics. And Tanisa, our intimacy coordinate, was one of the people who was very vocal about the way we talked about it is a little different from what you're saying you now want. And you know, that hasn't been built into like the contract that you sign with your actors. And so there was a lot of conversation before we even put cameras up and to start shooting between all of us with Dylan and with Billy about what's the line, right? And funny enough, the thing for them was just not wanting like their bits to be on camera, which it was like, well, we would never show that anyway.

SPEAKER_05 21:20

But it was good just to make sure we're all on the same page about that.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Completely, completely. And I think what was great is I remember having a conversation with them, just the three of us, Billy and Delon, sort of communicating to me, we're feeling a little like nervous and uncomfortable about it overall. So, you know, it's like there isn't anything that's gonna feel like it's a hard no. Like, I don't want to do that. I pulled Tanison and then I kind of went through the beat by beat choreography. So, like you start with a kiss, the kiss, you lay each other down, your heads are on this end of the bed. At this point, a hand comes up, you say this line, you then move over. That's where we see what would be like. An insertion, that's where the two of you come together. And then at that point, it just was, I'm just gonna let you guys go. So, for example, like the line in the scene where Delon says, I think I want you to have me, that wasn't anything that we had talked about. He ad-lived that line, and it's it was a really good line, and obviously we kept it in because it was perfect, and so that line read was the perfect transition, but was something that he as an actor did on his own.

SPEAKER_04 22:30

It sounds to me that although there maybe were some questions in prep, and maybe on the day it was a little shifted, it seems like you still got to the end here with a beautifully constructed scene. You have these fantastic shots, the bodies in space are looking almost like paintings or statues. It's it's gorgeous, it's very fluid. My personal favorite moment, I don't know if this was the actors or of you or if this was the I see, but when he sort of drags his finger across the chest when he's initially asking Praetel to be with him, there's something so tentative, but something so lovely about just like a general chest caress, and he can't even like meet his eyes, and then he looks up. I was like, ah, I love it. It's beautiful, fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

I have to say, no, that was totally all them as actors.

SPEAKER_04 23:16

Yeah, that's great. Actors are the best choreographers.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

The best, the best. I mean, at that point, we're you know, we were two and a half seasons in, and they knew their characters like the backs of their hands. And that's what I was trying to allude to when I said earlier on the day I wanted things to be loose, it hasn't always been my experience. And this is beyond even sex scenes and intimate scenes where just the caliber of the actor or their experience with who they're playing, that it's like, I just in this particular moment, I want you to just do your thing. Like, I don't have to overdirect it, I don't have to sort of give you a million notes. Like, I just want you to sort of be in the moment and let it be what it wants to be. And that was the tricky nature of this scene because it has to be choreographed, right? So you have to talk about it, you have to figure it out, and at the same time, you're also still trying to keep things loose. And part of keeping it loose was so that they know what their limits are. So I'm like, I want you to both make whatever choices are gonna feel comfortable for you, and yet at the same time doing that within very choreographed, very specific beats. So it's like a really delicate dance that's happening. Yeah, it is, it's very tricky. But I think they both rose to the moment, which I appreciated.

SPEAKER_04 24:33

I had an experience on set recently where the actors were adamant that it was not over choreographed, and I definitely hear that, and I'm not there to to overcomplicate and overwhelm them. They have a lot of things to think about on their own. So, what we ended up doing is we've just created a really basic arc. Walk from point A to point B, then to get on the bed. This is the motion of simulated sex, this is what it looks like, and this is how to maintain distance between bodies, and then you end up here. Go. Everything else, everything you add, that's the stuff, that's the acting, the motion. That's what brings up the ability to physically add lib, because they know each other's boundaries, and now they can sit even further in character and explore that because now they're not like worried, did I touch the wrong thing that I do the wrong thing? But it's still choreographed enough to tell the right story.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

I want to go back to what you were saying because I think it's fascinating to think about that experience, juxtapose against there's a sex scene that I directed in American sports story Aaron Hernandez, which was also for FX, I think it's on Hulu now, also two queer men, but played by two straight actors. And this is already now you know, years and years into my career. That point, that was like the fifth maybe time I'd worked with an intimacy coordinator. And that was fascinating because that scene is much smaller, much shorter, not nearly as much work or choreography. It's just like a quick pop. Whereas with Billy and Delon, there was conversation between the three of us alongside our intimacy coordinator around what would be the best way to express this moment or this beat. There, the actors were like, tell us exactly what you want us to be doing. Right. And it was like I had to literally think about from the top to bottom, this is what the scene is, this is everything that happens, you know, like beat by beat by beat. And even on the day as we were filming, alongside our intimacy coordinator, kind of working and talking out, this happens, this happens, this happens. And I think that was very different from Poe's, but working with my intimacy coordinator was a godsend because for me it was like, this is kind of what I want the work to be, this is how I want the scene to play out. And then she came in and was like, to your point, Ariel, like she was like, This is what will be between the two of you during the scene. And these are the places where you can put your hands in a way that looks really intimate, but maybe won't make you feel super uncomfortable or, you know, and really just a complete 180 of an experience. But equally, like every experience, it's like I keep getting to put new tools into the toolkit, you know? Which is great.

SPEAKER_05 27:11

The biggest thing that you're talking about that I think anyone in this industry has to have in their toolbox is flexibility. Like that's something as an intimacy coordinator, I always talk about when they're like, oh, what's your approach? Like, are you more technical and you're gonna tell me like exactly where to put my upper lip and my lower lip, or are you just gonna like let me go? And I adapt to whatever is most helpful for the people that I'm working with. There are some directors who have really specific visions and they already have like in their head, shot for shot, there are others who are going on vibes. There are some actors who find a lot of comfort in having like everything laid out, like those actors you were talking about. And then there are other ones like Delana and um Billy Porter who know the characters really well. They know this relationship, and so they just want to know what container they're working in so that they can play. And I think being able to adjust between those is really what's the most helpful for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Completely, completely.

SPEAKER_04 28:09

Adaptability.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Yeah. No, I think that what you said is like really spot on, and it's fascinating too because for me, IC's filled in such a beautiful space in terms of working on any intimacy. Because the intimacy doesn't have to just be sex, to be clear. Like for folks who are listening, like it's it's more than just like an actual proper sex scene. For me, what I've you know, I've found more times than not, they're really there more for me than they are for the actor. Because again, you know, yeah, like I have found a quite a number of times where I'm just like, oh, that's not there was a scene I was filming where like two actors start off kissing, and I was like, it's not quite where I want it to be. And I just was like, I don't know how to give these people, these actors, the note to say what it is that I'm looking for because it's just not quite hitting. And they felt great about it, but I'm like, yeah, but what I'm seeing at the monitor is not quite what needs to be expressed in the scene. And even giving you like specific adjustments on like what your character might be feeling right now is, you know, unless I'm going in and very specifically being like, I need you to nibble a lip or I need you to, it's like that's uh and so that was great because in those moments, that's where my AC is like, hey, perhaps if you exactly like here are some things to say, here are some ways to like maybe think about articulating that. And so that was like perfect, that's wonderful. And so in those ways, the intimacy coordinate for me has always been a resource. Anytime I've directed and an IC has been on set, I see it as being as much a resource for me as I do for the actors.

SPEAKER_04 29:44

I love hearing that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 29:46

I love that. Yeah, and it you know, I I hear that from directors all the time, where you know, our job is not just to make sure the actors are working within their boundaries, it's also to bring your vision to life. And I've had so many directors who are like, I don't know how to ask for this thing because I feel weird asking for it, or I'm going for this vibe, but I don't know how to articulate that. I don't know what note to give. And then that's when we can jump in and help out with that. So I really appreciate you mentioning that benefit and that it's worked for you. Yeah. So usually at this point in the show, we do a thing called our spice scale where we rate intimacy scenes based on consent and power dynamics, technical craft and coordination excellence, and heat factor. Since every scene in pose would get an A. For us, we're gonna alter this a bit. We call it Behind the Spice, where we use the spice scale just to guide a further discussion about the intimacy scenes and get our guests' perspective on the scenes that they worked on. So, Ariel, do you want to kick us off with consent and power dynamics?

SPEAKER_04 30:53

Yes. So this is how the scene depicts consent and power in the story, and if known, hopefully behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

It's an interesting scene because in the context of the show, Pratel obviously is older, but also is seen as like a father figure. And that obviously becomes a large part of the arc of the episode, right? It's the reason why Pratel's best friend Blanca is upset with him when it's revealed that they're having this sexual relationship because she feels like you have a responsibility, but also people see you as a father figure, you're taking advantage of your role. And for Pratel, his feeling and sense of it is he came on to me. Right? Like he the like we're two consenting adults. He's an adult, he's younger, but he's an adult, and that part of it is what I loved so much about the dynamic. Delon's character, Ricky, isn't a child, he's a man. We don't show them drinking alcohol in the scene prior to the sex scene when they're eating Chinese food together, right? So there was no question of, well, he couldn't have consented because perhaps he was intoxicated or anybody, like we made it very clear that, like, no, these were like two clear, level-headed adults who made this decision together. And so I love that it's even in spite of all of that, still creates complications for their circle.

SPEAKER_05 32:16

Yeah, I love that you were having those specific conversations about this scene to make it really clear. I also, when I was watching this scene and this scene prior, Prey Tell was definitely like pushing off his advances, but I think there was also a part of Prey Tel that was surprised. Like, why are you interested in me, an older person? It reminds me of hacks when Deborah's had some interactions with younger men and she's surprised that they're hitting on her because she's an older woman. And I thought that was also an interesting power dynamic as well. In some ways, like Ricky, as the younger person, has some power because he's seen as more desirable.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

You know what's interesting? Like you could choose anyone. What's interesting, Morgan, about the thread that you just connected between Pose and Hacks, which I love, is that with Deborah, I forget his name, but he was like a young rock star in that last season. They both are celebrities, right? Like they're both people who already have a profile. They both are specifically working on the strip. And I think similarly on Pose, you have Preytel and Ricky who are both queer black men who are HIV positive. And so it's really interesting when you think about it in that context, that the age aside, which for both Praetel and for Deborah feels like a little bit of a block. Like it's odd for them that why would you be attracted to me? That there isn't an acknowledgement of, oh, but there are all these other specific things, markers that connect us, and that that would be the place where the connection would come from.

SPEAKER_05 33:51

Up until this point, if I remember correctly, we haven't seen Praetel with a partner. So right, even if he is a father figure for so many of these people, at the same time, like he's not actually their father, and he's a man who has needs just like everybody else. And some of those needs are for connection. So I think it's really beautiful that we get to see him have that in this scene.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

But yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_05 34:15

Should we jump into technical craft, coordination excellence? This is where we talk about the staging, film coverage, modesty, protection, choreography, and overall execution of the scene. We've touched on this a little bit, but we can give it a little bit more love, I think, because there's so much good going on here in this scene.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

I know one of the things that I really wanted for this scene was for it to feel like a European film.

SPEAKER_05 34:40

Ooh, I love that. Okay. Yes, tell me more.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Um, there's a German LGBT movie called Freefall. It is a film that I really love. It was produced and released in 2013, but that was one of my visual references for this scene. There's a love scene between the two men in that film where their heads are not up at the top of the bed, you know, where the pillows are, but down by the feet. And that's one of the reasons why I made that choice in this scene. So it really had nothing to do with shooting in the space that we were filming in, or you know, visuals. It really had everything to do with that was a reference for me. And you know, I was like, oh, that's different. I haven't ever seen anyone make that choice before. I think there's something really beautiful about European cinema. There's a closeness and intimacy, unabashed nakedness, and I don't even mean physically naked, but just like a carefree attitude to sex and sexuality that I really was hoping to kind of get to in this scene.

SPEAKER_05 35:41

You were touching on this earlier because you wanted this scene to feel like a scene of making love as opposed to fucking. A lot of European films approach romance in that way where it's very clear what's happening. We're not trying to be sensationalist about it. Or puritanical roots make us try to show it as like shock factor or like here are naked bodies instead of poetry. And I saw that with this scene, we were talking about like how they looked like statues with the way they were posed earlier. Yeah, that completely came through.

SPEAKER_04 36:21

Just the physiology of it made a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_05 36:24

He was moving slowly at first and took his time. We just did uh broken up mountain recently.

SPEAKER_04 36:35

And in we go and we're gonna go.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

Here we go with a little bit of spit. It's just it's I cannot.

SPEAKER_04 36:40

Just the littlest bit of spit. Oh my gosh. I have to just do a side note. I just worked on a production where it was um two folks with external genitalia having anal penetrative sex, and they were originally in a spit and they were like, can can we cut the spit? I'm like, can we get at least have something? Like, please. Like, we can throw a bottle of lube on the table and just have it there and not even use it. Like, just be like, we did it. It's just not being fine. I was like, please.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

It's too much. It's like, come on.

SPEAKER_04 37:09

It takes two seconds.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

I will say, I appreciate your appreciation for the ebb and flow of them in the scene. The one thing I will say that I got ja ragged for about that scene, and like to this day, I still will hear that specifically from like gay people. Like, I have a couple of gay friends who are constantly ribbing me about this, is that they're always like, bitch, there's no world where these two are gonna be fucking the way that they were having sex, and not one of them went induced when they just had all that Chinese food. They're like, who is having that kind of sex after Chinese?

SPEAKER_05 37:47

Okay, okay. This is such an important topic. And this is the feedback I hear from so many gay male viewers about sex scenes is people want to see the douche ang. Like, this was a big thing that came up with heated rivalry recently. So, what's your reaction to people who are like, oh, I want to see the douche ang?

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Um, I'm not gonna yuck anybody's yum. Some people don't. And I know that there are gonna be people out there who are gonna be like, ugh, really? No. But I mean, I think the thing is not all assholes, not all anal cavities, not all colons are built the same, right? And I don't know what your fiber intake is. I don't like so we just we don't know, right? So, like we A, we can't make assumptions. But B, in the case of this specific scene, I don't believe, as the person who wrote it and directed it, that Ricky went to Praetels under the guise of, I'm gonna fuck this guy tonight. It just happened. And I think sometimes like that is just the spontaneity of life. Like we have all been in situations where we're like, well, that's unexpected. I didn't expect that to happen. And here we are. And so the ribbing on it doesn't bother me because I'm just like, it is what it is. Like, whatever. They had Chinese food and they had sex anyway, you know. And I don't know what the discourse around heater rivalries has been. But, you know, I'm thinking of a show like Looking on HBO, right? Like Looking had a whole entire, there's a scene in an episode, I don't remember which season, where we see Jonathan Groff on a bathroom floor with his ass up in the air after he douched, right? So it's like there are shows that have shown that and really gone there, which I love. I don't know that that's something we need to see every single time two people are getting down. If I have suspension of disbelief around, I don't know, like fucking aliens in a spaceship, a la like Star Wars or Star Trek. I think I can like suspend my disbelief that occasionally gay men have sex and maybe they douched off camera before this sex scene. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:38

I totally agree. This is something I get so nerdy about. If there isn't already a book on the history of douching, like I want to have someone write it because it is relatively more contemporary practice to have it be as regular as people are having it. And part of that is because like there are more people who are out, there are apps, so you're having hookups where like you're meeting up knowing we're going to have sex when that was less common, douching was less common. And so because this is a period piece, it's totally believable that these characters would have had sex without douching. And to your point, too, also you can just have spontaneous sex and that happens, and you're not always prepared.

SPEAKER_04 40:21

And movie magic. Yes. There's this thing that Morgan and I do when the movies we're looking at get perfect A's and we love them, and we we decide how we would ruin the moment. And I would argue that in this situation, if you were to even add douching to this moment, it would take away from the romance, the fluidity. It really would like full stop the scene. They go and they do this, it would be like a little raunchier than I think the mood you're going for is, and then they'd be back like you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 40:50

Completely so because we are giving this scene an A. And I'm just gonna say Heat Factor's last category, A to me. I think this scene is so hot and beautiful. I would love it, Steven, if you would ruin your own scene for us. We've never done this before. What would you do to make this scene bad? Sometimes this is applying the straight gaze, sometimes this is like, what do you think a bad director would do if they were directing this scene?

SPEAKER_00 41:18

That's a good question. One of the things that just popped in my head, one of the reasons this scene works so well, is because one of our executive producers, Alexis Martin Woodall, was great at these needle drops. And I think that babyface song, specifically over this scene, make it just pops in a way that it wouldn't if you didn't have that song playing. It just adds to the sexiness and the vibe, you know? What would a bad director do here? And this isn't trying to drag straight people or straight directors, but I think that no, I think my being a queer person helped to capture this queer moment. And I think a straight director wouldn't have gotten that moment, Delon saying, I think I want you to have me. I don't think we would have gotten that moment where when we see Prey Tell penetrating Ricky, and then Delon did that beautiful like exhale of like, you know, into it. Like I think that those kinds of moments that really let you in into a moment and see and feel the intimacy, I think all of that would be stripped out. No more. And I don't think you would have seen like them laying on each other at the end of the scene naked either. I think it would probably have been like very waist up. It would have been a lot of like loud, sloppy kissing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:32

That would be the loud sloppy noises.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Yeah, that would be that would be the shitty version. It would just be like a lot of kissing with like too much tongue and like and then you know like really sweaty.

SPEAKER_05 42:46

The pacing of the thrusting would be so much faster. It's less about connection, and it's just the spectacle of like we're seeing two men have sex.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

Would be spit in the hand.

SPEAKER_05 42:57

Spit in a hand. Which is gonna be my new thing now.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

It's gonna be my new thing.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

When I see a gay sex scene that I don't like from now, I'm just gonna be like, it's very spit in the hand. That's gonna be my new thing.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

Yeah, yes. Oh my god, let's make it a thing. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

No shade to broke back, because you know, broke back mountains, you know, iconic, whatever.

SPEAKER_05 43:18

But yeah. We gave her her do. But also, there's always room for improvement. We've been eating nothing but beans anyway.

SPEAKER_04 43:32

We weren't on the brokeback diet. For real, for real. Well, thank you for ruining it. That was a beautiful ruining.

SPEAKER_05 43:42

That was so good. Before we let you go, we just have a couple last questions for you. Pose is more than just a show. It feels like a historical document of this huge important community that had such an impact on this country, on its culture. Did you ever have a moment where you realize, like, wow, this is going to have such a huge impact, where you really felt the impact that it was having?

SPEAKER_00 44:10

There were two moments for me. I'm almost hesitant to share them because I'm having a realization right now with you about these two moments, because obviously the show centers queer and trans people. And one of these stories, this person doesn't check any of the kind of boxes in terms of who the story was. I mean, the show is for everybody, but at the core, like what my heart space was saying is I really want specifically queer and trans people to feel centered, to be heard, to know that they should occupy space unapologetically. This person, again, is like a straight person and white, but I was on a plane flying between LA and New York. And so it's coast to coast. The person I was sitting next to on the plane, we had been talking for a little while, but at this point, you know, we got to talking about work, and she's like, Oh, what do you do? And I tell her, Oh, I like I work in film and television, blah, blah, blah. And uh, we get to, you know, have you done anything that I might have seen? I'm like, oh, like I created a show, it's called Pose. And she gasped. And I think it was, I want to say she was probably in her mid-late 60s, straight white woman. But she goes, and she goes, Oh my god, I love that show so much. And I'm shocked now. And I'm thinking, Did she? She definitely heard me say pose, right? And then she says to me with tears in her eyes, she starts welling up, and she goes, I have to say, she was like, I started watching it thinking I wouldn't have any connection to any of these characters. But she's like, truly, and it still gets me every time I think about it. But she was like, I really wish that this show existed when my kids were younger, because I think if it had, I would have been a different kind of mother.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

Oh, I just got chills. Oh, I got chills.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

And I was like, Whoa, because it's, you know, it's uh there's so much to unpack. I mean, but one is that she saw Blanca played beautifully by MJ Rodriguez, a trans woman who takes all these young kids in, validating her experience as a mom, but also saying, I can learn something about motherhood from her, was massive. And I just remember thinking, whoa, okay, like maybe the show will actually sort of hit a different demographic. And then the second experience happened a couple months after that. We were invited to Paley Fest here in LA. And at the end of that experience, you know, we were all on stage, like the cast and the producers, we were stepping off stage, and a woman stepped up to me and she said, Just want you to know that I was diagnosed with cancer. And so I started doing my cancer treatments, my chemo uh therapy during the run of the first season. And I told myself, if I beat cancer, then I will absolutely live authentically. And so she was like, I'm now 60 years old and I just transitioned and I'm cancer free. You know, and that was another one of those experiences where it was like, oh my God, you know, because I'm thinking, you know, the show we wanted people to feel seen and to be heard, but I've and I've had a number of experiences like that where like people have said I watched the show and it gave me the strength I needed to say, I'm gonna live authentically. And that one always resonates for me so deeply because she was already entering her 60s, she had just beaten cancer, and I thought, oh, good for her that she gets to rewrite her story in the way that she wants to. It's so beautiful, and I hope she's doing really well.

SPEAKER_05 47:38

Me too. I love that.

SPEAKER_04 47:40

Thank you for sharing that with us. Thank you. What kind of stories are you most excited to tell next?

SPEAKER_00 47:47

I love that. Well, more queer shit, please, and thank you.

SPEAKER_05 47:50

Yeah, hell yeah. Snap, snap, snap, snap.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

You know, it's been a little bleak out there. Maybe more specifically for me. It's like I'm always looking to center folks of color, women, LGBTQ plus folks. But it's just like uh LGBT stories, it's hard. You you're really you're pushing a boulder up a mountain, and it's been very, very tricky and challenging. And so seeing shows like a heated rivalry having so much success gives me a lot of hope because it's like, oh, in success, hopefully they'll not see our stories in our lives as just a trend, but really continue to invest and not divest in our stories. So nothing specific to plug right now, but I've just been writing a ton and pitching. I just need people to invest in those stories. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:32

It was so interesting, like prepping for this. I was getting so extra emotional watching this show. I just got married a couple weeks ago. Congratulations. And thank you. Thank you so much. So I've I'm such an easy cry. But I like watching Pose, I was like, oh my gosh, like feeling the love of these people and feeling the connection that this community had and feeling that history, it was all accumulating for me and it was so powerful. And I just want to thank you for making this show and thank you for continuing to push to make whatever shows you have in your brain right now, because I know it's not always easy to try to make something, but I know the next thing you're gonna make is gonna be incredible.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

Thank you so much. I receive all of that. I really appreciate that. I really appreciate that. And thank you for watching and and thank you for having me here today. This was so lovely to like step into a time machine and go back a decade to talk and think about because you know, it's like in this business, you work and then you just kind of move on. And so it's nice to sort of step back into it and think about what you accomplished, you know, how it'll hopefully inspire the next thing.

SPEAKER_04 49:42

Thank you. And thank you. We're so grateful you were able to join us. We don't want to take up too much more of your time. You've been so generous with us, but this was truly such a treat. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

I look forward to working with both of you on a set one day.

SPEAKER_04 49:56

Oh, well, you're ready. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:02

Ice demon. Oh my God.

SPEAKER_04 50:06

Such a brilliant word. I mean, he's a writer, it makes sense. But I literally stumbled so much over my words, I was like, oh, that was so great.

SPEAKER_05 50:14

I love everything that you said. Even though we're doing this virtually, you can really feel his passion over the internet waves. It's really incredible. Like his determination to tell these stories, the passion with which he tells them, and how much he feels for the queer community and specifically like the queer people of color that he is writing for. And it's so beautiful. I'm so glad we got to talk to him. I'm glad we got some like inside tea on what was going on behind the scenes. That was so dope. The story about the older woman who had just gone through cancer.

unknown 50:56

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 50:57

I'm going to cry. Like, what? And I loved the hacks reference, and I just I feel like I want to talk to him for like 45 more hours. Audience, you don't even know. We had a list of questions this long, and we just we couldn't, we didn't have time for all of the questions and the love that we have. Thank you so much, Steven. We appreciate you and the work that you do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:25

Well, Morgan, do you have anything to plug? A feature I worked on, find your friends, is out on Shutter. So check it out. It's a really cool thriller that turned out really good.

SPEAKER_04 51:38

Thanks so much for listening to Faking It. This episode's research and contexts were done by Morgan.

SPEAKER_05 51:43

You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or anywhere else you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every other Hump Day, Wednesday.

SPEAKER_04 51:51

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SPEAKER_05 52:02

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SPEAKER_04 52:08

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SPEAKER_05 52:27

This episode was produced by Ariel Lee Cohen, social media and branding by Morgan Smith. Our theme song is Faking It by Mike Getz. Credits for the film or show we reacted to are in the episode captioned. Stay real, fakers.

SPEAKER_04 52:39

Happy Pride! Happy Pride!

unknown 52:42

Woo!