Shifting Times | The Church and Politics

In episode 2 of "Shifting Times," Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr., along with Pastor Brian Weatherspoon and Pastor Timothy Baldwin, discuss whether or not the Body of Christ should be involved in politics and how we can deposit the Word of God and kingdom principles into today’s culture. 

"Shifting Times" is the podcast of Bethel Deliverance International Church hosted by Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr. Tune in bi-weekly for new episodes where we explore how the Body of Christ must consider shifting its doctrinal expression and the way it reveals the light of Christ in their life. These candid conversations with pastors, professionals and community leaders will confront the current issues of our society, give biblical solutions to life's challenges and provoke action in areas of complacency.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:21

I believe they just don't know what to do with their lifetime.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

So we have to be careful that as the church, we are accepting tolerant in terms of loving people, but not allowing people in the heart of the kingdom.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Our purpose is different than normal. You know, normally we try to assess biblical things and make you feel good about your Christianity, but this podcast it is titled Shifting Times because we want to shift you into a different mode. We are literally, literally watching the change of generations in our churches. We're going from baby boomers down to this new generation. What do they call them, Pastor? Millennials. Millennials. And now you're seeing a completely different look in the involvement of the church into the culture. As we change generations, it is important for us to realize that we must become involved in the political process. Many of the freedoms and privileges that we enjoy today were fought and paid for by demonstrations, uh, getting involved, and telling the government that we need these changes, the right to vote amongst our people. It's something that we should not take lightly. People fought and died for the right for us to vote and to have our voices heard in our government. Today we want to focus a little bit more on why we believe it is necessary for you, the believer, to get involved in the political process. We want to do this so that you'll become more aware of how important it is for you to let the voice of Christ be heard in every arena of your life. Now, one of the most outstanding conversations that we've had in our government and in our culture is that of same-sex marriages and active homosexuality. In fact, I believe it was one of the reasons why the Democrats lost the election, that along with letting illegal aliens into the country. Now, the Christian has always had this wall up of segregation amongst homosexuals. I believe they just don't know what to do with that lifestyle. And I've been doing some thinking and praying about it, and uh we've said a lot of things from the our perception of scripture, and we've really alienated a group of people through dogma rather than doctrine.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

So in our first uh section of this conversation, I want to look at how God views that. How God views that so that we can know how to encounter those individuals whose lifestyle is going down that road. Yeah. So I'm gonna put this question out before you, and then you guys can build on it. I'm gonna go have a cup of tea because it's gonna take you some time to convince others. You wake up one morning and you're sitting at home with your spouse, you're you're having a great time in family, and your son or your daughter comes to you and says, I I realize now that I am homosexual, that I've pushed those feelings down for a lot of years, and now I want to come out with that. And you're a Christian. And more specifically, you're a Christian pastor. Now I'm gonna have a cup of tea, and you guys flesh it out. Wow. Number one, what would be God's response? Number two, what would be your response? And number three, how should they try to live in both responses?

SPEAKER_00 4:02

God's response, our response, their response. God's response. Uh the scriptures are clear. Uh we always focus on the the homosexual piece um in terms of the sin, right? Uh I mean, from from uh Leviticus all the way up to to Paul, right? Right. Uh the the the um uh same-sex attraction, uh, but we don't look at it from just a sexual immorality perspective, because that's what it is. Obviously, it's same-sex. And so God's response to that is number one, that's not his design for us. So we can all agree on that. That God's design is uh for a man and a woman to procreate, right? And so so we could agree on that. Uh hopefully we agree on that. Uh we can agree on that. And then our response, my response would be, you know, to be very honest, I would probably be I would I would it would probably hurt um as a father, um, but but my love would kick in for my for my child. Um, and I think that my responsibility would be to love my child uh first, and then because of the home that my child grew up in, they would be very aware. Um but it would be my responsibility to walk with them uh through this process, helping them to overcome this space in their lives. Um and uh I I think that's how I would I would see that's I I think God sees it from that perspective. God hates all sin. And so, you know, we in the church we have a we're good for categorizing sin, you know, and it's like we put homosexuality at the top of the sin, but nobody talks about backbiting and and overeating, right? Um but but I think that that God's love should be the prevailing response to our child when it comes to living that lifestyle, you know, um, and then having a time and season of hearing them and hearing their heart. How did you get here, you know, so that we can walk through. I find most times where people have experienced that lifestyle or lived that lifestyle, a very high percentage of them did not just choose it. A lot of times there's some trauma that goes along with it, there's sin that happens along with it. Someone being exposed to sex at a very young age, exploring, you know, their first sexual contact is with with the same sex. And so there's always some prevailing underlying issue there. And so, my my heart as a father, I would want to get to the heart of what's happening here and how do we walk together as father and child to help you navigate this space. Because the one thing that I don't know is that I've never been in a body that I feel like I hate. Like a body that I feel like doesn't belong to me. You know, and so so I would be very compassionate toward them while we walk to together to help them navigate this life and hopefully come out of it and live for Christ.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Now I'm gonna hold on to your walk together and bring that up in the continuing saga. Pastor.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Yeah, um I'm gonna have a lot of questions to ask. How we get here? Um, you know, what happened? Maybe where where was the where was the entrance? How how do you always think this way, or did something happen like Pastor Tim said? I I do have questions as a father, you know, because as a father you think, well, you're protecting, you're making sure everything's okay. Uh, you know, especially if you have sons and you want to make sure everything's good. So my first questions would be, how'd this happen? Where'd this thought come from? You know, is this something that I think is spiritual or is this something that happened to you? So I have those questions first. Surely you have the God perspective because God loves you anyway. So to anybody struggling with that lifestyle, God still loves you. So this is not that conversation. If God loves you, then of course I'm gonna love you because you're my child. But I am gonna have a lot of questions as to how we got to this part. And for you to actually come and tell me this is what it is, how long have you been wrestling with this and struggling with it, and and have you acted upon it? So I'm gonna have those questions like that. And then naturally, I, like Pastor Tim and anybody else, I think, my biggest question would be how do I make him feel like he belongs so that he can believe what I believe? So I gotta, you it's like you you love him, you hang with him, but when you get some information like that, I'm sure it may change the dynamic a little bit. So now it's kind of a a a revamping of your thinking on the how do I relate to them now to as to not push away, but to invite in so that possibly we'll win them back to Christ and they won't walk down that road.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

I I I hear you you still talking that walk together stuff. You have to. He's a boomer. You you do have different responses. Although we do say uh, you know, God hates all sin. Sure. I mean, that's obvious. Yeah. But we seem to have more of a struggle with someone who confesses that lifestyle. And my question for the church at large would be have we become so pharisaical that we put up this wall that if they were to come into our places of worship, they feel uncomfortable, right? They feel rejected, right, and they feel that they're under a certain amount of scrutiny that you wouldn't put on someone else. Sure. Right. And the question that we would have to ask is, is that fair? I mean, why all the questions as to how you got there? But if I came home and said I sell crack cocaine, you might not say how you get there.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

I'm gonna ask some questions for you too.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Yeah, but but but would would the would the interrogation be as thorough?

SPEAKER_02 10:15

It may not. It may not. I I can agree with you on that because I think we have categorized it as something that it's not only sin, I think we put in the category of unnatural. This this is just not natural occurrence for how God intended things. So I think maybe that's why you put the emphasis on well, how'd you get there? What what changed you? Because you're you're a male, or if you're a female, you're a female. What makes you think that that's not okay? What unchecked it, right? Because God is firmly made you who he made you. What what unraveled that? And we we know sin, of course, is the main, the main, you know, uh act in here, but what where where was the breakage? Where was the interference? And I think that would be, you know, that's what we need to get to. What's that all about?

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Now I chose that particular issue because I know that it is very difficult for most Christians to address. So we just throw it into the sin pile, into the hell uh uh uh uh pile, sure. And that's it. That's where you're going. You know, you just need to change. And we put a lot of effort into how they reach that point in their lives. Sure. And then we we we want them to be delivered, so much so that some places, you know, we want to cast that demon out of you and we want to do all that other stuff. Yeah. But in these shifting times, I think we're missing the message of God.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

We really are. And and I'm by no means legitimizing anything. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

But I think that what we've done is we magnified our Phariseal perspective and not the mercy of God. Yeah. I mean, we're talking about a God who literally follows people to save them. Yeah. He has already told us we don't search, we don't seek for him, we don't have a heart to seek for him. Nobody wants him, but yet he comes after everybody. I can sit here and say I've never sought God until after he caught me. Sure. I didn't find him, he found me. Yeah, I use that particular issue because it's the one that causes the most discomfort.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's uncomfortable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

You can have anybody else come into your church and there is this welcoming mindset. But if someone comes in professing that particular lifestyle, sure. Right away we become Pharisee. You know, you're going to hell. You got to do this, that, and the other. And the questions that you want to ask, are they really relevant?

SPEAKER_02 12:42

I mean, uh I think if you're a parent, that's just natural instinct. Um, if you're in my church, you come to my church and you confess that that's your lifestyle, okay. I mean, you know, as long as you want to come to church, come to church. Do what you do. But if you want to do other things, I start to talk more. I start to ask more questions because we still have to uphold what we believe is biblical. So come to church. We want you to come as you are. We really do. And um and you got to bring that bring all the stuff with you. But that's that's kind of where it is. I wouldn't ask you a ton of questions if you said you were homosexual or if I noticed maybe that was your thing. I I'm not gonna deal with that.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

For anyone outside of your home.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

Anyone outside of my home. If you're in my house, I'm personally responsible. I feel a personal responsibility to dig and to find out a little bit. Lord will it not to the point of pushing, but to the point of let's let's talk about this and find out. And is your goal going to get them out of that lifestyle? It would ultimately be my goal, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Uh but not without loving them. I'm still gonna love you. We're still gonna do what we do as a family, but I am gonna seek to say you you should really come out of that lifestyle. That that that would be my goal. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Pastor Tim.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Yeah, I I think my goal would be to really help them change their heart about God. Because that's what that's what the real crux of what's happening here in any sin. It's our heart towards the Lord. You know, uh we we talk about how God is love, you know. The scriptures doesn't say that he gives love or it he is love, you know. And when we we view ourselves and uh through the eyes of who God is, it's almost like obviously we pale in comparison to who he is, even though we have some of his attributes. But you know, m my goal, my heart would be to help them change their heart towards God. Sure. Because because it really boils down to heart issues. That once we can get our hearts changed towards God in a way that that that causes fruit in our lives, then you can start thinking about individuals coming out of a lifestyle. You know, any kind of sin. We know that sin is a heart issue.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Sure, any sin. Yeah, and so and I think our goal is to not condemn or to inform. That's right. People can't make changes unless they realize what they need to do. What they're in or for. Absolutely. And so uh we we have to look at the shift that's going on now. God is not for so many years in the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, we created this image of God where He walks around like a spiritual hitman. Yeah, yeah, we have to do it. He's gonna kill you. If you don't give your time, your your car is gonna break. And look, I'm telling you right now, I've been tithing since I was 14 years old, and my car has broken around, my refrigerator dies, anything that could happen. So there has to be a shift in our understanding of God. I don't think we understand his mercy. And again, I bring that particular situation up because there always is this stigma. It's almost as if we're saying it can rub off on me, so I don't want it near me.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Yeah, yeah. I think there's a there's a homophobia there. Like, yeah, absolutely. I think people, you know, kind of view that, and and once again, I I think we've made it so taboo. Yeah. And such a big thing. It is sin at the end of the day. It's a sin.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

As with back backbiting and gossiping and racism. They're all right.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Absolutely, absolutely. You don't know who you're sitting next to in church. You could be sitting next to a murderer in church. Yeah. And they could high-five you and hug you, right? But you don't know what they do when they leave church. You don't know who you sit next to. People are coming because they're hurting. People come in churches for many reasons. And I mean, let them all come. Jesus didn't say check them at the door and see who's good. He said, let them all come. Now, what you do when you get them there and and and when you start to grow in relationship with people, then you find out maybe what they're into. Now maybe we can go another step further and maybe start to ask the hard questions. But we want you in church and we want you in church.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

I want to focus on the shift. Okay. I want to focus on the shifting times. Uh so much has been downloaded into my mind. I was so looking forward to our podcast. Yes. Um, because I want to address uh a view of God that is has been excluded. But before I do that, Pastor Tim, you had something burning that you wanted to kick out.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Yeah, I think I think the the church has to be vigilant with this uh subject from this perspective. Um because of how the culture presents it, that it's almost like the only sin that that the culture wants to legislate. Sure. And so we have to be careful that as the church we are accepting and tolerant in terms of loving people, sure, but not allowing a a an agenda to become a part of the kingdom movement. That's true. And I think that's important because sometimes we see churches where they're compromising with that. And that to me, that's where I draw the line in the sand. Where like I I will love it it doesn't matter what your lifestyle is, what your background is. If you if you walk through the doors of our church, we're gonna love you.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Yeah, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Yeah, but we won't we won't allow you to to to bring an agenda and that you know as believers, when we when we speak against it, you know, and speak the heart of God toward it, it's almost like we can we can be ostracized and demonized for standing up for what is biblically sound and correct. And so for us, we just got to be vigilant.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

That situation has caused me to think over the past five years, I would say. Uh for me, COVID was an extreme blessing. Not the virus, right, right, but the isolation. Yeah, yeah. It forced me to rethink God. And I'm telling you, uh gentlemen, I think we've misrepresented God. We've created a God that the scriptures cannot support. I agree. We've created doctrinal positions that the scriptures cannot support. I agree. And in many cases, we African American pastors have created an atmosphere of self-hatred for for our own people. Paul teaches in the book of Romans how much he loved his people. Yeah. You know, he said, I want my brothers to be saved.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

That's true.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

We, on the other hand, we really don't stress uh the accomplishments and the things that we've done as a people so that our people can feel that they've they've been a contributor to our culture as opposed to someone draining the culture, we've added to it. And for me, uh you know, what's God say about that?

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

I believe when the Bible is silent on a certain issue, then we should, from an accumulation of scriptural knowledge, we should draw a conclusion that fits the character of God. For this example. Uh, if my if I come home one day, when I was a child, I come home and my brother and sister are there, and they say, Mama said for you to do the to do the dishes. All right. And then I would look and say, you know, well, mama's never taught me how to do the dishes, daddy didn't tell me how to do the dishes, why would they leave that edict? That's completely out of character. Right. So, what is the character of God? So here's what I've come up with, gentlemen, and I know it's gonna mess with people, but this is uh a time for shifting. It's it's really shifting times. And I'm gonna make you do that because it's important. The Bible doesn't call us to make converts, it calls us to make disciples. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

That's absolutely correct.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Now, the Holy Spirit is the one who brings in the converts. He converts them. Nobody can come unless the Spirit draws them, he draws them to Christ. True. Christ then draws them to our local assembly where we make con uh uh disciples. Absolutely. Are we making disciples, gentlemen? And I mean, really, be honest now. Are we really making disciples?

SPEAKER_02 21:13

I think I I think I could say I've made some. I don't think the whole church is disciples.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

No, I'm talking about the church as an institution.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Oh, as oh yeah, well. Now be nice. Be nice, be nice. I don't think so. Right, right. No, we've been so get them in oriented that we we just want you in.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

That's it.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

And and you know, just come in. Because we want to look big, we want to look lofty, but we're not really uh concentrating on the discipleship piece. I'm on that one.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Now I don't listen. You're gonna go down that road. You know I'm going, you know where I'm going.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

I'm talking about institutionally. Can you say I think that we we need to do a better job. No, okay. I can say I can say that. I think we can do I think we can do a better job because Pastor Brock. Is right. We we do well gathering. Yeah. You know, but but discipleship has has waned in terms of what it looks like from a biblical perspective. So we we we do have work to do.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

So we have a whole generation of people who connect to our doctrine of church, but not to our Christ.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Wow because they're not disciples of Christ, they're disciples of our churches.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Well here's here's something even scarier than that. We have a whole generation of individuals who don't know Christ. That's true. Because the generation before them weren't discipled well. Right. So this generation coming up now, which is the Alpha Generation.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

Right, Alpha Generation, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

They don't have a concept of of who God is. God is. It's Google and technology. Absolutely. It's like you can watch you can watch a four-year-old man scroll and negotiate a tablet, but but who's who's teaching them about Christ? Who's passing the gospel down to them? That's the real dilemma.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Jeremiah said our young people would be wiser, but they would be weaker. Yeah, yeah. And I I translate that into weaker in every area. Yeah, that's true. Now, it goes back to what your favorite uh uh uh uh statement is. It's the leaders. It's the leaders. It's the leaders. We need to shift, we need to start thinking differently. Absolutely. We cannot capitulate and become what the world is. We have to set a different standard while maintaining individual dignity, while maintaining racial dignity. We cannot allow the culture to put us into this box and think that all we want to do is holler and scream and run around the church and lack spiritual foundation and substantive teaching.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Yeah, what is discipleship to you, gentlemen? What does that mean if you were to categorize it and define it into a way where people can understand? Because we want to shift from just soul winning, which is important, but we want to shift now towards discipleship because that's where the the problem is. Yeah, we're getting them in.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

They come in, but they're leaving. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

So how do we how do you define discipleship?

SPEAKER_02 24:09

Uh uh, I gotta go Greek for a second. Matates is disciple or discipline one. It really means to study the person. We normally say just follow, but really it means to be very intent on studying the footsteps of the one in front of you. And I think that's why Jesus did not allow the disciples to come for four hours and go back home. No, no, no. You're gonna have to follow me, study everything I do so that you'll ultimately become me. And that's exactly what they did. So it's a really it's technically it's a very intentional, intensive kind of reforming of a person's mind to follow the one in front of you. Us following Christ, them following us.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Yeah, when when you look at Jesus' model of discipleship, Jesus walked with his disciples and did life with them. That text in in the gospels where it talks about where he says, uh my yoke is easy and my burden is light. That yoke, that's that that's a that's a learning community. That's exactly right. When when he says my yoke is easy, it's a learning community. And so he says, take on my yoke, right? Take on my way of learning, take on my teaching. And so when you talk about discipleship, discipleship is is learning to become conformed to the image of Christ, growing and building mature believers. And when we look at discipleship from an institutional perspective, you know, we look at the systematic way of doing things, which I think is important. But discipleship time sometimes is having dinner with your neighbors, uh-huh, you know, and and talking with your neighbors about Christ, and walking with that that young couple uh, you know, in your community who may be new believers or searching for God and walking with them and helping them to navigate the road of Christianity. And and that's what that's what discipleship is. It's it's giving an individual a pathway to be like Christ.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

To be like Christ. Wow. I think that's a goal. Yeah. That in all honesty, you know how pragmatic I am. I I I don't I don't know if we'd ever reach that place. Right. Uh I like Paul's admonition put off the old man, put on the new man. Yeah. Then he finally comes to put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

Lord Jesus Christ, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Now, Paul likes that imagery. Yeah. It's great. And when you look at it, it commands us to adopt patterns of behavior that are Christological. Absolutely. But then we're confronted with a culture that constantly makes us go back to what was comfortable. Sure. Because Christianity by design is uncomfortable. Sure, it is. In fact, the crosses that we wear around our neck, uh, they they they are supposed to remind us of the death. Right. I mean, that's really what the cross is. The cross is a place of death. So when you put that cross on, it's not jewelry. Right. It's saying to people, I'm dead to my world and I'm alive to Christ.

SPEAKER_02 27:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

And so we we bring them before the Lord. They come into our churches, they c they gather, and they discuss scripture for head knowledge, but we're not doing a good job in making disciples.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Yeah, and and that's that's the part that I mean. It's it's more than just pardon me. It's more than just a dinner, it's more than just hanging. You have to be intentional, and I think I hear Pastor Tim in there, you have to be intentional about how you go about. It's a skill set almost. Jesus did it like it was a craft, like he was building carpentry. He was building lives, and and with each one, although it's a group of these guys, individually, he knows exactly how to sharpen every one of them. The only one he couldn't sharpen was Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Right. But I I agree with that, but when you look at when you look at the whole process, he did it within the context of relationship. Sure. It wasn't it wasn't sure. And I'm not just saying just dinner, yeah, but but I'm for me when I say that, that's the context of relationship, right? Right, absolutely. It's like like if I take a young person out to Chick-fil-A and just mentor them in the things of of Christ, that's discipleship. Sure. Because we're we sometimes we we make it so systematic where we remove we remove the human aspect of it, right? The human element of it. Because again, when you look at Jesus, there was no book, there was no Jesus, Jesus talked with the disciples, man. He's he ate with them. And you can't tell me that while Jesus was eating with the disciples, that he wasn't talking about his father. Yeah. And he wasn't talking about the kingdom. You know, they watched him do ministry. You know, so there was a a life context that happened there, you know, or things that happened within the life of their uh in the context of their life, walking with Jesus. And so when I say for me, discipleship has to be done, part of it anyway, has to be done in relationship. And that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Yeah, I agree with that. That makes sense because if you remember at the beginning, Jesus rarely showed exasperation. But then after they spent so much time with him, he said, How long do I have to put up with you? And I don't think because he didn't do a whole lot of teaching. I mean, that Sermon on the Mount was his greatest teaching. But he didn't do a whole lot, he did a lot of works.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

But he's saying, you know, you guys have been with me all this time. You know, that's why he says, How long have you been with me and you still don't know who I am? That comes that that validates what you said, Pastor.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

The more time you spend with them. Bishop, even when you look at our context, us sitting here right now, we've been discipled by you more, and you said it, by us having dinner. Sure. And us sitting together. Sitting together, going out and just conversation, more than having to do ministry and preaching and teaching. Yes. Where we get an opportunity to see your life outside of here is what helped us become conformed to the image of Christ.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

And that would support the concept of the one-anothering that Paul gives us. Absolutely. So real discipleship, as we shift over to real discipleship, it it comes about when we leave church. When we leave the official service. Oh, yeah. And then you say a group of us are getting together to go down to XYZ restaurant. And we're just going to sit there and talk and share. Because that that's where the strength of the church really lies in the lamb and the sheep. That's why lamb and sheep moved around in herds.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Yeah.

unknown 31:08

True.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Now, every now and then you get one that strays away. And then the shepherd goes after that one. But the rest of them were in the herd. They they fellowship, they cared. They were connected one to another. Yeah. And we lose that because our culture is individuality. I mean, the the current uh political leaders, all they're doing is separating us.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Making the the rich fight against the middle class, and then everybody fights the poor. He's got races going against each other, and we don't even see it. This systematic destruction.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

And it's in the church. Yes. All of it. Yes. All of it's in the church. When you look at the church, I think the church today, in this climate, as much as we've been we've been uh divided, I think we're more divided now. Amen, brother. I really think we're more divided now because we have we have chosen sides, especially from a political perspective. That's true. We have chosen sides, and this is the righteous side, this is the unrighteous side, this this is red, this is blue. Where our sign and symbol is the cross, not a donkey or or an elephant.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

That's true. But we can't bring people to that unless we shift their thinking. You know, we we have really treated our church services and our cultural response almost like slavery back in the uh 17th, 16th, 17th century.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Why don't we do that?

SPEAKER_01 32:30

We've almost treated well, you know, it's like the pastor's gonna lift me, the pastor's gonna do this, and so the people come into the place of worship, pastor-driven, but not caring about the person sitting next to them.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

I mean, try this sometime in your services. Ask the people when they come in. How many of you said good morning to the person you're seated next to? Yeah. Yeah. And you'll probably get a very large percentage. I tell them here at Bethel, I say, say hello to the person next to you. You know, because I think we have five. Yeah, Brian does that. And there is there is there is uh something good with that that comes out, but in order to shift us into a shifting action, we have to shift the mindset. Yeah. And our goal in this broadcast, in this podcast, if you will, is designed to make people shift their thinking.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

Yeah, yes, sir.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

You know, dealing with issues of life, dealing with uh our response to the political system, dealing with ways to build up our people.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

All of these things come out of the church because they they represent God. It is impossible to say God cares about me, but then I don't translate that care to someone else. Yeah. It's impossible to say that. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

So how do we dis so how do we disciple?

SPEAKER_01 33:46

Well, I believe that pastors don't disciple. Okay. Pastors instruct and equip. Equip, yes, sir. But then from that, yes, we extract leaders who then have singular responsibilities to gather folks together. Now the pastor has to be, you know, secure. He can't feel like, well, if I put them out there, they're gonna start a church. Fine, who cares? Then plant that church somewhere so they can go. But uh Jesus was the master of that. Jesus would gather people in and then he would identify people to do things.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

We get all these gifts and abilities in our churches, yeah, and we force them to sit and just become theological slaves to us rather than being so secure in the Lord that we're willing to say, let's go out and grab a group of people who are out on the street and just bring them in to tell them about the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Right. So we should we should be more um apt to get people to mobilize. Definitely. Okay, so that that's the end of it. Because we don't do that now. No, we don't want you to really mobilize. So good good discipleship should have the goal of mobilizing people to go and do.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

And it requires a shift of thought.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

You know, a rethinking. Yeah. When we have old archaic ideas, our churches will die of stagnation.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Yeah. Yeah. When you when you look at first century, man, they were house churches, they were small, small gatherings of people. And I think discipleship has to happen like that as well.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

And that was the best model.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Yeah, that there has to be small gatherings of people, small groups where we can put systems in place to help people grow, you know, and identify uh leaders who could lead those small groups and to help people grow because Sunday morning is not going to cut it.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

No, and we discipleship destroyed. I believe that we began the road down to destruction with the large mega churches that just bring people in because you're not accountable when you're in the crowd.

SPEAKER_03 35:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

You're disconnected when you're in the crowd. I mean, I'm such an introvert that I can be in a crowd. I can go to a basketball game and feel alone.

SPEAKER_02 35:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

So if I come to church and I feel that way, where's my growth? Yeah. Right. I'm not going to reach out to people. I'm driving this week and the Holy Spirit brings a scripture to my mind. They that want friends must show themselves friendly. And I thought, you talking to me? You know, I believe he was because I'm I mean I don't do that whole thing. My walls, my walls are like the walls of Jericho. I got an outer wall, a long hill, and another wall before you can get to me. So it is almost impossible for me to let you in. But once I let you in, yeah, oh my God.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Oh my God. To share my space. Yeah. So I think along these lines. How many people in our congregations share that same reality? Yeah. And through discipleship and addressing those concerns as we began our talk today with that individual showing that lifestyle, how how isolated do they feel? They may be struggling with it and have no one to talk to because we've already put our Phariseeal armor on. You're going to hell. Right. You're going to do such and such.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

How would we identify such a person? How do you identify a person, and and this is a very legitimate question, a person that's very introverted or a person that's just kind of stand off? How do you get that person in your congregation? Because they won't reach out. They may not.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

You reach out by creating the avenue for them to gather together with the pastor guiding the sheep and saying, everyone that has that issue, make it known. Sure. That if you're struggling in these areas, sure, I want to sit and talk with you. Okay. That's a great idea. I mean, I I I grew up with people in that lifestyle. I mean, they were good friends of mine. Never tried to force anything on me. We went to baseball games and everything together. Absolutely. And I think what God did with that, with me, that when I became a pastor, what God did was He showed me, you don't judge a person by who by what they do. Absolutely. You bring them to me through the love that's in you. Absolutely. And so that's what I encountered, moving to the pastorate.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

But it has to be a door open to give them an opportunity to come in to be discipled. Now, discipleship, right? It's again like boot camp. It's to show you those those areas of your life that need the touch of God.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

Sure, sure. A personal touch. Yes. Because that discipleship is more personal.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

Well, I tell you, this has been another great opportunity to share with you. I like this podcast concept. To give you an opportunity to hear. And I I hope there's a way for you to type in and the suggestions underneath your screen, or however, if you're on a computer, uh I don't know how the media department has this set up, but we want to hear from you as well. Maybe you're struggling with something and you've been here, and now it's time for you to shift your mindset to the love of God. Here's something I want you to realize. In the book of Hebrews, he said, Come boldly to the throne of grace. You're invited to come to God. The Lord wants you to be a disciple. The Lord wants you to be his child. He wants you out of foster care into adoption. So you can give yourself to him. You can bring yourself to the Lord Jesus Christ. And if you have a good pastor, they will help you navigate that difficult road so that you will have a life that number one pleases God and number two brings you joy. That's why we're here. And this podcast is designed to help you shift your thinking to see God differently. He's not the ogre waiting to kill you or send you to hell. He is the one who tapped Jesus and said, Go die for them. Go die for them so they can become my child. Why? Not because of anything we've done, but because of his love. So as you continue to shift your mind, as you begin to shift your lifestyle to be more in line with the word of God, we're going to pray that the Holy Spirit will touch you and bring you where you need to be in Christ. So it is our prayer that God will strengthen you, that the Lord will bless you. Amen. And that his face will be turned towards you in all that you do. So continue to shift and then find Jesus at the end of your shift, and he'll be there to help you. God bless you. We'll see you soon.