The Church in an Age of Outrage!

In this episode of the podcast, we discuss The Church in an Age of Outrage with special guest Patricia Estes, one of the senior pastors of North Palm Church. Together we talk about how believers can resist the enemy’s bait to become consumed with everything happening in the world and avoid falling into traps of anger, bitterness, and outrage. Discover how the Church can keep its mind set on Christ and walk in wisdom, peace, and discernment in a culture fueled by constant conflict.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

And I just see so many Christians who are in this disillusioned state where they're just bitter and they're outraged and they're mad about this and mad about that. But have they even asked the Lord, what do you think about this? Do I even need to be filling my mind with this? Should I even be? They're reading these tabloids and listening to these podcasts and watching these YouTube videos over these outrageous situations more than they're reading the Word of God. And then we wonder, why are you producing such horrible fruit? Fruit of the kingdom of darkness, and you are disillusioned to think you're in the kingdom of light. You're disillusioned. That's exactly what the Pharisees thought. They thought they were doing the work of God, but they were ended up crucifying their own Messiah that they had been waiting on.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

And I don't want to negate that we're at a season of judgment. We are in a season of judgment. We're in a season where I believe that justice is on the heart of God. And I believe that we're going to see that more and more. However, we also have to understand that we have to keep our hearts checked and in order. And if anytime something is driving us to hate, to be bitter, to not be able to be in a room with somebody, then we're out of order.

SPEAKER_04 1:41

Thank you for joining us today, mom.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Oh, I'm so happy to be honored. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:45

Yeah, so we have a lot of hot topic conversations on, you know, on the phone all the time. And I was just like, Mom, we should take this in front of a camera. We should talk about these important topics in front of a camera. So that's what we're going to do today. Well, we're going to try to keep the intensity down. We're going to try, but we're some intense women over here.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Your dad in. We can really go.

SPEAKER_04 2:07

Yeah, yeah. We we're going to separate you two. We're going to do one with you and one with dad.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 2:13

But one thing that worship leaders and people in ministry and even congregants, a part of churches, that we are living, the church is in an age of outrage. Everybody wants to be mad about everything. It doesn't matter. And every week it feels like there's a new hot topic for everybody to be mad about. You know, you can go on social media and you see, you know, somebody clip something out of context, and then everybody's like, you know, little trolls in the comments. Some of those we know are bots. We know they're all fake anyway. But then some of them are just true ignorance. And we want to talk about how to navigate the church being in an age of outrage, but not picking up the patterns and ways of the world. And one thing that Tim and I discussed last week was that very thing, not being um conformed to the patterns and the ways of the world, but be transformed. So we're supposed to be different. And so I'm excited to jump into this topic because one thing that we've seen in, you know, the last couple of months is a lot of exposing. And Pastor Dakota alluded to that, you know, whether it's people falling in the church and things coming out. And I want to start this conversation with asking you when you heard about, you know, and there's moral failure probably from the moment you begin ministry, you've heard of that, or even before then. How have you personally navigated that? When you hear it, what is your first reaction to those things?

SPEAKER_02 3:49

I think we have to develop a sense of um where I belong in the story. You know, what I'm seeing in a lot of posts online is that people think they belong in the position of the judge or the jury, you know, and we see them act from that position. We need see them speak from that position. And so in my life, I've learned that really most of the time I'm not even in the story. And if people will see that they don't belong in a place of speaking, they need to be in a hidden place, maybe a place of intercession. And so what I have done through the years is to take the fear of the Lord and think I don't want to put my pla myself in a place where I think I'm above falling or failure or you know, um being corrected, any of those things. And so mercy triumphs judgment. So I try to stand in in mercy and just know that I'm not the one riding anybody's ticket to heaven, I'm not any riding anyone's ticket to hell. God's doing that and he's big enough to do it. That's good.

SPEAKER_04 5:08

And so I wanted to ask you because there's a lot of people who they have this feeling of like there is this major moral failure in this church 500 miles away. And if my church in my region doesn't discuss it, I'm leaving that church. What are your thoughts on that as a pastor?

SPEAKER_02 5:29

The church should be the moral agent to its congregants and to its region and its area of influence. The problem that we're having on the earth right now is nobody knows what their territory is. And so, you know, the borders are a problem because some people don't think we should have borders, other think we should have borders. And uh people want to step in. So I like to give the analogy that if there's something going on and my neighbor's children are disobedient, and they go in their house, and then I go outside of my yard, into my neighbor's yard, into my neighbor's house, and I discipline their children, I'm out of order. Not that their children didn't need discipline, it just wasn't my job to give it. It wasn't my authority to give it. And so I think what we're seeing is this problem of uh understanding authority and territory. That's good, that's really good.

SPEAKER_04 6:30

So there, you know, there this is nothing new under the sun. Thank you, Lord, that he's taught us this in his word, that nothing is new under the sun. So that means there's a reference for navigating some of these things. And I'm reminded of the book of Romans, one of my favorite books in the Bible, is because Paul is addressing a lot of the stuff that we are now dealing with, is they were dealing with similar things in those days, and the Romans had a really hard time, the Christians, um, about judging. And Romans 2:1 says, You who pass judgment do the same things. And you always have this phrase that you like to tell us you judge other people's actions and then judge your own intentions. Exactly. That's that's the phrase you always say, and that's that I think that does lead to excuses to where we feel like I meant good by that. I meant, you know, and I'm sure the Romans felt like they meant good by that. Exactly. But then we judge other people. Well, you did this. Well, they could have meant good by that too. Exactly. So it's it's very interesting. They had um a problem with moral superiority, religious hypocrisy, and using truth as a weapon instead of a mirror. And so, um, how how would you say worship leaders need to navigate, let's say, moral failure in the church in large? Maybe it's not even their own pastors, maybe it's not even anything like that. How would you say they need to, what do they we need to be doing?

SPEAKER_02 8:03

I think our first position when we hear it, whether it we're a worship pastor, a senior pastor, a congregant, if we're a Christian, the first thing we should do is when we hear something, is not just to say that's truth, you know. Um, sometimes we just need to be silent and let some things play out. Sometimes it's just accusation. You know, look at Jesus and the accusations that went against this perfect God man. And God man. And you know, when we see it, if everybody oh yeah, he's Bielzebub and just jump on the bandwagon. And that's what we see at the crucifixion, the power of of swayed opinion that took them from Hosanna to crucifixion. And that's what we have right now. It's the power of swayed opinion. So, but then there are real times of moral failure. There are real things that should be disappointing, and it should drive us first of all to sadness, and we should hurt for God because I'm sorry, that was your son, that was he was carrying your name, she was carrying your name, and then we should hurt for the family and the people that were involved in that circle, and then we should hurt for that individual, and then that should take us to our knees to intercede. And then the next step should be wait, what do I need to build in my life that can keep me from doing that or being that or living that? And so I think our expression should be first of all to cry out and be saddened that that happened.

SPEAKER_04 9:55

That's so good. But instead, we're seeing a lot of people get in comment sections or gossiping around tables and and jumping to conclusions. And one thing that the the Holy Spirit told me before, a lot of this major exposing started taking place was he reminded me of Lot's wife when he had told Lot and his family to leave Sodom and Gomorrah because he's about to destroy it. It took them a while to leave. It the angels had to tell them multiple times. They they had a really tough time with this idea of leaving this place. So then when they finally were leaving it, the Lord gave them instructions to not turn around and look back. And what did she do? She turned around and looked back, and she turned into a pillar of salt. And the Lord was telling me, just mind your business. All of this destruction may be happening to your left and to your right, but mind your business. That's what he told me. He said, Don't be like Lot's wife. That's got to be in other people's business when I'm taking care of business. That's so good. He's the judge. We're not the judge. And trust me, I want to be a judge. You know, your name means judge. Exactly. And that's what I pointed out to my parents a long time ago. They were telling me to stop being judgmental. And I'm like, you name me literally after a judge, and you don't want me to be judgmental. Oh, but the Lord's taking me through a long process of transformation and not, you know, being like that. And so uh Romans 14 4, Paul says, Who are you to judge someone else's servant? And this chapter is addressing believers who are criticizing each other over disputable matters like the holy days or food laws. And these are things like let's not even say, let's not even say it's sin. Let's just say it's preference. It's this, this person's way too charismatic. That this person, anyhow, this, and so then they're criticizing things that are disputable, that are just they should be lesser. We we shouldn't even be working up such an intense argument over each person answers to the Lord. And so, what would you say to those people that are now taking on an accusatory spirit against the people of God just based on preferences, not based on sin, just based on preferences?

SPEAKER_02 12:23

I I think that what we have to look at is a maturity level. And um, you know, in my generation, we had the tabloids, right? And the tabloids would use clickbait, and it would be even like still do that. Uh yes, you know, headlines that would, you know, say like this person is having the baby of an alien, something like that, you know, crazy stuff. And people would go, Wow, I need to see that. How in the world did that happen? Whatever craziness it was. And that's what's happening now, but it's in a digital format. And so then that just causes us to realize that thoughts come into our mind because we read them, because we see them, because we hear them. And a lot of times I like to refer to them as intrusive thoughts. Do I even need to be thinking this right now? But these thoughts come into our mind that leads to emotions, and then from those emotions, we're expressing, you know, those feelings. And that's what we're seeing. And we just need to be thinking about why do I think I even need to say anything? And I like to look at that example in Luke, where, you know, Jesus and his disciples, they're on their way to Jerusalem. And it would have been a much, and they even sent word ahead to the Samaritans, we're on our way and um to this village. And it would have been a much easier path if they had just gone straight through that village. So they get there, and that village has a problem with the Jews. They have a problem with them going to Jerusalem. And because they have this thing in their heart, and so they look at Jesus and his disciples, who they have nothing against, but because they have against somebody else, they're saying, No, you can't come this way. And so the disciples, two of them, the sons of thunder, um, they said, Jesus, do you want us to call down fire out of heaven and destroy them? And that's what we want to do. That that's that moment. Do you want us to say this? Do you want us to do this? Um, and Jesus said, No, we'll walk around. Yeah. And that's what we've got to learn to live our lives by. No, I'm not even going to comment on that. Let's just walk around.

SPEAKER_04 14:42

Yeah, the Sons of Thunder had read Elijah's stories way too much because Elijah loved calling fire down from heaven.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

But you know, the thing that gets me about that story is that Jesus didn't look at them and laugh like they couldn't have done it. Right. Because there is power that's we have access to. And what we're we need to learn in this generation is our words have power. That's it. Our posting has power. So Jesus didn't look at them and say, Huh, you couldn't even do that. He knew the uh what they could tap into, the power of heaven.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

And but he was redirecting their thought process. Right. And so that's what I see now.

SPEAKER_04 15:25

One thing that I feel like we forget often is that the weapon of our warfare is not carnal, the spiritual warfare we're in is not carnal. And so I see, you know, Christians turning on one another instead of praying for one another. And what is so crazy to me is there are Christians who are navigating dictators and and you know regimes that keep them from publicly displaying their faith. And yet we're over here arguing online because this person maybe believes in speaking in tongues and this person doesn't, and then they're accusing craziness and amidst moral failure. So it's it's more than just moral failure because of sin. It is, you know, it is also preferences. And so then I see everybody worried about all these things. I'm like, oh my goodness. What we could be interceding for our brothers and sisters literally around the world who are having to deal with legitimate issues. Instead, we're arguing over things that don't even matter. And if there is sin and destruction over here, let God handle it. Let God handle it. And so in 2 Corinthians 10, we're told the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh. And so, Paul, he's warning against attacking and taking that, just assuming that thing of just the carnality that's just so easy, where it's slander, suspicion, personal attacks, character attacks. And we assume motivations and attack character and fight people instead of principalities. And so, what do you feel like are some of those principalities that are actually rearing its ugly head through the accusatory nature of the body of Christ turning on one another?

SPEAKER_02 17:21

Definitely a spirit of Jezebel. Um, that's what we're seeing. And, you know, but it's all rooted in pride. That that's what we're seeing right now. It's the uh idolatry of self, the idolatry of my opinion. And so it and there, and what we're seeing is people are bowing at the altar of pride and thinking that I need to get online, I need to do this because I'm so important in my opinion. And so we're missing the fear of the Lord. And that's what we need to be really praying for, for the fear of the Lord to return to the church.

SPEAKER_04 18:02

And that's really interesting because some would say that these people who are getting online and exposing, you know, you know, immoral Christians and these moral, moral failures are fearing the Lord. But the Lord sees the heart, and He He truly calls us to pray for one another. And so, you know, I I'm not gonna necessarily talk about moral failure. I'm gonna talk about the ones that continue to get online to talk about just attacking people's character when they, you know, may be legitimate, and they'll continue to get online and do that, and it can become pride. And it it's it's actually covered by a mask of, you know, I'm fearing the Lord, but really they're wanting attention and they're seeking, they're thinking that their opinions on things are more important than just praying and interceding for people. And it's a it's a very interesting thing that the enemy can then contort what you think is the fear of the Lord when really it's just a desire to get your opinion out and a desire to be praised for that opinion or a desire to feel important. And all of that can be based in in pride. And Ephesians 4 talks about let no corrupting talk come out of your mouth. So anger, bitterness, all of these things, it's corrupting and it's corrupting the bride of Christ. And so, what what do you feel like is the way forward for people? Maybe they realize, okay, I've been a little judgmental. I have been a little bit expecting my pastor to deal with things that they have no authority over. How should they go forward?

SPEAKER_02 19:46

A question you asked earlier in um if your church doesn't address this, then you should leave your church. Okay, so at that moment, what does that statement become? You become an influence, you become a teacher, you become responsible for the souls of men, women, and children. That's the the weight of what we need to understand. So if I'm an influencer and I'm saying, follow me as I follow Christ, okay, I'm the standard, I'm the standard bearer, and I'm gonna lead you. Where are you leading them? Past that statement, there's responsibility. So we have to begin to understand, take a step back and understand there's responsibility after the statement. And, you know, we have the little um um children's story of the little red hen that wanted to cook, right? The bread, and nobody wanted to help, and all of the hard work. They just want to enjoy the fruit of it. And a lot of times people want to enjoy the fruit of the clicks they get, or because they jump in, or they just feel some sort of justice. And I don't want to negate that we're at a season of judgment. We are in a season of judgment. We're in a season where I believe that justice is on the heart of God. And I believe that we're going to see that more and more. However, we also have to understand that we have to keep our hearts checked and in order. And if anytime something is driving us to hate, to be bitter, to not be able to be in a room with somebody, then we're out of order. And we have to see that. So in a church, we have a responsibility for the souls, the eternal souls of these people, and then the life that they live on earth. We want to lead them, first of all, to the gospel of salvation to receive Jesus eternal life. But then we want to lead them to the gospel of the kingdom so that they're living the abundant life on earth. Yeah, and they're le they're living for legacy. And to do that, there has to be, and that that's what most of after Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John before Revelation that's what all of that is is teaching us. How to think, how to act, how to mature, how to be the people of influence. And so as a senior leader, a pastor, apostle, whatever the title is, that we want those people to live the abundant life. So if we are helping them, so a lot of times people don't realize that you have these short periods. For some churches, they have 60 minutes to capture those people a week, or some churches two hours. And then you got some that might take a little three, four, five hours, right? But it's a limited time of influence. And what are the things that we're going to share at that holy sacred moment? And so we have to remember what we're doing. So I think stepping back and just looking at what are we doing and why are we doing it? And what is the eternal weight of what we're doing?

SPEAKER_04 22:55

That's good. And also I'm reminded of when you know Jesus said, you will know them by their fruit. So I I often remember there there is a possibility to have bad fruit, whether, you know, it's it's of the flesh, it's anger, it's bitterness, it's jealousy, whatever that is, or you can have the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, all of these things. And so we have to see like, what is this producing? And some of these justice warriors are actually producing hateful armies. They're producing fruit that is filled with hate. It's filled with um rage and it's filled with bitterness and unforgiveness when we see Jesus literally on the cross being crucified by all of these ignorant people, and he's saying, forgive them, God, because they don't know what they're doing. And that is the difference between this hateful thing that's going on on the earth versus a true Christ-like nature. Christ actually brings us together despite our differences instead of ripping us apart because of race, creed, nationality, language, whatever it is. And so I feel like we truly need to take inventory to see what is our fruit, what are we producing? And a lot of times we can say things to feel better about ourselves, and we're the most hypocritical, you know, and so we have to we have to allow the Lord to search our hearts because even our hearts can deceive our us. And we, our heart is deceptive above all things. And I'm reminded of that. We can't follow our heart, we can't follow our flesh. Our heart is deceptive, and we have to ask the Lord to search us and to know us and to see if there's any wicked way in us, and he will show us and he will make it straight and he will make sure that we are transformed, but we have to submit that to him. And I just see so many Christians who are in this disillusioned state where they're just bitter and they're outraged and they're mad about this and mad about that. But have they even asked the Lord, what do you think about this? Do I even need to be filling my mind with this? Should I even be? They're reading these tabloids and listening to these podcasts and watching these YouTube videos over these outrageous situations more than they're reading the word of God. Absolutely. And then we wonder, why are you producing such horrible fruit? Fruit of the kingdom of darkness, and you are disillusioned to think you're in the kingdom of light. You're disillusioned. That's exactly what the Pharisees thought. They thought they were doing the work of God, but they were ended up crucifying their own Messiah that they had been waiting on. And it's just like we had studied about him. Yeah. They had read about him, they had taught about him, but they couldn't see. They couldn't see him because of their own, their own disillusionment. And I don't want us deceived. I don't want worship leaders thinking that they're going to produce fruit of the spirit by working in the flesh, by getting on there, being offended with everybody, being offended by race, being offended by political agendas, being offended by this and that. You're going to have no authority in the spirit. We have to go above that. And we have to think, Lord, how are you thinking? Is there any wickedness in me? Is there any bitterness? Is there any unforgiveness in me that I'm letting out on my brother and sister in Christ that I don't even realize? Because think about Peter. The Lord had to walk through Peter through this transformation. It's one of my favorite parts of the New Testament, is when Peter had that vision about the animals clean and unclean. And the Lord said, Eat. And he said, I will never let that touch my lips. And the Lord said, Do not call unclean what I have called clean. And I just am like, there's so much that is in our own minds, cultural upbringing, whatever it is, that we call one thing, but God calls another. And we can X people out and we could be like, you know, they're, they, they just are a different culture. They don't understand. They're not like me. And the Lord is actually calling us into communion with those people. He's actually calling us, and and you've done that over and over again. You've you've told us, you know, we need to think higher. We need to, and so there have been situations of injustice. There have been situations of, you know, and you've definitely handled things differently. So how can ending this part of it? I would love to kind of you just end by telling us what are some of the ways that you keep yourself in check to think higher and not think in a humanistic way.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

It comes from beginning to understand that what I'm holding, the influence I have is not mine. It's the Lord's. So if I'm speaking on his behalf, I have to be careful that I don't speak my own thoughts. And you know, it's like that biting the tongue, not saying and doing what you want to do because the the stage is not mine. And worship leaders need to understand the stage is not theirs. Pastors need to understand the stage is not theirs, the pulpit's not theirs, um, the congregants are not theirs. We're stewards of something so precious that God has sent his only begotten son to die for. And we are stewards of what belongs to God. And when we come there, when we're at that place, it's hard to mess up because it's such it's like I'm holding this most precious gift for the God of all gods and the king of all kings. And so I think like that. And when something hurts me or something offends me, and we are in a heightened state of offense. And so we're not above that. But if it drives us into our secret place, run to the secret place, and you know, I don't think Jesus celebrated the fact that John the Baptist's head had just been cut off, you know, at that moment. And think about the spirit that had to control her. This the question came to her hey, I'll give you whatever you want, up to half of the kingdom. And this woman asked for John the Baptist's head on a platter. What? Her mom's idea. Think about it. And so that's the disillusionment we're talking about right now, that's the confusion we're talking about right now. That that we will hate something so much that we'll give up what we could gain because we're so deceived. And those are the thoughts we have to have. And so I and and I don't know how people do it without praying in the spirit, so I can't answer that. But I can say pray in the spirit because it builds us up that secret time of intercession, praying in the spirit, building yourself up. You're coming past you're bypassing your mind. We have to bypass our thoughts. That's why Jesus instructed them go stay in the upper room until. And I think we're not staying until. And so I think that's the secret sauce is just staying until we're filled with his spirit, so we can be guided by his thoughts and what he wants. And his ways are so much higher than ours.

SPEAKER_04 30:36

That's really good. Well, thank you for this. We're gonna move to our next segment where we're going to praise or pass. We're gonna react to a viral video on the internet, and we're gonna see whether my mother would praise or pass that.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Hey, so hiding in the green room after every service so nobody can see or talk to you doesn't make you a celebrity. It just makes you rude. And guy doesn't like it.

SPEAKER_04 31:00

Okay, mom, praise or pass that quick little viral video.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

Um, praise. Praise why. I mean, that's the problem. Um, I watch preachers, um, praise team members that they they like need an entourage around them because they're so special and you know, we have to protect them. And it is this spirit of celebrity that's on the earth. And Jesus was the greatest.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

Are you laughing at me? I'm thinking about these entourages.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

I'm thinking about these entrances. That is the truth. I've I've sat down and I've watched them enter. They always come in a little bit late, right? Because they have to, their entrance looks more legit if they're a little bit late. All of us underlings, we're sitting down and we're already there. We're just the regulars. And then and then they come in with all of their guard people, and because I'm really special. And I I'm thinking, well, wow, um, Jesus, the greatest celebrity of all time, um, he just was among the people and he loved well, and and he wanted to be among the people. So if our position of opportunity on a Sunday morning is to have the greatest privilege of leading a group of people into the presence of the most almighty God and seeing the awe of who he is, then we should know those people.

SPEAKER_04 32:40

Definitely, definitely. That's that's so funny though, because green room culture, I think it's fading out. I think a lot of people nowadays are understanding that that's such an ick, it's so disgusting.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

Yeah, that was my generation. We're sorry. We repent. I'm glad you repent. We repent. My entire generation, we repent because we gave you guys some terrible stuff. Tell me about it. What else did y'all give us that we had to undo? Uh, celebrity culture, celebrity culture, yeah, reading room culture, that you know, the and and buy my book culture. Just kidding. We still have that. Yeah, we still have it. But you guys are like, get my podcast or subscribe to my um what's that?

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Speaking of which, subscribe to our channel. Yeah, what is it? Stacks, what is that stack thing? Yeah, um subscribe. It's my book.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

Pay to myself. Oh yeah. And it's okay. I'm not putting that down because I I do believe.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

You're literally on a podcast.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

Yeah, and and I believe a work uh workmen should be paid for their labor. But I just believe also that um there's been this place of um not being authentic. Yeah. You know, so I think it's just a time to be authentic and and so laying aside all this junk from the past, um, you know, and and that doesn't mean that everything was wrong. I believe there was a lot right. And I believe there's a difference in in people that are pioneers.

SPEAKER_03 34:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

And so when I think about the settlement of the wild, wild west, whew. I may go to those cities now and I'm thankful, but those people paid a cost because it wasn't what it is now. And so a lot of times we'll try to judge my generation, or I'll try to judge the generation before me when they were just like in covered wagons trying to make it across the prairie to make the settlement, right? And so there we've got to appreciate what those people did, right? And and what they built. You know, and some some of them paid high price, prices to have those settlements. And so now your generation and the generation that follows you, you're gonna step into something somebody else paid a price to build. And so I think we just have to watch it all and and just be authentic.

SPEAKER_04 35:18

Be authentic, get out of the green room. So we're praising that, we agree with that, and we're not giving you those blue MMs.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

Probably not gonna pay your first class ticket either.

SPEAKER_04 35:28

No, that's another thing. When people they have to have these large, large chunks of money and first class tickets, it's an ick. Oh, that chunk is disgusting. So let's not do that, y'all. All right, next one where we're gonna answer frequently asked questions. Okay, so today I want to ask you a question since you're a spicy woman and you have some spicy woman. Define that, you know, just not for the faint of heart. You gotta be able to take the heat or get out. And so, um I'll take that. Yeah, it's a good thing. It's a good thing. Uh, there's definitely never a dull moment. And so I want to ask you in the age of outrage that we're living now, and there are people, there are worship leaders that are in all different sorts of political climates. Should worship leaders be addressing political issues from the stage? No, no, and why?

SPEAKER_02 36:31

Uh they're supposed to be leading the people into the presence of God, and so there, you know, what they may do on their private platform is different than what they do on on the worship platform. I think we have to keep worship, worship. Yeah, and so if I'm on the stage, I'm on the stage to take people into the presence of God so they can be changed, so they've been saved, healed, delivered, encouraged, make it another mile, not commit suicide, not go home and cut themselves. Yeah. Um, and so I have to protect the holy place.

SPEAKER_04 37:16

Right. So, with that being said, there are a lot of congregations that are politically divided, especially here in the US. So, how do worship leaders navigate leading a politically divided congregation? Love.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

That's it. We have to love everybody. Um, you can sit around a dinner table, like we do sometimes, and everybody has very big opinions, right? And they're differing opinions, but you can start seeing when those opinions start causing an emotional response. And then what do we do? We love above it, and Jesus challenged this all the time, you know, like those are Samaritans. And so there was this thing, you know, maybe to the Republicans, um, the Democrats are the Samaritans, or maybe to the Democrats, the Republicans are the Samaritans. That's a good example, and so Jesus didn't say, oh no, they're really not Samaritans. He didn't get into the fray of it. He just loved well. He just said, This is for everybody.

SPEAKER_03 38:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

And so the church is for everybody. That's good. And we're gonna love well. Now we have differing opinions. North Palm, our our great experiment is to see all cultures and races come together and we rally at the cross. Right. So make the cross your rallying point, right, and a political agenda. Yeah, and and we cannot separate ourselves from political agendas. We live in the world, we can't pretend it doesn't exist. Right. And I believe there's wise people God's raising up to bring unity and bring, you know, some real, real, real solutions. I think our frustration as a nation or in nations is that there are not real solutions. There are promises, but never deliverances of those promises. And so, but I believe the Lord's uh going to raise up some real people to bring some real solutions to some very difficult problems.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

But that doesn't belong on the worship stage, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 39:34

And that's really hard because there's a lot of worship leaders who probably feel like Moses is, you know, they're delivering the people, they're, you know, or they feel like um they have like this justice streak where they really want justice for whatever God's given them a heart for, whatever people group they feel like has been done wrong, or you know, just fill in the blank. And so it's a difficult thing to navigate off the stage, guarding the heart against offense against certain people that you think are doing people wrong, or that you've even seen do wrong, and not to then translate that over everybody in the congregation that meets that criteria, you know, race or or whatever it could be, and navigating the heart to where you have authority to lead on Sunday.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Exactly. And then we have to understand what is this call of justice inside of us? Um, if it is just like I feel for justice, well, good, I hope everybody feels for justice. But if I'm to be a justice warrior, what does that look like? Now, for me, we have a congregation that we lead and we say we love you and we want to protect you. And so, in and then we have a region that we are called to see it moved from darkness to light. And if something is wrong in our region, we have to step into that wrong to be the light. So there was an incident where one of the police officers in our region they were really treating someone incorrectly. Yeah, and it was wrong. But now we don't hate the police, we love the police. We thank God we pray for the police, and we want to go out there and bless the police, but we can't look away. But what's the right way of addressing it? Go to the police, and that's what we did. We went and and we saw it all resolved in real justice. But what does it take to have real justice? So I think the worship leader has to understand: is this something that motivates me emotionally enough to do something that I have to get out, and then how to be wise in doing something?

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Right.

SPEAKER_04 41:51

And so I think there's a lot of doing it in God's in God's way, not our fleshly way, because Moses felt that justice and then murdered somebody. That's not God's way, and so we that's where I see a lot of people, they're going to their carnal. In Charleston, we've had all sorts of stuff happen back in 2015. We've had the manual nine shooting where this guy goes into this Bible study at um a downtown church and murders all of the people because of their skin color. And racial that that is a that is a spirit. But how did our entire city respond was so beautiful because the family members of the victims forgave him. And I think they were Christian.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

Um the Lord had led a national movement to come the Saturday before that happened and call the city to prayer. Yeah, and it was something Doug Stringer led that, and it was very powerful. It was called the response, and it was a God assignment that he was carrying along with a group of people that landed in Charleston, and God knew what was ahead. And that prayer coming together of repentance and all, I believe, blanketed this area. And then when that horrific tragedy happened, we saw family members so empowered to say at that bond hearing, I forgive you. But more than that, before that could happen, we saw the police officers so empowered to be able to capture the person that did it. And it was almost like God was in the mixed. And then, you know, hey, we're gonna stand in. Community across the bridge. And then the pulpits. And I was so proud of our peer pastors in our city that were outside people wanting to bring it agenda-driven messages to our city. About race. About race. And come and bring it in and bring division. If a message is meant for the sole purpose of an agenda-driven, other than what the word of God says, it's a problem. But these people wanted to come into our pulpits, and our pastor said, no, we pastor this city.

SPEAKER_04 44:40

Exactly. And that's that's the difference where we saw that was God's way. It was a tragedy, it was wrong, it was racially motivated, it was demonic. But then you see people rise in the power of the Holy Spirit, and they refuse to succumb to a political agenda, and they refuse to succumb to bitterness that would then take them out. And we know the widower of the lady who led the Bible study. Yes. And he's still doing work in the city, preaching the gospel, bringing people together, and he is the sweetest person.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

And he called on you guys recently. Yeah. Come and be a part of this. Bring your worship here because worship is so powerful. And that is why Satan always tries to come against it. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 45:33

And so I think this is has hopefully been very helpful to people navigating such a difficult climate to be careful, to don't ignore the problem, but don't let your voice be the first voice heard. Go into a place of intercession and get the agenda of heaven and the perspective of heaven and then speak. Yes. And then do. Get the strategy from the Lord. Because we are not in a carnal battle. We are in a spiritual battle. And you have to have spiritual authority. And so we hope that this has been helpful. And we will hope to see you next week on our next episode of Protect the Altar Podcast.