Navigating Industry & Ministry!

In this episode of the Protect the Altar Podcast, we sit down with special guest Stephen Brewster of The Harmony Group to talk about what it really looks like to navigate both the music industry and ministry.

Stephen shares his perspective from years of experience working at the intersection of creativity, calling, and career—breaking down the tension many artists and worship leaders feel between platform and purpose. Together, we unpack the importance of staying rooted in your identity, stewarding influence with integrity, and understanding that the industry and ministry don’t have to compete—they can work together when approached with the right heart.

Whether you’re an artist, worship leader, or creative trying to honor God in your craft, this conversation will challenge and encourage you to pursue excellence without losing authenticity.

🎧 Listen now and join the conversation.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

It's easy to get intoxicated with success. Like, and that's not a music business thing, that's in anything. Like, if your church is really great at launching campuses, and you can become intoxicated with launching campuses and start doing that for the wrong reasons. It has nothing to do with dreams or secular versus sacred. It has to do with protection of your heart. Because if you are gonna trust God to make it happen, then you have to trust God when it doesn't happen the way that you planned on it happening, or the way you thought it would happen, or to the level of perceived success that you thought you would have. And so you don't get to pick and choose when you trust God. You either trust him or you don't. It's like being a little bit pregnant, it's kind of impossible.

SPEAKER_05 0:57

Welcome back to another episode of Protect the Altar Podcast. And as you can see, today we have a little different setup because we have a very special guest on the podcast today. None other than the Harmony Group, Steven Brewster. Steven, welcome to the podcast. We're so excited.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Hi, how are you guys doing?

SPEAKER_05 1:14

We are doing great, and we are so excited to have you because we have firsthand knowledge of your wisdom, your expertise, and also your anointing. Loki, people overlook that. You are definitely anointed for this industry and this time, and you've been a super, super blessing for North Palm Worship. We love the Harmony Group. And so today we want to, the title of today's podcast is When Calling Meets Platform. Because a lot of times people's callings don't take them to the platform. It takes them outside the platform, it takes them into all different realms of society, whether it's business or whether it's um education, you know, it could be whatever. But you're working with people who are actually called to the platform and to be in front of people and upfront. And a lot of times there's tension between industry and ministry. And what I love about you is they're not mutually exclusive in your mind. You navigate both so well. And so we want to pick apart your brain and how you do that because there's a lot of people in ministry who are also called to the industry and vice versa. And how do they navigate those things? And so the first question I have for you is when people hear industry versus ministry, what are they usually misunderstanding from the start?

SPEAKER_02 2:39

So, I mean, I think they're probably misunderstanding that what the industry is. Um, because the industry can be ministry. If if if you don't get caught up in all of the hype and all of the um facade and all of the ego that surrounds an industry, then um really what it is is a tool and it's an amplifier, and it can help your ministry, which is songs. We believe songs are missionaries and discipleship tools. It can amplify those things and get them further away from your church than you're capable of doing on your own. And so a lot of times I think people misunderstand the ability that the industry has to be a resource, but then simultaneously, I don't even like calling it an industry because like that is like cold and heartless. And all of the people that I work with have a heart, and most of them love the Lord, and um they they they they want like they're doing this for the right reasons, you know. Right. There's there's so much of this like facade of like how like dark and and untrustworthy the music business is, and the reality is that's true of any business. I mean, there's churches that operate that way, and so it I think we it's easy to vilify an industry when there's not names and people and emotions and relationships attached to it, and so that's easier to do. No one's gonna vilify ministry unless the ministry hurts you.

SPEAKER_05 4:36

So that's really good. So, from your experience, a lot of people may not know this, but you have been in ministry and you've also been a part of the music industry. So you have a very interesting perspective where you're able to see both worlds and navigate both, and it's been for decades, and you grew up on the missions field, and you grew up, you know, ministering to people. So you have all of this expertise and like knowledge that God's brought. And so, from your experience, what does the music industry offer that ministry spaces genuinely need? And then what does ministry protect that the industry can lose?

SPEAKER_02 5:19

Okay. I have ADD, so you may have to remind me of the second part of the question. But the first, the first part of the answer is the industry provides data, best practices, and focused effort and muscle around a specific part of your ministry. There's there's so much nuance, and it and the evolution of how people interact with um in the music side, like to get music away from your church, to to steward that gift that God's given your church and that calling that's on your church. In order to steward that, it takes a lot of really refined nuance in order to be able to do it well. And um the the industry, I guess, could prov can provide you with the specialization to help maximize that. Um the ministry is responsible to protect the anointing that God's put on that ministry, and so you have to protect the worship leaders and keep them in the right place, keep their head in the right place, keep their heart in the right place. You have to constantly remind people on the ministry side that we're doing this for ministry, not for streams. Streams are a byproduct of ministry, right? Um, you have to write songs for the person in the third row or in your small group, not to get other churches to sing your songs. If you're writing for other churches to sing your songs, you're not writing for the right reasons. And so, like the ministry's job is to really protect the purity of why you're doing what you're doing.

SPEAKER_05 7:09

That's so good. And that is interesting because you work with a lot of worship teams that are very successful with streaming and with other churches singing their songs. So you have you been in the situation where you've helped remind people of remember why you're doing this? Is that why you say that? Because there's uh there's personal knowledge.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

Yeah, I mean, all the time. I'm reminding people all the time because it's it's easy to get intoxicated with success. Like, and that's not a music business thing, that's an anything. Like, yeah, if your church is really great at launching campuses and you can become intoxicated with launching campuses and start doing that for the wrong reasons. It has nothing to do with streams or secular versus sacred, it has to do with protection of your heart. And so a lot of my time is spent making sure that we're keeping everyone aligned and balanced and their equilibrium right and their why and their purpose in front of them. Because if you are gonna trust God to make it happen, then you have to trust God when it doesn't happen the way that you planned on it happening, or the way you thought it would happen, or to the level of perceived success that you thought you would have. And so you don't get to pick and choose when you trust God, you either trust him or you don't. It's like being a little bit pregnant, it's kind of impossible. And so you have to you have to like choose. And if you're gonna, if you're going to choose that, then you have to to build to believe that that's true.

SPEAKER_04 8:54

You just took me out with the just a little bit pregnant.

SPEAKER_02 8:59

You never want to be a little pregnant.

SPEAKER_05 9:02

No, you can't, you it's impossible to be a little pregnant. You're either fully pregnant or you're not, you know, and that is so that's so good. And it is hard. And I think a lot of times, as creative, you know, there are needs, everybody has needs, and everybody has uh some weak areas that you know things can slip through where we can get out of balance. And so I think that's wonderful that you know, you God has you in so many people's lives to remind them like we're doing this for a purpose, and don't get intoxicated by the success or the the disappointment of things.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Or be just exactly don't be destroyed by the failure. Yeah, like there's gonna be times when things don't work and they don't go most of the time, things aren't gonna go the way we plan.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

Um, and the other part of it is too like I tell I try to remind every team when we start to make a project, the minute that we embark on a new project, whether it's a song or an EP or an album, the devil has decided that he does not like that. And he's going to do everything in his power to rob, steal, and destroy the teams. And there's just there's such warfare around releasing music, and oh yeah, it's it's not it's not funny, but it's comical how fast things start falling apart when people start making making music because there's not been a move of God that's happened without a soundtrack attached to it, and so so the devil knows that once you mobilize the creatives, the prophetic is is then engaged, and now something's going to happen, and he hates that. So he would like to end that before it even gets started.

SPEAKER_05 11:02

That's so good. That is so good. And the warfare, that is so true, and not giving up and believing like any lies of the enemy, like God's forsaken you. It's like, no, this is just a part of it.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

This is just part of it, it's just part of it.

SPEAKER_05 11:17

So going through this the last two decades or so or more, have you personally back off of this decade thing?

SPEAKER_02 11:27

Okay. The last three months.

SPEAKER_04 11:32

Well, you can't be an expert if you've only been doing it for three months, you know. You have to be. You know, well, some worship leaders. I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

I mean, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 11:42

Have you personally wrestled with feeling like you had to choose between industry and ministry? And then what did God show you in that tension?

SPEAKER_02 11:51

Um, so when I worked at the church, I thought that was forever. And so I did not have aspirations to do this. Um, and so I would think I really, really wrestled for the first, we've been doing this for like eight years, and so I probably wrestled for the first five years with is this ministry? Like, am I still doing ministry or am I not? And um through some mentors and a lot of therapy, I think I figured out that like I I found uh the lane of this that is ministry, and I think that we all are called to ministry. It doesn't mean that we're all called to vocational ministry. And um, and so a lot of um it took a long time to get comfortable with this is it. But now that I've like been able to put it in the right box, um I think I do more ministry today than I did when I was a pastor at a church, honestly. And with a very unique group of people, because I'm doing it with worship pastors and worship teams that typically don't have a place to go. Like in their community, they don't have a peer because they're the they're the church that's succeeding, and they can't really talk to their team about what they're going through. And if they talk to their pastor, it might cost them their job. And so, um, so yeah, I now we are in a place where we do a lot more ministry than I think we ever did before.

SPEAKER_05 13:47

That is so good, and it's so interesting because it's almost like a new you had to like go down this road that you've never gone down before. Everybody says you're either one or the other, but we need we need business in order to fund ministry, and we need you know, ministry to even have purpose in, you know, advancing the kingdom. So it's just like this really weird tension where we need both things, but it's just we make it weird. But it's like God, you have this anointing to pastor people, whether you like that or not. You're so pastoral. You are you love the creative people and you're able to just like bring the best out of them, but it's so difficult whenever you're used to the vocational thing, but then God's calling you into this whole, you know, another industry to pastor them. So that's interesting that you say you're doing more ministry now than you did in vocational ministry, because that makes total sense because you're so you're being used so well by the Lord because there's a need. And there might be other people who God calls them out to do something that looks a little bit unconventional or and the impact is really incredible. Yeah. And so, but when you're navigating all of that, there's a lot of ambition, and even like worship leaders who have desires, you know, to release music, to to be a part of the industry, to be an artist. So, how how would you help us discern the difference between healthy ambition um and true calling, especially when both can be present?

SPEAKER_02 15:30

Healthy ambition and true calling. Um well, I think healthy ambition and true calling both can exist together if it's healthy ambition. If it's unhealthy ambition, that's what's typically the anti to calling. The probably the baseline answer to that question is what is the result that you're hoping for? And then why do you hope that that's the result that you get? And and the reality is a lot of people won't be truthful with themselves about that answer, right? And so for for me, I can smell it from like a mile away. Like, I I know in the first two or three conversations with a worship team what their motivation is. And to make a right, well then they're gonna be sadly disappointed. Um but like is it is is writing and releasing worship music their pathway to the rock star dream that they thought died in their garage when their band wasn't very good? Or or are they doing it because they want to write the ministry of their church? And you can tell the difference, and and people think they're sly, like they think that they're covert about it, but the reality is it's it's like a neon sign, and and people tell on themselves so quick and they don't even realize it. And so um I would say the the the real issue is unhealthy ambition versus true calling, because unhealthy ambition will deteriorate your true calling, and it'll pervert it and it'll it'll jack it up.

SPEAKER_05 17:32

That's really good. That's really good. Okay, so practically, what does it look like to engage marketing, branding, and growth without compromising your spiritual foundation? Because this is where the worlds meet.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

Well, again, it's motivation. Why are you marketing? Like, if you're marketing to be famous or to generate streams, then that's probably the wrong reason, and it's gonna mess up your stuff. Uh, if you're marketing because you believe that God's given you something to say, and you just want to get it in front of as many people as possible, that's that's good. I mean, that's Jesus got on a boat and went out into the water so that he could speak to more of the people. In essence, the boat was marketing. And so there's nothing wrong with marketing inherently, but there's a there's definitely something wrong with your motivation. There can be something wrong with your motivation in marketing. If you're marketing so that you're you look cool, and this isn't even music. If you're posting, if you're posting on Instagram for your church just to look cool and try to compete with elevation, like then that's equally as gonna lose. Well, yes, you don't have a chance. They're the Lakers in your uh junior high basketball team. But um, but like yeah, what's your motivation?

SPEAKER_05 19:07

Right. That's so good, and that is the part, that's the part that like a lot of people aren't being, we're not being honest with ourselves, like you said earlier. It can be really hard to be honest with ourselves about like why are we doing what we're doing? And then if we're doing it to fulfill like a need that we've had since childhood because our dad overlooked us or our mom overlooked us, and we're trying to meet that need through clicks and branding and likes and you know, streams, or even worship leading, like for people to notice us on the platform, like that, those are things are the enemy's gonna use against us.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

He and then we yeah, we're all broken. We all have stuff that messed us up when we were kids that still affects us today. And so I was literally just talking to a guy last night about this. I was like, what you're looking to fill that void that no one is capable of giving you, and so you're going to continuously live chasing someone to fill that void, and every time they do, you're gonna discredit why they they they filled the void anyway, and you're basically putting a mask over your brokenness, and it never heals behind a mask, it heals in front of a counselor and the Holy Spirit and relationships.

SPEAKER_05 20:34

That's right, that's right. And there were things that even in my life, like whenever I had to deal with trauma, unresolved trauma from childhood of losing my brother and friend, that I had to deal as an adult so that I could be healthy. And like, if you walk into the music industry unhealthy, it's like you're just like this big old cup that needs everybody to fill you constantly, and no one wants to do that.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

No, people what's funny is the brokenness is usually what makes you really good at it, and so like the best artists, yeah. The best artists are are are great because they're able to access something that that normal people aren't willing to access. And and so you even have to be careful that the that your brokenness doesn't become your badge. And instead of healing it, you just use it. Like there's nothing wrong with using it, but there's something wrong with using it if you don't ever heal it.

SPEAKER_05 21:43

That's right. That's right. And that's what I've seen. And it can it can get you places when it's unresolved, but then you can't stay in those places because it's unresolved. You're gonna crumble for worship leaders or artists, they're trying to. Navigate ministry and industry. What rhythms or anchors have helped you stay grounded and faithful? What are those rhythm and anchors that you would recommend for them?

SPEAKER_02 22:12

Yeah, I mean, probably what I use to be anchored is different than what I would because my what I do is different than what a worship pastor does. And so for a worship pastor, the very first thing I would tell them is don't pay attention to the industry. Like that's not your responsibility. Like avoid it. Like don't don't even play with it. Don't be tempted by it. Don't don't even get close to the line. Just stay focused on the thing that God called you to do. Very, very few people that have a job leading worship in their job description was write and release music. It's always a byproduct of ministry going well. And so you can only control ministry. Well, you can't control ministry going well, but you can control your stewardship of the ministry that God's given you. And when you steward that, it has the ability to go well. And so that's your job. Avoid avoid the industry at all costs. Let let it come to you, let it support what you're doing, but never deviate from the reason you started writing worship songs and leading worship songs and singing to Jesus in your bedroom. Like go back to that. Keep going back to that.

SPEAKER_05 23:46

That is incredible. That is exactly what every one of us need to hear. Because at the end of the day, there are so many measuring tools in the industry to say, you know, are you measuring up? Are you doing good enough? And it's like, uh what does the Lord say? You know, are you being faithful to the Lord? But it's so you're in an interesting position because you you can actually be the person who does all of the data and like look your team look at all of the back end stuff and encourage the worship teams without the worship teams having to go and do all of that. And they could just focus on the ministry part of it. So it's very interesting because you you actually relieve some of that pressure from you know the worship leaders having to, you know, let me let me, you know, check out which song's doing the best, and let's write another song just like that song.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

And right, right. If that makes sense. Don't write that song, go write your song.

SPEAKER_05 24:48

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

Um, yeah, if you're not writing your song and you're just recreating somebody else's song, it's basically karaoke. And so, like, don't we don't need that. Like worship is a little bit weird anyway. Like, it's nine o'clock in the morning on a Sunday, and we're asking people to sing songs they've never heard before about weird subject matter like blood and and oceans and things like that. And then, like, if I'm a worship leader, my job is to like figure out how do I make this not weird or how do I make people comfortable with the weird. Because sometimes the weird is where the beauty is, it's good, but yeah, focus your energy on like hear from God about why this song is important.

SPEAKER_05 25:48

Yeah, that's really, really good. That's really good. Well, that concludes this first segment where we talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

We made it through the first segment.

SPEAKER_05 25:57

We made it, we made it through the first segment. Now, here's the next segment. It's praise or pass, where we're gonna get you to react to a viral video on the internet and see if you would praise or pass it. And so the problem we've had is that you know a lot of these worship leaders that have failed or perceived to fail. And uh so, you know, we're just gonna go for it. Let's just go for it. Hopefully, nobody is offended.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

So do I just get do I just tell you if it's passing, or do I give commentary?

SPEAKER_05 27:17

I would I would love commentary and I would love to know like why you would praise or pass it, but we're asking in the context of for other worship teams, if they were to do that, would you praise or pass that I would praise it.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

Not just because I love Kelly, who I which I do love Kelly a lot, but I would I would praise it because it's authentic and real. And like he didn't he didn't try to like act his way through it, and I think I I don't know this, but I would suspect that he earned a lot of trust with the audience that day, and he could actually take them somewhere different because they know he's like a real person who just owned a really, really awkward moment. Um so yeah, I think I think anytime no one remembers your best service, they always remember your most messed up service.

SPEAKER_05 28:28

That is so true.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

And so when things go wrong, own the wrong. Like the more you own it, and that's just that's also true in life. Like, there's even been a time or two in our relationship, like, where something hasn't gone right, and our team made a mistake, and I had to call you and just own it and be like, hey, we we we didn't we screwed this up, and it wasn't intentional, but it happened, and rather than trying to hide it or create an excuse, we have such a better relationship because we were willing to be honest and confront a hard thing with truth, and so anytime that you do that, you win, and so I mean it would be pretty disingenuous for the worship leader to act like they know the song when they're trying to lead somebody through it. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 29:26

Like they don't even know the next word, that's hilarious.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

Kelly definitely didn't know that song, so there's no way he could have even pretended he got through it. Like, my guy was he was drowning.

SPEAKER_04 29:39

He said, he said, I practiced it a little bit this week, I learned a little bit this week. He said, I'm no Morgan Wallen.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

I mean, my guy. I Kelly Robertson is one of the best people in the world, one of the most creative people in the world for sure.

SPEAKER_05 29:53

So well, the he was very creative with how he he stopped the moment, made the comments, and then kept going. Yeah, and I I think you have to have a level of trust with your leadership to be able to do that, you know. I don't think if it's your first time leading, you should ever do that.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

Well, no, you should definitely be prepared and come in prepared, but there's gonna be times when things just don't go right. And um and if if if your leadership your leadership may coach you through a little bit different ways to handle that moment, but yeah, if their coaching to you is fake it till you make it, that's probably not the best look.

SPEAKER_05 30:40

Yeah, for sure. That for sure, and so for so we praise it, especially in his context, that he was super authentic, and uh I think that's wonderful. I just think that it would be even better to like the lyrics had been up on the screen. Like, why aren't we talking about the lyrics person? That that's the real person at all.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

And that's the beauty of what he did is he didn't throw the lyrics person under the bus.

SPEAKER_05 31:09

That's true, that's true, because you could be super frustrated with the lyrics person.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

Like, what is wrong with you, dude? I mean, uh Kanye, a couple like last week, he was in the middle of uh one of his shows, and like he didn't like what the lighting director was doing with the lights, and he stopped the song like three times and like kept calling out the lighting director. Like, first off, your lyrics person is a volunteer, they do not have to be there, they can get up and walk out. Okay, and then you have no lyrics for any of your songs, so then you're really cooked. So, like the beauty of what Kelly did is he didn't throw anybody under the bus, he owned it as as it was his fault that he didn't know the lyrics, even though he knows he can rely on a on a confidence monitor. So I think that's actually part of the beauty of the moment.

SPEAKER_05 32:06

Exactly. And Joe Jonas can't remember any of his lyrics of all the songs he's ever written, so you know, he has to have a confidence monitor too.

SPEAKER_02 32:15

So if Joe Jonas needs a confidence monitor, so do you.

SPEAKER_05 32:18

So do you exactly so? What I take from this praise or pass is we pass the lyrics person, hard pass. We we hard pass and we praise Kelly, Craig John Kelly.

SPEAKER_02 32:30

We praise Kelly and we coach up the lyrics person.

SPEAKER_04 32:34

Yeah, do better, try harder.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

Why did we not catch that in run through that there were no lyrics for that song?

SPEAKER_05 32:42

Yeah, or like maybe there were lyrics, but maybe it could be a system failure. Now that's happened to us before, where literally ever the systems are literally falling apart in the back, and the lyrics person's like trying to restart the computer, doing something really fast, you know? And so we we've we've had to make executive decisions where the congregation didn't have lyrics so that the worship team had the confidence monitor because they would have to restart um the entire computer. And it was like it wasn't at a fast song, it was at a slow song, and it was like everybody was locked in, singing holy. So it was like we're not restarting, you know, we're gonna choose the confidence monitor over the congregation. Oh my gosh, that was a hard choice, but it was the only choice we could make in the moment. Was it the right choice? Maybe not, but it actually did help people stay focused in worship. I think if we were to have stopped completely and like restarted the computer, it would have been more distracting than just keep worshiping and they just miss the song lyrics, you know. For sure. So, you know, that could have been happening. So maybe not even maybe not even past the lyrics. Yeah, did you get to the bottom of it, Kelly? Did you fire the person?

SPEAKER_02 33:58

Did you figure out what happened?

SPEAKER_05 34:00

Did you fire the volunteer who's volunteering?

SPEAKER_02 34:03

I will be texting Kelly when we get off this podcast and telling him that we roasted him on a podcast today.

SPEAKER_05 34:08

So but did we roast him? I don't think we roasted him.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

I mean, no, but I'm gonna tell him that anyway.

SPEAKER_05 34:14

Yeah, maybe he'll tune into this episode. Tell him to like, subscribe, share.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

I will subscribe, share, uh, post it on IG and TikTok.

SPEAKER_05 34:24

Post it, yeah. All right. So we're gonna move to our last segment, which is frequently asked questions. Someone who's starting and they're they're wanting to release music, and their church is vibrant and God is moving and it's so amazing. And they want to start releasing music. What is your first advice to them?

SPEAKER_02 34:45

I live this probably 12 times a year. So the first thing I will do is say, Why do you want to release music? And I'll hear why they want to do it. And then um, to me, so when I was in the music business, it was really like you found an artist that was dope, the music was good, and then if if they were like they were cool and they were willing to work, then you knew, okay, I can go sign this. Well, to do worship music, there's like three or four things that have to be in place before you can even get to the songs or the quality of the worship leader. So once I've talked to them and I know that their why feels correct, then I want to know how invested is leadership. Somebody uh somebody on the lead team or the executive team or the pastor has to be in support of this because it's going to be hard, it's going to be, it's going to appear to be a distraction at times, and it is not the cheapest ministry that your church has ever started. So if somebody isn't fighting for it on the top level of the organization, there's no reason to even start. Uh, number two, I want to talk to as many of the shareholders as possible and make sure that everybody understands that this is a ministry, not a profit-generating line item in the budget. Songs are missionaries and discipleship tools. We're making these songs for ministry. The executive pastors never walked into the kids' department and asked what the ROI is on diapers and goldfish. And so we have really, really expensive diapers and goldfish when you start to make music. Okay. Number three, I want to sit down with the executive pastor and let him know that this is not going to cover its own cost for seven to ten years. Are you comfortable with that? Um now, obviously, a God can breathe on a song and that changes everything, but the reality is most of the time it's seven to ten years. I work with one group, and literally at year seven, their first song like really, really caught on to the place where it's like other churches are singing it at a volume that is like people would consider success. And then four, uh, does your church believe in the music enough to support it on social media the way it's gonna need to be supported? So I asked those four questions before we even get to the songs and the quality of the worship team.

SPEAKER_05 37:24

That is that is gold right there. I hope people are listening to this because that is gold. It you have to have everybody in leadership 100% believing that this is like almost like a mission field that your church is called to. Just as you would send people to missions, you raise funds for missions, you you invest in missions, like it's just it's the equivalent. It's the modern day mission field for a lot of people, even in our own nation. This is how we change culture. This is how we change people's lives. It's it's huge.

SPEAKER_04 37:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 37:59

Okay, so what does scaling, like streams, platform branding, what what is that be when does it become helpful versus harmful? So you talked a little bit about um in in our previous discussion about how you really advise worship leaders just to focus on on the main thing and don't get trapped in all of the data and all of the all of the streaming and all of that stuff, um, and make it about something else. But when we're talking about they're growing and scaling, like how can teams discern the line, though? Because they have to keep growing. They wanna they want to keep you know doing what they're doing.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

Good stewardship is is important, right? And so um do not hesitate to um to to lean into good stewardship and best practices around that. It always comes back to motivation. Um what is your motivation? Why, why are you doing it? Are you do you want more streams because you need um your ego like stroked? Or do you want more streams because you're stewarding what God's given you and you're trying your best to let as many people as possible hear these songs for the right reasons? So that's the it's motivation's the differentiator.

SPEAKER_05 39:24

Okay, that's so good. All right, this is my last question, and then we will wrap this up. But I just think this is such a great question. How should worship leaders think about signing with labels, management, or distribution companies?

SPEAKER_02 39:38

Every word were worship team doesn't need a record deal. In fact, most don't. More, but still not all, would benefit from a distribution, a distribution deal.

SPEAKER_05 39:53

And then the best management is the harmony group.

SPEAKER_02 39:57

Well, you said that, not me. But um like the management piece, not to be self-serving, but that's a piece that helps take some of the work off of your plate so that you can stay focused on being a pastor. And so that's probably more accessible for everyone. Um but you should allow God's favor on what you're doing to open those doors and not try to push those doors open. And so um, if your music's doing really, really well, people are gonna start reaching out to you. And that's when you know, oh, okay, there's something more to steward here than probably what our team is equipped or or educated on doing. So how do we engage that further? And uh let the momentum drive the opportunities. Don't chase opportunities to try to generate momentum because it never works.

SPEAKER_05 41:02

That's so good. That's so good. So focus on the momentum, focus on the songs, focus on your congregation, focus on what God's doing in your region, and then rest let the Lord handle and let them come to you instead of you know you chasing them. That's such great, great advice. And I think it also helps with people's expectations of everything, and where the enemy can't come in with unmet expectations, and you're so disappointed you can't even function.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

Yeah, exactly. And because that could and you again, it's back to motivation, right? Like, like if you feel like you need these things to validate what you do, those are the wrong things.

SPEAKER_05 41:44

Yeah, that's really good. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 41:49

Oh, thank you for having me. It was awesome.

SPEAKER_05 41:51

This has been so exciting and helpful and also funny. You're hilarious. I love all your little side comments. And so we hope they're snacky sometimes, but they are. They are, they're the best. So we hope that you guys have enjoyed this podcast, and we hope that you will join us next week for the next episode of Protect the Altar Podcast.