Members of Technical Staff
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Members of Technical Staff
An Update on the World of Peptides, with Max Marchione
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Since @maxmarchione and I last spoke a bunch of things have happened in the world of peptides from RFK's reclassification to Andrew Huberman posting to people discovering that bodybuilders got there first (bodybuilders drive the culture).
So max and I caught up once again to cover all of this.
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You're listening to a special edition of members of technical staff. At this point in time, they're all special editions. Every edition tends to be somewhat special. I'm here once again with good friend Max Marcioni, founder of Superpower. Basically, um we're here to talk about peptides again. And because for whatever reason, and well I say whatever reason, there's actually lots of reasons, but it continues to do the rounds on the timeline. And I personally would like to take um some credit, actually. Uh just as a little bit of credit. Again, I will, I, I will always claim the Chinese in Chinese peptides. Now, what we're gonna get into here is not necessarily the Chinese version. And I say not necessarily, we're actually not getting into the Chinese version at all. We can actually talk a little about the different uh suppliers, black market, grey market, all of these sorts of things. But most of all, I want to get into the timeline because that's where all of this stuff is living. I mean, Max and I were just like kind of texting yesterday. I was sending him clips from uh Huberman's pod, like all of all of these sorts of things. Like the the the noise continues to get louder and the uh like stuff continues to happen. So I guess the first uh actually a cool place to start, I think, is actually the the RFK regulation that was sort of uh, well, I mean, just so many things were happening at once. Uh any initial thoughts? Well, I mean, first of all, I mean, welcome again, and I'm welcoming you it's your office. Um so naturally, I'm welcoming you to my show. Uh, but you know, uh, thanks for having me as well. So there's that.
SPEAKER_01But RFK, RFK. This guy's been getting into the peptide for it. For the creatine peptides. I appreciate it. Creatine's a peptide. Um, this is true. This is true. So in 2023, um, several of these peptides were moved from what's called category one, meaning that they're allowed to be compounded in 503A compounding pharmacies, to category two, meaning they're not allowed to be compounded. This includes things like BBC157, thermos now, CJC IPA, which like increased growth hormone, and on Joe Rogan's podcast, of all places. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, everything happens on podcasts. I mean, why do you think I do what I do? Yeah, it's just uh to to influence the niche culture. And in in this particular case, it is to simply, well, um, influence uh different health classifications for uh compounds. Yep. So hey, maybe Motz gets there. We'll see.
SPEAKER_01Totally. And RFK said these category two peptides in coming months might be moved back to category one. Sure. Which is really interesting because it means uh all of the people talking about peptides buying them from the gray market can soon potentially get them legally made by compounding pharmacies uh in a way that is presumably safer, can to an extent be marketed, uh, and uh that's gonna be massive, right? We've seen the the impact of one peptide on the world, GLP1s, and now we're gonna have several of these at a time when they're really in zeitgeist, uh, again being legal to compound.
SPEAKER_02Totally. So when you say like um they they were they were they were they were classified in 2023, does this mean that they were that that what RFK is doing now, was that in place before 2023, or is that something different?
SPEAKER_01Correct. So that there was a time when the peptide laws were far less stricter. Many of these things were legal to compound. Yeah. Uh so people talk about the the massive risk of these peptides and how they're gray market and black market and Chinese supply chain. What many people forget is these were legal at some point in time.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Many of them are legal in other countries around the world. Even today, a doctor can technically prescribe them. Yeah. Right? A doctor is not prohibited from prescribing these compounds. Yeah. Right. So I think they're often seen as these uh random drugs biohackers are buying on the internet, but that's not really the reality of what's happening.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So what why do you think the popularity, I mean, like if it if it was much easier to get back then, and I'm actually coming up with these questions fucking on the fly because I'm actually quite curious. Um, but like why do you why do you think the the uh like they weren't as popular back then compared to now? You think it's just like you think it's like a Twitter thing?
SPEAKER_01You think it's like it's it's it's all GLP1s. GLP1s have made injecting normal and have made peptides normal, have created awareness for the category. Yeah. Ten years ago, how many people had injected themselves with any medication? Close to zero. Bodybuilding bodybuilding. Um probably sub 1% of the population. Now one in five Americans has injected a GLP1.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_01Right? Which is crazy. It means injecting is a normal way to deliver medicine. And the second that happens, we open the aperture to all sorts of other peptide therapies that cannot be delivered via a tablet. The breakdown in the gut, but can be delivered via injection. GLP1s have made people feel comfortable with it, have made people feel that it's safer, have shown that peptides are a real kind of class of medicine or class of therapeutic.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I think that's a big part of it.
SPEAKER_02Totally, totally. Hey, you know, kind of um, I mean, we're talking about injecting, also comes back to bodybuilders. Totally. I think that it's funny because the bodybuilders, um, and again, I don't, I don't say this uh personal experience. Uh the the the if we're if I'm getting into steroids, that's something that I will not touch. Um, maybe when I'm like 40 or something. Uh, but we shall we shall see about that. But basically, yeah, I mean, even even in gym circles, right? It's like like the reason everybody has been injecting in gym circles is because of like, you know, taking oral anabolic steroids. I mean, such liver toxicity, right? So the bodybuilders, they knew. They knew. At least, and you know, I don't really know much about, you know, like, I mean, that might be a question for you actually. Do you know of any sort of like liver, like, like it, like, is there any sort of difference between taking something like a like a like an oral peptide? Would you say that there's more liver toxicity, more risk for the liver uh with that sort of thing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, what one of the reasons why it's hard to have oral peptides is because they they break down the gut and they don't enter the bloodstream and they don't hit the receptors they're targeting. Another reason is that liver toxicity, the the extent to which the liver has to work, is far higher. Yeah. Um, I I again I could have decided slightly wrong, but I believe when you're injecting something, the liver doesn't actually process it in the same way as when you're consuming it orally. So that's part of it as well. And then on the bodybuilder point, it's fascinating, right? Like I made this tweet that said uh peptides start in SF and then go to Hollywood and then the mainstream. But the reality, the important correction is it starts with the bodybuilders. And I think that's because bodybuilders have the imperative to enhance themselves, to improve. They have a bigger risk appetite. Yes. And this theme of enhancement is like uh, I think gonna be a trend of the next decade and beyond, right? We see it in sci-fi books, and now that world of sci-fi is becoming a reality. And we're confronted with an AI that is surpassing humans in intelligence. Yep, right? A natural human response, a very Darwinistic response is to find ways to enhance the human biologically. And peptides do that. Right. They're not necessarily about sickness, they're often about making people kind of better. A friend of mine joked that uh the the way you find the compounds that you want to define in the future is you look at the water list, the World Anti-Noting Association list. And it's actually an interesting insight, right? Because when something's on that list, it doesn't necessarily mean it's bad for you. It means it's understudied, under-researched, but people use it for some sort of enhancement benefit. And therefore, it's interesting as a starting point to form a therapeutic hypothesis.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I believe actually BPC is on the water ban list. Uh yeah, it is, I believe. Yeah, yeah. Yep. I mean, I mean, just on the bodybuilding point, just wanted to bring up a tweet of mine from last night. There we go. So I actually said, and I said, I, and I'm gonna continue this theory, but I basically said SF culture is downstream of bodybuilding. Biohacking, bodybuilders did that. Peptides, bodybuilders, bad ratios, bodybuilders, autism, bodybuilding, actually. Uh, hormone replacement therapy. You guessed it. Bodybuilders. Now, I mean, you know, sort of take that as you wish. I again, I'm saying that. Max is certainly not. Um, the comments for this was pretty funny. Uh uh, Will Brown was like wearing free giveaway branded t-shirts. It's fun, right? Yeah, yeah, totally. Uh Jeff Tang was like, not talking to girls. I meant, yeah. Um, uh, my friend Anne, she was like, drinking your meals.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. It's crazy.
SPEAKER_02Like that sort of thing. Um homosexuality, you better believe it. It's bodybuilding. Uh so you know, I I think, I think people get a kick out of this, and I think it'll be something that I continue to touch on. Again, a little bit of a side tangent with all of that, but you know, I really appreciate that SF culture is starting to, you know, make a note to bodybuilders, whether it be like peptides or forums. Bodybuilding.com. I looks maxing. People, uh, people in SF now, they know who Ziz is. Insane. I mean, we knew who Ziz is, but you know, we're also from the same place as him. I digress, I digress. I just wanted to hammer home that point. Uh, justice for the bodybuilders. Okay, so moving on here, um, of course, another thing that has been happening on the timeline, as is all cool things, uh, was uh Huberman's appearance on the A60Z podcast. Now uh he was talking about, and I'll actually get this up here. I think my laptop doesn't autoplay, but you know, if it does, that'd be kind of funny, and we'll leave it in. Uh so if I bring this up, uh he was talking about there's this good clip here, he was talking about the personalized peptide stacks. So he says, uh, so so uh the caption reads, personalized peptide stacks could become as normal as vitamins. Andrew Huberman on where supplements are heading. So he says, in five years, you and I are gonna have a little cocktail. It's going to be one injection or one pill. Whatever I need to ramp up my dopaminergic system a little bit to make sure I'm getting through uh getting enough micronutrients. Maybe I'm gonna put a little clotho in there to protect me against Alzheimer's. Did I say that right? Yeah, yeah. There's a capital K. I actually have no idea what that is.
SPEAKER_01People are using to make themselves smarter. Uh-uh. The biohackers are flying to fucking Honduras to get this. Okay, I had no, I actually had no idea. There you go. The studies are really robust in it. Uh this is probably the most interesting thing we've seen for Alzheimer's. Really? The thing that's crazy about this statement by Andrew Huberman is not that it's like false. I think it's an accurate depiction of the future, but that um we're using peptide as a word to stand in for prescription drug.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_01And we're seeing him say prescription drug is analogous to a vitamin where everyone has their classic prescription drug stack.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And that breaks our model of understanding of a medicine or a drug because we've always seen a medicine or drug. If something is wrong with me, I'm sick, therefore I need to fix it. And what we're seeing is the opposite, which is I want to be capable of more, therefore I have some sort of stack. Yeah. Right. And I think it's inevitable. Again, it's salwinistic. Um, and if we want to predict the future, we can start by looking at the bodybuilders, the biohackers, and the billionaires. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the bodybuilders, the biohackers and the billionaires are doing this already. So the whole meme of the future is already here, just not evenly distributed.
SPEAKER_02Totally, totally. Yeah. And so uh, and just to finish up his quote, he says, yeah, all of that stuff going to be complex, kind of like what you're saying, right? Uh the same way that people are not afraid of vitamin D or they're taking some creatine or magnesium. So again, what what you've what you just said, right? So yeah, and he says, yeah, I think most everyone is going to be doing that. You actually quote tweeted talking about how you think there's going to be like a machine that does this.
SPEAKER_01If I didn't put it time, one of the companies I'd love to start. Yes. So if anyone's out there, anyone out there has an idea and wants an idea, feel free to do this. Uh, yeah, I'll happily invest my my lack of personal savings with a hundred dollar check.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um the the the idea is I think there'll be a machine in the home that has different vials of peptides, and depending on what you want and need for the day, it constitutes these these vials of peptides into a single syringe, or maybe a couple of syringes that you inject with your peptide stack for the uh I was chatting with one of our investors who said on the weekend she's with a handful of other kind of founders and investors, and some of them are injecting them five times with five different needles in the morning and to draw that into the syringes to measure it out to know the right amount of water and the right units. It's painful. I think a machine constitutes it for you into an injector pen, you inject, you press a button, it's done, you have your pen. I think that will probably happen.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. With with those, actually, with those pens, do you do you you don't develop like scar, like because I know with in bodybuilders, again, that's my my reference to the whole thing, but if you're constantly pinning, like you're developing like serious scar tissue. Yeah, it continues to make it harder to pin.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so an insular needle is it looks at least 10 times smaller than a um uh um intramuscular injection. Yeah. Um and the insular needle, as far as I know, does not develop scar tissue. An IM injection will.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool, cool. Yeah, yeah. Again, this is just like a bodybuilder curiosity here. It's like all the things on bodybuilding.com. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Now look at that. I think depending on the amount of time someone injects, maybe a die. I don't know. Like I think that there are still unknowns, right? But then we'll have the peptide to get rid of scar tissue. Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02And you have the machine that only that that you you know means you only do it once. Uh and so yeah, no, no, I think totally, totally makes sense. I think um, I think another thing, so uh, and again, Huberman talked about this in this particular podcast as well. And it's it's also something that like I like to hammer home as well, because as like as much as as much as, you know, and as as we've spoken about before, and I've and I've commented, and you know, people like I've been featured in press for uh for for being much more uh risk averse on this sort of thing. But I think I think something that that everyone can agree on, and I think the same thing uh goes for like a lot of fitness influencers, right? There's a lot of uh like my favorite fitness influencers tend to be the most transparent about what they're using and also the tr most transparent about like cool, well, you know, if if this is gonna be something you do, like don't get it from the guy in the fucking like gym bathroom who's you know got sketchy ties to like some third world country. And I think, you know, and and Huberman was talking about uh black market, grey market, and compounding pharmacies. So, and you know, and I mean I think just in the name, you get a pretty clear idea for ready cli uh sorry, can't even fucking speak. Uh not been running on much sleep. Probably need a peptide for that. But basically, yeah.
SPEAKER_01There is a peptide for that.
SPEAKER_02So I've heard, so I've heard. Basically, um, yeah, I think you can get a pretty clear idea as to the difference uh in the reliability, right? Black versus grey versus compounding pharmacy. They actually sound like one gets better than the other. But he did give some credibility to the grey market. I wonder if you have any thoughts on that.
SPEAKER_01So the grey market is just a nice sounding way to say black market.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I agree. The gray market is not legal. Yeah. Right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like I would I would say that like he was, you know, he he he it to me, and again, I'll say this. Um, but to me, he went, he was pretty soft on gray market.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So um there are three main places someone can buy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You can buy directly from the supplier in China. Um, people might call that black market. Yeah. You can buy from what's called a research use only pharmacy. And that pharmacy, um that that or research use-only company. That company is an e-commerce company that sells these peptides um to researchers. Uh, that's why it's legal. You're selling it for research. Now, people are going to these websites and buying it for human use, which they're not meant to do. Um, that company would say, we are not intending this for human use. We have put many disclaimers in place to show it's not for human use. Yeah. There's nothing that implies intent for human use. The people buying it have the liability on them, not on us. Yeah. That's equivocal, right? I think most of these companies, if the FDA decided to start cracking down, most of them would be in a lot of shit. Some of them are handing out affiliate codes, affiliate codes, discounts. Like, yeah, yeah. That is really risky. I don't know why those founders are doing that. Yeah. I think they're in for shit the second anyone decides to kind of put the spotlight on them. Yep. Um, so that's gray market. Gray market is not, I don't recommend it, it's not legal. Yeah. I don't necessarily think it's unsafe, depending on uh the quality of how it's being made. Because the way it's often made for researchers is that is the exact same way it would be made if it was sold for humans, if it were FDA approved, if it was legal for compounding. So the compounding pharmacy part, uh, compounders are not allowed to make these compounds for humans. Yes. So, compounding pharmacy part, often the same compounding pharmacies that would make it for humans are making it for the researchers. Yes. Right. So it's the same supply chain. They're buying the same active ingredient, API it's called. Yes. They're using the same kind of fillers, but they're just not meant to be selling it for human use. When these become legal, there's kind of call it two stages of legalization. There's category one, which means compounders are allowed to make it on a patient-specific basis, and doctors have slightly less liability prescribing it than they have today. Noting doctors will still have a reasonable amount of liability prescribing it. The next layer of like legalization is FDA approved. FDA approved is very hard for these things because uh it means uh it's three trials, yeah. Tens to hundreds of millions of dollars spent on that, five to ten years of research. The second something is FDA approved does not mean it's necessarily safer and more efficacious than it is today. Yeah. It means that it has been studied more and that the risk for a doctor prescribing it is lower. So FDA approved primarily protects doctors and to an extent protects patients because it means we have more human data.
SPEAKER_02Totally, totally.
SPEAKER_01And these things aren't going to be FDA approved anytime soon. What RFK has said is not their FDA approved. He said compounders are allowed to make it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh FDA approved will require someone to research it, which requires someone to be able to patent it for the commercial model to work. And that commercial model apparently doesn't work because you can't patent the actual active compound.
SPEAKER_02Sure. I I guess um like like where where my mind goes to this um is would be something like, okay, um, so so compounding pharmacies are allowed to are allowed to make them again. Um, like what about something like uh like a like a red atruit in which Eli Lilly is going to be making? And then it's like, okay, uh, like given that I could get it from Eli Lily, like why would I get it from Eli Lilly versus compounding pharmacy? Would the difference just be in price? Or is there is there sort of like a is there like a regulatory hurdle there as well?
SPEAKER_01So here's the let's call it a loophole. Uh a le to date viable legal loophole that many companies, uh, until recently, HIMS, etc., have used to compound tazepatide and semaglutide, which are the precursors to retitrutide. So what they say is if you're not infringing on the patent and you're not breaking marketing laws, if two things are true. So a 503A compounding pharmacy is allowed to make uh uh allowed to make retitrutide, and a doctor's allowed us, for companies allow to say like two things are true. One is it's not essentially a copy, um, and two, it's made in a patient-specific basis. So the arguments that the telehealth companies use is this is patient-specific because we've taken a dose of a Zempic, essentially, that is not the dose that's FTA approved, but then a middle dose because this specific patient needs the middle dose. And then they've said it's not essentially a copy because we add some other things. We might add vitamin B12 or something else to it. Yeah. And if we look at at least the case law to date, uh no company has been, at least in any determination in court, been held liable for that. Eli and Nova, though, are ramping up the aggressiveness at which they're suing companies for who are doing that. Okay. There's far more risk than before. The FDA is cracking down because Eli and Nova are also pushing on the FDA to crack down for obvious reasons, which is that they have drugs that spent hundreds of millions developing. Sure. Um, so there's still a lot of a lot of risk there. Retitrute, I think, is going to be hard for any company to sell using this legal loophole. Yeah. Because Eli is just going to sue the crap out of anyone who does it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, fascinating, fascinating. Cool. So I think um, and actually, you know, it kind of goes to my, to my to my next point, right? Because I mean, you know, I think, I think now, like, as far as I'm concerned, right, the the the genie is out of the bottle, or whatever the like, you know, whatever the fuck people say. I love sayings like that. It's like genies out of the bottle, more than one way to skin a cat. Right. It's like another one of those weird sayings. It's like, why would you actually even want to skin a cat? Yeah. I mean, why would you actually like like maybe you actually want to keep the genie in the bottle? Like these are these are um it's a side point, but I just wanted to um, I I really just wanted to think about that for a second there. But the authorities in the space, right? Because now that the genie is out of the bottle, now that there are more than one way to skin a cat, as they would say, uh uh, is basically like like uh the authorities in the space. So we're talking about sort of like, well, Eli Lilly, you know, the the the larger companies, right? Uh and like compounding pharmacies, grey market. Um, would you say that there are any authorities in the space at all? Right? Uh authorities around regulations, say like I would say, so I would say with this, I would say with this, it's like, like, are there any like reputable compounding pharmacies? Or like it's like like would people is there any reliable place for people to even go just today?
SPEAKER_01To get peptides, yeah. Uh so there are many telehealth companies that will sell compounded GLP1s online, yeah, and that is still deemed legal. Yeah. Um uh HIMS is obviously popular, Henry Meds is popular, um, etc. There are many places to go to get the branded medications at Zempic, Monjaro, Zetbound. Those companies partner with Elian Novo to distribute their drugs, or you can get them directly from Eli Novo.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then if you want the the uh gray market peptides, there are a handful of research use only pharmacies that people go to online as well. The the one that was the most famous was peptide sciences. Yeah. Uh rumor has it they were doing three, four hundred million in revenue, but they recently closed up shop and saw that voluntarily. Yeah. Um the the market's read on that is they aren't doing that because they've been forced to, they're doing that ahead of court cases. Sure. They don't want to be in court cases. And even if the court cases uh don't actually find any any grounds, they don't even want to spend the money fighting the court cases. They want to take the money and and be kind of be done with it.
SPEAKER_02Totally makes sense, totally makes sense. And again, the reason why I ask even a question like that is because, again, genies out of the bottle, people are gonna do this shit anyway. And so it's like, as far as I'm concerned, it's a bit, it's kind of a bit like the Jim Bro stories, right? It's like, it's like, okay, well, you know, I can I can be as risk diverse as I want on camera or on Twitter and you know, a bunch of us, but it's like this has such, you know, such like there's such cultural pull, right? And it's like people, people are gonna do this. And so it's like, okay, as far as I'm concerned, it's just down to risk mitigation now. Because it's like, I, you know, who who am I? Who am I, the the Jim Bro guy to be like, yeah, like don't like maybe maybe think twice. I mean, people are not gonna listen to me, people will make their own decisions. And you know, they they they can they can do that.
SPEAKER_01So it's like, oh, I have the the CEO of a large insurance company in the US coming to me saying, Max, where do I get peptides? Yeah, right? No, like this is trad health people wanting peptides. RFK takes peptides. I wouldn't bet Trump is on peptides. Uh uh, I would bet Biden is probably on peptides or should be like creatine peptides. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Give the man create. It's good for neurodegeneration. I'll go to Biden's. And then my my my I'm being facetious, but my point here is that um the the very kind of people who might regulate peptides and and not allow peptides are potentially also using them. Yeah. Right? The very kind of people who who run the traditional health systems are using them. And what you're kind of saying is that genie is out of the bottle. Consumers have realized that they are willing to make the risk-reward trade-off, and therefore we'll seek them even if we're in this gray market at the moment.
SPEAKER_02Totally, totally. Cool. So I think to wrap here, I want to just go over a few tweets, right? And I think that a couple of them are actually kind of funny. Um, but basically, basically, so so a few of a few of these, um, some of them are covering risks, but there's there's one, there's one that's in particular that I find really, really hilarious. I will start with TJ's one because you guys had an interaction. Yeah. Um so he said, the year is 2034, all of America's greatest entrepreneurs and athletes have died of aggressive peptide-induced cancer. I don't mean to laugh, but you know, he's obviously, he's obviously uh, you know, there's a there's a bit of exaggeration there. I tweet like that too. We could have never seen this coming. The mouse data looked incredible. Now, of course, he's sort of poking fun at the lack of data, right? And you you actually responded to this with uh, you know, some some like BPC stuff. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, any any any other any other thoughts uh beyond like what what you tweeted?
SPEAKER_01Uh TJ will be on peptides eventually. Oh yeah. That's a big one. So love TJ, and I think he makes a really valid point, yeah, which is there are risks uh associated with peptides. Yep. Some of those risks might be immunogenicity, might be changing how cells grow. Yeah. Uh one of the potential impacts of that could be cancer. Yep. And there are lots of things in the world which are carcinogenic. Right? You could make the argument that increasing protein intake increases mTOR, which increases cancer incidence. Uh, you you could make the argument that the red meat does does the same thing. You could make the argument that teflon pans do that, or polyester does that. Right. So there are like lots of these arguments for things you can say this the sun could cause. So like the valid arguments here, and then the question is relative to all of these other things, do peptides have a higher probability of causing cancer? And the answer is like probably yes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was gonna say, compared to what you listed, like like the mechanism in which it uses is very different. So I'd probably say yes to, but like, you know, it's it's it's sort of like one of those things in which But but but here's the thing, right?
SPEAKER_01Women will take uh estradiol and progesterone. Yeah. Easterine and progesterone. And we know one of the risks, one of the cited and quoted risks of that is it can increase the risk of breast cancer. And that's a known risk. And there are millions of women around the world who know that risk and decide they still want hormone replacement therapy. Right? So all of these things are like risk-reward trade-offs. So I think where we need to get to is we have the data to allow people, doctors, uh, and individuals to make an informed decision about the risk relative to the reward. Yeah. And many things have risk relative to reward. And the question is, we just need maximum data to be able to actually, actually make that argument.
SPEAKER_02Totally, totally. So I another another one that I want to get into. Um this one was this one I found kind of interesting. Um, when I say interesting, uh a little bit funny. I don't know if you saw this one. Uh so this is from a guy, uh Dr. Xing Yong, uh, Xingjong Yong. Uh he says, we initially thought GLP1s like azempic, tozepitide, rediscide, just reduced food cravings. Now uh now we know they work for alcohol, cocaine, gambling, and other addictions too. But do you know what runs on exactly the same circuit? Falling in love. Um GLP1 receptors sit in the exact same brain regions that light up when you're in love. The insane thing about them is that they don't just suppress appetite, they suppress wanting in general, including romantic craving another person. Something like 60 million plus people are now on anti-desire drugs, and it happened in the blink of an eye. I predict in the coming years we'll see people on these drugs be less able to fall in love. We will also see them fall out of love or be unable to feel it in relationships that were previously great. If your girlfriend or boyfriend started taking GLPs and your relationship started failing, there's a good chance that's why. Um, you know, that's a pretty big claim. Uh I'd I'd, you know, it popped up on my timeline. 7.6 million views. I um I have a feeling that's not exactly right.
SPEAKER_01Uh we have a lot of people who understand one small part of a mechanism of a broader system and make a claim. Um this is similar to the BPC, like being mongerers at the moment. They look at one small part of the system and say, plausibly this could have this effect. Sure. But the BBC argument is you increase angiogenesis uh and that increases blood vessel formation. Yeah. That is blood vessel formation, and that improves growth and healing. And they say, well, that could do the same thing for a tumor cell. And then we see the same thing happening here, which is we see GLP1s can blunt dopamine response or craving and desire. And then just extrapolating that to something we haven't seen.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01My response to these things is look, we could do a formal study. The catch is a formal study is still going to be a couple of thousand people, not millions, right? And studies often uh are not replicable. Uh, study design is often poor. So even a study alone doesn't necessarily give you the data to conclude in in one direction or the other. The thing I like to look for is what is happening empirically in reality, right? A large, large amount of empirical data is actually quite interesting, right? And and for some reason we take a study with a sample size of a hundred as like ground truth, and then like empirical data among millions is no, that's not a study. Like, well, I don't know. There's something to be said about empiricism. The empirical question I'd ask for BPC and for the for this one, GLP1's killing desire is the same, which is of the hundreds of people I know taking BPC, have I seen a single one of them get cancer? No. Yeah. Of the And who'd been asked this question on the time. So of the hundreds of people I know who have taken GLP1s, have I seen any of them cite that they they they don't have desire for for their for a romantic partner anymore? No. Yeah. Like, and there might be edge cases, right? There might be someone who uh feels less desire for a romantic relationship and is on a GLP one and someone goes, the GLP one calls. I'm like, hold up a second, you're eating less, your hormones might be out of balance, you might be grumpy from eating less, um, uh your testosterone might be down if you're having less saturated fat and that can moderate desire. But until I see large amounts of empirical evidence of people saying this, I think these claims are really, really stupid. And look, the reality is if someone takes a GLP1, they lose weight, they feel great, and then they realize that they feel less desire, try stop taking it, stop taking it, see what happens. It's like you can stop these things, right? It's not like they're permanently modifying the way our brains work. Totally, totally.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think I think my I think I basically agree with all that. I think I think my my only pushback is on the BPC, but basically, as far as I know, um, and at least like from because I've I've I mean again, yeah, BPC is probably the one that and thymosin is the are the two that I'm generally most curious about. BPC, I I see the risk being in those that basically just like stay on it all the time. Um you know, as far as I'm con as far as I'm aware, the the the mechanism as to which you know could promote you know tumor growth, cancer growth. I mean, yeah, you're obviously wanting not probably not going to want to take that if you have a history of malignasies, those sorts of things. But um, you know, if you're using it for short periods of time, which if you're trying to heal an injury, I think that's way less likely to happen. Uh from the way that I see it is if that you're always on, then your risk goes up pretty significantly. So I always like I actually like to make that distinction when it comes to the use of BPC because I I think I think it kind of it kind of accounts for both. It's like, okay, well, you know, like it's it's a very, very temporary increase in the thing that could cause the thing. So therefore, if you just use it to heal something and stop, which is probably, you know, if you're gonna take it, I'm not suggesting that anybody takes it, but if you're gonna do that, that's probably that you know, that's how bodybuilders have been doing it. Bodybuilders don't stay on BPC. Um, for whatever reason, uh it seems to be a thing in you know, some more neurotic circles where it's like, cool, I'm gonna blast and cruise BPC. And I'm like, why? Why? Are you trying to heal? Or are you just like, is this like a recovery, like prevention? Granted, some athletes have done this, and now I'm kind of just spurging out about it. But um, you know, again, it's like it's one thing I'm curious.
SPEAKER_01So I think um I think this is true of most things, right? Which is like most compounds which have some benefit also could have some negative, and you don't want to save them for a lot of painkillers. You probably don't want to stay on for a long time. Some people say they increase cardiovascular disease, yeah, or liver toxicity as well. Liver toxicity. Uh I won't have large amounts of BCAAs, right? Because they could increase cancer risk. Uh there are periods I will have a low amount of BCIAs, branch-strained amino acids, right? Leucine in particular.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh if I'm trying to achieve some sort of acute goal, I might pump leucine, but I'm I'm not doing that for extended periods because of the impact that could have on increasing malignant growth. And I certainly think peptides sit in a similar category, which is like if there's a short-term benefit profile which is massive, that might outweigh your assessment of the risk. Yeah. Right. Uh if you're doing it all the time, the benefit profile likely goes down. And the risk profile goes up. So that risk reward trade-off might no longer make sense.
SPEAKER_02Yep. No, totally, totally makes sense. Totally makes sense. I'm just wondering here if I have um if if there's any more that are interesting to go over. You know, I think, I think just I think generally, you know, like let me see, let me see. Yeah, honestly, I think that pretty, I think that pretty well covers it. You know, I was gonna I was gonna pull up some shit on the fly and say, you know, what what else? Like, how much more of the timeline can we scroll while on camera? Um, and again, that's our right to actually do that because everything's on the timeline now. But um, yeah, you know, while I've got while I've got um the the founder of Superpower here, you want to do my ad reforming? I mean if you I want.
SPEAKER_01Get peptides. So you're not supposed to say that. Um we we we have uh creatine and collagen and GLC1s. Yeah, uh like there are there are there are many things which are peptides. Um and when when other peptides become legal, we we will sell them and we'll launch a wait list for that soon. Um what we to do today is primarily blood testing. Yes. Um it's my view that most people, rather than getting an annual physical, should be doing comprehensive app testing. Yep. Right? Your primary care doctor does what, 20 biomarkers, 30? Yeah. Uh it's actually a pretty basic panel, and they miss a lot of things that I would really want every single person I know to test, because they can help you detect things, prevent things, optimize things. Yep. Uh yeah, most of uh most of our members who get the test improve, most discover something wrong. Just about all of them improve their numbers. Yeah, many feel better. Um every every Friday we share like stories from from members who are impacted. And we have the most crazy stories of people saying, Oh, I was in a dark place, now I feel far more energy. I didn't know why I was tired all the time, and now I feel way way more alive. And it's just discovering small things. Vitamin D is out of range, homocysteine is high, APO B, the kind of heart disease marker, the lipoprotein A, the genetic heart disease marker is high. And you can address these things when you see the data. So that's kind of where we started. Um, lab testing, telling someone what to do about it, and yeah, I I love it as a product.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think what that what that's solving, right, is like if you were to, you know, I mean, like that not not everybody is so uh so tapped into what they should even get tested for. Because you can go into a lab, you can go into a lab corp, right, and you can order these tests one by one. Maybe, you know, if you want to try and test testosterone, it's probably gonna it's probably gonna cost you one, like 200 bucks for like one of these markers sometimes, right? And I think the the the problem with so many that actually want to test this stuff is they don't actually necessarily know what to test.
SPEAKER_01We literally had a member the other day say, um, I discovered you because my doctor ordered tests for me, and the lab was gonna charge me$2,000 for it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then they're like, I came to SuperPower and I found that same test with more markers for$199. Right? The the cost structure in healthcare is so fucked up. Yeah. And when you just cut out intermediaries, you can really, really drive the cost down of something that used to be kind of a rich person thing and make that for everyone. For sure, for sure. Perfect. Well, I think that's a good place to wrap up.
SPEAKER_02And again, I was gonna say, Max, thanks for coming, but again, it's your fucking office. So thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01You're welcome anytime.
SPEAKER_02Appreciate it. Honor everything member.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, absolutely. No, as as I always like to say in uh these kinds of situations, I'm just happy to be here. You know? I'm just happy to be here uh doing the fun thing uh and and having fun on the timeline, which, you know, at the end of the day, that's what we're all doing. We're simply having fun on the timeline. So, with that, been listening to another episode of Members of Technical Stuff. We'll go ahead and see you on the timeline again, real soon.