Female Friendships In Midlife

Navigating female friendships at midlife can be challenging, especially for highly sensitive women. Host Elizabeth Cush and author Susan Shapiro Barash tackle the topic in this episode of the Awaken Your Wise Woman podcast.

“Seventy-five percent of the women with whom I spoke said that it's harder to leave a best or closest female friend than it is to leave a romantic relationship or a marriage.” 
 — Susan Shapiro Barash

Are you close with your sister, or do you have friends who feel like sisters to you? Do you have a female friendship that feels like it’s not working any more, but you’re not sure how to heal it or end it? As a highly sensitive woman, you may feel these friendships—and any conflicts—more deeply than others do. And have you ever stopped to wonder how our culture affects it all? In this episode of Awaken Your Wise Woman, host Elizabeth “Biz” Cush, LCPC, a licensed professional therapist, founder of Progression Counseling in Maryland and Delaware, and a mid-life women’s coach, welcomes Susan Shapiro Barash, author of Estranged: How strained female friendships can be mended or ended, 13 other non-fiction titles, and four novels. Listen in on their conversation about friendships, the importance of community for women and how the patriarchy and capitalism have impacted our sense of how our relationships should be and how we interact with other women. 

You can find the full show notes and resources mentioned here.

Join the Circle of Sacred Sensitivity here.

Transcript

Elizabeth Cush  00:03

Hi Susan, welcome to The Awaken Your wise woman podcast.

Susan Shapiro Barrash  00:08

Thank you for having me on 

Elizabeth Cush  00:10

Oh, I'm excited to have this conversation. I feel like I've been talking to a lot of women about what we're going to talk about, friendships and things like that, but I would love for you to share a little bit about yourself, for the listeners who don't know who you are,

Speaker 1  00:28

Well, estranged, how strange female friendships are meant or ended. Is my 18th book, and it's my 14th non fiction book, and then under my pen name, I write dramatic women's fiction, and my pen name is Susanna Marin. So I four novels under that name, and until covid for 24 years, I was a writing professor at Mary mount Manhattan College, and the the way that it works there is that I had a topic, and so my subject was gender, and it works, and did work, always perfectly with what I write about, which is how women of all ages, a very diverse group of women, are positioned in Contemporary American society

Elizabeth Cush  01:19

That feels like such an important topic that that I feel like we could just talk about that. But I I also know, just from the work that I'm doing with my clients, that often and even in in friendships that I have people are the women I know are talking about just their friendships and how at this time in their life, so probably midlife, they're realizing that some of the friendships aren't as aligned as they thought they were in the past and and really sort of navigating that landscape of like, well, what do I do with that now, if I've been friends for 30 years now, what if I feel like it's not aligned anymore?

Susan Shapiro Barrash  02:08

Well, yes, definitely women in midlife and beyond, but also young women. So for this study, I interviewed 150 women, and also have a questionnaire for another 111 women at the back of the book, a survey, and as I said, a very diverse group in terms of age, race, ethnicity, level of education, religion and, you know, living all over the country, in suburbs, cities, Rural areas, and really looking at the I'm always looking at the emotional issues for women, yeah, female friendships are incredibly important to us. So when there's a problem or they fail, we really suffer and question a great deal,

Elizabeth Cush  02:59

yeah, yeah, well, and I feel like, I mean, I think you've identified yourself through our emails as a highly sensitive woman, and I myself am, and I feel like it hits us even maybe more deeply, if, like a friendship is struggling or suffering, that we really feel it In a way that maybe the average person might not

Susan Shapiro Barrash  03:24

and the sense of loss when it goes wrong is so great. Yeah, a lot of women talked about it, you know, about feeling betrayed and feeling as if they had stayed loyal for way too many years, and the idea that we are failing if we this is what's trending now, that the idea that we fail if we don't stay with the friend, is what we've always been taught. You know, best friends forever. However, what, what I saw in this study is that women are now saying, You know what, I need to preserve myself, and I can't stay with this friend where it's no longer healthy or happy, and I'm finally able to leave and see a better other side. The other side of it will will be much better for me.

Elizabeth Cush  04:24

Mm, hmm. And what? What prompted you to write this book I've Did you yourself have friendships that were sort of going awry, or just something that you were seeing out in, you know, more out in the world?

Speaker 1  04:39

Well, as I said, it's my 14th non fiction book. And so any book that I've written, I've written because I couldn't find the study slash book in a bookstore. And as the late great Toni Morrison said, although I'm paraphrasing, if there's a book you need and you don't see it, you should write it. That certainly applied to me when I was a very young bride, years ago, and there was no book on Mothers in law and daughters in law, and also no books on being a second wife. So eventually I realized I needed to write those books and see how other women in that, you know, with this sort of complicated mother in law, or being a second wife, even at a very young age, you know, how did they feel about it? So I looked into that, and I've actually done several studies on the role of wife in America, because we expect so much. And I've also written a book on female rivalry and a book on sisters and a book on mothers and daughters. So you know, this is what I'm looking at. So in terms of this book, seven and a half years ago, my beloved mother died, and I was really surprised by which friends were there for me and which friends actually weren't there, and kind of didn't reach out, and didn't really understand the gravity of my sorrow and how deep it went. And so I decided to look into it and see how my hunch that in times of great sadness or times of great joy, we really understand who the friends are and who they aren't for us. And as I said, I interview 150 women per book, or up to 200 depends on the book. But for this book, I interviewed 25 women, and all of them were saying this. And as I said, Seven and a half, almost eight years ago, and all of them were saying, Oh, my God, I wish I could leave. I just dread being alone. I dread being alone in the group. I'm afraid I'll lose other friends because we share them, or we have a history together, all the reasons. Or, you know, as a pleaser. How could I, you know, not get this right, all of the usual mistakes, the price of being a good girl. But I, I told my agent I wanted to write this book, and she said to me, you know, you're under you are under contract for your novels first. So by the time I went back to this, like two years ago, everything had changed. Covid had happened. So it was yeah, like two years ago for sure, and the me too, movement had really had impact. And women were saying something very different. They were saying, you know, I can leave this friend, I'll have better friends if I leave, or I did leave the friend, and I have better friends. And I'm I feel better, I'm stronger. So it's not that it's easy to do, but that we feel empowered to do it.

Elizabeth Cush  07:56

 Yeah, interesting. Which I love? I love that women are feeling more empowered to really seek out friendships that do serve them, that are more reciprocal and and enriching and supportive. I know, yeah, I have had some I can relate to being in a relationship with a friend for too long, like recognizing that it was harmful, but also feeling like I needed to stay this was years ago, because of the group, you know, because of where we lived, because of the history. And finally, being able to say like this just doesn't work anymore. And as hard as that was, it really opened so many doors for me to leave that behind.

Susan Shapiro Barrash  08:51

Well, 75% of the women with whom I spoke said that it's harder to leave a best friend, best or closest female friend, than it is to leave a romantic relationship or a marriage. So that says, doesn't it? Wow, wow. So interesting, right? I mean, 88% of the women with whom I spoke told me that they'd had some kind of friendship problem with their best friend.

Elizabeth Cush  09:19

Interesting. And so, like, Why? Why? I mean, do you have a sense for why that's harder? Like you would think a partner or a husband or a wife would be harder to leave than than a best I don't know, maybe not. Maybe because the best friend is like the best friend. And so what does that mean if that's not there anymore?

Susan Shapiro Barrash  09:39

Well, apparently, is it is that there has been so much intimacy, so many shared feelings, secrets, thoughts, hopes, yeah, that sense that we're so understood, yeah, do not be understood. How could your friend betray you? I mean, think of all that she did that made you feel safe. Life in this friendship, in this relationship, when you didn't feel safe anywhere else. Whole idea for women, really is that this friend is a safe harbor. I mean, we're we're talking about the closest friends or best friends. We're not talking about the woman you walk through miles with every day, or you know, at the gym, or, you know, she carpools on on, you know, Wednesdays and Fridays, and you do the rest of the week with your young children. But the friend where you've really sought her out, and you've shared so much, so much, really opens your heart. Yeah, the reciprocity and the the trust, level,

Elizabeth Cush  10:43

yeah, yeah, it's

Susan Shapiro Barrash  10:44

very big deal.

Elizabeth Cush  10:45

Yeah, yeah, really big deal. And, and that, you know, you said this word a couple times, but that betrayal of when it feels that it's not that something is shifted or changed, or that that, you know you, maybe you no longer trust them because of whatever has happened, and that feels very deep too

Susan Shapiro Barrash  11:09

well, the way that these friendships break up is two, two major ways. One is something so egregious happens, like she's your best friend at work, she steals your idea that you've confided in her and presents it that's her own, or she flirts with your new boyfriend, or she is socially ambitious and you no longer fit in, and she actually doesn't invite you anymore. And you learn about it, you know, all of these things are very, very like incendiary, and suddenly there's a huge blow up, yeah, and then, you know, it's over, or it's cumulative. She's really not respecting you. Or did you imagine it? She really hasn't had time for you, but maybe you have to just understand her schedule better, or she has little children now, and you're still single in the city, and you don't understand her life, and she doesn't understand yours, but you still try. You know, those are much more where they just all add up in some way. So those are really the two ways. But in either situation, we end up knowing that the fit is no longer really right,

Elizabeth Cush  12:33

yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I feel that and and what are, and I'm not, I haven't read your book, so I have to say that, but it intrigues me, and I'm going to but Are there signs or signals that, through your research, you have seen that, you know, women are picking up on these things throughout? I mean, you shared a couple of things, but you know, how might a woman know if they're not sensing it within like that? Maybe it's time to move on.

Susan Shapiro Barrash  13:10

Well, I do think a lot of the women do feel it in some way, even though they make excuses, they feel that it's no longer what it was. And, you know, yeah, yeah, it just is uneasy. It's no longer fun. You want to avoid her, you you know, you don't believe what she says anymore. There's a lot of doubt around it, yeah, and those are signals, but we don't always act on it. As I said, if something really horrific happens, then you can't ignore it. But when it's more subtle, then you're sometimes, you know, late to the game, and you don't realize that this friend is no longer really your friend. And that's very hard. It's very hard, you know, we're supposed to be in it together.

Elizabeth Cush  14:03

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I heard you say, you know, at the beginning of this conversation that for you, you know, involved losing your mother and who showed up and who didn't. And I feel like I hear that a lot from clients where something significant has happened in their life, and they're so like, how did whether it was a sister or a best friend, right? That, like, how did they not maybe?

Susan Shapiro Barrash  14:33

Yeah, absolutely, I'm so glad you mentioned sisters, because here's what happened when I was writing the book, I said to my editor, look, you know, these women are all saying, this diverse group of women, they're saying, oh, a lot of them, oh, everyone thought we were sisters. We were so close, or it felt like sisters. I That's why I'm suffering so and I. I asked if I could have at least one sister, you know, story per chapter, so that we could look at what it's like to fall out with your sister. Because the you know, with our friends, we choose them. It's fictive family, if we will. We choose them, and they're not assigned to us. But with sisters, there's the hovering mother, there's the familiar family, and the expectation that family is a thick,

Elizabeth Cush  15:36

really strong, yeah.

Susan Shapiro Barrash  15:39

So while the behaviors might be the same, the sense of loss is so tremendous, and there's always that feeling that the mother would be disappointed or she is disappointed, so that differentiates it. But sisters have falling outs too, and years ago, when I wrote the book, sisters devoted or divided that stuff. When I did that book and interviewed the women, it was very interesting, because when the sisters were no longer speaking, they were seeking out very close female friends, and if they were very tight, they didn't really need their female friends the same way those of us who don't have a sister do interesting.

Elizabeth Cush  16:26

That makes sense, though, because that becomes sort of the de facto best friend that you share all the things with.

Susan Shapiro Barrash  16:33

And the other part is, you know, in both sister situations and best friend situations, we're really talking about the sheer force of a female bond of what that provides for us?

Elizabeth Cush  16:46

Yeah, yeah. And it's so important. I mean, I feel like the times in my life where that bond has felt. I'm going to say the word shattered, broken. I felt it such a loss at not having that anchor, right, that person I just knew was always going to be there. I mean, I do have a sister, but she lives far away, so we don't see each other that much so, but yeah, that losing that best friend really almost destabilized my sense of safety in the world for a long time.

Susan Shapiro Barrash  17:25

That's exactly what the women are saying. I mean, on the other hand, 75% of the women told me that they were relieved to leave a friendship that had turned so sour. And yeah, yeah. 72% said they had the courage to do it. Yeah. So, you know, we hold the bar high, but we eventually face the reality, if need be,

Elizabeth Cush  17:49

yeah, yeah. Well, and it certainly was the right thing to do in terms of my own situation. It was definitely the healthiest thing I could do for myself. But, yeah, but hard nonetheless.

Susan Shapiro Barrash  18:02

Well, when, when I was starting to write this book and do the research, and I did in there the So, let me just say the layout of the book is that there many short interviews, you know, just where the women, you know, give us their story, and then per chapter there's one sister's story, and then there's also, per chapter, one long both sides of the breakup story. Oh, and I, she said, she said, yeah, and those read almost like fiction. I mean, they're just like narratives. They're really, you know, they have a beginning and middle and end. And you know what happened to these two friends? And they were both sides, were willing to talk to me, which was really something. I found that all of it really intriguing, every story that was shared, either, you know, the the shorter stories or the long both sides of the story. Stories really, really were very poignant and very heartfelt. But I also look in the book at pop culture, and I look at some celebrity culture, so my daughter, my eldest and first daughter said to me a few weeks ago, she said, Mom, did you know that? And she sent me, of course, you know, she texted the link that you know, Blake Lively and Taylor Swift no longer speak to each other, and Taylor's over. What's happened with Blake Lively, apparently, and I think, and that it was precipitated by Taylor Swift, but I but in the book, I look at other celebrity women, and I even look at Ella Fitzgerald and Marilyn Monroe. They were so. Elizabeth, but Ella Fitzgerald was very concerned about her friend marilyn's drug use and drinking. And I have a whole chapter on when we enable a friend who has some sort of addiction, and what that does to the person who's really carrying the burden and how hard it is to be that kind of friend. But I also looked at competitive friends, sort of the Betty and Veronica's of it all, and some famous stories, and it's just been going on forever. Yeah, it's, it's just, you know, if I were in a classroom right now, I would say to the students, it's partly nurture, which is what we're taught by society, how women always operate in terms of limited goods. We're told in because we live in a patriarchy, that there's not enough pie to go around, so if best friend gets the job or the guy or gets to move, somehow we think we you know, there's some magical theft and we won't get our opportunity. We have to stop thinking like that. And then there's our nature. You know, how competitive or jealous Are you by nature? And so these are the things that factor in, you know, the societal prescription, and then how we really feel individually in these friendships.

Elizabeth Cush  21:27

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting, because I feel like part of that cultural messaging around women and being friends is this sort of that we're this sort of gossipy tribe of of females that are, you know, either talking about each other behind our backs, you know, that we're friends, but we're kind of, you know, snarky behind when the other person's not there, that there's this, this sense through, you know, movies and social media that like this is sort of a normal dynamic, which really I struggle with, that, that piece of it, but also have struggled with that, you know, looking back at friendships throughout my life, where it did feel like when that other, you know, the third person, wasn't there. That's who you were talking about, right? And which, yeah, just leaves this sense of unsafety in all relationships.

Susan Shapiro Barrash  22:28

Yes, it's really a form of betrayal, and you feel, yeah, like, as you said, the lack of safety and again, that really there. There has to be a much better standard, yeah, and the authentic friend wouldn't do that, right?

Elizabeth Cush  22:49

No, no, no. 

Speaker 1  22:50

And I find the good and be supportive. And there's that too. And sometimes in this book, you know, women are losing touch, although this is primarily about real breakups, not just, oh, we grew apart or we lost touch, but when we reunited, it was as if nothing had happened. No time had passed. We've all heard that, yeah, but the this is where there's really a critical, you know, situation, and then everything shape shifts.

Elizabeth Cush  23:20

yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I get that. I do, yeah. I've just been Wow, yeah. I'm 65 now, and just really being more mindful about the women I welcome into my circle, because I want, I want it to be a space of yeah, not that competitiveness, not the jealousy, not the backbiting, like it just needs, yeah. I want to just feel held and supported in my relationships, all of them,

Speaker 1  23:55

but, but what's so fascinating is because I mentioned that I spoke with women in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, you know, till a little past 80, we women in our society reinvent themselves about every 10 years. You know, you're a young working woman, you're maybe a bride, you're, you know, whatever happens you have children, you meet other women with children, it's easier to be with the mirroring friend, the friend who has the exact same experience going on. You know, the kids grow up. We all get them through high school, college. We get them through and for all of that, there's a lot of, you know, the theory of homologie, like with like, you know, your your life is so similar to mine. Of course, we're close because of that commonality. But what was so curious to me in this book is that 50 and 60 year old women, you know, retire in their 60s. Of them and to a community, new friends. New friends wherever we go, new friends when we move, new friends when you know we're now empty nesters. You know, all different experiences, but many times the same situation where you meet a new friend, you're enthused, or you're reunited, and then that that inciting incident, something, for example, I interviewed a woman who said that she was in her early 60s, and she had moved to a retirement community with her husband, and everyone was so happy. There was a new couple in the community, and they had dinners and they were included, and there were card games and all the stuff that goes on and that, you know, book club, everything was inclusive. And then her husband unexpectedly died, and as a widow, she felt shunned, the couples took her out. Each of the couples took her out once, and then basically they didn't want a third wheel. The widows and divorced groups weren't very inviting because it was competitive. And you know, someone said, Well, aren't there enough single women around here? Wow, so she really, once again, felt, you know, she she didn't know where she really belonged, and she'd given up the old life and the Old Town, her hometown. So I think we have to be very watchful, because this, this limited goods situation that we all live with can really create a problem. Yeah? I mean, everyone acted like we don't need one more widow,

Elizabeth Cush  26:50

yeah, yeah, and, or Yeah, or Yeah, right. Don't need one more widow, or one more competed a woman competing for maybe a widower,

Susan Shapiro Barrash  27:01

right, right. Are there any around? Let's grab them. But she can't be in line to grab them. So it really becomes a situation for women where they feel uneasy and they've left the old friends behind. So it happens at every stage. A good example of that I cite in the book as an example of fictive family is Sex in the City, and that's that template is one where the friends clearly select each other. They're not a sign there's no family except Miranda's character, had a mother in law back, not in the new version, and just like that, but that's what it's called, but in sex and city, many years ago, when she marries Steve, there's Anne Mira, the actress plays her mother, but in law, but for the most part, no family. We don't see sickness. We don't see mothers coming to town. They provide fictive family. They are that's the paradigm. They are family for each other. It all goes really well. They sit around tables in New York restaurants and chat and reveal their innermost hopes. But when just apropos of this limited goods, you know, theory is that when Charlotte is trying to have a baby and trying to have a baby, and finally adopts and does in vitro and goes through everything, and then Miranda just announces that one of their meals, guess what? I'm pregnant. I never expected this, and it's shocking to all four of them, even to Miranda, but Charlotte says something like, No, I'm supposed to be pregnant. And that really but again, I paraphrase, but the point is, is that we can't think that if our friend has success, she took our chance too, because that's not how it works, and women won't have all the options they need until they don't view the world that way.

Elizabeth Cush  29:12

Yeah, yeah, oh, it feels that feels like bigger message than just around friendships, right?

Susan Shapiro Barrash  29:21

Like, yes, exactly, but around like females uniting and bonding and not feeling like we're in perpetual competition. Yeah, I had written years ago. I did a book called tripping the prom queen, the truth about rivalry. And in that book, I really listened to women, again, a very disparate group, talk about the ways in which they felt that they were in constant competition with even their closest friends and other women.

Elizabeth Cush  29:49

Yeah, it's exhausting,

Susan Shapiro Barrash  29:53

exhausting and really not the right way to operate. No, no, so you know, to to bring a new friend. And in to belong to a group which is so important to women, is supposed to be very secure, and also is supposed to be the one safe haven. Because children can be tricky. They grow up, they leave house. You know, the men come and go for various reasons. I mentioned a widow to the divorce rate, and so the friends are supposed to be there no matter what. And women in this book talked about that, about, you know, the struggle when the friend isn't really coming through, and how much that really discourages them, and how much you feel like like you're alone when you expected to have that buffer.

Elizabeth Cush  30:51

Yeah, yeah. I, I can so relate to that. And, yeah, I do find personally and as I work with clients, that for them too, as they're healing the wounds of whether it's a betrayal in a friendship or, you know, past childhood wounds that it does help them find more secure, safe relationships with other women because they themselves feel like less in competition, or less that scarcity of like, you know, I there's nobody out there for me. I gotta grab what I can, you know, it's just more of a sense of meeting somebody else from your heart,

Susan Shapiro Barrash  31:40

yes, and and so many women talked about how they used to share values. One chapter that I would not have expected to write when I first pitched this book, when my mom died, is a chapter that became important based on, you know, the interviewees describing what I call the chapter, the disparaging friend, and that's the friend who's so critical in a way that it didn't happen in like years ago, we were more careful, but because Maybe social media, we just say everything is spilled. So that was one chapter I didn't think I'd really have when I first started it, and the other is the diametrically opposed friend where you really don't have the same political beliefs anymore. You don't look at vaccine and boosters the same way you don't look at how to raise your children in terms of their health and boosting and, you know, inoculating the same way. And whereas in days gone by, it would have been, oh, well, she and I did not vote for the same candidate, to today being like, why would I be friends with someone who voted for that person instead of my person, yeah, and so much more divisive,

Elizabeth Cush  33:07

yes, yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, I

Susan Shapiro Barrash  33:13

Yeah. I just see it in your practice. I mean

Elizabeth Cush  33:16

absolutely, where families that are like yeah just destroyed through political divisiveness or whatever. Yeah, values, yeah,

Susan Shapiro Barrash  33:26

yeah, to no longer really. I mean, even you know, goes back to the other chapter that you know, our value system used to be much more respectful, but now you know, like, maybe you wouldn't be hard on your friend, but now people are leaving friends in this chapter because of who they voted for. Yeah, just unbelievable. Could not have predicted that.

Elizabeth Cush  33:52

Yeah, I bet not. I bet not. Yeah. It just does feel like it's a a whole different world we're living in right now with the as much divisiveness

Susan Shapiro Barrash  34:02

so many, that would be a whole other show. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely, absolutely, but, but, you know, what's really common is the green eyed friend. That's another one of my chapters where we've just seen it. We've been taught it. We've been our mentors have shown us what it what jealous women can do, what they feel like, Yeah, and so that's something that we really know about. Oh, and we've been talked about that and how hard that was, yeah, to have a friend who is just so the jealousy just is a very bad vibe and often prevalent, often really just part of the friendship, especially when you know the glittering prize for prizes for women are now going to your friend and not to so if we believe in it, say you know the right lifestyle, the right marriage. If you want it, children, if you want it, great success in a capitalistic society, beauty, privilege. You know, all that we're told to hope for and to aspire to. And if one friend ascends with all this and the other is really stuck, or worse, descends. It creates a lot of friction and jealousy. It really does,

Elizabeth Cush  35:28

yeah, I bet. I bet, the sense of, yeah, why me? Either, like, Why me? Why didn't I get to have all that or or like, yeah, yeah, or some negative feelings towards the person who you are jealous of.

Speaker 1  35:43

Yeah, yeah. And then there's the hierarchy of friendships. I mean, I'm more important to my best friend than I'm more that she's not as important to me with someone I care about her, but you know, I have a significant other, or my two sisters and I are so close, so that kind of inequality in terms of where you what you mean and where you belong in the other person's life is very hard to just another aspect of the friendship isn't rewarding. The give and take isn't the same. She takes all the time. Women would say, I give all the time. You know, young women, 45 year old women, 70 year old women talking about that still

Elizabeth Cush  36:33

 oh yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I have heard that. And with work and my clients, of of yeah, just feeling really unseen or even just unvalidated in a group of friendships where other people seem to have more space or be given more space,

Susan Shapiro Barrash  36:48

right, right? Yeah, I can come through for her. She won't come through for me. Or, yeah, yeah, she's lied to me about her plans. I've included her in everything. Just through the stories you really hear it. You hear women who are so disappointed, so let down by the friend. And then there's the estranger, the one who leaves this friendship and puts that into play, and the estrangee, the person who's at the receiving end of the breakup, totally.

Elizabeth Cush  37:22

Yeah. Well, I feel like we could probably talk about this for another 40 minutes or so, but I want to be mindful of your time and respectful of your time. But this was so interesting, and so I feel like it's so on point for what I'm hearing from my own clients and friends, and just sort of navigating this, this this season of or whatever, where they are in their friendships, and just really kind of reevaluating, and it feels like I'm like, I said I'm going To get your book, but it just feels really relevant for what we're going through right now.

Speaker 1  38:05

 It is thank you for saying that. I think that we we're not going to give up on our female friends, but we have to understand which ones have the offer, the real support and the truest Safe Harbor, and those who don't, and you know, get over the shock effect of how it's no longer what it was. And, you know, preserve ourselves in order to have better bonds going forward.

Elizabeth Cush  38:38

Absolutely, yeah. So important, so important. Well, if people wanted to find out more about all of your work, but particularly this new book, how do they find you?

Susan Shapiro Barrash  38:52

They can go to my website, which is Susan Shapiro Barish com, or Susanna marin.com both names will get you there, or, you know, follow me on Instagram or Facebook.

Elizabeth Cush  39:07

Awesome, awesome. Well, I will include all the links to your thank you, yeah for your social media and your website in the show notes. And yeah, I look forward to sharing this with our my listeners and and the rest of the world. Yeah, thanks, Susan, very much. Bye.