SPEAKER_01: I think what we need to talk about is really what we see today in the artistry of music and in worship and the rise and falls of some of these ministries that we've had the privilege of knowing personally some.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: Um we've been out there, both of us on the road, you out there longer than me, but we both had the experiences.
SPEAKER_01: Um raising our our kids up, right, because they're all in worship music now, right, making records.
SPEAKER_01: And um you know, we had our groups that we compared our lives to and our music to.
SPEAKER_01: Some of them don't exist anymore.
SPEAKER_01: No, they came on strong and then they were just gone.
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's important to to again, if we're going to talk about this, that we talk about it from our vantage point at the age that we are, because when you get about midway through life, you see the patterns, you see cycles and patterns, and you see, if I do this, this is what's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_00: If I do this, this is what's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't change.
SPEAKER_00: No, it doesn't shift.
SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, I did this and I got away with it.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: No, if you if you go down this road, there are consequences.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Now I don't know what the timing of that's going to be, but there's a wall you're gonna hit.
SPEAKER_00: You're you're playing with fire, you're gonna get burned.
SPEAKER_00: So it's easy to think that somebody's at the top right now and doing so great that that's God or that's the, and maybe God's giving them time to repent or whatever.
SPEAKER_00: But we, you and I know from as long as we've lived, there's a day that the wall is gonna get hit hard.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And what's our reaction, what's our response to that?
SPEAKER_00: Especially in worship, especially with the songs that are being written and the songs are being sung.
SPEAKER_00: I get asked that all the time.
SPEAKER_00: What's God doing in worship?
SPEAKER_00: What do you think about the artists that are traveling in these big it's bigger than ever.
SPEAKER_00: Like we have a front row seat.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we do.
SPEAKER_00: We used to pray for to have the audiences and the platforms that our kids now have.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: You know, we used to could we ever be on like a local radio show or a local secular television show.
SPEAKER_00: And now, you know, the biggest artists are on the biggest stages in the world.
SPEAKER_01: On the Grammys, on all yeah.
SPEAKER_01: I I want to say this though.
SPEAKER_01: I think it I think it's good for us to talk about the days that we grew up in music.
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't worship music.
SPEAKER_01: I I think all the time, what did we sing at youth camp?
SPEAKER_01: That's another conversation.
SPEAKER_01: I can't even remember what we sang.
SPEAKER_01: I think you asked me that.
SPEAKER_01: Somebody guitar.
SPEAKER_01: I don't remember.
SPEAKER_01: We can't remember, but it was definitely hippie Jesus music.
SPEAKER_01: But then Amy Grant came.
SPEAKER_01: Oh, she changed the game.
SPEAKER_01: She changed the game, and then she went mainstream and we were all devastated.
SPEAKER_01: And we just thought she lost her mind and her salvation.
SPEAKER_01: I did, and I love her all the time.
SPEAKER_01: And I I mean people did, and we had a hard time defending it.
SPEAKER_01: And you know, the church girls defended Amy.
SPEAKER_01: But we loved her so much, and she really ministered to us.
SPEAKER_01: It was awesome.
SPEAKER_01: And then Michael W.
SPEAKER_01: Smith, and then it just sort of transformed from Christian music or church music to Christian music and all that.
SPEAKER_01: Integrity music, Ron Cannoli, oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01: All those great songs back in the day that just the world in the area of the church and and all of that.
SPEAKER_01: Then you migrated.
SPEAKER_01: I remember the 90s, the first time I ever heard Darlene Sheck sing at Hill Song.
SPEAKER_01: And that video, it was a eight, what do you call it?
SPEAKER_01: A video?
SPEAKER_01: A video.
SPEAKER_01: Eight track?
SPEAKER_01: No, it was a video.
SPEAKER_01: There's eight tracks, there's CDs, and it was the video with the C D?
SPEAKER_01: For your VCR.
SPEAKER_01: For your VR, C.
SPEAKER_01: There you go.
SPEAKER_01: See how Lorda is involved.
SPEAKER_01: Oh, we're so old.
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, I remember popping in the DVD.
SPEAKER_01: The DVD.
SPEAKER_01: There you go.
SPEAKER_01: No, no, it was a video.
SPEAKER_01: It was so far past.
SPEAKER_01: It was before a C D.
SPEAKER_01: VHS, thank you.
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Ashley.
SPEAKER_01: She giggled the thing and she googled it.
SPEAKER_01: I know she did.
SPEAKER_01: She didn't even know.
SPEAKER_01: She knew so young.
SPEAKER_01: Good girl.
SPEAKER_01: She's a she's an old lady and a young lady body.
SPEAKER_01: Um, so and I remember putting it in, and we were all sitting around and we were watching it, going, that's what we want.
SPEAKER_01: Because it was a praise team with a choir.
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't one man leading three hymns and then the band on the side, you know.
SPEAKER_01: It was the church was worshiped and corporate, and oh my gosh, that's what we wanted.
SPEAKER_01: And then the next thing, every church was getting rid of their choir or you know, their weird groups of singers, and they were going to that format.
SPEAKER_01: Everybody, I remember when I did it 30 years ago, right?
SPEAKER_01: And I got the permission 20 years ago, 25, 27 to be able to pivot and get rid of some of the older folks and put new folks on frontline mics.
SPEAKER_01: And I just thought, this is it.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: We're ushering in the new age.
SPEAKER_01: This is it.
SPEAKER_01: Uh and and it was really, it was really fun.
SPEAKER_01: But the church has then and music has changed even more since then.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: And but what has not changed is men's hearts.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_01: And that's true.
SPEAKER_01: Just because you have a platform, you write great songs, um, you said it in the beginning, you you learn that you if you do this, you're gonna get that.
SPEAKER_01: If there's there is a cause and effect to everything.
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's just like when they were bringing the Ark of the Covenant, those that touched it died instantly.
SPEAKER_01: You don't touch the glory.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: And one thing that we can say, looking back over, you know, we say this to our kids, they these people were the elevation of our time.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: Or these people were you know, the this the cut the ministry that you love so much was this is who they were in our generation.
SPEAKER_01: Where are they now?
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: And I'm so grateful that elevation and um Maverick City and all the amazing worship music.
SPEAKER_01: My kids grew up on Hill Song.
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01: I'm so thankful for that.
SPEAKER_01: That's in their soul.
SPEAKER_01: Those songs are in their soul.
SPEAKER_01: Those are songs from heaven.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean that everybody behind the scenes is perfect, everybody's imperfect.
SPEAKER_01: Um, but you said something when we were talking about this the artist versus the audience.
SPEAKER_01: What is the audience's response?
SPEAKER_01: We, you know, on social media, everybody has a say.
SPEAKER_01: They can be opinionated, they don't like his t-shirt and jeans and shoes, and and you know, we hack these people to death.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, what is our response as we're buying their music, we're listening to it, we're worshiping, we're being blessed.
SPEAKER_01: What's our response to the man, the human that's making these songs?
SPEAKER_00: And I yes, I think that's a great question to ask.
SPEAKER_00: And if, and we go back to what the Bible tells us, we that's what we lean on, that's what what we do.
SPEAKER_00: We're shaped by the word of God.
SPEAKER_00: We don't the word, we don't, you know, ask the Holy Spirit or the Word of God is shaped towards us.
SPEAKER_00: What does God's word say?
SPEAKER_00: That's what we do.
SPEAKER_00: And the Bible says we are to pray for our enemies.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: We're supposed to do good to people who, you know, use uh misuse us or say all manner of evil against us.
SPEAKER_00: Are we even are we doing that?
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: Are we just saying that person is off or that person is not godly enough, or that person, you know?
SPEAKER_00: I have found that God has used me to write songs.
SPEAKER_00: I don't, I'm not spiritual enough to write.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: I'm not outliving this sinful life, but I still have sins.
SPEAKER_00: I'm not perfect.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: Don't put the spotlight on me.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: You know, I I think we can be so, I mean, I thought our parents were like the hard religious ones.
SPEAKER_00: But this generation, yeah, we judge each other so harshly.
SPEAKER_00: So harshly.
SPEAKER_00: And you know what?
SPEAKER_00: You might even be right in your analysis of that person, but you gotta constantly check your heart.
SPEAKER_00: God can still use them.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: And if God's hand is on them for whatever, don't touch God's anointing.
SPEAKER_00: If that sounds like too much, okay, throw that out.
SPEAKER_00: They're still God's son or God's daughter.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: How would you feel if somebody's talking about your son or your daughter?
SPEAKER_00: They might be a criminal.
SPEAKER_00: They might be somebody that's living away from God, but that's still your child.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: You would still protect them, you would still love them.
SPEAKER_00: And any good that they're doing that's kingdom-minded or good for the family, you would say, that's great.
SPEAKER_00: Let's encourage that.
SPEAKER_00: Not that we overlook sin, not that we don't correct it, but I think we've overcorrected correction.
SPEAKER_01: Well, we're they're not, so I think what you're saying too, and I agree with it, is that the the criticism is clothing and style.
SPEAKER_01: It's not immorality, right?
SPEAKER_01: So we're we're we are criticizing things we just don't like.
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so so so in it to give you an example, Danielle and Nicole, they did an event with Maverick City.
SPEAKER_00: Now, this is all public, so we're not saying this is all public.
SPEAKER_00: They were sang on the last record.
SPEAKER_00: They were able to be, there was a huge opportunity, and they love enjoyed it so much.
SPEAKER_00: My daughters, Danielle and Nicole, me Nizzy, and they sang on the platform.
SPEAKER_00: And there was one of the uh guest artists that sang this beautiful girl.
SPEAKER_00: And so she came on.
SPEAKER_00: I think she did a rap.
SPEAKER_00: Well, I was in the audience.
SPEAKER_00: I saw what she was wearing.
SPEAKER_00: She had on a cute skirt, a little top, and I didn't think there was anything wrong with it at all.
SPEAKER_00: It looked cute.
SPEAKER_00: It was very hot.
SPEAKER_00: I knew Daniela Nicole.
SPEAKER_01: Her outfit wasn't hot.
SPEAKER_01: It was hot in the room.
SPEAKER_00: Hot in the room.
SPEAKER_00: Okay, just say, thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_00: She had a hot outfit on.
SPEAKER_00: Lord, all the all the church ladies went, flip that.
SPEAKER_00: Oh, she said it.
SPEAKER_00: She said it was hot.
SPEAKER_00: Clip that video.
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
SPEAKER_00: But she was wearing uh it was a cute outfit.
SPEAKER_00: It was a skirt and a top.
SPEAKER_00: It was very hot in the room.
SPEAKER_00: Everybody was sweating, they had hot lights on them.
SPEAKER_00: I knew that they literally all crammed into a room half this size to get dressed.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And they were all had moments, it was, it was crazy behind behind the scenes.
SPEAKER_00: Well, when the video, the clip of the video of this guest artist singing came out, the people, because she has a very large audience that were just commenting, why would you wear an outfit like that?
SPEAKER_00: You're a Christian, you shouldn't wear that, with no context.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but her response was so sweet.
SPEAKER_00: She said, Thank you for the feedback.
SPEAKER_00: Here's what happened.
SPEAKER_00: She actually had a wardrobe malfunction.
SPEAKER_00: They tried everything that they could to help her, but it was all it was like go out or don't go out.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: But not only that, the camera angle just shot her at the wrong angle.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: It didn't look like that in the in real cameraman's fault.
SPEAKER_00: It was the we fire him.
SPEAKER_00: No, blame him.
SPEAKER_00: It just was unf but if you're just going to look for the negative, if you're just going to be somebody who believes the worst, right, and not say, you know what, this they struggle like me.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: You know, how many times have I worn the wrong thing?
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, why did I wear it?
SPEAKER_00: First of all, it was just poor taste.
SPEAKER_00: Forget it, it wasn't whatever.
SPEAKER_00: Didn't look as good as I thought it would, right?
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And give people a lot more room to just get it wrong and celebrate what they're getting right.
SPEAKER_00: It's just today, in this in the season that we live in, it's just, let's just, we we're making a business out of tearing people down.
SPEAKER_01: And it's a religious spirit.
SPEAKER_01: If we're not careful, I know it.
SPEAKER_01: It's a very religious spirit.
SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a balance because it's the artist versus the audience, the audience versus the artists.
SPEAKER_01: We do need to have a standard.
SPEAKER_01: And there are times where you go, you scratch your head and go, where's your pastor?
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: Somebody go get your pastor and help you.
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, if we should have the spirit of mothers and fathers and helping, we need to be there to help love and support.
SPEAKER_01: Now, when we see something that we cannot anymore, but I'm just going to say something.
SPEAKER_01: Say it.
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes these are the same people that have they've got Beyonce on their playlist.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: And they've got Elevation in Maverick City.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: I'm not, I am not endorsing that everything that they do is right, but at least they're singing for the Lord.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: And what immorality is being just idolized and thrown out there.
SPEAKER_01: That's not what's happening.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: We're judging the wrong things.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: And we have to check ourselves first before we're so quick to criticize someone else.
SPEAKER_01: And I know that there's been times when when a person that's written great songs, I remember years ago, that song, Thank You for Giving to the Lord.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: And then the artist was changed.
SPEAKER_01: The writer came out of the closet.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: How many times did we sing that song?
SPEAKER_00: Oh, or the other song about healing, the and the the guy that wrote the song said he had cancer.
SPEAKER_00: And he faked it.
SPEAKER_01: He never had cancer.
SPEAKER_01: So do we what does that mean about the song?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: The song stands alone.
SPEAKER_01: The Lord gave the song to the earth through an imperfect person.
SPEAKER_00: At our stage of our lives, where we sit, we have learned to eat the meat and throw out the bones.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Because at the end of the day, it's what it's what you have.
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
SPEAKER_00: And if you just keep stomping on, well, that's still, that's, you know, it's a great song, but you're not right.
SPEAKER_00: And you're off.
SPEAKER_00: And you're, okay, you know what?
SPEAKER_00: Again, that doesn't mean we lower our standards.
SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean, you know, that we don't have some kind of discernment and prayer.
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
SPEAKER_00: I understand that.
SPEAKER_00: And as pastors, we help lead the next generation.
SPEAKER_00: Doesn't mean we we cut off our discernment or any of that.
SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, two truths can be true at the same time.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: That at the same time, these are this is the generation that God has at the forefront.
SPEAKER_00: They are blessing a lot of people.
SPEAKER_00: And unfortunately, sometimes people's lifestyle, maybe their struggles, maybe their trauma, maybe their unchecked sin, is they're still in that season.
SPEAKER_00: You know, thank God that nobody put the spotlight on me 25 years ago.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_01: Like it's on people now.
SPEAKER_01: Well, let's let's let's get personal here.
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
SPEAKER_01: Our father was a closet alcoholic.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: And wrote some of the most prolific songs for the church.
SPEAKER_01: 100%.
SPEAKER_01: One is in the hymnal.
SPEAKER_01: Yes, ma'am.
SPEAKER_01: In the Russian hymnal, in the German hymnal, in the uh Korean hymnal.
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
SPEAKER_01: We know what his life really was, the dark side of his life.
SPEAKER_01: He was a broken man.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: And our parents divorced over it, and it was an awful situation.
SPEAKER_01: Yet he wrote songs.
SPEAKER_01: Love grew where the blood flowed.
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
SPEAKER_01: That's why the Bible says the gifts and callings of God are without reproach.
SPEAKER_01: He does not take them back.
SPEAKER_01: And it confines you because you think, I'm a better person than them.
SPEAKER_01: I should get the gift.
SPEAKER_01: But that's not how gifts work.
SPEAKER_01: No.
SPEAKER_01: And quite frankly, I think there's so many podcasts, Martha, and you know, you and I, we listen to them.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: And we watch these that are reactionary to did you see that song?
SPEAKER_01: That song is not scriptural.
SPEAKER_01: Well, okay.
SPEAKER_00: And don't sing an unscriptural song, but what are we talking about here?
SPEAKER_00: Splitting, I call it splitting hairs.
SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the day, is the criticism of it actually doing more damage than the song actually is?
SPEAKER_01: And then how many church people don't even know the words to the song?
SPEAKER_00: And it's up on the screen and they still don't know the words.
SPEAKER_00: And again, that's right.
SPEAKER_00: And if we're going to rely on the Holy Spirit, rely on the Holy Spirit to pierce hearts and to bring truth.
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think sometimes you can get so afraid that that's going to lead somebody astray.
SPEAKER_00: Well, you got it.
SPEAKER_00: I got it.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: Holy Spirit help me.
SPEAKER_00: You know, there's a lot that prayer can do, that that intercession can do, that loving your neighbor can do, that can cut through a lot of this.
SPEAKER_00: And it's just reactionary.
SPEAKER_00: It feeds our flesh sometimes, just to feel like, well, I gave my opinion and I'm on the other side of whatever everybody loves it and I see the negative to it.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but you called it.
SPEAKER_01: It's the spirit, it's a religious spirit that people don't know they have.
SPEAKER_01: It is a religious spirit.
SPEAKER_01: And I know that I've got to repent of it.
SPEAKER_01: Oh, me too.
SPEAKER_01: Because I just want the people that are singing the songs that just fit build my faith.
SPEAKER_01: I want them to be as equally as awesome as what I felt on that song.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: And the whole and I and I have to be reminded the Holy Spirit's going, stop that.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: They're just the vessel I use.
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
SPEAKER_01: I down, I downloaded this song to the earth.
SPEAKER_01: I use them.
SPEAKER_01: Guess why?
SPEAKER_01: Because they were in a posture to hear from me and they were asking me for it.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: That's it.
SPEAKER_01: And I gave the song to them.
SPEAKER_01: But the song is for you, it's for the body of Christ of not perfect.
SPEAKER_01: When I look back at our father who wrote Learning to Lean on Jesus, he wrote one of the most prolific songs, Finding More Power Than I've Ever Dreamed.
SPEAKER_01: Learning to Lean on Jesus.
SPEAKER_01: And he did not know how to lean.
SPEAKER_01: Never did it.
SPEAKER_01: But he wrote the most incredible song that for generations.
SPEAKER_01: Mom tells a story that dad won the Dub Awards for 1977.
SPEAKER_01: And we were there in the ball, was it 77 or 77?
SPEAKER_01: In a ballroom, and all these famous artists were there.
SPEAKER_01: And everybody that won for their category, the person would come up and sing their song.
SPEAKER_01: But dad was the song of the year.
SPEAKER_01: And he got up, they they he won.
SPEAKER_01: And at the end, instead of an artist singing it, Ralph Carmichael and his huge orchestra took the stage and said, Since everybody knows all the words to this song, because it was being sung all over the world, he said, We're going to sing this congregationally.
SPEAKER_01: Can you imagine you've been at the Dove Awards right now?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that they said, Since everyone knows this song, we're gonna, the artist isn't gonna come up here and sing it.
SPEAKER_01: We're all gonna stand and sing this song.
SPEAKER_01: All of us are gonna sing this man's song, this man who has a dark side, who wrote a song about leaning and did not know how to lean.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: We need to stop thinking that everybody that writes a song that blesses us did not write that out of a season of pain.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Or they are struggling.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: But that God has given them a song to heal them.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: And then it's blessing us and healing us.
SPEAKER_01: But if they choose to not apply the truth of that song to their life, that's not for us to judge.
SPEAKER_00: No, no.
SPEAKER_00: And I can own the greatest store in the world that has all the fresh vegetables, every type of meat you could buy.
SPEAKER_00: I could own it all, pay for it all, and never eat any of it.
SPEAKER_00: And die of cancer.
SPEAKER_00: And that's me.
SPEAKER_00: I die, I die of starvation with all everything at my disposal.
SPEAKER_00: But I think we've got to be careful.
SPEAKER_00: And again, because of where we sit, I feel like we don't know everything, but we've lived enough to look back over the season of our life.
SPEAKER_00: You can look back now.
SPEAKER_00: People that are in their 20s can't look back over two decades.
SPEAKER_00: In 30s, you can't look back over.
SPEAKER_00: When you get into your 50s, you can look back over decades where you actually watch people who had their kids and they grew up.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And now they're having kids.
SPEAKER_00: It's three and four cycles of the same thing.
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
SPEAKER_00: And you and we've lived through enough of where we, you know, crucified people that were just trying to live their life.
SPEAKER_00: They maybe didn't make all the right choices, and we hurt the body of Christ.
SPEAKER_00: And I feel really what we're saying is from the Lord.
SPEAKER_00: It's really from the Lord, from where we sit as parents, as mothers, um, as musicians, as singers, as ministers, to help this next generation and say, guys, don't, my mother, what does my mother say?
SPEAKER_00: Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: Think long term.
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
SPEAKER_00: God, and and and could it be that this religious spirit where we just want to condemn comes from jealousy?
SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00: Insecurity and jealousy.
SPEAKER_00: Because we say it's pride, but let's be careful that we're not operating in a jealous spirit.
SPEAKER_00: Because a religious spirit, what does the Bible say?
SPEAKER_00: The that that the word knowledge puffs up.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: So you go, but I know the word better than anybody, and I quote scripture, and that's cool, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_00: But there has to be applied, wisdom is applying the knowledge that you have.
SPEAKER_00: And if you've if what you're doing is not bringing people together and it's splintering, and we're just finding the negative, I fight that in my life.
SPEAKER_00: I fight people in my life that just want to be a super opinionated.
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, yeah, really?
SPEAKER_00: So your opinion matters more than everybody else's?
SPEAKER_00: Like we got to be careful that we don't stay in that mindset of what I think matters because I feel it and I know I'm right.
SPEAKER_00: Well, if it's damaging the your testimony or the testimony of somebody else, just stay quiet.
SPEAKER_00: Pray.
SPEAKER_01: Ask the Lord to pass to that you'll you know cross paths with the person that's just add, but don't add to the narrative that um the devil so desperately wants um the body of Christ to be divided over when it's worship unto God.
SPEAKER_01: It's unity is where the blessing flows.
SPEAKER_01: And it's where the anointing is.
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't say unity flows, and but you got to kick all these people out.
SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, think about marriage.
SPEAKER_00: You know, you could think of 20 reasons why, you know, over the years you could walk away from your marriage.
SPEAKER_00: 20 years, you screwed up, you messed up, you hurt my feelings, you were disrespectful, you wouldn't stop doing whatever.
SPEAKER_00: Nothing major like sin or anything like that.
SPEAKER_00: But I'm just saying enough to where you just be fed up and and you're not spiritual enough, or whatever.
SPEAKER_00: We could think of 20 reasons, but instead, because we're married and God honors the unity in the covenant, we stay covenant and we cover each other, we protect one another.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: And again, I think we're kind of losing that in some circles.
SPEAKER_01: Well, we see that all over social media.
SPEAKER_01: We're we're hacking our artists to death and we're saying whatever we, you know, instead of being blessed by the music, but that's the audience, and we've just given it hard to the audience, audience.
SPEAKER_01: But there are some things about artists that we see today that I think we should talk about.
SPEAKER_01: Because we do, we do stop in our tracks and we'll call each other.
SPEAKER_01: How do you feel about that?
SPEAKER_01: Because it's they live very public lives.
SPEAKER_01: And with social media and YouTube and all that, it's all out there.
SPEAKER_01: Reddit, it's all out there.
SPEAKER_01: A lot of lies on social media, we know that.
SPEAKER_01: Um, but optics are everything, right?
SPEAKER_01: Optics are very important, whether you're a Christian or not, whether you're in the industry or you're in the secular industry, optics are very important.
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
SPEAKER_01: And we do represent the king of all kings and the lord of all lords.
SPEAKER_01: And he was without um blemish.
SPEAKER_01: He was a he's a very righteous God.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Um, and he says that that we are to live righteously too.
SPEAKER_01: And I will say that if I do have a beef at all, I was what is it?
SPEAKER_01: The beef.
SPEAKER_01: My my beef is why is it so hard to be holy and look holy?
SPEAKER_01: I know.
SPEAKER_01: And act holy.
SPEAKER_01: I know.
SPEAKER_01: What what is this dancing right on the line?
SPEAKER_01: And I hope people.
SPEAKER_01: Stayed long enough to listen to this last few minutes of this podcast.
SPEAKER_01: Because I think it's important that if we're going to hold ourselves accountable for our judgmentalism as an audience, then we also have to hold these artists accountable.
SPEAKER_00: And we can we can not be judgmental, but still correct and still bring and know how to pray.
SPEAKER_01: We don't have to get on the pages and say, why'd you wear that low cut?
SPEAKER_01: I don't, I, you know, whatever the negative thing is, um you're gyrating too much.
SPEAKER_01: Too much.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: You don't like the world.
SPEAKER_01: And I know that I know from myself that I have seen some of the artists I absolutely adore.
SPEAKER_01: I love they bless my life.
SPEAKER_01: And it's grieved me.
SPEAKER_01: Let's be honest with you.
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
SPEAKER_01: No, it's just I I've been in their concerts and I see some things and I'm like, why?
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: You have the power of the Holy Spirit on your side and you're dancing like Michael Jackson.
SPEAKER_00: Why?
SPEAKER_00: I I think I can say why from in one lane.
SPEAKER_00: I can't say why across the board, but I know even from my own experience when the doors started to really open, then you've got people that want to work with you.
SPEAKER_00: I've been wanting to work with you.
SPEAKER_00: And then you've got people that are not necessarily like spirit-filled Christians that are building careers, and then they have open doors and they start, they start, and you know the devil knows how to sell you your dream.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: And it and that's why it you if as an artist, if if the doors are opening, you've got to stay so discerning and keep the main thing, the main thing, keep your first love in front of you because the devil will know you before you know it, you're starting, you're being offered to do.
SPEAKER_00: I remember um back in the day, Danielle, Nicole was about 14, 15 years old.
SPEAKER_00: So this was about 10 years ago, 10, 11 years, 10, 11 years ago.
SPEAKER_00: And things were really growing, maybe 20, no, 13, 14 years ago.
SPEAKER_00: Nobody cares.
SPEAKER_00: Okay, but it was right when everybody was doing like uh everybody was doing uh reality shows.
SPEAKER_00: Reality shows were becoming the thing.
SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, when you start getting success in one area, you go, man, but I if I could do this, I could do that.
SPEAKER_00: So then now you're like, man, you're up here.
SPEAKER_00: I'm up here, you're up here, you and all these opportunities start coming.
SPEAKER_00: So this is what you do.
SPEAKER_00: And you're creative and you've got lots of talent, man.
SPEAKER_00: I could be a superstar.
SPEAKER_00: I know.
SPEAKER_00: And the world is being handed to you.
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
SPEAKER_00: And it feels right, and this that that's not wrong in itself if God's called you to that.
SPEAKER_00: But I remember that we had I had an opportunity to do a reality show.
SPEAKER_00: Well, it was when Oprah had just started her network, and um, of course they were looking for content.
SPEAKER_00: They needed content.
SPEAKER_00: And at that point, they probably would have taken just about anything to create content.
SPEAKER_00: And I got an invitation to do this reality show, like housewives, pastors' wives of Orlando.
SPEAKER_00: And I had some friends of mine that were a part of it.
SPEAKER_00: And I remember I was in the kitchen and I was so excited.
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, this is it.
SPEAKER_00: This is this, this was not anything that I saw on my radar.
SPEAKER_00: I remember you called me and I was like, oh my God, it's so exciting! You know, it was so great.
SPEAKER_00: And thank God we have our older sister who does not get excited about stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00: She keeps me measured, and I'll tell you what she said.
SPEAKER_00: But um, Nicole is watching TV and she's just got her back to me.
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, so we've got this idea, and we're gonna do this Housewives of Orlando, or Pastors Wives of Orlando.
SPEAKER_00: And Nicole, who is my happiest child, the most bubbly, outgoing, loud, fun.
SPEAKER_00: She does not even look around and she goes, We're not doing that.
SPEAKER_00: I said, What in the world are you?
SPEAKER_00: You're not the parent.
SPEAKER_00: I said, Yeah, babe, this is a you don't understand.
SPEAKER_00: Let me give you more information.
SPEAKER_00: I don't need any more information.
SPEAKER_00: Mom, no.
SPEAKER_00: And she was not excited about it.
SPEAKER_00: It did not, she didn't go, my mom's gonna be a start.
SPEAKER_00: She was like, We're not doing that.
SPEAKER_00: And I was shocked.
SPEAKER_00: I was because I thought, well, I can't force my family to do something and then they won't do it.
SPEAKER_00: And so then I called our sister Marveline and I started to talk to her about it.
SPEAKER_00: And then I I went from feeling really good about it to getting a serious check in my spirit.
SPEAKER_00: And uh, end of the day, I I pulled out of it Marveline.
SPEAKER_00: I talked to her and she said, Well, you know, the thing that you love about anything that you love about a reality show, usually the people that star in it are the ones who edit it.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And they don't they don't leave it to somebody else to create the narrative.
SPEAKER_00: And I said, Good point.
SPEAKER_00: I never thought about that.
SPEAKER_00: And so I pulled out of it and never did it.
SPEAKER_00: I just couldn't get a piece about it.
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what happens sometimes.
SPEAKER_00: You're up there, and then all these things start getting handed to you.
SPEAKER_00: That's why we need to pray for people.
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that's the point.
SPEAKER_01: When you do see that and it grieves you, and we've talked about it, we don't call that person.
SPEAKER_01: There's pe there's artists we know personally.
SPEAKER_01: Of course.
SPEAKER_01: But we don't reach out, we don't get to the person that we know that's two and three degrees separation and go, will you please tell them?
SPEAKER_01: Why are they doing that?
SPEAKER_01: We just go, Lord, keep them covered.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_01: Just like Noah's children covered him.
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
SPEAKER_01: We try to cover.
SPEAKER_01: Now, there are times, listen, you can't cover, and if they're gonna spiral all the way out and get into sin, there's nothing you could do.
SPEAKER_00: But what elevating it to where the whole body of Christ now knows, I don't see the benefit of that.
SPEAKER_01: Well, if once now everybody's in the discussion room, right, saying horrible things, that what does that do?
SPEAKER_01: It yields zero fruit.
SPEAKER_01: I don't see that it doesn't.
SPEAKER_01: So you might as well just back out and just say, God, the music blesses me, but I'm gonna pray for this artist.
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
SPEAKER_01: Because I see some things optically, my spirit's picking up on some things.
SPEAKER_01: Lord, keep them from stepping off the edge, that they don't go too secular, that they're not lured in by the lures of the enemy, that the same Holy Spirit that quickened you through your daughter, who was a teenager at your teenager at the time, will be that same Holy Spirit that's that quickens them.
SPEAKER_01: That does not edify the body of Christ.
SPEAKER_01: Because the struggle that I do have, and you do too, yeah, is when we see godly people, so-called godly people, writing songs, biggest platforms, biggest ministries, and there's just things that they're doing publicly.
SPEAKER_01: We're not talking about privately.
SPEAKER_01: We're seeing some things publicly that makes our spirits go, ooh, that's not holy.
SPEAKER_01: That's not righteous.
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's my biggest question and my biggest frustration that I have in this day and age.
SPEAKER_01: Why is it so hard to be holy as a Christian?
SPEAKER_01: Why so desperately do we want to hang on to our Christian artist label, but look just like the world where nobody could tell the difference?
SPEAKER_01: And I know that there's people going, what does it matter what you wear?
SPEAKER_01: Because it's guilt by association, guys.
SPEAKER_01: You people look at you and they sum you up by what they see.
SPEAKER_01: Well, they need to see through spirit eyes.
SPEAKER_01: No, they don't.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: No, they don't.
SPEAKER_01: We represent the kingdom of God.
SPEAKER_01: We represent the boulders of holies.
SPEAKER_01: Why don't you want to?
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: That I think that's my biggest question.
SPEAKER_01: I'm not judging their heart.
SPEAKER_01: I'm not questioning their motives or their intentions, but I just say to myself, and I ask God, when I pray for them, Lord, help them see, grieve their spirit, yeah, make them pull back where they'll say what that young girl said.
SPEAKER_01: Guys, look, you're right.
SPEAKER_01: I mean, if if you have come out of homosexuality, but yet you're still dressing like you're in homosexuality or on both sides, why?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, why not come out from among them?
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: Why be a stumbling block to anybody?
SPEAKER_01: Why put the question mark over your head?
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Why?
SPEAKER_01: Just be holy.
SPEAKER_01: It's just a question.
SPEAKER_01: I'm asking, not judging, yeah, not mad at anybody.
SPEAKER_01: We'll still love the ministry.
SPEAKER_01: I've unfollowed and followed people back more times than I could tell you.
SPEAKER_01: Because even for me, I don't ever want to get into a place where I would be so harsh against somebody who is preaching the word, delivering the word, or singing the word, where it's blessing us.
SPEAKER_01: We're singing these songs in our churches.
SPEAKER_01: Of course.
SPEAKER_01: They're blessing people.
SPEAKER_01: And and do we all need to live holy?
SPEAKER_01: Yes, we need to live holy, but because he is holy, not just because we're singing holy songs, but because it's dishonoring to God to not live holy.
SPEAKER_01: And then when we are the ambassadors of this music, of the Spirit of God, of what's happening in the earth today through music, I don't want to sing songs and I won't sing songs from people who are living outwardly that aren't they're not living righteously.
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, the song in my mind stands alone from that artist.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
SPEAKER_01: You don't punish the song because of the artist.
SPEAKER_01: And we know that personally because of our own lives and our own father.
SPEAKER_01: That song is still being sung today around the world.
SPEAKER_01: I know.
SPEAKER_01: And yet people don't know and they'll never know that he died in his alcohol.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: And so what you're saying is from a from a standpoint of where where where you are as an artist, whatever age you are, whatever door God's opened for you, God's given you a gift to write, to sing, to put something into the world.
SPEAKER_00: And God's going to use it.
SPEAKER_00: He's going to elevate it.
SPEAKER_00: And in turn, you know, like Esther had to find favor with God and with man.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_00: When you find favor with man, that's where you have to be discerning.
SPEAKER_00: And you have to be so discerning that the right men, the right people, it's the right thing.
SPEAKER_00: And that's why staying in a place of uh submission to God and saying, Lord, you bring the right people around me, you make sure that I'm following, develop that that discernment in me.
SPEAKER_00: It can easily get lost, especially when you're just traveling a lot, you're gone a lot, you're not home, you're not submitted to a church body.
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
SPEAKER_00: You don't have to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_00: You might not have a leader or a pastor.
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
SPEAKER_00: Um, it could be that you just wish you hadn't worn that outfit.
SPEAKER_00: I know.
SPEAKER_00: You didn't mean anything by I don't have a bunch of money to somebody could look at what I'm wearing and be like, what the heck is that?
SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, I they asked me to come in and sit down and do this.
SPEAKER_00: I didn't get to do that.
SPEAKER_01: And we put hats on, not because we're trying to look cool, we just haven't washed our hair.
SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, we have to get ready for church tonight and we just put these on.
SPEAKER_00: And we're trying to look cool.
SPEAKER_00: But see, people could say those ladies wearing hat trucker hats.
SPEAKER_00: They're trying to be.
SPEAKER_00: Are these trucker hats?
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
SPEAKER_00: See, we're not trying to be nothing.
SPEAKER_00: But I no, but that's my point.
SPEAKER_00: It's so easy to see, it's it's not just one quick answer.
SPEAKER_00: No, it's not.
SPEAKER_00: To sum it all up.
SPEAKER_00: I think yes, that's right.
SPEAKER_00: We do need to be more holy.
SPEAKER_00: I see a lot of people, it's like, okay, that was a choice.
SPEAKER_00: Right?
SPEAKER_00: That was a choice.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, I know that they love God.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_00: They're trying to please God.
SPEAKER_00: So I say if they're making the wrong choices, they're gonna burn out.
SPEAKER_00: There's an end to that.
SPEAKER_00: If you're not leaning on so, Holy Spirit, speak to them.
SPEAKER_00: I would never sit and just call people's names out because I wouldn't want to be called out.
SPEAKER_00: I I think there's something to be said, not publicly.
SPEAKER_00: Now, maybe if there's a conversation privately that someone has a question or a concern, that would be different.
SPEAKER_00: But I just think that if we haven't prayed, interceded, felt the the the the heartbeat or the heart of that person, and we go straight to strict criticism and judgmentalism.
SPEAKER_00: Right, I think we're I think that's where we cross the line.
SPEAKER_00: I do too.
SPEAKER_01: And I think we need to keep talking, but not today.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we've got more we've got so much more to say that was powerful.
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
SPEAKER_01: We finally got to say it.
SPEAKER_01: We've said it so much to each other, we've talked about this to our kids.
SPEAKER_01: Um I hope the listeners liked it.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: See what they take away from it, let's see what they think.