ChatGPT vs. Twin Pastors on What's Wrong with Church Culture

In this hard-hitting discussion, identical twins and pastors Mary Alessi and Martha Munizzi investigate why the next generation is so anti-church and compare their answers to what ChatGPT thinks.

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:00

So I want to dive into this today with you. This was a question that was posed on our social media page. And it the question is what is happening in the church today and what could make it better? Hot take. I like it. So we've been talking about it. And then I put it in Chat GPT. Thank you, ChatGPT. And it gave a great answer. So we're going to talk about what we believe. You're a pastor. Right. I'm a pastor. We work alongside our husbands. You're in Orlando. I'm in Miami and we've been in the church our whole lives. Right. We're both multiple generation kids. And you've pastored a lot longer than me, but I've traveled to hundreds of churches. Hundreds and hundreds. And in my travel days, so I know how churches have done it. I've seen so many things behind the scenes. So we've got a lot to share about it. We do. And let's see what ChatGPT says, and then we'll ask Jesus what he thinks. Okay. It says, what's happening in the church today and what could make it better? I'm just going to read a few little highlights, okay? Today the church is at a crossroads. In many places, it's experiencing a decline in attendance. I would say that's true. Right. Especially after COVID. Yes. 30%, they say, maybe it's a little bit better numbers, but 30% of Christians who attended before COVID have not returned. They're watching online. Right, right. And that's that's a that's a big job for the pastors to get people back. That's right. Um, especially there's a decline in attendance among the younger generations. Right. Which for both of us, we our kids represent this next generation. And they they love the house of God. Right. But they are seeing their peers uh attending less and less. Okay. But it does say that there are certain pockets where there's vibrant growth. So it's not all dead. Right. This whole generation is not lost. Okay, so what else is happening? It says there's a growing hunger for authenticity, relevance, and community. What do you think about that? I think that's spot on. Good job, Chat GPT. I think there is a hunger and a desire for people to find a place that is relevant to what they're going through. Sure. A place that does feed them based on, you know, what their life looks like and where they're hungry, and a place to belong is how we're wired. We are made to be known to know and to be known by God, right? But by other people too. And but I think it's just awakening the culture to their greatest need. Maybe they don't realize it. Have you ever thought, taking a minute and thought about the churches we grew up in? Pastor Plastic. Right. Okay. I'm just being honest. Yeah. This says the younger generation wants authenticity, so let's give it to them. Yeah. But the the we were in churches all of our childhood and growing up where the pastor's wife was extremely formal. Right. There was very little relationship, connection with her. She looked like she'd sucked on a persimmon most of the morning. Yep. She was not a happy person. Um, the pastor would either be overcompensating for something or there was some struggle and we all knew it, but we just that's what we knew. Right. Have you ever thought could your young adults, your kids, tolerate an environment like that? What with what we grew up in? Oh, I don't think they could have they could not handle not only that, but just the limited resources that we had. That's very true. I mean, they they don't realize you you didn't just put in a couple of letters and words in a Google and outcome, you know, multi-tracks. Right. Oh my god. And hundreds of songs to choose from. No. You didn't have the the benefit or the luxury of saying, that song's old, I don't like that song. We only did old songs. We sang the same hymns or songs every single Sunday. And then we would hit see certain seasons of writers and people that would put music out that was good, but then it was over our heads. We couldn't duplicate it. Right. Horns and saxophone and all that. Thank you, Ron Cannoli. Right. We loved it, but we couldn't, we couldn't bring that to life in our own church. Right. So then, of course, you know, we have multi-tracks now, but back in the day, you know, if you wanted to do Fred Hammond, you weren't gonna do it. No. Unless you had a killer band, which you probably didn't. So that alone, I don't know that they could handle that easy it is now. But but I'm also talking about the relationship like between the pastor and his wife, just the overchurched kind of anyway. Well, they were all older. They were it seems like the pastors were way older. You didn't really see a lot of young people. Or you didn't really know them. No. You only knew them with a microphone or in the lobby, shaking your hand. It was to be very old, yeah, that kind of thing. So that's what we grew up with. Right. Um also it says there's a growing hunger, not only for authenticity and relevance. And I would say this authenticity because the church went through the wave after COVID of just the fall. It was like it was like the fall of 2020. Right. The fall, not the season of the fall, the fall, when everyone that we loved and revered just got erased. Yes. That came out with these traumatic immoralities that blew everybody's mind. And we know this from being in ministry for so many years, that when a popular pastor or evangelist or whatever falls so publicly, you can lose a lot of young people that want nothing to do with the faith. And you can't blame them. You cannot get mad at that. We lose credibility. That's right. I I I heard one pastor say one time, and I won't say names, um, after he had had an immoral fall and left his family and left his wife, he actually I thought this was so insensitive of him. But when you're when you're deceived, you re you believe your own deception, right? But he made the statement, I told you from the beginning, I told my people, first of all, not your people, dude. Right. God's people. That's right. But anyway, I told my people not to follow me. I'm following Christ and I'm barely keeping it together. I told them, I warned, like it's your fault that I had an affair in the church and left my family. Okay, anyway. Okay, that's the pastor coming out right there. There it is. I would like I would like to stand up in that congregation. Go, excuse me, I have some things I'd like to say. That is how you lead people astray. That's right. And I think this next generation's sick of that. It's gaslighting. It is. I did wrong, but you're the reason I did wrong. Yeah. I'm gonna make you feel bad that I'm gonna do that. You should have known better. This is I'm shifting this back on you. Well, I think this next generation coming up, it talk about resourced and educated. Yes. They know, they know they can smell it a mile away. And hopefully they can. I mean, we do see some, we do see some names and some popular faces coming up in messages. That that it scares me a little bit. Right. And we talk about that because it's the same old thing, it's the same old spirit. And we pray for those, those voices and those people who are gaining influence. Just don't lead this next generation that you have in your care astray. Live what you believe, live what you preach, man. Exactly. Just live what you preach. And honestly, I think that's the authenticity that I know my young adult kids are craving. I know we crave. There's nothing that I respond better to than when a pastor gets up and can actually talk about the struggles and the conflicts that are real that he's had. He and his wife raising kids. It is hard, man. Got in a fight on the way to church, still struggling at the end of the day. Thank you. That's what I need. That's so life-giving. Thank you. Because now I realize, okay, I'm not crazy. That happens to me. And I think, too, it's the generation that we can actually teach. Don't put your eyes on man. It's the balance of we honor and respect authority, but they're gonna hurt you. They're gonna do things that are gonna, they they could fall, or they could just be somebody you don't like, or they could hurt your feelings, or whatever. Don't put so much stock in a person to where if they fall, you're just crushed. Right. And I think that's the generation too. They're they're just kind of opting out of everything because this person does not. You're gonna disappoint me. This next person is gonna disappoint me. If you have a strong relationship, it really it goes back to do as ever do everything as under the Lord. Right. And I know that's not easy because we want validation from man and we want to be patted on the back. But at the end of it all, if we don't, it's a great lesson for us and an exercise to say, God, my validation, my purpose, my worth, my value comes from you. You see everything I do, whether I'm ever validated by man or not. And then when that person or if that person has a failure or does they don't even have a failure, they might make a decision you don't like. Right. We're not crushed or disillusioned because of that. Yeah. You can't keep your, you can't seek um praise of man pastor or otherwise. You and you know, the truth is that's a whole podcast on its own. It is. Because we we've been hearing from other uh podcasts and teachings that are out there where there seems to be a um very strong dissatisfaction with the culture of churches that are are are actually instead of discipling, they're demanding. Right. And there's this um pressure that people feel about serving, serving, serving, but without the relational component where you are known and known, they're getting very disillusioned and they're leaving. Okay, but you and I, we're gonna, we need to do a whole podcast on that. Yeah. Because there is a balance that people need to learn how to strike and they have to use discernment to do it. And yes, we need to serve the body, yes, we need to serve the kingdom, yes, we need to be the ones that are the hands and feet of Jesus, but we need to also be aware that if that ministry we're a part of doesn't also have in its right hand relationship, right? We love you here, and when even when you're not serving, you're still a part of this ministry. Yes. So, anyway, we need to talk about that, but that's another podcast. Okay, here we go. Chat GPT. What does Chat GPT say? Okay. Um, it says that at the same time, there's a positive shift toward deeper discipleship and mental health awareness. I hate that term. I do too. In the body of Christ. But it's a thing. It's a thing. Yeah. Um, and a willingness to address hard questions instead of avoiding them. I think that's I we were made for that. Oh, I I love answering the hard questions and not avoiding the difficult conversations. Me, me too. I think that's well, first of all, when you've lived through some pretty dangerous storms. Right. You we've been through some stuff. In our culture, we have, yeah. And and I'm talking about us personally. Oh, yes, absolutely. Our story of what we went to from the time we were 13 till the time we got married, after that, the ministry transitions, the exposure to pastors who had a dark side. Well, even as kids watching celebrity pastors fall. People don't know our dad was in the I'm not, I don't want to say names because they're all still alive, right? But our dad was kind of in the center of some of the most famous pastors. They're still out there that had major moral faults. Major. So we were exposed to that where it could you could almost say you and me would just expect that of our pastors. But we still stand on the timeless truth of God's word. Right. So, anyway, my point in bringing that up is I forgot why we're that was so preachy, timeless truth of God's word. Well, that's what Chat GPT says. That's unsurprisingly. I was able to read ahead and I saw it and I just read the timeless truth of God's word. Well, no, I think again, well, that goes back to it's funny because it said authenticity and then it says it, you know. Oh no, uh, they're there it's searching for now, people are surf searching for deeper discipleship. I think that's true. You think it's true? I think it's true. Do you think that people are shaking his head? Do you think that people are looking that looking for that the majority are? I think the I think the under 30s are. Okay. I think if you're under 30 years old right now, you are coming up short. Oh no, 100%. Without being disciples. Well, I can tell you from my vantage point, I'm not 30, under 30, but from my vantage point, from pastoring, right? Starting to pastor, I do most of the teaching on Sundays. And uh we have a teaching team that helped too, but I do a lot of it. And just studying to preach every Sunday, I started feeling like I got robbed. I grew up in church my whole life and I heard great teaching. But I would say a big chunk of it was more motivational speaking, more stirring, and which I love all that too. I think you should be in church and be motivated. But there wasn't Bible teaching. It was like a narcissist kind of a thing, you know, like it's all about how do you see yourself in scripture, which I think of course we do. We see, you know, our life and we're and you know, what God did for the people of Israel, he'll do for you. Like, yes, we believe all those promises are yes and amen. But even how to share my faith, like I didn't even have the basics of you know, the of truly of who Jesus is and why he is who he is, and what are the the scientific data of who he is, like really understand why I'm a Christian and why I can share my faith based on not just God's word, but but data. So I didn't have any of that growing up. So I would say people should look for churches that have a Sunday school approach to their teaching. And your church has the relational component where you're discipling, because it's such a nice size right now, right, that you know everybody and everybody knows you. Not everybody, you know, it's it's too big to know everyone, but you know the majority of your people, you can follow up on them, you can put your finger on the pulse of their faith and find out where they are and speak to that. Right. When the churches get so large that you barely know anybody from the pulpit to the pew, and you look out in your audience and you're like, I don't know. I all my staff is working, all the core people are serving. Right. Uh who are all of these folks? It's a it's a very different thing. They can turn into an audience really quick. Right. And they're not, you still have to disciple them. So offering, you know, where I learned was at my local church, and I took uh Bible courses that the church offered called Advancing in Ministry Courses, and I learned all about the character of God. I learned all about how to witness, how to, and we grew up in church. I know. You can grow up in church and not know any of the fundamentals and grow up in church and sit in services and develop a gift, right, but not really know God for yourself. Yeah. And I think this next generation, I really do, Martha. I think that the the coming generation, they're putting a demand on the leaders who really wish we'd be asked to give them more because we're sick of hearing and having to prepare for just a message that tickles everybody's ears. Don't, don't, uh, don't upset anybody, don't chase anybody off. Right. Because the audience we've been told in the last 20 years doesn't want to hear that. No, they don't want to be challenged, they just want to feel good. Right. And the problem with that is that's there's truth in that, but now we live in podcast land. Right. No, that's true. Really, YouTube channels everywhere, debates happening nonstop. People are jumping on the bandwagon of having these really, you know, you see a thumbnail and you see like a title of a video that just draw it's so kind of like salacious, it just draws you in. He, you know, he was he was crushed when this debate happened. Or what is it that they say on these videos? Um He was humiliated, he was shut down. Yeah. Yeah. When you watch these videos and you see, oh yeah, he was humiliated when he said this. He was, you know, whatever. And you're like, what? Who was humiliated? I need to see that. So everything is kind of uh clickbait. Clickbait. And the church, so here we are just trying to rah-rah, but the so many uh average people throughout the week, they're dieting on kind of like this really like a harsh debate back and forth, um, arguing all through it's hard to find that. Like the news media has now been saturated into so many different outlets that you can't get away from seeing all of the just that fighting and infighting about political things. Now it's spiritual things. Now we're seeing YouTubers and podcasters, they'll drop a video about something that they know is gonna be something that will bring conflict. Right. They know that's something to say, like a soundbite that's gonna, and okay, fine, it gets people watching. Yeah, but is it creating a culture where people actually are becoming a little bit more addicted to that volatile, you know. Yes, I think they are, but energy. I think the next generation who grew up on that is so tired of it. And if they click on it and they can't find where the conflict is because it was all it was was clickbait, that to them is is a lie. Right. So I think they're sick of it. And they don't want that to translate into the church. Don't just do whatever you can to get me in the building. Right. Give me, I'm coming to the house of God. I'm coming to church because I need God to be real. I need God's word to be true. And I think I really believe that we are moving into a time, Martha, where the old hellfire and brimstone messages, where we actually say the word sin in our sermons. Oh, yes. Where we aren't just click baiting it to death. When they come here, there's not just, it's not just on the pastor to deliver this convicting word. Right. That same thing's happening in the lobby and one-on-one in our connect groups where we're holding people accountable and we have an honest, open dialogue because of the relationship side. That's why I go back to a church is lopsided when every truth only comes from the pastor. Right. You have to have in one hand, you have that relationship of accountability where your leaders, yeah, you know, we're all on the same page with understanding we're discipling. Discipling is messy, it's dirty, it's long-suffering. You want to quit most of the time. Is this person really worth all this investment? Right. Well, if they matter to Jesus, they have to matter to you. And it's just so much easier to get up and speak in front of an audience. I know. And if you don't like it, you can leave. Right. The people, amen, and people, amen, and you, it makes it so easy. And I'll just jump on and get on my podcast and there'll be more people. I'll just use my gifts and my talents and my charisma and draw new people in. Yeah. But you have to be mindful as leaders, the fruit of your life and the fruit of your life's work. Yeah. What are you producing? And Jesus told us, go ye therefore and make disciples. It he did not say, go ye therefore and build large churches, large churches. Well, you have stories like that. I have stories like that of people in your church that a few years ago you were telling me earlier about how they were working with influencers and working with celebrities, and and you would ask about if they ever shared their faith. And they said, Well, I don't really feel comfortable sharing my faith. I would never want to push anything on them. And that that concerns you. And you went back and said, Hey, let me correct that. That's right. You have an op and then giving the that person the tools to do it. And then years later, they had a health scare that scared them into like now. I'm telling Jesus, everybody, everybody I know about Jesus. And they're filling up the rows. Yes, people with those. Because they had a health scare. Right. The people that they didn't want to push their beliefs on. Now they're like, everybody's got to know who Jesus is. And I think that's the difference in our churches and our lives when people really have an authentic encounter with Jesus. I do too. Everything changes. That's what I love about the people that walk off the street. They'll, oh, how'd you find us? Oh, we Google churches in our neighborhood and they walk in. Or we'll have a, we've had people that come to our church and they came on the day we had Baptism Sunday, and they just, I don't know, I just felt like I needed to go to church today, and I saw the sign, and they walk in and they're like, I want to know Jesus. I want to get baptized, I want to go through your steps class, I want to go through, and the next thing you know, they're they're leading in your church three years later. And they're in kids ministry helping you to be able to do that. And then you've got people that have been sitting on the pews of our churches for years. It's like, are you gonna take another step? Like, where when was the last time you invited somebody to church? You know, it's so easy to just criticize. Why are all these people here? Where aren't they? No, who, what this is from from a pastoral perspective. I've only been pastoring 10 years, you've been 30 years. But my my heart as a pastor is to is to help people understand. We're not called to sit in the pew. This is we're we're called to reach people in the world and bring them and live a life that minister to the ministers to them every single day. Yeah. If you work by somebody, you can help pastors, shepherd them. Right. It's not just in the church. It's so easy to say, well, the pastor will do that, or the worship leader will do that, or whatever. No, you as a believer, the Bible says he who wins souls is wise. Right. Wisdom will come when you start soul winning. And I think that's where there's um the balance for people can be tricky because we can get bad doctrine. Yeah. And we really think that it's I'm gonna serve and I'm gonna I'm gonna be a part of the dream team or whatever the team is. But it's really the pastor's responsibility to grow this church. Right. We were not raised on that doctrine. We were not, Martha. Oh no. We were pulling everybody that you get your friends and you get them to the church because left behind is real. Yes. We saw the movie. Frank Paretti book was all about salvation, getting your friends saved. And it was a strong. We sure did. We when we were, remember when we were 16 years old, we had our own, we only had one birthday party. I don't think we had ever had another birthday party except for one. We were 16. We were 16, and we invited everybody that we could from school. The the the head of the football team came, the quarterback. Yep, the we had all of our friends, like influential friends from high school. And they came to our church, we had pictures of it, and so many of them, we would invite them to church, invite them to Wednesday nights, constantly cut, come, come, come. Many of them came and got saved because of that. But that was because there was this burden that was on us from our leaders, yes, that if you don't win people, they're gonna drag you to hell too. You know, you just you used a word. Word burden, that is a great word because it's not all the pastor's burden. Right. It's his calling to pastor the church. The burden has to be on every believer. Right. Every believer. If we all would carry this load, we would stop getting it so jacked up. And if people go to churches where it's toxic and not healthy, get out. Right. Go to a healthy place, right? That's right. You don't have to go to the most famous church in the city. There's a lot of churches. Quit that. Some people just want to feel like they're a part of the biggest hot you know thing going. Well, that's pride. Right. Go where you're effective, go where there's discipling. Just go. And go to a church where you can serve and grow and have relationships and have people to invite to your birthday party. But the I I the question that it goes on to ask is what could make it better? I think the perspective of it's all of our burden. That's right. Is a great way to start making it better. That's right. We have I, if I'm sitting in the pew or I'm I am responsible for the sermon, whatever it is, there's a burden that we all have to find out who's in the room that doesn't know Jesus. That's number one. Yeah. And help you know Jesus. Right. I mean, isn't that it? That's our why. That's our why. And then secondly, we're all gonna have to fight flesh here. Yes. So let's help one another by being humble, being transparent. Right. I got flesh, you got flesh. Our pastor has it, the person that is in the parking lot has it. None of us are different. We might have we might have more responsibility and higher callings. Yes. But that just means that person you better pray the most for. That's right. Pray for your pastor, that God would lead him. I think what would make it better is that all of us took a lesson in self-awareness and really checked ourselves before we wrecked ourselves. Because it's not just pastors that fall that are the problem. No. Because he can't be lifted up to fall if not for congregations that are happy to put him on pastel. You know, it's so true. You know what we did? Because we take discipleship very seriously in our church. I know you guys do as well. And for Easter, about six weeks before Easter, we I found these really good little booklets called the Case for Christ answer booklet. And on the back it says 20 of the top uh questions that people ask about Christianity. And it's so good. How do we know if Jesus is real? And it talks about the manuscripts. It talks about all the scientific data that many people don't know that it even exists. Exactly. And it was so good. And I told everyone, I said, you take it and read it and turn it and hand it to someone else and use it to invite people to come to church. And um I I loved so much of what I read, but in the booklet, but it really became this kind of a challenge, you know, for all of us to say, Who are you inviting to church? Yeah. Who are you? And we didn't, we thought this year, we were kind of pulling back a little bit financially too. We didn't do the, you know, thousands of dollars of marketing that we normally do for Easter. We just said, let's see what our church does. Let's see if we've discipled them to reach out and disciple others. Who, who are they going to bring? And we put it in front of them every single week. We made videos, we had who's your one in the lobby and put it in front of them. Like, who's the one person that you're believing God is going to come to church or that is going to come? And it is amazing when the people start to feel that burden to feel as if, no, I've got to, I've got to reach. I have a part to play here. And the and the answer to that question, how do you make it better? Is I make it better by complimenting what's being asked of me, by by saying, I'm going to step into those roles. I'm going to actually do what's I've been I've been asked to do. Right. I'm going to look, maybe not every day, but there's going to be days that I wake up and Lord and say, Lord, am I on assignment today? Right. Is there somebody that you're going to put in my path at work? Is there somebody that needs the love of Jesus? I don't have to be a theologian. Yeah. I don't have to know 20 scriptures and the references. If you know a little bit of a scripture and it's in the Bible somewhere, share that with somebody. Yes. And that's what makes the church better. And it it's it's really in a nutshell, being having the heart of a contributor. Exactly. And not just a consumer. Contribute. It's the same thing that makes a family and a household happy. Right. Contribute. Well, you would. That's what I was going to say. I'm so glad you said that. Because imagine someone that's sitting there watching us today and go, oh, you know, that's for other people. I don't really know people. I don't really think I don't have friends like that. No one I know would ever come to church with me. You know, I kind of like my church the way it is. And I, you know, we have all of our excuses. Imagine if you had a party at your house and you said, I'm going to bring the meat. I'm going to make the main dish. Everybody brings something. Please, everyone bring something. And somebody had the audacity to show up, didn't bring anything, and then just ate, and then just took all these home plates to go home plates. Right. And you'd be like, You didn't bring anything. Right. Why? You don't get it. You didn't contribute anything, and you're gonna you would be so offended. Well, God feels the same way. Right. Absolutely. Pastors feel the same way. When and that's what makes the church better is when Christians get better. That's right. That's what makes God's body stronger when we get stronger. Well, we get back to the house of God and serve it, good, bad, or ugly. And yeah, that's it. And give your pastor to God and pray for him because God is going to take care of his people. That's right. He's gonna take care of his sheep. There is no question about that. And I know we're out of time. I love this conversation, though. Well, yeah, we're supposed to be somewhere real soon here. And we need somebody to keep us on track. I know we can't do what we're doing. This is a great question, though. I think, okay, in a nutshell, how to make the church better? Just keep loving God and loving his people. That's right. And remembering they're his people, they're not ours. That's right. As leaders. And from the church's perspective, a Christian's perspective, be faithful. Be faithful. Get to the house. Contribute. Bring family. With your time, with your love, all that. How many favorite restaurants have closed down? Why? We didn't we didn't go enough. I know. We went when it was convenient. We went when it was a nice celebration. It was a special day. We went and then it was gone. Yeah. We have to finish this podcast, Martha. We're gonna I have an analogy that I want to throw out right now because you keep inspiring me to keep this conversation going. We have to stop. Next part two, that's what we'll do. Part du. Part du. All right. There's another good one. That was awesome. Awesome.