Should Christians Be Famous? Inside the Christian Music Controversy With Mary & Martha

In this episode of The Mary and Martha Show, Mary Alessi and Martha Munizzi dive into the debated topic of Christian artists, fame, and award shows. They get real about the challenges (and joys) of honoring God and each other in a rapidly changing music industry.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi, I'm Mary Martha. And I'm Martha Munazee.

SPEAKER_00 0:03

And you're listening to the Mary Martha Show.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Hey, everybody. Thank you for joining us. We are going to talk about something really good today. I'm excited what we're going to talk about. Controversial. We said we weren't going to be controversial, but sometimes you got to cross some lines and share. That's what I love about this podcast is we use the experiences of our lives to share what we think. And hopefully people will agree with us. But yeah. You're 57.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 0:39

True. I am.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

I'm four minutes older than you. You are. I'm 57 in four minutes.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

So I have that going for me. Gosh.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

I'm going to have arthritis four minutes before. No, you're not.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Don't say that. In Jesus' name.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Might happen. I get got more gray hair four minutes before you.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

You're going to turn 64 minutes before me.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Stop. You? Martha.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

You started it.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Well, that hurts. Oh, chuh. Actually, no, you know what? You know what? I'll take it. I'm ready.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Because you're going to- I know we're all we're going together. We're going together. Let's go. So what are we? Not yet, but we're going to get there. What are we talking about today? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

So I think this is a really cool subject because you know a lot about this, okay? And uh I know I already know what you're gonna say. But in the in the social media world where everything matters. Right. Everything matters. What do you think about this controversy and this back and forth about should worship leaders, worship people, music artists in the Christian industry receive awards for their music?

unknown 1:53

Dun dun dun.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Okay. This is so dramatic. Should Christians be famous? Should Christians. Okay, so I gotta go back just a little, you're asking me this, right? I'm I'm going.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Okay, so I am. You're the one with a wall of awards.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

That's so interesting, right? It's so interesting. But okay, but you gotta go back, you gotta go back 25, even 30 years ago when Christian music was kind of in a little corner in a bubble, and there wasn't all these platforms that we have now to be famous and to be known, and we didn't have, you know, we didn't fill up arenas. Maybe there were one or two pastors or people that did, there were big ministries that started in the 90s. I mean, the 90s were really the rise of mega churches and pastors, and ministry and music really started to change. Um, it started to be a little bit more diverse, but there was still, you know, really hard lines drawn, whether they were spoken out loud or not, there were. There was CCM, right? You know, it kind of had the corner and the market on um ministry and radio. And then, you know, you had gospel music that was still kind of unknown in a lot of circles. Uh, but I always prayed that those two would come together. I prayed, man, if people could come together with the from the CCM and the gospel, once I found gospel music and I heard, you know, mass choirs and it blew my mind. I'm like, I that's where I want to live. I want to live in a land where songs move me and their soul and spirit and you know, and feeling and emotion. I loved it. Um, and so in the last, well, 15 years, 20 years, we're we're seeing the convergence of these different genres. And people that didn't know who gospel artists were on the CCM side and vice versa, are now starting to come together. So it's kind of been like this authentic climb to where we are. No one's really thinking about it. But at the same time, you have the Dove Awards, the GMAs, you have the stellar awards that are for gospel, and now all of a sudden it's so crazy to be sitting here where they didn't even really know about each other for the longest time. Everybody's doing their own thing. Right. Now the conversation is should people get awards? Is it godly? Is it and I think that's really the wrong question. Is God in it? Are we getting what's the right question? Well, it's not even really a question. I think the idea is that we're doing this more for our peers. You know, awards really, again, that sounds horrible, but they don't really have anything to do with God. No, it's whoop, it's I mean, let's let's not be so super spiritual. Can we not be so super spiritual? Because 15 years ago, 12 years ago, the dove awards kind of had to be resurrected. I went to an um, it was a fundraising event to help the doves survive. And the question was at that award show, at that event, should we even keep it going? Like if it's supposed to die, should it die? So this has been a question for years that people have said, is this godly? Is it God honoring? Should we be doing award shows? And my over the years I thought, oh, it's so flesh. And who can, but then I thought once you receive, I've had four stellars and a couple dubs. I'm so grateful. It's amazing. But really, it's just job well done. And and I started looking at it from, and I use this scripture all the time. Esther found favor with God and man. And we just think I only need favor from God. No, she found favor with God and man. You you're gonna need both. You you're gonna God's favor is already on you, but then he wants to help you walk into new realms and earn favor. And unfortunately, people in the world today, they get more excited about your gift than they do about you as a person.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

And right. Well, I I I think from being in this world in the music industry, as we both have been for a long time, our dad wanted a work in 1977 for Song of the Year. He wrote a song. Mom tells the story that at the end of the night, when they they were in a ballroom, it wasn't televised, and every other song that had won, another artist covered it and got up and sang, and it was a tribute to that person who originally wrote or recorded the song. When dad song won, it was the end of the night. They they announced Song of the Year, uh, Learning to Lean, John Stallings, Ralph Carmichael, who was the orchestra conductor, turned around and said to the crowd, we all know this song, let's all stand and sing it together. It was a corporate moment. Did God get the glory for that? Absolutely he did. Dad got an award, but God got the glory because dad obeyed, wrote a song that heaven gave him. And I think we get so jaded. Like, if you don't want to take the award, don't go to the award show. You know, the truth is we both know that you have to submit your music. You've got to fight through the different uh processes and ballots to even get to that point. And it's all a high.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

But okay, but but go back before that, Mary. Ask answer this question. What is the process you go through to even put an album together? Exactly. It's hours, it's months, it could even be a couple of years, and then that's not even counting the the financial part of it all. And and it's for the kingdom. It's all for the kingdom. And so the music is what we give back to God. Anything he gives me, we give it back to God. How many songs and and and albums have you put out, have I put out that people listen to, but they didn't win awards? That they they didn't hit some big giant level of accolade. Some did, some didn't, and I'm grateful, but I don't, if I'm if I if I if I'm not gonna put stock in it, and in other words, I'm just gonna be grateful for it, then that's really all there is. I'm just gonna be grateful. I'm gonna receive it as my peers who know how hard this is, who know the sacrifice, who know the difficult uh process you have to go through to put an album out. Not even spiritually. We're not even talking the spiritual battles that you have to fight to put music out. Is the peers saying, job well done? We recognize that you worked hard. We like yours the most. That's it. So to say it's not God honoring, it's not really for God. It's from God. We thank God for it, but it's for us to say, man, I appreciate what you've given to the world. That's really all it is.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

And I there's a lot of people that are not gonna understand when you say it's not for God, it's for each and every one of us. And if they don't understand what honor is, that God gets pleased, He gets um glory when we honor one another. Come on. So when we are when we're honoring each other because of the gift on our lives, because of the gift we walked in, and we knew how hard it was. Let me tell you something. There's some songs that I hear today, and I just go, I honor that gift. That gift needs to be honored because it's unique, it's special. And God gave that gift. And the person that walks in that gifts gift, they're responsible to give God the glory for that. The trophy that they get may or may not keep them from giving God the glory, but that's not on me. That's not on me. I don't, I don't thwart the power of honor and the blessing of honor because I honor the gift that's on somebody's life, and I am so grateful that they stepped out. I know the obstacles, you know the obstacles. I know how they could have sat on those gifts. Right. But to get into this place of painting everything with the same brush and because I think it's true. I I thought the answer was a little bit lame-mo, though. Well, when they the and you know, people know who we're talking about. We don't have to name names, but well, we'll name names. It's a podcast, you can say whatever you want. But when Forrest Frank made that statement about I don't think you should get a Christian should get awards. I understood that. We've all heard that. I've been down that road, and I don't judge him for thinking that way. And then, of course, the response from Jelly Roll was, well, then you shouldn't take me either. I understand thinking that. They're both wrong. Right. They're both wrong. The the point of it is there were women that followed Jesus that funded his ministry. He could not have done what he did without the finances to do what he did. Um, there were people that were around Jesus that God had that they were gifted to do what they were called to do. There was great honor in that. There was great accolade in that. God is honored when we walk out and use our gifts. So I don't think that it is wrong to get money and to be blessed and to be able to do what you're called to do and be paid to do it. What is wrong with that? Absolutely nothing. I think we get stuck between God of mammon um mindset and we don't understand. Look, it's kingdom purposes. We are is it building the kingdom? Yes. Well, then you're responsible for giving God the You are Forrest Frank, you are Jelly Roll, you are Brandon Lick, you are Mary Alessie, you are Martha Munizzi. We're responsible for saying to God be all the glory for what he's given me. And I'm grateful for my peers honoring me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

But ultimately, God gets it. Well, it's so true. And at the end of the day, you know, when if I'm doing an interview in someone who doesn't know my music, but they see when you've won a dove, you've won Stellars, whoa, wait a minute here, what does it do? It gets people's attention to not to me, but to what I've created that God gave me. And I I had to forget, forgive myself a long time ago or overlook these feelings of it's kind of like it's feels like, you know, um, I'm I'm trying to push down pride, but really it is a form of pride that I don't want to push myself. And I don't want, well, I'm not pushing me. You know, God gave it's the parable of the talents. God gave me a gift. I want him to be glorified. I want to use my gift to use as far as I can to give God the glory. How wherever it takes me, God opened the door so I can I I got a chance to be on a live uh radio. Um I got a chance to be on Atlanta Live. It was a local news station. And there was a Christian producer that brought me in and I got to talk about church and God and music. They gave me a whole segment. Well, you know, if I said, Well, I don't want to be prideful, I don't want to push myself. No, they didn't know I was available until someone said, Hey, she's in she's gonna be in Atlanta. I think we just forget the practical side of things that we've got to, it's the parable of the talents. What did you do with what God gave you? And and again, the other thought that came to me when we were talking about awards and all that, I was thinking, you know, on our team or in a family, or you know, like on our volunteer team at our church, every once in a while we give an award to somebody who's like MVP, somebody that's, you know, shown up the most or been the best. It's encouraged because God knows we need that fresh breath of air, of encouragement, of saying, you did good, and I'm breathing this on you. And your family, your brothers, your sisters are coming around alongside you saying, Man, we just honor you. We see you, and you need that sometimes. It's life-giving. And I don't think award shows are any different. Now, if it becomes fleshly and worldly, but it's funny how people go. Well, then we all bow out. Then we quit.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Those of us who have, we just don't, we don't participate, but we're not gonna, we're not gonna lump the whole thing into something.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

I saw the the Dove Awards this year, which I thought was one of the best shows I have seen. It was so good. And at the end, and so many people, I mean, it was anointed. I watched it on on uh YouTube, but it was so anointed. Oh, it was fantastic. And at the very end, well, the very the opening of the show, King and Country, they had like these flash pots and fire. It was so cool. Everybody loved it. And at the closing of the show, it was Jelly Roll and John Baptiste and uh Brandon Lake, and they had water coming down. And I saw people comment, it's so worldly, you know, water coming down. That's such from the world. And I was like, you don't have any problem with the fire. Like the fire was cool. What's wrong with water? You know, I mean, it could be Well, the world didn't create water or fire. Let's chill out. I I'm not saying that we can't cross lines, but we're we're doing the best we can. We're excited. We get a chance to to perform in front of all of our peers and like people work for years and never get that opportunity. Let's celebrate one another. And I really believe that the the the culture today needs to see Christians more unified than ever. We need to stand up for each other.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Well, that's uh listen, that that that's hitting the nail on the head because the truth is why be divisive like that? Why throw that grenade out there? It makes me question if it's just a way to get likes, views, and responses. Well, because I I I think two can play that game. You can criticize trophies and and awards for Christians. I could criticize that you're divisive and you're a fire. And you're critical. But the truth is you're critical. It's a good conversation to have, but let's talk about it, let's process it. And from people who have gone to award shows, been on award shows, received awards, also nominated and didn't win. Yes. There's so many different dynamics and responses to that because I've I've submitted my music several times and didn't win. I've submitted and I got a nomination for Song of the Year, but we didn't win. But you know what? I it was an honor. I thought it was great. It got me in the room with people like that were peers. I learned a lot. But here's the true Hollywood story, Martha. There's not a lot of glamour. Is it when you're really there at the Double Awards? When we did that show together and you and I opened several years ago, it cost us so much money to be on that show.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

It sure did.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

I mean, that's just the reality. We had to pay for it. Everybody that's there is paying for it. So they want to be on the show. They're they're sewing into it. We were in a little tiny room. Our podcast booth is probably four times, five times the size of that room that four artists women with big hair, guitars, makeup artists, crammed into this teeny tiny little cell. And there was, it wasn't glamorous. I mean, you're taken right back to your early industry days, you know. So I I think we've got to be very, we've got to be honest about um how we put that out there. Like there's all this glamour in it when we've been behind the scenes. Right. You know, I remember being in the hallway and there's Kirk Franklin and there's Mary Mary, and everybody's just waiting to get dressed and get out, we're all high-fiving each other. And I that's not name-dropping, that's the reality of the experience. But I decided the next year I didn't want to spend money.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Is that it?

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Yeah. But if we think, if we paint the picture for people who don't know and aren't behind the scenes and they don't realize what actually goes on, and we create this false image, well, that's dangerous. Because it could turn people's hearts against kingdom builders that are coming out of the music industry. And I think and we're responsible.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

We are, and I think it does leave kind of a sour taste in people's mouths when they only hear negative or they start thinking bad about artists or ministers or people writing songs or literally just doing their best. Can they go down the wrong path? Yes. Can they fall off, you know, into sin or compromise? Yes, that can happen. But there's all, and again, we we don't want that to happen and we would celebrate that. But at the same time, let's not be so quick to split hairs and judge and look at everything under a microscope when it was just one moment. I remember I was at a I was at a Maverick City um in Washington last year, Danielle Nicole sang, or maybe it was almost two years ago now, for a Maverick City uh recording in Washington, and they had a guest artist. She's uh hip hop, she's amazing. And the girls had spent a lot of time with her behind the scenes and how much they just connected and they loved her. And so I was in the audience and I saw her come out. I thought her outfit was so cute. She's up on stage, the lights are going crazy. I knew Danielle and Nicole had had some wardrobe issues. They were so, it was so sweaty and so hot on stage, and like it wasn't what you would think. It wasn't glamorous. Same thing, they were crammed into a little room. Everybody was borrowing stuff from each other, and some bags had gotten lost from from um the airline, so they were just making do. And when the video came out, people clipped the the artist that was the guest artist of her singing, and something was wrong with her, like her skirt, or it was too short or something. But it was fine. It but the way the camera caught it, it looked different on the camera than it did in real life. And people were just coming for her and just you, the you're a Christian, and the way you were dressed, and it grieved me because I thought I was there. I know that that girl did the best she could, and her reaction and response was so sweet. She was like, I I apologize. Here's what happened. So I commented, I and I just said, I was there, you looked beautiful. You know, I hate that you're being treated this way. Thank you for such a sweet response. And it was that is people don't understand. And she was so appreciative. But I think we put these young people on these platforms, and then social media can just ferociously tear them apart. And that's when when I see that, I'm like, no, that that's that's not what happened. And we just create a narrative, and the Bible talks about bearing false witness against people. We need to be careful, right? And make sure we're building each other up. The devil would love for us to just tear each other down, but build each other up, that's where the whole that's where the Holy Spirit lives.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

And you and I both know where that line is. And I feel like encouraging people that are in the public eye, that are in the industry, that are singing, when you're young and you you catch on quick and everybody knows your name now and they're all singing your songs, but you're still young, maybe your character is not at a place to fully support your ministry and your gift. And you just you just had a high rise, a fast high rise. And those checks and balances are so important. But the body of Christ, we say it all the time, we kill our wounded, we eat our own. And it's so important. I think that's one of the reasons we wanted to do this podcast because we want to talk about those things, Martha. We're seeing our own daughters going into the industry, wanting to be in music. With that comes a lot more criticism that is in your face, judgmentalism that's available to you, picking up your phone that you and I didn't have. You know, when when we were in the 90s, if if you sang at a big concert, a journalist would have to write about your side skirt and put it in an article.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

For anybody to read it, you know, or people would talk about it, but it didn't get traction.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

And there nobody was recording it. There was nobody with a video camera recording it.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Exactly. So now there's so much scrutiny, there's so much judgmentalism, there's so much criticism. And the truth is this next generation needs to be just be equipped to carry it because that it is what it is. So being mindful of that, being mindful of your witness. Appeal to try to appeal to as many people as you can. And yeah, I understand the short skirt might not have looked so short on. In person, but on camera, it did. And the right reaction is what you're making the point of. The response was, hey, but I missed it. Yeah. I missed it. And I didn't see that. And no one caught it. And you, oh my gosh, I could see where you would say that. And it goes back to the beginning of this conversation. Is it wrong for Christians to get awards? Is it wrong for Christians to make money off their music? It's no, it is not. No, it is not. It is that is an absolute, absolutely not. But what is wrong is that we who are getting the awards, we who are on the platforms, we who are making the money, we who are benefit are blessed and receive great benefit from people buying our music, listening to our music, being blessed by our music. We are responsible. We are obligated. We have a burden on us to give God all the glory. We get the privilege to build the kingdom. And we need to manage your own.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

And managing it sometimes means honoring it financially. And we see the Grammys and we see the Tonys and the Oscars and all these things. They spend a lot of money to promote the world's kingdom and the way they do things. They we don't realize that. And we want somebody to just make it all happen for us. Why would we not want godly shows that that represent, you know, music? And I I I heard uh recent or something that's embarrassing.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Why would you want it to look bad? Like we we why does Christian stuff have to be bad?

SPEAKER_01 23:35

It's just and we've criticized movie makers and filmmakers over the years for making Christian stuff so goofy and lame. And now that it's being done with more excellence and more money behind it, now we have a problem with it. I don't think that's right. We need to say, listen, just like our churches, if I if this is the church I go to, I want this to be the best church. I want to be the one, I'm gonna be the biggest giver. I want to be the one that's giving. Like we get so caught up in should I tithe? What does that have to do with anything? This is my church, this is where I eat. You know what I'm saying? Like it's not about, it's not about a law. It's about I want my church to be the best church on the block. That's my goal. I want whatever's being portrayed, whatever's being presented or represented through music about Jesus to be the best it can be. Not that we get so caught up in excellence. Again, please hear me. The distinctions are there. Um, but I'm saying, why would we, you know, we just sometimes we're just not ready to be in the world's view, but we've got to be ready because God is elevating us. I'll tell you, the the actor Frankie Muniz just came out recently, it was in Relevant Magazine, and said he found Jesus driving across country listening to Kay Love. He listened to Carrie Job's song, and then it went right into another, I don't know if it was Brandon Lake or another song, and he gave his life to Jesus listening to Christian worship. And in the last six years, he said, I go to church, I'm building my faith. Come on, God is doing something. Did you see? Did you see Ginny McCarthy today?

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Jenny McCarthy is singing and and mouthing the words to the blessing. That gives me chills. Carrie Job song into her phone for her social media page, singing, the Lord bless you, the Lord keep you. I'm gonna cry for everyone. I'm gonna cry. Singing the song on for her social media followers. And we're gonna get stuck on awards. Okay, I have a I have a I have a suggestion. Let me hear it. I think I think we should call Forrest Frank or Frank Forrest. Is it Forrest Frank? I think we should call him because we're like his mom's age. We we might be older than his mom. Put that in the world. Why would you say that? Because he's I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

I want to find out. But we could be like his older aunties, aunts, aunties, aunts, and call him and go, bro, we love your music. You're awesome. And we agree about what you said. We just want to give you another perspective. Another perspective? I think he would hey Forrest. Is it Forrest or Frank? It's Frank. Forrest or Frank.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

If we don't say his name right, he's not gonna say nothing to us.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Call us up. Give us a call. Or let us call you. What do you think? He probably knows who you are. Um and then he probably thinks I'm you.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

I don't know if any of that is true. But but but he probably doesn't know us from squat. You know, I I love that he's making such an impact. He's making an impact. I mean, don't we believe that we are in the in times that these are the last days, and that God is pouring his spirit on all flesh and sons and daughters will prophesy? How are we gonna do that? We do it through our gifts, through our songs, through the ministry God's given us. Yeah. And it's going to into the highways and the body, into the modern day Judea and Samaria's what Jesus told us to go into.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Yeah, but I but I like what you said that the awards aren't for God. God doesn't need the awards, but he doesn't mind that we honor one another.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

God's not taking my stellar up to heaven. He can't get it. Uh-uh. So it's not, it's for me. It's for the to say, job well done. Do I need it? Not necessarily. Do I receive it and thank God for the honor? Yes. Because there's an honor, you said it, Mary, there's an honor principle. The Bible says, give honor to whom honor is due. That's what this is. This is honoring you for the times you spent, the sacrifice, the hard work, how you've labored. There's nothing wrong with that. And there's nothing wrong with receiving it.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

No, no, and when we reflect back to 1977 when we were what, 12? I can't do the math. 77?

SPEAKER_01 28:01

We were born in 68. So uh 11. 10.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

We were 11.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

How old were we?

SPEAKER_00 28:07

10. Nine. Math was we can't do math, but we can sing. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

I said I was 11.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

I wonder if people remember that old um song. Is it Andrew? Is it Andre Crouch? Andrew. Oh God. Andre, take me back. Take me back, dear Lord. Is that his Andrew Andre's? Yes. Alan's here going, that's it. To the place where I first believed you. Believe you. Okay. So if you take these two girls back, we remember in 1977 sitting in that room and dad getting that award. And uh how God used it eight years ago.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

When we got the phone call that dad was not doing well, but that award was still on his his uh shelf. That's another podcast. We'll talk about that another time. But you know what? To God be all the glory for the things that He has done. But it's okay if we share the glory with one another because we're blessing each other and giving God praise for the people that are willing to write powerful songs and replace them.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

And Mary, to end this podcast, because I think this is my favorite one so far. I love this one. Our life and what we give back to God is God's glory. Everything that we receive on this earth is to be to God's glory. We're here to be loved by God and to love God, and that's it. And to worship and praise Him. So anything that I get, any gift that I receive automatically gives God the glory because my life is a reflection of His goodness. So let's let's focus on that. I think that's the most important thing.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

That's a drop the mic moment right there. Great podcast, sister. Let's keep talking.