The Inner World of Ballet: Three Dancers Talk About Art, Expression, Courage and Laughter

Ballet can look like weightless beauty, but the lived reality is a daily blend of artistry, athletic demand, nerves, and identity. We sit down with three working ballet dancers to get under the surface of what audiences don’t see: the inner world behind the roles, the discipline behind the ease, and the emotional truth that movement can carry when words fall short. 

We start with who they are as artists and how that changes over time, especially when you move from freelancing to a longer contract in a company. Their stories range from growing up in a dance family to finding ballet through a childhood love of classical art, to a life shaped by migration and the search for belonging. Along the way, we explore why theatre can feel like escapism and why it can also feel like the most honest place you’ve ever been. 

From there we go into the hard stuff: injury, pain thresholds, and the blurred line between “normal sore” and “I need to stop”. We talk stigma, access to physiotherapy and rehab, and how coming back from injury often requires emotional rehabilitation as much as physical healing. We also dig into performance anxiety and stage presence, sharing practical strategies drawn from breathwork, values-based focus, reframing thoughts, and sports psychology style mental training that helps performers stay present under pressure. 

If are interested in the performance mindset, or simply in learning how creative people manage fear and feedback, you’ll take something useful from this conversation. Subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review so more listeners can find VoiceCast.

Transcript

Why Dance Speaks So Deeply

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Welcome to this episode of Voicecast, and I'm very excited to have three wonderful people with me today, all ballet dancers. Audiences who are privileged to watch fabulous ballet see so many things expressed through the body. They see strength, beauty, everything from elegance and ease to aggression, anger, flowing shapes, angular things, spiky stuff, melodic, fiercely rhythmic. Either way, we get immersed and carried away by what we see when we see a finished performance. But I'm curious to find out more about the inner world of a dancer that we don't necessarily see. What it is to use your body as your voice. We interviewed Carolyn Rose Ramsey, the founder of Ballet Jury, and a wonderful professional former dancer herself who has this lovely ballet company she set up in Jersey in 2022. And that was in an earlier episode, which you can find. But now I want to turn to the dancers themselves who are still in the midst of their performing careers. And I'll be asking about what it means to speak to a small community through dance. But also I've got questions about that outlet of physical artistic expression and what that brings to an individual. I'm really curious about lots of aspects of performance and what we can learn from performers who are living at the cutting edge of artistry and discipline, actually. I think there's a lot we can glean that helps people perhaps who struggle with expressing themselves in life more generally, but who don't necessarily have that outlet and that voice. And of course, I'm really always fascinated by the question of what it is to be an artist and where would we be without challenging and exciting art? So I hope we're going to cover some of those things. Finally, as I often say, don't switch off if you're not an artist. A lot of the work I do is in the business world and it's around these topics. It's how to maintain presence under pressure, insights about teamwork, and thoughts about discipline and creativity on even how to manage conflict when there's tension in the team. You know, that can be something useful. So I'm gearing up for a rich conversation with three fabulous dancers, and I haven't checked how to pronounce everybody's name, so I'm gonna just go through it and I'm gonna ask them to correct me. So Roman Ho Zambilati.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Yes. My last name is a bit complicated. It's a baladi, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Thank you very much, Roman. Leila Bruce. Yes. Yeah, I've got that nailed it. And Hombrinoyeux, who has been with the Valet Cherry since it was founded, actually. And then I've seen her dance for many years. This is VoiceCast with Nikki Kennedy. Exploring voice in every sense, the sound you make, the story you tell, and the presence you bring. I'm Nikki Kennedy, your host, a classical singer, vocal health and rehabilitation specialist, and an executive coach. And my work is about helping people transform, find new directions, get unstuck, and express themselves in ways that feel authentic and true. Together we'll look at how your voice and your presence can shape change in work, in life, and in yourself.

Finding Identity Through Movement

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Stunned silence.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

I can try something now. I think I well, I'm quite new into the prof into the profession. I started with the company in November of 2024, and that this is my first time working in the professional environment. So I'm very curious still as to what can be done and what's possible and how to navigate myself in different spaces. Um I'm very curious and eager, I guess. Yeah. And I'm also the sort of person who struggles a lot with without moving. So I really have a lot of reliance on just being able to move my body every day and to um get out a lot of pent-up energy or um emotions that I have through movement.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

Oh well, that's fantastic, and that's a very rich vein. I think we'll be coming back to that uh in this conversation. So there's something there about openness, curiosity, the novelty of the profession, uh and and what it might be able to deliver, what it might be able to bring for you and for others, I guess. What about you, Audleneen? Have you got some thoughts about how to describe yourself?

SPEAKER_05 5:15

Yeah, I I mean, I think weirdly enough, just jumping off what Roman said, is I think I can start to see what I can like about myself, like what I would be as an artist, because I've now been three years in the company and it's helped me to see some things about myself as a dancer that I never saw before. Um, this is my first actual long-term contract. I was always a freelancer before. So I think maybe that's why I would say malleable, I can really adapt to any style. And it's not something that I first saw, but it's something that I've been told quite a lot. So I think that that would probably be something like that would describe me. Maybe also um the emotional, very, very emotional in general. Um but that's also one of the reasons why I dance. Although I myself often forget it, it's one of the reasons why I I I decided to dance because I wanted to feel and to allow myself to feel my emotions and uh the emotions of others to the extent. And I mean, you we haven't touched that question yet, but why why we decided to dance. And I just thought that sometimes, you know, the audience forgets or doesn't allow, because they're not artists, they don't allow themselves to feel so much. Whereas when they come to see a show, you can give them that. You can allow them to see within their own privacy a show in the dark and be like, I recognize that feeling, that's also mine. That performer is showing it to me, is feeling it for me, but I also feel it. And I think that that's just that's something about me that I like to that I would think describes me as well, the emotional side of things.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

That's amazing, that's so powerful. I think that you've gone straight in with that um that sense of you needing to be in touch with your own emotions and to have an outlet for them and to express them, but also how that connects with the emotions of others who may not have that available to them. And and that's really what happens in the I love the way you describe the dark theatre there. So there was something in what you said there about how being involved in a company over more time rather than just the freelance blotting around has showed you a bit of a mirror in some ways.

SPEAKER_05 7:45

And yeah, I think it's also when you are in the freelance world, and for me it was there was a lot of struggles in it, maybe because of my life before not being in a stable place um necessarily. Uh I mean in within a country, I mean. Um You've moved around a lot. Yeah. Then it means that within the freelancing world, you enjoy the art but you also struggle with the unemployment. And you just you don't really have a right, which is maybe why I'm malleable. You don't have a right to decide what kind of dancer you are. You just run behind the job and trying to find one. So you try to do everything, you know. You suddenly they're like, Oh, can you sing? No, but I'll try. Yeah. Can you wear point shoes? Well, I haven't trained for six months in my point shoes, but I'll wear them. Have you done floor work? Well, yeah, I've been doing a lot of that right now, and it's just constantly that.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

This I really recognised from my own job uh as a as a singer because I was always a freelancer, and and while I might have chosen this repertoire to sing, I was booked to sing that repertoire. So you know, you ended up always doing what you you're opportunistic all the time. So there's something I suppose about being stable in a company which gives you the opportunity maybe to explore, to ask to explore. You may not always be able to, but to ask to explore specific things. I'll come back to that. But let's hear from you, Leila. What about you?

SPEAKER_04 9:13

To be honest, I think I am still figuring it out because it still is very, very early on, which I love so much. So every like everything I get given in this job or you know, in my past training and and everything, um I kind of discover a new part within that, like within myself. And um over the years I've realized that I think I can be quite a theatrical dancer, and I really, really enjoy letting that part of me out because it doesn't really come with like new people and stuff, it has to really like take its time, even like in my personal life as well. It takes a long time for me to be very comfortable with people. So when I do roles that I'm allowed to just go crazy, or like I really enjoy obviously being myself, but becoming a completely different person, and I think yeah, it always has that personal touch, but I actually just quite like separating myself completely and becoming a whole different character, and it really helps me to uh use my body more in a way when I have a story behind it or a or a reason to dance.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

I'd really, really be curious to hear. I mean, you've you're

What First Pulled Them In

SPEAKER_02 10:35

already touching on it, but what actually did pull you into ballet in the first place? Let's start with you, Lenny, because you're kind of on the on the on the microphone at the moment.

SPEAKER_04 10:46

So To be honest, I didn't really have choice when I was younger because my whole family are dancers. So I obviously now it is my choice because I chose to like fall in love with it as I got older. But I was born into the world. I was even from a like as long as far back as I can remember, I've just been spending my life in theaters and around my parents creating work and my grandparents creating work, and then my brother went off to school, it's a ballet school, and I was like, I want to do that. And then gradually over the years, like it's just it has been my world, and I've you know, I've always, always loved it. And then when I got to an age where I was like properly thinking about a career and stuff, then I started to look more into contemporary dance, where like my main background is, and my family do a lot of dance theatre, so I think that's where the character comes from as well. So yeah, that's that's how it happened for me. It was very, very natural because it is in my blood.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

So it's the DNA. Yeah. You were immersed. Yeah. So in a way, it would have been a kind uh almost an easy choice to make, but that doesn't make it an easy path.

SPEAKER_04 12:00

No, and it was the difficult decision was trying to figure out whether this was it was because I am part of this family, or it actually brings me joy. And I had to really sometimes when it was really, really tough, I had to take a step back and go, is just is this what like I think I need?

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:24

Or, you know, because there was never, never any pressure from my parents or my family because they knew how hard it was. They almost were like, the minute that you don't love this anymore, don't do it, you know, because it's a very, very hard profession to get into if you don't love it. Yeah and it tears you apart, you know?

SPEAKER_02 12:40

This is what we say to my son, who is currently sleeping upstairs, like having just got back from a tour he's been on with his choir in America, and he, you know, he is a musician through and through. He's been immersed since he was a boy, and uh it's all he can think about doing, really. And we're always saying, you know, yes, do it, but it is tough. Tough, tough, tough. And it's not getting any easier, I don't think. Yeah, I think it was easier when I entered the profession. Let's come to you, Raymond. What drew you into dance?

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Uh in the nutcracker in Canada, they actually have a very realistic looking horse in the barn scene, and I really loved horses at a young age, so I told my mum that I really want to be the horse in the nutcracker. And uh after that, she put me into ballet classes and just kind of taken me away from there.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

She basically wanted to be a horse in the city.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Essentially, yes, and I've ended up being here. Um But no, I think my mum also she has a very deep appreciation for classical art in general, whether that's music or um ballet, she really appreciates the form and the simplicity and the refinement of it and the amount of discipline it takes. And she really wanted that all of us, my siblings and I, to experience that and to be immersed in it in some way. And I didn't fully understand it when I was younger when I was in the training. I was a bit oblivious to it. But then I, as I got older and I had different teachers who passed down that information and that knowledge, it really struck me how powerful it can be to have something so um simple and elegant, but just beautiful and emotional at the same time, you know. Um so I think that's what's gotten me into it and what's carried me through.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

And and you're originally from Canada, aren't you? I haven't really covered that. So you I mean, just quick quickly around the room. So um you're from Canada. Um you also from Canada, no, you're from No, I'm French, but I wasn't raised there, but I'm French. Yes. So you've then I've lived all around the place. Well, so tell me about your your life and what drew you into dance, and oh you've spoken a bit already about it, but there's more, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_05 14:49

I so for me it was I mean, my my mom always danced a lot, but similar to what Leila was saying earlier, I never felt the pressure of having to dance because my mum liked it. I always had it a bit as an extracurricular activity. I did a lot of tennis swimming on the side, and I was living in Argentina at that time. I was so teenager, and I did a lot of dancing. And then when I was around 15, um, my dance teacher in a very small private school, I never went to the conservatoire. Um sorry, they're making my my colleagues are laughing because I used to translate the word conservatory, and I learned that you don't do that in the UK, you say conservatoire. Um so I never went to superior dance school until I was 18, so as a university training. But I was in um a normal school, and she just told me, she asked me when I was around 15 if I wanted to start thinking of dance as my career or as a potential for it. And I my thought wasn't I don't like it, my thought was I'm not good enough for it. I never thought I would ever be good enough to become professional. And I remember having a period of really thinking, and then there was I know exactly when the choice was, as I it was in Buenos Aires, and we went to see Akram Khan, um, who's a choreographer, English with uh Indian roots, and he did a piece which was called Zero Degrees with C. D. Darby Sharkway. And it was all based on migration and roots, racism, a lot of things, but I remember crying for the first time. Not crying, seeing other people cry and feeling stunned by the show because it was the first time I was feeling more than what I had ever felt watching a performance,

Belonging, Migration, And Meaning

SPEAKER_05 16:50

and I just turned around and I said to my mom, I want to do the same to people in the future. I want them to experience that, and that was the choice.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

So that's really I mean, that is very close to what you were describing earlier, this connection with emotional uh an emotional channel really with the audience, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 17:09

Yeah, I think Akram Khan is weird, has always come back in specific moments of my life, and I think he touches a lot on them on the subject of migration, belonging, and as an expat and feeling a little bit foreign all my life wherever I go, because of that, because of the situation of always being the foreigner. Maybe I felt like I belonged for the first time. I belonged in recognizing the feeling. So if I recognized it, maybe I don't know, I'm just analyzing this, but it made sense, you know. You're because a little bit like what Layla was saying, there is an escapism in in the arts because we're allowed to be someone we aren't necessarily, so we play roles, but those roles are also us.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Yes. I understand what you're saying. So there's a there's a sense of this escapism, but this deep truth in in in you know, we've got fantasy and truth living very, very rubbing shoulders really closely with great art, I think, and with and for an artist, you know, you can't just step out of yourself to be another person. So there's a you were describing Layla, that thing about wanting to kind of almost separate, but but in a sense, there's always going to be that that elastic band that pulls you a part of you with the character, right?

SPEAKER_05 18:35

And it's the beauty of it because even though there is a lot of theatre in it, like Layla was saying, it's still it's still Leila performing, it's her version of that character, and that's beautiful because that's why we've got so many diverse dancers.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

At this point in the podcast, we took a short break and had

When Team Conflict Becomes Choreography

SPEAKER_02 18:55

quite a rich discussion in the break, which was not unfortunately captured in the recording, but is worth just bringing some attention to at this point. We had a really lovely conversation about difficulty and conflict and working in a team, and I thought it was such an interesting uh area of discussion. So perhaps that's one for a future episode. But what came out of it was really something around the clash really of being true to yourself, finding a way to be an honest dancer whilst at the same time executing the vision of the choreographer, which is really what your job is, and how there are times when that is easy and there are times when it is hard and difficult, and it's something I recall actually from my own working in the field of opera. There were times when your conductor and your stage director and you would all be in beautiful alignment and it was so great, but other times when there would be clash uh or you wouldn't understand what they were trying to get to, and you couldn't produce it, and it would be frustrating and hard. So we talked about some of those things in this context of ballet, and I loved how all three dancers talked about the value of clash and the learning that can come from it, the development that can come from it. There was a recollection of one particular choreographer who came to work with Ballet Jerry, who almost enjoyed creating conflict, and at one point during the project had actually provoked some conflict almost intentionally, and later on said to the dancers, you know, the choreography began long before we started. When you all started to argue, I was able to observe. She had been able to observe their interactions, the way they communicated, and to start to work with that in the choreography. And Ormblin talked about this particular choreographer and this particular project and said what it really led to, this kind of leaning into that conflict, noticing it, observing it, and then working with it, it led to some really great problem solving in the moment on stage. But it also created some tensions, but it created new friendships, it it shifted things, it moved things around, and ultimately was a really fascinating experiment. So I thought that was very interesting. In the rest of the podcast, we have further discussions, particularly around a couple of areas that are very close to my interests as a practitioner. So the first one is around injury and how dancers might deal with injury, both physical and mental injury, actually, difficulties uh with the psychological side of performance. And we talk a lot about strategies that dancers might use to help them prepare to be. Truly present on stage and to be able to perform at their very very best and manage nerves in really positive ways. So it's a really good conversation. I hope you enjoy it.

Injury, Stigma, And Acceptance

SPEAKER_02 22:26

So I work a lot with singers who are dealing with injury or coming back from injury, and I wondered about how, as dancers, you cope with uh injury. We've talked a little bit about also audition processes, and I'm thinking about uh rejection, comparison, self-doubt, all of those things, not just physical injury, but those moments where we we really struggle. Um but thinking about physical injury, I know that a lot of singers are still quite secretive about when they have uh vocal injury because they're worried about there's a bit of stigma around it. When you think, you know, actually uh all athletes have injury and it's a normal thing. And we've spent a lot of time over these last years in the vocal health world trying to kind of encourage people to be open about when they've had difficulties with their voice. It doesn't mean that it was your fault that you did something wrong or that you have a poor technique. It can mean that, but it doesn't necessarily. So I'm wondering what that territory is like for you in the dance world and what the support is like for you in the dance world. Are there parallels I'm looking for?

SPEAKER_01 23:39

I just recently had uh not um an overly severe injury, but I sprained my ankle about a month ago when I had to take a week off of work, and that was the first time I've had to do something like that in years, and I was really taken aback by how much it affected me. And it really put it into my mind how dependent I am um on my job and how much I actually love my work, you know, and how much I get out of it. I think there are some parts of an injury that you can't avoid where you do just have to wait it out.

SPEAKER_03 24:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

But I think there's a lot of peace that you can find when you accept that fact where you do actually just need to come to terms with the fact that your body isn't at 100%. And once you acknowledge that, then you think about what the best way of moving forward is, and that's when I have my injury, a lot of like oh, that's the dog.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

Should we open the door and let him in? But do carry on. We we're very informal on this podcast then.

SPEAKER_03 24:42

The podcast dog.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

The podcast dog is feeling left out. Come on, in dogs, you said, yeah, just we'll be fun. Yeah, come on, can you yeah? So the podcast dog has arrived, and we're on it.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

Yeah, and it was just um it was a moment where I realized that there is a dependence that I have. I don't know how useful it is and how productive it actually is in my life and in my work. And a lot of my focus then was more of an emotional rehabilitation, too, in a way where I thought of how I could approach my work coming back from a more um full place and in a place where I was working because I actually wanted to, not because I necessarily needed to. You know, and it was that was nice to be able to appreciate the space in that way. And I think that's for me what the most important thing you can do when you have an injury is to take that time to really um not question, but to um reevaluate how you're approaching your practice in a way.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Because in a way, I I mean I find this again, what for anyone who um has a job that they love, there's a a a a degree of identity that comes with, you know, I I remember when it was became difficult for me to say I'm a singer. You know, we do have an identity around it, and it can be hard to let that go.

SPEAKER_04 26:03

Personally, I've been very, very lucky, touch wood. Um, but I've had like small things and I like dealing with the the load of point work has brought a lot of pain to my body recently, and it's been a big challenge on telling myself when to stop, and telling myself, like, this is just a bit of pain that I can just work through, and then I can just heal in the evenings, I can like treat my blisters or like my toenails coming off, you know, like just just gross things that I'm like, this is not a big deal, but then I'm like, actually, it might be a big deal, and maybe I do need to just like because the choreographer doesn't know how much pain you're actually in, you know, um, until you like step up and s say something, but it's so difficult because also like the way we trained as well, we've been taught to go through a certain amount of painless dancers, yeah, and we're always sore right now. Like my back and my ribs are really, really sore from this duet we've been doing. And you just kind of you have a massage, you carry on, and it's all good, but there's that line, and it's so blurry sometimes of telling yourself, no, you're actually not okay. You need to stop and rest, you need to be honest with yourself rather than being like just push through this, you'll be fine, you'll get stronger.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

Yeah, it's a lot about recognition and self-knowledge and putting some boundaries around it with experience. Is that where we are? Like just that thing of you know, it I can take myself to this point, um, I need to expect a bit of that. Uh uh, but but there is a point at which it's probably over the limit of what I should have to expect or what I should expect of myself. Is that what you're and so there's a a a lot about experience, I should think, in that.

SPEAKER_05 27:53

That that is something I still as well struggle with, and and I think it's important within because what Leila is saying and about the knowing when to stop is also when it's also time to recognize dance as a sport because it's always been separated. It's either some people think it's a sport, other people think it's art, but they're combined, and that's the issue that a lot of times I hear about the dancing is oh, but you just dance all day. And sometimes I get a slap in the face from my brother who's who's an osteopath, and sometimes I text him in a panic, and I'm like, what should I do? I have this, and it's like I'm getting you you walk and dance all day. You're gonna have issues, like it's like with your feet, with your knees, with your hips, with your shoulders. You have to just accept it, and he's like, and stop. And I'm like, No, I'm not gonna stop. And I think that that's something that um maybe again on this is more personal. I've been lucky, I've my I haven't been injured physically, my injuries are different, but I I know that there are there are very big differences in differences in getting injured as a freelancer, getting injured as a full-time dancer, and getting injured in different countries, getting so all of those things, although they sound really petty, they're actually really important because I mean I sometimes I guess it's something that I still struggle to to vocalize, but like the experiences that I gained in working my body, like for example, this week I had to teach and I was sharing some things, and I know that there are things that I learned because I didn't have access to physiotherapy or osteopathy, so I was in pain and I was like, okay, well, I can't do this, so how am I gonna find a way to do the same thing but differently? And I guess it's things that we don't necessarily have time to learn or that we're not often taught.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:05

Um gradually, if you are in a big company, you know, if we start naming big names, if you're in the Royal Opera House, if you're in the Paris Opera, you have access to constant physiotherapy, to constant um rehab. Yeah. Whereas in other companies we may not were lucky here. Yeah, we've got to be in the Ballet de Jerry, we were lucky. We've been having a lot of support, and um Carolyn is constantly trying to find new ways for us to get there. Um but I think Leila really said it the biggest issue is ourselves, saying no. And I will not go through this today.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

Yeah, and there's something about you know pain and discomfort, and in order to, you know, people, the audiences see just I bet

Pain Boundaries And Real Support

SPEAKER_02 30:55

I mean I'm sure you get lots of comments about it being effortless and beautiful and elegant and all the rest of it, and they they don't see that pain because you don't, you just you make it, you do make it look uh so effortless, you you know, so light. But of course, it it is um it is it must be very hard on the body. And I think in certain sports we see that things like cricket, you know, and the a bowler who's been bowling for years, there's a huge pressure on the body and some of the tennis players as well as they get older, you know, the the body starts to to let them know. So yeah. Well, I have enormous respect for that for that uh call you have to make, you know, that judgment call.

SPEAKER_05 31:37

I think it's sorry, you want to say I think art has evolved throughout the years, and when we look at the dance like several years ago, half of the dancers weren't able to do what dancers do today. Yeah. Um it's becoming more and more sportive extremes almost. Yeah. Where that's why it's also hard to like not lose focus of what art really is about, that it's not an extreme, it's what's the source of it, you know. Um but all those extremes also demand like a body that's high functioning and that's more like an athlete.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

That kind of leads me on to a conversation about confidence uh and and communication and strategy and learning around that. I think it's really unusual for anybody to go through an entire performance career without having periods of time when it's difficult to do it, and that's a very normal thing, but it can be a very difficult thing to deal with. I know I've had phases in my life where I've struggled. So, what are the strategies and how do you prepare your mind and body for a performance? Again, going back to my business clients, you know, there's it often strikes me how people are very afraid, for example, of public speaking or presenting. And quite often, again, there's no training there, there's no background, there's no there's no ritual, there's no preparation, there's no rehearsal period, there's none, there's none of that vocabulary that as artists we developed for ourselves over many, many years. So, do you have anything you can share about your preparation to perform and and and what those rituals look like for you?

SPEAKER_04 33:27

It's not something that can actually be taught. I think it always comes with experience. And I've gone through so many different wavelengths of anxiety before performances, you know. Like I went through a phase of blanking on stage in every performance, and it was so terrifying because I was like, Am I ever gonna be able to perform without for you know not forgetting the steps? Um, but the more I performed, the more people gave me like little snippets of advice that I'm like, oh, that could work for me. Ah, so you've just packaged together as a series. And I think I'm still going with it. Yeah. But I remember like um I was performing one of my father's pieces for the first time, which was I put quite a lot of pressure on myself because it was very important to me. And my mum gave me a little stone, and I'm not really like that. I'm not a very like crystal person, but she was like, because it was from her, I've always kept that on me since. And it's always just been like a comfort of just like she said it's like confidence and power, and that's what I like to, no matter what I'm doing, like performance-wise, the confidence and like the power and like the fierceness gives me a good energy. And she's always she's always told me to take four deep breaths before because you cannot go on stage with all the adrenaline rushing through you, not being able to breathe. Yeah. So that's two things that I really, really almost have to do. I used to have to solve a Rubik's Cube three times in order to go on stage.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

Some of you don't have the Rubik's Cube. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 35:10

And then there was one time I didn't have it, and I was like, I'm gonna have to survive this. So now I got rid of that hubby. I was like, that doesn't work.

SPEAKER_02 35:17

Stupid, isn't it? It's the love. And then you realize I can't wear one of your pants I've left the line. Yeah, no. But so I'm I'm really I'm kind of translating in my mind the the strategies I use around performance anxiety for both for performers but also for people in in um high-stakes environments, business, and so on. There is one that is around values, and you described three values there, you know, confidence, fierceness, and what was the other one?

SPEAKER_03 35:45

Power.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

Like power, yeah. Confidence, power, and fierceness. And so encapsulated in that was that kind of value set, if you like, yeah, that you're almost amplifying that voice ahead of the voice that says, maybe I'm not sure what I'm gonna be able to do it. And so you've got that voice going on in the left hand side, but in the right hand side, you're almost overwhelming

Pre-Show Rituals And Managing Anxiety

SPEAKER_02 36:05

that voice with this confidence, power, and fierceness voice, which is coming back to the values of what you want to do. Yeah, that's a really great strategy.

SPEAKER_04 36:13

And I think you could lose, I could lose that stone any day, but as long as I know that feeling that it gives me, it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

And you've got those three words, you've got those values, you know, you can just say those words. And I think the breath thing also is really interesting to me because, of course, I I do a lot of breath work with Google, and it's that you know, as you exhale, your heart rate is slowing, and as you inhale, your heart rate is speeding up. So long exhalations regulate the nervous system, and it does help because you know, and again, I think the strategies having those strategies are really important. When I came and performed with you all, you were not in the companies, but you were on being um, it was a couple of years ago at the um ballet at the Domain Devo Opera Festival, and it was so lovely because I came into the warm-up tent, it was a tent, and the whole rhythm of the hour and a half before the performance was exactly as it would be for me before any performance. There was this, it was very quiet when I arrived. Everyone was in their own thing, everyone was doing their own preparation, and then gradually, as the performance got nearer, people started to move, and then this energy started, and then you know, you felt this like a kind of collective ritual that happens, and then in the kind of 15 minutes or so, 20 minutes before the performance, everyone was just completely normal and chatting and ready to go. And it was just like coming home for me. What about you two? Have you got strategies that you can share?

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Yeah, I I I I as Layla said, it's um something that you pick up with experience. I'm still learning as I go on, but I something that's helped me a lot is I have a bit more of an obsessive and anxious personality at times, and especially when it comes to performances for pieces that um we've rehearsed a lot for, and I have had a lot of energy and um time put into them. It's very easy for my mind to be in those to think of that rather than to think of where I am in that moment where she's um about to perform, you know, and I think it's I've really been a lot more deliberate about sifting through what thoughts are really useful in that moment to me, you know, and how much energy I dedicate to what's going on in my brain in a way.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

This is really, really valuable stuff, actually. It's how we respond to the thoughts, isn't it? Yeah, it's we have this um, I call it radio Nikki, you know, going on, and actually there's video Nikki as well. And and I've I've learned uh quite a lot about how to sort of um just notice those thoughts, but let them pass by and come back to the present moment and to really take ownership over what goes on in your own mind, because at the end of the day, you're the only one who can really do anything about it in a way, and making sure that you understand that you have the power to control how you perceive a situation.

SPEAKER_03 39:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

So if you perceive a situation as scary, you're gonna be scared, you know. It's that sort of a that sort of a thing. And obviously, there are times when you can't help it so much. But I think really putting your energy into those thoughts that will give you good feelings and make you feel more comfortable as always, letting to feel better in a way.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

There's a sort of reframing strategy there. It's like I'm gonna I'm I'm seeing it like this. Maybe if I look at it from a different angle, I can see it differently.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

Definitely. And in the moments where I've had trouble performing, it's when my mind is elsewhere, you know? Yes. When my mind isn't actually focusing on what I'm doing, it's focusing on and how I'm being watched or how I am doing, or you know, when my mind is more outwardly focused rather than present in what I am um performing. And it's something that's very tricky to keep your mind so disciplined in that it's always within yourself, but it's it's a practice that I'm trying to get better than.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Yeah, I think it's a lifetime practice. I mean, it's it's um, it's a it's what I suppose we hear people talk about being in the zone, but I think it is it's being truly present in this moment rather than uh projecting into the future or past worries, and it's just living right there and then. What about you? Have you got any good strategies?

SPEAKER_05 40:17

Uh well at the moment I'm struggling with that a lot. Uh so I'm still dealing. It's something that's been an issue for me. I love being on stage. So it's very controversial because stage is actually the reason why I also chose this profession, not the studio. I mean, I love the studio, but I prefer stage. Um I just feel more alive there. Um so it's controversial because it's one of the things that I get the most anxious about. Yeah. But it's one of the moments I love the most. And I'm in therapy and I'm dealing with how to get there with a lot of things. But when I was listening to you know, to Leila and to Roman, it's also one of the things that my therapist always says is you love what you do. And that's the first thing people will see. So you love dancing, and even if you're scared, just remember that you love doing it. So it's about f like remembering how you feel rather than again going into your head. And I know that someone who's scared of doing public speaking, for example, and it's not necessarily their job. Their job is something else they're but they are talking about their passion or about something that they love, and that's maybe something to remember.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

I think this comes back to Layla's uh point with the the the she had uh I mean you couldn't see her on the podcast, but she had a kind of an imaginary stone in her hand as she spoke. And this imaginary stone, which is a real stone somewhere else, but it's not with us now, was representing these values to come back to all the time. They're ways to anchor yourself in that present moment and remember, yeah. And thank you for speaking so very candidly about that because it's it's again it's something that people sometimes feel they can't talk about, but actually, you know, sharing uh the the struggle. It is normal uh to struggle. Um, as I say, I I think any performer is going to have periods of time when this comes up. And there was a great book written way back in, you know, many years ago, 20, 30 years ago, which is called Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. And it's all about how sometimes we find those fear feelings really uncomfortable and really difficult to deal with. Uh, but knowing that they are kind of normal and natural, that we can have to step into that discomfort anyway, can be helpful. And then that returning to the values proposition is really, you know, I feel fear, I feel really uncomfortable. But why am I doing this? Because I love it, you know.

SPEAKER_05 42:56

And it's something also that's maybe it's also nice to I don't know if it's it's not nice, but it's something because I talk about it a lot where it it's like an injury. You know, so when you go through the process of an injury, even if it's in your brain, even if it's mental, you deny it as much as you deny the I'm not okay, I have to stop. But once you accept it, it's okay, like no, I still feel the pain, no, I still don't have the confidence. And until you're stuck on that thought and that fear, and you never do that small step, you know, even if the first step is until you actually stop freezing when you're about to talk, for example, is to just put your foot on that stage behind the mic. That's one step. Yeah. Tomorrow you'll do another one, but the fact that you actually can do that is a recovery, it's a rehab.

SPEAKER_03 43:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:48

And so sometimes even if if we're so judgmental about those fears and that lack of confidence, it is a huge injury. Yeah. It's an injury not to be able to be confident.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 44:01

Because it does refrain you from doing a lot of things. And I think sometimes it's also like what your Roman was saying, or what you were saying. It's just changing the perspective.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

Yeah, reframing and and having that kind of having I I I think of there being almost a pack of like a suitcase full of skills. And I think actually between you, you've you've brought up many of them. You know, there's the being present in the present moment, and I suppose developing that muscle, that brain muscle. I mean, I use a meditation practice for that very purpose to just work on that. It's a muscle that needs to be trained, I think. And then there's the values piece, you know, why am I doing this? What do I want to come back to? But I think there's another thing around how you allow those thoughts to come and go and just not kind of get too entangled with them. But there's so many things, and you've you've all bought them. So I hope lots of people are listening who can be self-compassionate. I think that's another thing, isn't it? About having a bit of kindness for yourself in these moments of anxiety or dread that we feel. As a dancer, you're striving always for something very perfect, and I think as a classical musician, that that's quite similar. There's a lot of perfectionism, and there's probably a lot of feedback you have to take, and then there's a lot of self-criticism. I wondered about how

Presence, Perfectionism, And Feedback

SPEAKER_02 45:25

you manage that feedback. Do you find it easy to take it and then learn from it? Because it's feedback about your body, isn't it? It's very close, like a singer, it's very close when somebody feeds back about your voice. It's hard.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

I think there's a degree of it being difficult, definitely. I think for me there's an idea in my head where it's not so much you're striving to be perfect, but you're just striving. The point of it is to strive for perfection, not to necessarily be perfect already. And no matter what, you know, you will never actually achieve that perfect ideal, but it's that pursuit of it that I think is so special. Yeah. And being able to realize that, but then still go on is something very important, I think.

SPEAKER_02 46:08

Well, there's some people who walk on a stage and or walk into a room, the attention goes to them. What is that, and how does that work? Can that be taught?

SPEAKER_04 46:16

Can that be No, no, no, I think it comes from your soul, you know. I was gonna say it's the aura. Yeah, it's your aura. And I love it when people mention like the the last performance we did uh in underscore. I had this part in the last piece, and people kept coming up to me and going, Your presence just was so strong. And I didn't realise it's a beautiful compliment. And and then I was like, Wow, like that's amazing that you saw that because I felt it, obviously. I like always feel it on stage, and I like I feel it in like my eyes and like the character I am and like how I am with like with my partner and everything, and I'm like, I'm so happy that they saw it. Yeah, you know. So yeah, I don't think it's something that can be it's not like you're there in the studio, like, right, we're gonna talk about aura today. Like it's not it's something that that you have as an artist, you know.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

I think some of the magic might lie in being very comfortable in your own skin in a way.

SPEAKER_02 47:26

And but I yeah, again, it's not something that's really teachable because I think it's also very personal to each person what gives them that confidence to walk into a room and just be themselves, and regardless of what's really the authenticity is being being so just being true to yourself and and and having the confidence to be that.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

I think the second that you think of an external lie kind of loses its intrigue in a way.

SPEAKER_02 47:53

I'm gonna come to some lighter thoughts here. I'd I'd like to know out of the three of you, well actually out of the whole company, they're not here to defend themselves, let's go for it.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 48:01

Who's who's the earliest and who's latest to the rehearsals?

SPEAKER_01 48:04

Who's oh the rehearsals I'm not but the earliest is tabby, yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 48:10

Eight o'clock in the morning?

SPEAKER_04 48:12

They're all eight a.m. They go to the gym, then they go and do like a Pilates before. So they're all over it. Yeah. Tabby, okay, and then who's late?

SPEAKER_00 48:22

I arrived at class very um yeah. Strategically.

SPEAKER_04 48:29

You're never late.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

No.

SPEAKER_04 48:30

And Stan is also right at the limit as well. But Stan's very tall.

SPEAKER_02 48:35

My tennis lessons I arrived just when they finished the ring warm-up bit. And who's who's um who's gonna forget things? Who who forgets their stuff? Who needs looking down?

SPEAKER_04 48:47

What like their things? Yeah. Stan. Stan.

SPEAKER_05 48:51

Have you seen my headphones? Can you tell Leela to take my jumper, please?

SPEAKER_04 48:58

I live with him and he always forgets his keys. You know, stuff like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:02

There's always one. And uh so Stan, we've got you, we've got you. Uh and who's funniest backstage? Who's who's or in rehearsals? Who's the funny one? Who makes you laugh?

SPEAKER_04 49:12

Everyone has a different sense of humour. Roman's very good at dad jokes. That's always light and breezy. Harry is so quick, so witty, so dry. Very sassy. So is Donnie actually. Donnie's a little bit. Yeah, being surprising about it.

SPEAKER_05 49:31

Yeah, because like Donnie, you don't know when it's gonna happen. Yeah. Really depending on it. And then it shooks you. And then you're like, oh wow, that was funny. That was a really good one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:39

Um, yeah. Uh I don't know. So everyone's quite funny in their own little way.

SPEAKER_05 49:45

I'll make people laugh, but for just because I'm I'm clumsy. Oh, so you're clumsy one. I'm the clumsy, yeah. Something's happening and I start giggling on my own, and then it just makes everyone laugh.

SPEAKER_04 49:54

But put me and Harry together and Yeah, ha Harry's great company to have in the studio. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:01

We were saying because at the moment, so um Harry just came back in the studio with us. He's been very injured. Um, and it's amazing to have him back in the studio. Um, but we were missing all of the comments that were coming with class. Yeah. And I was just saying, it's so nice to have you back because if not, everyone's just doing their warm-up and it's it can be very boring. So you need to have a class clown every now and then. Yeah, yeah. But everyone can be a clown, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

My um my old director at school said to never underestimate the power of a good baby laugh.

SPEAKER_02 50:37

Yeah. I totally agree. I totally agree. I think it's really great, and it can diffuse all kinds of situations in the world. Yeah, yeah. I think we've got a a a lovely conversation here for people to listen to. I'd just like to finish it by asking each of you if there was

Backstage Banter And Company Life

SPEAKER_02 50:55

one thing that you could change to make the ballet and dance world a better place for the performers in it. What would it be?

SPEAKER_01 51:05

I think ego gets in the way of a lot of artistic practices. I think it's a real train to see that. Um, so that I think dropping the ego once you walk into a room is very, very important. And I'd love to see that happen.

SPEAKER_02 51:19

So a bit more training around dropping the ego, we'd love to see that.

SPEAKER_04 51:22

It also works both ways, I think. Like dropping the ego if you're a bit too cocky, you know, or raising the confidence.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

So something around yeah, allowing people to really be confident and and and encouraging them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:38

I think it's because at the end of the day, both of these like opposites, let's put it that way, it's just about being okay, you're enough. And it's something that we were because the training in dancing, I don't know how it is in in in music, in singing, or but you're always told that you can do more, that you can do better, and that you can always try, and that never be satisfied with where you are at the moment. I mean, that was me, like that was my training, even though I didn't go to it. And so you end up thinking, I mean, that's what I did, but that you aren't enough. And I think a lot of people do that. So then that's when the egos either go, I'm the best, because that's what you need to believe in order to make it through, or I'm not good enough. And I think it's just about remembering. And I think at one point as well, I don't know how it is now, but when I was training at school, I wasn't ready for the auditions. Yeah. I wasn't ready to go through that whole process of getting a no.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

Yes. So uh more resilience training around audition, that that terribly difficult rejection process.

SPEAKER_05 52:51

I think it would be interesting to have some um sports therapy in the dance training. It's it's interesting when you start listening to podcasts or even watching documentaries. For example, I was doing that a lot with tennis with Rafael Nadal, and his his psychology is so strong behind. That's why he he accepts his failures as well, and that doesn't break him.

SPEAKER_02 53:14

Wise, wise words to finish this podcast with. I think for me, that's uh I've delved a lot into sports psychology in my work with performance anxiety, and it's been incredibly helpful because there's a again, there's a a resource there that hasn't been there in the arts world in the same way, probably because we are we are under resourced compared to the sports. And I think that tennis is a great example because those champions stay there for years at the top, but that's not because they're better technically necessarily, it's all a mental game, isn't it? It's really huge.

SPEAKER_04 53:50

I just wanna um just say one thing that I would like to change, like with the dance world, is like I think it's really important for people to dance more. I think it's so good for you, and I think over the years people have lost it, you know. People used to go dancing in their spare time and stuff. And I really not even just ballet, I think people need to be more aware of

Making Dance Healthier For Performers

SPEAKER_04 54:15

how important it is in life for your body, for your soul. The way it makes me feel is amazing, and I would love for people to also experience that. I think it's really, really important, not just to go see it, because that's also really important, but I think there needs to be more attention to the whole world in general of dance.

SPEAKER_02 54:34

So, guys, out there talking to you, you need to get out and dance. You all need to get out and dance. I say the same about singing. The well-being that comes from it is it doesn't matter if you can sing well or not, it's not about that, it's about just doing it. We have a fabulous conversation, and I'm gonna thank you all three very much for for speaking from the heart and and so eloquently and so uh articulately about what you do and how you feel about it. It's uh really lovely to have you here. And the podcast dog is still alive, snoozing at my feet. He's obviously really enjoyed it too. So many, many thanks. Thank you very much. Thank you. You've been listening to VoiceCast with Nikki Kennedy. For me, voice has always been more than just sound. It's presence, connection, music, transformation. I hope this episode has offered something to carry with you into your own conversations and your own story. So drop us a line, be in touch, and until we meet again, I hope that your voice finds the space it needs to be really heard!