SPEAKER_01

Welcome back to SheCommerce, where power, women, and real talk collide in the CPG world.

SPEAKER_02

We talk about the stuff behind the Title II. The ambition, the trade-offs, the family logistics, the identity shifts, and all that invisible labor women are supposed to somehow magically make look effortless.

SPEAKER_01

This month we are focusing and celebrating working career moms in honor of Mother's Day, which is going to be celebrated soon. But we don't want to celebrate working moms in the filtered, we got it all together. Don't worry about what's happening behind the scenes. But very much focused on the balance and in a balance is beautiful kind of way.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. We're talking about the real version, the hard calls, the system gaps, the negotiations at home and at work, and what it looks like when women stop quietly adapting and start asking better questions.

SPEAKER_01

And today's guest is going to be the perfect person to help us go there.

SPEAKER_02

But before we do, before we bring her in, can we just acknowledge that there are weeks where our calendar says executive presence? And your real life says does not have a clue. And someone needs a snack immediately. I mean always with the snacks. So many freaking snacks.

SPEAKER_01

Mm-hmm. Keeps us going. Like one minute you're talking about long-term growth strategy, you know, your your next billion-dollar innovation. And the next minute you're negotiating with this miniature version of yourself about putting their clothes away and listening to you the first time and going to bed and all the all the things that come along with parenthood.

SPEAKER_02

Socks. Always goddamn socks. Bake your socks up. You left the sock. Pack your socks away. And honestly, that's why this conversation matters, right? Because working motherhood is not just a personal challenge, it's a systems challenge.

SPEAKER_01

And I, you know, too often women are told to manage it better. Instead of asking why this structure was designed so badly in the first place for women to enter the workforce, but still have all the demands of being a mom and everything else that comes along with it.

SPEAKER_02

Preach to the choir, sister. And we are going to do that shortly with our guest. But before that, we have Sam Da Jiling to spill, ladies and gentlemen. And this time, this one, I am super extra, extra excited about because one of my favorite people here at Flywheel, my other avatar, Christine Gambino, who is this legend of a brain, wonderful human being, has just been made CEO of Omni, the AI platform, at Omnica. Christine is she's just a fabulous person. She is a she's humble. She is. My CEO described Christine as a beautiful servant leader. And the humility and the openness and the engagement that you get with Christine, I mean, she is a walking blueprint of how to be a female leader, quite frankly. I mean, but that's just by my biased opinion because I love Christine.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I trust your opinion and we congratulate her on this wonderful promotion. We need more leaders, especially in the AI space, women leaders.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

All right, well, if you haven't listened, Jackie and I got into some spicy conversation in our Sparkling Sips mini episode yesterday. So for anyone who missed it, Emma Grady and the now famous three-hour parenting conversation has entered the chat. Okay. We had a whole conversation about it. And we talked about being intentional and deeply presence present with your kids. And it's really about quality over quantity. So even if you're not physically able to be with them every waking second, how do you make the most of that time together? And realistically, for full-time working moms and parents, that probably averages about three hours a day, right? Um, depending, sometimes less, depending on your work schedule, travel, kids' bedtimes, all of that.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. And honestly, we unpack this way, way deeper during our sparkling sips conversation, right? Because this topic hits such a nerve with working women.

SPEAKER_01

It does. You know, somehow women are still expected to build careers, to sometimes be the breadwinners nowadays, and do all this like they don't have children, and parent like they don't have careers. And you know, it just doesn't always work. And the chaos is real and the burnout is real.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, so true. And frankly, that is a real conversation. Not whether someone counted hours correctly. Let's look at the actual issue at hand. We cannot do it all, and no one expects the men to do. And so why do we need to?

SPEAKER_01

That's the issue, Jackie. The expectation. The expectation. It's not a fair expectation, it's not an equal expectation. And also that privilege layer where, you know, support systems, flexibility at work, childcare, because not every woman or man has access to those same resources.

SPEAKER_02

Completely. And we call book BS on the on the performative motherhood standards, right? That we're constantly, constantly measured against. We also call BS on performative motherhood standards. Women are constantly, constantly measured against.

SPEAKER_01

So hopefully, this conversation has been all over your feed this week, your socials. You've already checked out our episode, but if you haven't, definitely go listen to our sparkling sips episode after this one. We got very honest and very deep about the topic. So, with that, we're so excited to welcome our guest, Fiza Ijaz, to SheCommerce. Thank you so much, Christina.

SPEAKER_02

Fiza is a global marketing leader whose career has spanned major organizations, including Nestle, Unilever, Canagra Brands, and Deutsche Bank with leadership experience across multiple regions and markets. She brings a truly global lens to career growth, leadership, motherhood, and big, huge life pivots. Fizza, it is such a joy to have you on our little podcast. Thank you for joining.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you for that very generous intro and thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you. And we're so excited to dig into this conversation because it's especially powerful because you have lived some of the exact tensions that so many women face and that we've been talking about as part of this podcast. Whether that's advocating for better systems for mothers, navigating major relocation decisions in your career, and managing the real life complexity of a dual career household, marriage, and family. We're gonna touch on it all.

SPEAKER_02

Basically, this is going to be honest, practical, and probably one of those conversations where a lot of women feel so, so very seen.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. All right, well, let's dig in because your story has so many layers, and we know our audience is going to connect with many of them.

SPEAKER_02

So there's the career piece, the motherhood piece, the partnership piece, the relocation piece. I'm running out of fingers counting these, right, by the way. And the bigger question underneath all of this is how much of this is individual choice and how much of this is the system women are still forced to navigate.

SPEAKER_01

Alright, so chapter one. Let's start with career, motherhood, influencing change. So we spoke about this during your time at Nestle in Pakistan. You helped influence a major policy for traveling moms with young children. Can you take us back to that moment and share what inspired you to push for that change? How did you make it happen?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, that was a very pivotal moment in my career. During my time at Nestle, I had a moment that shaped how I think about inclusion at work. I had had my second child, she was only eight months old and still breastfeeding. And I was nominated to attend a global conference in Vive, Switzerland. And what should have been a very exciting career milestone became a bit of a situation where I found myself very torn. Do I opt out of this conference? Do I leave my baby behind or wean her off earlier just for a 10-day trip? And you know, until that point in time, having had my first child as well as my second, I did have this utopian idea in my head that one day, you know, I'm gonna be traveling for business. And you know, both my children, with a nanny or some caretaker, will go along if they can't stay back. But it was just a kind of a dream in my head, and I had never really voiced it. And I thought, you know, this is the time to voice it. This is the time to try if this can really become a reality. So that's what I did. I decided to go up to my manager and to HR, and we had an amazing gender champion as well at that time, and we proposed a policy, and we said if an employee, the primary caretaker, mother or dad, has a child under the age of three years and they need to travel for work for more than one night, the company would cover airfare for the child and one caregiver, whoever that caregiver may be, you can choose. And the only condition was that the accommodation would be shared, which seemed to be a fair choice. What amazes me still, as I look back at that, it was just an idea. And within a matter of weeks, not only was that policy actually pushed through, implemented, but I became the first uh benefactor of uh you know, beneficiary of that, um, of that policy. So not only did I fly to Switzerland for that conference with my eight-month baby, my sister came along as a caretaker, and she has many stories of how that trip was about diapers more than Switzerland. But I wasn't able to fully show up as um, you know, as a professional, as a growing professional at that point in time, and also as a mother. So I was almost nine to ten hours during the day uh in this very intense conference, but in the night time I was with my baby and she got what she needed from me. Um and I think if I when I look back in time, I feel like if if I had not asked for it, I would have missed out big time. It was also the year that I got promoted. Our team won the competition in that conference, so a lot of good things came out of it. And I just came back from that travel feeling so much more fulfilled than you typically would feel from a regular business trip, right? I just felt that I had just conquered the world. My baby did not have to stay back, she did not have to leave off or wean off my breastfeed, and there was hopefully no emotional scar that she was gonna grow up with that mother disappeared for any 10 days, right? At that age, it's quite crucial. So, yeah, I'm a very and person. So I said, you know, I want to go to the conference and take my baby along. And that was my kind of thought. And I really have to thank my leaders at Nestle who helped me make it happen.

SPEAKER_02

That is amazing, visit. And side sidebar, is this policy still in place at Nestle Pakistan?

SPEAKER_00

I believe it is. It has been six years that I've left. As far as I know, Nestle Pakistan has always been a very kind of um compassionate employer when it comes to um, you know, mothers. They're very uh kind of progressive when it comes to they had an on-site daycare. So they were already in that zone where I feel that it was easy, relatively easy for me to push an idea. So I I I would like to believe it's still on, but I I believe it is, yeah. It's not a global policy, by the way.

SPEAKER_02

No, no, no. But I love that, I love that phrase you came, you mentioned, I am an and person. I want this and that. Love that. And of course, if you don't ask, you don't get, right? I I just I I love that.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, absolutely. And you learned that from a couple of speeches. If you hear Steve Jobs, I heard him say this that there was never a person that when I asked them for help, that didn't didn't want to help me. So I do believe uh that's true. You have to first ask for it and then see the outcome.

SPEAKER_01

They all start as a good idea somewhere, right? But what separates is the action behind it and having the courage to advocate for it, like you did. You have to ask. What's the worst that can happen? Exactly. Yeah. Well, what advice would you give other women who are seeing something broken potentially in their workplace, or you know, it could be outside their workplace and wondering whether they should speak up and ask for a change?

SPEAKER_00

I think first is what we just said raise your hand, ask for it with the right intention, of course. And number two is sponsorship really matters. So I mentioned I first went to my line manager, then we went to the gender champion, and then HR. And I don't think this policy would have moved beyond a piece of paper to real action if it I didn't have the right sponsors at that point in time. And so that's number two. What is a gender champion? I have to ask, because I I feel like so, like I said, you know, um, yeah, Nestle was a very kind of progressive company. So they did appoint a kind of um, you know, they had within this is beyond HR, by the way. So this is a business leader. He was one of the business heads for one of the categories, but he double hat, he did double hat as gender champion. And back in the day, uh, what we were realizing as a company was that there were a lot of subconscious and unconscious biases in the workplace, where you know, leadership may, for example, assume that a certain employee, because now she is stepping into a maternity leave, she may need a certain flexibility. And while they might be kind of trying to help the employee, but sometimes flexibility means slowing down, it means the opposite of ambition. And it's it's not good to assume that everybody who's stepping into parenthood may want to slow down. Maybe they need the opposite of that. Maybe they just need a system to help them to maintain their momentum, right? So, gender being a gender champion, what it meant was that you have somebody who sits outside the HRPs who's a business leader. And by the way, it was great that this gender champion was a male, and most of the gender conversations that you know are about women in the workforce, whether it's about equitable pay, whether it's about how do we give the right maternity leave or tenures, do we need to question anything? So, I mean, it's it's interesting that you asked because for me it was a given that yeah, we have a gender champion, it was just part of the system. And he played in a uh a wonderful role. His name is Abdullah, he's still with the company. I should mention that. And that that was their role to make sure that the trainings are being done, that you know, there is no male versus female bias happening. Do we have the kind of re-equitable policies? Are we supporting the female employees? Are we supporting young women? Um, we even had women coming in from suburban rural areas who had to be acclimatized into the city life. And there's a lot that happened in factories at Nestle. Factories are largely male-dominated, but we had female employees at factories as well. So it was a larger umbrella, but policy shift also kind of fell under that.

SPEAKER_01

I'm gonna let you in on the little secret. There's still a lot of those unconscious biases happening. It's not, it's not just back in the day, it's still happening, and and we're here to break those down. So I love the idea of a gender champion, and I love that it was a male. I feel like we we need that. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

So powerful, so powerful. Let's uh let's move to part two, which is about your bold career decisions and relocation. So, you know, you made the decision to leave your role in Dubai and move to the US with your husband and family. How did you know it was the right time to make that move and what were the factors around that decision professionally and personally?

SPEAKER_00

Sure, thank you. This definitely was a difficult turning point in my life and career. But let me also start with this was not the first move that I made or my husband made or we made as a family. Back in 2019, I also relocated with a one and a half-year-old baby and a seven-year-old girl to a different city to take up my first uh to take up my role with Union. And at that point, it seemed like a mountain that I was about to climb. I was supposed to move to a different city for this amazing opportunity that I did not want to leave. And uh, but practically single momming in this new city, setting up a new house, getting new daycares, getting new house health, school admissions, and of course with the with the responsibility of managing a new business. So, one, we had done this before, be it the split family arrangement or be it the kind of how do we navigate when one person's career is asking for a certain, let's say, temporary flexibility or compromise on the personal front. I don't see it as a compromise in the long run, but I think in the short term, sometimes you have to make some, I would like to use the word adjustments and willing to kind of lean in from both ends. So we'd done that before once, and then that was still, you know, intercity, but it still required a flight. So we would only meet over weekends and not every weekend. And so, of course, I was I still think back as that as the most liberating thing I did for my career, and I'm so proud of my babies. Now they're grown up, but they coped pretty well, you know, moving along with me, and I'm so glad that my husband supported that move. But then a few, you know, like a few years later, we also moved from Pakistan to Dubai. So and that was career moves for him and for me as well. So we've done this a couple of times before. And I personally, you know, irrespective of family, have always had a vision of the kind of leader I wanted to be. And in my head, the lateral or horizontal experience of going across different countries and being able to work across different markets, understanding consumers across different cultures was something that I definitely wanted to do. So even when I did have vertical growth opportunities within my home country, I opted for lateral opportunities outside my comfort zone. So that's number one. And because that has been my mantra when this came about back in 2024, quota four, my husband had an amazing opportunity to move with his company to the US. It was a promotion, he was going to get a VP role. There are two things that happened that kind of went off in my head. One was if I was in his position when I was being offered a promotion to go to the US, would I want to take it? Hell yes, I would want to take it. Would I want to take that at the cost of not being able to see my children and my wife for maybe six months and they live like continents away on a 20, you know, requires a 22-hour flight to fly to Dubai in the US? Well, no, I would not want to pay that heavy price. But that was one part of the equation. The second part of the equation was based on what I always believed in. I wanted a global career for myself. So that's where the kind of personal selfish piece comes in. I said, you know what, what if, what if, again, the ant, what if we could keep the family together that I could uplift my career? Prior to this, I had worked in South Asia roles, Southeast Asia roles. So I have pretty much kind of interacted with Singapore, Indonesia, Vietnam, let's say India. But what was missing in in the in my kind of you know canvas is that what I'm trying to craft as a career is the developed market experience. I said, okay, I'm gonna take this leap of faith. I'm probably gonna give myself one year. I'm still gonna have a grounding back home. I will have probably the option to move back if things don't go my way in terms of my career growth. But having spent 15, 16 years in your career, I think you can give yourself some grace that you can afford a one-year sabbatical, you can afford an experiment. It is an excellent way to take stock of where you've come, appreciate what you've achieved, and then say, hey, this is a marathon, 15 years in, another 20 years to go. That's how I look at it. I'm not gonna stop working. So I have another 20 years. Also, this is perfect time for me to say intermission in the movie. And is this the next chapter? Can I do this in North America? And and let's take a bet on myself. So this is what I did. I just took a bet on myself, and I am hopefully starting a new role in June. You're the first people to know.

SPEAKER_01

As in, you know, all the community that's listening, but that is amazing, and I would bet on you too. So we're so glad you you made the decision to do that. And I love the end attitude. You know, you you can have it all, you don't have to decide on giving yourself that grace to hit pause and be really intentional and think about what you want and giving yourself some time and space to get there. Yeah. So it's a great reminder for all of us. So well deserved.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01

And I I guess a question I have, and probably running through the minds of some of our listeners now, is did you ever worry that making that move could be seen as a step back professionally, right? Even if that was the right choice for your family. That aside, I know you know something weighing on people's minds as well. If I leave, and and it used to be a big thing, uh, that companies would ask you to explain every little gap in your career, right? And interrogate you about it. Why did you do that? What made you, you know, and the reality is people don't spend 30 plus years at the same company anymore. Loyalty is not there from either side, and it doesn't even make financial economic sense, right? But I think there's still that stigma, and also you taking a move. I remember the first time you and I spoke, you were talking about this, right? Networking and and talking about taking that step back. And I and I kind of interrupted you and said, Why? Why do you need to do that? And you said, Well, I'm moving here from another country. I'm like, so that's international, that's a benefit, you know, don't put yourself out of the game before you know. Right. But I I know that's a real thing. And it was even a thing for you. Like, do I need to take a step back? So, how did you how did you think through that?

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. Was I scared every single day of the last year? Uh absolutely yes. Was I scared that I was doing something detrimental to my career? I was worried for sure. But all of that kind of worry was also the fuel to say, uh, let's take it practically. I have a one-year window and I will make it either ways, either here or or in terms of turning back if I have to, right? So, one is to assess your damage, potential damage. This is what I do in business as well. When I have to launch an innovation, I'm like, what is the risk of pre ordering packaging? How much RMP and write off do I have to look at? Is that worth taking the risk? Because I might be able to launch early. No, we do that, right? And maybe that one month of sales by pre preponing your launch. Actually overcomes the RMPM or whatever, right? Of course. So that's so that's the same thing in life. One year of maximum one year of sabbatical slash, I don't know, stagnation, which I don't by the way see as stagnation. This one year, even you know, being a freelancer or fractional has really added to me as a person, but that's how I did it. Limit limit your time. So be very practical on what you're doing, why you're doing it. Be very clear on why you're doing it, right? Um, so there was the why was clear. I definitely wanted the developed market experience. And life was giving me an opportunity. It's not easy to move otherwise, even internally, from you know, from one continent to another. And so I was like, fine, I'm getting a personal window to do that. Number one. Number two, I made it very time-bound. And number three, I'm a I'm a delusionally optimistic person. I am. I have taken leaps of faith. I have enough evidence in my own life where I have risked it and I have made it. And I've been able to look back and say, hey, I'm so glad I took that risk. And because this is not the first time I was taking that risk, I I have had a track record of taking risks. Um and I've ended up on the brighter side. So I started by creating investment banking, maybe that's where it comes from. But yes, the higher the risk, the higher the return. So my eyes are on the potential return, and I know when to stop gap the risk. I know that in my head, this is when it will start hurting me too much, and this is my plan B. So I always had a plan B that plan B is still in my hands, but now it seems like I may not have to use it.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Amazing. That is incredible. So I guess the follow-on question for this would be, Fiza, what did this decision teach you about ambition and identity and success at different seasons in your life?

SPEAKER_00

Oh yes, this year has given me so much, which is so invisible to the world, but deeply meaningful to me. To have taken this kind of a, let's say, sabbatical, flexible year, I've really had to unlearn some of those unhealthy behaviors that come from being in the corporate world for 15, 16 years, where external validation means everything, where hustling is the only right way of looking or feeling successful. Well, I was hustling, but I was hustling in a different way, right? So, and it wasn't very evident to let's say people were watching me from the outside. So, one is to be able to make peace with your reality, to be able to redefine your success. A lot of inner work happened, a lot of intentional decision making on what I will not jump to the first job opportunity that I find. I'm gonna think about it, I'm gonna think very thoughtfully in terms of what is the next decade that I want to achieve, and then opt for the right opportunity. So I feel like for sure it redefined a success for me. Um, it gave me some wonderful moments of realization on all these extra hours I had with my children, you know, when I was freelancing this year. And I was like, oh, that's wonderful, that's value in its own. And it's not like I wasn't spending that time earlier. I I definitely had a kind of carved out time for them. We do a lot of things like movie nights and we do crafts, they're very artistic. So all of that was still happening when I was 905. But this year was special. We were relocating. There was so much to do in terms of settling them in. And now that I look at them, they're they're thriving in their new schools and the new systems. And maybe in hindsight, it was good that I took it a little bit slower while they were settling into a new culture. So I think I kind of saw life holistically, I would say to the least, just it was a really healing year. At the same time, it was humbling because I'm coming from, yes, I'm coming from, like you said, Christina, why do you town play yourself? Yes, I'm coming from a very well-known uh kind of corporate background. But I think it it's good to be humble and say, hey, you know what? I may have had it at the back of my hand in Asia in the Middle East, but I'm still a new person in North America. And as I started networking, and that's how you and I met, Christina, you know, I started networking very heavily. I would say I was networking on steroids almost, is that I just realized there's a whole new world. And it was uncomfortable. It was something where I could kind of, you know, it was a mirror for me. Oh, so these are my gaps. Oh, so this is how the North American corporate experience might be very different. So maybe this is the course I need to do. I need to get involved in this AI startup, and that's what I did. Or maybe I need to upskill myself here. And I think, and that's I think that was extremely, extremely positive for me to be able to see um what are the muscles I still need to build. And had I jumped into it immediately, like one day I'm in Dubai and working, the next day I'm here and I'm working, I would have probably made a lot of blunders if I hadn't had the time to up to really absorb and meet with people and connect with people and understand how I need to make that pivot very intentionally. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So you bet on yourself and you invested in yourself and it paid off.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

Always bet on yourself. Uh well, thanks for sharing that piece with us. Let's let's talk about, you know, let's dig into this dual career household and marriage piece. Because yes, there's the career, but there's also you and your husband, like husband and wife, eight nights that are hard to do if you're on different continents, all that. So you and your husband both have meaningful careers. How have you navigated the complexity of being a dual career household? And how do you think about that question of when is it his time versus mine? When do I take the step back or pause? When do I tell him, well, now it's my turn? Or even just daily lives, you know, flexing. Jackie and I talk about this all the time. Like we both have amazing men in our life that had they not been there, we wouldn't be able to do what we do. But there are times when we take on the extra load versus that, you know, like that balance that it's constantly needing to flex. So, how do you how do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00

Oh my god, I'm so passionate about the topic of dual careers. I think if I ever write a book, it's going to be about this. Number two, I think the other policy I really want to push in corporate, and this is not going to be within a company, it's probably requires a consortium of companies to come together, is to really have a policy and acknowledge the fact that there are dual career couples increasingly now, more than before. And there needs to be a way that when you have two ambitious high achievers trying to kind of navigate within their own companies, how do those two companies talk to each other? How do those relocations impact one spouse versus the other? And I really don't believe that you have to box, and this is what I hear a lot from you know people who just ask me. So, have you guys decided who's the trailing spouse? And kind of I'm I despise that word, trailing spouse. No, I'm not the trailing spouse. I'm the advantaged spouse. I mean, I take advantage of his moves. That's what I'm doing in the US. I'm taking advantage of his move, right? So I'm not a trailing spouse, and neither is he. We are trying to optimize and maximize. That's what dual careers are. So, one, I think there needs to be a lot more thinking to be done on that front. Um, two, when it comes to our personal household, just like you said, I'm extremely lucky that I have in my partner a very hands-on dad. And so the first time I left my first child, I only had one back then for a business chip. She was only three to four years old. And I came back to a happy child who was like, Hey mama, you could have stayed longer, right? So you didn't have to come back so soon. And this is the thing, every time I travel, my kids are like, Hey, we're so happy you're gonna be daddy's rule, right? So it's I think that's a blessing, and you have to have that as a bare minimum when you're entering a partnership. And if both of you do know that both of you will have long, lifelong careers. Careers are like marathon. The way it happened with us was also an evolution, it was a journey, as it usually does happen by default, the early childhood, like the childbearing years and you know, early motherhood years. A larger chunk of the responsibility when it comes to the babies and and you know, the more of the household work did fall upon me initially. But I think there came a point where we realized, hey, this is very lopsided. And then both of us said, you know what, okay, we need to reset, we need to divide and conquer. So it will, I wouldn't say that we knew it up front, but I would advise new couples now that have those conversations up front. We kind of worked it along the way, and it worked out beautifully because both of us were reasonable people reasonable, level-headed people, and so we worked it out. But if if your career is so important to you, please have those conversations up front. And I've seen couples even say, hey, this this next five years is is we're gonna focus on yours, and I'm gonna take no. But then the following five years, it's gonna be my time, and then maybe you can support me, or you could keep it to circumstances. For example, in this case, this was a promotion that nobody would want to say no to when it came to my husband, and I wouldn't want him to say no to it, right? Even though I had the most comfortable life in Dubai, I was thriving in my career. I there was nothing that would have made me move out of Dubai, honestly, the kind of life I had, you know, at that point. But it was just that opportunity was too big to miss. And when it's my time, I'm sure we're gonna do the same. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So what you're saying is communication is key in your relationship.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and being being open to bending either ways, it doesn't have to be the same spouse always being kind of boxed as the trading spouse. Yes, we agree.

SPEAKER_02

And it and it hasn't been for you and your husband, right, Fizer? You guys have taken it in turns to, you know, first you move for your role, then he moves for his role, then vice versa, and vice versa. That is that you have a wonderfully equal partnership there, where you have, as you've said, had these conversations about or communicated about what's important. And this brings me to my next question to you, not only about what's important, but you know, what learning about what sacrifice is about, and you know, how did you get your partnership to this point where you both allowed yourself, yourselves the ambition and and opportunity? How did that conversation you talked about the communication, how did that conversation come about? You know, how was how was that conversation?

SPEAKER_00

You have to lay your non-negotiables on the table. So you know it, you you know it when you come across those points in life where when I had to, you know, pick up a one and a half year old and a seven-year-old and move across cities where I knew I will not be um seeing my husband every day and my children will probably have to wait for the weekends, or it was not an easy easy choice. Were we happy about it? No. Was he happy about it at that point in time? No. But was it something that I knew that if I were to leave this opportunity, I will regret it for the rest of my life? Absolutely yes. And so I think it's important to know, as they say, choose your heart. What is your heart? At that point in time, opting for split family was hard, but it was a hard I was willing to choose. The flip of that would have been, hey, I say no to the opportunity, I stick where I am. Maybe I grow, maybe I stagnate. I don't know. I didn't take that path. But in my case, at that point in time, it would have been harder for me to live with the regret of letting go of an opportunity. And also my other mantra in life is I'd rather do it and regret it than not do it and regret it. So I always go towards the next step and then see if I need to roll back rather than sit there and wonder what if, what if, and what if. And can I tell you a funny story? When we when I opted for that move, uh, this was 2018 when my interview started, 2019 I joined the company. I thought I would probably be doing this for the next three years where we would not be living under the same roof, which was a heavy, heavy burden on our heads. And you know, the extra cost of traveling every weekend, and he was doing that as well. He's coming in and meeting us. It's easier for one person to fly and then all three of us to fly back. Within eight months, it was COVID. Can you imagine? Within eight months, nothing's happened. This is this is the power of letting go. I would say sometimes you just cannot predict the future. You have to surrender, you have to do what's right in the moment and let the future unfold itself. And within eight months, that misery automatically ended. We were in under the same roof. I I was so glad and not say no to that opportunity because I would have, you know, slapped myself or beaten myself down. Hey, had I taken it, it was only going to be eight months, right? It's not three years. But who had who would have known? So it's it's the leap of faith. I I believe in taking the leaps of faith, calculated ones, yes, and with the plan B. I love that.

SPEAKER_01

So that's all about choices. All about choices.

SPEAKER_00

All about choices, yes.

SPEAKER_01

So you've talked about yes, having a plan B is very I tell my I tell my daughters that all the time. Always have a plan B for everything. Well, you've talked a lot about the dynamic of you and your husband as the decision makers. And when your kids are young, obviously it's a little, a little easier. One less thing maybe you have to consider. But how does once your children become school-aged, right, and have an opinion, which happens quickly, you know, as they get older into school, they build their own lives, they have their own friendships. How does that then impact these decisions, right? Because now it's not just about you and your husband. You're impacting their lives too. And I get you're the parents, you're the adults, and some people would just say that doesn't matter, they have to live with it. But the reality is, like you said, it does impact them. And you know, it it can it can cause an impact. So, how did you think about that once your kids got older and those decisions?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we're living it right now. So if I go back a few years, it also really depends on your parenting style. The way me and my husband raised our children when they were toddlers and babies, like we're going for a movie, the babies are gonna go along. They can put earbuds, that's fine. Or we didn't have uh grandparents in the house. If you're traveling, you skip the nap, you travel with us, right? So we're pretty relaxed in that way, and whatever we had to do, when we travel, fun, adventures, we kind of made our kids pretty adaptable. And when it was when they were younger, when I moved cities or when we moved from Pakistan to Dubai, we were like, yeah, of course they're gonna change schooling. Yes, they will have to adjust, yes, they'll have to leave their old friends and make new friends, and all of that is part of life, only because uh both of us do strongly believe that children who are exposed to different environments, cultures, and a more agile uh way of life are eventually more adaptable and well-rounded adults. And because we had that philosophy in our head that we are not doing something detrimental to our kids by introducing these life changes in their life, of course, it's not happening happening every six months, it's happening every three to four years, sometimes after five years, sometimes even after eight years, depending on how it happened in our situation. Um, that was up till the age of when they were in middle school, and I think now it's evolving. I have my older daughter who's gonna start high school in this fall. I cannot imagine this is happening to me, but it is, and um, and I can already see that that formula worked all the way up till now that doesn't work anymore. So now we have almost a third stakeholder at the table. She has a point of view, and again, the parenting philosophy is that we respect her point of view as well. Her emotions matter, she's a teenager. It just is already such a big feat that she has traveled cross-culturally and found her space, and she's already having these amazing play dates and hanging out with friends. And so now the next whatever step, you know, it's not two adults deciding, it's three people deciding, you know. The younger one I still kind of don't worry so much about anymore. She's still in elementary, but yes, so it does evolve. But I think there was a certain formula that really worked for us in the first 10, 11 years of our child's life. And uh we're very which is why I feel like this was the right pivot for me to decide if I can pause in my career, decide on the next decade. Again, the an so my husband's promotion, my career, and her higher education. I mean, think about all the ants there, right? If I can make it through, and that's what kind of pushed me to take that risk of why would I not want my child to get the most amazing education here in the US if she can? Why not? Great, right? Excellent question. And the last six months I've always had I've already been thinking about that because I knew that the window that I have in terms of making a decision for the next five years, of course, I I never joined a role or a company thinking I'm gonna leave them in two years, and neither did I. You know, I've had a long six-year run with Unilever up until last year, and then I took the sabbatical prior to that five years with Nestle as well. So I knew I was planning for the next five years. Why? Because high school is the next four years within that five-year window. So when when I when I was telling my mentors, when I was networking, we met in Vegas, Christina, I was telling everyone, I am actually flexible up until the month of May, and after that, I'm not. So when I was actively hunting and interviewing, I said we can make a decision at this point in time, and I know it will feel a little bit harsh because we've just been here for a year, but I'd rather make a location decision um in the summer holidays and uh and and whatever. If if I even get not my dream job, but the second or the third best, I'll take it and I will make sure that you know I make the best out of it, uh, considering that kids have to be settled into school the similar way in the same time frame. And so that's one important thing is to see how do we how do we kind of navigate the next four years, which is high school for her. So that has been part of my conversations. Uh, that has been kind of my non-negotiable when I have kind of now accepted her also. So uh it was definitely if she was being mentioned in my, you know, my daughter was being mentioned in this conversation that this is how I will navigate my rule, or this is how I will not relocate, or this is how I will relocate, whether it's within the US or outside. And I think, of course, now that I'm anyways, you know, jumping onto something new, I don't see myself moving across continents immediately. I don't think that's realistic. I also don't think that's beneficial for my career. So I do believe we'll get a little bit of stability, and that's very intentional.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I love how you kind of talk about this that you have your non-negotiables and you advocate for those and you communicate them. You know, you are willing to flex and compromise a bit, but you're not willing to sacrifice them so much or try to fit into, you know, what works for the company with no regard for yourself and your family. And I think that's just so important that you bring value. You don't have to sacrifice and compromise on all those things that are important to you, right? Companies, it has to be mutually beneficial. And when we had Asha Khan on, she spoke about this too, right? That you come together and it's as much of you interviewing them as it is them interviewing you. And I think a lot of people forget about that. And obviously, easier said than done, especially if you're a little later in your career and feel like you've earned it. But at any stage in your life, you need to do that. And I think it's important to remind our listeners that you control the destiny of your life and you get to make those choices. Like you said, life is all about choices. So, what are the choices that matter most to you and what are your non-negotiables? And be intentional about that as you go into it.

SPEAKER_00

Like you said, it's a fit. We're looking for a fit. It is not one way, it's it's it's like Lego pieces coming together. So, yes, you may have one or two or three ands in there if you were me. But I will have to rest as much as I can.

SPEAKER_01

Well, this has been fantastic. I know we're getting close to the end, so we're gonna jump to our lightning round. Jackie, I'll let you start. I'll you do the honors. This is like brief, like what comes top of mind to you?

SPEAKER_00

That now that she's a working mother, she wants to slow down. No, she may not want to slow down. Your system is forcing her to slow down. You are wrapping flexibility and forcing her to slow down. Do not give me flexibility and make me slow. Give me the system that helps me elevate myself. In fact, I got all my promotions after I had my second child. I was navigating two kids and then all the growth kind of came in. So it's possible.

SPEAKER_01

Can I add to this? I know you didn't ask me, but it's my show. It's our show. We're allowed to do that. We can improvise, right? Because another working myth, I'd like to retire in in honors of mother's um in honors of Mother's Day coming up, is that working moms aren't still just as had hands-on, just as involved, and you know, just as dedicated to motherhood because I do feel like there's a stigma that goes both ways, but there's a big stigma there. Oh, you didn't show up, uh, you didn't volunteer. No, but I it's again quality over quantity, and I am there as much as I can be, trust me. Um, and I think the same goes. So sorry.

SPEAKER_00

100%. I 100% agree. There is so much happening that the world does not see the way we creatively carve out time for those very, very heavy weighted emotional bonding moments, and I do that with my girls a lot.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we've crossed that bridge many years ago. All right, I'll get off my soapbox. Okay, so as Jackie was saying, this is one of my favorite questions to ask. What is your hype song, go-to song when you're getting ready for a big presentation, an interview, a meeting? How do you get yourself ready?

SPEAKER_00

Very cliche, but it's unstoppable.

SPEAKER_01

That one?

SPEAKER_00

No, I know it is pretty cliche, but that is that is my go-to.

SPEAKER_01

Oh my gosh, I could totally see that playing. Well, you are. You are absolutely, I believe it. You are unstoppable.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, thank you. Oh, yes, I'm so passionate about this. Um, number one, do not settle for what the system offers. Ask for more. You will be surprised when you ask. Not just the system or your employer, ask your spouse, ask your family, ask your village, take the help. I know we hear this a lot and we still struggle with taking help. Please don't the era off. Being a super mom who does it all alone is over. It's no longer glamorous to do it all on your own. Please delegate redundant work. Please delegate, delegate, delegate as much as you can so you can carve out time for what's really value added. And that for me, super clear. I'm either delivering value at work or I'm delivering value at home. That's it. Absolutely. That's not adding value. I don't care. I don't need my name on it. Somebody else can do that as long as it's done. So please delegate. I think those are the three things. Ask for it, make that village, and delegate.

SPEAKER_01

Love it. Well, there's so much in what you've shared that I know is going to resonate with people. So thank you for being so honest and giving with your time and transparent as well.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you so much, Christina and Jackie, for having me. Thank you so much. It was it was a fun conversation.

SPEAKER_01

Mm-hmm. And you're you're also giving women that permission to see that advocating for themselves, for their families, for better systems, right, in the workplace is not selfish. It is not. It is it is leadership in action, and it is, you know, is going to make you better in all of those facets of life.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. You just have to see the system is perhaps broken and not designed in the first place to cater to working moms. And we are just asking it to be better designed. That's it. Absolutely. And and then you realize that there were and there were a hundred other women who were actually feeling that pain. But let's just convert that pain into purpose. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, Fisa, we're so sad to see it end. But with every episode, we we do this because it matters so deeply to us and