SPEAKER_02

Welcome back to She Commerce where power women, bold brands, and real talk collide.

SPEAKER_03

One day I'll have two actual things colliding. That's my plan. That's my dream. Hi, everybody. We're Christina and Jackie, and today we have a very special Father's Day episode that perfectly captures both the She and the commerce of She Commerce.

SPEAKER_02

That's right. Today's conversation will focus on fatherhood, allyship, creativity, AI, and the future of work, all through the lens of one very unique, very special guest. We'll be talking about what it means to raise strong young women and how sometimes that can backfire on you as a parent, how creativity is evolving in the age of Gen AI, and what skills matter most in future workplaces, and why some of the most important leadership lessons don't come from the boardroom. They come from home.

SPEAKER_03

And trust me, this guest has plenty of material to work with at home. But before we bring him in, let's spill some tea. Him? It's a clue. Mm-hmm. We love celebrating women who are making power moves. And this week, we're giving a huge shout-out to a familiar face in the SheCommerce Sisterhood.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. Congratulations to former SheCommerce guest, Fiza Ijaz, on her new role as drumroll strategy and innovation lead for Liquid IV International at Unilever North America. Fisa has always brought a fearless combination of strategic thinking, innovation, and leadership to everything she does. And we're excited to see the impact she will most certainly make in this next chapter of her career. Congratulations, Fisa. You know Jackie and I are cheering you on from the sidelines, and we can't wait to have a celebratory drink with you.

SPEAKER_03

So happy for you, Fisa. Awesome work.

SPEAKER_02

And now on to today's special guest. Today's guest is a little different and a lot more personal. We're joined by Andrew Pearson, award-winning creative director, content strategist, storyteller, and one of the most influential creative leaders working in the beverage industry today. Over the course of his career, Andrew has gone from agency copywriter to leading creative and content strategy for some of the world's most iconic brands. His work has earned recognition across the industry's most prestigious stages, including Can Lions, One Show Pencils, Effies, Clio's, and even a Grand Prix at The Lorries, the largest advertising awards show across Africa and the Middle East. From agency life to leadership roles at Prono Recard and now Diagio, Andrew has spent his career helping brands connect with people through powerful storytelling, creativity, and culture. And as the industry stands at another inflection point with AI, he's helping shape conversations around what changes, what doesn't, and what remains uniquely human. But today isn't just about marketing. In honor of Father's Day, we're also celebrating one of the most important men in my life, my husband, my partner, and my favorite person to debate absolutely everything with. Andrew is a proud girl dad, a devoted bonus dad, and currently the only male resident in a household occupied by me, our three daughters, and our live in nanny, which means he spends his days navigating global brands and his evenings navigating dance recitals, girl drama, cheer competitions, emotional negotiations, Taylor Swift playlists, and levels of stats that no leadership training could ever prepare you for. Today we're talking about fatherhood, creativity, allyship, raising strong young women, the evolution of advertising, and what the future of work looks like in an AI-powered world. Andrew, welcome to SheCom.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you, Christina. Thank you, my darling. It's really, really nice to be here. Jackie, thank you for having me as well. I'm really excited to be on the show. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02

You can call Jack your darling too. It's fine.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Both my darlings.

SPEAKER_03

You lucky man. Andrew, you know that Christina has a high regard for you if she's doing the intro for you. And such a lovely one as well, right?

SPEAKER_00

I do. I mean, there's, you know, many times a day I think to myself that I'm a very, very lucky chap. You know, I guess it's just another one of those times.

SPEAKER_03

That is so sweet. Okay. Now, before we get into AI and advertising, we need the tea. And by tea, I mean the heavy stuff, the lap song Sujong, right? So tell us. Tell us all the goss, Andrew. Christina talks about you all the time. So we want to shake things up a bit and start with a brief lightning round to learn your version of your love story. And we're going to start with who made the first move.

SPEAKER_00

I did. I uh I I'd known Christina for a while professionally. When I was at Ogleby, she was on the client side, uh, both at Monlies and Records. So I we we knew each other uh sort of professionally, and then when I moved to the States, we met at a couple of conferences and and workshops and that kind of thing. And you know, so we'd we'd become friends that way. But then uh as our lives changed and and all of that, and I realized that there was an opportunity to potentially ask this lady out. I I went for it. I wasn't gonna hesitate. I I asked her out for dinner, uh asked her after a little bit of a date, and the rest is history.

SPEAKER_03

Fantastic. And what was your first impression of Christina?

SPEAKER_00

Well, this lady's smart. Goodness gracious. You you know, uh Christina's obviously a uh a very striking lady, but then when you realize the brains that come with the package, it's it's quite a thing.

SPEAKER_03

And when did you realize she was smarter than you, Andrew?

SPEAKER_00

About three minutes into our first conversation.

SPEAKER_03

Now, this is this is a question that I think only you could answer with full, I guess, full experience. What is the most Christina thing that Christina does?

SPEAKER_00

I think get stuff done. Uh I'll be quite proud of myself. I'm having a pretty good day at work, getting a few things done around the house, and we'll be catching and chatting up. So, like, well, you know, I spoke to this person, I organized this thing, I did that, I've arranged this, I sorted out these things in in about half an hour. She's probably one of the most high-functioning, efficient people I've ever met in my entire life.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, you know what? That drives me nuts about her, too.

SPEAKER_00

But I I have a feeling that's because she just never sleeps.

SPEAKER_03

Well, yeah. There is there's also that. She never sleeps and looks like that. How is that even fair in this world? There's that that I mean, you know. What habit does she have though, Andrew, that drives you insane?

SPEAKER_00

Doesn't speak. Doesn't speak. Three, it's it's three three, four hours a night, that's plenty. Anything else, you're just being lazy and you need to get stuff done.

SPEAKER_03

Sleep in your dent. What is the one thing that people don't know about her?

SPEAKER_00

I I think they'd be surprised to hear how good she is at air hockey. Phenomenal. Phenomenal air hockey player. You know, uh close close, close on unbeatable and also uh fantastic cook. Uh Jackie, I I'm not sure if Christina's ever ever cooked for you, but uh, if you ever get the chance, no, you need to ask her for um some of her sort of old country that she got from her aunt Betty, some of the old country Italian recipes. Absolutely knock your socks off.

SPEAKER_03

Fantastic. That's it, Christina. Next work retreat. I know. All right. I'm bringing the bringing the food. Fantastic. So, Andrew, who apologizes first after an argument? Me. Is it because it's your fault? Sure. Let's hear.

SPEAKER_00

Let's go with that answer.

SPEAKER_03

And who and finally, who's more competitive?

SPEAKER_00

Well, we're we're both we're both very competitive, but I think Christina, I think her competitive nature would say she's probably more competitive than me. Yeah. I love it.

SPEAKER_02

All right. Enough about me. Enough about me. Okay, we're gonna go into your husband on, Jackie, and put you on the hot seat next, all right?

SPEAKER_03

That'll be a hard no. Now we're gonna go into the only man in the house segment. Andrew, let's discuss the demographics in your household. You're drastically outnumbered. So what has surprised you most about raising three girls?

SPEAKER_00

I I think you know that young young girls are gonna be full of energy. I think the volume at which it comes at you was was a bit of a surprise. It's never a quiet house. It really isn't. And in fact, those moments when they're all at cheer and dance, like all three of them are doing something, the house is spookily quiet. And you kind of wait for them to come back in, the volume gets raised again, you get the feet running around and things crashing and banging and shouting. And it's never a quiet house, but I love that. It's there's always this wonderful sort of hum, this undercurrent of of noise. Sometimes it's quite a loud hum. Uh you know, when you decide to have a sing along while you're trying to do a zoom, that's interesting. But definitely, I think just the energy in the house, you can you can really, really feel it. It's wonderful.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I love that. So pivoting slightly, what have your daughters taught you that about women that no sort of leadership seminar could could ever really touch?

SPEAKER_00

I think I, you know, I could make a joke around, uh, you know, girl girls are even lesser than boys, but I think there's actually a a a real lesson just in how resilient and how strong they can be. It's very, very interesting to see because sometimes I think with all girls, they might have their little sort of younger princess y moments, which is, you know, what you think, but then other moments where they are so strong, so resilient, they bounce back super quick. The the sheer vibrant optimism that they bring to life every single day about just being excited to be alive, whether it's a school trip or uh seeing their friends or they're having a sleepover, whatever it might be, they just radiate optimism and excitement for life. They just want to take these huge, big bites out of life. And I think it's because they're young, but also just because of the the people they are and sort of the the way their mother has taught them to to view the world. They're just so excited to be alive and do that next big thing. What what what are we doing today? What are we gonna go and and find or do or experience? They just want to really, like I said, take those bites out of life. And it's it's a beautiful thing. I think it's contagious as well. It gives me energy, it gives me path, it gives me, it gets me excited to go out and do stuff as well.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, that's gorgeous. What is what do you think, though, the biggest misconception is that men have about raising daughters?

SPEAKER_00

They're tougher than you think. They they really are tougher than you think. I think there's a there's a big misconception that you need to um sort of be be hyper aware of of the girly things. But these these girls are super tough. They will, you know, they'll they'll fight each other, they'll fight the world. And I think you you've got to realize that they are no, I mean, I had to realize, I I had to learn that they they're tough little cookies. And they, you know, they they're not gonna take no for an answer, which is sometimes quite challenging when you're trying to tell them no. But it's it's the best skill that they can have, I think, in in in the world we live in, the way they're gonna navigate life later. They've just been taught that like you don't just accept what's given to you, be tough, fight for what you want, don't just take no for an answer. Ask why. Again, tough when you're parenting, but wonderful for them as a life skill.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. What are you most proud of as a dad?

SPEAKER_00

A lot. A lot. It's been a it's been a very, very steep learning curve. I'm proud of things that I've done. I'm proud of them. But I do think it's it's hard to take pride in it actually just because I came in late. You know, I I sort of joined their life years ago when you know our youngest was was was two and then uh two, four, and and going on ten. So I think a lot of their their personalities and and and way of seeing the world have been shaped by their mom already. So it's really, really hard to take pride or credits for the little girls they are. I just generally try to keep up. I try to, you know, do I'm just just a guy doing his best to do his best, try to keep up. I think I am really, really proud of all three of them for exploring their own personalities. Three very, very distinct personalities, and that could kind of meld into like one glob. But all three of them, very different personalities, very different profiles, very different needs, wants, likes, which is great. They they they are who they are, they believe firmly in who they are and they know who they are. Unapologetic, very unapologetic, like their mom. I'm kidding. They they know exactly who they are as individuals and they and they and they're chasing that as hard as they can. It's great.

SPEAKER_03

That's that that is absolutely wonderful to hear. So on the flip side, what's the hardest part?

SPEAKER_00

Oof, uh, you know, you you you want to raise strong, tough, confident women. That means trying to raise strong, tough, confident women. And then you've got three of them in the house.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, you have four of them. Five.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I've yeah, I've I've I've got five, but if you know, three of them are are sort of under under the age of 15, two of them are under the age of 10. And when all you want is for them to take a bath, but they are insistent that it's going to be, you know, sing a long time or jump on the bedtime or and they will explain to you why they're in the right. They will tell you why it's it's very, very important that you play this song so they can dance to it before they shower. You know, when you're it's like it's it's wonderful knowing how how how confident and self-assured they are. But when that confidence and self-assurance comes through when all you're trying to do is get them to finish dinner, that could definitely be one of the hardest parts.

SPEAKER_03

Andrew, tell me they're Christina's kids without telling me they're Christina's kids.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. Exactly. I mean, the the world they're gonna have to navigate requires a strong, confident woman. But it's their mother sets a high bar for that. But you know, sometimes when all you want is for them to listen, we're thinking, hmm, maybe if they could just be a little more pliable, a little more close-up.

SPEAKER_02

An off button for it. That'd be great.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Exactly. So how do you how do you think, or how do you earn their trust as opposed to expecting it?

SPEAKER_00

I think showing up uh is has has been a big part of my learning curve and realizing that the more you put in, the more you get out. You can you can ask a child to do something because you're a parent, but if you're there, whether it's early morning for a chair competition, late night when they're feeling sick, or uh middle of the day when you don't say, Oh, I have to work, and you show up for that dance recital or that school concert or something like that. I think if if the more you can show them that you're there in their life and present and showing up for them, they trust that when something happens that either you can't or you need them to do something, they they kind of understand there's a why behind it. You're not just this parental figure that's saying, do this, do this, and do it because I say so. I think the more you can show up for them and show that you're in their life because you want to be and because you love them and because you're generally interested in their development, then when you have to push them a little bit harder, I feel they're they're a little bit more receptive to like, okay, I think this person knows what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_03

I'll never in that.

SPEAKER_00

No.

SPEAKER_03

And finally, Andrew, what advice would you give other men stepping into blended families?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, it's it's it's go slow, realize that you are gonna make mistakes, be be kind to yourself. It's a tricky thing to navigate, right? And every blended family is different. We're lucky that ours generally gets along pretty well. There's not a lot of uh drama or tension behind the scenes, which is which is really, really nice. We're we're lucky in that way. But I think for anyone stepping into a blender family, just be kind to yourself. You're gonna make mistakes, you're gonna have a steep learning curve. Uh, be open to the experience. And and when you do make a mistake, just own it. Yeah. Just I I I did X because I thought I was doing the right thing. This was my thinking behind it. Clearly, it was the wrong thing to do, but I'm taking it on as a learning. And then you just try to remember those lessons. Doesn't always work. It can it can be it can be tricky, but that's probably the best guide I think you can follow.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, these have been great questions. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02

He is the best bonus dad. We're gonna we're gonna pivot. We're gonna talk a little bit more about women, leadership, and allyship. So you've spent your career surrounded by strong women professionally, personally, obviously. How has becoming a girl dad maybe changed your perspective on you know seeing women in leadership and your definition of equality and how that may have evolved?

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's that's a that's that's a big question. I think if I look back on my career and some of the mentors and and leaders that I worked under, a couple of the very best ones that I still are I'm in touch with. I lean on them when I started this this new job. Uh, one of them, Fran Luckin, who's uh one of the greatest advertising minds in South Africa, worked under Fran. She was ECD at Ogilvie. One of the most amazing people in advertising, never mind women in advertising. I've been lucky enough to have had mentors like them to learn from in my career. And it's not just, you know, for for our girls, for me, even, uh, when you go like, what would this person do in this situation? Yeah, give w women like Fran are are sort of top of mind when I think, what would they do? How would they handle this situation? And I think when it when it comes to what I would want for for our girls, I think would be for them to have that self-confidence and belief in their own abilities that some of the best women leaders that I've ever worked with or seen have. Where they know they can be tough as a woman. They know that men can, you know, just demand occasionally, whether it's microaggressions or macroaggressions. I think that fundamental belief in your own abilities and your own place in the world, and it's not about arrogance, it's about self-confidence. Uh both of you do that really, really well. Um, where you you you know what you're good at and you you you celebrate that, but there's no arrogance about it. Just you know what you're good at. I think if if we can instill that in our girls going forward, where you can go like, I learned this from a wonderful leader who happened to be a woman. These are some of her habits and things they taught me. Maybe I can pass those off to my kids for them to embrace as future women in the workplace. That would be great. I I would love for them to be able to absorb that. But then also try and and unlock their self-confidence and self-value so they know their worth. They can walk into a room, whatever it may be, whether it's business, CPG, marketing, engineering, medical, one of them wants to be a vet. Fantastic. Walk in there and know I know this about myself, I know this about my abilities, and I'm going to be confident about it. Not arrogant, but know their own worth. I think if we can instill that in them, we would have done a great job as parents and set them up as great future female leaders.

SPEAKER_02

What do male leaders, in your opinion, still misunderstand about creating some of those opportunities for women? Because uh you talk we talk a lot about equality and you know, in many ways, we're not there yet. And what, in your opinion, in light of those things, are some of the best male allies doing right to overcome that gap?

SPEAKER_00

I think there are a lot of men who are taking a more active role in family life now, whether it's because they're single dads or because they want to be more involved parents, but it's still very, very weighted towards women who carry a lot of the loads from the the the fetching, the carrying, the taking to the doctor, the organizing the school stuff. And I think an understanding of what a lot of women carry outside of their job is something that'd be really, really useful to a lot of men. Yes, a lot of men are starting to do that, but the majority of women are also arranging the household, organizing things, and and have that second job as mom or or or mother of the house. And I think for men to understand that this person who's working with you or for you in your team, this isn't their only job. They have another full-time job. So sometimes you need to be understanding of that. I think would be a very, very important thing. If if more more male senior leaders could realize that, that if you have a high performing woman in your team, there's a good chance this isn't her only job. And she's never getting a second job as a mother or as a head of household. So yeah, be aware of that, be understanding of it.

SPEAKER_02

I think that that's important. I'm gonna push you a little bit here because I I do think people realize that, but they also then use that against them to say, well, I know she's balancing all this other stuff, so she's not gonna be as dedicated, or maybe she's not gonna be already to take on this promotion because then that's one more expectation on her.

SPEAKER_00

100%. It's it's it's terrible, but they do weaponize that fact, right? They'll go like, oh, you know, this this person's doing a great job as a uh a caretaker or ahead of household, but does that mean they're ready for this? Because will they be able to find the time? I think women are so much better at finding the time and making the time to excel in multiple things, but you know, instead of realizing that and embracing it, there there are far too many male leaders who can use that as a as an excuse. I I agree with you. I don't know what the solve is. I'm hoping that it can get better. I don't think there's an immediate solve. I think it's gonna take male allies and men who realize that they're the problem and and kind of push around that. Unfortunately, it's it's not gonna be an overnight thing.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, it's not gonna be an overnight thing, but what do you hope has changed when our daughters enter the workforce?

SPEAKER_00

Merit. I think just going who's the best person for the job, not oh, this is a great candidate and they're a woman, or this is a fantastic candidate even though they're a woman. That that that kind of thing, those modifiers. I really hope that those modifiers go away. Just this is a fantastic candidate for the job, or you know, you you you you have a great skill set, let's put you in in the position we need, without the secondary add-on of even though you're a woman, or because you're a woman, or despite you being a woman. I I would love for that to just fall away.

SPEAKER_03

Amen. Do you think it might in our lifetime, Andrew?

SPEAKER_00

In some places, yes. I think there are more um certain fields or career tracks where that's happening more than others. I think there there will still be traditionally or harder to break misogynistic just career tracks that are gonna be tougher. But I think there are some that are getting better at it. In terms of a holistic across the board in our lifetime, it'd be nice, but I'm not sure if let's hope.

SPEAKER_02

Let's hope. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Just work for it. Like we we I think, you know, it's it's it's important that conversations like this happen and there are allies that ha can help push that. And also make a part of the culture, right? Whether it that they're business leaders or uh company owners or or whatever it is that they can make that part of the culture of that business or that company that that'll help. So you need that being driven from the top.

SPEAKER_03

Agree. Now let's talk about the career path, your career path, because it's it's a little bit fascinating. You started off as a writer. What attracted you to copywriting?

SPEAKER_00

I have my father to to thank for that actually. I I grew up doing reading. I I would just voraciously consume books. I would just read and read and read and read and write, which meant that at school I was very good at like English, getting like you know, uh high high 90s cross-the-board for English. But at the same time, uh maths, science, not great, not great at all. Christina can, you know, confirm that my my mathematics skills are, you know, not the best. Lacking. Lacking. Yeah. So when it when it came to school, subjects like English or history or geography, you know, I I drew them, I did really well, but then the the sciences, you know, uh chemistry, physics, maths really battled. Just uh I hardly passed. It was it was touch and go as to whether whether I would pass those or not. So after school, where I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do, uh my father said, Do you know about this thing called copywriting? I was like, no. And he says, Well, there's there's an ad school. It's called the Triple A School of Advertising. Christina teases me about relentlessly in South Africa. The the AAA is is you know, it's it's kind of your Miami ad school of North Africa. But it does, you know, when you come to America and talk about the triple A school of advertising, it does sound a little bit strip mall, you know, it doesn't sound like correct. But my father said they've got this thing called copywriting where you can write ads. They'll teach you how to write ads. And and we'd shared some some you know, uh a love of ads in the past, you know, shows like Jasper Carrot's commercial breakdown. There was an ad eaters thing where you went, it was a show where you just watched ads and made noises. It was like an evening out. So we we we shared that and you said, well, you know, you've always been good at writing. Here's a chance for you to do that. Go check out this school, check out this course. Uh and I did, I looked at it and I was like, oh, I can just like write ads. I can be the guy that makes funny ads. That that sounds fantastic. And I I dove into that and you know, went to the school, learned all about it, and then got my first ad job after that at Ogilby in Johannesburg. Um it was just a great example of a parent understanding their child and figuring out what they need. Like this, my dad knew I was never gonna be an engineer. He knew that whatever I did would be more of a linguistic track. And he, you know, he he he did his homework and said, here's the thing that I think you should check out. I did. It's become my career, it's become something I I I love doing. So, yeah, again, uh credit to the old man for sending me down that road.

SPEAKER_03

That's wonderful. So, what what made you move from agency life though at Ogilvy Ogilvie to uh to in-house?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I Ogilvy was my my first agency job, and I was at it used to be called brand activation, now it's called geometry. It's a sort of below and through the line arm of Ogilvie. That's where I cut my teeth. And it was the best thing that happened to me in in my career. A lot of my my peers and friends just wanted to go to the big agencies to make TV ads and and famous work. I wound up in a below the line and through the line activation track where we weren't shooting the big TV ads, but we were doing everything else from posters to coasters to promo to shopper, all that. And I got the understanding of the 80% of work that goes into a campaign most of the time, not the shiny stuff at the top. And it really set me up for success as a differentiator, as a creative who understands the through-the-line machine as opposed to just the shiny stuff on the top. Plus, in South Africa, pretty much every big agency has a beverage alcohol account. Mine started on beer. And so I had to understand, you know, how does alcohol advertising work? Because there's a lot of similarities across the globe. And then as I went, you know, grew in my career, became more senior, better what I do. You go to different agencies. Then I moved to Cape Town, I was at the FCB for a while. Then I had the distel accounts, there was more spirits and wine, beverage alcohol, and through the line creative programming was a big part of my career, which set me up as a bit of a unicorn because not a lot of creators have that. They just have the I want to make shiny ads. They'll understand a little bit about the logistics of below the line, but I I had a really, really deep understanding of it, which gave me opportunities in my life. Like when I went to Dubai, started working at Hubbas. There was a lot of stuff that I could help lead in the department around below the line content and through the line content. So it opened a lot of doors for me. It opened the door to then move to Hubbus in New York. I get my green cards, stay in the States. That opened the door to in-house then. Uh when I started my career many, many moons ago, in-house was the death of a career. It's where creative careers go to die. Nowadays, it's actually the opposite. You want to be in-house. Advertising agency life is hard now. You're always pitching. You don't know when the hold code is either going to buy you out or cut you down. It's really, really tricky. The independence are fighting for every bit of account work they can. Whereas on the in-house side, you might be an inch deep, but you're a mile wide. You understand your category, your product, your company. There's a lot more job security. You can do better work because you're suddenly understanding what cross-functional collaboration means in a business context, not an agency context. In-house is where you want to be. And I think companies have realized the value of it. It's not just like old creators whose careers have gone to die and they're bringing them in to help do some collateral. Now they want top-tier talent in the building to do top-tier work instead of leaving it to the agencies or paying the agencies to do it. So I was given the opportunity to move from agency life to Pernot Ricard purely because I've been lucky enough to have had a lot of liquor experience and a lot of below the line and through the line.

SPEAKER_02

In his personal experience.

SPEAKER_00

Liquor experience in work. Yes, liquor experience in work. Some some personal consumption moments too. But having an understanding of beverage alcohol and a deep, deep bench there from the likes of SAB Miller and that kind of thing, all the way to the liquor side with DiAgio and Beam and Centauri and all those, I I've had that. But then also the fact that I spoke fluid through the line, opened the door to to moving in-house. And once I moved in-house to Perna, I was there for I think three and a half years. Um I I was like, I don't want to, I don't ever want to work at an agency ever again. That just wasn't for me. And then I got laid off and went to go work for an agency for a year. But you know, it happens. But then, you know, after after a year going back and running it out of home, created a studio, got the chance to work at DHGR. I was knocking at DHGO's door for about a year for the role that I have now. It finally came right and and I I couldn't be happier. I think the the in-house opportunity to do not just great work, but actually have business impact is is something that's really hard to do at one of the bigger hold codes now and independent agencies. You can win awards, you can maybe win some effies, but to have real tangible business change as part of what decisions the business makes in in-house is where it's at. There was quite a long, rambling answer. I hope you got what you wanted out of that question.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely, Andrew. No, it was it was a great answer. But I and I guess that's where the skills, your unicorn skills that you honed yourself, right? Would you say that that those are that's some of the skills that from your agency life that still matter to you today? You know, absolutely that's helped you?

SPEAKER_00

A hundred percent. I think a full understanding of the omni-channel landscape, a 360 view of what goes into marketing, communications, and advertising content is something that not a lot of creators, particularly when they're starting out now, get. Young creators now, they know how to edit, they know how to make TikTok style content. That is content, content, content. But do they understand how a promotion in a store will actually let's even back it up. Do young creators now even understand the difference between top funnel and bottom funnel? I I'm not sure they do. I think everyone's all like content, social content. That's such a actually small part of what goes into building a brand and communicating a brand. And I think part of our job as senior, aged, older creative leaders need to take honest, to go. No, this is me. This is me. Us all not you young spring chickens on on the other end of this this call. Um I I I'm not convinced that young creators nowadays are getting exposure to the full omnichannel mix of what goes into advertising. And I think that's going to hamper the talent development going forward. Like, do the do they know why a store does a type of promotion in store? Do they know the difference between on-premise and off-premise? Do they know why uh CRN is very important? Do they know why you know retaining customers is just as important as attracting them in a top funnel?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Or just you know, how does that top funnel connect to all of the lower funnel conversion driving parts, like you mentioned, price, promo, package, et cetera, and thinking through that early on.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. You know, there's um and back at Ogreview, this is back in the day, I'm showing my age, we had the last mile. When you looked at shopper marketing, was you know, you start start up here and then gradually get smaller and smaller and smaller to the point of purchase. A lot of crew is like, boring. I don't want to know that. I just want to go out and shoot stuff. But if you don't know why you're shooting stuff to get someone to a place of like, okay, I've gone from awareness, now I'm going into consideration, I'm going to purchase. Like, if you don't even understand those most basic steps, you don't really understand how marketing communication works. And it's it's one of the things I work hard on with my teams to go, okay, what's our idea? Number one, but then stop telling me about the stuff you want to shoot. Tell me about how this idea travels through the whole campaign, what's someone's seeing in store, what are they seeing on a billboard, what are they seeing in their inbox as a text, all that stuff. Um, I think that young creators nowadays need to learn more of that, to be honest. It makes you a better creative when you understand the full mix.

SPEAKER_03

100%, 100%. And I think, I think as well, Andrew, it despite the fact that there's so much social out there, everybody now works in a more siloed manner. Yeah. So you have content, you have the folks who work on upper funnel, outside of content, the folks who work on the lower funnel. And there isn't, and and very few are actually looking at the entirety of that of that life cycle, exactly as you said.

SPEAKER_00

I I I think so, Jackie, and even the this isn't a knock on the process. I understand why it happens. But if you look at your average IAT process when it comes to campaign for uh you know, I've I've been on the client side of IATs, I've been on the creative side of IATs. And the problem is so you're bringing in an integrated agency team. We're bringing in our brand agency, our sh social agency, our shopper agency, our influencer agency, our digital agency, our experiential agency, which means you've got seven different agencies who actually at the end of the day are fundamentally protecting their bottom line. So they want to make sure they can squeeze as much G-Sail as projects as possible. They all want to be seen as valuable. So they're fighting for that visibility of the value they're bringing. And actually, what gets left behind is do we have a cohesive idea and the right specialists working in the right lanes to bring it together, but also talking. The amount of IITs I've been in, and I've probably been guilty of this in the past as well, because you want to protect yourself. You come and go, I want to own the idea. So we're bringing this, and the other agency wants to own the idea. So they're bringing that, and every agency is fighting to be in the spotlight. It's rare and it's a beautiful thing when an IIT is actually everyone working together. A lot of the time it's fragmented and frustrating and full of swirl because we've got all these specialists in there, kind of forgetting that there needs to be a lot of integration within that, the integrated part of IIT.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So it can be tricky, and that's yeah, I feel like the chaos that we see as a consumer and shopper that it's so disconnected, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And the inconsistencies you'll see. Because often there might be like an idea or a creative platform, but you've got seven different specialists all bring it to life the way they see fit, which often is quite different from each other. So you get these these inconsistencies. Yeah. And I don't think that's terribly helpful for brands. I think the more yeah, special specialization has its its perks, but I think also, Jackie, to answer your question, I I think specialization has made things a bit trickier and also can negatively affect the work, to be honest. Or brands.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, completely, completely. And I think as well with the specialization, you're so into your own your own thing that you forget, hi, you're here for the client, not for your own self, for the client. And that and that gets a lot of the time. Yeah, sure. But I'm I'm gonna pivot a little bit. Yes, Christina. Okay, Andrew. You started as a writer, as we just uh as we just discussed. Are we ever getting those children's books that you have been talking about and threatening to write for a long time? Christina let us in on the secret.

SPEAKER_00

Boy, I hope so. It's uh it's definitely one of those uh log pile projects that's just been sitting at the back of the shed for way too long. I think I've overthinked it, to be honest. I've had the original draft, and that was a bit long, and then I've written more and more, and um I think I've just rewritten them a few times, a few too many times.

SPEAKER_02

Um I've got these three stories actually gave giving myself credit and I gave the girls each their own story for Christmas.

SPEAKER_00

So I'd I'd written uh I'd written these these these short tales with these central characters, and I gave the girls each one uh for Christmas and the stories that you know, it was a story for each of them, and there was a little bit of them in each story. Yeah, I need to just I need to get it done, Jackie. I I really do. I need to stop sitting on this thing, and I I think maybe what I need to do is just get it out there, just try, speech, publish it, make CF.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Maybe that's what's holding me back is if I start doing that, then it becomes real. Maybe I just need to stop being a wuss and just try get it out in front of some people.

SPEAKER_03

Think of it this way not what will you lose if you don't do it. What will you lose if you do? You're not doing it right now and nothing's happening. If you do it, either nothing will happen or something beautiful will happen.

SPEAKER_02

At least you did it. What would you tell the girls? To be afraid of something and not try it, or to Are you afraid, Andrew?

SPEAKER_03

Are you being afraid what's happening right now?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I need to I need to stop being a horse and just get it, get it out there. I I need some time. I think um what I'm gonna do is take a week off. I'm gonna go sit up in the mountains by myself for a week and just get it done. Christina, you got you got the house, right? I can just I can just disappear for a week. Do a rifle retreat.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

All right. Well, we're going to uh switch topics. One thing that you mentioned was the switch obviously being just pivotal in your career into in-house and how you, if it's on your terms, you'd never go back. So this rise of in-house creative teams is something we've been hearing from lots of uh organizations more and more. Um, something I've lived through too, uh coming from you know the brand side. So why, in your opinion, have in-house agencies become so attractive?

SPEAKER_00

I think stability and opportunity would probably be my reactive answer to that. The agency life landscape and agency life right now is very volatile. If there are amazing creators and amazing creative leaders doing wonderful things at agencies, I don't want to get that wrong at all. There's fantastic work coming out. But in a lot of places, too many places, that work is coming at a huge cost. Creators are having to work a lot harder just to keep their jobs. It was always a pretty intensive career track, but now the hours that you have to put under immense stress and immense financial pressure because too many of the agencies are now reporting to a CFO instead of a chief creative officer. It's really, really hard these days to have balance in agency life because you're always pitching, you're always pushing, you're always afraid what happens if the client puts us on project base instead of retainer. When you're in-house, you have a lot of stability, you have a lot more control over what you put out, and you also have a much bigger idea and understanding of the machine. If I may, and if it gets too long, you're welcome to cut this out. But my biggest learning was when I was at an agency, advertising was the whole thing. It was all we did. And we thought that's all our clients did. As soon as you go client side and you realize that a brand director or a brand VP or even the brand managers, the advertising component is just a short part of what they do. They're also worried about distribution, costs of good. And they, you know, all of that, advertising is just a part of it. And understanding that unlocks much better work because when you're working with a brand partner in-house, you go, okay, I now understand why they're pushing this launch date. Or I now understand why we can't make X and we have to make Y atstead because you have a holistic view of the whole business. Instead of just being in an agency going, like, oh, the client canceled this campaign, or the client can't do this work because they're afraid. There's so much nuance when you're in the trenches with your brand partners to understand why they're making certain decisions. It just gives you a happier understanding of what's going on at your job.

SPEAKER_02

And I mean, that's the value from your side coming from agency tech moving in-house. Why do you think brands have kind of jumped on this bandwagon and are so interested in building their own in-house agencies? What's the value to them?

SPEAKER_00

I I think there's there's monetary value. If we go back to the IoT um question we had earlier, now you're having to bring in six, seven agencies. The agencies are specializing even more deeply. You're paying a lot of money to just have the agency in the room. Whereas if you've got creatives in the room, you're paying to produce it well or make things happen. You don't have these big overheads, which are just agency fees on a spreadsheet. You know, just by bringing in top talent in-house, you're gonna pay for that talent, but you're not paying the the top three, four, five figure sum just to have the agency in the room, which is obviously attractive to brand owners. And it's hard for agencies because they have to keep justifying their value, they have to keep driving their prices up because they behold them to their short shareholders. So I I think that's challenge. Uh yeah, that's I mean that's that's one of the main things is is um costs, it's just cheaper.

SPEAKER_02

And I think the the other thing you spoke about, which is being embedded with the team to see everything more holistically. So, you know, they have full access, they understand the brand deeply, not just in the advertising space, but in all aspects and are are part of that. So they have a vested interest then in in in the brand doing well, right?

SPEAKER_00

They do, they do. And and they have because they have a better understanding of what's happening in the overarching brand story, they can respond better. They understand that there might be a distribution challenge. Okay, so we're gonna hold back on the media plan or this key market's performing better than another one. Let's lean in harder and do some bespoke work for that market. And you can do it way quicker and without having to go, cool, can we first have a scope of work conversation? Because this feels incremental.

SPEAKER_02

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You don't have to worry about that.

SPEAKER_02

And I think you're aligned in terms of your performance incentives. So you're not both chasing two different things with your own agenda, but you have one, hopefully, goal that you're both working towards. So that's a just from the brand side, I know that that's been valuable for us.

SPEAKER_04

For sure. 100%.

SPEAKER_02

All right. So with the rise of AI, the agency model is fundamentally changing. What would you say are the top one or two things that look very different or will continue to look very different?

SPEAKER_00

I think prompt engineering is going to become a a necessary skill set for creators, right? AI is not going anywhere and there is huge value in it. So you have to understand how to use the models or use the tools or whatever agent that you're doing. Uh, much as we had to learn how to craft the writing or we had to learn how to use Photoshop or how to use InDesign, how to use an editing program. I think prompt engineering is now a key skill for whatever you want to do. I think you get the opportunity to fail a lot faster than you had before. You can explore tracks and where you used to have to spend lots of time like mocking up or scamping or thinking, would this work? You can now try stuff and go, I wonder if this will work. You can try a pretty good version of that and go, oh yeah, there is something here. I'm going to explore it or go, whoa, that was a terrible idea. Let's leave that and try something else. So you can fail a lot faster to get to great. So I think in an understanding of how to use those tools to fail hard in in the quest for what's great is going to be important. And to do that, you have to be able to prompt. But I think also, and I'm I'm going to sound like a I'm banging the same drum as as most people, you still need a human hand on the tiller. You still need an aesthetic, you still need an idea, you still need to know are you saying the right thing? It doesn't matter how you make it. You can make it using a generative tool, you can shoot it traditionally. That doesn't matter. If you don't have a good idea or you don't have something interesting to say, it's not going to work. So you still need arbiters of taste, arbiters of creativity, someone to decide is this a good idea or not. The human factor's not going away. It's just how we make the stuff that is changing and getting a little bit faster or a little bit more affordable for brands.

SPEAKER_02

Well, thanks for teeing that up. I know Jackie wants to dive into this even further.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, I've been I've been wanting to ask you this question since we talked about you being a copywriter. You know, about generative AI, Andrew, what do you think people are getting completely wrong?

SPEAKER_00

That the machine does everything. I I think that's the biggest thing. They they think it's a a make an ad for me button. It's not. It's a Christina has this wonderful analogy uh where she talks about strapping a jet engine to a horse cart or jet engine to a wagon and why you need to use AI responsibly. Uh the one I tend to default to is AI is the difference between a bicycle and a superbike, right? You can still get where you're going on a bicycle, it's just something it takes a bit more time, it's a little bit harder. The superbike gets you faster. But you have to know how to drive. You have to understand what you're doing. So I think people don't understand that AI is not a do-it-for-me button. It's a do-it-faster button. You still need the idea, you still need the taste, you still need to be able to execute it well. You know, it gets you there faster, it can, but it's not going to do it for you.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, let's look at some buzz versus reality. What is happening right now and what's happening faster than people actually realize?

SPEAKER_00

I think I I just think the the what what the tools can do. I'm seeing across the industry, um, you know, I'm I'm lucky that in in in in my role and the peers that I have and the friends I have in the industry working on different brands or in different in-house teams, we can have these conversations. So you are aware of kind of what's being made traditionally and what's being made with AI. I think the tools take pack, for example, whether it's a pack of cookies, you know, the writing on a label of uh a condiment, whatever it is, the tool can now generate that so much faster and so much better. Before you would always have to lay on your your your your pack shark by hand because the AI just couldn't get the writing right. It was great for pictures, but the writing or the text didn't really work. Now the text is starting to come right, and you can see that um particularly if For for CPG brands um being able to use their own pack in the model so it comes out legibly. That's making things go a little bit faster. I think also the fact that stuff can be made now that doesn't look AI is important.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

There's stuff that looks like it's been shot. There's there's been a few cases where again uh peers have reached out and said, Oh, we we we've done this piece, what do you think? And I I feel like I'm pretty good at spotting what's been generated and what's not, but there's there's some stuff now where I actually couldn't tell you if we're shot traditionally or shot with AI, which is fair.

SPEAKER_03

Which which brings me to my next question. You know, there there is a lot of concern, there's some uncertainty, there's there's a little bit of worry in terms of content being taken over with all these constantly evolving gen AI tools, right? What does content creation look like in five years? You did talk about becoming prompt engineers or learning prompt engineering. What does that look like though, for the creation of content in five years' time, not just right now?

SPEAKER_00

I think again, you you are gonna have people who lean into those tools and just upload a lot of B-roll or upload a whole lot of prompts and expect the tool to make your 15, your 10, your one by one cut down, your four by five cut down. And that works not gonna perform because again, it doesn't have is it strategically sound? Is it thought through and then made? I think the the teams whether in-house or agency that still have strong strategy, strong ideation, strong review processes to get to what's good, they will still be the ones that shine. In five years' time, they're gonna be making stuff faster. But you are gonna have a lot of brands who just think, oh, if a machine makes it for me, it's gonna be great. That is gonna be even more slop that fills feeds, but the stuff that rises to the top, doesn't matter how it's made, is still the stuff that has an idea, a good strategy, a good plan. So you're gonna see that come through a lot more. That divide is gonna get bigger. Of like, here's a brand that just doesn't care that they found a tool and they do it, and their stuff's not great. It's not gonna stop.

SPEAKER_03

But if you were hiring a graduate today, right, what what would be the skills that matter most to you?

SPEAKER_00

Same skills as 20 years ago when I was hiring a graduate. I want to look at their book and go, do they have an idea? Do they have an understanding of what makes a good idea? Do they have curiosity? Are they okay with just doing something that's maybe a little bit? You know, it's it's it's I I would look for the exact same skill set that I would look for in a graduate from 20 years ago in their book. Do they have the right kind of approach to creativity that you want? And then secondary, I would ask them about the tools. And they, you know, not just can they use Photoshop, can they use InDesign, do they know how to craft a good sentence, but if they are using the tools, how do they use it and why?

SPEAKER_03

Okay. So what would you say are the skills that are becoming more commoditized? And what are the skills that are becoming more valuable?

SPEAKER_00

Prompt engineering for one is is because there's just a move to use the tools. And I don't think the tools themselves are a bad thing. Same way like guns don't kill people, people kill people. Uh AI, AI can be good, AI can be bad. It depends on who's sitting at the keyboard writing it out and who's hitting the approved check mark. Being able to use the tool is just as important as well, being able to use the new tools is part of the skill set you have to learn and grow as a as a new way of creative in the same way can can you use the other tools we have been using. I I think that is gonna be important. Is it gonna be the be all and end all? Yeah, used to be you couldn't get a job if you didn't know how to use PowerPoint or XL. Now you can't really be a creative unless you know how to use a certain suite of tools. This is just another suite of tools you have to get used to using. But again, I go back to this all the time. How are you using those tools? That's what matters.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, and my my my my most uh interesting question or favorite question of this round will AI, Andrew, make average marketers better? No. Or great marketers.

SPEAKER_00

I'm not even gonna let you finish that question. No advice exponentially better. It'll make great marketers exponentially better. It'll make average marketers worse because an average marketer will think this is a shortcut to getting something done. Shortcuts are never useful. Again, great marketers know what goes into a strong idea, goes into a strong plan, goes into a strong strategy, and they're just flexing the tools to maybe be faster in the market, be smarter with their budgets and get stuff out there. Average marketers who aren't putting in that work and think, oh, this is a shortcut, this is how I can get stuff out. You'll see that the stuff that comes out isn't that great. It's gonna make average worse and it's gonna make great exponentially greater.

SPEAKER_02

It amplifies the the good and the bad. All right. Well, we're gonna put you on the hot seat now, Andrew, and do a lightning round.

SPEAKER_04

Again. Let's do it. Let's go.

SPEAKER_03

Go ahead, Jackie. All right. Prompt engineering. Now we talked about it. Overrated or underrated or not rated enough?

SPEAKER_00

Underrated. I think prompt engineering, if you if you don't have a good prompt, you don't have a good output.

SPEAKER_02

All right. Human first or AI first?

SPEAKER_00

Human first.

SPEAKER_02

Most overused AI buzzword.

SPEAKER_00

Agentic.

SPEAKER_02

Agentic. In general.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I don't know what it is, but it sounds agentic. Let's go with it.

SPEAKER_02

Job that will disappear. In your space.

SPEAKER_00

In in my in my lifetime. Let me circle back to that. It's a it's a good question. Every time I think a job might disappear, I realize there's still value. Like proofreaders. I was like, we don't need proofreaders anymore. But you do. Yeah, you still need a proofreader. Production is a good idea.

SPEAKER_02

Do you think we still need copywriters with the right inputs?

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. In fact, I was reading a wonderful article the other day that some of the biggest employers or biggest job creators for writers right now are the likes of Anthropic and OpenAI. Because they've realized that AI copy isn't that good. They need to train their models on better writing. So they are mass hiring writers to train their models to write.

SPEAKER_02

Maybe in five years when they've done that work.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, maybe I think. But also if you look at how language evolves, the way people changes, I think there will always be a need for writers to create good writing for machines to learn all.

SPEAKER_03

So, Andrew, one job that will become more important.

SPEAKER_00

Ooh, I think a job that will become more important will be the creative leadership position, not senior creative leadership. I'm not talking like executive creative director, but I think creative director, someone who is leading the team, leading the other creators, choosing what goes forward, what doesn't. Because taste is going to become increasingly important in a world where a lot of people don't care about taste. They just want content. So I think the the role of someone who decides is this tasteful? Is this on brand or strategy, et cetera, et cetera? Should this go forward is going to become even more crucial.

SPEAKER_02

And it it it it helps that that's also your job. So let's just secure that right now.

SPEAKER_00

Cement that and exactly why I answered the question the way I did.

unknown

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02

Smart man. All right. Last last question then. What is your go-to hype song when you are amping yourself up for a big meeting or pitch or I I have two.

SPEAKER_00

One of them is uh Beast by a guy called Chris Classic. It's a very, very pump-me-up song. The other one is a Disney tune from Hercules.

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Go the distance. It's just a song about believing in yourself and getting it done. But there's a wonderful sort of like heavy metal rock version by a guy called Peyton Parrish.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, we we've heard it quite a few times in this household. And now it's one the middle child JJ is one of her favorites too. So it's great. It's being amplified.

SPEAKER_00

See, when you're the object of taste, you can spread ideas and you can spread things and get people to pick up on them.

SPEAKER_02

Well, Andrew, we want to thank you for joining us today. And we want to thank you for your support of SheCommerce. I would love to thank you for your support of the girls and me. You know, when when maybe one last question is when your daughters are adults, looking back at this time in history, what do you hope they've learned from watching how you have navigated fatherhood, work, creativity, and change?

SPEAKER_00

Tomorrow's always a new day. You can have a terrible day, but the sun's still gonna rise the next day and it gives you a fresh chance to do better. Not everyone's gonna get the day right. Sometimes you just gotta like chuck it in the bucket, put it in your rearview mirror, and just know that tomorrow's a new day. Tomorrow's a chance to do better. You can you can always pick yourself up. And hopefully they they learn that as well. That you can have an absolute terrible day. Sun will still come up. You'll be all right.

SPEAKER_02

Chuck it in the bucket. I like that. We're gonna use that.

SPEAKER_00

There's a word, there's it's chuck it in the something bucket, but uh it's a family podcast. It is.

SPEAKER_02

Well, Andrew, with every episode of Sheet Commerce, we're building a growing network of female leaders and advocates such as yourself. Will you take the pledge with us to continue paying it forward and amplifying women's voices and helping shape the future of commerce?

SPEAKER_00

I absolutely will.

SPEAKER_03

We know you will. With that, Andrew, there's just one last thing to say, and that is old brands, fierce women, one sisterhood.