What the Deal With... The Spiritual Realm?

We talk through church updates, swap games and a wedding joke, then dive into the Bible’s “unseen realm” without losing the main thing: Jesus and the gospel. We explore how Scripture describes spiritual beings, the divine council, and spiritual conflict, and we share resources to study it with wisdom and restraint. 
• Student ministry updates, Ohio Teens For Christ details and camp sign-ups 
• Rush Church online store items and ordering window 
• Fifth Sunday kids ministry plans and Easter service schedule 
• Icebreaker favorites including Euchre, Zelda and classic video games 
• Why the spiritual realm shows up in Scripture and why we shouldn’t ignore “weird” passages 
• God’s divine council and what it means for God’s kingdom language 
• Elisha’s servant and a glimpse behind the veil in 2 Kings 6 
• Daniel’s delayed message and the idea of unseen conflict 
• Paul’s framing in Ephesians 6 and the armor of God as daily posture 
• Deuteronomy 32, Babel and the concept of nations under spiritual beings 
• Psalm 82, Elohim and God judging the “gods” for injustice 
• How translation and original language study can clarify confusing passages 
If you have any questions about this, put it in our box, please. We’d love to take a look at it. 

www.rushchurch.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Rush Hour. I'm Ashley Phillips with our co-host Brittany Oglesby and Cody Cottle. This is our 21st episode.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

20th.

SPEAKER_02 0:09

20th episode. So excited. Uh, we are back at it today with a little bit of fun, a little

Welcome And Quick Catch-Up

SPEAKER_02 0:16

bit of jokes, a little bit of icebreakers, a little bit of Bible, most importantly, and just a little bit more about Rush Church and what we have going on.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Sweet.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

Yeah. Cody, what do you got going on for announcements?

SPEAKER_00 0:27

The student stuff's going well. Well, we have Ohio Teens for Christ on Easter weekend coming up, April 3rd and 4th. This is the last Sunday to sign up. So if you got anybody that seventh through 12th grade wants to go on a trip to Columbus,

Student Trips Camps And Merch

SPEAKER_00 0:41

it's a cool little conference, about 500 students, a little bit under 500 students, but good worship, good speakers, some class opportunities. And then we're in Easton, so we get to hang out at the mall, go eat some food, go to the Lego store, all that good stuff. Nice.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

That sounds fun.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

It will be fun. We've gone. This will be our third year going to Ohio Teens for Christ, I believe.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

So Hayley's kind of bummed. She's she's not, she's aged out, and this is her first year actually home. Because we're usually gone. But what happens when you become an adult?

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Adult. So yeah, student ministry is going well. Um obviously we have paintball camp signups open at housemill.org. And Erica has rise and shine girls camp signups available at house mill.org, also. So sign up for those.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

Does she like wake them up in the morning with like rise and shine?

SPEAKER_00 1:32

She usually wakes them up with the morning person song.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

So I thought you were gonna say a bullhorn.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

If you haven't heard the morning person song, you should. It's really annoying. Yeah. I don't think I ever have heard that. I don't think I've morning prison. I'm a morning prison in the morning. Anyway, so that's how it goes.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

I would hate that. Yep, it's good for her. It's super annoying.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

It's it's a good one. It gets stuck in your head all day. I'll play it for you later.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Awesome. Perfect. And Brittany, you got any announcements for us?

SPEAKER_03 2:09

No, not really. The Rush Church stores open. That can be an announcement. When does that close? April 8th.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

April 8th. What can you buy there?

SPEAKER_03 2:18

You can buy Where's it located at? At the website.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Alton Online Store. Darth. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:24

Rush Apparel is on the RushChurch.com. I think last time when we ordered, some people weren't like they wanted more polo options. And now there's a ton of polos on there. So you they range from all different prices. We have hats, we have sweatshirts, we have t-shirts, we have blankets, we have little bags. Nice.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

We have a book bag. I think I'm gonna get the book bag this time. I think so. I noticed I needed one at Superstar, and I'm like, I'm gonna wait to get the Rush Church backpack.

unknown 2:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

And it's cool. I was wearing my sweatshirt the other day while I was cleaning up my car, and like somebody saw me across the parking lot. They're like, I could spot that Rush Church sweatshirt anywhere. I'm like, that's the point.

SPEAKER_03 3:09

Yes, I like how bold they are, or how simple, but how big our writing is on it.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

You can buy quarter zip-ups, vests.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

Oh, yeah, the vest. You can get some vests, police vest.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Okay, ladies' sweater. Are these just oh, here's one for guys.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

I guess I saw the tank top was up there. Oh, we have a tank top, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

Tank top.

SPEAKER_03 3:30

Which at first, Ashley and I were the only ones with tank tops because we didn't think we made an uproar. Yeah. All the other wives were like, hold up. Why do we have to have tan line? You're gonna need those tank tops rolling up that slide this summer 90-degree weather. Fresh one eight gets a little hot. It does. It does. It's fun, it's a blast. But it's definitely a sweat equity job. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

Perfect. Well, kids ministry, this Sunday is our fifth Sunday. This is our first one of the year. So I'm taking over the backyard. The hallway's still open for those little ones with their teachers. I haven't figured out that yet. I do want to

Easter Services Sunrise Time Debate

SPEAKER_02 4:11

sometime come up with a plan for them to be able to have a break too during the fifth Sunday. But for now, we're starting with the backyard. Those teachers will not be in, they'll be in regular service, and I'm taking over. We're gonna have a lot of fun. Uh, it's gonna be Easter themed this first time. Some games uh with the kids, and it'll be different, both services. I know a lot of kids they come to first and second service, but we will have different challenges and different things going on. It's almost like a mini day of kids jam. I'm gonna split them up in in color groups. I'm gonna put paint on their faces, but don't worry, parents, like they're not gonna be a total mess. It'll be very chaotic and loud back there, but that's the whole point. We're just gonna have fun. And I'm gonna get to know these kids and yeah, the blast. So that sounds like fun. They're gonna really enjoy it. I think that's all of our announcements. Oh, Easter services.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Easter's coming. We got sunrise service on Easter morning. 7:30.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Yes, 7:30. 7:30.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Come hang out.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

Not sunrise. We call it sunrise. Close enough. It's close enough. Close enough, yeah. Sunrise is well, I'm I'm the one who said because in Florida we actually used to have sunrise. We were at the park at 5 a.m.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

I was gonna say, what time is sunrise?

SPEAKER_02 5:21

And it like by because we had to be ready by like 6 30 when the sun started coming up over the river. It's really pretty. And I was asking John, like, we're not here at Sunday. He's like, no, 7 30 is early enough.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Yeah, the sun comes up at 7 50. Right?

SPEAKER_02 5:38

No, it's up before then.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

6 50, you mean?

SPEAKER_00 5:43

No. The sun is coming up. I'm taking my kids to school. It's like 7 45 and the sun is rising over the horizon.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

I'm on a bus at 6 45 and the sun starts coming up.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

The light, not the sunrise. The light. The sunrise is when the sun is visible over the horizon.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Okay. We're gonna time it. We're gonna time it. We're gonna see when the sun comes up.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Well.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

We need to get here that when it's a little bit more than a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Just because you can see the light of the sun doesn't mean it's risen yet.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

I disagree.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Sun rises whenever it starts to become light outside?

SPEAKER_02 6:16

I think so. No, sunrise is we don't always get to see the sun if it's cloudy.

SPEAKER_03 6:24

That wasn't the argument I was gonna go out.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

The sun rises, even if we can't see it. I know. But the horizon is always there, even if it's cloudy, and the the sun comes up over the horizon, is this this official sunrise time. Look at your weather app. Sunrise this morning was like 7.50.

SPEAKER_03 6:41

How do you figure that out?

SPEAKER_00 6:43

In the weather app, it has sunrise times.

SPEAKER_03 6:47

Mine doesn't. Listen to this.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

If you know the sunrise time, please let us know.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

What time was sunrise this morning?

SPEAKER_03 7:03

Hold on, we're waiting on technology. Sunrise in Russellvania was at 7.25 a.m.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

7.25. Okay, I was off by half an hour.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

What if it's actually at 7.30 on Easter? Then that would be amazing. I'm confused how sunrise. Maybe I'm proved wrong.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

So the sunrise service is on Easter morning. No matter when the sun comes up, if it's cloudy and raining, still please show up at 7.30. All right. Even if you can't see the sun, it's still there. All right. But uh, we hope you'd join us.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

I hate that you're right on that. I know you were. I really thought it was earlier.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 7:40

So did I. Burst your bubble, but burst your bubble.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

I used to want to be a meteorologist. I know about weather.

SPEAKER_03 7:46

Okay. Yeah. That's a fun fact about you.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

That's why I took calculus and physics and all the math and science.

SPEAKER_03 7:53

And then you're like, nah, forget it.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Then I it's a whole story, but I'll tell you that another time.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

But we should have a podcast to get to know Cody. All about Cody.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Or you guys too. You're on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

I know, but yours is interesting.

unknown 8:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

I'm sure you guys are interested too.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

No.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Anyway, maybe. But yeah, sunrise service on Easter morning. Please be here. It'll be great. And then we have breakfast right after that.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

So I get the morning off. That you must like that. That's kind of nice. It feels weird. And I always stay close because just in case they need your help. They, you know, you walk into a kitchen for the first time and you're like, wait, where's the stuff? So there's gotta be somebody pointing. I'm the pointer.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

So we'll have pancakes, sausage, donuts, breakfast drinks. So like chocolate milk and orange juice and coffee and water. There you go. Come a sunrise breakfast. And then we'll have our regular services at 9:30 and 11 for Easter.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Yes. And we still have children's classes on Easter too.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Of course.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

That's exciting. Somebody was asking me that. They're like, do the kids come in with us on Easter? I'm like, no, we still have to. You can if you want to. Always can.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

But uh always have the option to do that. So cool beans. Now, Ashley, do you have anything else for us?

SPEAKER_02 9:13

I do. I have some icebreakers.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

Oh, icebreakers like the mints. I love mints.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

No, I do have mints, but they're not ice.

unknown 9:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Okay. Anyways. First icebreaker. What is your favorite game to play? Could be board

Games Icebreakers And A Wedding Joke

SPEAKER_02 9:29

game, video game, card game, outdoor game. Any game.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Brittany Go.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Do you not like games? Brittany hates games. Alright, moving on.

SPEAKER_03 9:44

I don't like games. I don't like puppies. I don't like who are you? I think I really enjoy playing Euchre. Nice. And there's another card game called golf. I like playing that because you guys play that at Super Bowl party. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Yeah. I haven't played golf in a while. The card game.

SPEAKER_03 10:05

It's fun. It's a little slower paced, isn't it? Well, yeah, but it's nice because everyone can play. Like my kids can jump in and play a nine-year-old and they're still competitive and it's still fun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Kind of a game of channels.

SPEAKER_03 10:21

That might be the worst. I still think it is when somebody sits down to play Euchre with three people that know how to play and they go, I don't know what I'm doing. Teach me. And all three are trying to teach at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Or you just like watch and pick it up. And then they're like, What's happening? Yeah. They think they get it, and they're like, I think I got it. They're like, oh no, I don't have it.

SPEAKER_03 10:41

No, but once you get it, you've got it for life.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

Are you sure? Because apparently I just haven't gotten it yet, though, because I've tried three different times. And I still don't understand it. Not a whole lot. Okay. For Euchre. Okay. Well, that's good.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

It's fun though. It's a game of partners and camaraderie.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

I like camaraderie. That's a good word.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Cody, what's your favorite game?

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Euchre came to mind. Yeah. I like that card game when it comes to those kind of games. Video game-wise, I grew up on video games. I don't play as much as I used to, but Zelda is one of my favorite games of all time. There's a game in the late 90s, Zelda, the Ocarina of Time. Best game ever made. Hands down.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

I would love to tell you that I've played that game.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

I don't I didn't expect you guys to ever hear about it.

SPEAKER_03 11:32

I've heard of it, but I've never played it. It's like a little elf.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 11:37

With right?

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 11:39

Is he a gnome or an elf?

SPEAKER_00 11:40

He's just a guy.

SPEAKER_03 11:41

Oh, it's a man. Okay. Just a short man. Doesn't he have a pointy hat?

SPEAKER_00 11:46

He's got a green hat, usually. It's kind of like an elf hat. I guess you could he looks like an elf to some people.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

Okay, then I definitely am not thinking the same thing. I thought Zelda was like a woman.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

She is. Zelda's the princess. Oh, okay. Link is the guy in the game.

SPEAKER_03 11:59

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Anyway. He's got a sword and a shield.

SPEAKER_03 12:01

He is instantly annoyed with that.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

No, no. It's fine. I don't expect people to just know all the nerdy things about it, but I've been playing it. There's like lots of them. And now Timmy's playing. He just learned how to play a little while ago. So he's going through.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

Are you like don't do that?

SPEAKER_03 12:15

Don't go there.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

That's always fun to watch your kids play games you used to play as a kid.

SPEAKER_03 12:20

Yeah. We still have a Sega. No, you do not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

It was like Sega. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

We still have a Sega. And so the kids will get on there and play Sonic. I was like, let me show you how to do it. You can bring that here this summer.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Me and my mom used to play Sonic. She liked it. I always made her be the Fox. I was like, I'm Sonic. You can be the Fox.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

Do you have the water world? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

I mean, we have a lot of games, but yes, but one of the most stressful things, you're playing Sonic and you get in the water, and you're like, dun dun dun dun dun dun dun the music speeds up and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna die. Then he drowns.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

Yeah, then he drowns. And then you start all over.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Video games back in the day where you couldn't save and you just start all the way back at the beginning. Kids don't understand these days.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Oh no. But well, for video game, I think mine was definitely like anything Sonic. Yeah. Uh Super Mario World. Not Sonic. I'm sorry. Super Mario World. That was my favorite.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Like Mario Kart?

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Well, that's new. I mean, that's newer now. My kids play that. I didn't have a video.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Nintendo 64 had Mario Kart.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

I didn't have an original.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Oh, they didn't have that on the original Nintendo, no.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

Yeah, so I was more Super Mario World. But card game, I think my whole family is obsessed with Flip 7 right now. We have not been able to get off that train.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

I took Flip 7 to the camp that I went to last week. Yeah. Nobody wanted to play.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

What?

SPEAKER_00 13:40

I tried like twice, like three times. I was like, guys, this will be fun. You'll like it, but it's seventh graders. And they were like, I don't know what this is, so I'm not playing it.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

Right. Yeah. I think it took the adults getting excited over it for our our teens, our kids to see how exciting it was.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

But awesome.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

Cool.

SPEAKER_03 13:58

Good icebreaker.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Nice job.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

All right. Are you ready for my joke of the day?

SPEAKER_03 14:04

Wait, is there a sound we need to play?

SPEAKER_00 14:06

I have no idea. Is there? Uh, do we have a sound for joke of the day?

SPEAKER_03 14:13

That was a good one.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

All right. There were two little boys sitting together in a church during a wedding ceremony. As the couple said, I do. One of the little boys leaned over to the other and asked, I wonder how many wives can a man have? The second little boy looked at his friend like he was an idiot and said, He can have 16 wives. The little boy says, How do you know that? The first little boy asked, Weren't you listening? The priest just said, four better, four worse, four richer, and four poor.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Oh my gosh. I'm gonna I do like the new joke of the day segment of the podcast. Makes me happy. That was a good one.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

I'll keep this coming.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Didn't have to use the crickets button, so that's good.

SPEAKER_03 15:04

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Oh my gosh. Well, now that uh we're gone through all that, we've gone through announcements and learned some stuff about each other and laugh together. So the last couple episodes we've done what's the deal with, and then we picked a topic. We did what's the deal with heaven. Uh that was a fun one. I got some people who seem to like that one. The last time we recorded, we did uh what's the deal with angels, and so I enjoyed doing

Why Talk About The Spiritual Realm

SPEAKER_00 15:34

that one. And so for this episode today, I think we're gonna do what's the deal with spiritual realm, kind of the supernatural parts of the Bible a little bit, which you know can be confusing, can be weird, can be like what's happening in this story. And so those are the parts of the Bible that I really enjoy. So when you see something weird or you see something that stands out and you're like, what is happening in this, or that's kind of strange, then it's usually important, I think, in some way, but we sometimes just gloss over it because it's strange, and we're like, well, deal with that later, or I'll read that again in the next time. I just want to get to the Jesus part of the Bible and then the New Testament. And so there's some in the Old Testament, there's some strange things, interesting things, and so spiritual realm, we'll just dive in a little bit, and before we get started, these are conversations that we have, and they're they're interesting, they're uh fun to have, you can learn things from these, but when we get deep into certain topics, just remember what the main thing is, and that's Jesus. And whenever I talk about things that you know you could have a different opinion on in the Bible, because there's some things that you can interpret this way, or some people have a way of reading it like this, and that's okay to disagree on some things, and there's disagreements what scripture means in certain places, but the main thing is the main thing, and the gospel cannot be debated. Jesus is the Son of God, came in human form, died on the cross, resurrected from the grave, and he is the only way to heaven. And so those are the you know, that's the gospel message, is the good news. And so with that said, we're gonna dive in and talk about some weird things, I think, today, some interesting things that I like to talk about. So, spiritual realm, we talked about heaven a little bit, we talked about angels, and we're kind of piggybacking off the angels topic a little bit uh from last week. And so, what do you guys think of spiritual realm? What comes to your mind when that phrase is mentioned? Or like supernatural parts of the Bible.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

I personally think of things that like we can't see, but I know is happening.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

I know that there's two sides in the spiritual realm. Some good, some not so good.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Okay. Two sides.

SPEAKER_03 18:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Good and evil kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 18:02

Kind of good and evil. I don't know if that's exactly how you'd put it, but one that's for God, one that's against God. Does that count?

SPEAKER_00 18:12

I like that. And so we see glimpses of spiritual realm in the Bible. We see hints of things being talked about, like angels, like, you know, other worldly things. And so the Bible's not concerned about that as a whole in this in the big story, big picture things, but it they overlap. The supernatural and the spiritual realm overlap with our physical world sometimes, and you see that in certain stories in scripture. And so it is there to talk about. It can't don't make it the be all end all, but it is fun to talk about. And so we're gonna look at a little bit of stuff that I've been studying supernatural unseen realm, I guess you could say. And I think there is supernatural stuff in the Bible, obviously, especially when it comes to Jesus himself. If Christians, our main thing that we believe is Jesus was born to a virgin named Mary, and he died and came back to life and resurrected, that's pretty supernatural.

SPEAKER_04 19:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

If I can believe that, I can believe some of the things that supernaturally the Bible talks about, I think. Yeah. Like spiritual beings, like angels, like demons, like unseen realms, a spiritual realm type thing. So to jump into this, most people think of God and then everything else, you know, angels and God, and then you can eat you can you talk about in the beginning, God assigned He made humanity, but he also has a spiritual family. All right, we got the idea of because last we talked about angels. We talked about how that's a specific type of spiritual being, messenger idea. And and so I think we have God having his human family and his spiritual family, and you have these two stories overlapping sometimes, and you see overlaps. And so the idea of this is I want to start with let's see, look at my notes. Where do I want to start for this conversation? Alright. So in the Old Testament, something really cool that I've found is something called the Divine Council. Have you guys ever heard of this before?

SPEAKER_02 20:33

Is that what I call the heavenly council? Yeah, there's different names.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Divine council, heavenly council, heavenly hosts, yeah, God surrounded by heavenly

The Divine Council And God’s Host

SPEAKER_00 20:41

hosts. We see that. And so we see in the book of Job that at the foundations of the earth were laid, as the earth was being made, and everything was being created, the heavenly hosts shouted for joy, or the sons of God shouted for joy. And so we see that God already has created some spiritual beings. There's another realm that is around before creation. And so we we have that evidence in Job. And then so yeah, I'm talking about a little bit about this idea of God has a heavenly host, and people will be like, Well, why does God need a heavenly host? Why does God need a council of spiritual beings? What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 21:23

I can tell you what I think I assume. Okay, but I assume that they are put into leadership not for God, but for his spiritual realm. Like they're like, I mean, this is what I'm completely making this up. I mean, this is what my thought is. Like, God obviously reigns over us, he reigns over the spiritual realm, but these would be like entrusted leaders, our our elders, they're elders of the spiritual realm.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Okay. So we speak of God having, you know, the heavenly kingdoms, and so you have. This idea of the kingdom of heaven, God has a kingdom, and so even in that part, he has you know hosts that surround him, they're his his counsel. But my question was, why does he need one?

SPEAKER_03 22:15

Probably the same reason that we need one. I mean, what we were just reading about in the Old Testament, like God doesn't go to 2,000 people in the Old Testament and tell them all the same thing, he tells one, and then that is that person is put in charge to tell everyone else? That makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

I mean, okay, maybe maybe I think that's what he uses his counsel for sometimes, and we'll see a cool story that I'll bring up in a minute.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

But what does the word counsel even mean? Like when you think of counsel?

SPEAKER_00 22:46

I think of like a council of things to make decisions.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Yeah, that's advice. Does God like does but does God need the advice of others?

SPEAKER_00 22:54

What does God need?

SPEAKER_02 22:56

God needs nothing.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

God needs nothing, He doesn't need a divine counsel, He doesn't need humanity, He doesn't need a creation. He is God all on His own all the time. So the first thing that you realize when you talk about this is God doesn't need these things. This is a necessity. God's not like dependent on something else. He wants one. He wants relationship with us, he wants relationship with, you know, his heavenly hosts that are with him. And so that's the first thing to understand is that God doesn't need any of this stuff, but he seems to want it. And so when I say, well, why does God need this? He doesn't need it. Apparently, he wants it because he made it. And he's got this idea of roles for them to play, just like we have roles to play in this creation. Cool thing, you might have heard about this one. You ever heard of Elijah? Elisha, sorry, there's a Lijah, and there's Elijah. Elisha in 2 Kings chapter 6, he's there's a there's they're surrounded, there's a battle happening, and

Elisha’s Servant Sees The Unseen

SPEAKER_00 23:58

they look like they're outnumbered, and his servant is like freaking out. He's like, We're we're outnumbered. They're like, you know, what are we gonna do? And Elisha says, he says a prayer, and he's like, God open his eyes so that he may see. And then he looks out and he sees the servant's eyes are open, and he looks out and he sees fire fired chariots surrounding the hills around the town, and it's like, oh, we're not alone. There's these other things that are happening that I can't see, but they're always there. And so the Bible speaks as if the unseen realm and the spiritual things are real and they're they're they're happening around us, even if we can't see it. So that's one example. And then there's an one more example that's a really cool one that I go to. It's in 2 Kings 22, I believe. Hold on. 2 Kings 22. Where is that at? See the first one.

SPEAKER_03 24:50

Is this the one that has to do with Michael?

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Michael? His name there's a is it Michael? There's a prophet named uh Micaiah. Oh, okay. It's in 1 Kings 22 or 2 Kings 22. I can't find it right now, but he's a prophet, and he is looking and he's he's he says he sees God sitting amongst his heavenly host, amongst his council in the spiritual world. And God's having a conversation with the divine host, and he's like, What are we gonna do about this uh evil king that's going around, King Ahab? And so God takes suggestions from his divine council and they they bring up different things. Let's do this, let's do this, and and one of them comes up with the idea of a way to get rid of the king, and God's like, I like that idea, let's do that. And then he sends, you know, down, and and so that's what God's prophet Micaiah sees and tells us. And so this idea of God having a council, God talking to them. And so that's in kings. That's a good example that I go to of like, well, look, God doesn't need any things, but he's still using them as if he would, like a like a king. He's a king, God's king, and he has his heavenly courts and his council, and they talk, and ultimately it's God's decision, right? Ultimately, God decides what to do, but he allows input, just like we're allowed to request things from God, we're allowed to do things. Ultimately, it's all in God's hands, but he partners with us and he he has the same spiritual family that he partners with in the unseen realm. And so, any questions so far? Is that interesting to you? Have you ever heard the those two stories before?

SPEAKER_03 26:27

Yeah, I think so. I think there's another story that I was thinking of.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 26:34

Where like no, I'm gonna be very vague. So good luck figuring this out. Okay, so the angel shows up and he's like, sorry, I would have been here earlier, but I was in battle.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Yeah, we talked about it a little bit last time with angels. Yeah, Michael shows up to Daniel. Yes, and he's like, Took me three weeks to make it here to you, but I'm finally here because I was fighting the prince of Persia and this idea of principalities and powers that we can't see. And so Paul talks about this too. Paul talks about what? Who is our enemy? Our enemy is

Daniel’s Delay And Unseen Warfare

SPEAKER_00 27:10

not flesh and blood, but what I have it right here. Oh, you do?

SPEAKER_02 27:12

I do. Wow. Ephesians, yep, chapter six, verse twelve. Says, for we are not fighting against flesh and blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

There you go. So even Paul in the New Testament talks about these things, talks about things unseen, things that are happening around us all the time that we can't really see. So the spiritual realm, uh, we think of like it as a remote place far away, like a thing. But I think it's it's around us and it's like there's a veil over it, so we can't see it all the time. Yeah, you like pull back the curtains.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

I think if humans saw it, we would panic.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Yeah, most of the time. Panic. And so you'd see the things that are going on, and you see glimpses of it in different stories and everything. We're allowed to see parts of it. And it over the stories overlap sometimes. But the Bible's main focus is God, it's the story of humans relating to God. And it's not concerned about the whole what's happening in the spiritual realm all that often, but sometimes it overlaps. Sometimes it it happens to shine or show through a little bit through the veil or through the curtain, and you're like, oh, what was that? And then the Bible is this doesn't so my whole thing is you know, where the Bible is quiet about things, or the Bible is not too detailed about things, we shouldn't be loud about those, or we shouldn't like you know, go all in on these things that we don't know that much about. So we can know a little bit, we can know here and there, like the stories that I told you in Kings and things like that. And then Paul he reminds us that our we're not fighting humans, we're not fighting that's not our main enemy. It's not another human being, but powers, principalities, rulers in the unseen world. Yeah. So that's pretty interesting to me.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Does it talk about how to fight it?

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Yeah, the armor of God. He talks about that right after. Okay. And it's more of a defense, it's not it's more of a protect yourselves from these things when you have these things, salvation, truth, peace, all these different things that we get through Christ. Paul goes on to talk about the armor of God. It's a daily mental and spiritual posture that you take with you through life. It's not just about Sunday, it's not just about a Bible study here and there, it's about a way of life, the armor of God. Put it on and go through life with it because there's, you know, attacks. There's different things that will try to draw us away from God. And that's what he's talking about. So our jobs aren't really to fight that battle, but we need to know it's there, and we need to be able to be on the defense, is what most of those things are. He does say we have a sword. What's the sword?

SPEAKER_02 29:57

The word.

Armor Of God As Daily Defense

SPEAKER_00 29:58

The word of God. So we just our our our offense is to know what God's truth is, to know what he says. If we know that, then you see in the Old Testament, like Eve talking to the serpent, he twists the the words of God, and she falls into that temptation.

SPEAKER_04 30:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

If we know the word, we know who God is, we know what he's all about, that's our offense. That's how we can like a preemptive strike kind of thing in this idea of armor in battle. Know who God is. Be in his word, trust him. That's the offense.

SPEAKER_02 30:34

That's when I see, whenever like I feel like I'm getting almost like spiritually attacked, not like by darkness, but like my mind, you know. Let's say my mind, I'm getting distracted, or I'm getting, you know, I'm starting to think these different things about myself. That's when I am when I know the scripture, when I'm saying, nope, this is what God says right here in this word, this is the truth. That's when my mindset is able to be changed, is by being able to call it out right then and there.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Yeah. That's good.

unknown 31:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

You guys, the armor of God passage. I guess we you know all that in Ephesians chapter six. So those are good. What was I talking about before? Oh, Paul talks about the unseen world, and so he knows about it. It's it's mentioned on and off through scripture. The divine council is mentioned, the council of God, the heavenly hosts, a few times throughout the Old Testament. You can see in Isaiah's visions where he sees God and he's surrounded by the thrones of uh you got this this whole spiritual realm is bigger and more complex than people think. It's not just God and a couple angels, all right? It's it's that the idea of it's a whole working kingdom on its own. So I like the idea of God has his family in the spiritual realm, and he also has his human family. And those stories kind of overlap in a few places on and off. To really understand that makes sense of some of the old testament weird stories, some of the old test, some of the the the the little, even in the new testament, some weird places where it talks about angels and things like this. It's not to be uh highly, I mean, we can't go overboard and be obsessed with this kind of stuff. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_04 32:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

But it does help. I think it helps knowing some of these things and putting the bigger picture of the story of the Bible together. Helps me understand confusing parts and helps me in in in different ways. And so I see that. And then so talking about his spiritual family, talking about the idea of heavenly host and these different things. I do want to mention a couple things that are really interesting to me and maybe will change the way you see scripture a little bit. And and so maybe you've never heard this kind of stuff before, and I and I want to be a little careful when I go into this topic. But um, most people think God, and then everything else, and in the beginning of the Bible, I think we see God assign

Babel Deuteronomy 32 And Nations

SPEAKER_00 33:12

members of his household to govern the nations of the Old Testament, of his spiritual realm. I think he puts other spiritual beings in charge of some of these nations in the Old Testament. I get that from Deuteronomy 32, 8 and 9, and explains that when God divided the nations at the Tower of Babel, he set the boundaries of the people groups and the boundaries of the nations to the number of the sons of God or the number of the angels. All right. Following?

SPEAKER_04 33:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

So God scatters his people. God scatters his people at Babel, and they spread out all over these places. And this is another rebellion because they were supposed to spread out to begin with. They were supposed to go out and cover the world and be representatives of God, and now here they are coming together at this one place, trying to build a tower, trying to stay in one place, trying to, you know, do things their own way, ignoring God's commands. And so God gets fed up with them, the Tower of Babel, and He's like, fine, I'll just gonna scatter you everywhere. And he confuses their languages, they scatter everywhere. And then in Deuteronomy 32, you can see where God says, and as for me, my portion, my inheritance of these groups will be Israel. He takes a group of people for himself and gives the rest to members of his heavenly family, these spiritual beings. All right, and these become the gods of the nations in the Old Testament that we read about, the gods of Egypt, the gods of the Canaanites, and you have these spiritual powers put in charge. God says, I'm gonna delegate, I'm putting my other people in charge of these. I'm gonna take Israel for myself. If the if humanity doesn't want me, I'm just gonna give them different things, but I'm gonna keep one for myself. Jacob is my portion, he says. Israel is my portion. And I think he sets this up as he trusts his counsel, and they're gonna lead the people well, but something goes wrong, and they rebel and they take on worship for themselves, and they do things their own way, and you see that in the in these ideas of the gods, the lowercase G gods in the Old Testament. They're not God.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

So these are the gods that that the other people start worshiping.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

And they were supposed to lead people well, they were supposed to lead the nations how God would lead the nations. God was like, you know, you're my ambassadors, go lead these nations. I'm gonna take this one for myself, since humanity doesn't want to listen. And so he takes them, and that's where we get this idea of the gods of the other nations. And I see that from Deuteronomy 32, particularly because it says when God scattered the nations, he delegated them to the number of the sons of God, which is always a term for spiritual beings in the Old Testament, every single time. And so we see that, and then we see in Psalm 82. Psalm 82 has a little section about about this same topic. All right. I had I had it pulled up, but I lost it, so Psalm 82.

Psalm 82 And Judgment Of The Gods

SPEAKER_00 36:17

I'll just read it for you. It says this God has taken his place in the divine council, in the midst of the gods, he holds judgment. How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Give justice to the weak and to the fatherless, maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute, rescue the weak and the needy, deliver them from the hand of the wicked. They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness, all the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said, You are gods, sons of the most high, all of you. Nevertheless, like men, you shall die and fall like any prince. Arise, O God, judge the earth, for you shall inherit all the nations. God's judging the gods of the nations in this passage. He says he's standing in his divine council, he's standing amongst the gods. Now don't get don't get me wrong. Little G gods freaks people out sometimes. But God is creator of all these spiritual beings. He made all of them. He is superior to every spiritual being. He is the head, he is Yahweh in the Old Testament, and none is like him. There is no one beside him. There's no one like him. He is unique. He created all these things, his spiritual family and his human family. But now we see him in this passage. It says, you know, you I I I trusted you. You've judged the wrongly. You've let wickedness take over. And for that, in the end, he says, You are gods, sons of the most high, all of you. Nevertheless, like men, you shall die and fall like any prince. To me, it's pretty clear he's talking to spiritual beings.

SPEAKER_02 37:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

Don't you think?

SPEAKER_02 37:55

So And I kind of wondered, like I I had thought in my mind, I'm like, I wonder if these get treated anything like humans, you know, these gods. And this right here says, You did wrong, now you're gonna die, just like a human.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

Yes, just like a mortal, you know, just like men, you will you'll die. And so there's a judgment here. There's a, you know, you were supposed to do good things, but you didn't. And so there's a rebellion there again from the spiritual world that kind of overlaps in our world.

SPEAKER_03 38:25

I think that when, like when you just said, like, when we use the word God for something that is other than our God, it kind of freaks people out. But I think that we have to remember, like, our that's what we can understand as humans.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

Like, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're also the English word God is not, it doesn't do us any favors.

SPEAKER_03 38:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

In Hebrew, Elohim. Okay, that's the Hebrew word used when we see God or lowercase gods. It's the same word. Yeah, Elohim means it's it's a category. Elohim is a spiritual being, right? And so God, our God, the God of Christianity, is Elohim of all Elohim. He is the God of gods, he is above all of He made all of them, He's the creator, and so He is set apart on a level on his own. Now, that doesn't mean he's you know, there's other spiritual beings.

SPEAKER_04 39:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

That can't be denied. We have talk of angels, we have talk of all these spiritual things, and so but the word English word God doesn't do us any favors. We just translate that word into God or God's.

SPEAKER_03 39:31

So I think that that stays true through a lot of scripture, but like there's a lot of words that's like, well, yeah, there's not a good translation for this.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

But that's what we're doing. That's just how it is. When we take it from its original language, there's not going to be a you can get as close as you can in our in our words that we use. But yeah, so it's always interesting to kind of do a a study on like, well, what did this word what's the what's what's some other things that it could have you know translated to, or what's the the idea behind it? And sometimes we use English words, and I'm not saying that it's you you still get the message of the Bible, right? You still get Jesus, you still get all that things and all these translations that we have, but to to be able to have the Hebrew and have the Greek and and know what those are sometimes, it helps a lot in certain cases with certain words. Elohim is one of those. Elohim is not just another name for God, it is a category of Elohim means spiritual being, not human, you know. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_04 40:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

So when you have in Psalm 82, you have God has taken his place in the divine council in the midst of the gods, he holds judgment. That word there is well, Elohim can be singular or plural. It's like sheep in our English language. There's one sheep or there's tons of sheep.

Elohim As A Category Word

SPEAKER_00 40:50

It depends on the words around it. Right. Devi context. That sheep over there, or those sheep over there. You know, same word, but so we have God, Elohim, as singular in the first one, and then later on as plural. So God stands amongst the gods. It's Elohim stands amongst the Elohim. And so pretty little deep here, real quick, but a little Hebrew Bible lesson for you. But I will say, if you're interested in this topic, and we're just going, I'm just going over surface level stuff right here. It might seem deep, but it's pretty interesting. And people will disagree with some of this, and and that's what I meant. Like sometimes people didn't can you can disagree on this. If it sounds too much, then that's fine. But for me, it puts pieces together in the whole biblical story. And then you have at the end here you have, arise, O God, judge the earth, for you shall inherit all the nations. God's gonna take his nations back, and he does that through Jesus. You see in the New Testament, Jesus says, All authority has been given to me through all the nations. And you're like, Oh, now Jesus is in control of all the nations, God's taken back what was rightfully his to begin with through Christ.

SPEAKER_04 41:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Really interesting. I like it a lot. Uh, it can freak people out a little bit, but and I'm not saying all the named gods in the old testament like Baal and Molech, I'm not saying that they're those names. I'm saying there's forces behind those names that are real. Right. And there's there's there was a whole nother world of a spiritual world that we we we give hints at in scripture. So um, but I was gonna say if you're interested in this, the Bible project is good. They have a whole video series on this. You can go to the Divine Council or the Spiritual Realm video series at Bibleproject.com where you can get the app, and they'll go into a little bit more detail. And I trust those guys, I think it's a cool resource

Resources Questions And Wrap-Up Prayer

SPEAKER_00 42:42

to use. And there's also they have a whole podcast on this too. I also have a book called Supernatural. I think you have it right now. I do, yeah. And so if you have any questions, you can let us know. But any more questions because we've already done 45 minutes. Have we really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:57

This is this is a fun topic.

SPEAKER_00 43:01

Yeah, let's do. I mean, let's wrap this up. But if we want to go a little bit longer, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:05

If you have any questions about this, put it in our box, please. We'd love to take a look at it.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

So do you guys have questions right now? Like in this moment. Well or something you want to add?

SPEAKER_03 43:15

I think that what we've already gone through helps a lot. I think that when I first started learning about the spiritual realm, I just assumed that they were perfect, which I think we kind of talked about last time. But now knowing that they have free will and can screw up just like we do, I don't know. It's almost comforting.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

But like they're created beings, they're created things. God made them and he doesn't make robots, he makes things that have the ability to choose him and not choose him. Same for us, same for the other spiritual, I mean, same for the spiritual realm. So it's interesting. We didn't really get into like the We got into a little bit of how the gods of nations rebelled and they've kind of fallen off and now they're being judged. But there's uh some other stuff that happens that we might get into next time.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

Does it talk about how they rebel, what they rebel with?

SPEAKER_00 44:12

Well, I think the idea is that in that Psalm 82, is he saying you were supposed to lead these nations like I would have led them, right? And you took the worship for yourself. Okay. And you became greedy and you became power hungry, and you've just, you know, look at the nations. They're terrible. They're doing terrible things, not what I had intended, is what God's saying.

SPEAKER_03 44:32

Well, I'm assuming that they were there to rule over the nations, but yet they shouldn't even have known who they were. Like if I was a spiritual being ruling over this nation, should they even have known who I was? Or should everything just be directing? I'm just directing their stuff.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

I'm directing, I'm refosed to be reflecting back to Yahweh, reflecting back to God of Gods.

SPEAKER_03 44:55

I just mean I could be wrong, but I just feel like if they even knew who I was, that's a no. Right?

unknown 45:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 45:02

I don't know. That can confuse people.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

I like that. I haven't really thought about it that way, but that's that was the job when God scattered everybody and he bounded made the boundaries according to the angels, according to the spiritual beings, he put in charge. That's always the idea. His creation is supposed to reflect things back to him, and they did not do that. And we do not do that sometimes. And so you see that in the old testament of yeah, that's why two sides of the same coin kind of thing. Yeah, there's a human rebellion going on, there's also a spiritual rebellion going on. That's why Paul says there's powers at work who are rebellious against the creator. You get this kind of like I said, the main Bible story is about God and humans, but overlap sometimes and in a big way. And if you see that, some things can start to make more sense too. So at least for me, they did. So I just want to share that what I've learned, and it's okay if you disagree with me. But I gave you resources that you can go look some of that stuff up and and see.

SPEAKER_02 45:56

So I think it's good.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

Okay. Cool. Well, we'll decide what we're gonna talk about next time. We might do part two of this episode. I have some other things I want to talk about, but we've already gone too long. Sad day. All right, let's pray. God, thank you so much for this day. Thanks for pretty and Ashley, these conversations that we can have and just talk about your word, talk about scripture, ask questions and learn and grow. And I I I just love your word. I love learning, I love looking in into what you have left for us in scripture. And so I ask that you be with all the ones listening, people that are going through struggles right now, people that are going through difficult times. I know a lot of things are heavy on our hearts. I just ask that you are a comfort, comforter, like you say you are, and that you bring healing, you bring peace, even when we don't understand why things happen. Help us to trust you, help us to keep reflecting back to you with our lives. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. All right. Well, that's it for this episode. We'll see you next time on rush hour.