Escalation, Ebola and Extremism: Can anyone keep up?

The world is moving so quickly it is becoming harder to know where to look first. Iran remains on edge around the Strait of Hormuz. Ebola is spreading through one of the DRC’s most militarized regions. And attacks on places of worship are exposing the messy overlap between extremism, antisemitism, misogyny, and political violence.

In this episode of Conflicts of Interest, Professor Clionadh Raleigh and Bron Mills try to make sense of a week where every crisis seems to be accelerating at once — from Iran’s strategic calculus and escalation risk, to the challenge of containing disease in conflict zones, and the growing pressure on free speech from Germany to the UK.

Also on the radar: Russia’s shadow fleet, and why sanctions-busting tankers are becoming part of the hybrid warfare conversation.

For more conversations like this, subscribe to Conflicts of Interest and watch the full episode on YouTube. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

The other thing I get touchy about as a journalist that's come from a place with a news editor team and about 400 people checking everything is that no one is holding these people to account and listening to various views getting more and more extreme with absolutely not a brain cell between them.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

You know, whether it's about how to parent or anti-Semitism, even letting the village idiot have platform for them to spout these things off can have real world consequences. They're not hearing counters to it, or this person's a moron, don't listen to them. They're ingesting it and thinking that it makes sense of their world enough for them to be encouraged into violence.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Because even someone with extreme views who knows what they're talking about wouldn't mix anti-Semitism, anti-women, and land on a mosque attack. Conflicts of interest brought to you by ACLED.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Hello everybody and welcome again to Conflicts of Interest. I'm Clean O'Raley, and I'm here happily with Braun.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

And it's been a while. It has been a while. There's been quite a lot, though, that's happened since you and I last spoke, hasn't there? So, like today, I've been reading so much about what's going on in Cuba and the indictment of Castro. Then Russia and China have been having chats, and I've been really enjoying the conversations around the the body language of the two and seeing trying to guess what they were talking about. Israel almost won Eurovision, and presumably the Iranian football team are still, you know, getting their stretches in ahead of the World Cup that I haven't heard that they're not a part of.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

I I had heard some rumors about that, but I must say the body language stuff, I just like these are just three incredibly socially awkward men. So how they act with each other is, I think, a mystery in and of itself. But I do think that when I awoke to the charges against Raul Castro, who must be, what, 89 now? Something like that? His 90s. Well, I found it interesting because it's a real Maduro move. So I would imagine he's like, oh God, I wonder. What I found really interesting about just the much more recent news is that former Iranian president Ahmadinejad has been outed, if you will, as the I don't want to say puppet, but the let's just say the favored replacement for the Ayatollah in the pre-attack planning. And I found it really interesting because I don't believe it for a second, right? And I just think that Ahmadinejad must be, let's say, causing the same amount of trouble he did as president, which was a lot. And basically they're trying to delegitimize him in the light of his other IRGC friends. But, you know, what do I know?

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Well, I think, you know, quite a lot. I think you need to give yourself some credit there, because otherwise, you know, why are people listening to us have a chat? On Iran, I love the concept of a Maduro move. I think that we should trademark that. On Iran, though, I think that's really interesting with the questions that are uh kind of coming out around that and the non-use of the word puppet there. But the Supreme Leader's order now saying that they're gonna keep uranium inside Iran. Surely that's just gonna blow up any concept of these peace talks, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:08

I think it would be a stretch to call them peace talks. Basically, no one has moved at all except for trying to placate allies or gain allies. So you saw a move by Iran last week in response to Trump's trip to China to try to get closer to China with certain moves. You saw a threatened attack last Tuesday come to nothing, and Trump claimed it was because the Gulf states are trying some diplomacy. But from what I understand, it was actually because the Gulf states were incredibly reluctant to let another round of this go without promises about their own security, which apparently they got. That might have actually been two weeks ago now. But I think this underlies the fact that no one's made any diplomatic moves of any size or direction that is going to change the dimensions of this conflict at the moment, which is effectively that the Strait of Hormuz is still largely hijacked by the indecision to do something regarding opening it on one side or the other. Iran is now comfortably under the impression that they have bested the US and Israel. Israel's been tied up with their election drama, but still trying to undermine any sort of longer-term peace. What I was reading recently out of the Israeli press is people are saying, well, no deal is better than a bad deal, which indicates that they are also in support of restarting conflict at this moment. But then you, you know, you get reports from the New York Times saying that really the missiles have not been degraded in Iran to any degree close to what the US has claimed. And it's like nothing has changed. It's the exact same variables in the exact same place and still no answer.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

I think you can see that in what's being said. Obviously, the different papers with the different sources are going to have their different stance on it. And of course, anyone on the president's side will be saying, Yeah, you know, we've done some real damage here and we're definitely winning, but not everyone can be a winner as they're claiming. And then there was a piece I was looking at the other day about um three tankers that were going to try and get through the strait. And that was around the same time as a nuclear site in UAE, and they were refusing to let the news out about who they thought was behind it. What is the kind of dynamic? If you had to summarize the dynamic right now, as above and beyond the stalemate that is the actual involved parties. What about everyone else?

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Well, I think they're trying to reposition themselves in the Gulf about what their future role is going to be. UAE has been the one that Iran has hit the most out of the Gulf. UAE is kind of, you know, it's the badly behaved Gulf state for sure, but it is trying to kind of use this position to say, well, we don't really feel like there's any sort of checks on our behavior anymore, if there ever were. You know, it's quite close to Israel. It's starting, I think, to now attack Iran itself in different engagements. And my hoped for kind of rapprochement between Saudi Arabia and UAE doesn't look like it's happening really at all. Although Saudi Arabia is trying to keep the lid on something much more severe as a result of this conflict or stage one and whatever stage two is going to involve. And they're doing so by looking hesitant. But I think certainly with engagements between Pakistan, Iran, and the US to try to find a way out of this. But I think that they're aware, as with all the Gulf states are, that they cannot leave an emboldened Iran, which is, I mean, we must have said it on this podcast about 10 times. So I think that they're trying to get a a true indication of what cost this is going to take, both in the immediate term, but also what the kind of much more strong security stance is going to extract from them and the larger Gulf in the future. And if you had to put a timeline on who moves next. I really I keep on saying it's going to be each weekend. I mean, I was really sure it was going to be, was it two weekends ago? And apparently they were ready, but you know, different press suggests that there's quite a lot of movement over Jerusalem getting prepared. So I don't think that Donald Trump wanted it to happen during his China visit. So I would say that like trying to guess if it's going to be this weekend or next week, I think it's definitely going to happen. I think there's going to be another layer of active conflict. And it's just a matter of probably domestic decisions on the part of the states. Now that they've got the other things lined up, they can base in Saudi Arabia. They've got UAE trying to take a much more aggressive stance. It's just a matter of, I would say, days.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

So that's the Middle East carnage. Moving over to Africa then, because I've been having a look this morning at some comments that the team have made around DRC and the Ebola outbreak there. What is the significance of the outbreak on the community that that it's hit in that particularly militarized corner?

SPEAKER_01 7:57

I'm not going to make light of this, but I will say that Bertie has just gone on a trip and I was like, Don't touch any dead bodies. And she was like, What in the name of God would I be touching any dead bodies for? But this is just like a word of warning for everybody. Ebola is very contagious at the point of death and onwards. That's where it's most contagious. So don't touch any dead bodies. The Ebola outbreak has come up in Congo, as it often does. It's a strain of Ebola that is quite old. I'm not going to say ancient, but it's old, which means that it's not actually part of the sequence that the very recent vaccine covers. So it's quite serious in that way. There's been an outbreak in Ituri, which is one of the most militarized corners of the DRC. It's kind of in the northeast, it borders Uganda. It like the other areas of Congo that it's threatening to seep into, is kind of actively controlled by a non-state armed group. In in this case, actually, it's a kind of combination, right? But the Mombasa territory alone accounts for where over 40% of this particular group that I'm going to focus on at the moment called ADF violence is in the province. And so the ADF is kind of like the ISIS-affiliated gang in Congo. Like they really want to be ISIS, and ISIS, I think, is kind of on a whatever perspective on ADF. But other important groups that have control over this area, which make it very difficult to treat what sounds like a pretty rampant drain, is Padeka, which is the Cooperative for Development of Congo. These are kind of a loose coalition of predominantly Lendu militias. And the Lendu militias have been kind of reoccurring as a problem specifically in this region of Ituri now for decades. There's also the Convention for Popular Revolution, the CRP, which I must say sounds a bit like some sort of a management training exercise. This rebel movement was formed under Thomas Ubanga, who's Ugandan. He's convicted war criminal, etc. These groups are claiming to defend local communities inside Ichuru, in particular this overall region. Some notes that I had here is that the wider security environment raises concerns about the outbreak spreading into areas that, of course, have the ADF operational there. They sometimes are known by their IAS name Iska, which is the Central Africa province. The Congolese Ministry for Health is just as effective as you would assume the Congolese Ministry for Health is. So there has been quite a lot of trouble trying to make sure that they can get help to people who are deep within this territory. And the activity of these militias, ADF, etc., are making a lot of that extremely difficult. In previous Ebola outbreaks, what often helps is actually social messaging, sociologists to kind of explain to people how to deal with burials for people who have hemorrhagic fevers. And again, you're not supposed to touch any dead bodies, but there's a whole system that has to be set up. It's incredibly organized, but there's very little hope for that in this region, which is why people are so concerned about it.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

And so as far as the direct impact then on that community and this story maybe getting lost a little bit in the rest of the carnage in the world, what is the kind of gravity for that for people in the area?

SPEAKER_01 11:08

So I mean they have a lot of militant activity. It's Congo, so they have a huge amount of population displacement and movement, which makes, of course, contagion worse. And they just have very little hope of getting sufficient medical care or information about this threat. And it's a hellish situation. It's possibly one of the worst combinations you could imagine for an outbreak that is as severe as this.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

So as we were saying, there is no area of the world that has gone quiet at the moment. And so I also wanted to touch on the states a little bit because of the attack on the mosque earlier this week where those three people were killed. The team at ACL started having a look into some of the events that are around sites of worship across the states and to see how much of a theme that was. And some of the information that we got back was quite interesting. And I don't think the numbers were quite as high as I maybe expected them to be, but these are the ones that, you know, we are 100% sure associated with. And I wondered what you had kind of observed. I know that you've always been kind of across what's going on in the States, especially when it comes to kind of lone wolf attacks that happen over the years. I wonder whether you had observed any kind of trends.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

I certainly have. You know, we've been working on a piece about antisemitism, which is of course a growing threat across the world. And and I just want to very quickly note about this horrific situation that happened in the Islamic center, which is that when people have been reading through the statements of those boys, basically, who took these awful actions, they blame the Jews, which is a really interesting tie-in to what I'm just about to talk about now, and women. So again, it's kind of a classic lone wolf situation in the States whereby pretty severe social and mental illness makes its way into a violent act. And the themes of the age, you know, whether it's incels or anti-Semitism or misogyny or anti-Trump or whatever the case, they make their way into these events. And there's not a lot of sense to be extracted from trying to believe that these were organized acts, but they were, I always say in the states, they're allowed to happen because all of the features that create the context in which these very violent murders can occur are constantly available to people. And so, so yes, they're going to happen. There are some interesting and of course kind of harrowing information there about sites of worship, of course, which are plentiful in the state. They range quite a bit. There's been 60 events recently since 2020 that took place in a church, 32 in Jewish temples or synagogues, 21 in mosques, three and five and one in satanic centers, Buddhist centers, all the rest of it's a much smaller. They're obviously concentrated. But for example, saying 60 events took place in a church, meaning that there's kind of an anti-Christian interpretation of this, would be the wrong one, right? 60 events are happening in a church, it's it's because people gather in churches. And many people who are committed to engaging in mass murder want to go to malls or to places of work where they have been, or to churches. But we have been working a lot on some of the patterns that we've seen amongst, I guess what we would call the spectrum from anti-Israel protests, which are often kind of pro-Palestine, to anti-Zionism, to anti-Semitism, and recognizing that this spectrum can have a certain degree of overlap. But at Accold, because we code events, we are able to really emphasize which of these types of events are our aberrations to each other and how they're feeding off of each other. So there's never ever going to be as many anti-Semitic events as there are protests, because anti-Semitism is often threats and heightened risks and harassment rather than out and out attacks, especially facial attacks. So the number of events is not really giving enough to the rising anti-Semitism we see in on almost all corners, whether it's media, in politics, in casual conversation, in biases that people have. And I was thinking about it this morning, and I think that, especially amongst young Americans, you had the George Floyd social justice protests of 2020, and that was just so prolific, right? They were so incredibly active during that period. And then there was a little bit of a lull in about 2022 to 2023, and then of course Hamas attacked the Israeli communities on the border on October 7th. And that led to then this surge in pro-Palestine protests after that, and increasingly anti-Israel protests. And it's interesting because I think that it's the same people, it's the same impetus, but it's more that they want to engage in what they believe to be great injustices rather than they have any real information about the situation in Palestine, Hamas, Israel, et cetera.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

And it's interesting when you talk about the kind of blending of themes. It's something that you and I have spoken about before, isn't it? When people are kind of attributing their own definition or definitions are kind of changing and being moulded by various groups or communities or in the media as well, like when genocide gets thrown around. And so that's interesting in and of itself. We spoke about that Manosphere documentary before, didn't we? And you kind of believe, okay, this is this group of people's set of beliefs, and you're kind of understanding that as you go along. And then at the end, the last guy just starts talking about Islam and Judaism and it and just kind of adding religion into the mix. And it feels like, again, you wouldn't be able to kind of stick him with a label saying anything that he does is this because he's blending a bit of, you know, anti-anti-women, anti-this, and coming up with this mix. So when you talk about those notions and how far-reaching they are, what definitions are you giving to the kind of different levels?

SPEAKER_01 17:02

That's a we were trying to look into our categories and they were designed to distinguish between, of course, demonstrations and violence. But I also want to mention that generally what we had were a tremendous number of protests, so 68,742 events, protests and violence, across 151 countries from January 2022 to this month, earlier this month. That amount of time I was trying to get at how these issues were salient before the Hamas attack on October 7th. But what we tried to do was break it down, right? So we don't consider threats, harassment, or hate speech, all of which we know have increased quite drastically. Anti-Israel events are protests against what Israel does, right? Its military operations, occupations, its government policies. They are directed at a state and its actions. They should be no different than if you were against US campaigns in Iran, etc. But they constitute, along with the pro-Palestinian version of this, because they're often linked, because protests never have one particular cause. They often have a few. They constitute the overwhelming majority of activity in the data set at about like 88%, right? So tremendous amount, relatively peaceful protests coded with this type of engagement. But anti-Zionist events go a bit further. They oppose what Israel is, this political project for Jewish national self-determination. And that looks as if it's actually concentrated. These kind of anti-normalization protests are often concentrated in Morocco and Bahrain. And they are designed to kind of say this this country shouldn't exist, so we shouldn't be normalizing engagements with them. And that's a very kind of intra gulf. It's also kind of an intra-Arab state issue, which is that, like, how are we going to deal with this state in our midst? I will say though that there's the line between anti-Israel and anti-Zionism is incredibly blurred, right? Incredibly so. I do want to mention though, very specifically, that anti-Semitic events are again a bit different. They target Jewish people, Jewish communities, Jewish institutions because they are Jewish, regardless of any connection to Israel or its policies. Let me give you an example. So pro-Palestinian marches outside of a government building can be considered anti-Israel pro-Palestinian. A rally declaring Zionism illegitimate is an anti-Zionist engagement. The attempted murder of two Jewish men in London because they are Jewish is anti-Semitic. And what we want, of course, is for all of these particular types of events to be contained within their correct area, but there's so much variation between, or, like I said, bleeding into each other. But I did want to go over very quickly that the anti-Semitic events number fewer than a thousand. And many of those are rallies against anti-Semitism, where communities are responding to the fact that either they themselves as Jewish people or their Jewish neighbors are being harassed. They're being harassed online or in the street. There has been close to a hundred anti-Semitic hate crimes. Some of those are enormous, like what happened in Bondi Beach. And some of those are the attempted assault or the actual assault of Jewish people. There's attacks on Jewish institutions, which you mentioned yourself. I think it was 32 in there. There's a lot of Holocaust denial and neo-Nazi activity as the basis of a protest. So we're seeing that go up. But I do want to mention here very, very clearly that in a lot of cases there are rallies in support of Jewish populations in response to this wave of hate that we've noticed in Britain, that certainly is happening within the States and in Europe. So it's just unfortunate, of course, that there's no real way of dealing with the fact that it's a real cause de jour amongst not just the far right, I really want to specify it's it's very prevalent amongst the far left and it's bleeding into some of these populist parties now that are occupying both of those spaces.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

It's interesting, isn't it? Because in the way that if there was someone targeted because of their skin colour during a reform march in the UK, that doesn't mean that the reform march was there in a racist capacity. And how then do you, as someone who is kind of sitting back watching these patterns unfold and the emergence of this, I mean, I hate to call it a trend, but that's what it is, right? How is it that we can communicate that that's what's going on? Obviously, you're kind of open to exposure, or if that's not what that means, or linking things that aren't linked, and also missing quite a lot of undertones that might be disguising themselves under whatever it is, that anti-Israel or, you know, pick pick a current cause.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Yeah, I would say that events aren't the best way to capture what's happening with anti Semitism more broadly, because they they are few. They're often increasingly deadly, but there are fewer of them, certainly, than the rhetoric that makes Jewish citizens of different countries feel like they are considered a less important population group to protect, and they're far more vulnerable now than. were in the past. With regard to generally far left and far right protests, I mean, it's like trying to capture something that is shape shifting in front of you. So it's it's quite impossible. But I will say that the pro-Palestinian version of this, which often went with trans rights, which often went with climate change to some degree, you've seen all of those loose salience as protest indicators. I think people were calling it like the omnicolus for a while, especially on the left. You've seen them decrease, right? And for example, they were incredibly prevalent across Africa, despite the fact that African states or African citizens' perspective on Palestine has never been a particularly dominant one, but it was part of this protest culture that we're seeing, especially in countries with high levels of young people. But now we're seeing those, for example, within African states return to less quality of life than jobs and the performance of the government and more fuel crisis, things like that. I don't think that we can claim that there is a real deep-seated growth in support for these perspectives or even anti-Semitism. What there is is this constant searching for a scapegoat for this feeling that there's a very high rate of disorder and that they will bear the brunt of it.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Because also around in the news today is what's going on in Germany that the court and I think lots of people there are reporting on it as saying that there's a kind of frustration that because of the approach that the UK took with Palestine action, that is being reflected. And then also some notions about the German response being heavily influenced by the post-Holocaust responsibility towards Israel. Those kinds of news stories that are linking various things and obviously various media is taking their stances. To what extent do you think that that is helping, hindering or or keeping those notions sort of front and center and bleeding into all sorts of conflicts and interactions that are happening every day?

SPEAKER_01 23:57

So you're referring to German court allows pro-Palestinian encampments in Hamburg parks where Jews were deported by the Nazis. So this is kind of like a free speech element effectively yeah you know it's really really difficult. I was trying to explain to the children just the other day about where free speech stops and where incitement to violence begins. And so I had one perspective Sam had another and it wasn't the same. So we were effectively giving them quite different information but it reflects what you consider to be the bigger threat at the moment like whether you consider it to be the suppression of a range of opinions that is going to pay for down the road. So for example in the German case I think what they're worried about is that they have a populist right that is claiming that Germany has prevented people from expressing their frustrations, their ideas about an alternative governing system and they're probably very vulnerable and sensitive to that type of notion. But then you have one of the great historic ills which is anti-Semitism and how it manifests in different points over all of all of bloody human history it feels like. And it is, I firmly believe like a sign that things are going to get pretty bad when they start reviving and fitting this historic hatred into new political slogans and it's a terrible development. There's also other concerns about anti-Islam and anti-Muslim behavior that has become very very common and I think that it's kind of cut from the same cloth a little bit in that it's the fear of the other. But certainly with many of these Jewish populations, they're not the other. They're citizens of these countries and have been for absolute generations as much as anybody else has been. So it's very hard to get a handle on. But I would say that any weaknesses within public disorder or any weaknesses within the security system are very quickly uncovered when you have to deal with this notion of what is incitement to violence to your citizens, even a very particular group of citizens versus what is free speech.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

See Alex and I were having a similar conversation about free speech the other day but it wasn't to do with incitement of violence. It was because he was watching a video on YouTube about how many it's I forget what the youngest generation is called now, but them how many can't read? And so this person was saying that you know it's up to the parents surely and then I was asking you know who is this person that we're listening to make these arguments? Like why are we listening? Why is it this person? Who is he to talk about that? And he said more than once after his complaint about various parents who would then go, but I don't have kids. And I'm like, okay, well is he like researching families or no is he got a PhD in no. Is he a former teacher? No. So the other thing that I get kind of touchy about as a journalist that's come from a place with a news editor and a team and about 400 people checking everything is that no one is holding these people to account and listening to various views and then contributing to whatever view you already have getting more and more extreme with absolutely not a brain cell between them feeding it from these spokespeople.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

You know, whether it's about how to parent or anti-Semitism or or actually there was a really great article last week in The Atlantic on the kind of rising misogyny that you find within American, often like quasi-religious like this Christian nationalism variant. And you know, one of the most extreme is by a pastor who has a church that Pete Hegsath goes to which can explain quite a number of the really abhorrent decisions that he made when he became the Secretary for defense or secretary of war whatever they want to be called these days. But they can have real world consequences even letting the village idiot have some sort of a platform for them to spout these things off. But you know these kids who did that terrible mosque shooting they're ingesting this information. And of course they're not hearing counters to it or you know this person's a moron don't listen to them. They're ingesting it and thinking that it makes sense of their world enough for them to be encouraged into violence.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Yeah because even someone with extreme views who knows what they're talking about wouldn't mix anti-Semitism, anti-women and land on a mosque attack. Let's do this to finish then given the state of everything that we've just talked about if you could only have your eyes on one region for the next couple of days, which one are you picking?

SPEAKER_01 28:27

For the next few days I mean the situation in Iran is either incredibly slow moving or fast moving. So if anything happens look at it right that's a good rule of thumb. One of the things we'll be doing soon is looking at the horn with a little bit more intensity because that is going to kick off I don't think it's going to kick off in the next few days although they have decided to rerun late 2020 as if it wasn't a bloody nightmare for Ethiopia. And that happened quite abruptly right all the same signs they stopped paying salaries the TPLF starts saber rattling all of it. That's all happening again. I guess am I really worried that some 90 year old in Cuba is going to be arrested and taken to the States? I am not right I'm not but I love the fact that when I woke up this morning it said that Cuba was willing to negotiate. I was like with what but anyway neither here nor there. I might say I might say the Congo if only because I think that those poor people they're in such an an absolutely horrific position even without the bloody Ebola. But with it Mother God's like the last layer of hell so I'd look at that spend some time thinking about it. And then what about next week? Next week I actually do want to bring people's attention to something next week which is that we have a Russian shadow fleet webinar. So Russia's shadow fleet which is a network of over about a thousand age tankers moving sanctioned oil through the world's busiest shipping lanes is no longer just a compliance problem. So it's beyond its managerial capabilities. It has now become kind of an active hybrid warfare platform implicated in lots of undersea cable sabotage which involves Ireland so that's a good reason to pay attention to this. Reconnaissance drone launches over military bases and airports we've seen quite a bit of that in the UK and an escalating kind of cat and mouse game with European states in the Baltic and the North Seas. And we've decided that we're going to have a webinar that focuses on this on the 28th of May at 3 p.m or 1500 hours London time 10 a.m New York and we're going to dive into the murky world generally of hybrid warfare where commercial shipping ends and where state sponsored sabotage begins. We're going to be exploring the findings of a recent report which focuses on Russian shadow fleet activities in the Baltic and North Sea, inland hybrid warfare activities, European enforcement measures which are low and Russia's response which is active I'll put it that way. So I highly recommend you kind of wrap your head around it through attending the webinar which of course will be made available online afterwards. But with that Bronn should we go back to seething in our misery?

SPEAKER_00 31:08

I might have a go for a walk first and then Yeah good point.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

All right well I hope everybody else has time for a walk and thank you very much for joining us you've been listening to Conflicts of interest with Professor Cleaner Raleigh brought to you by ACLED the world's leading source of political violence and protest data. Subscribe so you never miss an episode and follow us on socials for updates in the meantime