Born Into
Every pregnancy should be safe, yet nearly 800 mothers die daily from preventable complications.
Brought to you by Every Pregnancy, a global coalition of health organizations, Born Into is a maternal health podcast that explores what needs to happen to make moms and babies safe worldwide. The show invites the world’s most dynamic thinkers, scientists, and advocates to share solutions to this critical issue.
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Born Into
When You Hold a Woman Back, You Hold a Nation Back: Humza Yousaf
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Humza Yousaf on why governments must treat maternal health as a strategic investment, not an afterthought. From Scotland's Baby Box and Best Start Grants to raising his own taxes to fund them, a conversation about what political leadership grounded in faith, empathy, and equity actually looks like in practice.
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Disclaimer: The views expressed by our guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the hosts or producers.
My father, uh he arrived here in around about 11, 12 years old, lost his mother, age 15. Huge trauma. My mother lost her eldest sister uh before coming here, but by God's grace, that my mother wasn't, for example, giving birth in a country like Pakistan, which I love, but has a maternal mortality rate of 150 per 100,000 births. There are still significant institutional barriers structural within our countries, within our governance, within our public policy, um, that are holding women back. Because you're not just the first minister for the Muslim community, far from it. You're a first minister for the entire country. You immediately feel a weight, like a physical weight, upon your shoulders. And you know, uh you've got to carry that weight. And an interviewer said, Maybe you're just too nice to have been first minister. And I said to him, actually, if that is the worst criticism I can get from my opposition, I'll take it. I'm happy with that.
SPEAKER_00Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Born Into Podcast. My name is Israt Shakit, and I'm the CEO of Every Pregnancy, and I am so glad you're here. As you know, each week on this podcast, we bring you episodes and stories of hope and resilience about what it's like to be a mom, support a mother, or support a system that supports good maternal health care for moms and babies around the world. We know that these systems are not just about what the community does and how they respond to moms and babies in their areas, but it's also about the governments and their response to building institutions and systemic uh ability to continue to support moms and babies throughout not just their pregnancy journey and childbirth, but even as they continue to thrive in society. And that's why today's conversation matters so much. Our guest today, live from London, England, is Hamza Youssef, former First Minister of Scotland. Before leading Scotland, he served in multiple cabinet roles, including as health secretary during the COVID pandemic, overseeing one of the most complex public systems any government has ever had to run. Hamza had made history as a first Muslim to lead a Western European country when he became the first minister of Scotland. But long before that moment, he was the son of immigrants raised in a Muslim household where faith, service, and justice were part of his everyday life. And today we are so excited to have him on Born and Two to talk about the responsibility of governments to actually support moms and babies and what does it take to build the systems that treat pregnancy and healthcare as a priority, not just an afterthought. Hamza, welcome to Born and Two.
SPEAKER_03Asalaam, what a great pleasure to be with you, to be talking to you and to be part of the every pregnancy journey and the born into journey. Yeah, I love it. So thank you so much for uh having me on.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for being here.
SPEAKER_03This is such a great opportunity to be with you, talking to you, but also we're gonna have a wonderful after, of course, uh later uh tonight as well. So uh you're so important that you've dragged a Scotsman down to England.
SPEAKER_00Can you believe that? I feel like that's a big deal. Huge deal. It's like between the British and the Scottish accent, you know. I gotta say, Scots are kind of my favorite right now. And especially with how you all have supported the different causes, especially moms and babies who suffer in different parts of the world, including in Gaza, you've been such a vocal spokesperson for that, and I'm excited to talk to you about all of that. But before we jump into Ahamzal, for those who are for the first time kind of being introduced to you, honestly, from this audience, how would you introduce yourself?
SPEAKER_03Oh. First of all, I would say I'm Hamza Yousuf, and I'm before anything else, before former First Minister or former health secretary, I'm a father. I love that. I'm a husband. I'm a husband, nope. Yes, I am a husband. Um Ramadan Brain, uh, and I'm a son. And uh I've been shaped by incredible women uh in my life, which is why I'm also excited to do this podcast. Um so first and foremost, uh foremost, those are my identities, and uh you were right in your introduction. Uh faith is not a tick box or an add-on, it's a core part of who I am and my identity. And uh really uh I am somebody, I hope, who has been steeped in public service. And you and I are talking about four weeks from when I demit office and and stand down from frontline politics, but I hope to continue that public service. So my life is dedicated to uh helping as many people as I possibly can and making the biggest impact to help the most vulnerable that I can. And I hope that God gives me the continues to give me the platform to be able to do so.
SPEAKER_00And I really think that you take this platform so seriously you can feel it. It's like responsibility to you. And even when I first met you in person, we were always connected online, but I met you first in person in DC a few months ago when you were doing a tour in support of the Muslim Public Affairs Council and the work that they're doing. And I remember someone saying, I love that he's so invested even in the Muslim American experience and people's call to action and civic engagement. And and I was thinking to myself, like, yeah, what does a Scotsman care so much about how Muslims are and the support that we build and the systems we're building in different parts of the world, but especially in the United States, where we know um, you know, our circumstances as an American are extremely volatile and the position we're in is very vulnerable. And oftentimes we oppose what our government's actions are, and we're very complicit in the genocide, and we want to change that. So, why was it so important to you to even come to the US and be part of that narrative and helping us build the confidence and the tools to change our own politics?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, for two for two reasons primarily. And um, one is we are so internationalist and globalized as a community, as a people, uh, as an entire species. Look, I I can only I can go back two generations. In fact, I could go back one generation. And my mother and father were not born in this country. Uh either came here with their grandpar with their parents, my grandparents. Uh, my mother from Kenya, one of the Asians who was in East Africa, uh, and my father uh and his family uh from Pakistan in the 1960s. Very typical story of South Asian migrants uh coming to this country and what they managed to build and what they managed to achieve. But they themselves actually were steeped in trauma. You know, my father uh he arrived here in around about 11, 12 years old, lost his mother, age 15, huge trauma. Um my mother No, thank you. My mother lost her eldest sister uh before coming here uh to um the UK. So really steeped in trauma. And I try to remember the fact that it is but by God's grace, but by God's grace, that my mother wasn't, for example, giving birth in a country like Pakistan, which I love, but has a maternal mortality rate of 150 per 100,000 births compared to the UK, which is still by the way too high, around about 12 per 100,000. So it's only by God's mercy, nothing else, not because I'm super talented or I've got wonderful skills or because of my endeavours, it's because of God's mercy. And so therefore I've got an absolute responsibility that sits quite heavily, I think, on my shoulders, and it should sit heavily on all of our shoulders for those that have some privilege, is to make sure that we are dedicating our life to make the world better for those that don't have the privilege that we do. Most of them are non-Muslims. So that's the first thing. Uh you know, internationalist outlook, so the US was important to go to. The second reason, actually, is you're right, the times we're living in are deeply frightening. But also the opportunity is huge. But what I try to say to uh my American friends, and I say it to my UK friends too, is that it doesn't really matter what political party you align with. It doesn't really matter what your political ideologies uh ideology is. If you uh believe in societies and need to progress and not regress, then we are facing some forces in the United Kingdom and in the United States that want to take us back to the Dark Ages, that want to create a monolith, um, that want to create uh uh uh homogeneity. And the uh problem is transatlantic, so the far right in the United Kingdom are funded by the far right in the United States, by white supremacists in the United States. Tommy Robinson, who is uh the chief anti-Muslim propagandist here in the United Kingdom, his last court case was funded by Elon Musk. So the the connection. Yeah. If the problem and they share talking points and scripts. So if the problem is transatlantic, then surely the solution should be transatlantic.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03And so uh I'd say much like the wonderful work that you and your team, but you largely have led uh around, you know, first for mama and every pregnancy, is building coalitions. And we've got to build that coalition that says, no, we don't want society to aggress. We believe in advancement, we believe in progress, and we believe in the basic human rights that every ever Indian every individual should have, regardless of race, religion, uh, creed or background. So no, that's why the interest in not just the United States, but frankly uh the entire world in terms of the direction that we're moving in.
SPEAKER_00I mean, so beautifully said and so powerfully said. I know that you talked about responsibility that you carry, but when you first were the first Muslim leader of a Western democracy. I mean, that is mashallah. Um wow, you know, in Europe, like I can only imagine what that felt like for you personally. But what did it actually feel like stepping into that role beyond just the politics and beyond you know the responsibility that you were gonna do to actually be a good administrator to your constituents? Did it feel like anything else from the faith perspective that you were stepping into? Yeah. And how did you like reconcile with that and navigate that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, look, and and and by the way, let's be really candid and open and honest with with each other. I've been in politics 20 years, four years in the background, um, 15 years in the forefront, so uh actually 19 years, so j j just coming to to to to almost two decades.
SPEAKER_00MashaAllah.
SPEAKER_03And yeah, all by the grace of God, you make plenty of mistakes on that journey. Yeah. Um plenty of things that you reflect on. But those mistakes that you make are all part of the learning, uh, and they're all part of creating the resilience that you need to be in a public-facing entity. Before we started recording, you and I were talking about the fact that the more high profile you become, unfortunately, the more resilient you have to become to people who want to try to attack you. And so uh, in terms of um what did that feel like, look if I tell you the story, the the result of uh the election contest to become first minister, there were three candidates, myself and two others, and the result was being being announced at at 2 pm, uh, and uh this is March 2023, and um we're in a room the size of this one that we're in. And the national secretary of the party who has the result in her hand tells everybody else to clear the room except the three of us. And she said, Look, you're just about to go into stage and then uh result's gonna be announced. But I'm gonna tell you the result in private two minutes before she said, Yeah, and this was always the way it was done. I'm not entirely sure of the logic of it, but I think it's to be able to compose yourself if you're gonna win. So she and we have a I won't go into the uh the the detail of the voting system we have, but it's it's a bit intricate. Uh not just a plain first past the post because there's three candidates. And anyway, it becomes obvious that I'm I'm I'm elected as first minister. And immediately I st I I start crying because the weight of that responsibility is huge.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And don't get me wrong, of course, there's tears of of joy because we've put in such work into the campaign, but there is real tears of this is just a massive responsibility. And I'm not lying to you when I say with all sincerity that you uh immediately feel a weight, like a physical weight, upon your shoulders. And um that responsibility is important because you're not just the first minister for the Muslim community, far from it. You're a first minister first minister for the entire country, and that means everybody and all their beautiful diversity that they exist. Um and you know, uh you've got to carry that weight. And I think for me, uh you never know if you're going to be in the role for six weeks, six years, or anywhere in between. And so what you try to keep in mind, particularly in politics, is whenever you leave, make sure that you have your integrity, your principles, your intact, and make sure that wherever you're doing this comes from our faith, that you're driven by your good intention, which was advice my father gave me. So so look, I always try to do that, and I remember when I when I left office and um you know there was there was a week you know before uh between my resignation uh statement and then actually debitting office, uh, and and an interviewer from the BBC, I think it was, came to interview me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And he said, you know, one of your opponents is you know, you're a nice guy, and you've got you know strong principles, but maybe you're just too nice to have been first minister. And I said to him, actually, if that is the worst criticism I can get from my opposition, I'll take it. I'm happy with that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Alhamdulillah.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Oh my gosh. Um, what a beautiful journey. And even to feel that physical weight, I feel like that's why you can probably relate to so much of what Zahran Mamdani is feeling being the first m Muslim mayor of New York City. I mean, what a game changer for us. If anything, that was the hope and the glimmer of hope from 2025 for so many Muslims, not just in the US, but globally. You know, I think when we talk about maternal health, it's often framed as just a healthcare issue. But I know that you really understand that it's an overall governance issue. So, from your experience, what actually determines whether mothers and babies thrive in a society? And how do you build systems that support that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so people often confuse equality and equity. And I think that's uh that's a big problem. Um, and so it there are there's a mountain of studies, academic research, that will tell you, for example, just taking one example, of course, here, of the institutional barriers that women face, that um every time they have uh a child, what that does in terms of their career progression versus a man uh who also might, by the way, be a father to children, but their career progression or women's career progression will be five years behind their male counterpart, if not even even more, some studies will show. And then multiply that by your second and your third and however many children you choose to have. So the truth of the matter is that there is undeniably, uh, through all the academic research, all the lived experience that we we we have and we know of, all the qualitative, all the quantitative data tells us the same thing, that there are still significant institutional barriers structural within our countries, within our governance, within our public policy, um, that are holding women back from realizing their full potential. Uh and therefore, when you when you hold a woman back, the argument I think that holds true is you hold entire families back, entire communities back, and therefore entire countries back. And so in Scotland we've tried to do a lot of work to try to dismantle some of those institutional barriers. So that involves a lot of early intervention. We're talking pre-birth.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So how do we support women with pregnancy uh grants, you know, for those that are the most vulnerable? So again, they have access to uh, for example, certain classes, um, get access to certain vitamins that they might not otherwise have access to because they live in areas of high deprivation. Every single mother and family and child is eligible for in Scotland a baby box. This box comes and it's uh full of all the essentials. And by the way, it doesn't matter what you earn, uh you're entitled to that. Um and and and it comes with all of not just the essentials, things that you just wouldn't even think that you you need and require. You know, the first time your baby has a fever and you're trying to look for a thermometer and you don't have one, well the baby box has got all of that. Um and and and then trying to create the systems right throughout the mother's journey and the child's journey, where we are systematically and deliberately dismantling the barriers that exist to their uh advancement, progression, uh, and and and we're benefiting from that as a society. So it's it's very selfish in one sense. Um, but I think with an altruistic uh underlying premise. So I think that that's where from a government perspective, and and by the way, this work is, as you know, uh in the United States and the United Kingdom just becoming more and more difficult because um the forces that are reigning against us see this as all some kind of lefty woke conspiracy. But actually, they are also often those men um in advantageous positions to the detriment of their wives or their mothers or even their daughters. And um I just wish that they would understand that they couldn't have got to where they got to. I mean, I know I couldn't have got to where I got to without my mother, uh without my sisters, without my wife, uh, and so on. So yeah, look, I I think it's it's it's all about as early intervention as possible, and it's all about removing deliberately and systemically those institutional barriers that exist.
SPEAKER_00I love that. And I think that that's really critical because the maternal mortality rates globally are shockingly high.
SPEAKER_01Unbelievable.
SPEAKER_00And you know that Nigeria alone accounts for 30% of the maternal mortality crisis in rate. Just Nigeria alone. That's incredible. And that's why I was in Nigeria because we, as every pregnancy, are prioritizing supporting local efforts and frontline efforts on the ground there and trying to really get to the root cause, but also address it because people are working on this issue. There are incredible frontline implementers like Professor Hadiza Galidanchi from ACEFAP, who is a trailblazer. And unfortunately, despite all the effort and attention of people on the ground, because of the greater systemic barriers of even the aid infrastructure or investments from philanthropic partners, they're still not seeing a fraction of what could be and what is needed to resolve the crisis. You know, on the economic empowerment and how the economy is actually feeding into this model, too, for every $1 invested in women's health, it yields nine dollars in economic gains. Like that is proven research. That's a data set that I actually set on stage at semaphore at the Billion Summit last year, and people were shocked to hear it. But that was the reality, and that is the reality. So we know when you invest in women's health, when you invest in maternal health, and give a mom and a woman all that she needs, like you said, so that she does have the access and the ability to continue with her career progression if she wants, and especially be able to support her family on her own two feet, that that is the solution to so many ways. Absolutely. One thing you said, Hamza, that stood out to me was you didn't you said grants, maternal grants. And I love that that's the framing you used because that is so antithesis to how people frame usually support to moms and babies. First of all, we're used to only hearing about it in the framework of like orphan support or widow support, even in our Muslim community. That's how we look at this issue when we're supporting an orphan, we're supporting a widow, and or we're supporting a mom or giving her life or saving her. But you know, every pregnancy is really of the belief that we don't do that, that's not our mentality, and we hate that framing actually. Like I detest it. I detest everyone looking at moms as victims or as helpless. I never want someone to support this coalition out of pity. I want you to support because that is our obligation morally, but also these moms are not victims, they're not helpless. And so, even when you're able to say, like, we invest in grant giving to them, that gives them even the positionality that we are here to invest in you, in your success, and your growth. This is not a handout, this is not charity. And so I love that even that in itself, between the as in as an equitable perspective, is such a beautiful perspective to have. Yeah. But how do we get other governments and in the US or otherwise or anywhere else to prioritize it? Because if it was prioritized, we wouldn't have such high maternal health, maternal mortality rates in general.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And look, by the way, let me commend the work that you've done and and for my and uh LA pregnancy uh have done in such a short space of time. Thank you. Because I think the beauty of what you do is that you're get there's so many good actors and players and partners doing fantastic work across the world.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03And yet what sometimes is missing is that strategic alignment and that focus in one direction and a credible pathway for donors, philanthropists, foundations to be able to fund and invest in. And yeah, by the way, the the literal name of that grant is called the Best Start Grant. I love that in in Scotland. So we want to give every child and every mother the best start they possibly can. So that that is the name of the grant. So we're we're we're unequivocal about it. Look, the other thing I would say, this is something I did as as first minister and and wasn't terribly popular at the time by with some, but I was unapologetic about it. Is what I did was I I I raised the taxation level for those that are the wealthiest in order to fund some of this. And by the way, that included me at the time. I was in the highest tax bank, and I said, Well, I'm happy to pay more.
SPEAKER_00We say the US tax the rich all about it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but and and and and again, you know, you can imagine I got some criticism and some backlash and even internally. And I said, Look, it's the right thing to do. We have to do it. If we're we can't create money out of nothing, right? And and of course we should try to reduce um uh inefficiency and increase productivity and so on. But you know, I need some money right now. Yeah. And there's some very wealthy people in this country who thankfully are are paying you know taxation and we're grateful for it, but they can afford to pay a little bit more. And let's get them to pay more, not to line my pockets, but to put into wonderful programs like the Best Start Grant. Or we had something called the Scottish Child Payment, which helps again some of the poorest uh children in the country, lifts tens of thousands of children out of poverty in Scotland alone. Um and I think this is the the the the the what we have to do with governments and and look, it's hard with the current administration that you have in the United States. Um I think what we're probably particularly bad at is really influencing future pipelines of leadership. So, you know, uh that's not to say you should give up on the current administration, but continue the efforts that you have, build those coalitions, create as many credible voices advocating for the work of maternal health, you know, people like uh Bill Gates, who often have an audience with with with uh the president, you know, begin to do what you can to support uh that work. Uh but uh there it would be foolish of us, and I would say negligent of us and this is across the world, not just the United States and the United Kingdom and right across the world, to not look at the broader horizon and say, okay, we're not going to put all our eggs in in one basket. But if we were to look at the next presidential elections in twenty-eight, um well who are the who are the likely candidates? And what are we doing to try to get them to understand the importance of maternal health? That it isn't just a nice to-do or a tick box, but it is absolutely fundamental to a more equitable uh world. And by the way, also helps you with some of the issues that you have here. Why do we have such issues around mass migration to Europe, for example, and to the United States? Well, because people are fleeing poverty and conflict conflict and um the fact that, you know, they they they may well be one of the 150 out of 100,000 that may well die on the operating theatre if they have to go in for a section during all during during birth or or giving a live birth. So so I think a better future proofing and planning, I think, is really important and and investing some money in that's not sexy, you know, going to a donor and going to a philanthropist and saying, look, we need to put some money into lobbying various different candidates for president or governor or health secretary in the future. But we need that money to convince them because they're going to be sitting around the cabinet table in four or five years' time, or maybe even in the White House, or maybe even at number ten.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And we need to do that work now, instead of leaving it, oh, there's an election in five weeks' time, so we better start. No, I mean you've left it far too late. So I think there's a lot of work to be done, and and and you know, when I demit office, I'm I'm not standing again in in uh the next Scottish elections in a few weeks' time. Uh I'll be putting my efforts into well, how do we more strategically align what we're seeking to do in this space and and and making sure that we're not leaving it to chance and actually influencing uh policy in a positive way, not just for Muslims at all, but actually for the betterment of humanity in the future.
SPEAKER_00I love that. It's so beautifully said. And when you think about it, like that's what real leadership actually is, right? But I feel like sometimes governments or people in office or people going to be potentially pursuing office don't really know how to focus on leadership that really is aligned with what the needs of their communities are, because the political cost of that sometimes is too high, given the opponents, given where lobbyist power is, where attention is being driven. And so, how do you navigate that? And how did you navigate that when you were the first minister where you're saying, okay, I have constituents, these are real issues we're navigating, but ultimately when the political cost is high to speak out against something, including the genocide, which you were very vocal about, like you took that cost and you took the risk because I'm assuming it was like very personal connection to it, faith-driven, and we'll talk about that. But how from a political operative perspective do you navigate that?
SPEAKER_03Well, look again, I think we don't have the structures to help people to navigate it as a problem. Um so again, uh you know, if if we were to think about the pipeline of future congressmen and congresswomen, uh MPs uh in the country, um there will always be certain lobby groups that will try to push them towards a certain direction. So in the United States, APAC probably one of the most obvious examples of where a lobby group very openly, it's not under the radar, very openly, very boastful, this is why. Yeah, this is uh how much millions we put into ex-candidate, and this candidate was successful against uh Y candidate, right? So we're very, very uh open about it. And with all of the talent, wealth, expertise and campaigning that we have, but why have we not created structures that are able to say to people who want to advance? And again, this is not about Muslim causes, by the way. I don't want anybody to get confused about what I'm saying. This is about simply progressive values, regardless of by the way, what your political party is or what colours politically you wear. But if you want to see advancement and not regression, and saying, look, there's good people who sit in the Republicans and Democrats, good people who sit in Labour and the SNP and the Conservatives and the Greens and so on. Actually, how do we make sure that there is a body there that is able to help to make sure that they're not so dependent on, I think, more nefarious forces like APAC, who I think are really damaging political integrity in the United States? Well, we i i it's not rocket science. We're clever people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03We have very deep pockets as a community and a global community. Um why are we not beginning to strategically align what we're doing and not leaving this stuff to chance and then complaining when somebody gets into office and yeah, of course they're taking the APAC line because AIPAC gave them three million dollars. Exactly. Stop complaining about it and do something about it. So we can I think we need to begin to create the structures. Um and again, it's part of the conversation around transatlantic alliance with the US and the United Kingdom. If we can get it right in these two places, we can get it right just about anywhere. And I think it's about time that we we began to be a lot more strategic and focused around what we're doing and not leave things to chance.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, 100%. And part of that is breaking down the silos. You know, when cr when uh building every pregnancy, the biggest challenge I saw is that everyone is doing great work. All these organizations individually are supporting moms and babies on the ground in some of the hardest-to-reach areas. They're indigenous to these communities, they're not big, you know, multilateral entities or big NGOs where a fraction of your dollar is going to where it needs to go or where you intended it to go as a donor. This is where people are committed to delivering the best quality service in the hardest to reach areas. But the problem is that they weren't working together, they weren't communicating. So, one of my first goals and one of the core values of every pregnancy is that we don't work in silos.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That this coordination, like you said, is not just strategic alignment, but it's also collaboration opportunities where you actually recognize that some of you work better when you are information sharing, when you are resource sharing. And a natural, beautiful like output of every pregnancy has been we've seen multiple partners now collaborating on joint programming for moms and babies, where one partner has you know portable ultrasounds in Gazza that others have not been able to get into the country and into Gaza. And then specifically, like they'll share those resources and do the training for other partners on the ground. And so, like, we are facilitating that. We're so proud of that outcome. And then, like I said, I think what you were saying is like the idea is how do you continue to break those silos, not just in the program intervention side of things, because that, of course, that's where the work is happening, impact is happening. But what decisions get that impact or get those dollars to there is where the silos also need to be broken down in our communities. I often feel, and let's just like name it very directly, Hamza, I feel like our community um sometimes can be in the I'm talking about the Muslim community, and this is such a challenge of ours, is that it's almost like a scarcity mentality, or we feel like if I'm doing something really well, we I can't really share that model, or I can't, you know, be so collaborative because then someone will just take my idea and run with it, and where does that leave me? And I feel the biggest problem sometimes is our egos that get in the way of impact. And so it's so funny because I I literally will tell people, take the model, go take the every pregnancy model and use it wherever you want on nutritious, infectious diseases and politics and advocacy because it works. But if we're all just so focused on building our own thing, how do we ever expect to be able to you know compete honestly when uh when it comes to impact that we really need? Like you said, you have institutions like APAC, they they are the resource. And for the Muslim community, we have so many different packs, so many different entities, so many different advocacy organizations. It's almost like what do we do to like push everyone together and create this mega superpower that we have. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, look, I I'm not it's it's never my style to kind of blow smoke um of a proverbial, but look, I think I think you've I think you've you're a demonstration of the fact that you need somebody that's credible to front some of these things. Because the truth of the matter is, particularly when we're talking about investments and money and really significant amounts of money, um then people, understandably so, funders want to understand that there's a credible person that's leading it that maybe has experience. In your case, you had experience in campaigns, you're working with some of the biggest organizations in the world uh globally, including you know, Oxfam and Amnesty and so on. Before, so you had a huge level of credibility. And again, by the grace of God, you know, I would like to think that I've got some credibility in some circles, I'm sure there's there's some that th my opponents will tell you otherwise. But generally speaking, you know, the the reason for that, again, it's it's all by God's mercy, not by because of my endeavors, but because I've you know I was I started as an intern 20 years ago in politics. So went from an intern to you know researcher to an advisor to elected to junior minister to senior minister to cabinet minister to first minister. So the exp so people can look at that and say, look, well he's got he understood if if anybody understands politics, then he he gets it right. He's been there, he's been in the trenches, um, he's done the hard graft, he's delivered leaflets when the rain was soaking and he couldn't get a leaflet through the letterbox and it was crumbling in his hand right the way through to sitting in in in uh standing in parliament, you know, and or sitting in Butte House, which is the first minister's residence in Edinburgh. So the credibility is really important, and we should be shy about that. That we need people who are who are credible to to really spearhead some of these initiatives. I I do know, and and and and maybe you know, feel free to challenge me on this. I do know a bit of a generational shift. I do know, and I think every pregnancy is a demonstration of this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03There are more and more people in our community who are willing to come together and collaborate. One thing I used to notice, and I used to say to my dad, so my dad, my father's an accountant and uh he's got a s he had a small practice, he just actually just retired in November last year at the age of 73. Wow. And I say retired, he still works about two, three days a week, so you know, semi-retired. And um the street on which he's had his accountancy practice for the last four decades, when we were younger, opposite his office, there was at least four or five halal butcher shops right next door to each other. Wow. And he sort of said to my dad, how the heck can these guys make any money? Like, and so what would happen is one would open it, be successful, and the other guy would say, I'm gonna take some of his profit. I'm gonna open I mean I'm talking literally the next unit down. And then a couple of units down would be the other two. And so we would all they would all be undercutting each other. They'd all be this price to bottom. And now if you go to that same street, there's one or two left, maybe, and and even they're struggling uh to to go, and the others have come and gone. And and and it would have been, of course, and that's just a a a micro example of a bigger problem. But it's true. And I and I think that what I'm seeing now, which I'm I'm heartened about, is I do see from a generation now a much greater willingness to collaborate, to partner, to see the greater good. And that's not going to stop ego entirely because we're human beings and ultimately every single one of us, myself included, of course, you're included, everybody included, we all have a level of ego that we have to keep in check. Absolutely. We call it nafs the ego, right? Absolutely. And so so that's always going to be there. But I think there is understanding the pressure that we're under and the funding landscape and the political landscape, if we don't collaborate, then we die, and and and you know, all of your endeavors really will become far more difficult and everybody can win. You know, it's it's uh it's the analogy of the raising all the boats you know together. You know, if the water rises, all the boats rise together, and I think that's what we're able to do.
SPEAKER_00And to your point, you know, that there's enough resources in the world for all of us and enough space and recognition. Um, and the end of the day, like the impact should be what drives this more than anything. And being able to see even in nine months, the coalition under every pregnancy to provide life-saving care to over 500,000 moms and babies in nine months' time delivered in over 20 countries. And that's just the beginning. We're barely scratching the surface. And so um, I'm so proud to say that like every pregnancy really is that example, and I don't even give it to the leadership of the team behind it. I really give it to the coalition partners because without them, we wouldn't exist without them delivering the front lines, but without them also saying, you know, this is something we want to engage in. And we started to see the shift even how nonprofit organizations are now prioritizing maternal health programming. So when I first started, so many of them were doing this programming, but they weren't talking about it or fundraising for it. Therefore, the capacity for it wasn't growing internally and the prioritization for it wasn't growing internally. But when they felt like there was a structure and a system and a strategy that they could lean into, they naturally progressed to prioritize it. And I feel like that's exactly what we're seeing on the greater scale of how the Muslim community responds to this. So um, alhamdulillah, if you were advising governments today, what would you say is the single most important investment for mothers for each of them to do? Like what would that be?
SPEAKER_03I suppose uh not to give you the politicians kind of cop-out answers.
SPEAKER_00I kind of like the proper answer.
SPEAKER_03But the the the the of course, every context will be different. Of course. But generally speaking, for me, uh a couple of things, the guy one of the big influences politically in my life was Malcolm X. I remember reading for a lot of aspiring politicians, I think that that's true. Me too. And um, you know, uh reading his biography, it was one of the kind of seminal works that I read growing up and becoming politically active. And and of course, one of his very famous quotes is, you know, you educate a man and you educate an individual, you educate a woman actually, you educate an entire entire nation. I think that's really important for us to remember that if we are uh not not actually even elevating women, all we're doing is providing equity uh where there where there isn't any and dismantling the barriers, then the entire country, nation and therefore arguably the world uh absolutely benefits from that. Uh but as early intervention as possible is required. As early I mean there's again a plethora of academic research that will you can drown in that will tell you all of the same thing. That the earlier you can intervene, then the better chance you have in terms of tackling maternal mortality, but also for the outcomes for the child as well. Uh and and and that's it. So as early intervention as possible, see it as an investment. Absolutely as an investment. And you've talked about the figures in terms of the actual investment into maternal uh mortality and investing into women more generally. We've seen it from the work that we've done in Scotland in relation to getting more women into work. Uh you know, for every pound that we spent, there's been an exceptional return uh in terms of getting women back into work, widening that pool uh of expertise uh and knowledge and different perspectives that we don't often have and corporate boards and so on. Um so so and is early investment a priority? And then look, I I think we should be doing much, much more to encourage um young girls to think about getting into leadership spaces um and and political leadership spaces. Um I have talked to too many women, including in the next Scottish elections in in May this year, who are leaving politics because it is just too uh nasty, abusive, and toxic a landscape. And we're losing such an enormous amount of talent. Some of them much younger than I than I am, who could have had another twenty odd years plus in politics. Yeah. But leaving because they don't and they shouldn't have to deal with the everyday misogyny, um, the abuse, the rape threats, all of that. Yeah, I mean, and it's the same in the I'm sure in the United States, if not worse, frankly. Uh I mean you guys quite literally carry guns, you know, it's even even worse, I think, for uh those in the United States. So we've got a real yeah, I mean early intervention I think is important, seeing it as an investment is important, but then I think again a really organized strategic, non-partisan effort to try you know, in your case, a kind of bipartisan effort to make sure that there is more women in in leadership space. And some wonderful people are doing good work on this, yeah. And and uh, you know, Home Aberdeen, for example, uh, doing some really good work on that kind of women leadership space and spoke very briefly to her uh a few months ago. Uh so good people do some wonderful work in this space, and I think we've got to step up and governments have got to step up to fund those initiatives and prioritize them, not as tick boxes, but seeing them as fundamental to their economic growth strategy. Absolutely. Uh fundamental to their uh strategies on education and health and so on and so forth.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. You know, it's so interesting because I was having a conversation with uh your wife last night. She told me, she said, When are you gonna join get into politics? I said the exact same answer. I said, I'm I'm too scared to. Like I'm I used to always think, and people who've known me for over 10 years since I was like a child, said, like, oh, I want to run for office one day. Like I want to be like a figure in the US, trying to make decisions, help decisions, help the communities, only for the sake of giving back. And uh that has really worn down for me personally, truly. Um I believe in the power of collective action and in democracy. Honestly, I really do uh on the value side and the ideology side, but I do think that the fear and the risk, especially as a woman, especially as a Muslim woman, especially as a visibly Muslim woman, it's uh sometimes it feels too great and like not worth it. I'm like, I don't want to risk my safety. Um and so I I really do hope that even the way that our polit like our politicians, but also the the way that the political system is perceived, even changes because I feel like it used to be so hopeful. Yeah. And it's like it's really hard to convince someone to believe that this is in your best interest to take on this role, even if you truly believe they have the expertise and the ability to lead.
SPEAKER_03No, I I look at I couldn't agree more, but uh I'll give you a little counter in a minute to that before. Yeah, exactly. I'll try to do a little bit of that. But also, but first of all, got to acknowledge it, because it's true. And I I I I don't sugarcoat it. And I I get a lot of uh people of colour, uh minorities, Muslims, Muslim women coming up to me asking me for advice, and I'm almost happy to give it. But I do say you've got to go eyes wide open because you've got to get the balance right, that it there is going to be toxicity. You will have to develop what we call a thick skin, but you don't want to develop such a thick skin that you're impervious to emotion or empathy. Because actually being empathetic is probably the greatest gift and quality I think a politician could have. Because you know, we don't know all the answers, we don't understand every person's experience, but understanding with empathy what they're going through will motivate us to do better for those individuals. So empathy, but if you become so thick skinned that you become impervious to any empathy whatsoever, then I don't think you should be in that position. So getting that balance right is is always important. But look, I but I I I would say like everybody has got an incredible amount of skills, and we all know where our skills are, our strengths are, and often where our weaknesses are. And you may be playing in a really important role as you have been doing over uh your working life, whether it was in those organizations we talked about before, but currently at the moment, with the work that you're doing, you know, that is every pregnancy is done with its coalition partners, that is is gone stratospheric, really, and is is continuing to go through a wonderful trajectory. I I uh the counter I suppose I would give you is there aren't many people within the Muslim community in particular globally, I would say a fraction of a percent that have had the exposure that you've had. You've sat down with prime ministers and presidents, you've sat down uh you know with royalty, um, you've sat down you know, you've accessed the halls and corridors of power. Again, and you'll take this in the spirits intended, not through anything other than God's grace.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03And he's given you an incredible opportunity. The question is, are you going to waste it? Now you're not wasting it, you're doing some fantastic and phenomenal work. But given you could be one of the select few people that could be in Congress, that could be in DC and representing your constituency, your district, with the skills that you have, with the knowledge that you have around campaigning, uh with your ability to communicate and articulate the way you do, um, with your access to philanthropy and funding. Uh if you didn't go for Congress at some point, I would say I would say that if hacked I would go as far as saying, um, you know, y if you didn't attempt to go for it, I would say that is such a waste of your abilities, opportunities. And maybe uh go as far as your big brother uh as saying uh that might even be negligent of you actually. Um I I think you have a great weight of responsibility on your shoulders to do some incredible things which you're doing in the upper pregnancy space. But there'll be a time I think where every pregnancy will be able to stand on its two feet without Israel and you'll train somebody to be able to do it. And at that point, if you didn't run for office, I'm personally going to come to the United States and give you a kick on the back side.
SPEAKER_00You know, you'll be joining um my brother, Congressman Andre Carson, and sister Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib, and Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, who all have said this to me so many times and as is literally as early as last week at their thought.
SPEAKER_03Um I'll be forced in the queue behind them then.
SPEAKER_00You're gonna be with them. Listen, I'm gonna I'll never say never. And I feel like having a support system, like even the four of you and plus plus everyone around me, is honestly such um is it provides security and support in a way that I think that we all need truly to be able to take on these roles. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um Hamza, do you ever miss being in office? Oh yeah, all the time. I mean go back.
SPEAKER_03Look, I again I would never say never. Um certainly not in the immediate future. Yeah. Because look, I'm uh there's lots of things that are uh have come at the right time for me. So you know, you've done the top job, yeah, you step back from office, um it's time to move on. Um turned 40 last year. Uh even Islamically 40 is quite an important age, we know from the age, of course. Uh prophetic tradition. Um everything, even with my children and where they are on their schooling journey, everything is just the right time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And and going back to to women, my wife, uh who you uh met yesterday, has sacrificed so much for me over these last few years. It's really time that I do a bit of the sacrificing and say to her, look, what do you want to do? And what do we want to do together? So, inshallah, one of the things we'll do, for example, is we'll we'll um uh my my my next uh kind of chapter will involve doing various different projects that hopefully will uh keep my financial foundation solid. And anything on top of that, speaking books, we'll put into a charitable foundation in our names collectively, with me and Nadia, and we'll support some really good projects, hopefully, inshallah, including one of the But that's the you know that that that so I I she she sacrificed a lot of time for me to do a bit of sacrificing, uh for sure. But I think ultimately my role, you know, I'm 40, so I'm not quite in the kind of elder statesman role just yet, but I do think there's a lot of us that have had so much political experience um over years and decades. And again, one of the things I'll be working on is how do we create that um support structure for aspiring uh politicians um and uh and and the next generation, nurturing the next generation of global leadership, particularly within Muslims living in the West. And again, totally bipartisan, uh across the political spectrum. It's not about what party you belong to. Uh how do we make sure that you're not just values-driven, that you have the access to good people that have done this before, that have made mistakes along the way, have the battle scars that can teach you about communication and political political strategy or whatever it is. And and and and and to create that support network across the world where we support each other. I've always been of the impression that when you get to any senior position, you don't pull the ladder up, you you you you give your hand down and you pull other people up with you, right? And so that's that's gotta be the goal with what I do. So when you are ready to run uh for office and you need a campaign manager and uh you need advice or anything like that. I love this. I'll be one of your many network controller that you'll have.
SPEAKER_00Oh, but the best of the best right here. And this is on camera, it's recorded. This is amazing. I'll be like, oh my gosh, I gotta do this, I gotta do it. But I appreciate that so much. You know, Hamza, for my last question for you before I ask you a couple sentences just to finish the sentence. For those that are listening and thinking to themselves, like you're an inspiration to them, and what you've been able to do feels like very far-fetched for them, like uh that's impossible in the realm of impossibility for them. What would you advise them as now, not just in the maternal health space, but just as a big brother to them? How would you get people who are really feeling weighed down with the state of the world today but want to do something about it, but maybe scared, maybe anxious, maybe don't know where to start? What would be your like brotherly advice to anybody, no matter what sector they're working in, no matter where how old they are, no matter what identities they carry? What's your what's your advice to them right now?
SPEAKER_03So look, all of us have power and all of us have a platform. Uh maybe within your own family. It may be that you're a family of four or five and you're able to influence that, and that's your platform.
SPEAKER_01I love that.
SPEAKER_03That may be that you're the leader of a country, and therefore you're able to and and and everyone in between. The CEO of a company, a middle manager, uh whatever your position is, platform is in life, you've got a platform. And so if you believe, again, I keep going back to this point about the advancement of society, that we want to keep moving forward, that we want to that we take real value in being multiracial, multicultural, that's a strength, not a weakness. If you believe in those values, then absolutely begin to to use whatever platform that you have to advocate. And I think the second thing um I would say is that um look, uh everybody has the ability to make change, and we've seen that. Um you should this was advice given to me and kind of faith-inspired. As long as the intention is good, then opportunity will open for you.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03I remember when I was growing up as a South Asian young boy, and my parents they wanted me to either be a doctor, dentist, lawyer, accountant, or pharmacist, right? Same here. And and because I was relatively okay at English and and not so good maybe at the sciences, they said, Well, you know, you'll be a lawyer. And and in our system, in the UK system, you have kind of five choices for your university that you want to apply for. And four of them were law, different higher education institutes in Scotland and the UK. And one I snuck in politics at the bottom. And I got into both, I got into two courses in law, and I got into one in politics. So I had to make a decision, one in politics. So I had to make a decision, and I remember it was the scariest conversation I had with my parents at that point. I was 16, maybe 17, sorry. Uh and the paper was shaking in my hand, you know. I was going to speak to Mum and Dad to say, I don't want to do law, I want to do politics. And I was really frightened because I thought they're gonna bite my head off.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And Alhamdulillah, they were great. Uh dad in particular was saying, look, we need people like our own people. We're under the, you know, this is post-9-11, this is you know, we're in a really difficult space. We need our people to come forward and and represent unapologetically who we are and what we stand for. Um, again, not for the betterment of our own community, but believe for for humanity and the greater good. My mother was absolutely supportive, but maybe a little bit more worried. And what she would say to me is ah, you know, what kind of what kind of job are you gonna get if you study politics? Well it's my mom and talk. And then I like wait, I got I did okay. But my the point the point is, I suppose saying that is my then my father's retort to that was look, if you're really passionate about something, then doors will open for him.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03And so I suppose that's my long, long way of saying that that very advice that my father gave to me that if you're really passionate, and it can be anything, uh you're passionate about hair and beauty, right? So you're one of your partners is is Huda Beauty, right? Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. I mean we love Huda, we love Mona, we love the work they do. And look, they've not even they've not just created a a beauty brand, somebody who you know uh doesn't know much about cosmetics and makeup. Uh the brand is so much more than that. It's social, it's about again uh investment in raising women uh up in particular. Um they're great examples of that themselves. So whatever your passion is, you can use it for the greater good. And that's all I would say suggest that you do is you put your efforts and your energy into what you're passionate about.
SPEAKER_00I love that. Such good advice, and advice that I'm gonna take after this conversation and move forward to continue to build my personal and professional career. So let me stop.
SPEAKER_03Let me let me before you go into kind of quickfire questions. Let me let me turn it around. What's your advice to me? So you're somebody who has done so much and question on the bottom. Yeah, yeah, I've gotta turn it around uh because I always get interviewed. What's your advice to people about how they can maximize their impact? And you don't need to think about me, but just more generally looking people. Because I'm I'm at a transition point.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03A really interesting one that I'm looking forward to. A little bit nervous about, but excited about the opportunity. So I've got so how how can somebody, and uh whether they're at a transition point or they're at entry into uh the next chapter, uh whether it's schooling or training or education or employment, uh what's your advice to maximize their impact?
SPEAKER_00That's such a good question, and I really can't believe the the script has been flipped on me here. But um You know it's funny because I've always told people my life has never been linear. Nothing I've done actually makes sense on paper in terms of the trajectory I went and down, studied architecture for college, did my master's in international affairs and public policy, started off in like the NGO world, dipped down to specifically changed into a very specific organization working on Syria, didn't know what advocacy or activism was, called myself a social architect because I didn't know what else to say, just connecting people to causes. And then being an activist on the streets, protesting for the White House, literally for years and years, and then now leading a maternal newborn health organization, no one would believe that story. Um, but all I will say is I've never doubted the power of my voice. I've truly believed that my voice can move mountains. Like I have full conviction in my ability, my brain, my strength, my fortitude, and my faith. And for me, that's all. And I also am someone who's a very much a yes woman to myself. Meaning, if I feel passionate about something, an idea has sparked, I'm gonna do everything I can to make that a reality. Um, especially after getting like shoot out or advice from people around me. And if they are like, this is good, and they're gonna check my ego for me, and I'm gonna constantly have those checks and balances in, then I feel really good about it. Fantastic. But um, many people have told me, like, you'll never be something. Like, honestly, many people have said, you know, what do you think you're gonna do in DC as a Muslim woman, visibly Muslim? You think you're ever gonna be in a position of influence? And I took all those comments and said, you know what, maybe I won't ever be. But as long as I am true to myself and feel like I'm doing what I feel like God's given me the responsibility and the platform to do something with my voice, then I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna do it proudly and unapologetically, to your point. And so I think um it's easier to shy away from even your own creativity and your own passions and your own full conviction because you're scared of the world disappointing you or failing or making mistakes. And like you said, we all have made so many mistakes. But if there's anything I've learned is that my voice will get me through, and if it doesn't work out the way that I envisioned, that's okay. Just pick it up and do it in something else. Um, but to just lead where those ideas take me. And so that's what even brought me here. It's what brought me to meet you. I mean, this whole thing is when God continues to show it to me with every interaction, every conversation, like, oh, I'm on the right path here, and it feels good, alhamdulillah. And at the end of the day, I just remember like we're all not gonna be here. And so, what are we leaving behind when we leave this world? We leave this dunya, and then what are we looking forward to tell God when we meet him? Like that's something very important to me. Absolutely. I don't I want to be in a position I'm like, I'm very honored of what I did in the world. Yeah, um, it's not easy, but it's it's worth it.
SPEAKER_03That's wonderful. And I think honestly, very inspiring. And I'll I'll give you the script back in a second. But I yeah, I think it's important because a lot of people who who are often minorities, and actually women who are in the majority, who often suffer from I suppose what we call imposter syndrome, right? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00So much of it.
SPEAKER_03My wonderful brother-in-law, uh Yasan Ahmed, and you can check out his content online. Uh he's very good. He's a mega influencer, mega influencer. Mega influencer. He he talks about uh imposter syndrome and actually challenges the concept. But uh what I'd say about it is, you know, I remember the first time I was going to I was invited to a cabinet, no, sorry, a committee meeting at the House of Lords.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I was bricking it. I mean, I was really nervous. I was 29, I think. Oh my god. And here I was going to be grilled by this committee of lords. Yeah. Lots of lord just sounds so interesting. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Game of Thrones sounding. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So here I was, you know, I'd only been elected for a few years, and they were about to give me a real grilling. And I remember speaking to one of my seniors, you know, who'd been in politics much longer than me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And he just kept saying to me, by the way, they're just human beings. They might have a fancy title in front of their name. But trust me, you know this brief better than they do. You know, inside out. They might pick up the papers in the morning. You've been doing this work for a few years. And never doubt that your own ability and your own capacity. Uh and I went there and alhamdulillah again, by the grace of God, you know, it all went well. Uh, you know, I put a few of them in their place, and you know, and people were then talking, oh this guy, you know, he's he's he's he's he's actually um uh knows his stuff. I'm surprised, surprise. So um Alhamdulillah, again, I think it's right, just um believe in your own voice, right? Believe in your ability and capacity. So wonderful advice, thank you.
SPEAKER_00No, thank you. And that was amazing. So some Spitfire, just to finish the sentence. Every mother deserves.
SPEAKER_04Every mother deserves the best start.
SPEAKER_00Every child should have.
SPEAKER_04Oh, I should have said best start there, huh?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I guess you could say the same thing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, no, every child deserves um every deser every child deserves equal opportunity.
SPEAKER_00A beautiful future for community is together. Beautiful. Those are my three Spitfire questions. You did a beautiful job. You killed it, Hamza. Um you know, this was such a beautiful conversation, and I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart because it left me feeling inspired, invigorated, and actually now contemplating my future career in politics, everybody. I'm gonna put it here for the record. Um, if I do ever venture, if I ever venture in, he's on my advisory board in my campaign, but also um one of the people that inspired me to do so. And so um, thank you, Hamza, for joining us today on Born Into, and thank you for talking about how from someone who was inside the systemic institutions that can create policy and resources that support moms and babies no matter what, not just with their start, but also throughout their lives. But you also are now someone who's advising on the outside and building community power to continue to influence those infrastructure and those systems. We just want to thank you for inspiring people here who are listening around the world that your voice still matters, that you are a valued member of your government, of your constituency, but also that you can make a difference in this world and that we need to feel that responsibility individually and collectively and do something about it. So, what a brilliant conversation and talk about equity, equality, and all the different ways that we can build that inside these institutions and also create our own institutions that challenge that and create those spaces that we really want. Being a social architect in the different ways that we are, um, we're so excited. And if you want to support Hamza Youssef's work, please follow him on social media. We'll have his handle in the episode notes for this episode on the podcast. Share this episode, share it with your friends, and continue to use your voice in the best way possible. Be passionate, be fearless, and be unapologetic about who you are, and continue to support and follow the work of EveryPregnancy at everypregnancy.org. Thank you from London, England, you know, for the Scotsman that came all the way here for this conversation. Thank you, Hamza, and thank you for tuning in to Born in Two.
SPEAKER_03So good, Zelda. I look forward to hosting you in Edinburgh.
SPEAKER_00I can't wait. Edinburgh is like my favorite. I used to watch that Viking show.