This Is What Elite Basketball Training Will Look Like in 2030 Becoming Uncommon w/ Charlie Torres

Becoming Uncommon Podcast and focuses on Charlie Torres' coaching philosophy and journey.

Charlie Torres has built a reputation as more than a basketball trainer he's a coach dedicated to developing complete athletes on and off the court.

In this episode of the Becoming Uncommon Podcast, we sit down with Charlie to explore the journey that shaped his coaching philosophy, the lessons he's learned working with athletes of all ages, and what it truly takes to maximize potential.

We discuss:

* 🏀 The difference between skill development and player development
* 💪 Building confidence through consistent habits and intentional practice
* 🧠 The mindset required to compete at the highest level
* 📈 How coaches can create environments where athletes thrive
* 👥 The importance of leadership, accountability, and relationships in sports
* 🎯 What separates good players from athletes who continue to improve year after year

Whether you're a player, coach, parent, or trainer, this conversation is packed with practical insights on developing athletes, building culture, and pursuing excellence beyond the scoreboard.

Subscribe for more conversations with elite coaches, Olympians, sport scientists, athletic directors, and leaders who are redefining what it means to become uncommon.

What was your biggest takeaway from Charlie's story?Let us know in the comments!

#BecomingUncommon #CharlieTorres #BasketballTraining #BasketballCoach #PlayerDevelopment #YouthBasketball #Leadership #SportsPerformance #AthleteDevelopment #BasketballSkills #Mindset #Coaching

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

What's up everyone? This is Coach Richardson with Becoming Uncommon. And with me today, I have the one and only Charlie Torres. So Trainer Extraordinaire, basketball savant, somebody I got to get close with and get to know a lot more over the last about a year and a half or so. So it's been my pleasure to be able to get a chance to connect with him and get to learn more about his story, his journey. And so I'm I'm grateful to be able to share that with all of you today. But uh none other than Charlie. So why don't you uh go ahead and introduce yourself a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Yeah, Charlie Torres. I grew up in Whittier, California, been coaching, I don't know, 20 plus years. Um as I as I started playing basketball, probably like eighth grade. Um, but it was really baseball, football, um, hockey, and then just kind of hooping in the backyard or at the park. And then I just got got hooked probably eighth grade summer to basketball and I've never looked back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

So um for me, you know, obviously uh being in that woody or La Marata Downy kind of area, right? The legend of you, especially over the years, have uh, you know, been able to like we've not only maybe crossed paths, but have so many different interconnected relationships and stuff like that. And so being, like I said, being able to get the chance to talk to you and get to talk hoops and all that stuff, I think you know, obviously the way you think about it and see it is a lot different. I um I really appreciate the the level of like insight you have with not just the development, but like how to respect and enjoy the journey of being a basketball player, sure, like being an athlete, and you know that's something that just kind of like radiates from your authenticity and just like the depth that you see the game. But so, like who were some of your biggest influences with like your insight in basketball, training, coaching, the whole thing?

SPEAKER_00 1:58

Well, it's funny. Uh Kenny just left. But Kenny Kenny played a Long Beach poly, and that was like like one of the biggest influences ever. You know, like that's why I'm like he was always like, Hey man, you want to shoot? Hey, you want to get wanna play ones? Like, he really showed me like the Long Beach LA culture because I only knew like the wittier culture, you know. And like the most hoop culture I knew was probably like Santa Fe Springs, Norwalk, Downey area. Wasn't really like La Morata really didn't have a basketball culture like that. So as uh as I graduated and I went to go try out at Long Beach City College, that's when I met Kenny, and then Kenny pretty much introduced me to the world, and and just like high-level guys, like you know, his his teammate went to Missouri, was he might have been a McDonald's all-American, Wesley Stokes. So got to work out with Wesley, got to play with those guys, you know, like um Shay Cotton, Les Norman. Um like it was, I mean, I was like what 5'9, 120 pounds at the time, like working out with like real guys. Yeah. First time I ever really been like, you know, forearm shiver to the throat, you know, like like real like hoop shit. So yeah, I mean, that that was just the journey, and I I like the word you you used, uh authentic. Like that's all I've ever known because I I was around real real ones, and that's that's kind of like all I try to implement. Like just be you. Like whether that's you being a dork or corny or you know, like a real hood dude, whatever it may be, like just be authentic. That's all that's just be yourself. Like, I want I always wanted the gym to be a safe place for for for everyone.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

So, yeah, because like I look at you know um the world of sport now. I think back like when I was trying to pretend to be a basketball player back in high school, and I look at it now, it's like dang, like you mean if I would have practiced shooting, I could have been a better shooter. Like, is that what you're telling me? Like, I like that whole concept, it was so novel. Like, I had it, my 15 foot, I was good. You stepped out, then it got real shaky. But didn't I mean no one said hey you gotta get up a hundred shots a day? Like no one said those things. We just like trained hard and just so like watched Anwin mixtapes and things like that. But so get like when did you feel or like really feel that like how to step into that trainer space, like when it comes to kind of taking like player development to the next level? When did that come about for you?

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Well, I mean, honestly, the only the only training I knew was from like your coaches, you know? Yeah, yeah. And like most of the time, like they didn't they can only teach you a few things. Like my high school coach, um my freshman year when I went to Cal High, he was big on reverse pivots, so everything was reverse pivot. Um and like I I was a street ball guy, you know, like that's how I played. So and and I got like skipped to my loo, I watched all this all that stuff, so I was really into that stuff, but he hated it, you know, he hated all that stuff, but I I took the reverse pivot from him. Um luckily like Eddie Jones was my favorite player on the Lakers, and he used it a lot, so that made it cooler for me to learn. And then um, like from freshman year, I ended up going to La M Rada my junior year, and then my coach uh taught us the rocker step, which I was able to implement at the end of my reverse pivot. So I could reverse pivot, and then now I can add a rocker step. So that was like my kill move out of our out of our offense. Like they gave me the whole right side to kind of work. Uh and even though I didn't like shooting going right, I like shooting going left, but I could out of the out of the rocker step and out of reverse pivot, I could take one dribble and get to the cut. Like that was easy, regardless of who was in front of me. Um but then things got a little more complicated, you know, playing against real guys in college, um, and and not really being able to put on weight and trying to figure out how to slither by guys and take take better angles through contact and more physicality. Um, I want to say it was 2004, 2005. I started working out with the with the strength guy, his name's Mike, and um Mike invited me to the Nike top 50 girls' camp. And Ganon Baker, who's like the OG of trainers, was doing it. And Ganon took a liking to me, still super relevant, still doing his thing now. And Ganon's one of those guys, like, I don't like doing camps because I would do camps with Ganon in his prime where there was like 500 kids, and he would just be all over the place. And it was like, I was like, yeah, I can't really, I can't sustain this. And this guy was doing it at like 30 and 40 years old, now he's doing it at like 50. But um, yeah, I learned a lot of stuff about how to how to work with groups from Ganon, um, how to maximize one basket for like 10 guys or 15 guys. He was really good at that. Um I think we had six hoops, I want to say six hoops at the American Sports Center. There was like 400 kids. It was it was nuts. But he was working the room, like I've never seen anyone do it. Um, and I remember kids flew in for that camp, they're taking notes on their notepad, and I was like, shit, I'm I was like 20 years old, you know, trying to figure out college and I was taking notes, you know. So just the everyone was driven and and wanted to like develop their game, but we didn't know how. And Ganon was the one that kind of like showed showed me how to put things, put workouts together, and then I would put my own creativity to it, and then um, and then the shooting, then like shooting just kind of took off, you know. So as as the game was evolving more to shooting, like that's when I was like, alright, like how can you get a three-pointer off within like you know, a couple seconds or within two to three dribbles or one dribble? So um, yeah, the shooting. Um I went to Cal State East Bay, and my my roommate Shay, or my my best friend, he's now training in Irvine, um he was like a science guy with shooting. Yeah. So um he kind of he kind of tweaked my shot. I showed him how to dribble, he showed me how to shoot. Yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_03 8:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

And then yeah, we've just been running with it, and we still have phone calls every, you know, once a week, twice a week, sometimes just talking about shooting or talking about different drills we're doing, what we're doing. I think Shea probably had like three guys in the NBA draft this year. Um yeah, we've probably worked with, I don't know, 30 different guys that have been drafted lottery or top 10 or 20, whatever. But yeah, um shooting's taken over, and that's that's I mean, I know that's what you were talking about, or you wanted to kind of get into, but yeah, you're totally right. Like, like if I would have, I wish I would have I shot a lot of threes in high school, I was lucky, but when I got to college, I couldn't figure out how to how to sustain those threes and how to how to manipulate the game into still getting those threes within the offense. Like when I was at La Mirada, I pretty much had to take the the bulk of the shots, and I still didn't looking back, I didn't take enough because I shot really well. I should have probably shot more, but that was always kind of the challenge. I didn't figure that out probably until I was like 27, 28, is like how to pick and choose when to shoot, what's a good shot, how to manipulate the game, how to get the big guys involved, how to keep everyone happy all at once while still being able to shoot, you know? Yeah. So that that was um that's always been a tricky push and pull factor. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

But no, yeah, taking it e even a little bit further, like that's that's kind of what I like. I like because you know, with for me with coaches' education and in you know, um doing a lot of that stuff, like biomechanics, um, and I don't even know if it's relevant. I don't know if you ever looked at like the Magnus effect of like this rotation of the ball, yeah, and how it controls the arc and things like that. Like I really got into that, obviously, you know, um not for myself, but for my son. Yeah, you know, kind of looking at how that all that all that works and comes together. But what was like I guess your epiphany when it comes to shooting? Like what really when you said like when you were collaborating and things like that, what's what probably like one of the biggest like aha moments?

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Man, I was actually just telling the boys this. I mean, I used to be like a right side shooter, John Stockton was like a body type that I always thought, like, oh okay, if he's doing it, I can do it. So I tried to shoot like him. Um so as I was doing that, uh Shay was like, hey, like look at all the really good shooters, they're kind of up the middle. Ray Allen, um you know, Jerry West, um even Larry Bird, it was just higher, but it was up the middle. He brought it up the middle. Um, Steve Nash might might have already said him. But like after after seeing those pictures, like of just their set set point coming up the middle, I was like, damn, I gotta go from here and and move it to the middle. That was like a big move. But I mean, still as well as I was shooting, which is probably like you know, 40-41% from three, which is pretty good. I went I made a big change from here to here. And um I think I shot like 44, uh, my first year playing professionally. And I mean it was it was in within like three months that I had changed my my whole mechanics. So a lot of what I tell these guys is like you know, being uncomfortable is like it's good, like it's a good thing. Like if you're if you're starting to get it, like you can always tweak. Yeah, and that that was one of the things like when I worked at the Kobe camp, which was right after the girls' camp, probably two or three weeks later, like that was the top 40 shooting guards in the nation. But Derek Rose was in it, uh Tyreek Evans, TJ Warren, I don't know, there was like a bunch of dudes in it, like the Martha Rosen, they were all in high school. But um one of the things Kobe Kobe talked about was um like pretty much growth and like trying to like even though you're like on top of your game, like try and push that envelope. And um one of the lunch sessions, he talked about a story from Tiger Woods. And uh Tiger just won his first master's best round of golf he ever played, and he calls up his caddy and it's like 2 a.m. or something. He's like the caddy's all worried, you know, because Tiger's still like a kid. He's like, hey man, you alright? And he's just like, hey man, like no, like we gotta get back to it. Like tomorrow. I wanna change my swing. And he's like, Tiger, you're tripping. You just played the best round of golf ever. Like, and you you won it, you know, you're the youngest guy to win the masters or whatever. I think it was a masters, but um he's like, nah, I can get better. Like, let's let's dial it in. I wanna change my body. I wanna change my swing. I wanna like guys that are you know, what do they call it? Rage to master. You know what I mean? Like guys that are fanatical about about you know pushing the envelope, like that's how I want to be. That's that's always like if I'm at home, yeah, I'm watching a game, yeah, I might be having a beer, you know, being a slob, but like I'm always still on my computer, you know, watching a game, as I'm taking notes, whatever it may be, um I just want to be progressive. Like I just want to keep keep trying to figure out ways that you know, like, you know, Sean that was out here, you know, smaller guard, weighs 140, plays Woody or College, and then he's shooting with Josh King, who's you know, 6'2, can shoot the lights out, but is not a really good drill shooter, but a really gamer. Yeah, you know, and uh, and like that irritates the hell out of me. You know, gamers irritate the hell out of coaches, right? So um, but that's what I'm trying to do with Josh. Like, hey man, like uh I want your shot to look perfect. Like I want it to, you're already a really good shooter. Like, let's perfect it, let's fix your feet a little bit, let's make it make your shot look a little sexier. Um and and Sean has been more open to it, you know, the past month. I think he's made a huge jump, but that's what I get off on. I I just want to I just want them to realize what they're capable of because I had no guidance, I had no coaching, you know. I had to learn from the homies at the park or the gym, you know. These guys actually have like real coaches and real people that you know have already been through it and are trying to help them. Like I didn't have that, you know. So I just tried to do that for them.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Yeah, that's where it's tough because um one thing that I think about like for you, especially working with like potentially high caliber athletes, people that have had success, but they're like trying to get to the next level, and what I'm realizing now it's gonna get harder, and it is getting harder. Yeah, but like how have you gone about kind of taking that athlete, whether they've achieved at the high school, college, or pro level, is like, no, we gotta we gotta tune it up. Yeah, like because I'm sure there's like resistance. So, how do you go about kind of approaching that?

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Well, at this point, I don't I don't really uh I don't take resistance that well. Like it's like hey man, you either want to work out or you don't. Yeah, and I'd rather work out with you know lower level guys if that if that makes sense. Like if if it's you know like clay was already clay before I started working with him, you know. Like, I mean there's things we we did that I I think you know we really were detailed in and getting him to that level, but he already I mean he had a lot of really good discipline in his shot and you know he's 6'7, 6'8. Um but getting someone like like your son, like Sean, like Josh to play at the highest level, like that's what really, really motivates me, because like I'm I was one of those, you know what I mean? Like I I really take pride in in getting the underdogs to where they want to go. But with working with you know someone like Klay Thompson and Aaron Gordon, like I learned a lot from them, you know, like Klay taught me a lot on shooting, even though he doesn't even he can't really talk about it. You know, he's not one that's gonna really dissect his shot. But one of the things Klay's elite at is not complicating it, you know, he stays out of his own way, you know? And even you know, working with Kevin Durant, like nobody's gonna tell KD how to change no one's gonna change his shot. And that was one of the like he'll say all the right things to be coachable, to make the coach feel like he's a part of it, but like he's not, you're not gonna tell him how to shoot. People have been trying to change his shot since he was 12. He's not gonna listen to you. You know, that's funny. Yeah, but he'll let you think that you are, yeah. Oh, yeah, like that coach? Yeah, yeah.

unknown 17:41

Nah.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

K KD, I mean, he's seven foot with a seven, two wingspan. There's no way he's gonna align his ball here. Yeah, his arms are too long, it's putting it in front of the defender. Everything is keeping it away. So it's unique. Uh footwork, I learned a ton off of Clay because a lot of his shots are running away from the rim and then turning back toward the rim. So his his feet were his feet are amazing. But even then, he'll get a little too wide sometimes, he'll get a little, you know, too on the right side. Uh, but that's from different people, you know, trying to tweak his shot, which I never I mean, his shot was always super tight and compact, like gorgeous. I don't know why you'd want to mess with that. So, but you know, coaching, gotta get out of your own way.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

Yeah, because like I'm I'm having an interesting time kind of like seeing what the future is gonna hold because there are gonna be so many skilled individuals. Like what that whole breaking point, usually I get I can say when we were coming up, there was a clear difference. Like, this guy's super athletic, this guy's super skilled, this one's a little bit of both. Now it's like everybody's skilled, everybody's can everybody's shooting, everybody's you know, maximizing athleticism. So it's like that that that very clear line from different players, especially coming out of high school, is getting so blurred. Like, where do you kind of see the training game going, like maybe in the future, as like you know, left hand? I mean, I could still there's still some really high people like that have a hard time with their op tank, right? But we'll that's a different story for a different day. But they're coming in already skilled, they're coming in with these things. Like, like, where does that training space now go?

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Um, that's a great question. What I see as the separator is are you easy to coach? Are you showing up on time? Are you good with your teammates? Are you good with everyone else in the gym? Okay, you know, staffers. Um I mean, I don't I don't really know firsthand, but like Jalen Brown seems like he's a lot to handle. You know, just being in, you know, you're with these guys for nine months from usually 7, 8, 9 a.m. to to lunchtime. So six hours, you know, if if if you're complicated, it's it's annoying after two months, especially if you're not winning a championship. Everyone puts up with Ron Artest shit and Lamar's whatever Lamar had going off the court, you know, Kobe being super driven and and um wanting conflict a lot with his teammates, but but like they were getting results. So when you know, like the the page is getting turned so much faster now that if you're not getting the result, dude, we're paying you so much money, like we'll just everyone's expendable, I feel like, now if you're not if you're not getting down to it, you know. Um so those are the guys that end up, you know, I saw I just saw something on um uh there was like a a chart for Navy SEALs, and it was like skilled and tactical, and then um the other bar was um uh can you trust him? Right? Do you trust that guy? So they want to take guys that are trusted and skilled, and they'll lower the margin for skill, but if if as long as it's the trust is high. They don't want to work with guys that that are super skilled at the highest, but aren't have the lowest trust. And that's that's what I feel like, you know. I mean, this is I mean the level of basketball that that you know we're we're coaching here at UIBL Scholastic and Veritas, like it's uh this is it's crazy. You know, this is like airborne rangers, Navy SEALs, Delta Force, like those are the kind of kids that you know we're looking for. And if you can if you can be trusted and bring it every day and you're reliable, that'll overcome the skill stuff.

SPEAKER_02 21:59

Yeah, that's Because so what I'm just what I took from that is like use the training and the monotony of you make make sharpening your skills and doing that, but then all the while like teaching accountability, like you said, like trustworthiness, how to communicate, you know, like leadership within it, like use the the complexity of training and maybe even like I said, the monotony of like the day after day, the grind to build those like internal traits that are going to maybe help them transcend when it gets to that hard time or that next point. Yeah, that's that's um because like with coaching and training, it's just it's more than just like the the skills and stuff. And that's where I've always appreciated like and noticed with you is you make it to where it's practical. And I've seen a lot of trainers just do like skill work, yeah, that isn't necessarily applicable to the game. And and like that's that's that's always been like kind of a rub for me, yeah, for a while. Like, and I'm not even in the space like that, but I can see like there there are trainers out there that will go through the motions and teach like combos or do different things that and they'll they'll say it's applicable, but it's really not.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Yeah, it it's I was lucky. I got to go to Europe in 2010. And that that was like you know, training with Ganon. I mean, if you have one hoop and you have 10 guys, they all have to have a ball. You know, there's not enough ball to do a workout with that many people. So everyone has a ball, everyone's live dribble. We're doing a lot of a lot of combos, a lot of creative finishing, but there wasn't much passing going on. There wasn't, and you weren't shooting really like shots that applied in your game. Like if I was 5'8, like and I got to the paint, uh, maybe a floater, but most likely a kick out, you know what I mean? Yeah. So, and and the groups would be kind of all over the place. You'd have, you know, a 6'8 kid who's maybe a five, or a six-five kid that's maybe a shooter that doesn't dribble that much, and then you have a point guard. So I think with with that, I always tried to like make it um do something that was would translate to all three of those positions, you know what I mean? Like, what how can I trim the fat on what everyone needs to work on? And then getting back to Europe, like I went to Europe with a 12-U team, Oakland Soldiers, and we had like three high major kids on that team, and probably six Division I, maybe two Division II kids out of all the 12-year-olds. So we get to Italy, and um, you know, yeah, we're fresh off the flight, but they're 12. You know, they don't really care. They probably slept the whole time, I don't know. But we get off the plane, the next day we play them. It's the best team from Italy, and they scored on every baseline out of bounds, every side out of bounds. They played positionless five-out basketball, and they kicked our ass, ended up winning by like six. And I and these kids were 12. We probably had, I think we had three or four dunks in that game, as 12 of you. Like monster dunks, too. But they beat us. So I and I saw it as it was dumb, I watched them warm up and I was like, this isn't gonna be as easy as we thought, you know. Um, and then I I met with their coaches after, and I'm like, I gotta watch you guys practice. And then they're like, oh, well, the the men's team, the men's pro team is practicing twice a day, too. And I was like, I gotta watch them practice. So they did uh the kids' team, what they do really well in Europe is they they play positionless basketball in this 2010, 2011. So they're teaching five out or positionless bounce, maybe four out for a round one, but there was really no ball screens, and uh they just played off of each other and they really didn't shoot threes because the three-point line was the feeble line, so it's pretty deep. But they just maximized paint touches off of the shot clock or or you know, bad defense. You know, they punished the defense really well. But what they did was um they warmed up with five-on-five no dribble, and it was for touchdowns. So, like if you got the ball past half court, you got a point. And if the other team going this way, got the ball past the baseline, they got a point. And they play up to five. They also had lanes. So if you it was you versus me, uh whether you were on offense or I was on defense, we had to stay within this line. Uh the next group had to stay within that line. So we had to stay, we had to L cut to get open the whole way down in order to score. We had to stay within these lines. Then they broke it down. It was uh it was five on five, you could set screens, no on balls, you still couldn't dribble, but you can go deep, you can cut across, you can set a screen. So they played uh no dribble that way. Um and then I went to go watch the men. So they basically played like soccer, right? Yeah, so then I went to watch the men practice. They did five on zero offense for two hours in the morning, five on zero sets for two hours, then they shot. Or I think they warmed up in shooting and then they shot after two. Uh then the evening, they did one hour of those sets, and then the second hour they implemented uh dribble drive out of the set didn't work. How can we get an advantage? Driving kick, drive kick, drive kick, swing. And I came back from Europe and I I told my buddy Shay, I said, We're fucking up. We gotta change everything we're doing. He's like, Why? I'm like, the ball handling shit is not it. You know, you're I saw it then, Europe was starting to catch up, and we just teach it backwards. Here we teach, you know, when you're five, six, seven years old, like how to play with the ball.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

Yeah, get that thing on a string, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

How to shoot bad shots, how to play at a pick and roll, and then when you're 14 and you go to high school, now the high school coach has to teach you how to play with five other guys. And now you have habits that you've been building since you were either eight, you know, all the way up, and though it's it's hard to learn how to play without the ball, you know? So that's that's what I or like we we just started to really kind of work on. Um you know, when I was coaching at La Merata for um I don't know, 2012 to 2018, like I remember the first 2012 year we couldn't break a press and we had to run like the white guy press break. I was like, bro, this is too stressful. So we started doing the no-dribble every day. It was nasty in practice, it was terrible. It actually got you in shape. And then two years down the road, when those freshmen were juniors, we won state. Uh, I think we were the only public school to do it, and we never ran a press break. It was just like take it out quick and just advance it down the court. Yeah, you know, and now the press or whatever the press may be, whether it's man, a diamond, whatever it may be, like they they didn't know how to guard it because it was so abstract, you know. And shoot. We were also super structured once we got past half. Yeah. Um, when we weren't playing out of transition, but I mean we just I don't know, it was like a perfect storm, honestly, the way it all worked out. But yeah, that's kind of how I've been seeing it. Like we're just backwards here.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

Yeah, well that's yeah, that's it's always um, it's always a thing, right? Being able to or having the willingness to evolve as well. Because like a lot of people, they think this is how I've been doing it, and this is how it's gonna go, and I'm gonna keep doing it the way I do it. And it's tough because especially if something's been working, like we talked about, right? Like, how do you push that envelope to try to take it to the next level? And um, so another thing I wanted to know, just like from your perspective, just like looking at you know, like high school basketball as a whole. Um you know, obviously we're we're in California and Southern California, and just the climate of not just girls basketball but boys' basketball, the popularity's growing, things like that, you know, the the whole the concept of what the NCAA and that's like uh you know you know changing every day. But you've seen these players, you've seen the the these guys when they're 11 kind of come all the way up, and you've seen different, like I guess, versions or generations of it. Um, what is something that maybe like a kid that's about to go into middle school, yeah, what does he probably need to know for that next tick? Like say he wants to be in that next realm and and be considered like what is something that they should be thinking about?

SPEAKER_00 31:08

I mean, I think it's it it just depends on the the player, you know? Like, I mean, I think uh like your son, CJ, is unique, you know. Like I think for him, he shot so well at such a young age that that was always gonna be his crutch, you know what I mean? Like his ability to shoot. So because he was such a good shooter, um he was people were able to put him in in the corners or use him as a shooter only. Whereas like his, you know, what we did with him this year was like teach him how to play out of the ball, like live dribble, teach him how to make plays. Um so it's it's it's difficult, you know, unless you're 6'4, 6'5 like Brayden Burries, you know, like he could he could play off the ball. He could play at a mid post, he could play with the ball. So he's at a at a size where he can kind of do everything, and that's what they did until he got to college. Now it was like he had already done that. Yeah, he'd already played off the ball. Um, but now he's doing it with a little more structure, a little more, um, a little more urgency. And I think that's the key. It's like if you can instill urgency in whatever you're doing on the court, like having gym time is in it's like crazy to me now. Because I like I used to have to break into gyms, you know? So like we're here on a Friday, and you know, there's guys in here, but like I just don't understand how it's not packed, you know. Like I it blows me away. Like, if if anyone in my Rolodex hit me, like, yeah, bro, I'm here. Slide, not a big deal, come in. And whether that was putting in through a workout or not, like didn't matter. Like, yeah, go play once, play 21. Yeah, no one plays once, everyone wants to set a pickup, and no one plays 21. So that that really pisses me off too. That like uh I think 21 is where you kind of get your balls, you know, you learn how to rebound, you learn how to how to how to make plays against two or three people. Um but getting getting back to what you said, yeah, it's it's hard. It's really hard. It just to me it depends on the size. Yeah. Depends on like where where their skill set is going. Because even if you're a bigger guy and you can shoot, like the way everyone's playing defense now is your s everyone's switching. Yeah. So like if I think back to a kid I worked with pretty young, it was Benny Boatwright. I don't know if you remember him. He went to USC. 6'8. One of the like, I think for a 14-15-year-old, like, just crazy touch and form, and he had a lot of fundamentals. What year was that? Benny graduated, I think 2016. Okay. He played at USC with Shimezi Me Too. Um, they were really good. Benny's body was always kind of a wreck, he always like kind of knee issues, but I mean just had a crazy touch. Um, but because he shot so well, people wouldn't use him around the basket. And he was pretty dense. So now that he's playing in Asia, he plays around the basket a little bit more. He still picks and pops, but now he knows how to like finish around the basket better or through contact or use his body a little bit better. Whereas like he wasn't as dynamic. Everything, everything he did in high school was uh went around his shooting. Yeah. Because he can get a shot up at any time. Like he was gonna contest it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then he'd he'd go up against Stanley Johnson, and then it was like it was a rap. Yeah. Because Stan would just get up under you and like just keep you on one side of the court because he was so physical and strong. But with you know, with Stan, I got to see Stan every day. So like we were constantly trimming the fat of his game. Like, oh, you can't go left and make a layup. Alright, we're gonna work on that. One to two dribbles go left. Um oh you can't make a free throw. We're gonna work on that. Um You're taking too many dribbles. We're gonna keep you within one to two. Yeah. We're gonna give you more more of a bad guy and a triple threat. Um we got shots up every single day, but it wasn't really the emphasis. Like we we warmed up, we did form shooting with him a lot, and eventually, like I think he he might still hold the state championship game record for threes in a game. I think he made nine or ten. No way. Yeah. Where'd he go? He went to Modern Day. Oh, okay. Yeah, Stanley. Um, but yeah, he I mean, then he goes to college, they change his footwork on the shot, then he goes to the pros. Guys are having yeah, it would get me started. But a lot of over coaching. And um I I think that's the hardest thing in coaching. Like, we want to be a part of our like we we we're so uh so driven with what with what we love to do that sometimes we just gotta take a step back, and that's what I learned a lot through through kind of Stanley's uh path. But yeah, I th man catch and shoot. I'll just say that catch and shoot for the youth. Yeah, just work on catch and shoot. You don't really have to mess with their form or mechanics as much because their body's changing so much and it's gonna continue to change until they're 18, 19, even 20. So that that is the biggest takeaway, I would say. Yeah, being able to catch and shoot because everyone tries to do it off the dribble, and every dribble you take before you get into your shot, that percentage is dropping on the shot. That's a good way to look at it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:57

So because like what a couple things I took from that, um hold on a second, let me double check this. No worries, make sure I'm going. All right. Um, I was gonna say like what I took from that is like one, you know, being able to allow them to evolve in their journey because I'm seeing a lot of people kind of leech on to people a little bit. And yes, there's a part of it where it's like protection and then protecting investment versus like being invested in the person versus um, you know what I mean, or just wanting clout, yeah, you know, and that's one thing like you like just you and me just talking off the cuff, like your Rolodex is you know crazy, right? But it's like it's not that your identity is attached to people, yeah, like you're you, yeah, and you just have these this huge network across the world, and which is pretty cool. But that's what I you know I think a lot of coaches and trainers should take away from that is like allow people to go on their journey and be there for them when they need to, right? Because it's it it it would I know for a fact if he was to hit you up and call you and ask for help, you would be there to help them, but they have to go on their journey, yeah, and you know when to kind of allow them to do that, and I think that's the JC guy in us. But yeah, the next thing is uh is just because like you're what I also is like work on your weaknesses, like be aware of your weaknesses, be aware of maybe gaps in your game, maybe have some perspective, but it just kind of you know for me, and I can say this because I'm a parent, parents are the worst, yeah. And sometimes it's hard to you know argue logic versus emotion, and it's very tough to see the where the maybe where your young player needs development and being realistic about that, yeah. Uh it and that's that's a tough one. That's you know, I've never tried to argue the the the whole parent dynamic like logic versus emotion because you know logic's gonna lose every time. And I bet if you were to you know think back, the players that you've seen do well and ascend probably had the best, most realistic support system. And I'm willing, I'm I'm curious to hear your insight on that because that's what I've noticed in my yeah, coaching. But even hearing you say that when you're like, Oh, you gotta work on this if you're if you're not this person or that, you gotta work on these things. I know so many parents are so delusional, and sometimes you have to be to get it, like have dreams, have goals, but also be able to see where there might be gaps in your game.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

And I I like I like more for the player, for the kid to be delusional. Yeah, not for the parent.

SPEAKER_02 39:50

Okay, there we go.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Like I want I want the player to be delusional. Like if you tell me you want to make it to the league, I'm with it. I've seen crazier shit happen. Yeah, regardless of your size, you know. But for the parent to be, I think, and I took a lot of a lot from my dad. Um he he didn't know too much about hoops, but he um, you know, he was an airborne ranger, he was an officer in the army, so he knew toughness, yeah, and he knew determination, and that was that was pretty much the only thing that kept me in hoop. So I think he was able to take a step back because he knew I was driven, he knew I had work ethic, he knew I wasn't like out drinking, smoking, you know, doing stupid shit. And he knew my friends since they were man, since we were like maybe 10. Yeah, he knew all of them. And like whether they were, you know, gangsters or hoopers or you know, whatever it may be, like he knew them and he knew that nobody was ever gonna derail my path. Yeah, you know, so I think it's it's easier to be a parent when when you know your kid is tough and he has work ethic, because now you just know like at the end of the day, at least he's yeah, at least he's going. Something's gonna happen. Something good's gonna happen. And I I do I remember that. Uh my my first uh man, one of one of the first summers I was at Compton College, I drove one of my teammates home and he's like, Hey, where do you live? And I was like, Oh, Hacienda Heights. And he goes, Oh, that's by Fontana, nowhere near Fontana. That's over, but I I knew he had never been past the 710 feetway, like never been east of the 710. So I was like, sure, yeah, it's by Fontana. He goes, Yeah, yeah, my people do home invasion out there. And I was like, What? This is like my first week at school, so I was like, Alright. Then uh, you know, I take him to his crib, I'm chilling there because like I couldn't drive home, it was like four, so there's a bunch of traffic coming back. So I was like, I'll just kick it. You know, whole family's smoking trees in the house, eating while smoking. And I've like never seen anyone smoke in front of their family before, so it's like tripping me out. And then I got I drove home. I got home at like eight. You know, I just kind of went home to to eat, and then I was gonna go back to 24 hour fitness. And my dad was like, like, hey, how was I today? And I was like, Pops, I'm gonna be fine. I was like, just just know, like, there's there's levels to this. Like, I thought I had it bad because like I'm stronging for gas money every day. Like, some of the guys I was playing with, like, had nothing. They had no support. You know, they were basically from ground zero trying to make it, you know. And here I am, like, you know, they might have they thought I was rich. You know, like everyone on my team thought I was rich. They thought I had bread, I had a car. I was the only one with a like one of two guys on the team with a car. You know, I I had a dad, I had a mom, you know. Um, it's like anything, you know, everyone thinks like behind closed doors, like everything's all good on social media until you, you know, you're living in the same house and you see how things are going. But I I remember that. My dad was like, What do you mean I'm gonna you're you're gonna be okay? I'm like, Dad, I'm gonna be alright. Like, even if I don't make this hoop shit, like I'm gonna be fine. Like, I'm not gonna, you know. Um but yeah, that was that was kind of like he let me do my thing, he let me figure it out, make mistakes. You know, he always gave me advice, but he never like pushed that advice on me. I mean, he wanted me to go to Street Rose College, but I didn't you know I didn't, you know, Coach Kane was the guy recruiting me. He was an army guy, my dad was an army guy, my dad loved it. I didn't like anyone on that team, so I was like, fuck it, I don't want to go here. Yeah. Um and it was one of the one of the biggest decisions that I made that like helped help me learn a lot. You know um yeah, I think I think you know parents parents do get in the way. I know they mean well, um, but the thing that that Drains me is just like the all the talks and conversations we have to have with them. You know, we're like we're so easy to get a hold of.

unknown 44:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

You know what I mean? Like we're accessible. Yeah. So that that's what kind of wears me out. Like being accessible is what wears me out. Because I'm such a nice guy and I want to hear. Yeah. But man, it's it's draining. Like I'm doing a lot. You know, I'm doing a lot. And for the most part, I'm doing it for free. Yeah. So um that part just kind of gives me gets me worn out. And then I don't think that everyone you know, everyone kind of has PTSD from either other coaches or trainers. Yeah. So I kind of give them the benefit of the doubt. But when it's all said and done, like I don't think you understand what you're getting from me and how much I'm putting into your to your to your kids.

SPEAKER_02 44:49

Usually until they leave. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

Pretty much. Yeah. We uh we we just had our our um my 2015 La Marata team got inducted into the City Hall of Fame. Oh, cool. Yeah, and just seeing all those guys like and seeing the parents, and and I would tell all those kids, I was like, Yeah, you guys are all going to college because we we have like four or five kids, and I would tell them, I said, You're gonna go to college, whether it's a D1, and your workouts are gonna be awful. And they're like, What do you mean? I'm like, Well, you have me and Shay, like we do like real workouts, like real skill development. And the first week, they're like, dude, we just did mic in for like 40 minutes. Like, we didn't even do spots, you know what I mean? Like, I'm like, Yeah, it's just fucking busy work, you know, a lot of these coaches aren't coaches, so but they always took that. Like, I I mean, even when they went, some of them went to junior college, they're like, Man, my junior college coach did more with me than my division one head coach. You know, he he he poured more into me than this guy, and and I think the the realest thing is like kids aren't stupid, yeah. They know the real. At least if they've gone to other coaches, they've they've known the real.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

Um, but yeah, it's it's it's a wild journey, man. Yeah, so I you know it's funny because I'm like, you know what? Everybody should have to go to counting college for a year. You know what? Everybody, you're just like scared straight things. It's like, oh, oh, you got a bath? Yeah, all right, you have to go off a laundry for a little bit, or you know, like you have to go be over there for a little bit. Yeah, you know, spend some time off that 710.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

Don't take the laundry, take uh take Greenlease. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:37

Yeah, take the back road into your back. You have to go there for six months. Absolutely. Go there, then come back, and then we can talk. Yeah, until then. Uh that's funny. But uh, so how did you get into because you know a lot of people I think the trainer space, just because the professionalization of sports, especially youth sport, high school sports, has grown so much. Like, how did you kind of get connected with your first like pro-workout? Like training approach? Like training approach, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

Like, how does that like how that actually those both kind of tie in? Uh I was always seeking information. Okay. I was like I said, I was always breaking into gyms, trying to go playing pickup games. I probably had no reason of being in, whether it was UCLA, USC, Cal State, De Vegas Hills, uh Compton, Lombie City. But yeah, those um I would I just man, good luck trying to keep me out of the gym, you know. But um going to all those runs and seeing all these players, I also realized that I could get lucky. Like a lot of what they're doing, because I would see guys like you know, Sam Cassell, Paul Pierce, I would rebound for those guys. Um but they missed just as much as anyone else. Now in games, they did not fucking miss. But you know, they they worked out, they're just as human as anyone else. Uh their size was you know, it would devastate you. Yeah. I mean, Sam Cassell's like 6'5, and he shot shot from up here, he was fast and he would bump. I mean, like, he literally wouldn't even see you. Uh Paul uh Baron Davis, another one. Um, but I just kind of I knew there was more out there to like you, you can teach more to these guys. Uh I think the the creativity that I had to get in between small spaces and wanting to get in in between small spaces, I always said like if it worked for me, it'll work for someone with with with more size, more skill, and more athleticism than me. So I always tried to try to bring that. Um but I I wouldn't say it was it was accidental, but I did seek it out, and I think it was like just kind of like things happen. So um my best friend from La Murata after we graduated, I went to go play junior college. He initially, as soon as we graduated, he started coaching the freshman team at La Murata or the JV team. So um he wanted to be a coach. So excuse me, um he introduced me to Derek Williams. He was like 13, 14 years old. And uh D-Well was on his JV team, and I went to go watch him play in the summer, and I was like, damn, this 6'2 kid's got a chance, you know? And he had really big hands, and he was probably a size 13 shoe. Um, but he had really good feel around the hoop. He was a funny ass kid. I enjoyed being being around him, even though he was like, you know, 13, 14. Like we literally hung out all day. We would go play everywhere. I would take him everywhere with me. Uh playing in men's leagues on Sundays, playing in men's leagues on Wednesdays, and uh, you know, Windward, Santa Monica. Um he'd get his ass kicked, he'd be his knees would be killing him. I'd pick him up on Saturdays, Sundays, you know. His mom is from a small town in Mississippi, Winstonville. She doesn't play no fucking games. Uh his his grandpa was the police chief of the town. He's only raised by his mom and dad, or mom and sister. So we were really tight. Um but yeah, just as Derek started to develop and kind of gain interest from big travel teams, colleges, everything, I was pretty much taking him to practices, picking them up from practices, taking him to workouts. And then a lot of his peers would come work out with us at La Marata, or we'd go to USC or wherever the hell it may be for pickup. And that's how I met a lot of guys. But they were all in high school. Uh Martha Rosen, Clay Thompson, James Harden, Casper Ware, um uh Jordan Hamilton. Uh yeah. So all those guys knew me as Derek's trainer or coach. They would just call me coach. But um just building a trust, like, you know, I was I wasn't gonna take advantage of them. I wasn't asking for money. I just wanted them like, yo, let's go hoop, let's play ones, let's get up shots, let's train, just you know, whatever it may be. Like La Murata was always open. I always had the gym open. Okay, so it was a safe place to go. And there was no bullshit. So no cameras, no nothing. It was just like a hot sweat box, you know. So from there, I think um, and I was still playing, like I was still pretty good, so they knew I wasn't full of shit. Like a lot of times I would I would cook them. And uh yeah, from Derek's freshman year to his senior year high school to his sophomore year when he went ended up going number two pick. Um, and I just kept meeting meeting more people and connecting and you know, just being trusted and and uh being really good at what I fucking did. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:15

That's one thing I've tried to help with a lot of young coaches or people trying to get into like training and get into that world. It's like and you just outlined it perfectly. You have to be everywhere, yeah. You can't sit back and hope an opportunity comes to you. You have to be everywhere, and yes, that instills trust that then you know, like that you have to be at the place to have the right find the right place in time, like, and and it just takes a lot of work. Like, that's what I did when I first started coaching. Like, I went to every clinic, I went to every practice, I worked with a six-year-old and a 60-year-old. I worked with everybody in between. Somebody needed help with something, I was there and I made sure I worked with as many people as I possibly can. And I and I think about it too. I was like even thinking not too long ago, I was like, what would make me or how would I say I evolved as a coach, or like how do I become a good coach? And it's like I'm coaching, I'm coaching more than anybody. I don't think, especially in track and field, those are live reps, like you're getting more live reps. I'm seeing this event more than anybody. Yep. I'm I'm watching it, I'm I'm hearing it, I'm getting feedback, I'm learning how to communicate what I expect from a technical state. Like I'm doing it so much, like those live reps. I'm getting reps, I'm getting up reps at like, and I'm I'm just coaching more than everybody. Yeah, like I I would put it out there, I don't think anybody in the country is coaching more track and field than I am. Amen. You know what I'm saying? That's how I feel. It's like then, yeah, you get lucky and you get sharp, and people wonder like, how did you come up with that? Or how do you and how does it come so easy? Well, it didn't come easy, it's just live reps. I'm constantly doing it. Yeah, constantly doing it. Yeah, and like that's where I think a lot of, especially young coaches, they want to ascend to this. They want to be Charlie now, but they were they're not wanting to, you know, like you said, scrap for gas money and do all that, shuttle people around, go to the gym every day, every day.

SPEAKER_00 54:21

Like they don't get it. Yeah, they don't get it. That's that and and it I mean unfortunately it trickles down because now the coaches don't get it, and then the players won't get it. Yeah, so that's that's the hard part.

SPEAKER_02 54:32

Everybody's trying to look for a shortcut, yes. It's like, well, I wanna I want to have a persona as that trainer or that coach, and so I gotta attach myself to these kids, and I'm gonna find a shortcut way to do it. But what I've noticed is and I've I've I haven't been around the hoop as long as you get as deep as you, but I've watched those shortcut people go like this. Yeah, it's like it will catch up with you, it will catch if you shortcut, it will catch up with you.

SPEAKER_00 54:58

I did it too. I'm not I'm not gonna lie. Like there was a time, I mean with with me training and coaching, training myself and developing my own game from 18 all the way to 28. I was coaching and training at the same time as I was working on my game. So I would, I mean, that's kind of as crazy as it sounds, I would do drills with Derek that he couldn't do. I knew he couldn't make five in a row. Yeah, so he would just end up being my rebounder because I could make five in a row. Yeah, yeah. You know, but it it eventually by the time he was a junior, he was able to do it. It just took time. So I knew it, I knew at the end, the long run, the process, you know what I mean? But I mean it was it was stressful, man. Like my favorite, one of my favorite stories is I would pick Derek up on Sundays for NJB. So he's in high school, I'd pick him up, like, hey bro, wanna help me with NJB?

unknown 55:54

Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 55:56

Where are we eating after? That was the question, you know what I mean? That was the question. I'm like, dude, we'll go to Pizza Mania after. All good. So pick him up, you know, or he'd his mom would drop him off. And uh we'd be in the gym from 8 a.m. to about six. You know, I would work the table, he'd work the front door, or I'd work the front door, I'd have other guys at the table, and then he would work the snack, or vice versa. Yeah. So then we'd have the cash box, we'd take it back to Coach Copenhagen, and then he'd give us our split. You know, so like, oh, here's 800 bucks, sometimes a thousand. I was like, cool, let's go eat one large pizza mania pizza to ourselves. Yeah, yeah. Me and me and Derek. Like, you know, oh, you want wings? Cool, we got wings. Yeah, you know, um, then we'd go to Cerrito's Mall. We'd go to Foot Locker. I'd you know, he gets some gear, I get some gear. You know, I'd and then um and then whatever we had left over just went to gas money, yeah. Or food for the week for like both of us. That's that's how we did it, like year-round. Like that's how, you know, but that's how we survive. That's how we survived. You know, you want to go to USC, you want to go play at Santa Monica? Like, that's you know, we didn't have gas money. Yeah, you know, I didn't have tags on my car for like riding dirty three years, bro. Three years, like cops behind me, pull over, you know. I would I would get off on that exit, you know, whatever it may be. Um all right, bro, cops are gone. Yeah, because I don't just like CJ, bro, he didn't want to get the brakes fixed. Same thing. I just didn't want to lose that day to work out the play. Um but yeah, that's um that was one of my one of my favorite, like every weekend was Sunday, like we would just, you know, we'd go to Pepsi Taco, we'd go to Pizza Mania, um, In N Out, whatever it may be. Like just that was our day. But um, yeah, the shortcut thing, fuck man, it drives me nuts. Because I the first time I coached AU, like the first actual time I coached, I coached a 16U team. I want to say 80% of the kids were from Fresno or Sacramento or Bakersfield. So we practiced at a College of Sequoia every Saturday and Sunday in Tularie. So that's where we were practiced. So I would pick up three kids from here, either i.e., you know, somewhere around here, and we drive up to Fresno or Tularie, and we'd practice for the weekend. They I mind you, I didn't have a car, and I didn't have gas money to get up there. So I'd have to borrow my girlfriend's car, she would fill up the tank, drive up there, they would give us a hotel for you know the kids, because we'd have like a basically a mini camp every weekend. And then on Sunday, they'd reimburse me for the gas, and that was it. Back home, I'd get back to my workouts. I mean, it was a fucking hustle, it was a grind, but I wanted to get my foot in the door. You know, I was so driven. You know, at this time I think Derek was already drafted, so he's probably one or two, maybe three years in the league. And this this team, I was coaching, team superstar, we were on the Under Armour circuit. We probably had five NBA players in there, but two or three that only made it. Uh DJ Wilson, who went to Michigan, who's drafted by the Bucks, um, League Pope, who's I mean, he was an alien, probably the closest thing to Kevin Durant I had ever seen at 15, 16 years old. Um, he went to San Diego State, probably should have left his first year. And then um Marquise Chris. Um and then there was another one who was like, I mean, this was a kid, um I think he was homeless like his freshman sophomore year in Bakersfield, which is not an easy place to be homeless at. So he um he was tough. His name was Braxton Huggins. He went to New Mexico State and then he finished at Fresno State. I mean crazy shooter. I would play him at the five sometimes. And we had DJ who was 6'8, 6'7, who ended up being 6'11, Malik, who ended up being 6'10, 6'11, Marquise, who was 6'9, 6'10, jumped out of the gym. But like, you know, some of these AU games, I was like, man, I'm not fucking with you guys. You guys are too soft. Fuck it. We'll play, we'll play Braxton at the five. You know, we'll play him and Fatai at the four or five. Uh, but I was just so driven to kind of see it and be able to coach it and be able to manipulate the game from a coaching perspective or be able to give these guys details. I mean, these kids were from you know, Central California that didn't have, you know, they they had high school coaches that meant well, but I don't think that they were that season, yeah, you know, or or they were young coaches, so it was like it was awesome, man. It was so much fun. That was so much growth, so much uh like you know, I got to learn from the OGs, you know, Coach Vaughn Webb, LeBron Dotson, Joe, like I had all these guys that were like they'd been doing it. Like these guys basically started the ABCD camp together. Yeah, like these guys had seen everything. So I like the my favorite part about going on the trips wasn't necessarily the games, it was being able to eat with the OGs, yeah, and just listen to their stories. Man, remember when when Bronn gave us 26? I'm like, what? Like, man, remember when T Mac was at ABC? Man, I'm like, geez, man. I had to read about this shit in Slam. Yeah, you guys were like really there. He's like, shit, man, at Joe's house, Joe still has all the ABCD gear in his in his garage. Like, you know, he he was the guy that would pass out all the gear. So Joe had all the gear. Um guys are fucking legends, man. Like, just to be a fly on the wall, like I was like, man. Whatever happened to that camp, that ABCD camp? They're actually bringing it back this year. No way. Yeah, they're supposed to bring it back, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:53

Because I remember, I guess, like, because it looked like all the shoe companies started their own like all-star camps or like ID camps or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:01

And so I actually that that was the uh I think the last year they did it was I want to say 05 or 06, but uh Nike had just got Kobe. So that's when when I did the uh the Kobe camp.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:16

They had just that was the first year they did it. So they they did that one. The Kobe camp was for the wings and the shooting guards, and Steve Nash camp was for the point guards. So Nike had their own. They would bring in 40 of the top kids and then 40 of the top wings. I forgot who the big man camp was. I think it was Amari Stodemeyer. Okay, Derek went to the Amari Stodemeyer camp when he was in college. So they would bring in like 40 of the top college kids with 40 of the top high school kids at the at that position, and they would just work out, play, practice. Yeah, I mean, those those things were sick. Yeah, they were so so sick. Yeah, that was the thing that uh the ABCD camp. Oh man, if you had an ABCD camp shirt, you were like fucking.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:56

Yeah, you knew yeah, you knew that you were that on the level. Yeah, yeah, that was those are good times. I mean Tim Drizzly, like watching him walk around downy with that gear was like crazy. Yeah, because there's only a few, like not everybody got that. Man, no. It was super selective. Yep. Because I think back to like what were the AAU teams around then? Yeah, because I don't even remember.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:21

Yeah, there was SCA, so-called All-Stars, which is the Nike team. Uh, then there was the the team that Tim played on was uh there was Branch West.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:30

What was the was it Double Pump?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:32

Uh Double Pump. Or uh yeah, the Pumps. Yeah. Uh so Double Pump was the camp, and then uh the pump team was the pump team. That was the other Adidas team. Tim Drisdom and those guys played on um Rockfish. That was the other Adidas team, Rockfish. Okay, Compton Magic was just coming up, but they didn't they didn't really have a shoe deal yet. Um Ranch West was the Orange County team.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:02

Yeah. Because I I I remember I I was able just by proxy being around, yeah. I I went to a big tournament with the guy named Slink, he was from Artesia. Yeah, 6'9, 6'10, yeah. Um Keon Kindred. Yeah, uh, Geo St. Lamont. Gio, yeah. Yeah. Um, and I was friends with Larry Cunningham. Yeah. So I was a that's I was like Larry's plus one. Yeah. Uh I was just there for fouls, I guess. Yeah. Um, I forget. There was a couple other like good ones on that team.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:36

Like in the Was there another was uh was Ron on that team from Artesia? Ronald Allen? He was like the other tall one. Tony Roberts was our other Artesia guy, they were all around that same time. That one that sounds familiar. Tony Tony was probably 2001.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:52

He had like ankle issues, probably. If I remember, it was another big guy from Artesia that had like ankle issues.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:58

That was probably Ron.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:00

Yeah. But no, that yeah, that was fun. We went to El Paso, Texas. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um yeah, it was just I was just like I said, I I played my little four minutes. Yeah. Just ran into people. Like I had no, like, we had some shooters too, like crazy shooters. We loaded up in a van and they gave us shoes. Like I said, I had no business being there. Yeah. I had no business being there, but yeah, it was cool. I think it was the pumps, or I think it was associated, something with that. It was Adidas group. Like there was a little snakey dude. Um he was like the coach, like slash, like you could tell, like agent backdoor guy, um, like dark Hispanic dude, but little and just kind of Damn. Um see, I I really didn't I really didn't get in those doors yet. Yeah, this wheeler dealer guy, like I would never forget his face. Yeah, he was always trying to because I don't know if I ever told you um me and Larry transferred out of downtown. Told me that, yeah. Like that was when I thought I could play ball. And I went to I think it was with Aaron Afalo and those guys and Gabe Pruitt. And we went to like a camp. I just again just snuck it in. They were like, all right, forwards over there, whatever, right? I'm like, oh, that's me. Everybody. And I was like, maybe this ain't my yeah. At that time, sheesh. I was like, every and I was strong. Yeah. Just naturally strong. But I mean, it it only takes you so far when you do rebounding drills with somebody that's six, seven, or something like that. It's yeah, that's different, man. Yeah, it's so, yeah. That's I quickly realized that. That's crazy. This is not my well, at least because I didn't put the skill, like I didn't know. Yeah. That just was just I was willing to train and do all that stuff. Just do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:52

And it probably There was no one there to do it, though. Yeah. There was no one there to do it. Like there really wasn't. Yeah. Man, I like I said, I just I just kept being around and I kept willing and dealing and getting indoors. And um, like even I would uh when I was you know playing at Compton, one of the guys that went there, he ended up going to Colorado. He went to Manual Arts. Um Mookie Wright, James Wright. Crazy athlete, crazy skilled. Um, you know, but he was a firecracker. Like, if you if you hit a shot and you talk crazy to Mookie, like he would press your ass. So I would pick Mook up just to go work out with him. So I'd pick him up in Watts, him and his boy Peanut, who ended up being on my team last year, and we'd go work out at different spots. And he actually had a trainer, Coach House, he's the one that trained like Sam Cassell and Paul Pierce and all those guys. Um, but that was the only way I'd I got to learn and do shit like that. And House, you know, we didn't have it, you couldn't text. Yeah, couldn't text. And he would just tell me, he's like, man, I'm gonna be at Santa Monica stairs tomorrow at you know, 9 a.m., 8 a.m. Shit. Santa Monica from Whittier, like, fuck man. I don't know if I could. I would always have to like, like, man, is it worth the gas? I don't know. I could just run the hills here. Yeah, all right, I'll just chill here, I'll just do this. And then he would he would press me, man, you weren't there yesterday. I'm like, bro, like I live far, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:27

Like, I don't have gas like that. Yeah, even though it was probably like what a dollar seventy-five yeah, man at the time. Yeah, that's what I mean. I think back to like just being able to dig in the mic, like change thing, go into the arco, and just like dump a whole bunch of chains.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:44

Yeah, that was and I had I had I would run out of gas all the time because I would try to push the limit. Yeah, yeah. So I had my my red plastic gas can in the back. I had all my shit back there just ready. Yeah, just like ready, just in case. Because I was always trying to trying to pinch it.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:01

But yeah, coach Coach House would let me, he'd be like, help me with this girls' group. And it was all the Narbonne and Limwood girls, they were nice. Like Yukon, Tennessee, all those girls. So I'd play defense on them, I'd put him through ball handling. Um, and you know, like if I helped, if I did enough help for him, then he'd put me through workouts with some of his better groups, and that's kind of how we barter. But yeah, it was sick, man. Sick times.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:27

And so now um, so obviously, like what are you up to now? Like, what are what are some of the things that are on your plate currently?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:36

Um, I mean, this gym really. I mean the Velocity gym, um, coaching Veritas, and then um coaching Sage Hill Girls. So, yeah, I mean, and that's the other thing too. Everyone's like, man, you're crazy, you're doing a lot. I'm like, he didn't know what I was doing in 2005, like you really don't fucking know. So it's it's not that like up here, I'm I'm uh I'm much stronger than I was, and I was pretty mentally strong like when I was 26, 27. But like this sees completely different from what my knees and feet feel. So like I just gotta, you know, like even today, my my uh my elbow was pretty like I had tennis elbow pretty bad today. So I was like, I'm not fucking making one pass today. So I just made Sean and and Josh do their thing. So just being selective in that too. But yeah, I mean I don't I used to wear myself dent, used to, you know, and I that would make me late for a lot of stuff. Um going to Santa Monica, coming back to OC, going to you know, do stuff in Irvine or whatever. Um so now I I try to do like a little bit less, but even the you know the the things that I'm doing now, like it's not that much to me. Yeah, you know, I I I just never try to bite as I've gotten older. I just try not to bite as much as I could chew. Yeah, yeah. We'll manage like commitments, right? Like, you know, like I used to suck at that. Yeah, I would I would say yes to everything. Yeah. Same way. And my AAU coach was big on that, man. Like, I remember he told me I might have been 26, 27, and that's when it hit. And he he called me tuna. Charlie Tuna was like the cartoon. He's like, you know what, Tuna? And he was like an OG, like Fettanano type. Like, you know what, Tuna? You have everything else. Just let your yeas be yeas and your nays be nays. He's like, you just gotta say no every once in a while. I was like, what do you mean by that? And I guess it's in Proverbs, but um he like by me saying yes to everything, I was like always, I would show up late to our game. I'd be there at halftime, right? And it would just trickle down to everything. Yeah, yeah. You know, I never wanted to let people down. So I'd always be there, but I'd be like half there. Yeah. And slowly, I think that yeah, that year probably like was the year I went pro, but you know, and I actually heard something a couple years ago from uh what's the billionaire's name? He's from Nebraska, Warren Buffett. Warren Buffett says like he probably says no 90% of the time. And because he's saying no, he's having more integrity than saying yes and not being able to come through.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:38

So you know, he's he's got a lot of stuff to manage. I can't, I mean he's a billionaire. But um with to me, there's nothing worse than letting down a kid. Yeah. So that that that one really fucks with me. Yeah. I don't like doing that. Um because I'm pretty hard on myself with you know being able to to kind of do do this stuff. And I think that's you know, like you were talking about like like the trainers and coaches now, like they don't give a shit. A lot of them. Yeah. Like they just don't, you know, it's about it's about the the videos on Instagram, yeah, and it's about you know, like whatever the paycheck is coming in. Um I want the work to be detailed, I want the work to be to be real work. I want it to, you know, it should be able to translate. If you're just kind of moseying through things, like yeah, Luca can mose you through shit. He's already he's a savant. Yeah, yeah. Like he can chill. Yeah, you know. He sees the game like the matrix. Yeah. So he can he can chill. But you know, and I actually I heard Brad, Brad's uh, was it a podcast? I'm out of Reddit, but when Brad Stevens was the head coach of the Celtics, he talked about it because Jalen Brown was like, he was like, man, Al Horford, he only he's only on the court for like 30 minutes. And Brad's like, well, you gotta understand, man, Al's like 35, you know, like he's done all this work, he's done detailed work since his rookie year, and we don't want to kill him. We have nine months of the season here. So yeah, Al's work is it's very organized and detailed, but he only does 25 to 30 minutes on the court. He gets what he has to get done, then he goes to the table, he does, you know, whatever his body, whatever maintenance, his light lift, um, and that's it. You have to make up for those 15 years, Jalen, that you haven't, yeah, you haven't uh done yet. So like we're we're that's why you're doing an hour, hour and a half on the court to kind of like you know uh trim the fat on on some of your flaws. But um out here, that's kind of how I look at things, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:54

Yeah, that's cool to be able to have that perspective to kind of um be able to take like the lessons you've learned and then kind of like reverse engineer it to where you can kind of help navigate the future, the the development, and all that. Um, but um my last thing is like what would what piece of advice would you give you know uh young Charlie, you know, whether it's like coming out of high school, um, like looking back, knowing everything you know now, uh, you know, because I I always say this to you know, um, it's like I if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't know what to do with the information. Yeah because I needed some of the experiences to appreciate it. But again, with that being said, uh what advice would you give young Charlie out there?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:44

Shoot. I think I was too coachable. I think I I was like, like when you're too coachable, you almost um there's no resistance. You know, like the great ones have have a little bit of that resistance, and they they understand that like like for my body size, like what I was doing could have worked, but I was too coachable. I was trying to be like the Mark Jackson, you know, and I think I could have fought back a little bit more and done done it the way I think I was capable of. I think when I got older, that's what I figured out. Okay. So I think and and man, I don't know. Have you have you seen In Search of Greatness? It's like a little one hour documentary with Jerry West or uh Jerry Rice. Um I'll send it to you. It's good, but but that that talks about like the great ones have resistance. Like they they go against uh authority a little bit because they have their their savants. Yeah. I really think like like for me being able to play at my size, I I had I had some of that, but I was just too coachable. So um that a little bit. Um yeah, I I also think man, I don't know, man. Fuck. It's kind of a hard one, man. Cause because I just didn't have guidance, you know what I mean? I didn't have anybody that that could really tell me how to do it or how to how to how to network and and do that. I I think the networking stuff, like I could have done better at that, like as a coach, I could have reached out to more people. I've met a lot of people that have re that really good coaches, like savant-like coaches that have reached out to me and I've I've helped them. Um I think maybe like I was probably too prideful in that. So I think that's that's kind of what um I've been doing a better job of now, is like kind of reaching out and I I've been able to cultivate the relationship, but now it's like trying to um trying to grow it. You know, trying to grow it. I think I think that's what I've um reaching um looking back at my game, shit man, I don't know. I just wish I shot more catch and shoots. Yeah, that's that's pretty much it, because the work ethic, all that was there. Um man. Oh, I mean, obviously academically, goddammit. Yeah, I wish I would have done better at school. I hated it. I still hate it, still pisses me off. I I yeah, I don't know. I I I truly think that I maximized everything I had with what I had, you know, so I don't really have too many regrets. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:27

Um not so much regrets, just like, yeah, because like like I said, like when you say we be be less coachable, yeah, like that threw me a little bit, yeah. Because everybody like the boilerplate is be coachable, be coachable, be coachable, but not realizing that, you know, because I uh and I I know this one personally because I feel that CJ, my oldest son, is a people pleaser a little bit, yeah, and he knows how to not ruffle feathers, you know, because like him and I pretty much grew up together, had him super young, right? And he navigated everything and and held on, but he was really good at that. He was really good at just like he knows how to play the game. He's been he's grown up as an athlete, been around coaches, so he knows how to play the game. He's he's really good at it though.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:17

He's he's better than I was at at uh at going against the grain a little bit. Like I wouldn't shoot bad shots. Not that I didn't think I could make them, I just didn't want to piss off the coach. Yeah, CJ doesn't give a fuck.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:30

Yeah, yeah. Like he'll he'll go ahead and keep going. But I that's what I love, that's why, you know, with him coming to Veritas was like I saw that like blossom of him, you know, kind of having, and that's what I didn't, I wouldn't know what to call it, yeah, had you not said develop the res, you know, the resistance within your coach ability and and being able to stand on your own too, you know, and trust your skill, your confidence, your knowledge, and to be able to build your own path.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:57

I mean, it's it's like profound stuff. Like when you hear or you uh when you hear or see someone like Tom Brady, who you think is like the ultimate coachable guy, but like he's literally telling Belichick, like, no, we're let's fucking do this. I got this, I got this. You know what I mean? He's fighting for what he knows is right at the time when there's a lot of fucking pressure on. Like, nah, with me, it was like, nah, coach, tell me what to do. Yeah, I don't want the smoke, yeah. I don't want the pressure, you know. But uh the great ones want the pressure. Yeah, like Mike, fuck it. No one else is touching this rock. Yeah, I just got the steal, no one else is touching it. Just give me space, get the fuck out of the way. You know, and I I remember doing it in men's leagues, I remember doing it in, you know, sometimes in the Drew League, um on my pro team. Like half of the shots I shot when I played professionally, like Harold and the other American on my team, they didn't want me shooting that shit. But it was like, fuck them, you know, at the end of the day. Like it just took me like half a season to figure it out, you know, like I'll get a better shot than you. Fuck you, bro. You know, um and then also it's like the work, the work that you put in, I think that's the biggest thing too. Like, you have to trust that you're doing the right kind of work and you're you're you're putting your everything on the line. Yeah, like it took me fucking nine years to be a pro. You know what I mean? And like within those years, like no one was gonna like I wasn't gonna just get here, yeah, be a pro and just fold. I probably folded for like three months, but I was like a little bit hurt at turf toe. Once I got healthy, I was like, fuck that. We're in the playoffs, like, nah, I'm not, yeah, I'm not folding this time.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:40

But that's yeah, because like um, you know, they everybody talks about like the work you put in helps build the confidence that you have and all that. Yeah, that's uh it's so so funny because a lot of people hear it but don't realize that's what it takes. Like you gotta put the work in.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:58

You have to. I I I I heard uh I can't find the clip. I've been looking for it. I watched uh a documentary on Thierry Henry, right? And Thierry Henry, when he was at Arsenal, he played with David Burkamp. David Burkamp's like I I think Thierry broke his record, but at the time he was like the best player in Europe or in the English Premier League. Can't really tell you, but Thierry gets he intercepts a pass, you know, in in in defense, he's passing midfield, he sees Burkamp, who's like the number one goal scorer, and his like this is like Jesus to him. He sees him making his break, he misses him on the pass. And as he and as he's being interviewed, he said, fuck. He's like, if I just didn't pass it to Burkamp, now I know I have to fucking make this goal.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:49

He's like, the the amount of pressure and urgency he had, because he just missed someone that could have scored the goal, he passed up that. Now I have to finish this shit. And it ends up being one of his greatest goals ever because of that. Yeah, you know, and I think that that's what I didn't. I I was too passive, you know, like I was too passive in wanting to get other guys the ball. And I specifically remember playing a summer with um um one of one of my best friends now, Kevin Lewis, um, who went to the University of Wyoming out of Compton College. But he was JUCO player of the year. Okay. I think you met him at the gala. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Kevin didn't miss a shot the entire fucking summer of pick up, pick up, pick up, pick up, pick up, men's leagues, um, Drew League, Seino Classic, all that shit. I never saw him miss a freaking shot. Every shot he shot was questionable. Like these were bad shots. But he was 6'7, and he had enough fuck you in him to say, bro, like, if you're giving me an inch, like that shit's going up. And watching, like looking back, I always tell him, I was like, bro, that was like the most, like, I've seen NBA players shoot. Like, you had the most confidence and fuck you that I've ever seen to shoot these rages. Like, it blew me away, you know? And by the time I was when I left Compton and I went to Calce East Bay, I keep bringing up Shea, my my boy, but he was on that team and he was just like, dude, who the fuck are you? Because like you don't miss any layups, any shots. He's like anything. I'm like, bro, you don't you don't know how long this took. Yeah. Like, but I had I had to play with these guys to figure out that like they're just as human, but I'm just as good. Yeah. But I had to take my lumps, and I had to take a lot of a lot of failure, and I was so hard on myself, you know, like it took a lot to get over the hump. You know, I was shooting I think I went to East Bay at like 21. You know, it took me a while to get there, you know? And then when I when I got there, I was I had so much fuck you in my head that like it didn't matter. Like I was literally, I don't know, man. I was a maniac at that at that time. I was out of control.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:14

That's because I think when you're talking about it's like almost like because I have this thing for me, it's you know, everybody talks about trust the process, but what if the process is broken? You know what I'm saying? Like we talked about, yeah, there might be misguided, we won't say bad trainers or coaches, right? Misguided or uninformed, but like how do you how does one identify whether they're in the right process or system?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:40

Trust. Yeah. It's trust. I mean, I I I trusted myself the whole time and I had no guidance, you know, and even you and I, like, like our paths were so close to each other, yeah. You know, like Downy to Whittier to La Murata, like your your the route you took was way more narrow than mine. Mine was all fucked up, but we st you know, we're still kind of at the same finish. So everyone's path is different, and that's what I try to tell. You know, I bring up I bring up Andrew Nagy a lot. You met Nagy, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, man, his path was fucked.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:15

Terrible. You know, he's on JV and freshman for like two, three years, and then he comes to us and he has a double-double on Montverde and Cooper Flag. Yeah, goes to the Long Beach Station and now, yeah. Like, but you know, I mean the kid, I I I always I would see how everyone, you know, like even though he's a dork, like they all like navigated toward him. They didn't care that he was a dork. And then his work ethic was you know, like peak. Yeah. So I always tell people, like, he's a professional worker. Like, professional, he has professional work ethic, five-star work ethic. And he's a five-star human. Yeah. So all these guys that were better than him, younger, like he's like, Yeah, he's just he's gonna get him at the end. You know, and and that's that's what it is. I mean, the path might be messed up, but you'll you'll when you're at the top, you'll you get to look down and say, oh man, like, hey, it's nice seeing you, man. Yeah, like hey, you look good.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:19

Yeah, you know, that it's um because one thing I also stood out was you're talking about you know, getting to East Bay or, you know, kind of like seeing like where when you that after those three months when you went pro, just kind of like, hey, I'll take it.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:35

And that's one thing I I learned this having had watched obviously CJ, you know, the past few years. Yeah. It's almost you like, I don't know, even know where I got this. It's almost selfish to be overly selfless, yeah. Especially in basketball. Because you're you're like, well, I it it's almost like I don't want the pressure, so I'm putting it on somebody else. Well, you're supposed to be that person. That was supposed to be your shot. That was supposed to be your pass, or you're this, or you're that, and you pass it up, like it might look selfless, but that was really selfish in a way. And and that's where I was like, yeah, like I kind of I see that that there's where a lot of athletes have to learn that that that balance between understanding or miss misinterpreting being selfless, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:27

Well you you look at you look at all the great shots that people have made, like the big shots, Robert Ori. Yeah, you know, like what uh did Kobe miss that shot or was it Shaq? I don't know. It was one of the two. It definitely went to the the the right people. I think Kobe missed the floater, and then Shaq and Vladi, you know, like tipped it out. But I was actually at that game, but no way. Yeah, I was at that game. But who ended up hitting it? Who was ready? Ori. Yeah, you know, he was ready to hit it. You know, Mike, like, is Mike gonna pass that that shot up? Not at that time. That time was that like that it was too big a shot. Yeah, it was iconic. It was his last shot, you know, like, but but you look back before that, when Mike he would shoot over double teams, he would shoot over triple teams, but like, you know, he got that paint touch and he turned back around and he'll hit John Paxson. You know, that was a big shot for Paxson, you know. So being able to determine like what shot's good, what's bad, which one I turn down, which one I take, like those guys, like they they know when it's their time. Yeah, they've worked for their time. Like, like Luca, man, if he's got that thing in his left hand and he's pushing off this right leg, like he's gonna he can get any shot off. Yeah, Kevin Durant, left hand, any shot off.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:45

Any shot, you know, get there, it's trouble.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:48

Yeah, yeah. And I I I think about it all the a lot. I went to China with the Warriors when they picked up Kevin Durant. We did like nine or ten days minicamp out there, and I was watching these, like watching, you know, Kevin Durant were man, they were doing five on oh offense. Every time Kevin Durant shot it, and he's learning the plays. So they're going off the plays he's just learning. That first day, every time he caught it, he he shot it. No dribble, didn't look to Steph, didn't look to Clay, didn't look to anybody else, whether it was in the offense or not. He fucking shot it. I'm looking around like, what the fuck is going on? So I I I asked the Nike rep next to me, uh Stelly, I'm like, yo, is what's he doing, bro? He's not he doesn't even they're not even letting the plays go through and he's shooting. He's like, yeah. Today he's shooting all catch and shoots whenever he touches it. Tomorrow he's shooting all one dribble pull-ups. Wednesday he's shooting all to the basket. Thursday, it's all post. Friday, he's putting it all together. I was like, you're telling me this guy is playing exactly how I play at 24 hour fitness with the fucking best team on the planet? I was like, there's no way, bro. I was like, no way. I was completely dumbfounded. It was nuts. You wouldn't even let the play go through. Yeah, bro. I mean, and no one said anything. It was I was like, did he tell Stefan Clay he wasn't doing this? He wasn't gonna run any place. Yeah, like they're they're like, yeah, um 77 drag. Fuck it, KD touch is going up. I'm like, what? Like, this is crazy. But nobody flinched. Draymond didn't say shit, Klay didn't say shit, Steph. I was like, oh man, this is crazy. Yeah, and then you think about those plays where like, you know, Clay shoots a tough shot over someone and Steph's wide open. How much bigger is that shot you're shooting? How much more, you know, dang discipline do you have to have at the end of that follow-through? Yeah, you know, like to get up a shot over fucking LeBron or or Imon Schumper or any of these guys when Steph's wide the fuck open. But at the end of the day, when Clay gets that ball and he's picking it up, all he sees is that fucking bullseye right there. And it's the same thing with Steph. Yeah. All he sees is That's why, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:05

That's why that's a different it's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy, it's a different world. Because like, you know, it's funny when you're kind of describing the journey, because like that's what this podcast is. It's becoming uncommon, right? Yeah, it's because I've I talked to so many people and even mentoring young people, they think their journey is just gonna be da-da-da-da-like lined up, A, B, C, D, it's gonna be linear, the whole thing. And I've never met anybody that's worth talking to that's had just a straight line journey. Nope. And there's always gonna be bumps and twists and turns and all this stuff. It's like how you navigate those things is like what really defines, in my opinion, success and you know, developing success.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:46

That's adversity, man. Adversity is the best teacher. Yeah, we're really good at what we do, yeah, but like nothing can nothing can help and teach someone through through some bullshit.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:57

You gotta go through it, you have to, you gotta go through the fire, and even then, even beyond that, like becoming uncommon. It's like how do you lead in an uncommon way? Like for you, you know, I would say you're cut from a different cloth than the average and most trainers and people in the basketball space, just because you are allowing yourself to see it different. You are taking so many different perspectives and and and points in your journey in like applying that, um, and being able to see it because like that's it's I see so many people try to do it, like just follow the X's and O's, or like you know, and like that doesn't like we talked about being applicable, yeah. You just don't see it applying in a realistic format, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:38

That brings that brings up a great point. I don't I don't know if I touched on um Vito, but he was one of the kids I coached at La Marada. I met him when he was 11. Vito ended up going to Princeton uh and then to Santa Clara. Now he works for a hedge fund in San Francisco, but he's top three best guys I've ever coached and trained. 6'5 Mexican kid from La Murata, seven foot wingspan, basically basically played one through five. Every time he played against Lonzo Ball, held him to like eight points. Guy was a freak and just a workhorse. Um Vito, who was like Valductorian of our class at La Murata, he like I've never seen anyone manage time like him. But he would also like it was hard for him to understand that in basketball, a squared plus b squared doesn't equal C squared. You know, he thought everything was a formula. Like if I put in this much time and I make this many shots, it's gonna translate, you know? No, there's bullets flying at you in a game, you know? And and I I told him I think maybe it was his freshman sophomore year, after his freshman year, probably. Um I was like, hey man, like he was asking me something about like why he wasn't getting the results he had with the amount of work and energy he was putting into this. And this is, I mean, like you talk about I mean he was the most disciplined kid I've ever seen. And I was like, Vito, if someone's holding you in basketball and the ref doesn't call it, is it a foul? He goes, well, yeah, it's it's a foul. Well, no, did the ref call it? No, he didn't call it, so it's not a foul. So like that's how this game works.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:32

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:32

What about when you run someone over and and they take a charge, but the ref doesn't call it? Is it a charge? Do you still get your bucket? Do you get your and one? Like, yeah, well, I'm like, bro, like in this game, you're trying to take you're you're trying to get the mo you're trying to figure out how to get the more advantage for yourself or your team the entire time you're out there. You know, whether that's holding, spitting, whatever it may be, you know what I mean? Like you're trying to get an advantage. Like the the there's only you know, in most high school games, you have two two refs, maybe three, but you only have a two sets of eyes, you know. Get away with as much shit as you can while you can. You're trying to win, you know, and and that was one of the things I I really tried to tell him. I was like, man, like try and find an advantage. Try and find an advantage, you know, with and if the ref calls it, guess what? It probably won't call it the next two. Yeah, yeah. You'll still be able to get some, you know. But that that was um, you know, for some people that are super structured, they they think it's a formula and it's not. And I think one of the hardest things for me was to know that like I was putting all this time in. I was lifting, I was eating right, I was doing all this stuff, but I still wasn't getting the results as my peers that were smoking, hanging out late, not putting in that much work. They're just better than me. Yeah, they just like they they got to make more higher level shots than I did, and they were taller, more athletic, you know, more power, all that shit, and had you know what coach liked them more than me. Whatever, what the fuck else can I do? Yeah, you know, but that's that's why I say like you have to you have to be able to find your edge and be able to take what you can. Yeah, I always give uh Cesar Guerrero like a lot of love because I hated watching him just shoot tough middies at St. John Bosco, and even in in pros and in college, but fuck man, he made a lot of them and it took a lot of balls. Like for him to I remember him playing at UCLA with Ron Artest. I was like, fuck man, how's this guy looking off Ron Artest? Like, that's gutsy for a senior in high school to shoot a bad 17-footer and look off Ron Artest. We fucking made it. Ron Art Test ain't gonna say shit. If you miss it, you're definitely gonna hear it. Yeah, but if you're making it, no one could say shit. No one could say shit. Just make fucking make shots.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:01

Like looking off Ron Artest.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:03

It's crazy. It's crazy. Yeah. Like I didn't, I and realistically, I didn't have the balls to because I was trying to play the right way. But also playing the right way doesn't get. I think playing the right way at 6'5, 6'7 if you're a point guard, looks really sexy to NBA scouts and to college coaches, but not necessarily at uh as a smaller guard. Yeah, you have to, you're teeter-tottering, yeah, you know, you know, some of those bad shots that CJ would make, some of those, you know, uh ambitious passes that you know you make. Like, man, some of them some of them get through and you look very genius. Yeah. You know? But when it doesn't, like it's like almost exponentially bad.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:44

Yeah, it's like it's like three times as bad. Oh man, that's funny. I would um you know, to wrap up, I one thing I wonder if you have any advice for anybody that's trying to be like in the in the coaching or training space, what's some advice you'd kind of give them?

SPEAKER_00 1:39:02

I think you touched on it. I mean, get those reps, man. Go coach whoever. Yeah. I I really never, like you said, it really hit with me when you when you brought it up. I didn't care who you were, how old you were, how young you were, um, what team you were playing on, you know, whatever. I just don't that uh it it doesn't it never uh yeah it's cool like seeing Clay be an all-star and Aaron Gordon win a championship and all that shit. That stuff's dope. But you know, they miss just as many shots as you, and like they've all been cooked by by by guys that look like us. Yeah, everyone's been fried by someone, you know. So I don't know. I I think this is the it's it's the easiest time to play. It's the most freedom anyone's ever had to play, and you gotta take advantage of it because the times the tides might turn and go back to three out two in and play this fucking barbarian basketball, you know? High low. Yeah, exactly. So like while you have it, man, take advantage because people are changing. The more Jokic is we have out here, the more three out two in comes back. Yeah, that's a that's a different that's gonna be in Wimby's. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:17

Um where can they find you?

SPEAKER_00 1:40:19

Uh Instagram. Um kind of doing TikTok now, trying to get that up. Um Twitter. I fucking love Twitter, I'm an old head, but yeah, uh my handle's buckets worth on all of them. And then um any questions, man, I'm open. I love talking. I love talking hoop. I love talking uh people that are trying to grow and evolve. Um and uh yeah, man. I just I love talking hoop. I love talking growth, love talking coaching, and I think um anytime you can do it, you should do it. Yeah, you should do it. Whether it's 12U, 9U, like there's nothing better than building up a 12U or 11U program. There's nothing like it to me. It's so much fun. Yeah. As long as the parents are cool, yeah. I know. Yeah, yeah. As long as the parents are cool, that's it. But it's it was the most fun I ever had. I actually went to dinner with with a bunch of bunch of guys that I coached from 12U last night. Um, you know, they're all graduating college now. Okay, one of them's doing summer leagues. It's crazy. Wow. But so much fun. Pretty crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:26

All right. Well, good stuff. Well, yeah, uh, that's it. And again, like when it comes to you know taking that next step, you know, I I think, you know, I really appreciate Charlie, you know, coming and being able to kind of discuss this just because I think there's so many people out there trying to find their way and kind of looking at things and again seeing that it's not a straight line, that there's a lot of different ways of this path, and there's no substitute for grinding.