No Ordinary People - The Kindness Factory: The Transformative Power of Kindness with Kath Koschel

In a world where adversity often seems insurmountable, Kath Koschel's story stands as a beacon of hope and resilience. From breaking her back twice to losing her partner, Kath's journey is a testament to the human spirit's ability to rise above challenges. Her experiences led her to found the Kindness Factory, a global movement that has inspired millions to engage in acts of kindness.

Kath's life took a dramatic turn when she faced unimaginable physical and emotional challenges. Yet, instead of succumbing to despair, she chose to channel her pain into purpose. Her story is a powerful reminder that even in the darkest times, there is light to be found.

The Kindness Factory was born out of Kath's desire to make a difference. With over 8 million acts of kindness logged, the movement has shown that small gestures can have a profound impact. Kath's vision is simple yet profound: to create a world where kindness is the norm, not the exception.

One of Kath's significant contributions is the Kindness Curriculum, which aims to instill values of empathy and compassion in young minds. By teaching children the importance of kindness, Kath hopes to foster a generation that values connection and community.

Kath's journey has touched lives across the globe. Her story is a testament to the ripple effect of kindness, proving that one person's actions can inspire countless others. As Kath continues to share her message, she reminds us all of the power we hold to change the world, one act of kindness at a time.

Kath Koschel's journey is a powerful reminder that kindness is not just an act but a way of life. Her story inspires us to look beyond our struggles and find strength in compassion. 

This episode was recorded at the Nova Entertainment studios.

Kindness Factory Contact Details

Kindness Factory Website - kindnessfactory.com

Kath Koschel website - kathkoschel.com

Email - kindnessfactory.com/contact-us/

Facebook - @facebook.com/Kindnessfactory/

Instagram - @instagram.com/kindnessfactory/

No Ordinary People is produced by Jade Harley, Director of Impact at UnLtd.
This podcast shares the real stories of charity founders driving change for children and communities across Australia, especially those impacted by trauma, poverty, racism, and family and domestic violence.

Every story is a reminder: hope is built one small act at a time.

Brand identity and cover design created by my beautiful friends at Cocogun.

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Connect: Instagram @noordinarypeople_podcast and LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/jadeharley

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Kath Koschel
• 3:00 Overcoming adversity
• 6:00 Founding The Kindness Factory
• 9:01 The power of kindness
• 12:00 Global impact
• 15:01 Personal growth and reflections
• 18:00 Future vision and hopes
• 21:00 The Kindness Curriculum
• 24:00 Social experiment
• 30:00 Overcoming adversity again
• 36:00 Building a global movement
• 42:01 Challenges in scaling kindness
• 48:00 The role of curiosity and playfulness
• 54:00 Love and loss
• 1:00:00 The impact of kindness on mental health
• 1:06:00 Future goals and aspirations
• 1:12:00 Conclusion and call to action

Transcript

Jade 
Welcome to No Ordinary People. I'm Jade and I'm on a mission to give positivity a voice by sharing stories of everyday people doing extraordinary things. They're a reminder of the power we all have to make the world a better place.

This episode is being recorded in the Nova Entertainment Studios on beautiful Gadigal country. I would like to begin by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, the traditional custodians of this land that we're chatting on today. I pay my respects to elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples listening today. I acknowledge their continuing connection to the land, waters and Community and recognise that sovereignty was never ceded. This always was and always will be Aboriginal land. 

Today's guest has lived through unimaginable adversity, breaking her back twice, losing the love of her life and being told she'd never walk again. Instead of giving up, she turned pain into purpose and founded a global movement that's logged over 8 million acts of kindness. Kath Koschel is the founder of the Kindness Factory, creator of the Kindness Curriculum, now in thousands of schools, and author of the book Kindness.

In this conversation, we'll explore her extraordinary journey, the science and power of kindness and why it matters now more than ever. Get ready for a story that will challenge how you see resilience, connection, and humanity. Kath, welcome. 

Kath
Thanks so much for having me. Good to be here on Eora land. 

Jade
So glad we got to make this happen. We're going to start where I always like to start, which is stepping back in time a little bit. Little Kath, what were you like as a kid? What were your hopes and dreams? Paint me the picture. 

Kath
I was the kid that just never sat still. I was only recently, a couple of years ago, diagnosed with ADHD. So that kind of would explain what I was like as a kid, the hyperactivity, not being able to sit still, hyperfixation on things that I was really passionate about. And for me, that was always sport. So, as a young kid, I'm from a really remote country town called Finley, population 1500, and I've got three older brothers, so I'm the youngest and only girl of four kids. So it was always, you know, trying to connect in with my brothers, keep up with whatever the hell or whatever mischievous things they were getting up to. And for us, I guess the thing that always distracted us or kept us out of trouble was sport. So I was just always moving. You couldn't keep me still as a kid. Yeah. Which is...

I mean, you can probably attest to this. kind of like still as an adult. So not much has changed in that sense. 

Jade
Yeah. And look, family, know, is, you know, especially as we start to delve into your story, family is the is the safe place for you. It's that rock, you know, can you tell me a little bit about your family and why they're so important? 

Kath
I think, you know, I've got a lot of education behind me now, a couple of degrees. I've traveled the world, I researched emotional intelligence, I've been assessed with high performance as an athlete and so on. And I reckon my family and mates have actually taught me more about resilience and change management and stress management and kindness and emotions than any of that stuff combined. So, not a lot of difference between me and a homeless person, I don't reckon. I've had lots of one-to-one interactions with those or that demographic of people where we exchange, you know, conversation over a meal and as I get to learn their story I realize that you know adversity is within both of us. The one difference between them and myself is not status or wealth or anything like that it was a support network and I'm not here today without my mates and my family they mean everything to me and there's not one part of me that believes that I'd be doing what I am today and be proud to be doing what I am today without their support. So my family especially you know four kids, two parents still together, working class family. Dad was a cop for 40 years, one of the longest serving police officers in New South Wales ever. And my mum worked in early childhood development. So she went back to TAFE when I was of school age at five to be able to get some education behind her to then go in part-time working while my brothers and I were still at school. So we didn't have a lot of money or we didn't struggle or anything like that, but what we probably lacked in the overseas international holidays that everyone else had.

My parents and my family really made up for with love. So I was very much set up for success at a young age. And I know how privileged I am to say that. I come from a lot of love. No family's perfect. Mine's perfect for me, but I'm sure there were things that I picked up along the way that haven't been good from a coping perspective, but they do mean everything to me without family, without friends. What's the point? So yeah.

Jade 
So it's probably fair to say that at fairly young age, those dreams you had as you talked about how important sport was to you, life dealt you some pretty tough cards pretty early on in your life. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Kath
Yeah, so I only ever had one dream in life and that was to play cricket for Australia. That's all I ever wanted to do. I was just obsessed with the game at an early age, something about it where...

It's a team sport where you got 10 of your best mates on the field vying for that win at any given time. But at the same time, the results of the game can rest on one person's shoulders to hit the run, to take the catch, the wicket. And it's really fascinating sport in that sense. And all my mates, you know, stem from cricket and my best memories in life come from the cricket field. So I owe a lot to the game in that sense, but I wasn't very naturally gifted as an athlete. So I was a of a grinder. I had to work really hard for everything that I achieved.

I come quite close to representing my country. played for Middlesex, so based out of Lords in London, the home of cricket. spent two years there as their international overseas player. And I also played a handful of games here in New South Wales or for New South Wales. And that's when life changed forever. I was 22, no adversity to speak of at that point. Had the best childhood ever. Was always surrounded by love and mates and all that kind of stuff. you know, 20 things had to go wrong on this day and 26 of them did.

So it wasn't like we knew that this would happen or anything like that, but of all things, actually broke my back playing cricket. So the diagnosis was pretty severe. I was told I'd never walk again. I was a paraplegic and I would never regain feeling below my waist after this accident. It was a freak kind of thing. As I said, 20 things had to go wrong and they all did. I had five unsuccessful surgeries every single time. It was, you know, back to the drawing board. Still no good, all that kind of stuff.

Finally, one worked where I did start to regain feeling. And then there was some post-surgical complications that saw me come within about three hours of having my leg amputated. So I had this back injury. I was told I'd walk again. I nearly lost my leg. All this stuff kept happening. the diagnosis after that even of learning myself in rehab for 12 months was that it was kind of more of a safety thing where I needed to learn how to live with these disabilities rather than you're going to walk again.

I don't think anyone actually believed I would. And there I was at 22, very naively in rehab, not able to even shower myself, but dreaming of getting back on the park again. So I don't know if there's something in that naivety that set me up for success, but it was in rehab that I met a fellow patient. We fell in love together. We spent 12 months in that rehab environment and had planned this life that would exist once we finished rehab. And on his last night of rehab, when we were about to start this life,

just put the lease on the house together, et cetera. He passed away via suicide. And at 22, I really just didn't have the skills to be able to cope with those two enormous life challenges. I knew all about mental health and stuff like that back then, but I was so afraid of my own thoughts in those moments. Not in any sense was I at danger or risk to myself, but how on earth do you conceptualize or even talk about those experiences as a young adult?

And I lasted about 10 months before I hit rock bottom and had this mental breakdown. And it was then that I guess I realized I'd spent the first half of my life up until that point or my entire life up until that point being focused on something that really didn't matter. High performance sport, being an elite athlete, et cetera. And, you know, I was proud of that because I reached the level or thereabouts that I wanted to get to. And it was very short lived and all those sorts of things. But

Surely there was a bit more to life than that. And as I then reflected back on these big hurdles that had happened to that point, I realized that there was something really powerful that had happened every time I'd hit this crisis or adversity point in life. And that was the power of human kindness. And so I then became fascinated by kindness. And I'm not 44 now, but I have got a lot more life experience since that point. And the second half of my life has really been...

centered around this concept of researching kindness, its benefits, the power of one small act. We've now, I guess that's resulted in a kindness curriculum, as you mentioned, a global nonprofit that exists in three different countries. And I now consult and speak on this topic around the world. So that's been really cool. From a storytelling perspective, if you want to get all the adversity out of the way, didn't kind of stop there not long after establishing Kindness Factory, which is the charity I just referred to.

I ended up getting into triathlons. I'd taught myself how to walk again successfully after the first broken back. And I was training for an Ironman of all things. I don't do things in half measure. I was on a training bike ride one day with my best friend and I got hit by a drunk driver from behind and broke my back again. Which, you know, I was in a coma for two months. I spiritually probably learned more about myself in that coma than I have most other things in life.

It's probably not a story for a podcast, but if anyone is interested and wants to reach out and understand that experience, then I'm more than willing to chat anyone through that. But that then really convinced me that I needed to latch onto this kindness stuff because I knew it's power. And the obsession has not really ever stopped. That was nearly 10 years ago, that accident. And it took a long while to recover from that physically and emotionally. But it kind of really, I guess, gave me that oomph or that grit that I needed to really give kindness my all and I haven't regretted that decision ever since. And we're probably gonna dig into a little bit of that as the conversation goes on as well. 


Jade
Yeah, so, you know, for people listening, that's a lot. I've heard your story now, what, maybe four or five times. And I think every time, you know, every time you tell that story, and obviously in this podcast format, you know, it's a shorter story form, but, you know, I've heard you do a keynote over an hour. And I think every single one of those life moments is something that could be catastrophic for someone else. So I'm really interested in, you know, the resilience and what part do you think being a, you know, a really sort of driven, aspiring professional athlete, what do you think that gave you? And do you think that contributed to your ability to bounce back or to find your way through out of that adversity? 

Kath
You know, from a physical standpoint, being told that you're never going to walk again, you need to find something in yourself. I think something I'm really passionate about and I explore this concept with a lot of my clients is this sense of playfulness and curiosity. And I was very fortunate enough, I think a couple of years ago, I read this book, it's called The Choice by Edith Egar, who's a Holocaust survivor, a wonderful, wonderful person. She's still alive in her 90s now, is a psychotherapist and you know, explores trauma and all these sorts of things. And we got to meet and I told her why I thought she was my hero and all these sorts of things. And she'd learnt my story as well. And she said to me, the, the protective factor, you know, what do you put it down? So I said, you know, it's mateship, it's family, it's support networks. Absolutely. Those are all important. And she said, I believe it's your childlike nature. And I didn't take offense, but I was kind of aghast with that, going, what do you mean? in my mid thirties. I'm not a kid. Like, but maybe the playfulness we even creep through in this and she said, no, Kath, the difference between being childish and childlike is very different. Childish is, you know, never owning up to one's responsibilities or taking agency or making choices for a better future, which I'm pretty good at, right? Childlike is having this curiosity and zest for life. If you think about it, it was only about a year ago, my godson, who's now five, he would have been four at the time, he'd never been on an escalator. We're at the shops together and they're from regional, that family. so he kept looking at these stairs and they was calling like magic stairs. And I said, well, have you, you never, has he never been on one of these? And like, well, I don't know. I'm not sure. Do you want to go on the thing? And the wonder and awe in this kid's eyes as he stepped on the step and watched it, I was like, imagine experiencing that for the first time, like the curiosity and all, and the wonderment and awe that this kid just had the look on his face. It was just incredible. And I was just like, imagine if we as adults, thought about life in that way, like had this really curious mindset about everything that we do. And I think there's a difference between being judgmental and curious as well. And I think when we find that difference, we lean into people and connection and belonging and kindness a lot more effectively than if we were to go, that person's doing this. And instead of saying like, why, I wonder, I'm being curious about that. like, well, he's a dick or whatever, you know what I mean? And so I think if we can afford to be a bit more curious, think that's given me, that accounts for a lot of my resilience and the way that I deal with stress and so on. As you know, I don't take life too serious. I think life is bloody short and I've nearly lost mine a couple of times now throughout some of those experiences. with that, I think it gives you a greater sense of appreciation for things as well. But I do think just looking through a curious lens in life, can actually help a lot of people in terms of how they set themselves up from a stress management, resilience, perspective, et cetera. But I'm hoping that helps answer the question because I could say the stereotypical things. It was gratitude, which it was, it was kindness, it was, but I don't feel like there's enough being said out there about this curious mindset that we could tend to have a bit more of, yeah. 

Jade
Yeah, and I think, you're touching on something. We're in a world right now where... many people are making judgments based on how people show up, who they love, what they do, what their political position is. And I think you've got that view of, what's going on for that person? What's driving that? And I think a lot of it is fear, right? So there's stats around the brain picks up however many more signals for fear than they do for positivity or happiness. And we have to almost like hack our own systems. have to gear ourselves to be looking for the positive. So I think you've really nailed something like that. So I really like that answer. I want to kind of step back because I know there's a moment where kindness showed up for you in the hospital setting that was a spark to a of the work that you do today. Can you tell me a little bit about what that moment was? Because I think the simplicity of it is really quite beautiful.

Kath
Yeah, I can and I really, I just got goosebumps because I tell this story almost every day. I want to stage my stays and doing all that kind of stuff. And I love this story and I never get sick of telling it because I don't even think the person who did it understands that he's inspired eight and a half million acts of kindness because it has, right? So that ripple effect of kindness is really real. It was after my first broken back and I'd spent probably six weeks in hell. was in and out of surgeries.

And after the sixth surgery, which we kind of deemed to be more successful than the others, was in a consult room in a wheelchair with still no feeling below my waist and six doctors, medical experts, neurologists, scientists, et cetera, had just basically handed me the news. You're actually never going to walk again. As an athlete who's used their body in a way that most others couldn't and spent their entire life moving. That's not ideal news, as you can imagine. And so.

It was probably for the first time in that six week period from broken back to then, that reality really hit me in the face. Up until that point, it kind of felt like I was just trying to tread water and keep my head above it with all these surgeries. I don't think you really, it doesn't set in until you get six people who are more educated than you are and way more experienced in all facets of life, not just medically telling you that news. so I kind of, I didn't dissociate from the moment, but I don't even think I said goodbye to them. I just kind of wheeled myself out of the room. And I got to the elevator where my room was downstairs and I, you the emotion was boiling up and I'm pretty stoic by nature. And back then certainly really battled to ask for help. And I tried to reach the lift button of the elevator in the corridor and

Like I was pretty disabled in this moment. I couldn't really stretch or reach. I was very weak and all that kind of stuff. And I'm reaching for this button and it was, I'm talking like centimeters out of reach, like not far. And if I had a bit more capability, I could have reached, but at that moment it was just beyond me. It defeated me. it was the first time, as I said, in that six week period, I was like, this is this, I'm okay with living with a disability. I do now. I'm a disabled person by, you know, technicality and all that kind of stuff. can't feel anything by my left kneecap and I'm okay with that. But I kept thinking, wow, this is going to take significant adjustment. Like I'm going to battle a little bit here and I'm going to have to learn how to ask for help. And that's a pretty sobering reality to have to face into. And so I just started balling, had my head in my hands and I felt like I couldn't even breathe to be honest, at one point then it just all hit me. And next minute I just, hear this ping of the elevator just went, you know, goes ding. I heard that and kind of looked up and I realised that this man had walked by. Strange, I didn't know him and he'd pressed the button for me seeing that I couldn't do that for myself and I couldn't even muster the strength to yell out, thank you. I just couldn't. And he didn't look back, didn't want anything in return but I got myself into the elevator, I got downstairs, got myself into my room and for whatever reason, I don't know why, it could have been a combination of things but I remember very awkwardly getting myself out of the chair. And I was kind of leaning on it. So I didn't fall over and I looked at myself in the mirror and told myself I would walk again. It felt like he believed in me and I needed to do the same thing for myself. And I think that's what kindness has the power to do for a person. We really don't know what another person's gone through. He didn't know that I'd just been told by six people that I'd never walk again, that I was a professional athlete and that's a pretty big thing to face into. He just saw that I needed help and he chose to do it. And you could say that that's, you know, anyone would do that, but I actually don't think that they would.

There was agency, there was choice, there was a lot of things involved in that. And that's firsthand when I started experiencing, I guess, this concept of kindness and the power it had. If it could help me to learn how to walk again, what could it do for people who aren't struggling? When we think about all the things that you've committed your life through purpose and passion, but also your work at the moment, we're wanting to see a better world, healthier world where people aren't struggling, where people have access to quality, where

We appreciate diversity where we can live a life where we're not mentally exhausted or burnt out or stressed or overwhelmed. And we're living in a mental health crisis at the moment. It is very simplistic form, kindness. It does have the power to change behavior. So all the antisocial behaviors that are going on, et cetera, it's a mood booster. When we are giving, receiving, or witnessing kindness in action releases oxytocin and serotonin, it boosts our mood. It runs through our body like jelly beans do and they make us feel good. And so if we started feeling better, then we're probably going to treat ourselves with more respect, but also the people around us as well. So when I think about kindness and kindness factories role in terms of what it does for the world, very much purely from a preventative standpoint. So we have access to our full brain when we're less stressed, kindness keeps our stress low, all these sorts of things. So it makes a lot of sense when we think about it like that. But in that moment, it was just a very practical leveler for me that I was just like, why have we over complicated life? We've over complicated this thing called living. What if we went back to just treating each other with kindness and decency and dignity and all these sorts of things. And so I think I do simple very well. And that's what I'm proud to be doing with kindness factory and all the work that we're doing for sure.


Come to sort of the kindness factory and how that began and how that's developed. But there's one other thing that I want to touch on because this is another just example of your curiosity showing up. So I want to talk about the social experiment that you embarked on. So I believe this was after the triathlon, was it after that? Yeah, so after the triathlon where you broke your back again. I get to that part of your story and go, you've got to be kidding me. Like, surely you've learned all of life's lessons by now, but someone decided you needed another one. So tell me about this social experiment. Where did the idea come from? And then how did that play out? 

Kth
Well, what happened was I do have a curiosity for life and I am quite a creative person, but it was actually, I'll tell you a story. Not many people know about this one.

As you all know by now, my family are really important to me and after this accident, I had a very lengthy rehab process. I had to learn how to walk again and I had to go to court and face the man who hit me with his car. And that was pretty big for me. I'd never been in trouble, not that I was in this period, but I'd never been into a courtroom, all that kind of stuff. And my dad actually came with me. He was a cop for 40 years and he sees the world a little bit differently because he sees a lot of adverse things that occur in the world.

Long story short, this man broke down in tears in court on the final day and I just felt for him. He made a big mistake in hitting me. He shouldn't have been drinking, which he did. I don't con-earn any of that, but it was a mistake and I make 10 of them a day, as you know. And I just, I went over to him and I said, maybe are you okay? Cause he was visibly upset and he said, no, I'm not. And I said, okay, how are you getting home today? And he said, I don't know. I can't afford a taxi. And my dad was there with me at this point and I said, look, we're going to give you a lift and we kind of argued a little bit. I don't think it was a very good idea, all this kind of stuff, but we did. We get out the front of this guy's house and before he left, he'd never said sorry about the accident or even thanks for the ride. My dad was driving and he didn't want to be doing that either. It was against his wishes to be doing this, so set that up right there. As he gets out, he looks at me back and he says, why did you just do that? I said,
Well, because your actions don't control mine kindness is a value of mine and I would have done that for any other person on the planet I don't want your behavior to change who I am at the core. It's not about that, right? So he gets out and I thought I'll jump in the front with dad and my dad's very very stoic countryman very tough, but very fair my old man like a really decent bloke and We're in the car and it wasn't moving anywhere. I jumped in the front and I looked out the corner of my eye to the toughest man I've ever known my hero and he had tears running down his face. And I said, dad, what's wrong? And he said, look, mate, before I go on, need you to know your mom and I were really proud of you. are. But fuck, Kath, it's hard to be your parents sometimes. And I said, I know, dad. And he said, I just need you to explain to me why we did that. And I said, well, I'm kind of sick of turning on the TV and we'll watch the news or go on a social media. I'm not great at all this stuff. I don't watch much TV or go on to socials. I've got a time cap on my phone, all that.

And we'll see hate in the form of domestic violence, bullying, war, terrorism, name calling, abuse, whatever it is, right? And often as human beings, we tend to respond to hate with hate. And my dad actually, at very early age, he gave me a poster with my favorite quote on it. And it reads, the world is changed by your example, not by your opinion. It's by Paul Coelho. And I said to dad in that moment, why did you give that to me, dad? Like, cause it meant something to me. And he said, oh, mate, I hate to break it to you, but I'm fairly certain I got it for free at work. You've overthought this.

It kind of then led us to open the barrier of toughness that my dad and stoicism that my dad had always had and I felt like I needed to have around him and we really softened into this beautiful lunch that we had together and he said, mate, why are you doing all this stuff? Because I'd started Kindness Factory at that point and I think he just wanted a really simple life for me. And I said, dad, it just doesn't make any sense to me all of this angst and unnecessary suffering that occurs as human beings. Life is hard at the best of times. People pass away. There's a natural disaster going on right now. People have can't, these things are beyond our control. How we treat each other, surely not one of those things. And he said, wow. And I think I started to change his narrative of life because he'd built up these walls around being a police officer and seeing all these really bad behaviors occur. And he nearly killed me, but I got very curious about it in that moment. Why is it that my parents who absolutely love and adore me,

But even they are like, why the hell is she doing this stuff? Why is she pursuing this thing called kindness? Like I don't really get it and all that kind of stuff. And I was just like, you know what? Like I'll go all in here. I genuinely believe in this concept and I genuinely believe this will work. There was not a doubt in my mind, but I basically went onto social media and I just said, look, in a week's time, I'm going to leave my home with nothing but the clothes on my back, no cash, credit card, food or water. And I'm only accepting help, the help and kindness of strangers. So I can't rely on family or friends to get me by.

And it got shared all around the world. Like 10,000 people reached out to help me and I traveled for two months to every state in Australia. Boat, train, plane, stayed in five-star luxurious hotels. I fed the homeless, the homeless fed me at one point I was struggling. And I didn't really want for anything. And it did teach me a lot about life. Also kindness, right? Let's talk about suffering for a second. There was about a hundred people who directly helped me on that trip to give me a bit of cash to get me from A to B to house me for a night or a couple of nights to feed me to whatever it was, have a conversation with me or whatever it was to get me by. And I can tell you a story about every single one of them. And one of those every single one of those stories would break your heart, right? That's something we all have in common suffering because life is bloody hard. All these things happen that are beyond our control. But how we treat each other is not one of those things. And if they could all afford me not through financial means, but just through love or whatever it is that they're providing me in those moments could this inspire a generation or could this inspire the world to be a little bit more just and kind just for a couple of seconds or something like that? And it kind of did, right? I felt like a rock star at one point, had all these people from around the world connecting with me, sending me messages and emails and phone calls and texts and all this kind of stuff saying, look, thanks for the inspiration. I know I didn't help you directly, but I wanted to let you know I mowed my neighbor's lawn or I donated blood or I tied my sister's shoe. I fed my neighbor that they were sending me all these acts of kindness. And I was like, well, this is pretty cool.

That's again now led to eight and a half million people doing so, is, that's mind blowing in my mind. So I kind of feel like I haven't stopped since. I pay my own way now and I don't ask for kindness of strangers and all that kind of stuff. do, I do pretty well in that sense now, but it feels like the journey has never ended. It kind of felt like that was the restart of my life where now it's a bit different. I do travel a lot, but it's more speaking and sharing some of the insights and the research that we're doing at a corporate level or in a community or what the 8.5 million acts of kindness have led us to believe in terms of the DNA of kindness that's now taught in primary schools. And all this stuff has sort of happened since that moment, which it kind of did work, right? The social experiment, like if that's what we're calling us, I still don't know what we call that. Like I call it a journey, but it was bold. And as I think back on it now, I'm like, oh, I didn't really have that fear. now? That's the question.

Probably not because it was so organic and authentic in the moment. I didn't even I remember I was on the phone to a friend and I was battling like mentally I said I'm thinking about doing this and if you ever need a hype girl She's the person her name's Carla and she just said just do it Yeah, right. I think if I nine out of my other ten friends would have gone absolutely not So all the stars align I had this hype girl gone yet do it that'd be sick and I was like, okay cool, so I did

Within about three hours, I've got my mom calling me going, get it down now. Like everyone's worried about my safety and all that. was like, how is it even going to work? I was like, don't worry, we'll figure that on the way. Like we'll figure something out. But it changed my life. Like I left feeling very lost. And I came back two months later with the biggest smile on my face feeling I had a very renewed sense of hope about life.

I felt like I believed in humanity again as well. Like I felt like I needed that reaffirm and with kindness, which was great. And yeah, it was, was unbelievable. I learned more about myself in that two month period than I have the rest of my life combined. It was just, it was incredible. Yeah. I've not a plug at all, but I've written a book about it, which I never thought I'd do. Right. Like I've got ADHD to sit still enough to write a book. Like who could do that? Well, I did.

Which was good, but so it's all very much well documented in that. And the thing I love about that the most is that it's my story intertwined with all of the people that taught me something on that trip. So it was invaluable. Like it taught me so much about life. I think I grew up a lot on that journey as well. Yeah, I was still sort of late twenties and all that kind of stuff. yeah, it was unreal. 

Jade
I mean, look, what a journey. And I think, you you touched on something that was probably one of my favorite quotes, which is, you know, the world that we live in was imagined by us and we could just as easily imagine it differently. And I think, you know, what you're talking about is exactly that. And again, it's that curiosity. So you're like, I wonder if this would happen. And what you're doing is, you know, every single person that did give something to you or supported you or was there is building that mental picture of, you know, of the kindness that does exist. And it's almost, that's the fuel. Look, I want to ask a question, because I think this is really interesting around sort of fate, destiny. Looking back now, because there's a bit of distance between your early days and not that much distance, but a bit of distance, but looking back, would you go through all it again if you knew what the outcome would be? 

Kath
It's a really interesting question. Something I often get asked is if you could go back 13 years before the first break and back. And you get a blank slate. So you do it all again and you don't break your back and blah. Or you have the life that you have, what are you choosing? And I always say that the life that I've got is the one that I'd pick. I wouldn't have it any other way. In saying that, I wouldn't wish some of the experiences that I've had on anyone. It was torturous. Certainly the loss of my partner, Jim, that was not a pain I'd wish on anyone ever. It's just, it's horrific. It's a...

The grief process for me was, gosh, it was challenging. I don't even know how to describe it, to be honest. It feels so visceral and real and all that kind of stuff still. And you get time and distance from it and all that kind of stuff. But I do believe there is a silver lining to anything in life. And I certainly definitely believe that you learn more about yourself through periods of hardship and adversity than you do if life was easy. And that's great to say.

But again, I don't think you'd wish any of these experiences on anyone. So look, I'm happy with where I'm at and I'm glad my life turned out the way that it did and I wouldn't change it for the world because it's taught me a lot. I do always say this to people. I don't know how to answer this question because it's a really good one. I always do say to people as well, you know, if I didn't break my back the first time, I don't get to experience love, right? And I'd never experienced love like that until that point in my life.

And what's the old saying, it's better to have loved and lost than to have never loved. I think some people go through a whole lifetime and they have their, you know, one or whatever it is. And sometimes they're just genuinely not that happy and all those sorts of things. We were, we were deeply in love. And I got to experience that and 12 months of that versus nothing, I'll take 12 months at any hour of the day. And how I had to learn to live with the loss of gym was, you know, through a lot of counseling and therapy and spirituality and all that kind of stuff that I did. And it was a process like no other. But I'm more grateful to have had him in my life than to have lost him, if that makes sense. So I'm okay with all of that. I don't know what the second broken back taught me, probably a lot of patience that I needed. I'm not a very patient person and I had to find it and learn it. So that was good. But I wouldn't change it. I honestly wouldn't change it. And if I hadn't have broken my back, I was a very, I was always a good person. Country values, all that kind of stuff. But I was very one dimensional. reckon you would, you and I have known each other nearly probably five, 10 years. don't know. is it? It's probably a long time now. Yeah. It feels like a long time, but I'd say what, five years? Yeah. think you'd be shocked to know what 21 year old me, you'd be like, wow. I'd 21 year old you. Yeah. I was pretty one dimensional. I was kind of very fixated on cricket and high performance and if you weren't in that world, then I didn't really want to talk to We wouldn't have. Whereas now I'm like, get me out of there. I find utterly boring. Give me into the deep shit. Get me into the good conversations. Get me into problem solving cultural issues and stuff like that. And I'm in my happy place. So I'm grateful in that sense. I don't know how to answer that question because yeah, it's a tough one, but hopefully that helps to guide you. 

Jade
I mean, the reason I asked that, I don't know if anyone saw the, on Netflix, they've just released Jane Goodall. it's- wow, after watch. Yeah, you've to watch it. So they recorded it knowing, and I think it's called in, I can't remember what it's called, but it's on Netflix, it's Jane Goodall. And it was deliberately recorded to be shown after she passed. And some of the, just the synchronicities and the things that happened in her life.

The interviewer asked her the question around, do you believe in destiny? Do you believe in fate? Because everything had to happen in such an extreme way. The person that she met, the journey she went on, the opportunity she was given, the hardship she faced, all of that. If none of those things had happened, she wouldn't have ended up making this huge impact on the world. Now, I am likening you in your own way to Jane Goodall, one of my heroes. What an absolute, absolute legend.

Kath
I think, you know, it's really interesting to me. I've asked this question of quite a few of my friends who've gone through some things and myself, I've gone through some things in my life and there are lessons that you go, I would rather not have learned that, but you wouldn't change it because then you couldn't guarantee where you would end up. I wouldn't live in Australia if I hadn't gone through some things I went through in my teens, right? So all of these things, it's like, is there a gift in adversity? are we?

Hey, where my head keeps going, a couple of things actually is really fascinating and I'd love to stay on this because I don't like the saying everything happens for a reason because everyone says that to me and I'm like, all right, do you care, do you learn how to walk then? I'm sick of hearing this shit. So I hate that saying, but I do believe you get what you get when you need it.

And I reckon if you were to look at my social media, and I try to keep it as real as possible, I've got a 30 minute time cap on my thing, because I get distracted and all that, and I don't like social media. But if you were to look at that even, I reckon, paint a picture somewhat of success, where I'm on big stages around the world, talking a lot, getting flown everywhere, all that kind of stuff, right? And I love my life, and it is a success, not in the way that you would think, not from a commercial standpoint, but I'm happy, right? I'm happiest, healthiest, and most content I've been.

The amount of no's I've been told and knockbacks that I've received, I think it would floor people, right? But everyone just sees this picture of success, so they don't see the no's. And every no that I've received has been the right thing for me in my mind, right? And I'm okay with that. And it's not like I then have any animosity or angst to this person who's told me the no or whatever. It's led me to a different path where I've found a way, if I wanted it bad enough. Or I've found something even better or whatever it is. But at the time you're like, wow, that stings. It's a punch to the guts. Like I've worked so hard for this and now it's a no or whatever. So I do believe we get nos and yeses at the times that we need to get them and we get what we get when we're ready or when we need it. I don't know why, but my head kept going to this story as well when you were just talking about like destiny and fate. Cause as I said, 21 year old me, very one dimensional, good person, but very boring. And I'll never forget coming out of that two month coma.

And it's a really weird experience spiritually and all that. And again, I probably won't go into it because it's pretty weird stuff. like weird. Yeah, but this is a podcast. So we'll go into it later. So it's a very odd experience. And everyone has a different experience with a coma I found because I hear from his people. But interestingly, as I come out of it, like, you your mates come in and they're visiting and all this kind of stuff. I this really deep conversation with my mate and she said, you're good. You're really quiet today. was like, just got hit by a fucking car. So. She's like, yeah, nah, like all good. And she said, what's going on? And I was like, I'm just, I'm really angry. And she's like, well, of course you are. You got hit by a car and you can't walk again. I was like, oh, no, not because of that, don't worry about that. She said, what do mean? I was like, I'm just really pissed. I feel really short-changed. She's like, what? And I said, how do you come this close to death? And I still don't know what the fuck it's all about.

I was like, is it to laugh and be loved or like is it to fucking make a difference? Like what the fuck are we doing here? And she was just like, fuck me. Like she goes, never just sit still for a second and stop thinking. And I was just like, nah, it kind of annoyed me that I, you hear about these stories of people who come close to death and they change their whole life and they see the light. And I saw all that and did all that and all that kind of stuff. But I was like, yeah, but I still don't get it.

Yeah, what am I doing now? I'm here now. Where's that wisdom? Like is life supposed to make sense? I can give all this wisdom to everyone now. So you just tell me what it is. And I still, I was like, still don't know the mystery, like the mystery of life, right? And I'm on pierce because I come back. And so like I got very spiritual after that. Like I got really, really spiritual where I felt like and still believe and I don't want to get weird or anything like that and detract from the conversation, but I felt like we're part of something bigger than what we realize. Sometimes when I'm doing something or there's some weird stuff that happens now that I pick up on that I probably wouldn't have in the past. so again, that curiosity and that zest and I can definitely overcomplicate life sometimes when I go down these rabbit holes and stuff like that. But I did get very curious and spiritual after that coma and then started reading into more of what the questions you've asked.

You know, cause a lot of people have said, I would love to have your viewpoint on life. Cause I haven't had half the challenges and yet I'm now playing the victim or doing this. And you know, my advice to them is it's okay to play the victim. Like you can be the victim if you were the victim, right? But the only person getting you out of this is you. Like your trauma might not be your fault, but healing is your responsibility. And so I know that I'm a deep thinker and I can get caught in these funnel webs and tunnels of really deep and sometimes dark thoughts when you're overthinking and complicate life, but also like living on the light side of life too. And so I think knowing when to tap in and out of that stuff's really important when you've had trauma or adversity like I, and let's be honest, most people have, like everyone has a story. Mine's public, I've been through a lot, but that doesn't mean that people aren't suffering just as much or have suffered just as much. So.

Yeah, I think at any point in life, whether you're going through stress, adversity, whatever it is, maybe you're just having a happy life. Be curious, yeah. Because you'll open yourself up to a lot more learning and growth and potential. And again, you don't know where the path's going to take you like Jane Goodall, huge compliment to be not compared to her. But what a woman. Yeah, she's amazing. Yeah, I'm going to have to watch that as well. 

Jade
Oh, it's really good. Definitely worth watching. let's fast forward. So I want to talk about The Kindness Factory. We know that your journey sparked that, what kindness did for you. What have you, how have you seen people show up? Like what are some of the acts of kindness? What surprised you the most about how the movement was responded to, how it's grown? And then, you know, what have the challenges been in scaling and maintaining that? 

Kath
Yeah, it hasn't been an easy slog. Again, you know, I think there's been a lot of accolades and awards and all that kind of stuff. And then people deem this to be a real big success.
Very recently I've sort of delved more so into the consultative process of corporate around the world, which has been so fascinating. And I never thought I'd be doing that kind of work or to be trusted by clients as big as what I've got, which is really interesting. So then people go, you're a of an overnight success, hey. And I'm like, well, hang on, not really. This is 10 years in the making and I don't need, there's not a more appropriate person I could have in the room in terms of advocacy and a person who knows how hard nonprofit and charity can be.

The Kindness Factory is doing okay, like we're not absolutely killing it. I was at a thing recently where there were three other charities and we're all sort of vying for this pot of money and we all got split in the end and all that kind of stuff. And it's so wonderful to connect in with other charities and all that kind of stuff. And I got asked this question, you know, where would you put this amount of money or whatever for the factory for your foundation? And I said, well, lots of different ways, we've got some campaigns coming up, et cetera. And they said, what about resourcing? Like you look like a really busy person. I said, I don't think there's a charity in the world that you would ever hear say that they're resourced well enough. It's hard. Like people think business is hard. It's hard. Do you know what's harder? Charity. Because you're vying for the same funding allocation. Everyone has a cause and everyone's cause is just as important as the next. It can be a bit of a dog eat dog world. Something I got really passionate about was, you know, chatting to other founders, they've all got an emotional attachment to it. Then there's other charities that pop up that are either seen as competitors or whatever. And I don't think we need to be competing in that space. That's a big passion of mine. Like there's room for everyone. But I do think if we were to combine our efforts a little bit more and started to work a little bit more cohesively, would all start to make a bit more sense. But potentially it's the ACNC, the way that it's structured through a governance process, et cetera, that makes charity hard. Kindness Factory has been a registered nonprofit now for seven years. Before that, we were like a social media page of goodness and it was kind of operating like a nonprofit or charity, but it wasn't regulated by ACNC or we didn't have DGR status and all that kind of stuff. It was only sort of five years ago that we got our first seed funding. I was self-funding it through speaking engagements, barely paying myself, but wanting the charity to succeed and all that kind of stuff. there's all these stories out there and mine's not too dissimilar to many other founders where you lose a lot of personal money because your passion drives this alone. then suddenly something clicks into gear, whether it's this track record of consistency and success and people know that you're the real deal and you're hanging around for a long time. It's not just one of those fad charities and they start to believe in it. So we got $10,000 worth of seed funding about five years ago.

And at that point we'd been given a lot of pro bono support throughout education partner Kaplan to create some IP around the kindness curriculum, which teaches kids these building blocks of kindness to reduce antisocial behaviors and mental ill health and so on. So we had the IP and the concepts there, but this $10,000, which, you know, for a charity, it's a lot of money, but it's nowhere near enough. So that got us started and then thankfully some other philanthropists and funders got on board. For me, the greatest vehicle is storytelling. So as a founder promoting our message, that's not on stages around the world. And then people will want to jump on board to help inspire the next gen to grow with kindness and so on. But it's not easy. It really isn't the charity world. And advocacy is important. And so is mentorship and all these other things that exist within the space. But it's a tough old slog to make it work and to make ends meet for sure.

Jade
And how do you balance those two sides? Because you're a very in demand, I know because of how hard it is to get a meeting with you. You're very in demand in terms of your speaking and rightly so, right? Because this message needs to get to as many people as possible. But you're also running a charity. And the two in terms of time needed to dedicate to both, that's got to be a juggle.

How have you set up the organization to delineate between your personal time and your work spreading the kindness message, which then feeds back interest and hopefully support and donations into the kindness factory, but then making sure that the kindness factory can live and breathe whilst you're not here. How have you managed that? 


Kath
I've got a very engaged board. You've met a couple of those guys. They are way more active than most volunteers are as non-executive directors.
I don't earn a cent for working in the Kindness Factory. So I earn all of my income through speaking and consulting, which is great. Which then, you know, sometimes gives me a bit of spare time to be able to contribute into kindness factory. was about two years ago, I made a bit of a pivot to structure Kindness Factory a little bit differently, knowing that I was a volunteer and that passion alone can't get you everywhere. So I started focusing my efforts more in that consultative space, knowing that the commercial benefit of that could help fund the factory. So I run my own business to the side, which helps fund Kindness Factory, profits go towards that, et cetera, which can help us then resource Kindness Factory. I guess for me, the best way, I guess like I'm now considered this social entrepreneur, which I hate titles as you know, but I was giving someone a piece of advice the other day, you know, those Venn diagrams.

And they were like, you know, I'm going to do this and I'm really passionate about it and blah, blah, blah. I don't want to give too much defining information away. And I said, okay, great. And I said, you do seem very passionate about it. said, how are you going to fund it? Like, and she said to me, well, who cares? I was like, you need to eat. So you need to be able to do that. You need to be able to fund it as well as be passionate about it. And we kind of drew these three interlocking circles. And one was one of the questions we needed to answer was what am I deeply passionate about? And it was this thing.

The other one was what drives my economic engine. So it funds me, feeds me, pays my rent, my bills, helps my kids thrive. If I have them, I don't. All those sorts of things. Right. And then the third circle is what am I, you know, in the world's top 10 % of, or what am I the world's best at? Right. If we had to ask the third question. And I think when we can interlock those three circles, we can start to make sense of everything else. And so for me, when I started to answer those questions, I was deeply passionate about kindness. So that was one thing, what was going to drive my economic engine and help me fund and feed myself and protect my future and all those sorts of things. Cause I wasn't paying myself through Kindness Factory. Cause I was passionate about it, but it wasn't driving an economic engine. It was, you know, speaking. So I knew that I could earn money well enough to feed me, pay my rent and do all the things I needed to do to survive. Whilst also then dipping into passion. Cause I was talking about kindness, which gave me a great sort of anchor point into being able to help again, promote the charity, get it in front of decision makers and philanthropists and all those sorts of things that could then in turn help fund that and the future and all that kind of stuff. And in the third circle needed to be, know, what am I the world's best at or what am I really good at, I guess is another way of phrasing that question. And I'm not the world's best speaker by any stretch. I get booked a lot. I'm very popular at it. It takes a lot for me to even say that, but I'm not technically gifted. I speak like a Bergen, I talk way too fast, especially for international audiences and all that kind of stuff. But I do what I do on stage very authentically. And therefore I did become one of the world's best at it because I'd never lost sight of what I was passionate about and what I believed in. And so the authenticity kind of shines through on a stage.

So as soon as I got that right, I was like, well, here's something that I love doing. I'm really passionate about it. It gives me money to feed myself and I'm pretty good at it. So I'll focus on that from an efforts perspective, which in turn only benefits the charity anyway. And then I'm going to structure that very light on. And we're about to make some big changes in the charity space really soon for 2026 and beyond where we can structure and have a better support capture around that.

So that I can free myself up to do more of this stuff that I'm really good at that I'm passionate about that helps the factory anyway. And so that's how we kind of figured it out. I think again, I speak to a lot of founders and they're so passionate about it and you can't fault them for that. You really can't. But I don't feel like they get the other pieces to the puzzle right. And then you see things like burnout and you know, the charity folds or whatever it is. And we've certainly come close to that like in the past for sure where I was very nearing burnout and I needed a break and the board have then stepped up and done what they needed to do. So we've got specialized skills around the table, which is awesome. And they step up when they need to and they're all specialized in the key areas of the business that they need to be. And then we've got operational staff, very light on. And again, we're going to be employing some more soon, to basically execute on those things. So there's a couple of things that I won't let go of. So things like World Kindness Day, which is our sort of marquee day every year. And then some decisions around, know, the school ecosystem is very complex. I've got a great set of skills when networking with the decision makers in schools. So people like principals and education ministers and so on that have helped and aided and assisted us. But if you had to get me to write a lesson plan, you'd be waiting about four years. So I know where my skills lie in helping the charity do what it needs to do. And then I know where others need to step in and step up and what we need to fund and not fund versus or who we've got around the table that can execute versus can't and all that kind of stuff. it is it's a hard slog and you'll never have the amount of resources that you need to make a charity work. Yeah.

Jade
And that's a good segueway into the Kindness Curriculum. So the Kindness Curriculum is taking kindness into schools. And I think, you know, what I love is just how young you're getting to these beautiful young minds before the negativity of the world gets too far into their brain. So talk to me about the kindness curriculum. Like, what are the goals and then what are the impacts you're already seeing? 

Kath
It's been running for a while now. Yeah, it's, I mean, what happened was I was getting invited around the world to speak and I got to New York and I was speaking in front of the world's biggest companies and they'd phone me there, bells and whistles, all that kind of stuff from Sydney. And I got to reception, I said, I'm Kath, I'm here to do the keynote. And they said, yep, we're going to show you to the CEO. And I thought it was for like a briefing that happens a lot in the speaking world to get clear on outcomes and what we're going to talk about and what we hoped that they walked away feeling, thinking and doing. And I get in this room, we're having this chat and it's kind of not really going anywhere. And he was asking me really odd questions. a story for another day. It's a project for another day, all that kind of stuff. But essentially the assistant comes in at the 60 minute mark and goes, Kathel, we're wrapped. Any questions? I'll show you to the exit. And I went, okay, just thinking like I was going to be taken to like an amphitheater or something for a keynote. And she's like, oh, well, there's the door. Can you sign out on the way out and leave your badge at reception? I said, well, where am I setting up for this talk? And she said, what do you mean? I said, well, the talk that I've been paid to fly here to do. And she said, you just did it. And I said, what? an audience of one. I was like, what do you mean? And she said, oh, that's why we flee here. And said, and you know, in life, you have those moments where you're like, I'm scratching my head right now. I'm like, what do you mean?

This is ridiculous. And I like, this isn't why I quit my job and pursued this. Like, no way. I felt like a complete sellout. I was like, Jesus. so it was winter and I remember walking out of reception and it was in the Bronx in New York. I was walking past and then it was going to my hotel and I had an extra couple of days there because jet lag or whatever. And I had some business meetings and whatever. And anyway, I walked past this school and it was gated up and I was like, fuck, I'll just go in there and do it. I was, I'm here to do a talk. I'm going to do a talk.

So I buzzed on the intercom and I said, oh, can I see the principal? So they let me through and then they're oh, what's your name? I was like, oh, can I see the principal? So they're like, oh, you're causing trouble. was like, no, no, no. So anyway, the principal comes out and I said, look, I've been flown. I'm from Australia. can Google me. It's legit. I speak all around the world. I come here to share my story. I haven't done that. And I feel really disappointed. Can I talk to the kids? And she's kind of looking at me going, the hell is going on here? So she did Google me and she went, well, how much? I said, no, free.

And she said, are you sure? Can you come back tomorrow? Cause we can't. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I come back tomorrow. Yeah. What time? 10 o'clock. Cool. I'll be there. So go back the next day. And I'd done a few school talks and stuff like that, but never with this vision in mind of what I'd started to think. And I did this talk to the kids and there was a really like low socioeconomic community and all that kind of stuff. And I was like, I walked out of there with a completely different outlook to the day before walking out of this high powered executive's office. And I went, that's who I need to be in front of. That's who my message needs to reach, but I don't know how to do that because I can't feed myself if that happens. So I made myself a deal right then, right there. Every keynote that I get that I can feed myself with or pay my bills or whatever, I'm going to go into a school for free. And that was a deal I made with myself. And you know, we got quite clever with it. was like, you know, if I went to the regional town of Orange for work thing, I'd just go to Orange primary school or secondary school or whatever it was. And it kind of be this give back model. And then word got around really quickly and I had 600 schools on a waitlist. I was like, oh, this isn't scalable. I'm one person. I shit, what am going to do now? And serendipitously, I'm, I met Kaplan. So the managing director of Kaplan, who are an education provider, not long after running into this issue. And I did a talk for university students. It was their graduation ceremony. And he approached me after and he said, well, shit, how, could I help? And I said, well, I don't know. How could you help? And he said, well, we work in the education space. What do you need? And I said, well, actually, and I shared that story with him and I said, he said, so what do you need? And I said, well, teachers almost chasing me out the car park after these talks going, well, shit, these kids were really engaged and you've just created a legacy that we couldn't come close to doing. Can you come back tomorrow? And I was like, no, I can't. I've got another school to go to or whatever I like. And so we'd kind of then go, well, shit, now we've got another problem. How do we continue this legacy?

So I said to Rob from Kaplan, said, well, what if we were to leave them with some worksheets or I don't know, a book or something that they could then continue this, like practice kindness on the daily or whatever it was. He said, what do think? said, Rob, I really don't know, like a kindness curriculum. And that just spat out at my mouth. And he was just like, well, here's two of the smartest people I know. There's a man named James Adanopoulos who's an academic dean, very, very clever guy, very much into science and neurology and sociology.

all these kinds of things and Professor Tanya Asplund who has a wealth of knowledge in early education. So I kind of locked myself in a room with those two and very quickly realized I was definitely not the smartest in the room, but I kind of gave them a framework. This is my life story. These are some of the themes that I've explored. was gratitude, empathy, obviously kindness is one, but what if we would then like what the way my brain works, was like, what if if there's 13 years between kindergarten and year 12?

What if we were to break kindness into 12 pieces? What would those pieces be called? Like to make kindness the power that it is or because we now know that serotonin and oxy, all these things are occurring in our brains when we're kind. And so they said, well, give us half a day. So they went away and they said, well, it's things like you've already said, it's gratitude, it's empathy, it's mindfulness, which I'm shocking at, it's humility, it's humor, et cetera. we then, was mindfulness and meditation.

We kind of combined into two. So we came up with 12 attributes of kindness. If we were to teach these principles in an age appropriate way to kids, they will then grow with a foundation of kindness. And I kind of really believe in talking to kids with positive regard and sentiment, and they're a lot smarter than what we give them credit for. If kids are getting bullied, don't go in and talk about bullying, go in and talk about kindness in my opinion, because I kind of feel like we go in and talk about and ran these things about how harmful, but we know bullying is harmful. Everyone's experienced it, right? Let's talk about kindness and the power that it has as an antidote to that. Yes, definitely. But even just because, right? So if we then gave them these building blocks and they could grow on that foundation, we'd probably see less bullying because no one's actually talking about it. They all just want to be kind anyway. And it kind of gave kindness this edge or superpower. So we launched this thing. We came up with 68, I think it was learning activities to begin with and it was in 2020, Unlimited helped us launch it. It was in the midst of COVID. So essentially what had happened is I told all these teachers that I've gone to these schools, it's coming, it's coming, it's coming. But it's kind of beyond my control as all these academics doing it because I'm not an educator and all that kind of stuff. And then COVID struck. So the teachers are like, is it coming? We need it now. We need something. The kids are done at 10. Parents are ringing us and all this kind of stuff. And I was like, so I spoke to Kaplan and I said, can we expedite this? Cause they need it right now. And they're like, we agree. So they put a few bit more manpower. We couldn't have done it without Kaplan. They put way more manpower behind it. And then we launched for free. It was all just for free, right? I'd been into 70 schools at that point. So said, here it is. Love some feedback. Tell us what you think of it, all that kind of stuff. And within about a week, I think 700 schools had accessed it and downloaded the content. And now we have a paid version of it where it's a plug and go. you basically get all of your PowerPoints. Even then, I was so naive in this process. I was giving it to teachers and it was all free and all that kind of stuff and still is, you can still access it for free. And they're like, well, it would be cool if we could just plug it into our whiteboard and it was ready to go. If you were to do a paid version, that would make our life easier because we're overwhelmed and unpaid and all that kind of stuff. like, what do you mean? Plug it into your whiteboard. And they're like, just plug and play. And I was like, What do mean? How does that work? Is it electronic? they're like, how long has it since you've been in the classroom? I was like, 20 years. And they're like, yeah, they're interactive now. You don't just write on them. And I'm like, okay, cool. So then I spoke to my team and they're all much older than I am. And they're like, oh yeah, okay. So we kind of, like everything I do is just trial and error. it out as you go. Work it out as you go. Get feedback. I it's the best way to do anything. 

I received an award last year and it all had to be accredited and all the stats had to be rigorously tested and all that kind of stuff as a consequence of this. And it shocked me because we had under reported, I thought it had been downloaded globally about 40,000 times. I think it was only last week that the numbers are closer to a hundred thousand times globally it's been downloaded. So that's all the free content and all that kind of stuff, which for me is mind blowing, which means, you know, the numbers, I don't even know how you'd guesstimate that, right? Because it's for downloading how many, yeah, all that kind of stuff. I'm not, I'm not very good at that. Lots. So lots of people. we know because now when you get it, you have to give the email address, not because we want to do marketing or anything like that, but just because we need to know where to send it and all that kind of stuff. It's three and a half thousand Aussie schools have accessed it. So that's, we, do target now. We made a very strategic decision about two years ago to target primary school age. There's a lot of charities in the market that target secondary and they need to because there's a lot of help that's needed there and we're like, how could we assist potentially those charities and set them up for success with these behavioral changes? But also there's a need there as well. The earlier we know we get to them with these foundational skills, the better for them. So that was our strategic decision, but it still gets downloaded in the secondary system. And there is some content there in the free version that is very much relevant to say even 18 year olds and stuff like that. it's constantly being used, which is great, but it's nowhere where it needs to be again, like as a funding and resourcing and all that kind of stuff. So everything in life is a work in progress. Our product is far from polished. It is making a difference, but not a big enough one in my opinion. Where does that buck stop? I think every founder would say the same thing and stuff like that, but it's always open to refinement. And we work with teaching groups now, cohorts. In my spare time, I'll go into schools and do PD sessions with teachers in exchange for their feedback, for example.

And so now we've got a researcher from ACU who's measuring the impact of it. And so far, what we do know is that there's been any of the schools that are using the content, there's a reduction in absenteeism, which is fantastic. It means kids are feeling safe to rock up to school. They're not getting bullied. There's no adverse, less adverse behaviors, et cetera. There is lower instances of bullying. How you measure that is very, very hard because a lot of it has to be anecdotal, which is great feedback, but then it's like, what's the true accurate measure of that? So there's been some really good findings so far, in order for us to measure, because we haven't been around so long, you know, again, you don't get the research and the government support unless you've got a 10 year proven track record of success or something like that. And so it's like, okay, when we know it's working, the teachers are telling us it's working, the kids love it, the parents love it, all this kind of But you've got to wait for the tick of approval from the government. Yeah, which is...

Again, I get that everything has to through due process, but there's a lot of kids struggling at the moment. you constantly, the hard thing as a founder and someone who works in the charity space, you do a lot and you nearly burn yourself out. I'd imagine it's very much like being a teacher. I'm not one, I've got way too much respect for them, but I bet you feel like you're never doing enough. And same for you guys. You're in this space of helping, right? And you're like, I need to go home and have a family life and be with my husband or wife or whatever it is, but there's kids who like, they need this. And it's like, shit, like I don't like resting my head at night knowing that someone's suffering or, and so you can get caught up in that and that's why boundaries become important and all that kind of stuff. look, think, it's that old age old saying is that old story that, cause I used to get a lot of naysayers when they're like, well, hang on, trauma, grief and loss doesn't equal kindness. I was like, why? You can if you want it to. And I disagree, it does make you feel good. And so it can.

But then I know if you heard the story, it's like an elderly couple walking on the beach and this wave has washed all these fish, like I'm talking hundreds of fish up onto the shore and they were floundering and flapping on the sand. They're about to die, right? Because they can't get back into the ocean by themselves. So the man just picks one up and throws it back into the ocean and the wife kind of laughs and goes, well, what are you doing? And he's like, well, what do you mean? Like I needed to get back in the water. She's like, there's thousands of them. Like, you're not going to help them all. He's like, well, I helped that one. Yeah.

So one at a time. And I kind of like that because a lot of people in life will go, well, you can't help everyone. You can't, but you can help one person. And that one person might help 10. Yeah. And so again, like I don't think we need to overcomplicate this concept of kindness or help or care.  And it's that one simple act. 

Jade
And I think that's what I love around, your ability to distill some quite complex, you know, societal issues. There's a lot going on. And I think, you know, we can get caught up inm we can get caught up in that negativity and then you have that sense of apathy because people feel powerless to make change. But what you're talking about is the prime example of all you need to do is do what is within your power. And what is within your power is to get this curriculum in front of as many people as possible. And then, you know, I'd love to know what's your vision for these kids that are having this experience and learning about kindness and all those different acts, all those different elements of kindness.

What are your hopes and dreams for them when they get to their teenage years and when they become, you know, our workforce of the future? Like, does that excite you? Does that give you hope? 


Kath
It does. And when you talk about workforce, that's where I, that's my bread and butter now. That's where I spent all my time. There's a lot of unhappy people in the workplace. Something recently that I've become really fascinated and passionate about is as we started to tap into some of the data and the feedback and all those sorts of things that we're getting in the work place what we've realized if and this might resonate with you it's very new way of thinking but 99 % of the population are good yeah they really are and even that person that just yelled at you like or beat their horn in traffic or they're a good person right even though they beat the horn maybe they got a sick kid at home or life has tested him today and all that kind of stuff. so I don't think as human beings, unless there's like a complete narcissist or sociopath right in front of you, absolutely bound yourself from that dude like at all costs, But I don't think we can assume or afford to assume anything but positive intent from people. And again, it's probably in that curious mindset, right? Set of rules I like to live by, I literally jumped off stage to 400, sorry, 800 HR executives in the city here. And their heads are just nodding along as I talk about this, right? Life is messy, humans are complex. We've got hormones rushing through us, we've got kids screaming at us, we've got ditches in the sink, we've got work priorities, we've got a boss who's been a prick, whatever. Life is messy, humans are complex. We have to, if those two things are true, which we know they are, we have to assume positive intent, that everyone's just trying their best, right? Even if they did yell at you or whatever, right? Therefore, understanding becomes transformative. So context is king. And whenever I get people coming to me going, I've got this person who did this thing and blah, blah, my golden rule is always ask two more questions. So if a person's presenting themselves and they're being really hard to work with or whatever, ask two really curious questions. Normally one will do the trick and you'll always come up with a reason as to why something's occurring. And if that reason goes against your moral or value code, then cool, distance yourself. But if it doesn't, if it's just that their kid was sick or whatever, then you've got room there for growth, right? Something that I've become really fascinated about, about 18 months ago, we started tracking and measuring these kindness behaviors in the corporates that we're working with. And interestingly, what we ended up doing was we started studying what occurred in healthy, high-performing workplaces. So I spent the first half of my life being obsessed with high performance. And if you relate that to the corporate, it's, you your KPIs, it's your commercial outputs, it's your productivity, it's your success, right? In business sense. And then the second half of my life has been really dedicated to kindness, understanding it at core, emotional intelligence, don't be an asshole, that kind of thing. And then I was like, you know what, these two things can coexist. Not only can they coexist, high performance and kindness, what we now know through research is that the organizations that they do coexist in are the best ones to be a part of. Their employees are happier, their productivity is better, their profitability is better, their business soars, and they go home as happier husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, daughters, whatever it is that they're all the role that they play in the community. And so I was like, okay, well, what's going on in these organizations? And so what we've recently done is come up with a tool that helps us measure six key performance indicators that balance both of those things. And then what we realized on this basis of assuming positive intent,
and that life is messy and all these sorts of things is that within these six performance measures, and I'm talking things like constructive communication being one, empower performance being another, sustainable outcomes being another, creativity, authenticity and belonging and fun and fulfillment. And when these things exist, this is what we're seeing in the best organizations or high performing organizations in the world, which is great. Within each of those principles, there's tensions that exist that make it difficult. Both are positive in sentiment.

Let's take constructive communication, for example, is this elusive thing that we all value and say that we want and all that kind of stuff. Until you get it. Until you get it. Right. Yeah. And this is it's delivered. You and I are pretty direct. We love it. Right. I love it. I love it when you just go no. And I'm like cool. Tell me, tell me more. But here's what happens in constructive. We need to balance these beautiful tensions of radical candor, being told no and having hard conversations, which is often referred to as brutal honesty, but doesn't have to be brutal. What we need to balance there is radical candor needs to be balanced with empathetic delivery. Yes. Right? Yeah. Because I think it can be weaponized. Completely agree. I think if you don't balance that with empathetic delivery, it won't land and wars will go up and people are like, yes, you're factual, you're correct, you're right, I'm wrong, all that kind of stuff. But you'll be in an asshole at the same time, leading to this person not feeling great. And it comes from the intent as well, right? You actually are trying, you're deliberately trying to use this as a way to...have ill intent towards someone. it's, So, but then curiously, so we know, and you and I have just basically said that empathetic delivery needs to form part of it, but let's take it to the other side, right? Too much empathetic delivery. We're going into nice territory. It probably lacks facts, authenticity, honesty. We're appeasing. We're telling someone what they want to hear, not what they need to hear. Business outcome not achieved. Yeah. Right. We're fluffing around it.

We need to be honest and have radical candor, but we need to balance that with empathetic delivery. Too much empathy, we go nice and business potential is not realized. Too much radical candor, psychological safety not there. So what we realized is there's these two positive things. They're both positive, empathetic delivery and radical, both positive, but they can be outweighed. And when outweighed, as we said, going to nice territory, going to lack of psychological safety. That's just one example. Empowered performance, we need to balance clear direction with our own empowered process of moving through, learning how to walk again, good example there. I had to listen to my doctor's advice and have clear direction there and follow their guidance because they were smarter and they're more experienced and they know what they're doing. But I also then had to be empowered in that process to figure it out myself as well. And to prove them wrong. Absolutely. So just listen to me, right?

Yeah, so I think like, so I was able to then relate this. That's a lot, isn't it? For, now, these are human beings that are having to, so if we're not teaching kids this, how can we expect adults to be able to So back to your question, like how important is this? Well, so interestingly, our hope is that the work I'm doing in corporate now doesn't need to exist in 12 years time because kids have gone through and they understand all this stuff and it'll be beautiful and they're nailing it. Like I think we, like, I myself can be unbalanced in some of these tensions at times and like fun and fulfillment, perfect example, I'm fairly certain at times you're there just wanting to grind your teeth at me in a meeting, can you just fucking... Never. So I test the boundaries myself and I very much outweigh certain tensions where I shouldn't be and all that kind of stuff. But being human is complex. Again, we just, can't afford to assume anything but positive intent with that regard. It's hard to be a human. Like it really is. Like even the...

Sometimes I'm like, I don't even want to pick what clothes I have to wear today. Why does it matter? I wish someone would just fucking put them on my body and I get, do know what I mean? It's messy. We're messy and we're supposed to be because things happen and we have these contextualized things in our life that no one knows about.

It's just hard at the best of times. And if that's the case, think knowledge becomes power. And if we can then what we realized in the workplace and it's going really well, what we've seen in the organizations we're delivering this stuff to is we've seen an increase in wellbeing by 66%. Wow. So they're happier. We've got a happiness index within those organizations. We've got an increase in productivity by 22 % and profitability by 18%.

So as I go on stages and bleed my heart and tell my story, some of which you've heard today, people are there with their jaws on the floor and like, but I kind of don't need to anymore, which is wonderful, right? Because it's not a case that needs to be sold. If you're not leaning into kindness, the science behind it, the research, being kind to yourself, let's remember as well, and then others, you kind of miss in a bit too. Like you're missing out on a competitive advantage or you're missing out, your family's missing out. It has a very strong ripple effect kindness.

Hard to measure, very, very real, 8.5 million instances of it that we've seen work, right? And it trickles down. So one act leads to many more and all that kind of stuff. know that, we've seen that. yeah, in a purely selfish way, if you're not leaning into it, people around you aren't benefiting eitherm and your life isn't as happy as what it could be. I'm convinced of that for sure. But I always say to people, if you can't meet me halfway and be kind to yourself and others, just start and we'll get along just fine if you're just not an asshole. Start there. Say what you really say. Just don't be a dick. Don't be a dick, yeah, exactly. 

Jade
Look, I don't think I've asked a single question I said I was gonna ask you. Which kind of is what I expected. But I might just ask you to just a couple of rapid fire. Like people listen today, if they could do one kind thing for themselves or others, what are a few of those things they could do? 

Kath
Simple things. Hold a door for someone, smile at someone. The other day I was on the crossing, like a zebra crossing. I was listening to a podcast, really funny one, I had my headphones in and I started laughing, which would be interesting as an elderly person sort of crossing, coming at the other direction and facing me. And for them, guess, they don't live with wireless devices and all that kind of stuff. she just, all she said was that I was laughing and had a smile on my face and she grabbed my arm in the middle of the crossing. Thankfully there's no cars around. And I pulled my headphone out and she said, it's so nice to see someone smiling. And I was like, and the, the, yeah. Like look at you right now. The impact that had on my day, was like just from somewhat like I was just laughing at a podcast and then yeah. So it's so simple. It's not hard. Like it just melted your heart. Like imagine, yeah, being on the recipient, hold the door for someone, smile at someone. Like the amount of times I've heard from people going, all I did was smile at this bloke. He then opened up, or woman, and told me about his life story. He was very close to some pretty significant decisions in life. Chose not to do that as a consequence of smiling at someone. Buy someone a coffee if you've got the means, the financial means to be able to do so. Homeless person, next time you walk by, why don't if you've got 10 bucks, rather than giving them the cash, invite them in for dinner.

So I never carry cash, I've always got like a card on me or something like that. And whenever I'm asked, and if I am walking to dinner or something and I'm by myself, which happens, I travel a lot and all that kind of stuff, like, I don't have 10 bucks on me, but why don't you come in and I'll shout you your dinner. My only ask is that you sit with me and enjoy it. And then you quickly learn their story. Connect, like we are wired and hardwired for connection as human beings. We're not born to go through life isolated yet in times of crisis that tends to be a default.

Everyone hunkers down. Yeah, I was guilty of it for sure. Yeah. And we're not designed to do that. We all have heard the stats recently. The loneliness epidemic that's occurring that we're not really knowledgeable about at the moment. I've researched a lot, but loneliness is killing us. It's more harmful than smoking, I think it's 18 cigarettes a day. In terms of the impact it has on our physical, but also mental health, of course. connection is really key. my advice to anyone, start small.

But start with yourself. So we can't give true and authentic kindness to others unless we afford that to ourselves. Otherwise we're probably leaning into the inauthenticity of niceness. It's probably wanting something in exchange for services if you're giving that kindness or wanting to be applauded for it or whatever. You cannot give kindness to others unless you've afforded that to yourself. And that doesn't have to be big either. Like for me, the way I practice kindness every day,

I know I need to exercise because I've got this hardwired ADHD high energy brain. If I don't, you're going to see me a lot more grumpier, a lot more snappier. I'm going to be less patient with you. So I know that's how I'm looking after myself. So that goes in my diary every day before anything else. And then meetings are around that. It's normally at like 4 a.m. so it doesn't bother anyone, but I get it done. And that's how I practice kindness to myself. And if I don't do it, I know that I'm not going to be the happiest or best version of myself. For others, it's telling their dog that they love them. Or getting a dog. Getting a dog. Yeah. We don't have to overcomplicate. giving someone a hug. Yeah. Again, we're born for connection. telling someone that you love them. Getting your favorite coffee. Reading your favorite book. Going to the beach. Taking a walk. It doesn't have to be big stuff. We don't have to overcomplicate this stuff. Sometimes the simplest things that we can do for ourselves then often lead to, again, the biggest things for ourselves, also others in that process as well. So my advice for anyone is to start there. It's not selfish. It's selfless. Whenever I get on a plane, the first, which isn't almost every day, first thing I hear every single time without a doubt, doesn't matter what airline in case of emergency oxygen mask will fall down from the ceiling, put yours on first before helping others. 10 years ago, before I started all this, I used to think about that and I'll go for my nephew or god sons or god daughters was sitting next to me at three and there's no way I'd be putting my mask on before them. And now I know differently. I know that I would have to do that before helping them. And the same goes for kindness. We can't help others or give kindness to others unless we've done that for ourselves. If you want to change the world, start there. 

Jade
And of course log your acts of kindness. we'll just do a few, like obviously people might want to look into your story. The story has got many layers. Kath's story is like an onion. So I encourage you to go and, read her book, Kindness. It's an epic, epic story. And it's a great Christmas gift. So and you can that's an act of kindness you can give someone else's is the reading of that great story. So I'll put everything in the show notes. But just while we're on here, you know, where do they go to to log to log an act of kindness? 

Kath
Yeah, if you want to log an act of kindness or access the kindness curriculum, head to Kindness Factory dot com. Really simple.

If you want to specifically only go to the kindness curriculum, like it's tabbed on the kindness factory. But if you only specifically want to go to the curriculum, it's just the kindness curriculum.com. And I mean, if you want to learn more about my story, there's a bit on there on kindnessfactory.com or it's just kathkoschel.com. Yeah. Pretty simple. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thank you for being here. Thank you very much. Yeah. Having me. Yeah. Let's just put some more kindness out in the world. Shall we people? Yeah. We'll it there. Thanks very much. Bye.