No Ordinary People - Mirabel Foundation: Seeing the Children Addiction Leaves Behind

When a child loses a parent due to illicit drug use, the silence around it can be as heavy as the loss itself. Stigma keeps so much unsaid, and children are left to navigate grief and confusion without the words or support to make sense of it.

In this episode of No Ordinary People, Jade sits down with Jane Rowe, the founder and CEO of the Mirabel Foundation, to talk about the often unseen impact of parental substance use on children, and the grandparents and kin who step in, often overnight, to care for them.

Jane shares her journey from a traditional upbringing in the UK to punk-era London at Virgin Records, and eventually to Australia, where her work in addiction counselling revealed a glaring and painful truth: when a parent enters treatment, relapses, or dies, children are left behind, and too often, no one is tracking what happens next.

What follows is a conversation grounded in both heartbreak and hope. Jane explains how Mirabel has built a model of trauma-informed, long-term support that centres dignity, stability, and relationships. This isn’t short-term intervention - it’s walking alongside children and families for years, helping them rebuild a sense of safety and belonging.

The episode highlights the hidden reality of kinship care. Grandparents and relatives step up out of love, but often without the financial, emotional, or systemic support they need. It raises important questions about how we value care, who we expect to provide it, and what real support should look like.

Jane shares how initiatives like “Big Days Out” give children permission to just be kids, free from secrecy and stigma, creating connection and a deep sense of belonging. You will hear why kinship care needs more backing, and what everyday people can do right now to reduce stigma. 

Together, Jade and Jane unpack:

• What children experience when they lose a parent due to substance use
• Why these experiences often go unseen and unspoken
• The critical role of kinship carers and the gaps in support
• How trauma-informed, long-term care changes outcomes
• The importance of belonging, connection, and joy in healing
• What stigma and shame does to a child, and how we can challenge it
• What everyday people can do to better support children and families

If you care about child wellbeing, prevention, mental health, and stronger communities, this episode is for you. Subscribe, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review to help more listeners find these stories.

This episode was recorded at the Nova Entertainment studios.

Mirabel Foundation Contact Details

Mirabel Website – mirabel.org.au

Facebook – @MirabelFoundation

Instagram – @mirabelfoundation

LinkedIn – Mirabel Foundation

YouTube - @TheMirabelFoundation

Read Jane Rowe's book - The Damage Undone

No Ordinary People is produced by Jade Harley, Director of Impact at UnLtd.
This podcast shares the real stories of charity founders driving change for children and communities across Australia, especially those impacted by trauma, poverty, racism, and family and domestic violence.

Every story is a reminder: hope is built one small act at a time.

Brand identity and cover design created by my beautiful friends at Cocogun.

Got a story to share or want to get involved? Reach out to jade@unltd.org.au
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Connect: Instagram @noordinarypeople_podcast and LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/jadeharley

Transcript

Welcome And Acknowledgement of Country

Jade 0:06

Welcome to No Ordinary People. I'm Jade and I'm on a mission to give positivity a voice by sharing stories of everyday people doing extraordinary things. They're a reminder of the power we all have to make the world a better place. Before we begin, I'd like to acknowledge the Boonwurrung people of the Kulin Nation, the traditional custodians of the land on which we are recording today. I pay my respects to elders past and present, and I extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening. I acknowledge that this land has always been a place of meeting, care and connection for children and families, and recognise the ongoing strength, wisdom and sovereignty of First Nations communities. I also acknowledge the deep and enduring impacts of colonisation, particularly on children and kinship systems, and on our shared responsibility to work in ways that honour culture, community, and self-determination. Today's guest is Jane Rowe, OAM, the founder and CEO of the Mirabel Foundation. She's a woman whose life work has been shaped by fierce, quiet commitment to children who are so often unseen. For more than two decades, Jane has stood alongside children affected by parental substance abuse. Children growing up with uncertainty, shame, and silence while doing their best to survive adult realities far too early. Through Mirabel, Jane has helped build a model of care that centers long-term relationships, joy, dignity, and belonging. Thank you for joining me, Jane.

Jane’s Childhood And Hidden Alcohol Harm

Jane 1:40

Absolute pleasure.

Jade 1:42

I always love to start by getting to know you, Jane, little Jane, who you were growing up. We're both clearly fellow Brits. Who are lucky enough to have been welcomed and flourished within this beautiful country. Completely. So when you think back to your early years in the UK, what do you remember most strongly about those formative years?

Jane 2:06

Well, we're going a long way back. And I would say, in many ways, I had an ideal childhood, or certainly, you know, from the exterior, lived in a beautiful village, community, great kindness from my parents. It was always about compassion, never any judgment. I was sport materialistically, you know, without a doubt, I was privileged. But also, like, you know, we all have a story, don't we? So, you know, my father who and I think we understand our parents much more as we get older. Yeah. But my father had experienced extreme trauma as a child, and alcohol was his medication. So as a child, I was very aware that during the day everything was great, and then things would shift in the evening, and he would be very, very volatile. I would be very frightened. As we know, memories are very unreliable. But if someone says to me, What was your first memory? My memory is of being about two years old in a cot upstairs at night and hearing my father going on a rampage and shaking the cot calling for my mummy. Right. So yet he was also incredibly compassionate, he was kind. But what I learnt, and certainly in reflection from a young age, is how childhood influences us, how helpless we feel. For many, many years, you know, things can kind of put you back there. And shame. Because we were, to all intents and purposes, the ideal family. So it's those secrets that you keep tight.

Jade 4:00

As you moved through into adolescence and early adulthood, what

Boarding School And A Hunger For London

Jade 4:05

were the experiences that began to challenge you or sort of change the course that you were on?

Jane 4:10

I went to a very traditional English boarding school. And from a very young age, even though I'm sure it probably did me a lot of good, but I didn't enjoy it at the time, although did make incredible friends. And I think one of the best things about it was to survive. You've got to learn to get on with everyone. And so absolutely that was the big thing I took from there. But I wanted a different life. I wanted to rebel from a very young age. It was, I can't wait to get out of here. And I I remember as a child, you know, we would go to London very frequently, and I can still picture it. We we'd be on the train as it pulled into Charing Cross, and as a young child, I'd put my head out the window and inhale all the fumes and go, I can't wait to move here.

Jade 5:06

And I know, I've read your book, by the way, which I will put in the show notes and I encourage people to read. So I'm not going to kind of cover a lot of of that same ground, but I do want to talk about your your first career. So like it's it's you know, talking about that excitement of London and and the era that you were growing up in was like pivotal for music. And can you paint me a picture of of that of those that sort of first job and being within that sort of high,

Virgin Records And The Punk Years

Jade 5:35

high vol high voltage music environment? I'd love to hear a little bit about that. Yes.

Jane 5:40

Well, I left school and there was never any focus put on me to achieve or academia, anything like that. So I will I was sent to Secretarial College and I apparently went down in history as the only girl who left whose typing was faster than her shorthand. Because I would just every weekend I would go to Amsterdam. I wasn't I was never there. And then I left with absolutely no qualifications. And one of my very dear friends said, Oh, my cousin is working with this guy who's setting up a record company, which was, as it turned out, Richard Branson, and they're looking for people to work, and I'll organise an interview. So I got in touch with a cousin who organized an interview with Richard Branson, who the two questions or the main question sort of he asked me was, what was my name and what was my birth sign? I said, I'm I'm an aquarius. He went, You got the job.

Jade 6:49

What was it about an aquarius that he resonated with?

Jane 6:52

I think he would have given it to me regardless. And that was in the very early days when they used to run a mail order company. So people, you know, would put in, send in their little postal orders, order vinyl, and I would be the one typing out the labels.

Jade 7:08

I wonder if you sent one to me. I'm old enough that I used to send in. Yeah, I remember once I racked up a huge debt on my dad's credit card because I would just I found this mail order where I could just get a record every week. So I wonder if you sent one to me.

Jane 7:23

Well, I'm probably a bit older than you, but but definitely my name used to be in the Melody Maker New Musical Express. If you if you want a mail order, send it to Jane.

Jade 7:35

Oh, I love that. I love that. And who were some of the musicians? Because that would have been a just an incredible time of like so I mean, so innovative and you know breaking down barriers. Like what who were some of the musicians that you spent time with?

Jane 7:48

Well, I Mike Oldfield had just done Tubular Bells, and that changed the direction of Virgin.

Jade 7:55

Absolutely. Yeah.

Jane 7:56

So he was then there was Captain Beefheart. But then, of course, the ones who probably had the most influence on me was that Branson signed up the Sex Pistols. Yeah. So I would be typing my labels, and there would be Sid Vicious coming in, you know, joking around. It was the start of the punk era, which was for a young kid that had had a very traditional strict upbringing. I was an absolute heaven. It was the start of, as you said, the music, the punk. It was a terrific era for a kid to grow up in.

Jade 8:31

Yeah. Now, fast forward to coming

A One Way Trip To Australia

Jade 8:35

across to Australia. Can what what sort of instigated that and what was that like for you? So starting in a brand new country, you know, I've got my own Genesis story in in that regard. And and when you I think the there's something great about the bravery of youth, right? I think if you when you when you're gonna move to a brand new country, I think there's no better time to do it than when you're you know in your early 20s because you've just got this, you've just got this, I suppose, just give it a go mentality. So what was the spark for you? Why why Australia?

Jane 9:08

A bloke, that old chestnut. So I met an Australian. I was working in Italy in the mountains for a little bit, which was as much to get out of London because I was managing to get myself into quite a bit of trouble. So I was working there, met an Australian, and he said, Oh, you you know, you should come back to Australia. And I was like, hmm, I don't know, I want to go to South America. But then ended up getting you could get really cheap air tickets then, and my father was very much, no, just get her away. She she needs to get away. So I came really with not much more than an overnight bag, one-way ticket, no idea of consequence. I mean, isn't that the most beautiful thing about youth? You do things because you're not it's a good idea at the time, and it was a good idea. I mean, in many ways it totally saved my life. Yeah. But it was also they had a sheep station in the Western District, so flew in not really knowing what to expect. His brother picked us up. I remember driving there. I mean, one minute I was in the heart of New King's Road, punk London, and suddenly I'm here, and it's like, whoa!

Jade 10:26

Not in Kansas anymore.

Jane 10:28

No, that's right. But it it was exciting. It was new, it was different. His family were so welcoming, it was an adventure. I didn't think, well, this is where I am forever now. This it was like, well, this is something different.

Jade 10:43

So And then how how did you then transition into being a counsellor? So in the late 1990s, you know, and and and what were those early experiences? So I'm interested in how you moved into that era, in or sorry, into that area, and then you know, what was that first experience for you in counselling?

Counselling And Learning Addiction Up Close

Jane 11:01

So I ended up in counselling, so I got married, had two young children, and the marriage sadly broke up, and I thought, oh, I've got to work. I I'm not qualified for anything. It just hadn't dawned on me that I would suddenly have to be a sole breadwinner. And I thought, I knew I could never work in an office or I and I love people. I thought the only thing I'm qualified to do is counselling and addiction because that's what had happened to me in London. I was incredibly fortunate, I had a great safety net, I was one of the fortunate people that survived it and got out got out of it. But I thought that's the only thing I am qualified to do and that I understand, and that was why I chose that career. And I initially signed up as a volunteer at Windana, which is still going strong. And they did a lot of training, and about halfway through that training, the trainer and CEO said, We think you absolutely, this is what you should be doing, and we will implore you and pay for your study and pay for your training. So again, I hadn't really thought about it, it just happened, and I and I fell into it. So that was how it started, and you know, from that I was doing quite a few, I was working in their rehab farm, I was doing assessments, I was doing one-to-one counselling groups, and I was learning as much as the residents were learning. It was and I still learn, you know. I'm I'm learning the whole time about human behaviour. But it felt I always felt very comfortable because I understood addiction.

Jade 13:00

Yeah, that's that lived experience, right? And uh well, let's have a look at kind of because obviously that was supporting the the the adults in that situation, so their own journey, their own recovery journey. What was it that drew your attention

The Night Two Mums Died

Jade 13:15

to the children of those adults? W was there a particular moment or an instance that you can explain?

Jane 13:22

Yes, a very significant moment. So my job at that time was I was doing the assessment. So people were on waiting lists, there were no beds. I mean, there's still such an adequacy for people that want help with you know addiction. You know, you if you say you want help, you need it now. Yeah, don't be told come back in eight months. The moment could be gone. People die. So every week people would come in and see me. Where are we on the waiting list, Jane? I go, I'm so sorry, there's still not a bed for you. And one particular day, four people who you know I'd got to know pretty well came in. I said, I'm so sorry, it's still weeks away. And they said, Well, we're done with this. What we're gonna go out and get stoned tonight. And I said, Well, I can't stop you doing that, but if you do end up doing that, you've gotta stay together as a group because there's very strong heroin out there, and people are overdosing every day. And the ones that are overdosing are the ones that are using in isolation. They all went out that night, scored heroin, all passed out, two woke up and two didn't, and the two young women who died had children. And I remember going into work the next morning and being told, and you know, firstly I felt redundant in my role, like, you know, what can we do when you know people need help when we can't provide it? And I went to the funeral of one of the young mums because she came from a very fragmented family, and she had a beautiful little six-year-old son, and you know, she loved her child. He loved her. Sometimes love isn't enough, but you know, she really tried her best. And I was at the funeral, and her little son was sitting with emergency workers. Her biological family didn't even know he existed, they'd had nothing to do with her for years. So this little boy was sitting with a a worker on either side of him. As they lowered mum's coffin, he jumped up and ran towards it crying, going, Where are you putting my mummy? And he was escorted out, and his future would have been he would have been moved from home to home until a permanent home could be found. He'd lost all sense of love, belonging, and without a doubt, later in life, would, you know, self-harm, attempt suicide, use drugs to push all that trauma away. So it was that moment where I thought no one ever talks about the children. I mean, we have this sort of complete stereotype of who an addict looks like, what they are, no one reports on it. They'll talk about the heroin fatalities, they never report about how many children are now without parents. So I went home that night and I picked up the phone. Because of my music background in the UK, I knew a lot of musicians here, and it was a small idea. I rang them up and I said, Can we do a benefit concert? Just for the kids I know that have lost

Founding Mirabel With A Benefit Gig

Jane 16:40

their mum or dad this year, just to buy a Christmas present for them. And within 48 hours, we had a two-night who's who of Australian rock and roll. Because it wasn't about the musicians going, I've got my life together, or it wasn't making any judgment on addiction. It was about this is for the children who no one thinks about, and if we don't get in there early, their future looks really bleak.

Jade 17:10

And what was what felt important to you to get right for those children? So what I love about Mirabel is the dignity and the the non-stigmatising approach that you have, because I think as you know, even today there is still shame that surrounds those beautiful, precious children that have lost their safety, their anchor, their belonging. What felt right what felt important to get right in that moment?

Jane 17:38

It was about it's exactly what you say the shame, blame secrets. It was about that every child would know mum loved you very much, dad loved you very much, and that you are not to blame. Because in the early days of Mirabel, when I would go to, you know, the families, because generally it's grandmothers or family that will take the children on, and you know, the little children, you know, they say to me, I should have taken better care of mommy, it was my fault. Because often it's a child that finds mum or dad overdosed on the sofa. So, and I think children, I think even you know, children's divorced parents often go, it's my fault. What could I have done? So that was one of the key things for me that children didn't inherit the blame. Yeah. They knew that they were absolutely loved by mum and dad. Didn't mean mum and dad didn't make mistakes because, you know, addiction, they weren't well, but it wasn't about them, and that they are worthy. They are worthy people and they can have a future, and that there is always hope. Belonging, I think belonging is such globally. Yeah, I think belonging that the amount of disconnect, I think, in a simplistic way, is a lot of the world problems we have. We all need connection and belonging. It's an absolute fundamental need.

Jade 19:14

Could not agree more.

Jane 19:15

So that was the other thing was I wanted the children to really have a strong sense of belonging.

Jade 19:22

And talk me through those early days. So, you know, you you were a person who was impacted personally in terms of, you know, you saw the impact on that young child, and you went, I'm I have the power to do something about it, so I'm gonna reach out to my friends. From that first benefit, let's call it a sort of a benefit concert. From that, how did Mirabel form? What were the early programs? Where did you start?

Jane 19:47

We started with support groups for the kinship care as grandparents.

Jade 19:51

Yeah.

Jane 19:52

And we started with a very small taking kids for days out camps. So

Early Programs And Trust Built Fast

Jane 20:00

it was that combination. It was a very small team. Two of those team members are still with me today.

Jade 20:07

Love that.

Jane 20:08

Which is so great. So I've always wanted to do whatever we do well, not get big just for the sake of getting big. So, okay, what have we got the resources for? We can run support groups and we can take kids away. And I was really fort fortunate in as much as the Triple J Real Appeal heard about us, so they really got our message out and we raised money, which is why we could initially start doing these little programs. And then 60 Minutes did a thing on uh a piece on us with Jeff McMullen, who's a beautiful, empathetic man, and that drum someone in government saw that. And I mean, we're talking a long time ago, this would never happen now. But they got in touch with me and they came and met in my kitchen because I was running Mirabel from home for the first year.

Jade 21:05

Yeah.

Jane 21:06

And still doing counselling at Windana, and they came and met with me and Nicole, who you know, who's worked with me for decades in my kitchen. They loved what we were trying to do, and they said, We absolutely believe that you are going to establish this, and in good faith, we are gonna give you some funding, and it was done with a handshake over my kitchen table. So it was just those things that allowed us, okay. Now we've got now we can do that, and then you know, one would meet so many wonderful philanthropists. I still believe there are so many more good people around than bad. And you meet a philanthropist, and then I I never sort of got up and thought, Oh, you know, we've got to grow, we've got to get bigger. It was all Very, very organic, and as it happened, it was like okay, now we can actually do this. And we've always spoken a lot to you know other organisations in the sector and families. We never wanted to duplicate what anyone else was doing. What's the point? Let's work together.

Jade 22:18

Absolutely.

Jane 22:19

So we would identify the gap and go, okay, this is what we need to prioritise now with this bit of money we've got, we will start doing this. And so it grew from that very, very small idea to you know where we are now

Grandparents In Kinship Care Need Backup

Jane 22:35

throughout, yeah, Victoria and New South Wales.

Jade 22:39

I want to come back to something you said a bit earlier around the fact that you know the majority when the when these you know when these children lose a parent, quite often it is a grandparent that steps in and and quite often it's the nan. Yes. I could that that I remember watching, I was at one of your events and I watched a video with a with a grand, and oh, like it just my heart ripped open because anyone listening, just put yourself into this mindset. You've just lost one of someone extremely important to you, your child. And then your grandchild, you're now having to go back into parenting to something that you were never prepared for. You were in the role of grandparent and loving that stage in your life, no doubt. And now you have to go back and and go back to those early years and give a sense of safety, hope, and help that young person, and you're grieving yourself. How does the Mirabel program support those grandparents? What does that sense of community look like? Because I know that's a very big part of the work that you do.

Jane 23:47

Yes, well, I think it's again it's about connection and bursting the secret, the shame and the fear. Yeah. Because the fear the grandparents have, oh, my grandchild repeat that behaviour, and um, and their life changes unbelievably, you know, their idea of retirement or socializing, gone. Yeah. And the reason we work with family is because they get minimal, if any, government support. And and that's what we establish setting Mirabel up. If you you know, we can't be everything to everyone, so let's so because without a doubt, if you know, when appropriate, if you can keep a child within family, it is so much better. Yeah. The outcomes are so much better. So for the grandparents, you know, it's about meeting other grandparents or aunts and uncles, and we do that, you know, in support groups, and for them to go, not even my neighbour knows how my daughter died. They think she died in a car accident. So for them to meet, and it's the same in anything, is it? When you meet someone that's walked the same sh in the same shoes, so they solve a lot of each other's problems or support each other. So it's bringing them together as much as we can, and friendship spawn and and reducing isolation because they become so isolated. And then we can do a lot of the referral. What you know, we will find out what they need, and we'll do the legwork, or we think you're eligible for this, or there's a great community center here. So it's about linking them into what they need, whether it's material aid or you know, a community, if it's something for the kids, so we can do all of that legwork and some of the bureaucracy for them, and they can ring us. So, you know, just being able to talk to someone and get it off your chest, and we don't always have the answers, you know, you can't always make it great. But we can understand.

Jade 25:59

Yeah.

Jane 26:00

And I think that for them, and it you know, and be kind. Kindness, god, it's the most underestimated trait, isn't it? And it's not hard, is it? It's not hard.

Big Days Out And Belonging

Jade 26:10

It's not hard.

Jane 26:10

I think we've lost track, yeah. Yeah.

Jade 26:13

General, you know, kindness and respect. Yeah.

Jane 26:17

Yeah. That's something we can guarantee we'll always give.

Jade 26:21

Yeah. In terms of that first interaction with Mirabel, so somebody sadly passes away. What does that process look like? So are you notified and then you take the the step and step in, or do they get referred? Like, what does that first interaction with Mirabel look like? Uh they come to us because they come to you in the country. Yep.

Jane 26:40

And they will be they will hear about us whether it's through Centrelink, whether it's through a school or a counsellor or other people in the sector, they'll go give Mirabel a call.

Jade 26:53

Yeah. And the minute they make that call, that's it. You get into action.

Jane 26:58

Oh yeah. And often, you know, the first phone call can go on for two hours.

Speaker 27:02

Yeah.

Jane 27:03

You know.

Jade 27:03

Because you've you've you've walked that path alongside many people and you know all of the barriers in the system. Yeah. You know all of the you know, all of the different services that you can link in to your point, not replicating, complimenting, which I love. Yep. And then for for the first, I want to talk about the joy of of what you bring to these kids because you know I've I've had the privilege of attending one of your big days out with these beautiful, beautiful children and seeing, seen how you create that wonderful space where these children look around the room and realise that they are among peers and what that does for those kids. So can we talk about those days out, maybe like one that sticks in your mind, or you know, what what are you trying to give those children in that day?

Jane 27:50

It's about them feeling it's not just me. Yeah. And with those days, which is often, and and we you know, we do longer camps and different activities, but the first you know, connection with Mirabal will be exactly what you've said, the big day out.

Jade 28:08

Yeah.

Jane 28:09

So they they come to this big day out not really knowing what it is, a little bit tentative, and then the day started. Generally with little things, get all the kids together, and then it might be, you know, put up your hand if you don't with mum or dad, and you know, they're very nervous and they look around the room and then they realise everyone's got their hand up. Everyone's got their hand up. Yeah. And then childhood is precious, as we know. So it's about them experiencing that, you know, even if it's only for a day, half a day, but those positive memories, trying to put some positive memories into their childhood. And after, you know, the f that first experience, their grandparents will often ring us the next day and go, he came back a different child. He was in the car and he said, Nan, you won't believe it. Everyone there is the same as me. And that's the starting point. Birth the secret. Yeah. And the shame.

Jade 29:14

Absolutely. Because I think in that school environment, they they they may not disclose because they don't, you know, kids don't want to stand out as i in a in any kind of negative way or what's perceived as a negative way. So I just love that that reframes their identity. They're not alone. And again, it comes back to belonging. This is a group of people that I belong with that, you know, I'm not the only one feeling like this, and I'm not the only one living with my auntie or my nan or in care. So I think there's there's just something beautifully bonding about that. So it may, you know, I often look at it and go, you know, if somebody doesn't dig beneath the surface, you go, okay, you're taking the kids for a day out. It is not about the day out. The day out is the vehicle, right? In order to shift that stigma. And I was chatting to Nicole yesterday, actually, um, or no, the day before, and we were talking about, you know, it's now proven by data that, you know, every if for for every seven positive life moments, that is what it takes to counteract severe trauma in children. And we were talking about the fact that at Mirabel, you know, yes, there's the the big days out, but there are multiple other instances through the counselling or the group work or whatever those, you know, sessions may be, where your Mirabel kids are having those seven life, you know, life-affirming, beautiful moments within one year of your program. Yes, let alone how long those those kids are within the Mirabel family. So I just want to say a massive kudos to you for something so simple. And it this is a thing. I think everyone goes, oh, you know, making a difference for these kids, it's huge, it's complex, we can't do it. You've just got to start with simple. Like So true. Yeah.

Jane 30:59

It's the most basic, you know, simple, because we need that foundation to grow. You know, well, we need it as adults as well, but you need that belonging, connection, you know, and that's what we because I think without that, there's nothing to build on.

Jade 31:16

Yeah.

Jane 31:16

You can have the best therapy in the world, but if you haven't got those basics down, you've got nothing to build on. So that's what we're trying to do. They're

Stories That Show Change Is Real

Jane 31:25

very, very simple things.

Jade 31:27

Yeah. And when it works, so what what sort of shifts do you see in the children over time? Is that without naming names, is there anything that that sort of springs to mind? Are there any young people that, you know, you've obviously done this for a number of years and you would have seen these young people, good these children go on to become, you know, thriving, thriving adults. Are there are there any stories that really stand out where somebody, you know, a child was having a really hard time and and you've seen them blossom?

Jane 31:56

Yeah, oh god, I've got so many. And little things too, you know, a a young, you know, child will get in touch with one of the team and go, I've been invited to my first birthday party because normally they've been ostracised at school. And again, that's a shame. You can't say how mum does. So those little things are so powerful for that child. And I always think the simplest things speak the loudest. So I've got a couple of favourite stories. One we we do we do a girls' group for both primary and secondary age kids. But so with one of these girls' groups, and and this was a few years ago, and a a beautiful young girl, and mum had died, and dad was in prison. She was living with her auntie, and all her memories were just domestic violence, but she sort of fantasised about dad coming out of prison, and everything was gonna be wonderful, and she was at this group, and dad was coming out the next day, and she was so excited and she thought everything was gonna be wonderful. Dad was on his way left prison on his way to see her, decided he'd have one hit and died. Didn't even make it. And that eventually got delivered to her. And she said to one of my team at at the group, Oh, I've got it at home. Will you come so I could and be next to me while I open it? And uh the the Mirabel Pastor said, Yeah, of course I will. So they went back home and she had this little box and she opened it, and in the box was a poetry book, and written in it was the dad had written to her mum. And it was to my darling, whatever. I cannot believe that we're gonna have a baby. I am so excited. I love you so much. And this young girl read it and she started crying, and the miracle person put their arm around to comfort her and she said, No, they're tears of happiness, because now I know I was loved. Oh God. And but what a huge you know, in her psa you know, and also Dad did really love Mum. Yeah, my memories are all of my but they did love each other. Yeah. And they were so happy that they were gonna have me. So she realised that she had come from a place of love.

Jade 35:07

Oh, that is, yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And it just shows, you know, I mean, even as adults, right, we cling on to, we cling on to those positive affirmations. That's you know, when times are tough, you need to be able to draw on those things and how you value yourself and and how others see you. Yeah. For her to be able to see that right from the very beginning she was wanted, she was loved, and yes, this has happened, but she can always hold that.

Jane 35:34

Absolutely, it changed everything. And another just a little one, which is a bit different, but again, the the simple things, a beautiful young woman. I worked with you, may even have met her because she's done speaking on behalf of Mirabel, but she had a really tough childhood, a lot of violence, and um she was raised by her Nan, who she adored, and Nan died quite young, which she always put down was due to the stress that her mum had caused, and she had so much anger, and really really couldn't move on from the anger she felt towards her mother. And then when she was hit adolescence and and teenager, she experienced depression, and and we absolutely supported her through that. And then I met her, she was actually which which was absolutely wonderful. She ended up working for a tr big travel agency and was working in London for a while. She was now about 22, and I was in London and we met up for dinner, and she said to me, you know, Jane, I I've been thinking a lot, and I realise now that mum was just depressed, and they never spoke about it then. No, and she self-medicated, and I got depression, but I was so supported. But I've absolutely realised now that mum had no one, did her best, that's why she became addicted, and I so understand that now, and I totally forgive her, and I'm not angry at all. Oh, that's so healing. And how healing is that? Absolutely. And it's a little thing I think it's about the long term, you know, a lot of the Miraball young people say that miracles are constant throughout their life. We're not there to say this is the way to do it, this is the way you must be think. It's to gently help them facilitate getting to their own resolution.

Jade 37:47

And I think what's really important there, because I know this about your work, is it's it's the long-term and it's the consistent, consistent, right? So often, you know, programs, you know, at unlimited, we're very focused on that early intervention and and that the majority of the charities that well, all of the charities that we work with, they're there for as long as the as the young person needs. It's not a case of here's a program, tick the box, fixed. It doesn't work. We know that doesn't work because recovery isn't linear and growth isn't linear. And problems come and go. Life is messy. Situations arise that can trigger people, and you are you are there for the ups and downs and for often you know, multiple generations, you probably end up. I'd say now, I think even talking to Jules, you you're now supporting kids that are kids of people who went through the Mirabel program

Early Intervention Beats Band Aids

Jade 38:35

when they were when they were children, right? Which I think is just a beautiful, beautiful link. But why is early intervention prevention and long-term support, why is that so critical? And why should we put more focus on that in society?

Jane 38:48

Oh yeah. I mean, don't wait for the horse to bolt. It's madness. Don't put a band-aid on. Let's look at the cause. And without a doubt, the earlier you can get in, particularly with young children, the the more you can bring about change. I think, you know, in a kind of a if you if you look at a child that has had, you know, a horrific childhood and then they actually have a very perhaps stable adulthood, that trauma is always there.

Jade 39:26

Yeah.

Jane 39:27

Whereas if you have someone who comes from a very loving sense of belonging background, and their life perhaps becomes very traumatic later, they actually are more resilient because it's that very, very early development that is so critical. And if you get in early, you know, you can prevent whatever it is, you know, the self-labelling, the the the trauma. It's just intervention, you know, even with addiction. Don't wait till someone is 10 years in or whatever. You know, get in there, don't judge, start asking why. Yeah. And and working with them. But I think so often people people get left till they're homeless, poverty, traumatised, repeat cycles, because that's what we do if we don't know any different. And then it's like, well, we're gonna stop throwing money at that because it's hopeless. No, it's not hopeless.

Jade 40:33

I think look at as a society, right? And and this is what I find really fascinating with all of our charities and sometimes the struggle of getting government funding or or you know, the right funding at the right times. I I often just get stuck on this contradiction that we seem to understand in a health capacity that prevention is better than cure. Like we get that. Yep. Right? We uh go to the gym, you know, keep your cholesterol down, like don't it don't have too much junk food, like be active. Like we get that and we fund that. But we don't seem to do that when it's a more nuanced or or complex issue. We seem to wait until we're at absolute the worst case scenario, and then we try and fix it. I'm fascinated. Do you have an opinion on why we're like that? Like, why is that the case?

Jane 41:18

I Well, whether it's you know funds being put where they shouldn't be put, money being misspent, I don't really know why it happens. But I think for a lot of the community, they feel overwhelmed by it. And we're not told individually enough, no, you can make a difference. I think, you know, particularly look at the world today. It's overwhelming. So people shy away from it. But I think if we realise we can all make a difference, one little gesture can change the trajectory. It's not, you know, you just yeah. Uh that's why I think people are overwhelmed, shy away from it, and go, the problem's too big.

Jade 42:03

Yeah, completely agree.

Jane 42:05

Whereas if we bring it back, and that's what we're saying earlier, even an act of kindness can actually change something. We don't all have to be, you know, giving money, our behaviour can change how people feel about themselves.

Jade 42:22

Absolutely, and and just not making assumptions. And if you um I think you know, and this has come up in quite a few of my episodes, which I I love because it it reinforces, you know, why I'm doing this. Because I firmly believe that if we, especially at a time like now, if we do get sucked into the overwhelm, then uh we are we are just not showing up in in humanity how we could, and it we do not all need to be absolute change makers, but you can change one person's life in a very, very finite small amount of time with an act of kindness. I was talking to Bronwyn from the Pajama Foundation actually earlier this week, and and that'll be another one of the episodes. Terrific. Yeah, oh incredible. I know that

Simple Kindness That Shifts Everything

Jade 43:05

that you guys, and again, that's that complimentary thing. I know that you guys, you know, obviously are quite connected in in your work. And she was she was talking about, you know, her her sort of her founding moment and the fact that there was this young girl in her school who didn't get invited to to the school party, and so she made her made sure her daughter invited her, and that was you know, just that really and you've mentioned the same thing happening that that you've seen where from from the Mirabel kid actually being invited to their first party. Yeah every single parent listening to this, that's what you look out for. Absolutely. Who's the child who isn't being invited? Why aren't they being invited? And don't, you know, don't well don't even look at the why. Just go, they should be invited. Every yeah, acceptance, no judgment. And you know, yeah, don't yeah don't assume.

Jane 43:52

You don't know. You know, the judgment, you know, often say if because our children inherit our value. Values and opinions. And I think if you know, a miracle child, if you can imagine, they've they've lost their family, they've had to move, they're now being raised by a grandparent, they're going to a different school, they don't know anyone, and they all dread that question, why are you with your nan? Or how did mum die? And they come up with the most unbelievable answers to avoid the truth. Wouldn't it be amazing if a child could hold their head up and just go, My mum died from an overdose, they loved me very much, but made bad choices. Yeah. That would change the trajectory of their schooling and everything, but they can't, so they have to start by fibbing, lying, because they know they won't get asked to a friend's house if they know what. So we can all do that. You know, we can make our children. Has it got better over the years or worse? Uh I don't think it's changed that. Don't think it's changed? I mean, maybe, maybe a little bit. I mean, the drug culture's definitely changed a lot. But no, I think, well, we know, you know, judgment comes from fear, doesn't it? So people are still very fearful if they hear the where the word drugs or addiction, you know, they're not able to separate, well, that child doesn't have a drug problem, that child doesn't have an addiction problem, you know. But they yeah, I think there's a lot of fear in that.

Jade 45:34

Yeah. So I'm just trying to think about the the community that surrounds the child, right? So how important when these when these when these really sad instances happen where a child has lost a parent, how important is it? And and how do you instigate, you know, that community getting around the child and the carer? And what what shifts do you see the minute that that that happens?

Jane 46:04

Well, that there's a huge shift. You can see everyone breathing a bit easier. I it's acceptance. Acceptance. You know, for the the grandparents, we'll go, oh, it's such a relief, you know, they know and they were so understanding. And I think for children, you know, a classic example would be a traumatised child, you know, will start a new school and you know, be sent out of class every day because they can't concentrate. And if when we're able to talk to the teachers there, yeah, and go, this is coming from that, because no child actually wakes up going, I want to be really naughty and do this, but that's a coping thing. Yeah. So once the teachers know the background, they can totally accommodate that. So if the grandparent has confidence that the school can know the truth, and you know, it's a whole ripple effect. If

Schools, Trauma Support And Learning

Jane 47:05

everyone in that child's community understands the whys of the behaviour, then we all it changes.

Jade 47:13

Yeah, instead of looking at the behaviour itself, ask what has happened, what is caused, and what are you trying to say? Yeah. Because in that behaviour, they are trying to say something, and it's not I'm being naughty. That's right. It's I am really struggling right now. And yeah, this this environment is not bringing out the best in me. Yeah.

Jane 47:31

And you know, with our education program, because some of the kids aren't aren't ready to join mainstream school, they're not even at a point yet to have, you know, standard tutoring. We have amazing, which you know, we pay for, but bring in amazing trauma informed therapists.

Jade 47:51

Yeah.

Jane 47:51

And it's incredible. And you know, the the progress that's made. We have seen countless children through that, and then they do other tutoring. We have a Mirabel Online Learning Club, they do that, and then they're a mainstream school. I mean, how amazing. Because the other thing is education's critical. You know, emotionally you need that belonging, connection, community, but you need an education.

Jade 48:21

And it's the it's it's even uh like I've done a lot of reading in you know, the power of words and the power of language. And if we don't give kids the the vocabulary to be able to express what they're feeling, yes, then they can't they can't let those those wounds heal, they can't get those emotions out. So that in the importance of being able to give them the tools with which to express what they're feeling. Now I know another one of our charities I've spoken to, Margo from from Kids Xpress, trauma-informed, you know, creative play therapy. So many kids don't have the words, no, but they have the you know, they have creative modalities that they can use to to express that. So I love that link that you're talking about there. And I think that also harks back to your creativity and and your music background. And you know, I imagine music was a solace for you going through some of those hard times that we can all relate that sometimes words aren't enough. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. So, in the so we'll talk a little bit about the the the amazing youth

The Gift Behind Great Youth Workers

Jade 49:20

workers that that come and and um interact with these precious children. Who are they? How do you find them? What makes a great youth worker? Like what are you looking for in your team?

Jane 49:32

Well, you know, all the sort of qualifications and academics you can teach people. They learn. What I think our team have is a gift. They have kindness, they have compassion, and you can't teach that. And they are incredible, they can make a child feel like they're the only child in the room. Yeah. That is a gift to be able to do that, and it's a certain energy, and that's what I think my incredible team have. And they, you know, they will learn and they become, you know, incredibly experienced and qualified, but they have that initial gift and and commitment, that belief that we yeah, we can make a difference here.

Jade 50:28

I'm really interested, you know, you you've been doing this for for a minute. As I've as have I. We've been around for a minute. What does the future look

Lifting Shame And Planning For Legacy

Jade 50:40

like for you? Now, you know, what is your what is your what is the the pathway to to future, future Jane? What do you hope the the legacy of your incredible work will leave for this foundation? What do you want to see? What do you want to see, Mirabel? I know it's not about growth for you, it's about depth and and impact.

Jane 51:00

Look, I would just love, you know, that children are able to talk about what happened to them. I would love to see that shame is lifted, prejudice is lifted. That's what I hope for the future of Mirabel kids. As far as the future of Mirabel itself, I'm surrounded by amazing people. And I'm certainly, you know, not looking at, you know, moving on or doing anything right now. But when the, you know, when the time comes, past the baton, it will be in amazing hands. You know, times change, things might be done differently, but I don't have an ounce of worry about that. I I know that our values are so kind of concrete and our commitment that it will absolutely go on, you know, and it's sort of bittersweet, you think. Wouldn't it be great if there wasn't a need for Mirabel?

Jade 52:04

Yes.

Jane 52:05

But uh and it's a big picture again, you know, it's like what you said, you know, there's health, there's this, there's that. While there's hopelessness, whilst there's addiction, why, you know, whilst things remain to be illegal, of course it's gonna continue.

Jade 52:24

Yeah.

Jane 52:24

Because I think a lot of the time addiction is about pushing down our inner angst or hopelessness or fear.

Jade 52:33

Yeah, self-coping. Self-coping.

Jane 52:36

Yeah, yeah. So so that will continue, and particularly whilst there's still shame around that. So sadly, you know, I think Mirabel's got its work cut out for a long time. But maybe by talking, you know, like we are now, children will be able to talk more about it. People will think, oh yeah, I'd never thought about the kids. Oh yeah, of course the kids don't take drugs themselves. Of course they're not. You know, that's what we want to do, isn't it? Change the conversation a little bit.

Jade 53:04

Absolutely. And I think, you know, the power in the kids being able to talk about it is they're way less likely to to end up 100%. You know, again, it's that it's that logical step of going if they if they don't have the ability to talk about it and they feel that shame, then they're gonna have to, you know, self-medicate to cope with those feelings. There is nothing more corrosive than shame and disgust. Just the cycles repeat, repeat, repeat. So as a society, you know, I always love to go, well, what are some simple things that that people listening can do? And I think, you know, I'll I'll open that up for you, but I'll I'll probably say one that is from my perspective. But I think, you know, obviously I'm in the industry of of advertising and marketing, and I think we as an industry have an amazing opportunity to influence hearts and minds and to say the things that that you know need to be said. And I think, you know, more stories, more storytelling with lived experience that is destigmatising some of these issues, more bravery in in in showing people what real empathy and understanding looks like. What else what can everyday people do in their community if they know a family affected by these tragic circumstances? What can people do?

Jane 54:18

Be kind, smile at them. You don't need to barge in, but slowly, you know, even a smile can kind of say, I see you, I accept. I just think it's kindness, yeah. You know, in so many different ways and connection, you know, it's like you see someone homeless, you might not have any money to give them. But you can still give them your eye contact. You can give them your eye contact. And I I think there is so much disconnection on so many levels that we we can all do that. Just connect. You don't have to be there for half an hour, but but just be just be kind. Yeah. And don't judge or jump to conclusions because no one no one chooses to be homeless, no one chooses to have an addiction. What is it that

The Promise To Never Turn Away

Jane 55:10

has got them there? Yeah. And I think kindness is the most critical first step.

Jade 55:17

Absolutely, absolutely. One of the things I just want to talk a little bit about you know, from a from a business point of view, you know, one of the commitments that that you make, which is I think it's a very big promise, and it's it's one of the things I love is to never turn a child away. Like never. And obviously you've got capacity, you've got resources, there's many things, you know, back to your time working in as a counsellor, and you've only got so many beds, right? Well, in your organisation, you've only got so many staff, so many hours, so many programs. What has it asked of you and the organization over the years to hold that promise?

Jane 55:50

Well, it's something we just refuse to waver on. And we, you know, we go back to the drawing board a lot. We've learned to do things more cost-effectively if we need to. We can look at doing things where we can accommodate more people in one particular setting. And actually, who would have thought, you know, with COVID, the one great thing that came out of it was online and Zoom. So we we can use a lot of that, particularly with grandparents. You know, what we realise now is that actually the best time, rather than driving to come to our groups, they're available with a cup of tea when they got the kids to bed. So we do evening ones. Yeah. So there's a lot of things we we do to become more time effective, cost-effective, and we we're very mindful of the resources we have, and we will never start a program unless we feel we've got at least three years' commitment to run it because we're working with kids that have got so many abandonment issues, so we're not gonna start something that we go, all let's hope we can keep this going. Do what we do really well and be solid with it. So we just we just manage. And I think we manage well. I don't think the quality of our services have been compromised in any way whatsoever. But it is if a child or family needs help and they're ringing, you don't go, oh yeah, well, I'll get back to you when there's room. People need to be heard there and then, and nothing, nothing will change us from that core belief.

Jade 57:32

Yeah, I love that. I mean, it and I think you know that sets the bar um so beautifully high. And so it should, because that's the dignity and that's what these kids and the carers deserve.

Jane 57:42

Yeah.

Jade 57:42

I might just wrap with a little, a little reflection, because what I love about your your journey coming from the UK over over to here is the fact that you basically just tried things and there was no plan, there was no career kind of aspirations. You basically kind of followed your

Life Advice For Young People

Jade 58:00

heart and then you found your place, you found your purpose. So I I think that for me is just such a a beautiful example to give to our to our young listeners, right? So I was talking to my beautiful 18-year-old nephew who's living with me at the moment, and I hope he doesn't mind me mentioning him. But he was talking to me about, you know, he's 18 and he feels like he should have a career, and he's behind the eight ball and he needs to, he needs to decide what he wants to do. And, you know, I was having that conversation going, you're 18. This is where you try things on. This is where you try things, and you might not like that, but you might like this, and like trust that your pathway will unfold through experience. So I think if you were talking to, you know, young Jane today, when you didn't, you know, you're not running this organisation, you're right at the beginning of your young adulthood. What would your reflections be? Are you how do you reflect back on that journey? And is there anything you would have done differently, or would you do it all the same?

Jane 59:04

No, I think I needed to do it all the same to be where I am now. I can look back certain things and think, oh, with a bit of maturity, I would have handled that differently.

Jade 59:17

Yeah.

Jane 59:18

But ultimately, you know, my life's kind of done a full circle, and without those mistakes, it wouldn't have happened. But are there things that I regret? Yeah. Are there things that I would change? Nah.

Jade 59:34

I completely agree. I think the the moments of hardship sometimes, you know, that's where we learn the deep lessons. And I think I look back at my own life and kind of go, there are lessons I could have learned easier. Yep. There are definitely some. But would I change it? Hell no. Because I wouldn't be sat here, I wouldn't be doing the work I'm doing. I wouldn't have the husband I've got. You know, you don't. So I think it's it's you've got to almost, you know, you've got to as you as you go through them, it's really hard because you don't have that perspective. It can feel really heavy. But when you're able to, you know, when you get a bit older in life, you're able to look back and go, actually, I wouldn't change a thing. No, it's your resume. Yeah, absolutely.

Jane 1:00:12

And I think, you know, regarding, you know, with your nephew, you know what I always said to my kids, and I say to young people, you know, at that young age, it's really important, it's more important to know what you don't want to do than knowing what you do. Yeah. And I think that gives us a clear direction.

Jade 1:00:32

Absolutely. And how are you going to show up in the world? Yep. And the most important, the reason that I'm so proud of him, he's kind. That's right. He cares. Yeah. You know, he's got a beautiful heart. Like, you know, that's what we want for all of the children and young people in our in our lives, you know. Just be a good human being. Just be a good human. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, we might end there, Jane, because that feels like a nice, a nice place to end. As always, I will put the links to Mirabel Foundation and the incredible work that you and the team do. I just want to say on behalf of all

Closing And How To Follow

Jade 1:01:05

the families, and you know, it's not my place to do it, but I I know that they would want to say it a huge thank you for making that first step, for giving a shit, for showing up, and for continuing to fight for these beautiful, beautiful children and carers. It's an absolute honour to have you here. I am yeah, just so thankful that we could make the time today. And we'll leave it there, I think. We're out. Thanks, Jane.

Jane 1:01:30

Pleasure and a privilege, always. Thank you, darling.

Jade 1:01:38

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