Leaning In - Communication, Culture and Change

Most EDI training tells people what to think. Almost none of it tells people what to say next.

In this episode, Esi is joined by Nzinga Orgill, founder and CEO of AVI2I, who has spent her career turning EDI theory into something people can actually use in the moment, in real conversations, with real stakes. Nzinga walks through the Three Rs framework she developed after watching brilliant training land and then fall apart the second someone had to have an actual difficult conversation, along with what she is seeing work inside organisations right now.

Esi and Nzinga also open up about their own lived experience, growing up mixed race in Birmingham and in the north of Scotland, the assumptions people made about them, and how that shaped the work they now both do. It is a conversation about language, but it is really a conversation about power, access and what it actually takes to build a culture where people are not just present in the room, but heard once they are in it.

If you are an EDI lead trying to move a stalled agenda forward, a manager or L&D director looking for something practical to take back to your organisation, or a disabled listener who has felt the impact of careless communication firsthand, this episode gives you a framework to work with and two people worth following for more.

In this episode:

●      Why "we don't discriminate" is the bare minimum, not the finish line

●      The Three Rs framework: Read, Respond, Repair

●      How to prepare for a difficult conversation you cannot fully prepare for

●      What actually moves the needle on engagement, attrition and psychological safety

●      Nzinga's story: name, heritage, and building a career from the frontline up

●      Esi and Nzinga on resentment, tokenism and turning lived experience into purpose

●      A simple first step for leaders who do not know where to start

Want more from Nzinga? Find her on LinkedIn and at AVI2I for more on responsible, inclusive communication, including recordings of past webinars and workshops. Details below.

LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/nzinga-orgill
Website: https://www.avi2i.com
Responsible Inclusive Communication Maturity Assessment: https://lnkd.in/eqnSUaux

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Ultimately, we know that the evidence for things around a not particularly inclusive culture would be showing up in your employee engagement surveys or some of the things that I spoke about before around high attrition rates, high sickness, high grievance, you know, things being escalated to you know employment tribunals and lack of talent. With with the work that we're doing around the three R's and also around the bigger programme of responsible and inclusive communication, we are seeing results. So organizations that take the time to honestly do the DEI work but then build on it with how they communicate about it, are finding higher engagement, are finding an increase in psychological safety, are then seeing people more inclined to come forward and share and not just wait for a yearly employee engagement survey to come out, but actually speaking to line managers or people they trust within the business about things that are coming up that can help to support and improve that culture.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

So hello and welcome everybody. Thank you very much for joining us again to another episode of the Equality Edit where we unpack equality one story at a time. Today it's really lovely weather, and today I'm joined by a guest, Enzinga, who's going to talk to you about why equality is important to her. And we're going to talk about subjects to do with lived experience and how we bring bring that to reality and also kind of inclusive communication and subjects around that. So without any further ado, I'll hand over to Enzinga to introduce herself. Hello, thank you so much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Hello, Essie.

Meet Nzinga: inclusive communication at AVI2I

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Hello, listeners. Thank you so much for having me. Yes, you are right. The sun is out, it's out by me, and hopefully the sun is out by all of our listeners as well. It's wonderful to be here. My name is Enzinga Orgill. I am founder and CEO of AVI2I, and we are all about responsible communication. And when we talk about communication, obviously it's not just what we're saying to each other, it's also the environments that we create through our policies, process systems, and our infrastructure. So it's really almost taking what we have with existing D ⁇ I practices and taking it a step forward in terms of what that means that we do in our day-to-day as individuals through our own lens and filters. So yeah, that's what I do, and that's me.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

That's amazing. And I'm really excited about the subject. Inclusive communication and inclusive language is something that I think is really important, especially not just but but in the world of disability as well. I worked a lot in the um public and social care sector in my career, and I worked in the charity sector and disability charities, and so often they used to use language that disempowered disabled people and you know built up or kind of reinforced the stereotypes around disability. Um and I used to be so much work in the organizations that I worked with around, you know, the importance of considering the language you used and considering its impact on the people around you, not just the disabled people around them, but you know, the general public who would be influenced by the language they'd be using.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Yeah, absolutely. You know, for me, I've spent quite a lot of time in the diversity, inclusion, equality space. And the the thing that keeps coming up for me is the use of language and how we communicate. And, you know, I go so far as to say obviously language has been very much centered around the lived experience of the majority and those who are often not marginalized. And it's about really, you know, understanding how we can bring everybody into all conversations. And I love the point you made, Essie, around impact. My goodness, you know, responsible, inclusive communication is really about that. It's about taking what you're intending in terms of what you're saying and linking it to the impact it has on those you are saying it to and to the communities that you're serving. You know, we've got a lot of amazing people saying some wonderful things, but actually, what does it mean for those that are impacted? How are they left feeling? What type of culture does it create? So it's really important to fully understand this and how you can be a part of making sure you're responsibly and inclusively communicating.

Where EDI training was falling short

SPEAKER_01 4:22

That's so interesting. How do you start kind of those conversations and that work with organizations?

SPEAKER_00 4:28

A great question. So, you know, my background is aviation. I've done a lot in terms of project management, learning and development. I've been involved in innovation projects and I've been in operational management. I think it's fair to say wherever my career has taken me, it's been very much around, you know, prioritizing the interests and the experiences of people, whether they're employees, whether their customers, whether their supply chain, whether they're our community. And every single space I've occupied, what's always come up has been communication. In particular around responsible inclusive communication. When I set up my consultancy around five years ago and I was going in and delivering some really great DEI training, DEI facilitation in many organizations that were wondering what they could do to move the agenda forward. The training was landing, the information was doing what it needed to do, but what was coming up was actually particular experiences. And I'll give you an example. I did a training around, you know, cultural competence and being inclusive. And the session was very well received. People felt empowered in terms of what it was all about, and it really raised the level of awareness in terms of the understanding behind it. However, there were particular instances within the teams that were attending that session where there had been interactions that hadn't gone particularly well. And yes, it's great they understand what cultural competence is, but what does that mean in terms of the individuals who have to then go out there and engage with other people and have conversations and have interactions? What does it mean for those individuals? And I recall coming someone coming over and saying to me, like, I know now what cultural competence means and I understand it, but I just don't know how to even start a conversation. I don't know how to even repair potentially a relationship that might have been damaged because of the lack of cultural competence. What can I do? Because I have the awareness, but now I don't have the tools to implement that awareness in a way that will get the outcome that I want. So based on that SC and based on that being multiple conversations, I thought there needs to be some stuff, some framework, some support around what people can do. So on the back of that, I created a framework which is the three Rs, and they're quite simple. And anyone who knows me, first of all, will know that I do love, first

The Three Rs: Read, Respond, Repair

SPEAKER_00 6:44

of all, things in threes or fours, preferably threes. I do like acronyms. I'm from an airport background, so everything was heavily acronymed. But as a responsible, inclusive communicator, I know that not everybody understands acronyms, so it's important that I explain them. So whilst I am saying three Rs, I will tell you what those Rs are. Brilliant. Thank you. I just think it's a really simple way of people being able to respond in the live moment of when things are happening in a way that doesn't panic them, overwhelm them, but then empowers them and allows them to get the most out of the interaction. So the three R's are as follow. The first R is about reading the room. And when I talk about reading the room esse, I don't just mean reading the room in terms of the environment that you're around. I don't just mean read the room in terms of the people you might be communicating with. Reading the room is also about reading ESI, reading who I am, reading what's going on with me in that given moment, what filters and what lens am I approaching this communication through? Because let's be real, we're all humans. There are going to be days where we're probably better at communicating than other days. And it's worth acknowledging that. So, first of all, read the room and understand is this the right time and place to have this conversation? Now, sometimes there might not be a choice in the situation and you do need to act in that moment. But other times it might be a case of, you know, Essie's had a really tough day today, and to have this conversation now probably wouldn't do it the justice that it needs to be done. So let me find a space and a time to pick this up. So that's the first thing to read the room, read the environment, read the people, read yourself, and then really have a think about what you want to say. So the second R is respond. And this is, for example, if you and I are having an exchange, something's come up and it's not necessarily gone particularly well, and you thought, hold on a minute, Envinger, let me just read the room, read myself, read the environment, read you, and then let me respond. And the reason why I say respond is because respond is being really thoughtful and intentional about what comes after that initial communication. It's not reacting, and that's what we, you know, often do, even though we think it's responding, we react to something, whether it's an emotion, whether it's in a feeling, and it might be a legitimate reaction, but what's important is we take the time to self-regulate. So Essie, you know, is in a conversation with Enzinga when Enzinga something that says something that's kind of upset Essie. Is Essie reacting to that or is she taking the time to self-regulate and to respond? Because responding is important, it gives you the confidence to know that you are actually really listening to what's being said and being considerate and thoughtful about the response that then happens. And the third R is if it ever goes there. So there might be an instance where you and I have an exchange and actually, I don't want to talk to you no more, and you don't want to talk to me. It's understanding how to repair the relationship. And Estee, when I talk about repair, I don't mean you and I are now best friends and we're kikiing away and life is great. I mean that we find a way of amicably working, amicably working together. We find a way of repairing the relationship and being able to build back what was lost in trust. Or we find a way of just saying, right, this is where we are in terms of where we want the relationship to be, which might mean in some instances there is no interaction and there is no engagement. But what is important is it's communicated and it's understood. You know, I've been in instances where I've supported organizations and I'll coach people through using the three R's and the repair bit hasn't always been fully done. So whilst there has been a response, we don't know where the relationship sits. Are we in speaking terms? Are we not speaking? Are we still upset? Are we back to a good place? And it is so important because ultimately it will then dictate and decide how you communicate with that individual going forward. But I think that's one framework that I've used on quite a few occasions that people have found really, really helpful and something that I definitely use all the time.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

I think that framework is is is brilliant. Recently, just a side note on language, um, try and avoid the word actually because I'm like, oh, actually, that was really good. And it sounds like I didn't expect it to be good and you surprised me. So I avoid actually, but I think that framework is so it's tangible, it's relatable, and it's not just relatable for conversations you're having with others, it's also I think relatable for how you can man handle yourself and look after yourself as a person, can't you? Read, I think is so so helpful. Read yourself before you start. So how am I feeling today? The amount of times I've gone into a room, whether it's a digital space or an actual room, where I haven't realized, I've realized really quickly I didn't take the time to prepare myself and I haven't kind of read myself to network in the not the most, I don't mean the most professional like I'm unprofessional, but but to get the most out of it as I possibly can, or I'm not in the right frame of mind. And then to kind of see from other people how they're managing in the space as well. And I also, I mean, respond is really helpful, but the last one, repair, I think that's so helpful as well. And I think that quite often that's something that I miss out personally, quite often. It's so easy to just, you know, I'll avoid that bit because that's where the sticky icky bits come from. Um, and when we talk about people in the workplace as well, I can see this can as this must be so tangible and helpful to enable line managers to feel confident in that space to go on and have conversations with people.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

Yeah, absolutely. And that's the intention behind it, Etsy. You know, it's not about making it overly complicated so people feel scared to use it or don't really know how to apply it. It's about really breaking it down so it's useful and it's a good, you know, gauge to check in with when you are having those conversations. And and much like yourself, repair for me is probably out of the three R's the one that stands out the most for me because that's probably why we're not having as many inclusion conversations as we should be, because there has been some type of fracture in a relationship or or something that's led to an uncomfortable, you know, interaction that's meant the relationship isn't where it needs to be. And I think through repair means we can continue to have those conversations. So it's a really important part of the whole you know interaction that is often overlooked. And people will prefer to avoid than to step in and say, you know, mix it esse. Can I go over and repair that relationship and be prepared for whatever that repair looks like? Or am I gonna dodge her every time she walks into the restroom for a coffee because I don't know what to say to her? Or am I gonna find a way of excluding her from interactions or or from projects or from meetings or from spaces that I have to occupy because I'm so uncomfortable? Yeah. That's kind of where it really sits, Essie, the whole uncomfortable piece because responsible, inclusive communication is uncomfortable. But the intention behind that discomfort is that it creates comfort for majority and all of us rather than discomfort for those that are the ones that might need to have the conversation and also long-term discomfort for those who are really willing for the impact to be beneficial to the culture that they're part of.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

Absolutely. And just going back to what you were saying about kind of what are the the kind of the knock-on effects, not having those conversations in the workplace, as you articulated the knock-on effect is that person doesn't get invited to the to the meeting, to the strategy meeting. Therefore, they're never put forward for the project because they're not showing how innovative they are. Therefore, they never get that promotion. And also, I think that that encourages that stereotype thinking as well. You know, but you know, I spoke to Essie and she was quite annoying. She didn't do what I wanted her to do. Therefore, all disabled mixed-race people are probably like that too. Whether that's conscious or unconscious, that happens over and over again. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Now, let's be real, leaders like to feel comfortable. They like to feel that they're doing the right thing. In fact, we all like to feel comfortable. You know, we are so happy to be told we're doing a great job or things are going the way that we want them to, because it's a natural thing. We want to feel good about the things that we're doing. There might be things that we need to work on, and that's the uncomfortable space that not many of us like to occupy. You know, no one wants to be told, see, that communication didn't land particularly well, or maybe the impact you were thinking of having wasn't the impact that was had and felt. And I think it's about leaning into that because ultimately, if you're a person that's leading people, it's always going to change. You might attempt to do the right thing for everybody, but they're going to be some people who, again, if we are conscious about them being individual, will have different lenses and them, different filters, so therefore different experiences. For me, with the three R's, the intention is where possible to really do as much due diligence before you're having that communication exchange. You know, you won't always mitigate against there being conversation that doesn't land particularly well. But what it means is you can say, well, actually, going into this, I really tried to make sure I was aware of the situation and circumstances, the people and myself. You know, as you responded, I really took the time and care to think about the impact of my words on the individual I was responding to. And now because it hasn't landed well, I'm really conscious about wanting to bring this back to a place where we can operate and get what we need out of our interaction. And, you know, when we think about what that means for business, you know, I can sit here and talk to you about the business case for DEI and why it's so important. And to be fair, Essie, as a responsible inclusive communicator, it isn't even about me telling you why you should be doing it. It should be me telling you what you're missing out on in not doing it. You know, absolutely you're missing out on people not being invited to strategy meetings. You're losing talent, you're getting disengaged employees, you're getting high attrition rates, high sickness, high grievance processes. Talent ain't gonna want to come to your organization because guess what? You're not responsible and inclusive in how you communicate. So therefore, people don't want no part of it. And we already know that the younger generation prioritise it and it's important. Yeah. So there are so many reasons why we shouldn't be thinking about not having it. But again, because it centers around leaning into what is uncomfortable, people find other ways to go around it or other ways to ensure that it's in place.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

So true, so true. And I think something that you said there, kind of as a leader, it's our responsibility and leaders' responsibility to lean into this because the clue is in the title, leading, you're leading the way. It is about the kind of if you if you prepare yourself ahead of the conversation, then you're more, you know, you're more equipped to handle it in the right way or or kind of move it forward in the right way. So I also loved what you were saying about kind of preparing yourself before you go into a conversation. I mean, we're not always going to get it right. You know, things happen. Um, we don't know what the other person's going to say, we don't, we don't know what else is going to be triggering for the other person. But knowing that we have prepared ourselves, hopefully that will come across in our body language and how we show up in that room. So the other person, when moving into the repair stage, will understand that it came from a place of wanting to do the right thing and there was no malice behind

Using the Three Rs in the moment, not just in theory

SPEAKER_01 17:45

it as well.

SPEAKER_00 17:45

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's such a brilliant point, Essie. You know, we haven't all got hours and hours to prepare for every interaction we're going to have. You know, reading isn't about necessarily taking as long as you can possibly take. There might be some conversations that you know that are coming up that you do have the time and the foresight to prepare for, but it might be an interaction that's just literally happening there and then. And so what I try and implement and encourage others to implement is, you know, read the environment. So if you're having this conversation, it started off, look around you, take it all in as much as you can, and obviously be present in that conversation, but be mindful about what's coming up for you, what might be happening with that individual. You might have a difficult conversation that's happening because someone who you're speaking to is going for a hard time. That would absolutely be something you would need to factor in before you even consider the response. So it's about being able to do it live and in the moment. Also, Essie, sometimes we are so caught off guard, we don't have time to do anything. Let me be clear, it's not every time I can apply the three R's in every conversation. But what it can mean for me is I can go away and retrospectively think, okay, and Zinga, you read the room, but you probably didn't read the room fully. You didn't read yourself fully, you didn't read the individual because there might be information you didn't see in that moment, things that come to light later. So again, you know, you're able to think about your response, or if you've responded, build on that response, or if you've responded and it's caused an issue with the relationship, have that come in as part of the repair. So I'm saying it's not always about getting it right and being sort of prepared the first time, but it's about being aware that it's something that's important to you and then bringing it in when you can to make sure that that communication is responsible and inclusive. Because the alternative essay is irresponsible exclusive communication, which is absolutely what we don't want.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

And do you use so this tool that I love this tool? Is this a tool that you invented yourself?

SPEAKER_00 19:39

So something that I've been exploring with. So there've been different iterations around like scanning the horizon or thinking about, you know, how to say things and how to structure things. But the three R's are something that we've developed at ABI. So why? Because we thought, again, let's be clear, it could be 10 R's SE if I really wanted it to be. But no one's going to remember 10 R's, are they? And, you know, whilst there's a natural build on all of these R's, for me, when I was guiding and advising people, this felt like the three areas where they could really get some tangible benefits from the interactions that they were having. And, you know, it was a good getting point. So yeah, just

Does it work? Measuring the impact on engagement and culture

SPEAKER_00 20:16

to answer your question.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Really love it. It's, you know, as you said, that you can go on and have 10, 50 hours, but they're really tangible, they're easy, you know, they're not actually that hard to remember because they're relatable to what we do without considering it anyway. So yeah, no, I I love them. Thinking about kind of measuring success off the back of those or in general, is this something that is easily measured? And what success have you seen off the back of it in teams that you've worked with?

SPEAKER_00 20:43

It's a great question. You know, ultimately, we know that the evidence for things around a not particularly inclusive culture would be showing up in your employee engagement surveys or some of the things that I spoke about before around high attrition rates, high sickness, high grievance, you know, things being escalated to employment tribunals and lack of talent. With the with the work that we're doing around the three R's and also around the bigger program of responsible inclusive communication, we are seeing results. So organizations that take the time to obviously do the DEI work, but then build on it with how they communicate about it, are finding higher engagement, are finding an increase in psychological safety, are then seeing people more inclined to come forward and share and not just wait for a yearly employee engagement survey to come out, but actually speaking to line managers or people they trust within the business about things that are coming up that can help to support and improve that culture. So, you know, it's sometimes it can be quite hard to measure if you're not looking at the right places and spaces, but we're absolutely seeing a benefit behind that. You know, I recently did a um a webinar for the Association for Project Management because as someone who's got a project management background responsible. inclusive communication is so needed there because again, you know, project management, yes, very, very important to have it being compliant and regulatory and done in the right way. But we were also dealing with people and how we bring in different project teams at different levels in different life cycles is so, so important. And again, you know, dude carrying out that exercise already had feedback from individuals who attended the session that spoke about how much more open the project meetings were, how much they were able to risk mitigate sooner because guess what? People were raising concerns, which they normally wouldn't say because guess what? There is no responsible inclusive communication. So the results are there and they're there to be seen. It's just again obviously focusing on what that

Nzinga's story: name, heritage and growing up in Birmingham

SPEAKER_00 22:44

that looks like.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Yeah and looking at looking for them as well and knowing what requests to ask to get them. Brilliant excellent. So I want to kind of talk more about you yourself really I can tell you know like me you're really really passionate about the work that you're doing. So I'm finding through these conversations that there's many different avenues that people have come to kind of their EDI work and their passion for EDI from either from lived experience or actually a lot of the time from lived experience and coming from that culprit space and thinking you know what I want to do things differently I'm going to do it myself. But what is your story?

SPEAKER_00 23:21

So first of all my favorite subject essay so you might have to unplug my mic or tell me to stop. I can't hear you I'm so sorry it's cutting out you can hear me but um yeah I think do you know what um I'm not gonna um skip over this I think my parents knew exactly what they were doing when they named me Enzinger. You know I and it was such an interesting journey because being named an African name I've got a Jamaican heritage in terms of parents and I was born and raised in Birmingham there was always a bit of a confusion around who I am where I came from and you know I'd encourage conversations to talk about me because again it's my favorite subject but I'd also be very aware of some of the assumptions that were made because of my name and what I might present myself looking like physically. But um for me the journey started from quite young from lived experiences from interactions you know spending time with with parents my my father's a rastafarian my mum has has dreadlocks as well some of the prejudices and the encounters face because of what people would look like. Also my own lived experience like at the moment from a visual description of black women I've got you know probably shoulder length braids but I know when I change up and I have probably what would be deemed more Europeanised styles I'm received differently and the interactions I have are both very very different. And just then moving into spaces where it felt like I wasn't necessarily embraced in the right way. Like I mentioned born and raised in Birmingham so very culturally diverse city I had friends from all different types of backgrounds we all enjoyed connecting and spending time with each other. And when I moved to London I think late early 2000s for university because I I went to central London to do law and I realised how how different the experience was because there were a lot less people like me and also just a couple of you know interactions where it definitely wasn't responsible and inclusive but being eliminated from groups or spaces because my name was too difficult to pronounce or people couldn't be bothered to learn it and just therefore for that reason I wasn't worth getting to know because my name was a barrier which again was you know not a particularly pleasant experience. And then moving within the aviation sector and working my way up so I started frontline searching bodies and bags loved the role then was able to progress through the organisation and take lots of different you know career paths all under one umbrella and one thing I remember being really clear about is as I got further up to senior leadership how very much it didn't look like me and how very much there weren't spaces where I was you know able to kind of find a commonality through experience because a lot of the people were coming from a different perspective. Not to say just because you might be a fellow black woman you'd have the same perspective as me but there might be some alignments around experience. I found you know there were conversations had with me about performance you know stretch and yes whilst you're identified as top talent end zinger, you know, you need to do a little bit more to show that you're ready for a role and opportunity to basically do the job before you get the job. You know, having to go in and almost renegotiate or push back on salary because I was being paid less than other people in my team whilst being a top performer. And all of these things I thought this is my lived experience but what is happening through this lived experience? Towards the latter part of my career at the airport I was able to jump into an employee resource group and eventually lead it for a few years. And it was one of the most powerfully eye-opening experiences I've ever had just in terms of how employee resource groups are linking to the broader business. So how they deal with obviously your HR and your people functions but also other departments and the senior leaders as well as the fact that employee resource groups are the voice of the community you serve. So it's really important you're able to take those experiences, take those questions, take those queries, take those ideas and suggestions and platform them so they're able to be put in front of you know individuals who are making decisions who often are very disconnected from those who are always heard and seen. And just through that experience that kind of coincided with what happened around the pandemic some of the things that we saw with the you know brutal murder of George Floyd it just opened up an avenue and an opportunity for the fact that we have to do more and we don't have to wait for something to happen to do more. We need to be thinking about always being able to do more dial up efforts where they're required but also center people on their different lived experiences. You know to give you some examples obviously George Floyd impacted on everybody you know what that impact felt like might be different depending on what people look like or their proximity to you know the the the agenda around race and racism but it impacted on every everybody. I did a session with our CEO about what it meant for the business and what it meant for people and so many people from different backgrounds reached out about it because you know no matter what lens you were looking at it through it was heinous and it was very hard to kind of internalize. So that was you know one example. A second example was around the pandemic if you think about airports and often a lot of larger organizations, frontline teams are often those that are most at risk and danger in terms of how they interact with the public and they're they're very much frontline and interacting with different people from different parts of the world. A lot of the frontline employees were from marginalized communities. So where you're seeing those that are you know being ill because of the virus or being impacted on it, it was again quite disproportional in terms of the demographics of those impacted holistically from an organizational perspective. So it was really having conversations around it's not just about acknowledging something. What are we creating to support those individuals and support everybody going through this and then you know because of the impact of the pandemic on aviation I left and I decided to set up my own business and I really centered and focused around driving that agenda forward you know delivering DEI training to some amazing organizations and really partnering with them to understand they can really make priority but every time what kept coming up Essie was we've got the policies we've got the strategy we've got the vision the mission we've got the the plan how are we communicating was the issue. And just to say you know a lot of organizations do have internal and external comms teams which do fantastic work but they're not necessarily best sets in terms of skills to deliver on some of these things.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Yeah I you're right I think I think these organizations and businesses assume that that no matter what department that they know everything there is to know within that subject so the comms department knows everything they know about inclusive communication and being kind of culturally appropriate. But people have the experiences that they have not everybody can know everything.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Yeah absolutely and you know it's important to remind ourselves of that and that's why I never class myself as an expert you know I've got a lot of knowledge I've got a lot of experience I've picked up through lived experience through working with amazing clients and customers through having an amazing network that share resources and useful tips I've I've got access to those things. It doesn't make me a certified expert because the landscape is always always always changing. Yeah and you know for me it's just a constant reminder that we need to communicate better. You know, fast forward from when I first set up my business and then I went out and worked with lots of organizations in the DEI space to to more recently where the conversations have really centered around communication. You know I do a lot of work with colleges and you know working with the schools and understanding what young people are thinking about you know what it means to get into the education or correction into the employment space you know having come from education whether that's from a college or university or via apprenticeship. And it's just again the lack of communication that's responsible and inclusive is very much showing up there. I did a post um not too long ago about you know these in the workplace that this did a a video from a really great comedian that was kind of emphasizing a point and the amount of interaction I got this this post got over I think 30 million impressions and thousands of comments and interactions and what for me was so interesting was first of all it's a very relevant conversation. And secondly just the expectations around how people are showing up. So you had some people saying well Gen Zs need to pull their bootstraps up and put their devices down and come to work and hold a conversation and be present and then you I'd have other people saying well surely we should allow people to show up how they're meant to show up and be authentic and create space and create room for them and it was just a really interesting conversation but again what came up was the responsible inclusive communication part you know everybody everybody at some point is going to be impacted by age we're gonna have you know five generations if we haven't already got them within the workplace. Are we ensuring we're responsibly inclusively communicating amongst each other probably not because as you can see there's a high attrition rate for young people going into work and then leaving you know and there's a disconnect between the priorities that they have and focus around sustainability and inclusion and maybe what the people that are currently in organisations are communicating as their priorities because again it's an area of discomfort so we're not really leaning into it. So I think it's such a really important space when we come back to communication and when we talk about what it needs to look like and how it needs to feel and for me that's why starting from where I started in Birmingham to where I am now communication has been the main driver to really link all those things together. You know you can't roll out a policy a process you can't build something you can't create an experience unless you are communicating it in a responsible and inclusive way.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

I gre completely agree we came on quite a journey through your your lived experience and so I'm taking us back to the beginning where you were talking about kind of all the different experiences that you've had from um kind of people leaving you out of rooms due to the fact your name is in quotes difficult. So I had similar but different experiences to you. So I have a Rastafarian dad and a white mum and my name obviously being Essie I grew up in North Scotland and hated it because everybody else was called Leanne and Suzanne and also I was the only mixed race person and I was the only disabled person. So all I wanted to do was fit in. And I felt that rather than fitting in I stood out like a sore thumb. I was very popular but I think that's more because I was different and I was hard to forget really and also you know I was a nice person as well. But you know I think that that kind of for me and I'm drawing it back to you but for me that kind of shaped the assumptions I want the assumptions I made about myself and what I wanted for myself in the future at the time. So my future being when I was 10 rather than eight and then when I was 15 rather than 10 that kind of future but the assumptions about what other people would assume about me because of those things that I would assume about myself as well. But I'm thinking from your experience what you shared did it ever make you resent those spaces and those people that were

Turning resentment into access and purpose

SPEAKER_01 34:37

leaving you out?

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Oh yeah absolutely if I'm being really 100% honest and transparent which I think is very important you know it was it was a case of the fact that you're not including me and you're not even trying because of something like her name you know there's all kinds of things linked to self-worth linked to some of them am I not a good person am I not easy to kind of get on with why don't people want to bring me in and it was almost like a resentment well I should be able to be able to be invited in I should be able to access these spaces I should be able to connect with people and then it became a thing of well where I'm not getting into spaces I might just start creating my own spaces might and I I just start creating my own network and creating my own avenues in and building relationships with people who have access to those spaces so if I'm not there myself a representative for me and what I think and my perspectives is in that room. I think it really it encourages you to kind of think about things in a way of from an accessibility perspective because access isn't always about physical access to something being able to get into it and reach it and and then you know view it and and engage with it. And I think for me allowed me to kind of really think about the fact like well and Zinga realistically you know every single space you won't get access to A because you're not invited because of who you are B because you're not at the right level of seniority C because it's not your industry or sector or D because people don't know of you. So I can really do what I can with all of those instances to make sure that if it's not me, I know somebody who's in there who might have a similar perspective or I know somebody who's in those spaces that can communicate my own. But yeah I think when you set up your business and I'm sure you'll know as well Essie you kind of start to bring together your own network and your own pool of really resourceful people. So whereas you might not be invited into those rooms initially you are then brought in and then the conversation is I'm happy to be bought in but from a sustainable perspective you're not just gonna bring me in one minute and then shoe me at the next tokenism yeah yeah you know I need to be here all the time and there needs to be a presence here all the time. Yeah and then again that's the responsible inclusive communication piece because it's very easy to kind of jump in and be like hi I'm here you know I can help you and then and be happy to be gone the next day it's more a case of well I'm happy to be in here but whatever I'm sharing with you is building a pipeline or a way of ensuring that this perspective or these perspectives are always being factored into these rooms. But absolutely a lot of resentment I think partly because of you know how I was made to feel but also how I felt about myself I'm a much older woman now. I I I accept myself fully and wholly I embrace who I am I I love the fact that I am very multifaceted but also I'm very authentic. I've tried to code shift and you know hold switch even and you know shift it up and try and conform and and fit in and I realized I wasn't I wasn't created to fit in. I was created to my path and be truthful in that and one thing about me in terms of responsible inclusive communication it's respectful. Even if it might be a challenging conversation someone who is an empath I care about people and that's everybody but at the same time there often needs to be a priority for those who are most suffering who are not being heard who are not being seen and that's I guess where my alliance and my allegiance lies with so it's about really kind of you know amplifying those voices but yeah very resentful initially now in absolute gratitude I I get to do something that I I am passionate about and that I care about and I'm making a difference and I'm allowing for other people to make a difference as well.

Lived experience without tokenism

SPEAKER_01 38:08

I think kind of building on that resentful resentment I mean because I have a lot of resentment about kind of things in my life and assumptions that people make about me and things that I can't access in more than a physically disability way due to my experiences as a disabled person and my background I think that builds who I am as a person. So one thing that I always say is I'm a disabled person for many reasons. There's political reasons to that but also because I think it it kind of builds the experiences that I have. I wouldn't have the experiences that I have if I wasn't a disabled person. I hopefully I wouldn't be running a disability inclusion consultancy unless I had that lived experience of disability. And yeah I say hopefully because I would have different experiences so I might think about it differently if I wasn't disabled. But you know I can be proud of the experiences I have therefore if other people want to feel certain things about me then they can. But I know who I am as a person. But I completely agree with you about kind of being in the room and being present in that room in the right way. So so not in a tokenistic way like let's wheel the wheelchair user in and then you know mind the pun. What is this bringing and how can she help us sustain this? And I don't mind I mean it's not very good business strategy but I don't mind if people take on my ideas as their own um I think well if people are taking on their ideas and they're seeping them in and they think they came up with it themselves, is that not just a a nod to me that I came up with a really good process and a really good way of people doing things.

The real win: watching people put it into practice

SPEAKER_00 39:40

I love what you're love where this is because it really is you know you create amazing stuff and you might share some powerful insights not just fit to sit with essay. The intention is to share it with people and if they're using it and they're quoting it like whenever I hear anyone mention the three R's my heart flutters. Yeah. It's not just oh they're using a framework that we've created it's like they're doing something that's going to advance and change how they communicate and make it more responsible and inclusive they are implementing and driving change. Like that for me is the win. That for me is the bit that I kind of cling on to and hold on to but you know as someone who who gets out there and goes out there a lot you know I I'm on LinkedIn a lot I'm connecting with you know colleagues in the space I'm learning about what's happening I recently went to a DNI um conference um last week actually and just some things that really reminded me of the importance of this work. So one highlight was you know to do this work but not from a wounded place. You know you want to make sure you've worked on those wounds to heal yourself. So obviously we have lived experience but it can't be you know the exclusion or the racism that I encountered that's driving the conversation. It's got to be the healed version of myself that's processed and and and not necessarily dealt with it because it doesn't just go away but have a different association with that. So then I'm able to be of service to those who need to try to learn from me. You know another great one that really sorry I said to you just jumped jumped out at me was the absence of bad behavior does not equate to good behaviour and inclusion. Yeah and I just think wrong's don't make it right kind of thing. Like just because you're not doing something that's deemed as discriminatory doesn't mean you're an inclusive leader. Yeah because inclusive taking action and doing something that drives that whole inclusive culture. And I just thought there's so many people that are like well I'm not a racist or I'm not someone who's sexist or I'm not homophobic or I don't get involved yeah you don't get involved like and it doesn't mean you're doing good stuff.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

Yeah yeah you're just not doing anything. Yeah I say that all the time because back in the day so I set up celebrating disability in 2017 that people would say we don't discriminate and I'm like whoopty do for you. You don't discriminate you're sticking to the law that excellent so what are you gonna do next? Oh do we have to do anything else?

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Yes you do like not discriminating Essie is the bear bear it's just that's great but what else are we doing? And then it's allowing it to be easy and to be clear and to be where it can be enjoyable because sometimes this work isn't it so uncomfortable it's it's it's not enjoyable. But if you can try and find a way of making it enjoyable or making it relatable then it definitely definitely you know helps move the agenda forward. I'm a massive storyteller. There's been so many instances and experiences that I've had and sometimes when I tell them people are in absolute shock and horror and you know they are quite comical in some instances but I think wow this is my life but I feel I feel blessed to be able to take what might have been a negative story not necessarily make it a comedy sketch like it some of it isn't really that funny but to make it relatable to add humor to it but to get people to really think about therefore you know what the implications are of not having that inclusive culture in place for individuals who are again constantly being left out and excluded.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

I agree with you as well and when you turn something as you say not every story can be a comedy sketch and but when you turn something that for you is not triggering enough to to be really distracting but something that's meaningful and tangible into something else I think the message does come across what you said and also the message comes across that this is so ridiculous. This is so because the way we're telling the story shows kind of the ridiculousness of that went on in that situation. And then it helps people think well of course that's a stupid way of doing things because how we've been able to kind of flip that on its head. I agree with what you were saying as well about kind of using that almost like that trauma that we've been through and turning into something that's helpful for others. So I suppose the way that I articulate that is lived experience coupled with professional solution based approaches. So quite often people come to celebrating disability and they ask for motivational inspirational talks. And I say no way, no how no and obviously in a very polite Way, but you know, uh trying to articulate and sometimes they get it, and sometimes they're like, No, we're going to have our inspirational talk from somebody else, because that's what they want. But trying to get across the lived experience alone is not going to help you fix anything. So I can tell you all about my barriers and what's difficult for me, but that's only going to help you in the moment when you hire me. But when you go to hire somebody else, you have to start all over again. So it's more helpful if if we come from it from kind of a solution-based approach and use those lived experiences to make things relatable and tangible.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Yeah, absolutely agree. And you know, the relatable piece is often so you know overlooked and not factored into the importance of being able to find commonality, but commonality doesn't necessarily need to be what we look like or what our backgrounds are, it can be things we've experienced.

Where to start: the maturity assessment

SPEAKER_01 44:52

We're coming into the last furlong of our um episode today. So I'd like to kind of move the conversation to kind of practical actions that you would give businesses and leaders. I mean, I will say as well, if other practical actions, because I think there's been so much um useful information that you've shared throughout this episode so far. But if if leaders are listening to this thinking, oh my god, there's so much in here, my brain's fogged, where do I start? You know, how would you help them to kind of just start on that journey?

SPEAKER_00 45:24

A really great question. And I think really important to acknowledge that, you know, people, leaders have so much going on, as much as it's, you know, a priority, it's about making it accessible and easy for people to find. So at AVI Tabi, we always start off with a temperature gauge, and that's in the way of maturity assessment. We want to understand where you are at in terms of responsible, inclusive communication. Because what is also the case is you've got organizations doing some great things, and it's worth understanding and highlighting those things as opposed to making the assumption that everyone's got loads of work to do and they all need help and support. So doing a maturity assessment really helps to kind of tease out where you are. And this is something that definitely can speak volumes in terms of where the opportunities are in your organization, so where you might have policies, processes, but actually the communication is letting you down. And then it's based on that assessment, a report is generated by the team. We'll go through it and we'll understand where your areas of focus are and what recommendations we can give you in terms of where to go and what to do next. And this is to support you in terms of where you are on your journey. You know, it's not about just collecting information and keeping it, it's about collecting it, obviously, sharing it with you, but also understanding how it can support you in terms of strategic thinking, but also planning going forward. So that is the first step. Um, if you are interested in finding out a little bit more about what we do, follow me on LinkedIn. I am the only En Zingor Guller in the entire world. There is nobody else with my name. So if you found someone with my name, they are me, unless it's me.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

I am jealous because apparently there's two or three SE Hardis, which I don't like them. I'm gonna find them and put them away.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

But yeah. Well, at the moment, I am the only En Zingor, but I claim it and I embrace it. But yeah, follow follow me on LinkedIn. I'm always sharing stuff around responsible and inclusive communication. Um, we've also got some recordings in terms of um, you know, webinars and workshops that we've done. So if you want a little bit of a flavor without, you know, fully immersing yourself into some of our services, there's an opportunity and an avenue there. I think the first realistic step is to connect and have a conversation and then

Nzinga's recommendations: podcasts, community and faith

SPEAKER_00 47:35

we go from there.

SPEAKER_01 47:36

Brilliant. So we will be putting all of your information and your details in the show notes so people can contact you through your website, through LinkedIn, um, and any other channels that you have as well. So something I always ask guests is if they have any recommendations of influencers that they would give to other people. So these could be books, they could be people, they could be just, I don't know, media like music and things like that. Do you have anyone that you would recommend or anything that you would recommend people do as a result of listening or watching this episode?

SPEAKER_00 48:12

There are a few things. So I think you know, definitely get out there and immerse yourself in what's happening in the inclusion space. Not just in terms of following um somebody, a practitioner who you like, but also being aware of the political landscape as well. It's definitely something I would promote and push. In terms of me, I like to draw my inspiration from other spaces. You know, it could be I I listen to a lot of well-being podcasts, and in particular, the one that kind of comes to mind for me is I really enjoy Mel Robbins podcasts. I like things that can give me top tips and things I can go away and implement and see if there's any change around what I've implemented and what comes back to me. So I love that. Um, I think you know, really important to immerse yourself around the right community, whether that's friends, family, you know, colleagues. And also, like I'm a religious person, a newly more religious person. So I've always been connected to God and spirituality. More recently, I've kind of leaned more into that. And I think, you know, one thing I will probably leave with that, because I think that's probably the biggest error for me. It's all amazing and great being a leader. It's equally as important to be a leaner. That's leaning into your faith, leaning into your community, leaning into resources and things that can support you on your inclusion journey.

What she would tell her younger self

SPEAKER_01 49:25

That's such an important message, actually. And one that that I think that that we kind of forget about that actually, you know, and actually part probably puts quite a lot of pressure on us that we think as leaders we have to know all the answers, but it's about leaning into where the answers also sit. So we're always growing and we're always learning to pass it off. Thank you so much. Um, so something else I've started to asking guests is if you were looking at Nenzinger when you started, maybe back in your first role in aviation, what would you tell yourself that you know now that you didn't know then?

SPEAKER_00 50:01

Oh, how long we got essay? I will call back 10 minutes. Um I won't take that long. Um, a couple of things. The first thing is trust the process. We so often want to get to the finishing line before we even know what that race sprint marathon looks like. So trust the process. Trust that if you are showing up authentically, what will be for you will never pass you. The second thing is accept who you are. Let's not try and change your pastel and fit in and adopt new you know traits and personality shifts to kind of appease people because the only person you are letting down is yourself, but also actually, it's not the only person, it's everybody else who you're robbing the opportunity of connecting with more authentic self as. So that's the second thing. And the third thing was to embrace discomfort, not in the way that it becomes this whole journey of struggle and pain. Like, no, I I'm really not here for that. But enjoy leaning into spaces that are uncomfortable that will support your growth. And I've been quite good at it, but I think there's also been opportunities that I haven't lent into and that have therefore meant I've missed things that personally I think I would have been really, really great off if I had the confidence. So lean in, you might not know all the answers straight away, but you will figure them out because you know everything is out there, whether it's within you or within your community. So that's probably what I would say to young Enzinger, and just to yeah, make sure you stay hydrated and

Final thoughts and how to connect with Nzinga

SPEAKER_00 51:29

get enough rest. I like that. I like that.

SPEAKER_01 51:30

I need to take that last lesson definitely. Um, thank you so much. Is there anything else that you would like to share?

SPEAKER_00 51:37

No, or say no, but just you know, responsible, inclusive communication, and I keep reiterating this, isn't just for those who we feel might come from marginalized communities or need to have their voices seen and heard. It's for everybody. We all benefit from it. So, you know, I'd encourage every single person, however you choose to move forward, to really think about how you're communicating, you know, and really align your intentions with your impact. Because as we move towards a world where there's more technology and there's less human interaction, really need to make sure that the connections we're making when they are human-centered are responsible and inclusive. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

And it's so, you know, I think it would help it helps every single relationship in every conversation, whether it is with a sibling, a family member, a friend, or whoever, um, it can really kind of just help everybody to feel equal in that conversation. So yeah, brilliant. Thank you so much for joining me today. Well, thank you for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure. You're welcome, absolutely. Thank you so much, everyone, for tuning in again and watching and listening to another episode. As all podcasters say, don't forget to like and subscribe and share. And I really look forward to seeing you in the next episode. And also, if you would like to be on the equality edit and you would like to share your story about why equality is so important to you, or you think somebody else would find this podcast helpful, please do share this and please get in touch with us either in the comments or email us at the Celebrating Disability website email address. But until next time, have a great afternoon or evening or morning. All right. Bye.