Creativity Without a Deliverable Enabling Play, Balance & Trust at Work

In this episode of Edge of Excellence, Bryon Beilman and Jessica DeForge sit down with iuvo CIO Jesse McCain to explore a leadership idea that does not get enough attention: creativity without a deliverable.

In a work culture often driven by constant output, metrics, and availability, Jesse offers a more human-centered perspective on what helps teams think, create, and perform sustainably. The conversation explores why play matters at work, how unstructured time supports innovation, and why trust and flexibility are not the opposite of accountability.

Jesse shares thoughtful examples from his own leadership experience, including how exploration, psychological safety, work-life integration, and “loosening the reins” can help people do their best work without burning out.

This episode is for leaders, managers, and professionals who want to build healthier, more creative, and higher-performing teams without measuring every moment by a deliverable.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

This is the Edge of Excellence, empowering people to shape the future. Let's inspire, innovate, and explore together. Welcome to Edge of Excellence, the podcast where we explore how leadership, culture, and technology empower people and organizations to grow and thrive. I'm Jesta Forge, and today we're talking about something that doesn't get enough attention in the workplace: creativity without a deliverable. In a world where everything is measured, tracked, and optimized, we're asking a different question. What happens when we create space for play, balance, and trust?

SPEAKER_02 0:39

And I'm Brian Beilman, and joining us today is someone who brings a thoughtful, human-centered perspective to leadership and technology. Jesse McCain is the CIO at Iuvo, one of our longest members here. And with over two decades of experience in IT consulting, he guides both our clients and our internal teams on how to leverage technology efficiently, thoughtfully, and responsibly. What really sets Jesse apart is how he thinks about leadership beyond technology. He believes that strong outcomes come from trust, flexibility, and creating space for people to think, explore, and be creative, even when there is an immediate deliverable attached. Jesse is here today to talk about how leaders can enable creativity through play, rethink work-life balance, and balance accountability with flexibility in a way that empowers people to do their best work. Jesse, welcome to the edge of excellence. Great to be here. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Yes, Jesse, I'm so excited to have you on. And I want to open up the conversation asking your opinion on where do you think the pressure for constant output comes from in today's modern work culture?

SPEAKER_04 1:52

Yeah, that's that's a great question. Um one thing I actually learned about this pretty recently is that it's a very American thing. Um my brother moved to Portugal recently, and uh I visited him, and the the vibe over there, and I think in Europe in general, um, is is pretty different than than kind of the American uh way of of looking at this. Um and so I think that that combined with the recent 24-7 availability um has kind of amped that up a lot. Uh, you know, 50 years ago, you had to be in the office to do a lot of your work. And so a combination of those two things I think has has created a lot of yeah, no, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

I've heard that um I have yet to travel to Europe. I want to so badly, but I've heard about these like everybody takes an hour for lunch and they leave the office. Like you do not stay and eat lunch at your place of work, yeah. Um, and everything just kind of shuts down. So you have this like genuine break, which I think is so cool.

SPEAKER_04 2:51

Sort of like their their vacation time, too, that everyone just takes like two, I forgot what it is, two or three weeks off, or and the whole you know, country shuts down, basically.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

So yeah. And then you said that take siestas.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Well wow. I wish I could take siestas. I'm not a big napper, but it sounds like it'd be very recharging during a day.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

It's never too early to start.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

I'll put that on my goals for 2026. More siestas. So, Jesse, why do you think creativity is often undervalued and maybe even misunderstood at work?

SPEAKER_04 3:24

Yeah, so I I think a lot of workplaces are really focused on the immediate need. They're worried about firefighting and you know, the the thing that's due tomorrow, um, and not taking that long-term uh long view approach um where and so people are incentivized to produce for tomorrow and not think about, well, if we lay the groundwork for this today, it'll actually pay greater rewards uh in the future. So it's it's a lot of short-term thinking.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Yeah, no, I think short-term thinking is the right word there. As a former teacher, and I was an early ed teacher, um, play was such a big part of my work and was so highly valued in the way that we helped, you know, young learners, you know, absorb information and knowledge and express themselves. And it's so interesting how as the years progress, you know, within education and then obviously in the workforce, we just lose sight of that completely. Um, and it's really sad. So I'm curious, what do you think play actually means in a professional environment?

SPEAKER_04 4:27

Yeah, I mean, in a word, I think it's exploration. Um, you know, I think that we, you know, similar to what you were just saying about teaching, that we think about play as a childish thing, which I don't think is right. Um, I think uh it it it's it's uh a very important part of you know everyday life and being creative. Um and I think it's it's I think the word exploration uh feeds into it a little bit better and has a better concept to it, but it's the same idea. And so giving folks time to step away from day-to-day pressures really lets them uh explore, you know, uh more about their industry and what got them into their job and the you know, it's sort of like what you were saying, the the fun parts of uh what you know why why they come to work every day.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

And you mentioned exploration, so it makes me think a little bit about um I guess about empowerment, right? And so uh can you talk a little bit maybe about in order for somebody to explore and and and do this thing with you, I do you feel like uh there's an element that as leading people that you they they could feel that's okay to do that, right?

SPEAKER_04 5:41

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's uh I mean I think play and you know, empowerment enables play, um, and vice versa. You know, uh, you know, I I know that uh our ability to have freedom of our time uh is so important for me and such a large part of why I work here and why I've worked here for so long, um, is having that freedom to, you know, take a long lunch and go out for a bike ride in the middle of the day. You know, that's that's taking care of myself in a way that then you know makes me a better employee too, because I come back recharged, I come back healthier, um, a little more focused. Um so I think it's it's super important. Um, but empower, you know, I think in terms of empowerment though, um, you know, that's as as leaders, we have to empower uh the people that we're leading to do that, you know, to have the space to do that.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Yeah, I think it's one thing that I was really lacking as an educator that I really appreciate about working here at a UVO because it's not that it's something that would be a given anywhere else in corporate America. I think it's very unique to the culture that you all have built here. And one of the things that has helped me embrace this mindset more because it's difficult to embrace. It's like, wait, is this real? You really want me to take time off and like get outside?

SPEAKER_04 7:07

It took me a couple few years to understand that in here.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Which is sad, but it is hard to when you arrive somewhere that truly wants this for you as an employee, it's hard to like make that part of your everyday and to accept it. Um it's wonderful once you do, but it's hard to transition into that. And I think one of the things that helped me do that was the example set top down. Because when I see fresh powder and Jesse's taking some time, you know, like that makes me feel like it truly is okay. Because when it's said but then not demonstrated, it's a lot harder, you know, to do it. And so I think that that's a huge help. And even um, I report to Matt at the company and he found out one day I mentioned something about working lunch. And he's like, What do you mean working lunch? And I'm like, Well, a lot of times I just like eat at my desk. He's like, No, we gotta stop that. And he put time on my calendar, a block every day for lunch. He's like, every time you do that, I want it to be a reminder to you. Like, I want you to like leave your desk, go take a break. And that's huge when it comes from the top. And I think that's what you're talking about, Brian. It's like the responsibility that that puts on leadership if you truly want that to be part of your culture. Um, and so I I find that very interesting. And those are some ways that I find that Yuvo does that really well as an employee here. And so I'm curious, Jesse, how do you think unstructured time contributes to innovation and better problem solving? You touched on this a little bit, but I'd like to deep dive into that a bit.

SPEAKER_04 8:39

Yeah, so I think when you're in leadership in a small company, um, you know, we often talk about uh making time to work on the business instead of in the business. Um, but I think this applies across all members uh of the company as well. Everyone needs some time to get out of the trees to see the forest. Um, you know, I think one good example of this is entrepreneurship. If uh your boss came to you and said, you know, come up with the next big thing by Tuesday, that's not how you come up with great ideas. It's not on a deadline, it's not, you know, you know, forced into a box with metrics and stuff. That's not how you come up with great ideas. And so that unstructured time um, you know, is is required to have kind of the out-of-the-box, big picture, high-level thinking.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Yeah, I recently got back from a two-week vacation that happened to be out of the country, and I'm guilty of checking my email when I'm away and I'm supposed to be on vacation, and I was blocked because I was out of the country. And I had said to Matt, I'm like, you know, I'm so glad I was blocked because I didn't realize like how good it was for me to truly unplug. I came back, I've been like the most productive I've been in the last like two weeks coming back than I was for like a month before that. I'm just like so re-energized. I'm seeing things so much clearer. Um, and when I mentioned that to Matt, he's like, Yeah, that's why we have a mandatory number of days. Like you have to take at least this many days off rather than the reverse for some companies.

SPEAKER_04 10:12

Yeah, and I I actually find that um while I I take advantage of like taking a here the day here and a day there, you know, like we're talking about, you know, when it's when when there's a good snowstorm and some good skiing, um, you know, to really like disconnect though, like I need at least a week off because you have to, the thing that I find about that is that you have to prepare for that. You can't when you have more than a week off, you can't uh just do all the work you know that you can ahead of time and then catch up when you get back. Because now you're doing the same amount of work, it's just compressed into less time. And so when you take a week or more off, you have to prepare for that, you have to offload things, you have to, you know, shift things around to make that happen. Um and then you can fully disconnect. And another thing that I found about that too, I a while back, uh, I took three weeks off to travel through uh all the uh West Coast National Parks with uh with my family, which was amazing. And we were, you know, disconnected like from technology for the most part. You know, it was a longer period, so like I had to be planful about it. And so not only does that force that disconnection, but you know, coming back, I found that you know, some of the things that I'd handed off to people, I didn't need to take back. Or, you know, like it kind of a reset in work as well as as kind of mentally. So it's huge rewards from you know, from taking that time for yourself. And I like I was uh volunteering this weekend with someone who was like, Oh yeah, I've got all this PTO and I, you know, I'm like, I'm I I literally took yesterday off to go volunteer. Um, and I was convincing her to come join us, and uh she's like, Yeah, I've got this PTO. I I guess I could use it for that. She's like, it's all built up. I'm like, you're supposed to be using that.

SPEAKER_02 12:10

They don't give it to you for nothing, you know. So spreading it to other companies. Well, you know, it makes me think too, a couple things you said there is uh we have so we have unlimited PTO. And I and and I've read just recently there was this article that people say, well, that's a bad thing because basically because people don't use as much vacation and so forth. And so, you know, here we've said you have to, yeah, it's unlimited, but you have to take at least this much. We're gonna we're going to make sure you use your vacation because it's it is uh it's not it's it's for the it's for the employees' sake. And then the other thing you thought made me think of, Jesse, is when you went off on and uh both of you when you've taken a vacation, uh if something's gonna break while you're gone, then that's a problem with the business, right? So it helps the business be more resilient. So if the leader's out there listening and saying, hey, I don't, I don't, you know, I can't give my people time off because then the business won't run, then that's a problem with the business. So by going off and saying, What if what if Jess, Jess or Jesse both take five weeks off? And what are we gonna do? Right. Uh then everyone should be LA to take to take time off without having to be called on their vacation or or even expected to catch up when they got back. 100%.

SPEAKER_04 13:21

Yeah, we I mean we we've talked about this the entire time that I've been here that um you know, in IT specifically, sometimes you'll find people who hold data closely and don't want to share because they think it's job security. Um, and it really isn't. Um, it makes a business fragile, frankly. Um because if I'm out and I'm the only person who can reset your password, Brian, like now you're calling me while I'm in Hawaii, you know, which is six hours different. And, you know, I I can't not respond to that. So I can't take that time away because the CEO needs his password reset or he can't do any work. You know, that's that's that you know untenable. And so, you know, it getting into the weeds a little bit, but like it's why we do a lot of documentation, it's why we do a lot of cross-training, it's um, you know, making myself redundant in a sense. Like people are scared of doing that, but it means that I can take time off, you know, like that's the more important thing. And going back to what I said earlier, it also means that I can step up into other things. If I hand off this task, you know, so that either I can do it or Matt can do it. Now I can take time off, and Matt can handle it for me. Um, and and and and maybe, you know, Matt just keeps handling it for me, and I, you know, kind of level up onto the next thing.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Well, and just and this is probably why, Jesse, that you started as a consultant and you worked your way up to CIO.

unknown 14:54

Right?

SPEAKER_02 14:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think the other piece to that is that the leadership needs to make sure that people feel safe enough to do that. Because there may be a component to feeling like you need to make yourself indispensable and hoard information that also signals to me that maybe there's, you know, a disconnect from leadership to make that employee feel like that doesn't need to happen, that they are safe, even if they're shared knowledge and that they can take that time off and see the benefits in that instead. Um, what do you think happens to teams when every action has to justify itself with some sort of measurable outcome?

SPEAKER_04 15:34

Um, I I think if you're expected to produce something every minute of the day, then you're a robot, not a human. You know, uh that's the that's gonna lead to burnout, uh, it's gonna reduce productivity in the long run. It's you know, creates worse customer experiences, um, high turnover. You know, if I call a bit business and uh the customer service rep is grumpy because they've been, you know, working 60 hour weeks and haven't had a day off and who knows how long, like that has a downstream effect that um uh you know I you know I experience you know as a customer. And now I'm I'm not happy with this this company. Um and and the inverse of that is that when you know we've been talking about all the all the things that we do at Iuvo to to improve our own people's experience, because it has a downstream effect for our clients, you know, yeah, we our our people are happy and they're happier giving that customer service experience to our customers.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

No, absolutely. It makes me think um, Brian, we recently chatted with Adam Jones, who is the creator of Iuvo Guardian, um, which is a Microsoft 365 solution. And when we were chatting with him about how Ayuvo Garden came to be, it's making me directly connect to what you're talking about, Jesse. If we think about play in the workplace as exploration. Um, and Adam talked about having the freedom and feeling empowered to explore, seeing a problem with clients that they were experiencing and thinking, I bet you we could come up with a solution for this. And then having this flexibility and empowerment to explore what he thought could be a solution, but also knowing that the time it took, it took a lot of time for him to be working on this. He's still continuing to work on it, improve it. I think him not having the pressure of having to show that there was some sort of dollar correlation to the work that he was doing and the trust that was placed in him by the leadership team here allowed him to have that. And now we have this amazing solution, not only for our clients, but for you know, prospective clients as well. That wouldn't have happened without that, you know, ability to explore and to not feel like he was tied to this deliverable. Um, and I think that that's like a perfect example of how that can benefit, you know, the business as well. So, how do you think leaders and Brian, you can, you know, chip in here as well. How can leaders intentionally create space for creativity and exploration? How did we allow Adam to do what he did? What did you do?

SPEAKER_04 18:18

Let him do that. Let him create that awesome product. Do you want to answer that, Brian?

SPEAKER_02 18:25

No, go ahead. Go ahead, Jesse.

SPEAKER_04 18:26

Okay. Um, so I think that people, uh, leaders need to lead by example. You know, uh, you know, like you were saying, we don't ask folks to produce something every minute of the day. Um, but I think just as importantly, we have to share that when we're doing it too, um, so that you know, Adam or whoever it is feels the safety of like, oh, I see that you know, Jesse's working on this thing that's not immediately related to, you know, billing a client or whatever, you know, exploring, you know, ideas for the future. Like, I feel like I can do that. And, you know, uh Adam's manager is is um, you know, we have a um uh professional development time policy that defines professional development really loosely, um, and and that's intentional um because we uh work on billable hours a lot of times, we have to track that. Um, but we don't want that to then be perceived as, well, you have to be productive for all of your time. We just want to know where you're spending your time. Um, it doesn't mean that every single hour of that time has to be billable. And so we're very intentional about saying, okay, you have this block of professional development time or development time for this product or whatever to use over the course of the week or the month or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

What comes to my mind is is it is tough in a in a consulting business where you know we we we sell our time in general, but I think that people have time over time, not just Adam, is they say they look at a problem. We hire we hire really great people. And so what you so why would why would you want to take these really great people and then micromanage them and say, you need to do this? You say, like, here's the problem, or here's a here's something. And I don't even see the need to say the problem. They'll see the problem, they'll say, listen, this is happening across more than just this instance. Let's find a let's find a solution for it. And they they go off and do it. And then this solution for this one thing scales across the entire organization or entire client base. We didn't say if we were to say, listen, just focus on your time and and be busy, be busy. Busy is not great, but but but being providing great solutions is so that's it's a it's a combination of things of where we're uh you hire great people and you let them do the amazing things. And you and you can't like I think Jesse, you said at the very beginning, somebody says, I want you to be creative, like you'd say, no, just let them recognize that. No they have your you have their back and they will find these great solutions.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Yeah, no, definitely. And you know, Jesse, this this idea of wanting to explore. I think in order to explore, there needs to be some level of curiosity. And so what role do you think curiosity plays in technical and non-technical roles?

SPEAKER_04 21:23

Yeah, it's uh you know, I think I think that that's one of those things that we actually see as a key piece to successful employees here is curiosity. If, you know, I I I don't remember the number, but like some high percentage of of folks within IUVO are musicians, which I suspect is not common for an you know, kind of an IT sort of organization or or like a technology focused organization. Um, but there's this level of creativity among the people here um that. Is is super important to how we deliver our business, uh, you know, and our services. Um, it's it's really kind of key uh to to a lot of what we do. And it's and not not even from a problem solving point of view, but from an approach point of view of like if you're doing this rote, it's not gonna work. I can give you a script to help you troubleshoot, you know, why your computer's rebooting or something like that. That's with without any creativity to that, you're not gonna be like, oh wait, but last week you told me you were on vacation, you know, maybe you got some sand in it, or you know, like I like it, it's there's if you're following the script, you're never gonna make that connection, sort of. You're you gotta think outside the box. So um I think I think that makes, you know, the the curiosity piece of it, um, you know, and uh and the creativity, you know, is is one and the same, and and take someone who maybe knows the technology really well and can take direction from a manager saying, I want you to build this, and they build exactly what was asked for.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Right.

SPEAKER_04 23:13

They don't build the next big thing though.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

No, absolutely. It makes me think of, you know, in education, we would talk about the science of teaching and the art of teaching. And it's difficult to get to the art of teaching without a foundational level of knowledge, which is that science piece. And so, you know, Brian, when you're talking about the experience density that we bring to the table at Ayuvo, I think that is such an important piece to like why the experts we have are able to come up with these creative solutions is they have that science piece down. And then you've created an environment where the art gets to play into it, where they get to think really outside of the box for these problems because they have such a strong foundation of you know, the basics with the science with the tech. But I think that that applies to, you know, all industries. Like obviously, yes, you need a foundational, you know, knowledge base to grow from. But then if you don't help your employees flourish with the art piece, you're really gonna miss out on some really cool things that they could be bringing to your business. And I think it's easy to squash that in people with that micromanaging that you were talking about, Brian.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

When you have um, you can have somebody who's a bunch of people who are very good at music, but when they get together and they collaborate and they they riff off each other, that's when the music, that's when the music happens, right? It's it's it's some some people are super talented and they're a one-person band and they can do all this stuff, but often it's just people who are they know their instrument, like you said, the science part of it, and then the then the collaboration and the creativity comes out and they're and they they thought they were a rock band, now they turned out they're a jazz band or whatever, you know, like they just turned out they whatever comes up comes up.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

And we've touched on this a little bit, but Jesse, how do you think play helps people think differently about problems?

SPEAKER_04 24:57

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, my wife was uh trained as a as a playmaker uh by Life is Good, uh, which which was an amazing program. And um they used play to help kids recover from trauma, which was really eye-opening for me. Um and so some of the things that I learned around that were that play actually helps you rewire your brain, helps us break out of ruts, um, it lowers cortisol levels, which are the stress hormone, um, and it increases dopamine and and some other beneficial hormones. Um just at a very like, you know, biological level, it it has, it makes like real difference. Um and so uh, you know, there's studies that show that that helps with problem solving, with making plans, with regulating emotion. Um, and so play helps us think differently and find solutions to problems that may not otherwise be right in front of us. Um and uh, you know, in the in the that it may not be the same way that we're doing you know something over and over again, we can break out of that uh way of thinking and and find a way around. You know, if if you just keep trying to drive through that, you know, brick wall, you know, you're just gonna get banged up. But if you're like, oh, well, what about taking this other way around and and finding that? It helps you find those things.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Right. And we talked a little bit about this need to feel safe in order to do this level of exploration, you know, within the workplace. So can you speak a little bit to the importance of psychological safety as a prerequisite in order to have this creative thinking that we're talking about?

SPEAKER_04 26:38

Yeah. Um, so something interesting that I learned recently um is about the comfort learning and panic zones. So like our comfort zone is kind of in the center of things. Like if you're comfortable doing something, um, you know, you're like, oh, this is this is great, you know, you're sitting on on the couch or you're doing you're doing the thing that you do every day and it's it's comfortable. Um, you know, your learning zone is when you're pushing a little bit outside of that, it's a little stressful. Um and uh, but you're learning as you're doing it. But if you get pushed too far, you get into the panic zone. Um and once you're in the panic zone, you can't go back to the learning zone. You have to go back to the comfort zone uh before you can expand into the learning zone again. Um and so uh, you know, for instance, there are people who enjoy karaoke uh and think that that's a lot of and that's fine, like that's great. That's a little bit terrifying for me. Like, I don't sing, I don't want to stand up on stage, like that combination of things like makes me nervous just thinking about it. Um and and so you know, it might be putting me up on stage might rewire my brain, but not in the right way. Um you know, um, so that that would not be a good way of doing that. But, you know, uh having the you know, being in a safe place, knowing that, you know, hey, it's okay to, you know, uh to get on a podcast and and push yourself a little bit beyond what you do every day. Um you know, having that that's a prerequisite for that because you can't you can't learn, you can't expand, you know, your mindset um in the comfort zone or in that panic zone.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Right. No, absolutely. So I've been seeing a lot on my TikTok, because I'm very hip. And uh I've been seeing a lot of you know, this kind of change in mindset and expectations when it comes to work-life balance. It seems that the traditional way of thinking of work-life balance is not working for people anymore. Um, and so why do you think, you know, the definition that we previously held for work-life balance is just not a fit for people going forward anymore?

SPEAKER_04 29:06

Yeah, so I think with like our always-on modern technology, work from home, you know, the lines of work and and personal life has have really gotten blurred. Um I think some employers exploit this, um, you know, expecting people to be available at all hours. It's uh and and it's just not sustainable, you know. Um, but I also think that employees can take advantage of this. Um you know, that's that's what we encourage here of, you know, like I said before, going out for a bike ride at lunchtime, you know, is is kind of is is in in warmer months just a great way that I use to reset, you know, doing work uh, you know, at at times that work for me so that you know, when my kids were younger, I could go see their play or whatever. Uh, you know, it's and that gives me the um gives me the energy. I can use my energy at times when it's most effective. You know, if I have to do X at this time, I may not be ready for that. Um, but I can do this other work that's gonna be easier for me then, and then use you know, time that I'm a little more, you know, energetic to do something more challenging.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Okay, that's what we do. There's no rails, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_04 30:27

Yeah, yeah. You need a little bit of guardrails, though.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Like you're doing fine. Um, Brian, do you have anything you want to add um when it comes to this like mindset of work-life balance?

SPEAKER_02 30:40

Yeah, I well, I think there's also a term that's been thrown out a little bit is work-life integration. And uh it's it is the you know, it's uh the the work-life balance used to be if I felt like you know, I need to make sure I'm balanced, so I'm not working too much. And but then we're as we're online and so forth, like Jesse said, like, I don't know how many times in in uh we we use Slack as a communication. Somebody says, you know what, I'm gonna go, I'll take my dog for a walk, like it's two o'clock or whatever. And so they're going off and doing things, and then they come back and they or you know, because we're they it boils down to you do you know what you need to get done? Yeah, and and where you if you measure results and not on measure the people's time, then you're kind of integrated. You know, you do want to be able to shut off. I I'm really proud of actually, I'm really proud of Jess because I see at the end of the day your slack is says is not do is is is is uh is quiet, so you're not hearing the slacks. I I I learned from that a little bit because I see that and I'm like, oh, it's um, but there's different different ways. I think it I think it is tailored to the way people like to work and the way that they get their most effective.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

I I like that that the way that you just said that, Brian, because I do think you know, people are obviously so unique and what work-life balance looks like for one, it can be very different from what it looks like to another. We have some people here that are morning people and they sign on super early, and that's when they're doing their best focused work, and other people are not, and I see them on later and there's no pressure that one way is better than the other. Obviously, we're held to a standard if you have a meeting and it's in the morning, like you need to be on for your meeting. But I found, you know, in transitioning to a UVO, one thing that was really cool for me is I used to get this like nighttime sleep anxiety of like, I have to be up at this time because I have to report to work at this time. And if I don't fall asleep right now, like it's gonna be a rough day tomorrow. And just having the flexibility, especially if I don't have a meeting in the morning of being like, it's okay, then I'll sleep later and I'll sign on later. I know I can get my work done and I know I'm trusted to do that, has been huge to not have that like looming over my head. I love it. Um, so Jesse, you you spoke a little bit to you know, abuse that can happen with these, you know, policies. And sometimes employees can take advantage. I think flexibility is um sometimes misunderstood. So, how do you distinguish between true flexibility and a lack of accountability? And why do you think that distinction is really important for leaders to understand?

SPEAKER_04 33:09

Yeah, and and uh and to clarify, like I think that while employees can take advantage in a negative way, going back to the previous uh question, like I I what I was actually talking about was employees can use that to their benefit as well, you know, in the ways that you were just describing. Like you you described that perfectly. But you you have to, there has to be trust between the employer and the employee so that you know we trust that you're getting your work done and there's accountability so that you're delivering what you said you would deliver when you deliver it, you know, you're showing up to the meetings when you know you you said you would, you're delivering the thing that you said you delivered, you know, at the right time. Um and you know, around that you can also work, you know, work into your own schedule that hey, you didn't sleep well last night, uh you log in at 10 instead of nine or eight or whatever. Like, okay, fine. As long as you don't have a meeting at nine, that's that's not a problem. So um, but going back to your question though, you know, I think I I the distinguishing true flexibility and lack of accountability, I don't see them as being on the same spectrum. Um you know, accountability is is crucial for a mature business, you know, as we were just talking about, that you know, you need to deliver when you say you're going to. Um and, you know, so being, you know, that that's true for being a good employee or a good employer. Um flexibility, you know, as an employer is theoretically optional. Um, you know, we can ask you to do things by rote and have, you know, be, you know, work, you know, you need to uh put your timesheet in between 9:30 and 10 on every Monday morning. Well, if I do it Friday night at 10 o'clock, what difference does it make? It's it's in by you know Monday morning. Okay. Um so I think that it's important to understand that by uh dictating like that, it it's kind of killing your culture. It it makes, you know, uh I talked about using energy that you had at the uh right time. Like if I'm not in a if maybe that's my most creative time, and if I have to do this rote task at that time, it's a waste of my energy to do that. So having flexibility, giving flexibility uh, you know, to staff to work when and how they want to the extent possible while while maintaining accountability um really just you know takes the reins off, I think. Like when you're when you're holding the reins, when you're holding real tight onto the reins of a horse, you slow them down. Um and so by using loose hands on those reins and just using them to, you know, hey, we want to go left now, we want to go right now, um, you're you're help steering where the horse is going, and maybe you're coming up to an intersection and you actually want to slow them down, but like um it you're you're enabling that horse to you know be the best that they can and take off and and get to the finish line the fastest, you know, kind of thing. Um so it's I I I see that as as the same in business that you get the best performance with with light reins, a really good horse. You find you know the best, you know, the best people that you can, um, and then just give them a little bit of input uh and and let them be the best that they can. And some good hay.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

Yeah. Nice. I I love I just love that analogy. I'd never heard that analogy before.

SPEAKER_04 36:47

The light, the the light rains and the uh I I I will I will uh shout out to my daughter-in-law uh for who's who's a horse person. Yeah, yeah, I thought that maybe that's what's got it in my head. So hi Michaela.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

You know, it's also I think what you're describing really is trust, whether it's trust between the rider and the horse, but trust between the business of the company. Once you develop you, I trust is generally earned, and and both sides have to earn that trust. But I think that um, well, I mean, I'll say maybe not. I I generally my philosophy is trust until they need guidance, right? Start out start off by trusting. Assuming everyone has good intentions. Uh, you know, assume so you know, the horse, hopefully the horse thinks, you know, you've developed this relationship with the horse or or or between people. It's it's really it's a it's about trusting people around you and whether it's an organization to a person or a person to person.

SPEAKER_04 37:38

But it's also you, you know, we talked earlier about how, you know, I said it took me a couple of few years to realize, like, oh, wait, Brian and Jeff actually trust me to do what I'm doing. Um and it's it can be the same with horses too, that, you know, uh my son and daughter-in-law take in horses who maybe have not had the best life and uh help retrain them and break them out of kind of this like anxiety place of like, oh my gosh, there's a person coming to me like being super anxious. It it's very much the same thing of like coming into Iuvo for the first time. Um, you're like, I'm used to you know, being micromanaged and told exactly what I need to do when. Um, oh wait, that's not what happens here. Like start building that trust. And um, yeah, so it's uh it we're all just horses, you know, looking looking for a big pasture and and somewhere to run.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Yeah, and I think that's an important note for anyone listening in that is trying to develop this in their company, that it does take time for the employees to to trust as well. And it is trust is always a two-way street. And so I think just being consistent in how you show up um and how you demonstrate expectations and how you demonstrate this uh flexibility and exploration um is going to be important. And then eventually it does become part of the norm for the employee as well, where they realize like, oh, this is real. The grass is greener. Who knew? Um, so we've talked a lot about you know being always on. And I'm curious what you think um risks, what risks may be involved for leaders when they prioritize availability over outcomes? Because I think it can be hard to let go of those reins. And so what risks do you feel leaders have when they're just like, I just don't know if I could do it and they're not ready to let go?

SPEAKER_04 39:43

Yeah, I mean, you can run a car constantly and it'll eventually run out of fuel, or a gas engine will seize up because of lack of oil, or it'll just deteriorate over time because of lack of maintenance. Um, and if we take the time to refuel and take care of ourselves and our people, it enables serious longevity. You know, I still have a car that I bought when I started here 14 years ago. Um, and it should roll 200,000 miles uh sometime this year. Um, and it's still going because you know, I do the regular oil changes, I do the regular maintenance, I take it it needs a bath really bad right now, but you know here, just to be clear. Um you know, but that that that maintenance makes a big difference. And so we need to maintain our people, we need to fuel our people. You know, we need to make sure that that they have the things that they need to run consistently and not expect them to run 24 hours a day because that's just not what we're built to do.

SPEAKER_02 40:48

Well, you mentioned earlier, I think, in the conversation, Jesse, you like it's not a per if you do that, you're not a person, you're a robot. It's a very similar thing, right? We're not even robots need to be main maintained, but but it's uh you know, we have a funny phrase here that I uh I'm not sure who can who coined it, but like even it doesn't matter what time of day, it could be three, it could be, I don't know, it doesn't even matter what time. Someone says, I have potato brain, I'm done. Like and I'm like, what's okay? I don't, you know, like so they they they basically have been so intense in what they're working on that their brain's not working, they're not gonna add a lot more value to what they're doing. They know they need a break. And then we don't, you know, like that's it's it's funny to hear that because uh I love that term potato brain, but at the same time, it's they're they're they recognize that they're they need it, they need some more fuel.

SPEAKER_04 41:34

It's it's so true because you, you know, there's toil and then there's like meaningful work. And so if it's four o'clock and my I've got potato brain, like what good, what am I gonna do in the next hour till you know five o'clock or to six o'clock or whatever that's that's actually gonna add value? Isn't it more valuable for me to go recharge and come back fully charged tomorrow morning and put in seven hours than to put in nine hours today doing stuff that doesn't really add much value? Like what difference does that extra hour or two make if if it's not very valuable work?

SPEAKER_02 42:16

Well, I'll say, and what's cool about this is that the regardless of the number of hours, and we've we we've come across as we we we didn't start this way. We we we were we we're using systems that measure time and tickets and various things, but we realize that people are doing maybe better work than they've ever done before with less hours. And so we're trying, we it's caused us to reframe our business a little bit to go what we really want to do is offer value to our customers. And however that's done, we gotta think we're rethinking it because of the way we because it has our culture has affected that.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think that that's that piece that we were talking about where you're measuring outcomes um instead of the time spent. And if you have that psychological safety to know that your manager, whoever you're reporting to, is you know, good with you saying, like, I've reached capacity for the day, I've hit a wall, and that they trust that you're going to show up tomorrow and because you've you know ended early or started later because you didn't sleep, there's that trust piece on both ends that you're going to be able to deliver on whatever it is you're responsible for. And to your point, Brian, nine times out of 10, when you allow a person to have that autonomy to decide, like, I can tell you right now I'm not focused, or I just got a horrible call from a family member and I'm stressed and now I can't focus. Feeling like you can step away so that you can take care of yourself and then come back recharged, you're absolutely getting better spend for your buck, you know, with your employees because they're gonna feel taken care of, they're gonna want to work harder for you. Um, and and they're going to be ready mentally to do so. Can't believe we're already coming up on time for this episode. So I do have just a few more questions for you, Jesse. I am curious, what's one mindset shift that leaders can make to better support creativity and balance?

SPEAKER_04 44:08

Yeah, I would say don't hire anyone you don't trust. Um if you don't trust an employee to work from home, why do you trust them to work in front of your customers? Uh this seems like table stakes to me. Um it's I think it's something that uh there's such an efficiency multiplier when people have the freedom to make decisions without all the red tape, um, but still are accountable for their outcomes. And so I think trust is just the the core of that.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Yeah, no, absolutely. And what advice would you give to leaders who are afraid of losing control by giving people more flexibility?

SPEAKER_04 44:47

Yeah, so this is where that that horse analogy comes in. You know, loosen the reins, the horse will run faster and uh, you know, perform to its its highest uh potential.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

Yeah, and if there's that fear, maybe there's a need to evaluate that relationship because maybe there's a reason there's not trust, and maybe that's something you know to look at as well. Brian, any closing questions for you that you'd like to ask Jesse before our final question that we like to end with?

SPEAKER_02 45:14

No, I I've uh I thought no, Jesse's brought this some really good analogies that I hadn't thought of in a different way. I love it. So um, so I'm I've I've learned a lot from from Jesse on this episode.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

Same. I feel like I'm gonna be thinking cars and horses uh after that.

SPEAKER_04 45:32

I just gotta stop mixing my analogies though. I should have picked one and stuck with it.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

No, I love it. I love it. It speaks to different audiences, Jesse. There you go. Um, we like to ask on your first time on the podcast, uh, for a closing question, what's a fun fact about you that might surprise people?

SPEAKER_04 45:50

Yeah, so I think this is surprising for, you know, because I'm a technology person and it might be why I'm a technology person, um, but for the first four years of my life, I lived in a house that did not have electricity or running water. And the only reason that we had a telephone is that my mom was a little freaked out about having a newborn baby a mile back on a dirt road. Um, so I I grew up in a very, you know, non-technological uh house uh and very slowly moved into technology and and my curiosity like led me to take apart my Walkman and see how it worked and uh and stuff like that. But I came out of, I think, out of uh having grown up with none of it.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:37

Oh, it sounded like you were like uh Abe Lincoln or something, you know, a girl. Come on, I'm not that old.

SPEAKER_00 46:43

Oh no, Walkman, Jesse.

SPEAKER_03 46:46

So Yeah, I mean I referen I mean it was electricity was available. My parents just uh yeah, you know, chose not to have any.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

Awesome. Well, Jesse, thank you so much for being on today. This brings us to the end of today's episode of Edge of Excellence. As we heard today, creativity, balance, and trust aren't soft ideas. They're foundational to building resilient, high-performing teams. If you'd like to learn more about how IUVO helps empower organizations through transformative IT consulting, please visit iuvotech.com. You'll also find this episode along with all of our past and future conversations available there.

SPEAKER_02 47:26

Yeah, thank you so much for listening. And until next time, keep building teams and cultures that inspire excellence without needing a deliverable for every moment.

SPEAKER_00 47:35

Thank you for tuning in to the edge of excellence. We hope today's insights empower you to shape your future and rise to your full potential. Let's continue to grow, innovate, and lead, pushing the boundaries of excellence.