How to Market Your Business Without Overwhelm (Simple Website + Email Strategy) | Dave Charest

Feeling stretched thin by ever-changing platforms and endless marketing advice? We sat down with Dave Charest, Director of Small Business Success at Constant Contact, to chart a calmer, clearer route to growth. Dave has spent two decades translating complex marketing into plain English and actionable steps, and he brings a refreshingly grounded approach: simplify your message, own your audience, and take consistent action.

We start by naming the real culprit: marketing overwhelm. Dave breaks down how FOMO and scattered tactics drain time and confidence, then shows how focus brings momentum. You’ll learn the four questions every homepage must answer—what is it, who is it for, so what, and what’s next—and how removing sliders, vague headlines, and clutter can raise conversions fast. We dig into value-first list building with examples that work today, from a pizzeria offering free garlic knots to service pros using content upgrades and delayed pop-ups that fit the moment.

From there, we map a simple email growth ladder: send a welcome email that delivers immediately, establish a cadence you can keep, then layer in segmentation and light automation. Dave shares practical plays like click segmentation to identify intent (think “Need Catering?”) and how announcement, reminder, and last-chance emails convert without being pushy. We also explore the RPE framework—Review, Plan, Execute—to help you choose priorities, protect time, and move forward without burnout. And in a world of AI-generated sameness, Dave makes a powerful case for showing your face and point of view to build trust and stand out.

If you want a strategic, human way to turn your website and email into a reliable growth engine, this conversation gives you the steps to start this week. Subscribe, share with a fellow founder who’s stuck in the weeds, and leave a quick review to tell us which tactic you’ll try first.

Are you feeling the marketing overwhelm as an entrepreneur? This marketing podcast episode addresses how businesses often create resources without considering the reality of a small business owner's life. Also, offer practical marketing tips and a solid marketing strategy to help achieve business success without falling into the FOMO trap of new online marketing trends.

In this episode of The Website Growth Show, Rana Shahbaz sits down with Dave Charest, Director of Small Business Success at Constant Contact, to talk about why marketing feels overwhelming for small business owners and how to simplify it without losing results.

Dave has spent over 20 years helping business owners use their website and email list as reliable growth tools instead of chasing every new marketing trend.

This conversation is designed for business owners who feel stuck, overwhelmed, or unsure what to focus on next.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

✅ What marketing overwhelm really is and why it happens

✅ Why doing everything is hurting your growth

✅ How to simplify your website message so people understand it fast

✅ The four questions every homepage must answer

✅ Why your website is still your most important marketing asset

✅ How to collect email addresses without annoying visitors

✅ What actually works for lead capture t

Transcript

Defining Marketing Overwhelm

Rana 0:00

So what is the marketing overwhelm? How do you define that? One, I think a lot of businesses often create resources for business owners that don't really take into account the reality of the small business owner's life. And it's very easy sometimes for marketers to fall on this track trap of getting excited about marketing and talking about marketing. And then and there's a new thing coming out that feels like if you're not doing it, you've got this FOMO thing going on because it looks like everybody else is doing great. But the reality is many of those people aren't, right? Because they're showing the best stuff. And so I like to focus people on all right, what are the most priority things? Like what are the goals of your business? One. And then we all have access to the same tools. So how do you use the tools then to help you reach that goal versus just do things because you think you have to do it? If somebody mentions something to you, the first thing you do is go try to find out more information, and you ultimately end up on that person's website, right? And having that website allows you to tell your story and it allows you to control what that message is so that the person looking gets confirmation that, oh, this is this is exactly what I'm looking at.

Dave Charest 0:56

Lead capture. I know you guys must be seeing lots of opt-in boxes and lead capture forms. What is the number one thing working today to collect email addresses because it's getting difficult and difficult to collect people?

Rana 1:08

Yeah, I think if you want people to join your list, don't focus on people joining your list.

Dave Charest 1:11

So imagine if you have a billboard, a big billboard. So on this topic, what would you like to add on that billboard? Most small business owners stream of growth, but they often find themselves overwhelmed, unsure what to focus on, lina, dozen directions and lost in marketing advice that doesn't fit the reality of their day. Today's guest understands that world better than many. Dave Sherist, director of small business success at Constant Contact, has spent over 20 years helping entrepreneurs cut through the noise and turn simple fundamentals into real results. What makes Dave remarkable is how he translates marketing into plain language and actionable steps. He's been the communicator in small businesses, he's built his own business, and now he helps thousands of owners use their website and email to actually move people closer to a sale. His philosophy is simple focus on what works, simplify your message, and take consistent action because progress beats overwhelmed every time. Dave, welcome to the website growth show. And I'm excited to learn how businesses can make their website their number one growth tool.

Rana 2:17

Rana, thanks so much for having me. Uh it's a pleasure to be here. And uh hopefully I can uh make some coherent answers to some of your questions here today.

Dave’s Journey And Philosophy

Dave Charest 2:25

Absolutely. As we were discussing uh 15 years ago when I started, I learned two biggest assets on the internet. One is your self-hosted blog or website, and one is the email list. So I'm sure we have plenty to learn from you in this episode. So before we get into nitty-gritty of how to, you know, pick up business and grow through email and website, what is your why? Why you coach businesses market without overwhelming?

Rana 2:52

You know, that's a great question. I think, you know, for me, I um growing up, I was always kind of fascinated seeing the bus different businesses kind of looking into shops and then seeing some businesses with like a lot of people in them, and then some other businesses that didn't have a lot of people in them. And I was always kind of curious as to, I don't understand how that business works. Like, how is that still like around when there aren't people in there? And so I was always kind of curious about that. And and I never really had my own business until there was a period in time, and I think I guess we're going on 20 years now, similar to you, right? I started learning about online marketing. I was working at a small business and I had done a lot of work at small businesses, and I was always kind of the de facto person who would, we need to write something or we need to communicate something. Let's let's have Dave do it, right? So I was always the kind of the communicator guy. And uh it got to a point though where, you know, I wasn't really happy at that. I was doing like insurance billing, and that wasn't really what I was passionate about at all. And uh I was like, all right, you know what? We had the opportunity, my family at the time, my wife had an opportunity to work full-time, and we had just had twin girls, so actually just turned 21 yesterday, and uh, or Sunday, I should say. I was like, you know what? I I've been getting into this online marketing piece, and I I feel like this is I was kind of teaching myself this, and I was like, this feels like a an exciting time, right? Where you can actually communicate with people and and and do all these things. And I was I had a theater background and I was thinking specifically how theaters could use it to better extend their storytelling with things like email, for example, and all of that. And so anyway, I took the leap and I started my own business and I got some consulting gigs and I was doing all of that and you know, kind of staying at home with my girls as when they were little as well, too. And throughout that process, I realized, okay, I'm really good at this marketing bit, right? Running the business, not so much, right? And I started thinking, I was like, wow, okay, you know, I'd really love the opportunity where I could find some place to do this, which allows me to share what I know, but not have to worry about the business side of it, which led me to constant contact. And I've been with constant contact for uh, geez, over 14 years now. And it really allowed me the opportunity to take all that I was learning as a small business owner myself, because I was teaching myself how to do all of this as well. So I was able to really translate that to other business owners. You know, for me, I know there are so many business owners that get started, not because they want to do marketing. It's because they want to do the thing that they enjoy doing and where they have a skill at. And marketing is just one of those things that comes along with, you know, one of the many hats that you have to wear as a business owner. And it was just uh uh it makes me happy to be able to understand the marketing bits of it and then translate that in a way that just makes sense to a business owner who doesn't have a marketing degree. And uh, you know, uh that's what gets me excited. And uh yeah, I've been going strong for, you know, over 20 years now doing that.

Dave Charest 5:38

So exciting story. So uh I'm sure we are going to learn a lot from you in this episode. Normally businesses are good at what they do, not at the marketing. So it's uh it's the other way around. You loved marketing, not the business side. Right, exactly. Yeah.

Rana 5:53

So and and I should add, you know, I have nothing but the utmost respect for business owners too. I think that's is always fascinating to me, the businesses that make it work. And and a lot of times it's just, you know, getting your message, getting your business seen. And that's where I feel like I can compliment and help them with that. But I know it takes a lot of work to run a business and nothing but the utmost respect for people who make it work.

Focus Beats FOMO

Dave Charest 6:14

Great. And you coach businesses to market without overwhelming. So, what is the marketing overwhelm? How do you define that?

Rana 6:21

Well, marketing overwhelm is is a couple of things. One, I think a lot of businesses often create resources for business owners that don't really take into account the reality of the small business owner's life. And it's very easy sometimes for marketers to fall on this track trap of getting excited about marketing and talking about marketing and then saying, like, okay, you just got to do all of these things, but not realize that like all of those things mean I'm being taken away from doing something else. And so the overwhelm comes with hearing everybody say, Oh, you gotta be on this, you gotta be on that, you gotta do this thing. It's constantly changing. The updates, you know, as you know today, are just updating like almost every minute. And there's a new thing coming out that feels like if you're not doing it, you've got this FOMO thing going on because it looks like everybody else is doing great. But the reality is many of those people aren't, right? Because they're showing the best stuff. And so the overwhelm for me is the feeling like you have to do everything and then just not really sure where to start. And so what I like to do is try to help people focus on some fundamental things. And my hope is always if you if you focus on these fundamental things, you'll get something actually working for you without just spinning your wheels. We particularly see this on social media a lot where everybody feels like, okay, I gotta be here, I gotta be there, I gotta be here. And so they're doing a whole bunch of things, little things here and there, here and there, and they're just spinning their wheels. They're not really gaining any traction. And so I like to focus people on all right, what are the most priority things? Like, what are the goals of your business? One, and then we all have access to the same tools. So, how do you use the tools then to help you reach that goal versus just do things because you think you have to do it? And my hope is always that once you start doing something, you'll see a little bit of I've got, okay, I'm I'm bringing in people. I like something is working. And then you get excited and you say, okay, whoa, okay, well, what can I add to that? Right. And I think though, too, if you can get something working, you earn the right to start adding other things into the mix. And so that's really how I kind of look at it is like, okay, what's most important to you now? What is the goal? And what are the foundational things that we can just make sure are in place so that something is working for you, and then you can start to figure out where to go next.

Dave Charest 8:26

I could not agree more. FOMO is the real thing, and you have to focus on something to get results. I can relate to my story as well. 15 years ago, when we started, we were ambitious. We wanted to do everything, you know, website development, SEO, social media. Nothing was working. The moment we picked up like a WordPress agency, WordPress development, that was our sweet thought. Everything started to click and today we are doing for over over 10 years.

Rana 8:52

Congratulations to you for one, right? And but it it's amazing what happens when you actually pick a focus, right? You decide. And I think that's one of the challenging things, too, about just being a business owner is that I don't know if you're even prepared for how many decisions you actually have to make. And it's difficult sometimes because everything seems like it could potentially be good, right? But if you don't make a commitment or again, focus on what your goal is so you can make that choice, it's not until you make that choice that things really start to move. I mean, I even think of that in my own scenario where, you know, we were kind of floundering around my wife and I, until we said, okay, uh, so I'm from the Massachusetts area. And at the time, we we were in in the New York, we were living in New York. And once we made the decision, hey, I think we should move back to Massachusetts in the states where where I'm from, because it'll be a better situation. Once we actually made that decision, well, then it opened up. Okay, so if we make that decision, that means I've got to get a job, right? Or we've got to do this. And so the the plan starts to open up for you. And it's because you made that decision. Without it, you're just kind of like, oh, I don't know, maybe, I don't know, right? You make the decision within two weeks, I had the job at Constant Contact. I had my kids registered for school, and we were ready to go. And all because we we made that decision.

Dave Charest 10:04

Excellent. And let's get back to the marketing. So, why businesses come to you for marketing? What problem do you guys do you solve?

Why Your Website Still Matters

Rana 10:12

Well, I think at a couple of levels. So I work for Constant Contact, as I mentioned, and Constant Contact offers a series of tools that's built on AI technology, AI powered tools that allow people to create content, allow them to share their message, and manage their contacts and leads. And so the core of that and what Constant Contact is most known known for is their the email marketing portion of our platform. But we also allow you to do things like text marketing and social media marketing and manage events and those types of things as well. But it's all kind of powered by AI that helps kind of make this stuff easier for you. And, you know, early on, similar to yourself, you know, learning the ins and outs of just online marketing and content marketing is where I really kind of hung my hat. Email marketing is the core of the a digital marketing strategy. And so I saw the value in that. And I mean, even if you think of what's going on today, I mean, we see so many times people will start with social media because it's easy, right? It feels like, okay, there's a low barrier of entry entry. You already kind of know how to use it. But the problem with that, and I'm sure you you've seen this as yourself as too, is that you know, it's a great way to engage and reach people in some instances, but in many instances, it's also algorithm-driven today. And those algorithms change. And most importantly, if something happens, I mean, we've had issues with TikTok, for example, in the States. We've had, you know, sites go down. I've had, I've seen people like actually lose access to their pages. When you lose that, but you don't own that direct connection to the audience. And so people come to us so that they can one, yes, do their marketing there, but also move those people closer and own that relationship. I like to say, right? You have that direct connection. So that means using things like email, for example. Once somebody opts in, right? This is where somebody raises their hand to say, I want to be connected to your business. I want to learn more. When you do that, you've got a much stronger, there's power in that somebody opting in, right? You don't, it's not an interruption anymore. They're actually inviting you into their inbox. And there's just power in that. I mean, still today we see email marketing as a huge, huge channel for businesses to just drive and build those relationships that are important to their business that help them get to whatever that next level is. And so that's why people come to us because we have tools designed specifically for small businesses, meaning you don't need the marketing tree to figure out how to use the stuff, right? And we're trying to, as much as possible, you know, we have a vision where when we get more advanced with this, that we want to be able to handle as much of that heavy work with the marketing as we can so businesses can get back to the things that they would rather be doing. Right. And so where I come in with my hat as director of small business success, I also host a podcast for constant contact. It's really taking these conversations I've had with small business owners over the years and then translating that into takeaways and things that they've done or things that we've seen happen and work that then make it feel doable, right, at the end of the day without that overwhelm. So it feels like you can go, okay, I can actually do this thing that you mentioned and it makes sense to me. And then great. And I want to have you taking action because it's through the doing. I think you'll see with any small business, any business really, it's through the doing that you make progress. And so I'm a big believer in doing something is better than doing nothing. Even if you, even if the thing fails, you're gonna learn something from that and you're gonna be closer to doing something, right? Versus hemming and hawing and and waiting for it to be perfect and and all of that stuff, right? I want to give you things that you can do so that you can see some type of result, whether that's good or bad, but it's moving you in a direction.

Lead Capture That Actually Works

Dave Charest 13:43

Excellent. And uh, I agree with this. We call it like a social media rent place. Email, you own it and you have a one-to-one uh relationship with your customers. Great. The business is uh say, for example, recently a business came to you with a marketing overwhelm. What was they trying to do and how you manage to help them to take it to uh uh their expectations?

Rana 14:04

Yeah, well, one of the things I mentioned, you know, this recently happened. This was a nonprofit, actually, or not for profit that came came through. And somebody on my my newsletter list had reached out. And you know, I often talk about this idea of how important the homepage is for your business. Like people today often think, Oh, do I need a website? And I'm sure you hear hear this as well, right? Like, oh, do I even need one now? I've got like a Facebook page, right? Like right. And you're like, okay, like that's fine and you should have that thing. But I'm a big believer in like, yes, you need a website for the simple fact that if somebody mentions something to you, the first thing you do is go try to find out more information and you ultimately end up on that person's website, right? And having that website allows you to tell your story and it allows you to control what that message is so that the person looking gets confirmation that, oh, this is this is exactly what I'm looking for. And ultimately at the end of the day, that's what they want, right? They're looking at the website very quickly to say, is this for me? And if it's somebody who referred them, they're saying, is this what the person told me it was? Right. All of those things come into play. And that's why I think the website is so important. And so I think the big thing to do is really look at it's very hard for us sometimes as business owners because we get in our own way. I even have trouble with this because it's like, okay, like, oh yeah, I could say it this way or I could say it that way, right? Or and then you you have like the curse of knowledge sometimes. What I like to do is simplify that process and say, okay, if somebody visits your website, you really need to answer four questions for them when they get there. Right. When they get there, you've got a quick moment to get somebody's attention and say, okay, is this for me? So you've got to answer, what is it? Who is it for? So what? And what should they do next? And so we were just talking about this. And I had offered to like, well, take a look at your website and you know, I'll, I'll, I'll see if I can answer those questions. I think it's even better if you one, you know, you obviously try that yourself, but also who is your, who's the person you're trying to reach? What who are the people you're trying to reach? Give it to them and if see if they can answer the questions. And if they can't, well, you know you need to make some changes. And there was a lot of things like sometimes people will still use the, you know, welcome to this website, right? And so they're they're wasting a lot of real estate saying nothing and then putting things in the way that actually don't move people toward taking the action that you want them to take. And so I think it's all about simplifying and answering those questions. And so if you can't clearly answer and articulate those, you run the risk of somebody just bouncing, right? Because they're not gonna stick around to try to figure it out. And I think that's the big thing. So that's an example there. I would say another thing too is we often talk to small businesses and say, okay, you know, if someone comes to your store or somebody comes to your website, what happens once they leave? You're just gonna wait for them to show up again. And this is why it's important to also consider on your website, right, having a way to capture that contact information, right? Whether that's by offering a discount, if that's the type of business that you have. You know, I think of we have a customer that's a pizzeria. And so when somebody visits their site, they do a really good job of answering those questions. One. And then two, there's a pop-up form that comes up and says you want some free garlic knots, right? And so they get a free piece of food if they sign up for the email list. So now somebody comes to the site if they didn't come in right away or they were just checking it out, right? But now they've got a way to contact those people and influence them coming back again and giving them a free thing to get them actually into the restaurant, right? And so I think it's the same thing if you're in a services business, right? Is there a checklist or is there a guide? Is there something that you can offer that demonstrates your expertise, that helps them overcome a challenge? And sometimes it's even just the promise of future content. Like, for example, on my website, I don't necessarily offer a what you would call a lead magnet, right? Like something that would, you know, give their they'd give their information for other than I'm sending future content, which I'm promising that will be a good tip for you, right? And so I think those things combined, really thinking about answering those questions and then having a way to capture that person if they're not buying something from you right away. It allows you to have a way to continue that relationship and then influence them in the future.

Welcome Emails And Automation

Dave Charest 17:52

We could not uh emphasize more on on this capturing the email address and getting a way of contacting the person again and again. So that's an example uh, you know, very important on website. Lead capture. I know you guys must be seeing lots of you know, opt-in boxes and lead capture forms. What is the number one thing working today to collect email addresses because it's getting difficult and difficult to collect people?

Rana 18:15

Yeah, I think I think the big thing, the number one thing that we we kind of see happen, and this is just the again, foundational stuff, basic things, is uh if you want people to join your list, don't focus on people joining your list. Focus on right? What I mean there is focus on the benefit that they're gonna get in exchange for giving you that information. And so a lot of times people will lead with the join my list. I don't know about you, Rada, but I didn't wake up this morning saying, I can't wait to get more email today, right? People aren't interested in necessarily receiving more email, but if you can offer them something and they know they're gonna get something of value to them in exchange for giving that information, well, then that's just the delivery mechanism for the information that they want to get, right? And so I think it's really that it's shifting on the form, on the landing page, on whatever tool that you're using to collect those, that information, you're making it very value-driven, right? Like you're you're gonna get this thing and it's gonna help you do that. So be very specific and clear about what you're gonna get. And all you got to do is enter your email address to do it. And I think that's one of the fundamental things that you need to do without getting into, oh, should it be a pop-up form? Should it be this? I think you should test these things because I think they're a little bit different based on the audience, right, that you're trying to reach. And so, for example, the pizzeria I mentioned, you know what, that might work great to have the pop-up come up right away. But if you're a consultant, let's say you're in a services-based business, that might just annoy people to have it come up right away, right? So you might think about the timing of what a pop-up looks like, right? How does it become additive to the content that someone is looking at? For example, let's say you have a post about that gets a lot of traffic about a specific thing. Well, can you create uh like a content upgrade for that particular post? Like it's about, let's say it's a checklist on how to do this thing that's in the post, right? So you're getting smarter about and more specific about how you're making that offer to capture that information. I think that's what we're seeing, Mark.

Dave Charest 20:03

Very helpful. And uh on this topic, uh, do you have any favorite example of recently you come across on your top of a head if you want to share?

Consistency Over Intensity

Rana 20:10

Yeah, I mean that that that gar garlic knot one is always a a favorite of mine just because it's so simple. And what I love about what they do with that too is that they actually tie some automation to the back end of that. So of course I've also seen this where a lot of people will have people join their email list, but then they don't have like a simple welcome email set up to either deliver on what they were promised or they just don't have anything at all. Right. And I think that's a huge missed opportunity because when you think about when people are actually doing the thing, visiting your website, signing up, they're highly, highly engaged at that moment. And so if you do not have the systems in place to connect with them on their time schedule, right? We always want our messages to be very timely and relevant. You really miss an opportunity, particularly if you're not sending on a regular schedule, which I hope people are. But if you're not, let's say somebody joins and maybe you already just sent your newsletter to somebody the day before. And then the next thing you know, that person who signed up who was all excited to hear from you is waiting three months before you you actually hear from again, they probably already forgot about you because they found the information they needed someplace else. Right. And so it's just a huge missed opportunity. And so I like that one because they one, they capture that at the right time and then they follow up with that automation that gives the people what they expected and what they got in exchange for it. And then I think it's just you know being clear on what people will receive. You know, I think of a somebody who's in real estate for example, uh, he has an email list and you know he just says I'm going to give you in my insights into what I see happening in the in the market, in the industry, right? So that you can figure out whether it's you know time to buy, whether it's time to sell. And he is very consistent. He sends a weekly email and he's been doing this for, I don't know, since like two 2017 or something like that. And because he's doing that, he's sharing his insights and he's doing those things, he actually closes a hundred deals a year and he doesn't do any prospecting. They all come from what he's sharing in his email list because he's talking to them on a regular basis, right? I also think of uh we have a uh a customer that's in the the leadership space and so she does trainings and all those types of things for for teams but she also has products that people can use for their own kind of like leadership trainings or or events that they're having like you know within the with their employees and things like that. And so similarly she sends a weekly email every Wednesday and she does kind of like a more like your traditional newsletter. So it's got a tip from her and then it's got a few other resources but then it also has like a product and a deal that in there. And so every time she sends one of those, that's something that is you know giving a bump to her her revenue for that particular week. And so I think it's it's things like that thinking about okay what what can you do? What can you offer and doing something I think this is a big one that a lot of people sometimes miss because you get excited sometimes right when you hear like if you go to an event that you go to a conference or even if you listen to a conversation like this, you're like, oh, okay, yeah, I want to do this, I'm gonna do that. And you get excited and in like maybe you know for the first couple of days you're like, all right, I'm gonna do the thing and then I got this set up. And then what happens? You get pulled in another direction because you know business owner, right? And then you you miss, you miss a thing and then you get depressed and you're like, oh no, I should have done the thing. And so you have to really think about if you're gonna do something, whether that's on social, whether that's on your website, whether that's on your right, whatever it is, pick something that you can actually commit to and consistently do. Because it's that consistency that actually ends up paying off in the long run. It's not the one thing that makes a big difference in your business. It's all the small actions that you consistently do and you keep showing up that get you to that place, right? That that may feel like that to other people, but you know you put in the work to get there. And so I often recommend that people make sure that they're putting time in their calendar to do that work and just do what you can do. So if if if once a month is what you can do, I would prefer you maybe do at least twice a month if you were sending an email newsletter, for example, okay, if that's what you can do, that's what you can do. Just do it, right? Consistently do it, consistently show up. That's going to be more beneficial to you than saying I'm gonna do this every week and then you know petering off and then just not showing up.

Dave Charest 24:12

Excellent advice most people need consistency, not intensity. So it's like a you know, you don't need a walk uh a very long walk once a month or once a year. You need to walk 30 minutes every day. Yep to to stay active and I can share my personal story as well in other my other business. I started to collect emails and it was a very simple formula. I had a form and I started to collect emails for business context. And I did exactly the same I just emailing them my research on on the industry, just the basic stuff.

Simplifying A Nonprofit Homepage

Rana 24:43

And I think that was the best decision I ever made for for for it's amazing how many opportunities like and you might not see it right away, right? Like you're you're like okay am I doing this but then you then you get like the you'll get a response from someone and you're like oh okay somebody's paying attention or then you'll you'll hear from someone that's maybe after you've been doing this for a while and you've never heard from this person before and they're like oh hey you know I've been on your list for a while and now I'm ready to do something or I know somebody that needs what you do. Right. It's like it's so interesting because I think you know social media kind of adds to this right where we're we're in this like instant gratification kind of mode where we think everything like needs to get a quick like something and it's like actually no it's just again showing up and being consistent and then being there for when people are ready because the reality is not everybody is ready to buy something all of the time. And I often talk to people actually too to make sure that you're you're thinking of ways to do both promotional things, right? Like yes, you have to sell things right and people need to know you're selling things because ultimately this is why we're doing it. But also non-promotional items because of that fact that not everybody is ready to buy. And so if you're consistently saying buy this, buy this, buy this, buy this, right? Like you're burning people out one, because they're not ready. And two, it's kind of like you're like that friend that just you know calls up when they need something from you, right? They just want to get something from you. But if you can mix these two together where you're sharing insights like you're mentioning here, right? Where you're demonstrating your value or the way you think about a solving a problem that they might be going through, they're starting to sell themselves on working with you. And so I think this is why you need a good mix of those things because it it gives people a reason to stick around when they're not ready to buy and the people that are ready can take those next steps.

Dave Charest 26:24

I so I haven't forgot that a non uh that nonprofit example where we started I think we just carried away. So nonprofit came to you with a problem. What was the problem they they were facing?

Rana 26:36

Yeah so the big thing was there was just concerned with is their website conveying what it needs to convey, right? So is it clear when you get there? And so again getting back to those questions. So what is it right? It wasn't really clear. Like there was an acronym at the top of the site like where it was kind of the name of the site and it wasn't clear all right is it I think they were in the dental business and so it was actually a school where they did like continuing education for dentists. And it wasn't very clear is this a school is this a school for new students? Is it continuing education? Like they just weren't being clear in what it was and then there was I'm not a big fan I mean you would probably know more than me on this how how how this stuff works these days but they had one of those carousels that like the picture keeps changing and the message keeps changing and I'm not a fan of those I'm I'm more of a give me the direct thing so I understand what it is. Like I'm cool if it like dynamically changes based on like cookies and things like that. But like just a rotating image like kind of drives me nuts. I think that's uh not great. And so it was really just about okay I actually looked through the website and at the bottom they had like a mission statement on like what the purpose of this thing was. And I was like it's all the way at the bottom and it very clearly stated what this business like what this nonprofit did right. And so I was like, you got to pull that up to the top get rid of the welcome stuff and like hey you know and then what is the next thing that you want them to do. And it seemed like you you want people to check out classes right or see what the schedule is. And so you've got all this other stuff in the way they had a form on there but it wasn't clear what people were signing up for. And so it's all about just getting some fresh eyes on things in many instances, right? So that you can just get clearer on what is it that you're trying to do and then how can you just remove all the distractions that don't help somebody do that thing. And and then answer those simple questions. Again, what is it? Who is it for so what should they do next? Right. So again you want people to say like this is for me. This is the thing that I'm looking for.

Dave Charest 28:24

So the nonprofit website was not working, came to you, you just simplified their message and just even even put together in a right order on the website.

Rana 28:35

Yep and then you see people to deck doing the things that you want them to do next. I think that's the big thing. What's the next step? Are they doing that? And then you start to see that increase.

Dave Charest 28:42

Aaron Ross Powell they achieved after this change.

Rana 28:45

Well so I don't have any direct results from them because it was kind of like a here I'll take a look at this and do this for you. So I don't have what they actually got from that. But again I think it's one of those things where even if you can feel better about what you're sharing with people, I mean I'm sure you run into this where people are like, oh yeah my website like they know it's not working for them and they don't even want to share it. And just being able to get to that place where okay I feel better about what this is because I know it's conveying what I want it to convey.

Dave Charest 29:09

Excellent. In your all your experience because you work with a lot of small to medium sized businesses the what we are discussing are very fundamental simple simple stuff, not techie stuff that you should have a clear website, clear message and and an easy way to people to subscribe to your email newsletter. These are three basic fundamental stuff. But it's sometimes it gets very difficult. What is the biggest challenge you you see why businesses are not able to implement these fundamental things and they are struggling uh to convert on their websites.

The RPE Framework: Review, Plan, Execute

Rana 29:41

Yeah it's a it's a I think it's it's it's time one and and and and again we get back to that overwhelm, right? And so they're not too sure what to do next. So it's looking at I often I think I mentioned that like the the review plan execute. And so that idea of this what I call the RPE framework, right? So you you gotta review where you are and say, okay, what's happening today? Am I doing the things that I need to be doing to move people closer to my business. And I often look at that as you know a constant contact we call it engagement marketing and it's this idea of you're creating a great experience for people where they connect with you, whether that's in your store, whether that's online, wherever that is, you're trying to do something where it makes somebody feel really good about that experience. From there, you're enticing them to stay connected with you. So you have a way to get influence and then you're doing you're doing your consistent engagement a lot of the stuff that we've talked about here already. And what that does is that brings people back to you. And then when you have the social visibility piece of this because a lot of these engagements are happening online, you're actually bringing new people into the mix because the people that are connected with those people are likely good prospects for your business as well. And so that cycle just keeps repeating itself right and ultimately what that means is you're just you're just getting more word of mouth right that's the typical the way most small businesses are are finding things. And so when you think about that so then how are you using your social media site? Is your website right mobile responsivity is I think really important because you don't know how people are going to get to your site and how they're looking at your site and you don't need them, you know, struggling to find the information that they need. And then having that tool to again follow up with them. And so looking at those things, what do you have in place and and give being realistic with yourself, right? Well is your website mobile responsive? Is it not? Are people joining your list? Are they are they doing those things that you want them to do? It allows you to say like all right how am I doing right? How am I doing based on on what I'm doing there? Do I have some consistency with what I'm doing with that stuff. And then from there, so you get a review, you kind of situate where you are then you can actually start to build the plan. And I think I mentioned this a little bit earlier is that we all have access to the same tools. But ultimately you want the tools to support what it is that you're trying to do for your particular business and what the priority is at that particular moment. And so this is always going to change too so how you use those tools is going to change. And so an example I give is let's say you're a B2C, right? And you're trying to open so business to consumer and you want to open a new location. Well the list of things that you're gonna do to open a new location how you're gonna use the tools that we all have access to is going to be different, let's say from let's say somebody in the B2B space or offering services that maybe is trying to run an event, right? Or a nonprofit or not for profit that is trying to bring in new donors, right? So all of those things are going to shift how you approach it. And I think that's the big thing that a lot of people miss is that they don't actually ask the question when people give advice, right? They're like, you got to do this thing, you should do this and you should do that. But they don't actually ask the first question, which is well, what are you trying to do? Right. Because I think then that points you in a direction to help you set priorities for what it is that you need to do. And so that's when you start to say, okay, are there things that I need to implement based on kind of reviewing what's going on and what I'm trying to do. And are there things that I can improve? Maybe you've got some of those things in there but it's not actually working it for you the way you want it to so then it starts to indicate and I think you know you do this, right? You do website audits, right? And so you start to learn, okay, here are the things that we would like to see because these are the things that we see working. Now how are you doing in these areas, right? And so I think it's the same thing. You're doing this assessment to then point you in a direction to make sure that you're doing the right things. And then it comes down to then putting time in the calendar and actually making time for it. Because what happens is I think marketing often becomes a a nice to do, right? Versus the thing that I need to do. And I think that means you have to protect the time. If it's 15 minutes, if it's 30 minutes, whatever it is, again making progress and thinking progress over perfection gets you closer to actually having something at the end that gives you a result. And so I think that again review, plan, execute, thinking through it in that lens really helps you uncover what you need to do, put a plan in place to help you work towards your priority and then actually put time in the calendar to do it.

Segmentation And Timely Messaging

Dave Charest 33:50

Fantastic. So if I summarize our discussion for now is that businesses who are looking to grow their business using website or online tool the first step is they have to simplify their offer their messaging on the website. Second part is important part start collecting emails and the third part this this is both related to directly to constant uh constant contact collecting emails and the third very important part how to you know send emails how to nurture your prospects so how shall they go about people who have done the first two steps now the third is very big as well to keep stay in touch with the prospects so what is what are how the constant contact can help businesses in this part.

Multi-Touch Promotions That Convert

Rana 34:34

Yeah so a couple of ways again this is a I I look at email marketing as a a kind of a it's almost like a step system, right? So like we all kind of start at one place where we're just maybe sending you know like similar to your new your letter I'm assuming you were sending those to pretty much everyone on your list, right? You have a newsletter you're sending it to everyone and that's good. Then I think what you can do from there, again you want to have that consistency, but then you can start to think about okay, what's the easiest way to get better results from what you're doing from an email marketing perspective? It's actually about thinking about the big list that you may have and thinking about in relation to your business, what are kind of the subgroups or the smaller lists that you should start to think about sending to based on things. So you can think of things like demographics, actions that people take, demographic all of those different things, right? Geographic location, all of that like you can start to think through and I think a not for profit is a good example of what I mean here because it's very clear to see oh, what the differences are. So you think of all right you have a board on a nonprofit you have volunteers you have donors you have people that may use the services of the nonprofit right those are four very different groups and you wouldn't necessarily need to talk to them all the same. And so when you start understanding that like I can actually talk to these people a little bit differently so I get more timely and more relevant information to them. Speaking of the timely piece when you start adding automation to it. So an example I'll give you here we have a customer that has a cheese shop and I I often talk a lot about gotta love the cheese. And but they also do catering and not a lot of people know that they do the catering. And so what they do is in their newsletter when they send that out, they actually have a section of the newsletter that says need catering and it's a button. And if people click that we have a tool within constant contact called click segmentation. And so what happens is if somebody clicks on that link, and we've actually, you know, I I'm sure you you you know that there's lots of like bot clicks happening now these days because of certain tools will go in and click the links, make sure everything's okay, whether that's through your work or it's through like things like Apple privacy, those types of things. So we've actually filtered out those bot clicks so we actually get real people clicking on the links. I don't know how they technically do that, but I know they do it. And I'm glad that they do because then you get actual people that you know click the link, right? So then those people get added to a list on the back end. So inside your constant contact account you have your here's everybody. Now here's my needs catering list. So anybody from everybody who clicks that thing gets added to this list. Now I have people that when I'm doing a special offer for catering, I have people that I know are going to be interested in that because they've expressed that interest. I could also if I wanted to set up an automation on that list. So when people join it, then they start getting either a series of emails or just an email right away that gives them more information that they're looking for. And that's where we get into the timely piece. And then I think from there you start to build another element where I mean we're in this era of AI now where AI, we see a world where we start to process that information in a in a in a better way to be able to give you insights into what's happening with the people on your list so that you know, hey, you should send this type of email to someone because they're at that stage where it looks like they're ready to buy, right? Or take a certain step. And so we can recommend the next best email to send to that person based on who they are. And I think that's a vision where we get to the place where you're actually starting to treat people like individuals versus kind of groups of people, smaller groups of people actually there's a single person there at the end of the day, right? So I think that starts to get really exciting. So that's how I kind of look at the three stages of where you would go with the email piece. But I think again, that's you know what you grow towards start at the foundational thing. Have an email set up send the welcome email and then have a day. So for example I send an email every other Sunday you get a welcome email from me you get a few emails in a welcome series that set up some ways that you can think about different challenges and approach them and how constant contact can help you. But then every other Sunday I'm sending you a tip that you can try to implement with your business right a takeaway. And so that's the the small piece. And now when I travel I speak and I go to keynotes and I have people subscribe you know based on the keynote that I give I'm also creating lists in the background. These are people from the UK these are people from Dallas, right? These are people from here so that when I'm back in that city, maybe I could reach out to those people like hey we're looking to get people together for a little for a few drinks before the thing you why don't you come out and see us, right? Like so now you've got ways to target people with the information that you have. And so that's how you can start to get more advanced with it.

Dave Charest 39:01

Yeah excellent advice and if if some people who are not using email I think the first bit is as you mentioned rightly just start at a list and start sending email and then keep optimizing as you go along. Just quickly I think also you what you mentioned about segmenting your uh lists with the clicks and with interest I think conversion ratios are you know totally different with those segmented lists. Is that correct?

Tools, AI, And Shipping Work

Rana 39:25

Yeah absolutely and I think what we what we often recommend people do here is think about I often say go beyond the opens and clicks, right? So think about what you actually want somebody to do that could buy that could mean purchase something. That could mean just reply to you that could mean come to the store. It could mean lots of things and sometimes those things don't show up in a dashboard. And so yes at a base level you should see your opens go up if you're segmenting. You should see your clicks go up and that's just as simple as looking at your reporting and saying okay I'm gonna look at my general sends and I'm gonna look at this segmented And how do they perform compared against each other? Right. And then, and then from there, it's going beyond that. And I want to mention one other thing that I think is really important because I think sometimes people get into the situation where they feel like they might be sending too much sometimes, right? Or they don't want to bother people. And so I want to, I want to mention, particularly when we talk about those promotional emails, when you are trying to get somebody to do something, even if it's like register for an event, for example, one of the things I like I like to let people know is that you actually have to give people multiple opportunities to take up whatever that offer is. Not because you're trying to be pushy or you're trying to be whatever. It's because people aren't thinking about your business as much as you are. And we all have our lives to get to. And the example I always give, I go back to the cheese shop where they were doing this event, and it was like, you know, local brewers, local cider makers, and it was going to be a cookout and cheeses. And I was like, oh, this looks like a really fun thing to do with the family. And I showed it to my wife, and my wife was like, oh yeah, we should definitely do that. And we were like, okay, let's do that. But then I had to run and take my kids to school. So I didn't actually click through and register for the event. I got a reminder about it. And I was like, oh yeah, that's that thing that my wife already thinks we're going to, right? You know? And so, but I was at work and I had to run into the meeting. And so I still didn't do it. But then I got a last chance email, like, hey, this is your listen, if you want to do this thing, this is your opportunity. And that's when I actually did the thing because I was like, I don't want to get in trouble for saying we were going to this thing and that, you know, like we we didn't we didn't go because I didn't register for it. Right. And so by giving people multiple opportunities, you're actually doing them a service versus interrupting them or because people that aren't interested are just going to ignore it. Right. But the people that are are going to be like, oh yeah, you're actually doing them a service. And you'll likely see, I think it's important to look at again, what are the things that you wanted to have happen? So in this case, register for an event. You might see high opens on the first one, but not a lot of people actually register for the event. But on the last one, you might see less in terms of opens from the first one, right? But you see more people register. And that's the thing you actually wanted people to do. And so if you look at those in isolation, you might say, the opens are low on this one. So I'm not going to do that one anymore. But that's when the people actually did the thing you wanted them to do, right? And so you kind of have to look at it like that. So that I bring that up because think about announcement, reminder, last chance. Give them multiple opportunities. And the timing of those things is all different based on the nature of your business and when you need to have people thinking about things, right? Because like if you're doing an event every year, you could do something. You know, you'll see this with events, right? Where right after you've left the event, they're already telling you about the next one, right? That's coming up next year and getting you booked for that. You might not need to do that. It depends on the nature of your business. But I like to think of it three weeks out, send the announcement, two weeks out, send the reminder in either the day of the thing expiring or the thing a couple days before, send that last chance. That's a good place to start to see how that works for you. But that again gets people to that place where you actually get more people doing the thing because you're giving them more opportunities too.

Dave Charest 42:56

Excellent advice. And when we people, when we speak with people like yourself or marketers, they often share that that final call email normally, you know, convert the better of their series of uh their emails. So I agree. And as a mark as a marketer, what is the uh unusual habit or a tool served you really well so far?

Show Yourself To Build Trust

Rana 43:16

That's an interesting one. Well, so I feel like that I'm I'm not gonna say I'm not gonna say AI because like I feel like that's a that's a new one now, right? And this was the year that I'm like, okay, I'm gonna really commit to like using it and helping having it help me do the things that I do. Uh, but for me, I would say as a as a person who creates content, right? I come from content marketing and uh and writing, uh the thing that has been helpful to me is I use a couple of apps for writing in a journal, uh, for what was one of them, and I try to write every day. And I think that's something for me that has been very helpful because it helps you get your ideas out, right? And helps you reshape those ideas and know what to share. And, you know, when you think of, I'll bring the AI piece into it, right? I don't want AI to do that writing for me necessarily. What I wanted to do is take my ideas and help me get more usage out of them. And so, for example, if I were smart, I would have recorded this conversation that we were having today, right? And then taken that and say, hey, what are the lessons that I talked about in here? And then I can go in and say, like, okay, let me expand on this, right? And then I can turn those into some other piece of content that I can use. And I think for me, it's, and I'll reframe this for people who may not like consider them themselves writers. I think it's where what is the mode? Because everything is content, right? Like marketing is creating some type of content, whether that's for your website, that's on a social channel, whether it's for an email. So, what is the mode that you feel most comfortable sharing your expertise and find a way to consistently do that? If it's talking to customers where you feel most comfortable, make sure you're recording those sessions, removing the sensitive information, of course, if you need to, but finding a way to then repurpose that stuff. I call that kind of doing double duty. And I think putting a system in place to do things like that will allow you to get more. I think the master of this is what, like Gary Vaynerchuk, right? Like he records everything and he shares like everything. But you've got to feed that beast, right? And that's what creates the opportunities. And so I didn't necessarily get to a specific tool. It was more of like a specific thing that I do, more so than a tool. But I am finding these days, like the AI pieces of it, like the chat GPT and like those types of things, like as I get better at understanding how to use it, I'm finding it more and more valuable to actually get me to a place where I have something closer to done versus all the steps I need to figure out in the middle. And I think, you know, this is something we even look at at constant contact. We have a what we call a campaign builder, where if you have a goal for your business or a particular campaign, you can put that in and then it will create social posts, it will create emails and it will give you the timeline of when those should go out. So then you have something you can react to and make changes to if you need to, but it it shortens the gap from between I have a thing that I need to do, hit publish, right? It shortens that gap for you because again, the the theme with the business owner, right, is that like I know I need to do the thing, but I've got to do these 20 other things before I can even come in and do these other things. And so we want to shorten that gap.

Dave Charest 46:11

Yeah, magic happens when you ship whatever you're creating. So that's where the magic happens. So imagine if you have a billboard, a big billboard. So on this topic, what would you like to add on that billboard?

One Action To Do This Week

Rana 46:23

I think a big thing, particularly for small business owners, is show yourself on the website. The reason I say this is because I think this is even more important in this age of AI. We like to do business with people we know, we like, and we trust. And part of that is seeing and getting a sense of who you are as a person. What would it be like to work with you? And you can't see that if you don't put it on the website, right? And I think so many people pull themselves away from it, trying to make themselves look bigger than they are. Constant Contact did a study, and we found that actually, more than any other generation, millennials and generation Z were seeking out small businesses. And oftentimes people tell us that they want to support small businesses, but they don't actually know, they don't recognize that the business is a small business. And I think whatever you can do to add personality in who you are as a person and your expertise is more and more important because we're gonna be in this world of sameness. Exactly. You know, and I think that allows you to stand out.

Dave Charest 47:25

Yeah, me or you as a unique person and our creativity, I think, will differentiate us or will be highly important in the in the coming days. So excellent advice. Wrapping up our today's episode, you shared you know, brilliant advice. There are plenty of takeaways to help you grow your business using the power of your website and and the email list. What is the most important? Like one, can you give one action piece out from this episode? The business owners who are listening or watching to us can implement this week to you know take get one person better.

Rana 47:59

Yeah, I would say take a look at something that you know is working for you. And then take a look at it and say, is there something I can do to make this work better? And then try that. And the reason I say start with something that you know is working is because oftentimes we try to fix something that's broken, but we don't really know why it's broken. If you try to improve on something that you know is working, you can actually see the impact of making the change. And then you know that that is in relation to something and that is something that you can kind of take with you. And so that's what I would say. Like if you know something is working in your business, how can you look to make that more efficient, make that work better for you? So then you know how to apply that moving forward.

Closing Thoughts And Subscribe

Dave Charest 48:37

Once again, great advice. This is what this is the same lesson I learned maybe at the start of my business career. When I read emith from Michael Gerber, he researched, I think, 35,000, if I'm correct, small businesses. And then he wrote that emyth mystery book. And one of the lessons I still remember, whatever is working, this is the differentiator between the businesses who are doing great and who are not. The businesses who are doing great, they find what is working and they orchestrate that part while they are trying to figure out next thing. So great, great, great advice on that part. Again, uh on our today's topic, I try to, with limited time, try to ask you a few different questions. Is there any question which I should have asked you to help improve this uh today's discussion, which I haven't? Ooh, that's a great question.

Rana 49:25

I would just say this. I think for any small business out there who's not too sure where to go next, what to do next, or they're feeling overwhelmed, know this. Like you have likely have all the things that you need to take some type of action. So just commit to taking the action. Push yourself to do that. Find somebody that can give you some uh, you know, hold you to it, right? Get that out there, but but do it because you're gonna learn so much more than not doing it that I think that's what's important. It's just taking those next steps. A friend of mine always talks about this idea of, you know, there are stupider people than you have that that have done it, right? And it's true. The difference between the people that move forward and the people that stay in the same spot are they just did something to move them forward. And you've got something that a lot of people don't have in terms of running your own business, which is the fact that you've actually decided to do that thing. A lot of people don't have the courage to do that. Now just take those next steps.

Dave Charest 50:20

Brilliant advice, Dave. And uh thank you very much for your time. I'm sure there's lots of takeaways from this episode from businesses can pick one pick and implement to grow their uh businesses. So really appreciate it. Rana, great talking to you. Thanks for the opportunity today. But that's it for this episode of the website growth show. If you find it helpful, please consider subscribing. Until next time, keep going.