Rachael Mathews on Health OCD, Anxiety & Motherhood

In this episode of The OCD Confessional, we’re joined by Rachael Mathews, OCD advocate and creator of the Hold Space community, to talk about living with health OCD and anxiety.

Rachael shares her experience navigating intrusive thoughts and constant fear around her health. We talk about what health OCD actually feels like, why reassurance never quite sticks, and how anxiety can quietly take over your day-to-day life.

We also explore:
 • What health OCD really looks like beyond “being a hypochondriac”
 • Intrusive thoughts and fear of illness
 • How motherhood changes the experience of OCD
 • The importance of community and feeling understood
 • The story behind Hold Space, her private support group for people navigating health anxiety and OCD

Rachael’s story is honest, calming, and deeply relatable — especially for anyone whose OCD shows up as fear about their body, their health, or their future.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

I've been worrying that I was gonna get the time difference wrong. So I thought I'd just get here a little bit early.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Wait, you have a lot of people. No.

unknown 0:09

I know.

SPEAKER_05 0:10

I feel like I'm amongst friends here, so it's okay. I was thinking about this last night, you guys, about how grateful I am to know Liam and to build this community of people because never in my life have I felt more understood. And it is so important that we surround ourselves with people who have experienced what this is.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

I'm Alicia. And I'm Liam. We both have OCD. And instead of spiraling alone, we decided to turn our symptoms into a podcast. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_05 0:44

Here we overshare real stories, laugh through the anxiety, and talk to actual experts who can explain why your brain keeps asking, What if I accidentally marry my cousin?

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Whether your thing is hand washing, mental rituals, or just silently panicking during normal conversations, congrats. You have found your people.

SPEAKER_05 1:02

This is a safe place, and let's turn interest of thought. In which case, get in line, buddy. We're booked.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

So grab a weighted blanket, cancel your plans for the fifth time, and let's dive in. This is the OCD Confessional.

SPEAKER_05 1:16

And yes, we did check this recording four times before uploading it. Today's guest is someone bringing a much-needed level of honesty to the conversation around OCD and health anxiety. She shares her lived experience in a way that highlights what these conditions actually feel like day to day, especially the parts people don't always see or understand. For a long time, she felt completely alone in her thoughts and patterns, which made everything feel even heavier. But when she started opening up, she realized just how many others were going through the same thing, just without a space to talk about it. That realization led her to create Hold Space, a community where people can connect, have more honest conversations, and feel less alone in what they're experiencing. Please welcome Rachel. Okay. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for being here, Rachel. We always start every episode off with a confession. Is there anything that you would like to confess today?

SPEAKER_04 2:06

Yeah, no, I've been trying really hard to think about something for this. It's been like the one thing that I've been like, what can I say here? Because I do feel like I'm so open about everything. Like I feel like I talk so openly about it now that I don't really have any secrets left. Um, but I do have something that I suppose it's kind of funny, but it's probably also a little bit sad. Um so when I was a child, I I've definitely had OCD forever, but I um a bit like you, like only really recently actually had a label for it. Um and when I was a child, I genuinely believed that I was like Matilda and I had like brain superpowers. Like I really thought that my thoughts affected things, but I wasn't, I don't think I was really afraid of it that much. It's just that I really believed it. And I I actually remember being at school, and um, I must have been in maybe like year three or four. So I was I was young, and um, I remember saying to my saying to my friend behind a tree, we were like sharing secrets, and I said to her, I've got to tell you something. And I basically told her about this superpower that I had, and she was like, I don't think that's a thing. And I was like, No, I'm like Matilda. I think that I actually am. That's amazing. Um yeah, and it's like some of the things that you would think. I know, I don't I don't think at the time I really even understood like why I was thinking that, but I genuinely believed that if I thought about something enough, it I it was actually like in the opposite way than I that I would want it, because if I believe that if I thought about something enough, it actually wouldn't happen. So for example, I never used to let myself get excited about anything because I thought that if I got too excited about it and I like got my hopes up, it wouldn't happen. So I used to force myself to believe, like to believe that things weren't gonna happen. So even things like my friend coming around for a sleepover, for example, I would just force myself to believe that that wasn't actually gonna happen because otherwise I thought it wouldn't happen. Um, and I really believed that I could control it.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

That at least an realization or something. I have done that my whole life. I call it expectations management so that if I expect a really great thing is gonna happen, I get so excited, and then if it doesn't end up happening, I'm gonna be disappointed and devastated. So instead, I don't let myself feel excited. I put a governor on my joy, a partner on my excitement, so that I won't end up disappointed, and then all it does is just rob you of all the joy and excitement that you should be.

SPEAKER_04 4:54

You just miss out on being excited, don't you?

SPEAKER_05 4:57

You just miss out on that. What kind of uh OCD would that fall under? What is that? I don't even know, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Magical thinking, or I don't know exactly if that falls into a subtype neatly. Um, but I'm curious when you were Matilda, you you wouldn't let yourself get too excited about something because you thought you would cause it to not happen. Were there other things that you thought you had power over? Like, did you ever imagine yourself moving objects with your mind and doing some Jedi trick?

SPEAKER_04 5:32

I did. I did used to think that if I had because I I genuinely believed that this was like a thing that had happened. I don't know if maybe at one point I had been excited about something and then it didn't happen, and then I believed that that's wise because I was excited. I don't know about that, but I genuinely believed that it was like a real superpower that I had. And so I did try, I did used to try and move things. Like I used to try and move my water bottle, like I used to try and make it make it be something that was good.

SPEAKER_05 6:04

Um I've done that before, where there were times where I'd be at a baseball game and I'm like, I'm gonna make him strike out, and I would just stare at him for long enough and say, Yeah, that's probably more common. You guys, there's a crazy delay right now happening.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

That's so weird that it's only delayed for you. And maybe Matilda is causing this right now. Rachel, are you trying to make us delayed right now?

SPEAKER_04 6:31

Maybe. Don't even put that though in my head.

SPEAKER_05 6:35

Yeah, don't start that. Okay, before we go any further, I'm always curious when I listen to these podcasts. I'm like, okay, where are you right now with your OCD? We are gonna go back to when you first discover it, but I want to know also where are you today? Do you still have it?

SPEAKER_04 6:51

I'm yeah, I'm very much in the thick of it. I do feel like I'm in control a little bit more. Um, I think even actually, no, I'm I'm quite recently diagnosed with ADHD. Um I have been diagnosed with ADHD as well. Um quite recently diagnosed with OCD. Um, it was about a year ago for me as well. So I am also kind of learning about it as I go, and I'm also sort of connecting dots and being like, oh, that's why I was like that. And yeah, that's sort of all making sense. So I'm definitely um not as bad as I have been. Um, but I I definitely still have um things that I do that most people don't do.

SPEAKER_05 7:36

Yeah, and let's talk about that. You talk a lot about your health anxiety and OCD and how you know the in the invisible side of OCD. Um what does that look like for you?

SPEAKER_04 7:49

Yeah, it to be honest with you, um every day can look so different. Um, but there's a few things that are really consistent, I would say. So um I constantly worry about the outcome of something, like that the way that my actions are gonna have an outcome, like affect the actions. And I have that in farming, oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. So I will constantly be thinking, like, if I do this, this is gonna happen. If this happens, this is gonna happen. Like I can connect like years and years and years down the line based on what I buy from Tesco's. Like I can literally connect things so far into the future. Um, so there's that. And then I also um very regularly, I would say multiple times a day, get stuck in like repetitive loops in my head. So not really physical loops. Like I don't think I I hope, I hope they're not something that people would notice. But in my head, they're incredibly loud and incredibly like repetitive. So it could be, um, for example, I could literally just hear something on the telly, like someone says something on the telly, and I will replay that over and over again. Um I I get I get really stuck on things. Um I have like physical compulsions where I body check a lot. Um, so when I'm it when I've been like at the worst of it, I had quite a bad um dip, I suppose you could call it, in uh just December, January this year. And um, I was body checking like every half an hour. Anytime I was in front of a mirror, I was doing full body checks. Um, any I was making excuses to go and have like a bath or a shower so that I could body check. So there's a definite physical side of it as well. Sorry, what do you mean by body? Like feeling feeling for like lumps and bumps and any changes, or and I'll like I'll like look in the mirror to see if there's anything off, um, looking at moles. Um, you know, I've got an ache on my shoulder, like that must be X, Y, and Z. Um so yeah, it it can be it on it can be very consuming like on a on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_05 10:10

Is there something that triggered that thought and deep-rooted fear of maybe having something like cancer? Or is there an underlying reason for that? Do you that you can identify?

SPEAKER_04 10:22

Um I don't to be honest, I don't really know. Like I've in therapy and things, I have spoken about that because before the OCD, this has been going on for quite a while for me. Um, I don't know if you w want to talk about that in more detail a bit later on, but when it actually started, it was really intense. And um Yeah, but hear about that. Yeah, so it first started when well I've been having the OCD tendencies my whole life, but not not really surrounding health, definitely just in terms of like my Matilda brain, like I can make this happen with my thoughts or thing. Um, but then the actual health side of it really started after my um second baby was born, and I think at that point I realized that it had actually been happening since my first baby was born. I just hadn't really connected the dots because when she was born, we had COVID and everything happening. So there was so much going on that it was actually very, very difficult to um notice that it was something separate to myself and not like actually everyone's feeling like this at the moment. Um, so then when she was born, um it yeah, it was it was really bad. I was in a really bad place to be honest. Um, and then I really started looking into why I was feeling like that. But the thoughts I were having were so awful and so intrusive and really scary to be honest. So I didn't really talk to anybody about it. Um, I really went into my shell and was just like, you know, if anybody knew that I was feeling this way, I'd probably lose my children or something really awful. Um, so that's when it that's when it really started getting intense. And she's four now, so it's been it's been around six years because my eldest is six. So I I think that's really how long it's been like hard. Um and so yeah, once I started actually looking into it more, I then started hearing about like, oh, maybe you have health anxiety, and maybe that's OCD, and like things have kind of like layered, and it's taken quite a lot of time to actually sort of pinpoint what what it is that's been causing this.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Up to that point, did you have any idea what OCD is? Had you been diagnosed at any point in the past, or was this a shock to you once you finally realized, oh, this is what's been going on?

SPEAKER_04 12:51

Yeah, it was a really big shock because I um I actually remember seeing a girl's Instagram. She was a makeup influencer, so not, you know, not mental health related at all. And she suddenly came on her account and said that she um has OCD, and she started talking about it because she was having a really difficult time with it. And she was like, I um regularly have to turn my car around and make sure I didn't run someone over. And I I remember watching that, like, that's not OCD. Like OCD is when you light things clean. Like that was the first time that I remember thinking, oh my god, I thought maybe I've got OCD. Like that was the first moment, and then I went to see my friend and I spoke to her about it because I was really not okay. She was actually the first person that I admitted to that things were like not quite right with me. And um, I I probably tiptoed round it quite a lot because I again was really worried about what might happen if I told anybody that I was feeling like this, and I said to her at that point, I think I could have OCD, and she said, No, you don't have OCD. OCD is when people like things to be neat, and I'm the messiest person. Like I am not like that. Um, so I really just put that to the back of my mind, to be honest, and I carried on searching for other things that it could be. Um and then I went to a doctor's eventually, and they said at that point, I think, you know, you've definitely got OCD. It wasn't until I really started noticing my physical like compulsions with the body checking and things that um it it made sense then.

SPEAKER_05 14:28

Yeah, it's so important to know what it is that you're dealing with so you can get the proper help. How did you feel when you found out that it was OCD?

SPEAKER_04 14:35

Um, I don't know, to be honest. I think I felt I definitely think I felt relieved, but again, it I think it sort of then opened another box of like, okay, now I need to try and figure this out. Um, because uh up until that point I had just been sort of searching for like an answer of why I was feeling that way. But obviously with OCD, there's no like quick fix. So it wasn't a case of like, oh, your iron's low, here have some tablets. Right. It was um it was just another thing then that I needed to spend some time working out. Um and I am definitely like you, I'm still um, I'm still definitely learning and working out ways to cope with it. Um but yeah, in terms of sorry, going back to your question a minute ago, because I realize I've gone on a complete tangent. Um, I in terms of what actually triggered all of this in the first place, I I still don't really actually know is where I was trying to go with that. Um, yeah, no, but we all don't know.

SPEAKER_05 15:39

And I think I just had this conversation with somebody recently about how sometimes our OCD can latch onto the investigative part of wanting to figure out why we have it to fix it rather than yeah, just accepting that it's there and then and then working on it from that point.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

You've explained some of the body checking that you were doing. What were some of your other symptoms? What was some of the other stuff going on when you were, you know, in your worst place with it?

SPEAKER_04 16:05

Yeah. Um, so lots of lots of it is um around illness and germs and um, you know, being clean and washing my hands, and like there's a lot of things that I've just always thought is just me not liking dirt. Like, you know? Um but the more I've sort of noticed that about myself, the more I notice that it's actually quite intense. Like when I feel I need to wash my hands, it's like I can feel a physical layer of dirt on my hands. Like I can't even explain it, you either understand or or you won't. It's like a physical layer of like thick dirt on my hands that I need to wash off. Um, and I think that with with with all of it actually, with anything that's um in the OCD categories, all of it is so consuming. So whenever I'm feeling any kind of way about it, whether it be like something physical or like a thought that I can't let go, um, it's all I can think about. Like it's it takes over completely. So there's nothing else I can do until I've done that. Um and I also really find things difficult, like um what we were saying about, you know, um making plans and the way that I'm my actions and my choices, decisions are gonna have an impact. So any kind of decision I have to make is I find really difficult when when I'm in the thick of it. Um, you know, even for work, I'm a photographer. So booking in photo shoots with clients, they have to choose the day. I can't. I physically can't. If they start asking me, well, I could do this day or this day, so you choose, I'm like, no, no, you let me know what day. Because as soon as I have to choose it, I'm like, yeah, but what if I should have chosen that other day?

unknown 17:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:59

And it's like a whole yep.

SPEAKER_05 18:00

And you and I connected on that piece. I shared a little bit on our story about I'm in the thick of a move and we might move out of state, we might move down the street. Those are huge differences, and I'm responsible for the outcome. So if we move to Kansas and my son gets killed in a car accident in Kansas, that's my fault. And we we can go on and on, and there's layers to that, whether you believe in God and and all the things, but at the at the core of that is our OCD that is irrational, right? That's it's it's whatever magical thinking, whatever it is, that is our OCD. So recognizing it in those moments that that is your OCD, I would guess that a therapist would say, in that moment, you have to pick a date. You have to pick the date, and you have to be okay with that date, and you have to stick with that date, right? That's the exposure part. Um, and I spoke with somebody about that recently on the podcast, and he was like, I would tell you that you you have to move. I mean, you have to move, you have to pick, obviously, I have to, but in those moments, it feels absolutely physically debilitating and will run your day. And and shutting that off isn't it it feels impossible, but you know, the exposure part is just picking that day and moving forward with that. Have you been able to do that?

SPEAKER_04 19:16

Yeah, I have been. Um, and to it does always, I mean, it's always fine. Like I always go to photo shoot, come back, and I'm fine. Like it's all okay. Um, but it doesn't, it doesn't um help the next time yet. Um, I think I definitely have got better though. It used to, I used to be even like taking the bin out, I would be like, no, I I what I need to go in like maybe 10 minutes or like 20 minutes. Like it used to be that intense. So I can recognize that there has been like an improvement there. Like I can take the bin out whenever I need to take the bin out now. Um but yeah, it's it's a strange thing. Like it's it can show up when you're least expecting it. And I think that the the thing is with it is that I because I am still learning, I don't always know when it is OCD and when it's not. So I'm also trying to figure out like how do I tell the difference between that? Because the lines can be so blurred. Um, another example is like I I was in a supermarket. I um was saying at the beginning, I live in quite a small place, so you know nothing really happens here. I was in a supermarket and um I got it in my head that it was gonna explode. Like I just got it in my head that was gonna happen. And I was like, right, calm down, do the food shopping, everything is fine. Like there was literally nothing to make me feel like that was happening at all. And the feeling just got too real, and I had I had to just abandon my shopping and leave. And I got back to the car and my partner was like, Where's the food shopping? I was like, we have to go home.

SPEAKER_05 20:52

And when we got home, I can relate. I get it. I've done that with shootings, especially if there's a lot of that happening around me. I I've done the same thing. I've left a store before because I was convinced there was going to be a mass shooting.

SPEAKER_04 21:04

Right. And it feels so real in the moment. Like at the time, I really felt like, you know, if I stay here, I'm just being stupid because I know that this is about to happen. So I need to leave. But obviously, it's not about to happen. It's just like playing out in my head.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

And so you got back into the car, your partner says, Where's the food? You say, I how do you explain it to your partner in that moment? Are you open about what's happening? Or are you masking it and going, Oh, I have to go to the bathroom, or the wh how are you handling it with your partner?

SPEAKER_04 21:36

Yeah, I am open about it now. Um, but we've been together almost 10 years, and it hasn't always been that way. I have, I definitely hid a lot for a long time. Um, and he's one of the only people that I would, you know, say that to. I would definitely say, Oh, I forgot my purse, or for you know, whatever reason I might not have been able to get the food shopping. Um Um, but yeah, I do tell him now and he just sort of rolls his eyes and then goes and does it himself.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Did he end up going to get the food?

SPEAKER_04 22:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

So so now in therapy, I would imagine your therapist would say, You've got to stay, or you've got to go back and you've got to do the food shopping. Is that the type of therapy you're in right now? Or how's that going for you?

SPEAKER_04 22:24

Yeah, that's definitely what would be said. But I just right now I'm just at the place where I can't tell the difference between an OCD thought and something that's actually happening and like just my my uh gut kicking in and being like, we need to just leave now. Like I can't tell the difference between that. So I do definitely try and stay longer now. Um, because you know, when it first started a few years ago, I would have left in a second. I wouldn't even thought have thought about it. I wouldn't have even tried to stick it out, I wouldn't have even thought about could this actually be not real? Um I yeah, I I would have just left it straight away. So I do definitely try to stay longer and take a breath in the situation, remind myself that I'm safe and that actually nothing is gonna happen. Um, but I'm still definitely not at the point where I can 100% trust that enough to risk being wrong.

SPEAKER_05 23:26

Yeah, it's trust. Trust is a huge word when it comes to OCD because you do have to trust the unknown and try to figure out, you know, what is this gut-related stuff telling me that women are told so often that we have a strong intuition. You're like, okay, is this my intuition speaking up? Or is this my fear and OCD that's gotten a hold of it? And you build this identity around the OCD. And, you know, if if if we are a byproduct of our thoughts and our actions, then of course it's gonna change your personality. We're responding to a thought that isn't true. So therefore, when you when you're able to say, okay, this is my OCD showing up, how am I going to respond now? Because I used to always respond this way. Now I have to respond a different way. I don't even know what to do with myself. Okay, I guess I'm gonna stay here and fight through this really uncomfortable feeling that feels like I'm going to die. Right. And then hopefully this gets better. And then you slowly build that trust. But it it feels impossible in those moments. We'll be right back. But first, a message from our sponsors.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

The same distressing, unwanted thoughts keep playing over and over in your mind. The same rituals keep eating up your time, holding you back from enjoying your life. You've tried talk therapy before and spent session after session diving into those thoughts, trying to understand them, trying to fix them, but somehow they just get worse and the shame piles on because you think, why isn't this working? What's wrong with me? If this sounds familiar, here's what you need to know. You are not the problem. You're experiencing something that a lot of people with OCD experience. Getting your life back is possible because OCD is highly treatable. It just requires a completely different approach than other mental health conditions. In fact, standard talk therapy often makes OCD worse because it encourages you to analyze those intrusive thoughts or try to replace them with positive ones. But with OCD, the more attention you give the thoughts, the stickier they become. That's where no CD comes in. No CD provides virtual therapy designed specifically for OCD. Every single one of their therapists is extensively trained in a type of therapy called ERP, or exposure and response prevention, which is the most effective treatment available for OCD. And they get their training from world-renowned OCD experts so they truly understand what you're dealing with, even the stuff that feels impossible to say out loud. In live, face-to-face virtual sessions, your No CD therapist will teach you how to take the power away from intrusive thoughts so you can live the life you want to live. In between sessions, you'll be able to message your therapist anytime, join dozens of live support groups, and continue your progress with other expert-developed therapy tools. No CD is also covered by insurance for over 138 million Americans, and their team makes it really simple to get started. Visit nocd.com and book a free 15-minute call. That's NOCD.com to learn more and talk to someone who can help because you deserve treatment that actually works for OCD. And now back to our show. You've got this sort of magical thinking stuff where you think you know, you get this sensation in the store that there's going to be an explosion. I got to get out of here. You have that. And then the health OCD stuff is really interesting to me. Have you been to the hospital a fair amount or going to the doctor a fair amount to tell them, hey, I think I have this, I think I have that. To that extent?

SPEAKER_04 27:05

Yeah, it's been a nightmare, honestly. I have spent so long. Actually, in particular, before I knew why I was doing it. Right. I think I think the problem is, here we go. I think the problem is that on social media a lot, you see all of these horror stories that we're actually as a population never supposed to see, right? We're not actually made to see this much stuff and to consume this much stuff, but we do because we have access to it. And we see the stuff that is um super rare because they're the stories that get pushed. So then the more we see them, they become less rare. And in these stories, I feel that there's always a really common factor, and that is something along the lines of I knew that I had this, the doctors were wrong, the doctors missed it. Um, you know, I had a gut feeling, trust your gut, you always know they you know your body, they don't. Like there's all of this stuff, which I suppose is true to that situation, but we don't see all of the hundreds and thousands case of cases where things have been caught and have been solved and the people are now recovered. And in a lot of my therapy, we've spoken about this because um going back a little um backwards a little bit to when we were talking about where this came from, the only thing that I can link back to is that my um mum and my dad both lost their mums when they were young children. So I've never had a grandparent growing up and like a grandmother growing up. Um, and I think that I have a like a deep-rooted belief that mums die. And I've spoken about this a little bit on my Instagram um because that's just what I've grown up seeing. You know, I've I've built up proof of that happening. And then, you know, Disney films, like this is another one. I'm so particular about the girl, what my children watch, because Disney films, the mum has always died, it's always a princess and a and a dad, and the dad is like this sad man, and he gets his stepmom, and it's this whole thing that I have built as like proof, right? So when I first when I first started therapy for this, I was talking to her about all of this, and I'm actually impressed that I can say this stuff and not cry now because I used to not even be able to say that out loud without crying. Like it was a really, really deep like trigger point for me. And where was I going with this? Oh, yeah. So I was saying to her that this is like what I've built up as this is a fact. Like, once you're a mum, you're more vulnerable. It's not true, but that's what I, you know, that's the fact I have in my head. And she said to me, and it's it's something I try really hard to hold on to. She was like, How many of your friends have their mums? And how many of your friends have their grandmothers? And how many people do you see in the streets that are mums? Like, how many mums are there that are alive? And this is something that I think we have to like try so hard when, you know, not necessarily this, I know this is a thing that is a me thing, but whatever our beliefs are that we have convinced ourselves are factual, we have to try so hard to like retune our brains into seeing it as not the facts. Like that's not the truth. It's it's a sad situation that has happened to my family, but it's not it's not because they were mums, it's just something that happened. And um, you know, there are lots of mums that are alive, and we I I definitely need to learn that as a fact. So, going back to your point, what you were asking about with um the health, like I definitely have had to stop seeing that stuff and believing it as fact, like factual information and try really hard to start seeing all of the things that you know, like people do get better from cancer now, and people do get better from these illnesses, and most people don't even have these really, really rare illnesses because that's why they're really, really rare. So, um I love that.

SPEAKER_05 31:18

I do think it's really sorry, I do think it's really important for people if they're in therapy or you're in the thick of your um journey of OCD to stay off of social media for a while. Scrolling and consuming and absorbing all of that energy and information is is not going to help us because, like you said, we lose sight of our own reality and we try to base other people's experiences as our own, right? And we take, we energetically take that in and say, well, if it happened to them, it can happen to us. Well, yeah, that is life. But when you have OCD and you truly believe that that's the reason why, it's not gonna help. It's it's not gonna help. So I know from my own experience that taking a breather, especially when you're feeling it and you're in the thick of it, is huge. Stop scrolling.

SPEAKER_04 32:06

And I think that's um another thing that comes up really often for me with like the health anxiety and the health OCD side of things is um a lot of like reassurance seeking. So that's where my um physical like uh checking compulsions come in. And I'm like constantly checking, in particular my breasts, I'm absolutely obsessed with making sure there's nothing new there. Um, and I built up this like foundation of if I check every day, then I'll be fine because you know, they're always saying that if you catch something early, it's more treatable. So I'm like, right, well, I'm gonna catch it on day one then. Like, you know, that's it, that's what I'm telling myself I'm doing. But it definitely has become something that I am like, I no longer trust myself to not get that wrong. So I will like check and then I'll be like, wait, no, just one more time. And I'll literally go over and over and over again. And I've been to the doctors for scans and I've had like bruises where I've been checking so hard, and I'm like, the doctors will say to me, You you shouldn't check that hard because where you're pressing so hard, you're actually like causing lumps in the breast tissue. So then you're gonna notice, you're gonna notice more stuff. Like I I basically have just got myself into complete like cycles, and it even it even works the other way with that, where like I'll so for example, um, in November I did find what I thought was a new lump. Um, I've had it checked and it was breast tissue, so it was fine. But um, I straight away, like literally within an hour, was like, I'm gonna die. This is it. I'm gonna die. I've found this lump. I'm gonna get diagnosed. It's two months before Christmas. My daughter's birthday's coming up. I'm probably not gonna be here. They're gonna tell me I've got two weeks to live. And I was just completely like, there was no getting me out of it. There was no talking any sense to me. That was the result that I had already like, you know, that was it. That was what was gonna happen. To the point where I actually didn't go to the doctors because I was like, I if I go to the doctors, that's what they're gonna tell me. If I don't go to the doctors, they can't tell me that, so it's not happening. So then I got into this whole like cycle of like, you know, if I think about this happening enough, then that's it's gonna happen. But then I was thinking about it, so I couldn't stop it from happening. And honestly, it's like a whole cycle then. Yeah, exactly. It's confusing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Um wait, so though I had a couple of thoughts based on that. One is that yes, if you give OCD an inch, it takes a mile, right? Which is you give into the compulsion, you check your breasts, you go, okay, I'm relieved. And then five minutes later you go, yeah, but did I miss this one spot? Let me go check that out and then it just it builds on itself. So I'm curious when you finally did show back up to the doctor to have that checked, and thank God it turns out it was just breast tissue. Are are they aware of your OCD when you're showing up? And are they kind of rolling their eyes like, oh, here comes Rachel again with some other health issue? Or how are they re how are how are they responding to it and to what extent are they aware of your situation?

SPEAKER_04 35:28

Yeah, so when I went to the doctor's, um, which is where I had to go first, um, I went there three times before I actually went for a scan um about the same thing in my breast. And all three times she said it looked absolutely fine, felt absolutely fine. And I just couldn't take her word for it at all. And um, so yeah, I did the when I went back the third time, I did feel like she was being a little bit like, oh, here we go again.

SPEAKER_05 35:59

Normally just send them your diagnosis papers from your therapist and say, I have OCD, if I can get them, tell me your book.

SPEAKER_04 36:07

Yeah, that's it. But it's a really tricky thing, right? Because this actually weirdly plays into it even more. So I'll actually tell them that I have health anxiety as a little bit of like a I want to protect myself, I don't want you to think that I'm a joke. Like, I you know, I want you to understand why I'm feeling this way. But then I'm like, okay, but I've told them that I've got this, so they're probably not gonna take me seriously, so they're probably not gonna check properly, and then that actually feeds my feeling of I can't trust you to have done this properly. Um when I went through it.

SPEAKER_05 36:43

Yeah, it's got a moment of rational thinking of being honest with it and up front and confronting your OCD, but then your OCD doubted your honesty, and then it became this whole loop of like distrust within yourself.

SPEAKER_04 36:56

Yeah, it's a whole cycle, like it goes round and round and round in circles to the point where I actually don't know what the truth is because I've gone round so many times I can't like find a way out of that.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Um makes you crazy, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:12

Yeah, when I went for the scan, um, you know, I've had them before, and she was like, she she scanned the one that I was worried about, and I was like, Are you not gonna scan the other one? She was like, Well, no, because you're not worried about that one. And I was like, I need you to scan the other one. And she was like, Well, I can, but this isn't routine. Like, we don't normally do that. And I was like, I know, but if you don't, then you're gonna get home and I'm probably gonna be back here again next week about the other one because because you didn't scan it. Not because there's something wrong, but just because I'll have convinced myself that it there is something wrong because you didn't scan it.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

You should just get a mammogram in your house. Just get a machine.

SPEAKER_05 37:50

Oh, yeah. No, that is perpetuating the issue. We need her to stop scanning. She's not gonna get it. Just be sat here all the time.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Were there other health issues popping up for you that or has it just been focused on breast cancer? Is there other stuff that you're worried you have?

SPEAKER_04 38:13

Um, so the breast cancer one is really, really uh consistent. It's the thing that I worry about all the time, most days. Um, I it's where I check. Like that's that's where I check all the time. Um, so that one is definitely most consistent, but if I see someone on Instagram has got like something I've never even heard of, I convince myself that I've got that. Um I do I do go and get my moles checked often. Um I wear sun cream way, way more often than I should wear it. I mean, I actually think that's a good thing, but um I do wear it not for the right reasons. I wear I wear it because I'm convinced if I don't wear it, you know, what the outcome is gonna be. Um so yeah, cancer is definitely like a really, really big one for me. But like I say, if I see anyone that's got anything, I um yeah, I can very easily convince myself of that.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

When you were a kid, did you uh I asked this for my own edification. Did you worry that everything was contagious? I mean, obviously some things are contagious, but I would worry that if I walked by a person with a certain disorder, and I feel horrible saying this, and it wasn't that I in any way judged them or thought they were less than or whatever, but if I walked by a person with a certain disorder or some sort of a palsy, I would think that I was going to get it. And then I'd be convinced and be like, Who's gonna tell him?

SPEAKER_05 39:50

Who's gonna tell him?

SPEAKER_01 39:54

Well, like Alicia Alicia has Alicia has heard this one before, but when I was a kid, it was at the height of the AIDS crisis, at least in America. Um, and I remember hearing the story of both Magic Johnson getting HIV and then Freddie Mercury getting AIDS and dying. And those were two people that I had idolized at the time. I loved Queen and I loved Magic Johnson. And so I just was so focused on that, and I believed that I was either going to get AIDS or had AIDS. And anytime anything would prick me, like, you know, a little paper clip or something in school or a clothespin would prick me, I was convinced that I had AIDS. And I remember taking uh having my mom take me to the doctor at like nine years old to be checked for AIDS. And the doctor was like, What do you think did you have AIDS? And I was like, Well, there was a paper clip that one time kind of scraped my finger, and I'm pretty sure so I totally relate to the health thing, and then it you're absolutely right that it it carries this shame with it because somewhere in there you know that it's illogical, but you are seeking the relief that the visit to the doctor to confirm you in fact don't have this thing will bring, and you're searching for that certainty. Um, I became convinced we've talked about this a bunch on the show back when James Vanderbeek died so sadly of colon cancer. I became convinced that I have colon cancer. Um I have I have had multiple checks now for that. And um I I'm wondering where you are with it now. Now that you are aware of it, I can look at mine with a bit more humor now, as you can see, and recognize that even if I still give into it sometimes, I know that it's kind of silly. But where are you with it now? Like how many times during the course of this have you been checking yourself, for instance? I haven't noticed any.

unknown 41:57

No.

SPEAKER_04 41:57

Although the camera is called the camera's up here. Um yeah, no, I completely relate to this. And actually, um I I think I can go a step further. I don't know if you do this as well or used to do this, where I even couldn't that I mean, this is awful and I I do feel guilt around it, but that you know, you would see campaigns and things like trying to raise money for someone who desperately needs some treatment. And I I couldn't even like engage with that post on Instagram or like comment on it or even like it because I somehow thought that if I did that, that was gonna result in me getting the illness. Like I was I was almost like it's contagious through the screen, and it's not even something that's in that's contagious, but like had somehow even having that like any connection whatsoever, yes.

SPEAKER_05 42:52

Any connection meant that I was now more susceptible to that happening to me. So sometimes I wouldn't even finish reading sentences when they started. Like if I knew, like, oh, my son pests, I was like, Yay bye. No, if I read that, then it's probably gonna happen to me because why am I being shown this? Is that a sign?

SPEAKER_04 43:11

Yeah, and same with like TV programs or um adverts. Adverts were the worst for me, like TV adverts. Like, if there's something awful that comes on, I have I'm turning it off. I can't even watch it because I'm straight away like that's gonna happen to me. Cheers. Now I've seen it, it's gonna happen to me. So um, yeah, I definitely, definitely feel that. And um, I don't know where I'm at with it if I'm being honest. I avoid it a lot. Um, I mean, I'm having a conversation with you guys right now about cancer, and I think I'm okay. So that's a big step in the right direction because that wouldn't have happened um a few years ago. Actually, a few, even a few months ago, to be honest, because I was right back where I started in January. Um So I think that that is definitely better, but on social media I um I have all of that kind of stuff uh blocked on my account. So I don't I don't see anything like that. Um I have a lot of like keywords on my account, so if any post involves anything like that, I don't see it.

SPEAKER_05 44:19

Um I remember a period, you guys, of going when you're in the thick of it. I remember doing this and I don't do it as much. I just realized it, where my fear of my kids dying. Now I don't go that route, right? Like I I avoid it and move on. But I used to dive so deep into it to feel it as if it were happening, almost to I don't it was like I had to know how. I would look up who was involved and where. Why did I feel the need to know all that? I remember getting myself so worked up, crying, any story that I would hear about some kid dying. I was like, I can feel that mother's pain. Am I just empathetic or am I obsessed with this whole idea? And I would put myself in those situations on purpose. Do you guys know what I'm talking about? Do you or anyone else?

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Yeah, absolutely. I I think probably No, I think it was probably twofold. I think one, you were preparing for the possibility that that could happen to you, and you wanted to somehow defend against it by experiencing it. Like if this ends up happening, I'll know what this feels like, and I'll in some way prepared.

SPEAKER_05 45:36

You're almost like prepare. Yeah. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 45:38

I mean, I think the other thing you were probably doing is was searching for evidence that that wouldn't happen to you. Like, oh, well, that person was driving drunk, or that person was drunk.

SPEAKER_05 45:49

I was looking, yes, and you look for one tiny little piece of oh, they were high when they were driving. Okay, I don't do that. Okay. I'm I'm like free of that happening. You look for anything, but yeah. And then you know, real life instances and unfortunate circumstances happen every single day, and then those happen and just reassure that our point was true. So then you're stuck in this constant cycle of like, see, told you so, versus that's the one percent chance that happened to somebody. So OCD sucks.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Rachel, have you found that the health OCD stuff has ever kind of uh navigated over to your kids? Like do you have any obsessions about their health? Are you watching for stuff that might be wrong with them? Has that happened to you?

SPEAKER_04 46:45

Yeah, I'm actually not so bad with my kids, which I honestly am so grateful for because it's stressful enough when it's with myself and um I can't imagine that with the same the same with them. Um I I do think that I'm maybe more wary of things than perhaps somebody else would be. So um, you know, if they have any kind of illness like a cold, I fully believe that it's something really bad, but I definitely don't um I don't check them or um yeah, I I'm not I'm not so bad with them. Um it definitely my thing is definitely like linked with mums. Um so it for me it's a fear of not being here for them and like you know them not having me. And I actually the same as what you were just saying a minute ago, like I have played those scenarios out so deeply. Like I've imagined their weddings with me not there, I've imagined like so many things. Yeah, like funeral all the time. Yeah, I've all the time, like all the time. And when it's when it's really bad or has been really bad, I've I've like felt those things as if they were real. Like I've I've been heartbroken. Uh really you've been at your own funerals in your head.

SPEAKER_05 48:13

Yeah, yeah. I've sort of myself and I'm like, that's the outfit they chose to put me in. It's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_04 48:23

Um yeah, so no, I luckily haven't really, it hasn't really transferred to them. Um the only thing that I am a little bit aware of is that um my youngest is definitely aware of my OCD. She um she has said things. I mean, she's four, so she says them in kind of like passing comments, but I have noticed that she has started picking up on things, so like she smells her hands a lot. Um, and I've noticed these things, and I'm like, oh God, I do that. And I think that once once they start doing things, you as somebody with OCD become a lot more aware of the things that you maybe didn't even know you were doing. Um they mean with you.

SPEAKER_02 49:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:09

Yeah. Um, so yeah, I am I am aware of that, and I really hope that it doesn't end up affecting them. Um and I'm I'm trying my best to make sure that doesn't happen. But I mean, that's what they see, so it's it's difficult, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 49:24

Why is your kid smelling their hand? To see if it's clean?

SPEAKER_04 49:26

Well, because she does that. I I do it. I um I'm like uh I don't like feeling like my hands are dirty and I smell my hands, like, do I need to wash my hands? So gross, isn't it? When you actually say these things out loud, it's so gross. But yeah, I'll like if I'm um I do have smelling of the um SML skit.

SPEAKER_05 49:51

She puts her hands in her armpits.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

Puts your hands in her armpits and smells them. You should just start going around like that, Rich.

SPEAKER_05 49:58

Like smelling myself. Just ask your daughter to smell mommy's hands.

SPEAKER_04 50:06

Oh God, what is it like? Honestly, why do we have to deal with this?

SPEAKER_05 50:12

It's gonna get better, and it sounds like it already is. Um, yeah. It gets better and better. I think awareness is key, right? Knowing what it is we're struggling with, and there's a name for it, it is so huge. Um, and you're already helping so many people. You created a space online um called Hold Space. Yeah. Um was that hard for you to start opening up about your struggles and what inspired that?

SPEAKER_04 50:38

Yeah, um, I do know it's a really funny thing because I I mean we've spoken about it already. I think social media can be such a dangerous place for people like us. Um, I really do believe that there's a lot of um stuff on there that just shows the positives of people's lives and doesn't show what's really going on. And then I also think there's a lot of catastrophizing that goes on online and you kind of see like the best and the worst, and maybe not just the like mundane normal stuff. Um, and I spent a really long time. Um, I used to work on social media, so I spent a long time trying to show up as this person that was like well put together and you know, just what I thought you should do on social media. Like I, you know, I just that's what I used to do. And yeah, um I eventually just hit a point where I was like, I actually just don't want to do this anymore. I can't keep lying to everyone, like this is not the truth, this is not who I am. Um, and so on New Year's Eve, uh no, New Year's Day this this year, I shared a reel. Um, because I all I always really struggle on any day that is like um of any importance. So uh New Year's Day, Christmas Day, birthdays, Mother's Day, Easter Day, like literally anything that is like a rememberable uh a day worth remembering, um, I struggle with. And New Year's Day is always particularly difficult because I'm always convinced that this is the year I'm gonna die. And so I was I was just in a really bad place. Um, I had basically nosedived right back to where I was a few years ago. And I just had this moment of like, I'm just gonna do a post, I'm gonna put it on Instagram, and I'm gonna literally just tell people that this is what I'm feeling right now. Um, I didn't really even know why I did that. I think I was hoping to for someone to tell me that they felt the same, um, because I didn't know if anyone did, to be honest. Um, and the response I had was insane. Um, the post went viral and I had hundreds of messages. I uh it took days to reply to everybody. And I just had this overwhelming feeling of I can't believe how many people are feeling the same way, but all feel like they are the only ones feeling like that. Um, and that's just been something that's continued to grow as I've shared more and become more vulnerable. And every time I've shared more, I've then felt a little bit braver to then share even more. Um, and as I've done that, it's been really healing for me, to be honest, because I've felt less alone and I've found this community of people who completely understand what's going on in my brain. Um, and uh I just had this feeling of like, I just wish there was a way that I could connect you guys together because it's not about symptom sharing and it's not about um, you know, has anybody else had this? It's just that as somebody with OCD and um I've you know, I've got ADHD, OCD, probably autism, like I've I've got a lot of stuff going on in my head, which has always been there as a child, but I didn't know. So forever I have felt like a complete outcast and I've never understood why. And suddenly by just doing one post on Instagram, I felt like I had thousands of people who were just like me. And I I just I can't stand the thought of anybody feeling like that and feeling alone when I know that they're not alone. Um yeah, I created this space, which it was a challenge to be honest, because I wanted to make sure that it wasn't somewhere that you could go to symptom share because that is not helpful for anybody. Um I wanted to make sure it was a space where people could just be themselves and connect with people who understand. And I wanted to be able to share resources. And I'm, you know, I'm in my I'm on my own journey. I'm not um I'm not a medical professional, I'm not somebody that can give professional advice. Um, all I can do is help people feel less alone with it, and so I created the space where hopefully people do feel less alone, and I've also been able to bring therapists in. Um, we do calls and things where therapists will do sessions for free for the people in the community. Um, and I'm trying to just basically give people access to things that might help. So there's a page in there where people share um like resources that have helped them. So, like books or podcasts or Zoom calls or you know, anything that they've found helpful because I think that so that there is so many, it's so complex, isn't it? What we, you know, even from this conversation, like all three of us have so many different things that we experience with this same condition. And so what helps one person probably doesn't help the next person. So um I think it's just really important to have access to lots of things that might help, and then hopefully eventually find the thing that does.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

How do people find it if they want to be involved?

SPEAKER_04 56:00

Um, I've got it linked on my Instagram and I post about it. Um yeah, I mean, it's it's just an app that people can download and join. Um it, yeah, it's it's quite a small thing at the moment. It's just a community that I'm trying to grow because I think that, you know, if you're feeling like this, it can feel so lonely even in your own home. If you're not, you know, if you're not in a position, I definitely wouldn't feel comfortable just talking to, you know, a group of my friends about it. Because to be honest with you, like when I'm out with my friends, I just want to have a good time. I don't want to start talking about all of this stuff. Um, so I think it's nice to just have somewhere that you can connect with people that are um feeling the same.

SPEAKER_05 56:42

I realized the other day that I don't know how to think before I talk. Like I I I don't know, I didn't know that that was something people did. I don't think just come out. I just it just comes out and I say things or I have an idea and I blurred it out without really thinking it through. There's a lot to how I operate that made me feel very alone and weird and isolated. So what you're doing for this community is so appreciated. I know how I feel when I see your stuff come up. It's amazing. So keep it up. And I appreciate you speaking speaking with us today, and a lot of people do as well.

SPEAKER_04 57:21

Thank you so much. I honestly appreciate it so much. And I think that even just your podcasts and getting this message out is so important. So yeah, thank you. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

Oh, Rachel, we've loved talking with you. And where were you joining us from? It it sounds like the accent is maybe Kentucky.

SPEAKER_04 57:40

Oh no, I'm English.

SPEAKER_01 57:42

Oh, English.

SPEAKER_02 57:43

Are you joking, Leah? Are you kidding?

SPEAKER_01 57:52

I've been waiting to tell that joke the whole time.

SPEAKER_05 57:55

That's like believed him, Rachel.

SPEAKER_04 57:57

I believed you. I believed you.

SPEAKER_05 58:00

I mean, he's a Harvard grad. He better not be thinking that was freaking.

SPEAKER_01 58:05

That's like that joke in uh Dumb and Dumber when he uh when he pulls up. Aspen. No, it well, Aspen when he pulls up to the lady uh in his limo and she's got like an Eastern European accent or something. And he no no, she's got Australia.

SPEAKER_05 58:22

Oh, Austria?

SPEAKER_01 58:24

Yeah, she's from Austria. He goes, where's that accent? And she goes, she goes, uh, Austria. And he goes, Good eye, mate. Put another shrimp on the ball, babe.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

Where in England are you?

SPEAKER_04 58:39

Um I'm in Worcestershire, which is like the middle of England. Um not very much happens here, to be honest. I'd rather be a bit further south by the beach.

SPEAKER_01 58:49

Is that is that where Worcestershire sauce comes from?

SPEAKER_05 58:52

Yes. A sauce we all can't pronounce here in the States, Worcestershire.

SPEAKER_01 58:57

Some say Worcestershire, some say Worcestershire.

SPEAKER_05 59:01

We just say Worcestershire sauce.

SPEAKER_00 59:04

Worcestershire.

SPEAKER_05 59:05

What? Worcestershire?

SPEAKER_04 59:07

I feel like I can't say it now. You guys eat a lot of that sauce there? No, I don't eat it at all. I don't think I've ever eaten it.

SPEAKER_01 59:26

Thanks for listening to another episode of the OCD Confessional. Be sure to follow the show so you get new episodes. You can subscribe to us on YouTube or find us on Instagram and TikTok at the OCD Confessional.