Anah Pignatelli on Relationship OCD & 20 Years of Recovery

In this episode of The OCD Confessional, we're joined by Anah Pignatelli, OCD advocate, educator, and creator of Key to OCD.

For more than 20 years, Anah has navigated OCD in its many forms, including Relationship OCD (ROCD), Sexual Orientation OCD (SO-OCD), and Contamination OCD. Today, she uses her platform to help others understand OCD, break free from shame, and move toward recovery.

Anah shares her personal journey from being consumed by uncertainty and intrusive thoughts to becoming an advocate who helps thousands of people better understand what OCD really is.

In this episode, we discuss:

• What Relationship OCD actually feels like
 • How SO-OCD creates doubt about identity and attraction
 • Contamination OCD and fear-based compulsions
 • Why reassurance keeps OCD alive
 • The role of ERP in recovery
 • Building Key to OCD and finding purpose through advocacy

This conversation is honest, hopeful, and full of practical insights for anyone struggling with intrusive thoughts and uncertainty.

🎧 Listen now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, and everywhere you get your podcasts.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'm Alicia. And I'm Liam. We both have OCD. And instead of spiraling alone, we decided to turn our symptoms into a podcast. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Here we overshare real stories, laugh through the anxiety, and talk to actual experts who can explain why your brain keeps asking, What if I accidentally marry my cousin?

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Whether your thing is hand washing, mental rituals, or just silently panicking during normal conversations, congrats. You have found your people.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

This is a safe place, unless you're an interest of thought. In which case, get in line, buddy. We're booked.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

So grab a weighted blanket, cancel your plans for the fifth time, and let's dive in. This is the OCD Confessional.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

And yes, we did check this recording four times before uploading it. Today we're joined by Anna, known online as Key to OCD, an OCD advocate, educator, and future mental health counselor based in Los Angeles. With more than 20 years of lived experience across multiple OCD subtypes, she uses her platform to raise awareness, challenge misconceptions, and help others feel less alone. Anna is especially passionate about topics like relationship OCD, and this year she'll be sharing her story as a speaker at OCDCon. We're excited to hear about her journey and the impact she's making in the OCD community. Welcome, Anna, to the OCD Confessional.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

This is so fun. We can't wait to dive in with you. So I know you've heard a few of the episodes. What is your OCD confession?

SPEAKER_01 1:31

So my OCD confession is that I used to, when OCD was at its peak for me, I used to stay up until three or four in the morning doing physical compulsions such as checking. But one that I can kind of laugh about now is that I used to um change my pajamas inside out repeatedly because it felt cleaner.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

So wait, so every night you would change them out, or you would change them in and out one night repeatedly.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

I would either completely change pajamas or I would just like wear the same ones but turn them inside out. I would change them about three or four times a night.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

So your laundry bill must have been more.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Well, it was weird because it kind of like reset every night. So it would like it would be like either the next day, it would either be like, oh, it's a new day, it doesn't matter, or it would be like, oh, I remember those ones aren't clean. So I have no idea how my brain came up with this.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

But what about the sheets? How did you deal with the sheets? Were those having to be constantly changed, or that was okay? No, totally fine. So it made perfect sense, in other words.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Yeah, exactly. So we're gonna dive into a uh a few of your subtypes and relationship was a big one for you. When did OCD first show up for you?

SPEAKER_01 2:47

So OCD first showed up with me when I or for me when I was in sixth grade, I want to say. Um it was a lot of contamination OCD. So it was a lot of, you know, like washing my hands until they bled, um, you know, a lot of checking, like I was just saying, um, checking the stove, checking the door, stuff like that. And then eventually, you know, I experienced other subtypes like harm OCD, sexual orientation, but relationship OCD has been the one that stuck the longest. I've had it for about 12 years.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Um this shows up in sixth grade. Yeah. And what do you make of it in that time? Are you diagnosed right away? Are you hiding it? How did that all unfold?

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Right. So I wasn't diagnosed until I was 15, which is 10th grade, I believe. Um I think, you know, to be honest, I was just like suffering so much, and my parents saw it, but I think I kind of accepted that this was how my mind worked. And so my parents put me in therapy and they were like, you know, something's up. Um, and at the time, I mean, this was I'm 32 now, so this was not really a known thing. Like nobody really talked about OCD. And then if they did, it was still, you know, a lot of like about being clean and stuff. So I personally never suspected that I had OCD. I think it was just like a probably an extreme anxiety disorder. Um, but my parents put me in therapy and she pretty instantly was like, you have severe OCD. Um and for me, it kind of just made sense. Like I was glad that it was something, you know, because it's just so extreme. And I was coming home from from school every day just so stressed out and constantly sleeping in bed.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

And tired from changing your pajamas till three in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Poor thing.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

I miss those days because like I'm 32 now and like I'm exhausted just by getting a full 10 hours of sleep. Like I used to thrive in high school because I was sleeping for like three hours and be like, yep, let's play, let's play softball, let's have a full day of school. Like it was great.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Oh my gosh. So you get into therapy, and as you say, right away you're diagnosed. Did you go into ERP right away? Did you end up on medication? What was your journey with that?

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Right. So um, no to both. So I had um I realized that looking back now that I know a lot about OCD and like how to treat it, that a lot of my therapy unfortunately involved um the bad kind of talk therapy, which is like getting reassurance and you know, but um, but that's okay. You know, like it's it's something that I I'm very thankful for my therapist, obviously. She's the one that diagnosed me. Um and then in regards to medication, I did not turn to medication right away. Um not really sure why. I think it was just I'm I'm betting that my parents, because I I was still a minor, and I'm betting my parents and I still kind of wanted to like just see if I could get through this on my own. Obviously, there's no shame in medication at all. I'm on medication right now, it's great. But um just to kind of just get a get a glimpse of like how severe it really was and like what resources I really needed before I jumped into that.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Yeah. I mean, I get it. I'm a mom. I don't want to put my kid directly on meds if I don't have to. You you kind of wait and and you know, exhaust all other options prior. But you said you're on medication now. What are you taking?

SPEAKER_01 6:25

I'm taking Prozac. Um, it's took me a very long time to find something that worked, just because, as you guys know, there's a lot of things that have side effects. So, like it might work, but I would be exhausted or, you know, whatever. Um, but this one's working really well in addition to just having the tools that I share online about how to get through OCD is really helping me a lot.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

I love that. And so you get into this talk therapy. You now you know what you have, you're in the talk therapy, but we know that that doesn't work for OCD. So did you get worse? Where did you go from there, from 50 on, you know, what?

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yeah, I got worse. Um, I pretty much, like I said earlier, kept jumping themes. So I would kind of like I guess exhaust a theme and then jump to a new one, and then exhaust a theme and then jump to a new one. And then relationship OCD kind of moved into my mind in 2013-ish, which was when I was in my first relationship. Um, and from there, it's it makes perfect sense why I have relationship OCD because I personally really value a relationship and I want to get married. Um, so of course it's trying to ruin that for me. But um, like I said, that's been pretty much the longest subtype. But yes, it did get very intense during that first relationship. And when I was in college, I I was seeing another counselor that um truly did not understand OCD and kind of kept hinting at me that like maybe you guys should just break up type of thing. But like I knew even though I'm not trying to talk badly about counselors either because I'm a future counselor.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

No, no, highlights have yeah, I mean they just they just don't know.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Yeah. Um but um, you know, eventually I was ashamed to go to counseling because I was afraid to confront her and say, like, hey, we're still together, like, you know, and it was weird because I um I didn't know much about OCD really until three years ago when I started my page. Um, but I like knew that we shouldn't break up.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

So did you know that that was OCD that was showing up for you, or you just were like, oh, this is some other thing that I'm dealing with?

SPEAKER_01 8:41

You know, that's a good question because I think I knew it wasn't me, if that makes sense. I it just felt like a rain cloud above my head, and I'm like, why is this storm still happening? type of thing. I knew I wanted to be with this person, so like why is this happening? And then when I did eventually, I did eventually give into the compulsion of breaking up with them because I felt that that's how I could get freedom. And um it's not what I wanted.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

So you were diagnosed at the time though. Did you tell him that I have OCD, even though you didn't connect the dots that relationship OCD was a thing?

SPEAKER_01 9:20

I think um I might have, to be honest. I it wasn't I don't think, like you said, I don't think I really connected the dots as silly as that sounds, just because people weren't talking about OCD as much, and I I think I just thought I was depressed.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

How was it showing up in the relationship? Give us some examples of of some things that stood out.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

It was a lot of um just like overthinking literally everything, everything I did, everything they did and said, um, and then just mostly questioning should we be together or not? Period. So like we would plan um, like the following week would be Thanksgiving, and we would plan to see each other because we were in college and we're both um from we we're in the same hometown. And um my mind would be like, yeah, if you guys make it that far, and it's like it's literally a week away. You know what I mean? So it's constantly the urge to break up, basically.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Wow. Yeah, my we talked a fair amount about my relationship OCD on here. Alicia's had some of this too. Mine tends to manifest more as a fear that my wife is going to leave me and that I'm not good enough for her. I know our OCD can work in in both directions. It sounds like for you, the fear was it was much more about questions about whether or not you should be with this person. Is this, you know, looking for signs that you're not meant to be together or that there's something wrong with this person, something you don't love them enough. All that it sounds like it was more that. Did it ever work that other way where you were worried they might leave me? You know?

SPEAKER_01 11:02

No, because um, again, this is bad for OCD, as you guys know. But then in my next serious relationship, um, he reassured me a lot. And it just it wasn't even necessarily related to OCD. I just felt so um, I just felt so secure with him. Um but yeah, no, it's it's it's exactly what you just subscribed. What exactly what you just described? It's um it's so much like latching onto anything that they show me that I may not like or something that maybe my friends might not accept about them. I would be like, oh my gosh, am I doing the wrong am I doing the right thing? Like even just just tiny things, things that literally I know don't matter. Um, because we all have our sports.

SPEAKER_02 11:44

But was your OCD showing up in other areas at the same time you're dealing with relationship OCD? I'm always curious about how our themes change and latch on and why. You know, why for some people it's a longer period of of obsession? Like I d I had relationship OCD with Spence for a long time prior to being diagnosed, and it was hell. It was hell. You were just like, you you know you love this person, but you are just questioning everything about it. It is beyond challenging. But that I don't have that anymore. And I'm wondering, do you just does it get to a place where you just exhaust it so bad where you're like, I I physically can't, I mean, I'm married. I'm married, I'm not gonna get divorced. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna divorce him. You could I mean I no, but I mean at the time, you know, we it wasn't like that was an option in my head. So we both just we we we battled through it, but I'm just wondering at what point does it move on? I didn't know I had OCD, so it wasn't like I was exposing myself and in therapy, but it just ended. Do you guys have any insight onto why these themes just end and why they latch on to other areas? And I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

So, like I said, for me personally, when I I tend to jump themes when I kind of get over one. So, for example, I'm not in a relationship right now. So, of course I'm not having relationship OCD. I mean, obviously, I know you can have it with your friends and stuff like that, but sure, I will say, um, I recently adopted a dog and I have been having relationship OCD with him in regards to um, which sounds funny because you think of romantic relationships, right? But um, but just in regards to like would he have a better life with someone else and you know, some I doing enough. Am I a good pet mom? Am I yeah, I can relate to that too. Yeah, that one's like. Well, it's just interesting. It depends on the situation I'm in.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

Um, but you know, does he reassure you?

SPEAKER_01 13:52

He does, yeah. Lots of kisses. Yeah, lots of kisses and and cuddles, I'm sure. I've wanted a dog more than anything. And it's again, it's like OCD is trying to ruin the things that you care about the most. So it makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 14:06

So knowing that ERP is is effective, what do you do in those moments when your OCD shows up with your dog? What's your dog's name? Queso. Queso, okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Um, so luckily I've been really good about practicing noticing when I have like an OCD thought or feeling. Um, for example, he when I first got him, he had separation anxiety. And so that was really hard because that was when I had a lot of feelings or questions about like, would he be better in a different home where maybe someone doesn't go to work, or um, would he be better with another dog? You know, stuff like that. So um, so he um, you know, it it was hard for me to leave him too because it would make me panic.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

That one's called ARF O C D is the He's been Liam's been waiting to share that for a long time, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Like I kept trying to get that in there. Totally worth the wait. Totally worth the wait. Um, have you been able to? So you said you've had a few relationships where the ROCD really affected you, and now even with your dog. Um have you been able to form a relationship where it's not as loud and been able to sustain it through ERP and knowing what you're going through, or is this still a battle for you?

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Yeah, so um I think both to an extent. You know, like I said, like with all the tools that I share online and that I'm learning myself, I'm I'm in grad school to become a counselor. Um I am able to recognize OCD more. And I I know that, you know, the more that you entertain it, the more you get sucked into it. And that's the more that you feel like you're trapped. Um, so I think, you know, for me, that's just the biggest thing is trying to tackle it before it tackles me. If that makes sense. Um and, you know, really just trying to utilize those tools because once it I have to I have to be better about recognizing that like once I'm fully in its reins that it's not me and I need to just kind of relax. And you know, it's hard, as you guys know. It's hard to not give in to compulsions and it's hard to, you know, not confess and stuff like that. So I just feel it's a mix, you know. Like I'm I'm still um getting through things and you know, trying to just go with my values every day.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

What made you decide to start sharing publicly?

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Yeah, so to be honest, rock bottom for me was in that relationship in 2013. Um, I was just like severely depressed and just felt so trapped. And like I said, I did unfortunately give into the compulsion of breaking up with him and it was terrible. I was devastated.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

But did you tell him why? What was your reasoning for ending that?

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Yeah, I mean, I didn't tell him it was OCD because again, I didn't really put the two pieces together as silly as that might sound, but he knew like every time we would FaceTime because we were long distance, I would just be crying the whole time, basically. Yeah. Um, so he knew. He knew.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Yeah, it's tough when your relationship starts to become about your relationship. I had many of those where it was a lot of tears. And I'm like, I don't know why I'm so like sad and questioning this so much. And is this supposed to be enjoyable or is this supposed to be a lesson? Because we're in our 20s and they're all like this, you know? It's it's tough. You're like, how much of this is supposed to be um hard?

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Yeah, no, exactly. And it's like it's it's so interesting too, because like my last relationship, like he was amazing and like we're still good friends, and he was so good to me. But like you find a way to find these flaws and dwell on them, and then that makes you feel worse because you're like, I know they're a good person.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

This is where my OCD gets tricky, where I think, okay, my OCD ended it with him. But was that supposed to happen? Or right? Like now you add another layer of had I known I had OCD, maybe he was the one. Maybe I should have stayed with him. But no, it was supposed to happen the way it did. And then you go down this spiral of like, is that magical thinking?

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Yep. That is the story of my life. Like, very much my I get nervous about making decisions, and it's not little decisions like what am I gonna have for dinner, but it's big ones like um, you know, where am I gonna go to college and like who am I gonna spend the rest of my life with type of thing that feels very heavy for me. And so, yes, I feel that way all the time of like, what if there's one and I break up with them?

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Yeah, it's like our minds don't have a stopping point. It's like we look so far into the future that it can be a blessing and some sometimes, sometimes. But most of the time, it's like our thoughts can go so far, so fast and so deep that sometimes I'm like, I is this a cur like, are we just cursed people that can like see too much? Are we just like these like you know, like we're good people, but I also sometimes am like uh maybe I'm maybe I'm not. Maybe our brains are cursed and we're we're Alicia is wondering, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

She is wondering if she is a seer. You know, the old uh you know, Viking tradition of being a seer. She might see into the future. Alicia has had a thing for a while where she feels like she might be psychic, and I was like, no, that's just OCD.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

Um because like five out of ten times, 50% of the time I would be right with my predictions, but really it was like my hypervigilance trying to protect me from scenarios so I would guess what would happen. And then half the time I was right, and I was like, see, I'm a psychic.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

The other half you just disregarded.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

That's how we've got to be.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

I had business cards made. I'm like, let me read your palm, you know. We'll be right back. But first, a message from our sponsor. The same distressing, unwanted thoughts keep playing over and over in your mind. The same rituals keep eating up your time, holding you back from enjoying your life. You've tried talk therapy before and spent session after session diving into those thoughts, trying to understand them, trying to fix them, but somehow they just get worse. And the shame piles on because you think, why isn't this working? What's wrong with me? If this sounds familiar, here's what you need to know. You're not the problem. You're experiencing something that a lot of people with OCD experience. Getting your life back is possible because OCD is highly treatable. It just requires a completely different approach than other mental health conditions. In fact, standard talk therapy often makes OCD worse because it encourages you to analyze those intrusive thoughts or try to replace them with positive ones. But with OCD, the more attention you give the thoughts, the stickier they become. That's where No C D comes in. No CD provides virtual therapy designed specifically for OCD. Every single one of their therapists is extensively trained in a type of therapy called ERP, or exposure and response prevention, which is the most effective treatment available for OCD. And they get the training from world-renowned OCD experts so they truly understand what you're dealing with, even the stuff that feels impossible to say out loud. In live face-to-face virtual sessions, your No CD therapist will teach you how to take the power away from intrusive thoughts so you can live the life that you want to live. In between sessions, you'll be able to message your therapist anytime, join dozens of life support groups, and continue your progress with other expert developed therapy tools. No CD is also covered by insurance for over 138 million Americans, and their team makes it really simple to get started. Visit nocd.com and book a free 15 minute call. That's no cd.com to learn more and talk to someone who can help because you deserve treatment that actually works. For OCD.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Well, I did want to ask with the relationship OCD stuff, you're talking about how you're trying to get better at recognizing, okay, that's an intrusive thought. That's my OCD talking to me. Do you struggle with distinguishing between those two at times? Because I think that's kind of like the final battle of OCD is building that trust back in yourself that you can identify the difference between this is a valid fear and I should actually attend to this versus this is my OCD talking and I need to just let it be. How are you doing with that?

SPEAKER_01 22:37

That's a really good question. So I read something recently that says that you should you you can treat everything like it's OCD. And so if I get any type of negative thought about a relationship, you know, I can just be like, okay, well, if that's me, like I'll figure it out or I will I'll I I believe that I would know. Um, you know, like when people say, when you're making a decision and people say go with your gut, I low-key kind of hate that because I'm like, I don't have gut. Um, but I that's kind of the the approach I've taken is like treating everything like it's OCD and just kind of seeing what happens because I do believe that we all do have an intuition. I think that with OCD it can be a little harder to determine. But murky believes that it's there.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Yeah, I agree with you. I think that's the hardest part about once you do find out and you get properly diagnosed, is now going, okay, now now we're in that place of understanding that this could be OCD. So now what? Which direction do we go? You know, but that's that's where the work comes in.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

But it is very, very hard. That is that is my toughest battle for sure. Because it's also a compulsion. I didn't know for the longest time that it's a compulsion trying to decipher between if it's you or OCD. So that's what's like so hard too. It's like someone waving like a piece of candy in front of your face and being like, I want it, I want it.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Yeah, that's a really good point. I I didn't think of that as its own compulsion, but I think you're right that it is, that you could spend your day trying to distinguish between was that OCD or not? Let me analyze that. And then you go back, check your thoughts again. Wow, yeah, that's an interesting thing. Have you seen um a lot of the stuff online? I think it's mostly women posting this of like their icks with their boyfriend or their husband.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

So I wonder how many icks have popped up for you over time where you're like, why did he walk like that? And now I'm no longer attracted to him. Like, oh my God. Do you have icons?

SPEAKER_01 24:34

It's like I love people being real about their relationships and like sharing things like, yeah, it's not gonna be perfect all the time, as opposed to people that say things like, When you know, you know. And like just things that like just are awful to hear when you have OCD.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

Are you in a relationship right now? I'm not. Okay. And where are you at with your OCD, other than the relationship uh with your with uh your dog?

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Um, I'm honestly feeling great. I mean, every day is different, as you guys know. I think it's gonna kind of always be there to an extent. Um, but I've been feeling really good lately. I've been feeling confident. I feel like I kind of needed that reset when I got out of my last relationship. Um luckily that was for other reasons. That wasn't because of OCD.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

Do you believe in freedom over function? What do you mean by that exactly?

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yeah. Do you think that your goal should be just to get to function? Or is your goal to get to full freedom from OCD? You know, I think some people go, all right, through medication and therapy, I've gotten to a point where my life is no longer miserable. I'm I still have the OCD, but I can largely get through my life. That's function. Other people subscribe to this thought that no, if you put in the work, you can get full freedom from OCD. And that should be the goal. So we we like to ask people, you know, are they going for freedom or are they going for function?

SPEAKER_01 25:58

I think what's important is being patient with yourself. You know, it's like depends on what level you're on. Like, for example, um, I feel like I'm 80% of the way there, but um, you know, I have someone that I talk to on my DMs a lot, and she's like at the point where she's afraid to start ERP. So she's pretty much just starting. But it's like it's scary. And I think it's not, it's not necessarily about comparing yourself to other people and being like, oh, I want to be like, I want to feel as free as that person. It's more just like where you're at personally and what's in front of you. So, like for her, for example, I believe that it's you know, starting ERP and getting over that hurdle of her fear of starting ERP. Um, you know, I think that obviously functioning is important. And that's like a huge step because I was at a point in 10th grade where I wasn't functioning. I was, I mean, I was like I was going to school and stuff like that, but I was so unhealthy, like so unhealthy. I was crying every single day. Um so you know, you just being able to function is is a huge step in the right direction, too. But of course, we all want freedom.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

I want to go back to that in 10th grade where you said it was really tough. Um, you had been diagnosed, right, at that point. Yes. In 10th grade. So you're diagnosed with OCD. Again, you know, therapists are still trying to figure out what that is exactly. So you're not an ERP. Your OCD is getting worse. How did that impact your relationships with friends in 10th grade? Those are huge years of, you know, figuring out who you are and socializing and building relationships. How did that affect your your time then?

SPEAKER_01 27:46

You know what's so interesting is I always say, even though OCD was at its worst at this time, I always say I was like my best version of myself in high school, just like not 10th grade, but like senior year, because um I wasn't covering up, covering it up per se. But I feel like because it's so in your head that people didn't know I was really suffering. And I'm not saying that's a good thing. Like I believe that you should share things with with people and not suffer on your own. But um I, you know, at school, it really didn't affect me. And if it did, I was I kind of did do you were masking it? Yeah. And I I kind of I kind of did do my own ERP without knowing it and just being like, hey, I'm at school, I'm too busy for this right now, talk to you later. Um so so, but it really was, it really was significant at home. Like, like I said, between 10 p.m. and 4 a.m. every night. Um, that's when, you know, to this day when my mind slows down or when life's a little slow, like if I have a week off from work, that's when OCD likes to come in the most and be like, I'm back.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Oh wow. Yeah. And is it showing up for you still in some of the other themes? I know you say relationship OCD has really been your main theme for a while, but do you still struggle with the contamination stuff or is it showing up for you in other ways?

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Um, so it's interesting because I've been in situations recently where I'm like, oh my God, my contamination OCD would hate this. Um, thank God I don't have that anymore. Like just like staying in a hotel room. Like, I still don't like it, but um I am not. But you're doing it. You're doing it.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

That's yeah. Yeah. That's huge.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

You bring a black light.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

Oh gosh. I almost bought one of those and I was like, there's no way I'll sleep. You know what? Last night you guys, so we've been seeing spiders in this house. Um, I'll catch you up really quick. We're in a temporary housing, um, not temporary housing, that sounds bad. Where uh it sounds like I said uh sober living for some reason. Um anyway, we're in a we're in a house by the beach and yeah, we're in a halfway house. Um the kids don't know it. I have to tell them soon that um anyway. Delete all that, Liam. Liam, no. Okay, so what am I trying to say here, you guys? Um oh my OCD kicked in last night because um there have been spiders, and I was convinced that they were gonna crawl in my mouth. I didn't sleep at all last night. Well, because Spencer woke up with what on his face, and I hate spiders anyway, and I've just been seeing them anywhere. So my brain convinced me that I was gonna get attacked by them and they were gonna lay eggs in my mouth. And I was like, are is this OCD or is this just normal? This is a normal fear because I've been seeing the spiders. Nobody wants spiders in their mouth, and I couldn't then get out of this loop of like, is this my OCD right now? Go to bed, it's fine. Listen, if a if a spider comes or crawls on my face, I'm gonna be asleep. I'm not gonna know. But I sleep with my mouth open. So I was in the bed and I took the sheet and I covered and I slept so high, I was like sweating.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

That's awful. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Is that OCD? Wait, is that OCD, you guys?

SPEAKER_00 31:08

I well, I would say so. It seems along those lines with like arachnophobia as part of it. You know what your exposure is gonna have to be.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

Sleep uh outside the covers?

unknown 31:19

No.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

Or let an egg lay eggs, let a spider lay. No, I'm not eating a spider.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

That's a pretty intense exposure. I I was gonna say sleeping with your face.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

Imagine. No, you guys, it was awful. I switched beds multiple times. Oh no. I went, I went in my kids' room and then I went back to my bed, but I was like, if I lay here, this is where the spiders were, I'm gonna go back to the other room. Oh gosh. And that's the stuff that the OCD is is like a hidden compulsion, right? And I would have never in a million years thought that was OCD. I would have just thought I was paranoid, but Oh, I know, I know.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

And that's how it's so sneaky, right? Like, I think when you have OCD, you worry overall about like losing control. And so, for example, I don't drink, and I I wouldn't be surprised if that's why. Um I don't know. But I used to I used to be terrified of sleepwalking and like doing something while I sleepwalk that I either don't remember or don't have control over. And uh so I used to put things in front of my door, in front of my bedroom door, so I knew if I would get out. Liam, is this resonate with you?

SPEAKER_00 32:33

I have done that so many times. I worry, I saw a story when I was maybe 14 or 15. You can look up this story. This guy fell asleep, woke up, and murdered either the person in his house or his next door neighbor. He either wanted to be a few.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

No, he just claimed he was sleeping, he wanted to murder them. I don't believe that for a second.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

So that became the whole trial was is he lying and he murdered this person?

SPEAKER_02 33:05

I feel like I remember that.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

It it was a big story at the time because it was just so unusual. And his defense team presented a psychologist who said, Absolutely, you could do this in your sleep. And I latched onto that, and I can remember thinking to myself, I need to invent a lock that keeps you in your room that you can somehow deactivate in the morning. And where this has gotten really bad is I we have kids, and I don't mind admitting I used to use THC a fair amount to try to like calm my mind down and get it to quiet down. I don't anymore because I found it actually made things worse, and this is part of the reason why. I would find that if I got high when I was going to sleep, I would be like, I because I'm high right now, I'm gonna go to sleep, I'm gonna wake up, I'm gonna murder my whole family. I would uh like put stuff in front of the door that I would think like, oh, if I have to move this, then that will wake me up enough. And I'd like wrap my blanket super tightly around me. I don't think I've even told Leah about this, that I was just like, because imagine saying that to your partner, like, hey, hun, I'm worried I'm gonna murder our family tonight.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Yeah. Like yeah, I don't think the THC helped at all, Liam.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

No, I now I for that reason avoid using it because I think it just made the voices louder. I was like, let me take this so that I can take the edge off. And then two minutes later, I'm like, I'm gonna murder my whole family with a knife tonight.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

So Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

What was the fear that you were having when you were going to sleep? What what what were you thinking you were going to do?

SPEAKER_01 34:43

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

I don't think it was um maybe it was hurting someone, but I don't know leaving I mean the thought of just leaving your house in your sleep is scary enough, let alone murdering someone while you're yeah. Yeah, I I don't like getting inebriated or intoxicated or because I fear the same thing that I'm gonna lose control and something cre which I feel like that's a pretty rational thought.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Yeah, I think even just the thought of like maybe this sounds silly, but even just the thought of like walking against my will is like or like without knowing. Without knowing, I should say. Without knowing. Yeah. Uncomfortable. That's why like like I I've never again, I don't drink and I've never had a fear of getting drunk of like being like, what if I confess something that I I like a secret. Like I'm I I wasn't like worried about that. It's just the idea of not having control and not remembering.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

That's a huge thing, is not remembering So I wonder if a therapist would say, you know, on occasion you should have a glass of wine. Because I think we, you know, we we know for sure that's crazy. Alcohol is not good for someone with OCD. Like regular use of it. Um, I don't drink either. So I think all three of us are in the same boat. I I stopped because I would wake up the next morning and I wanted to kill myself. Um and so I was like, well, that's not good. Let me not do that. So I've I've just, you know, stopped using it altogether. Um, but I have started to wonder recently if like, no, on occasion I should let myself have a beer because it's almost become its own compulsion that I'm not allowing myself to do that anymore.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

Okay. Yes, we know it's not good for us. Yes, we know we may lose control, but it's also a very relaxing thing to have a glass of wine with your best friends. And it can be just a glass of wine, right? And it's like trusting my own decision in those moments to say, yeah, I know what I need to know about this, and I'm gonna choose to do it anyway. And I'm going to enjoy it, not beat myself up for it forever. I would beat myself up for having like a half a cocktail. And now I'm like, no, I'm making that choice wisely, and that's that.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

It's important to point out Alicia did murder someone that night.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

Um a girl went missing that night. Um however.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Worth it. You had mentioned earlier on uh you said something about sexual orientation OCD. What what was going on with that?

SPEAKER_01 37:24

Yeah, so I only worried about that when I was in a relationship because I was like afraid I was cheating um emotionally. Um, but that was pretty much what you would expect, which was just having thoughts of like, I think girls are pretty. Does that mean I'm gay? Um for some reason, I'm I'm like the most accepting person. I come from a very supportive family, but I was like terrified of that reality. I don't know why. Yeah. Um, I think it was more, you know, not like, oh my gosh, if you're gay, that's terrible. But it was more just um, you're a liar.

SPEAKER_02 37:58

Like because you've been we've talked about that a fair amount on this, on this podcast. And it's just it's all the same for all of us. We've all had the same thoughts and concerns and fears. It's wonderful to me.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

I used to take those BuzzFeed quizzes too. That was like, how do you know if you're gonna die?

SPEAKER_02 38:17

Yeah, same. I've taken those too.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

I'm like, I was desperate.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

I love that like BuzzFeed is getting so many clicks on those from all people with OCD being like, Do I have this? Do you have? We're just lighting up BuzzFeed BuzzFeed polls in WebMD. I'm on WebMD.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

Do you ever get any responses of like, yeah, maybe you are? I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, what do I do with this information now?

SPEAKER_01 38:46

I truly have no idea why I was so afraid of that. Like, I'm the most accepting person, my best friends are gay. Like I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

Because it's a huge thing. It's a huge identity thing, right? You're like, it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

I think that was it. I think that was I think that was it. You're right. I think it was um, in addition to feeling like a liar, you know, like lying to everyone, like I have a boyfriend and lying to my boyfriend at the time and stuff like that. Um, it was feeling like I didn't know who I was.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

What's been your favorite theme?

SPEAKER_02 39:17

I don't answer that. What do you mean, Liam?

SPEAKER_00 39:21

I mean it sarcastically, I suppose. Like which one's the one that's just like, God, like that one is wild. I can't believe that happened.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

So I like that you guys keep things casual and lighthearted. And I think the answer to this would be contamination OCD, because obviously it was so hard, but just like looking back, I was ridiculous. Like I wanted to shower three times a day. I washed my hands so much.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Um, the PJ Was all of that were were all of those compulsions being kept in secret? Because you said at some point your family found out and you were in therapy, but did you hide it for a long time before it became like a serious thing?

SPEAKER_01 40:01

Um, so I wanted to take a shower like three times a day, but I didn't because I knew my family would be like, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 40:08

Okay, so you resisted that urge because you thought people are gonna catch on to this is weird.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Yeah, yeah. Um, but I don't know if they noticed that I washed my hands a lot and they definitely didn't know about the PJ thing because it was again, it was two in the morning. But yeah, um, hopefully I didn't wake anyone up. But that was the I guess that was to to use your words, I guess that was like the easiest one. Or what word did you use? The funnest one?

SPEAKER_00 40:37

Favorite. Your favorite.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

Oh, favorite. Um it's I also feel like it's like don't get me wrong, OCD is so hard no matter what. But it feels looking back so much easier to get over physical compulsions than mental compulsions for me, because physical compulsions are so direct. And you know, it's like once you recognize them, they're easier to recognize, I feel, in regards to like, hey, maybe don't wash your hands this time, or maybe just only take one shower a day. Um, but mental compulsions for me, I didn't know were a thing for years. And they're still just so sneaky, especially ruminating and stuff like that. So, like I said, I think the contamination OCD is one that I can kind of laugh about because I was just terrified of germs and like sicknesses that literally you can't get like that way.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

And so it's just like the the mental compulsions are horrendous because they are invisible. And Liam and I were just talking about how we will do these mental reviewings, uh like reviewing past events that happened like 20 years ago. Okay, and yeah, they feel like they happened yesterday because it's you just think about it and think about it, think about it. Do you ever have those where something that happened forever ago will come up and you're like, why did I say that? Or why did I do that? Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:03

Oh yeah. Yeah. Especially at like two in the morning.

unknown 42:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

That's like the the torture hour of of overthinking.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

I just something you said uh piqued my interest. What were the illnesses you were worried you were gonna get? Mine, I I was very worried I was gonna get AIDS when I was like 11 years old for no reason. I thought I was gonna get AIDS. What were the illnesses you were you were worried about?

SPEAKER_01 42:31

I was convinced, this is so embarrassing, but I was convinced that you could get pregnant by having dirty hands.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

That's not embarrassing. That is classic OCD. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

I was like I was so afraid of being a teen mom.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

Remember we interviewed, I believe it was, oh, I'm gonna, I I think it was Nathaniel Van Kirk, Alicia. He is now a psychologist. He was worried he was gonna impregnate women by touching them. That like he shook hands with them.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

Didn't he used to like put his hands behind his back or something? Or was that something else?

SPEAKER_00 43:14

He just would not touch women. And in fact, I think he said at one point he thought it could even like transfer that if he had his hands on the table, it would somehow and then and then a woman touch the table, she could get pregnant. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Yeah, your mind goes to crazy. Yeah, I thought I was gonna have a black baby and have to explain that to my husband. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

Huh.

SPEAKER_02 43:38

I would I was pregnant and I was like, if this baby comes out black, what am I gonna do? Like it's impossible. But I my mind had me convinced that I was gonna be the the weird case in the story of having to explain that I didn't have a bear.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

I'm glad you guys understand.

SPEAKER_02 43:56

We are such weirdos. It's incredible that there's more people. People out there like me, I just really had no idea.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

Oh, thousand percent. But yeah, that was something that I never really But you're gonna be at the conference, right?

SPEAKER_02 44:09

Yes. Are you you're yeah, you're speaking. Liam's Liam's keynote speakers, um Yeah, with his wife, Leah. So what day are you speaking?

SPEAKER_01 44:19

Um July 10th. Um I'm speaking with four other people, and we're talking about like why advocacy is so important. Why is advocacy so important? It's so important because OCD is just so debilitating and it's so lonely. And honestly, I've had it for 20 years, and that was the first time sharing about the pregnancy thing ever.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

How does it feel to share that?

SPEAKER_01 44:48

It just feels like, oh boy, like the regular listeners are gonna be like, oh, what does that even mean? But no, it feels good because um it's just like it's such a it's so specific for each person, as you guys know, and therefore it's so lonely. And advocacy is important because I truly believe it saves lives. And it's just I think it's so amazing that there's this big community on Instagram that just shares like their OCD stories and tips and tricks and stuff like that, because I never knew that was a thing. And then when I discovered it, um, I was like, oh, I can like I can do this and I should. Like I feel like honestly, I'm not saying this for everybody, but just for me personally. I feel like because I've survived this, it's almost like my duty to help others, and that's why I want to become a counselor.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

Yeah, that's really cool. I know Alicia and I feel the same way. Um, tell us about key to OCD, because this is part of that mission for you and and what people can see by going there.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Yeah, so key to OCD, I started because I actually saw um Alex Behar's page, Recover OCD, and I know you guys have had her on the podcast. Um, she's killing it. She had 800 followers, and now I think she has like 24,000. And she helped me a lot because we collaborated a couple times, and she was the one that kind of, you know, like let me know that you can share your story and you can share like tips and tricks. And at first it felt a little interesting just because I wasn't a professional yet, and I'm still not. Um, so I didn't want to like kind of do the wrong thing or do something that's inappropriate.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

But wait, so you suffered from imposter syndrome?

SPEAKER_01 46:32

What's that? Yeah, you could say that. Um, but key to OCD to answer your question is really just um an outlet for people to hopefully feel comfortable and feel supported. Um, I share tips and tricks and ways that I overcome OCD and selfishly, I'm still overcoming OCD, so I actually sometimes go to my own page for reminders of how to deal with things. Um so yeah, it's really just hopefully, you know, an open place for people to be able to talk about their OCD, whether that's like in my comments or my DMs or whatever. And it's just been so fun. Like I went to an OCD walk in October out here in California and someone recognized me. And it was just, it was so, it was just so fun.

SPEAKER_02 47:21

You are changing lives when you speak up about it and the work you're doing, it goes further than you think. Um, if someone listening is struggling with OCD right now and feeling hopeless, what is something you would want them to know?

SPEAKER_01 47:34

I think the biggest thing is it sounds so cliche, but realizing you truly are not alone and the nice thing nowadays is that there are so many resources. Like the thing that I like about Instagram is that this stuff is free. And for me, I feel like therapy is amazing and it's life-changing, but sometimes it is treated like a luxury. And I want it to be affordable and accessible to anybody. I don't think it's fair that, you know, especially as you guys probably know, OCD specialists can be a lot of money. And we didn't ask for this, you know. So I just I want, I want everyone to be able to get help regardless of their financial situation or any any type of situation that they're in. Um so I think the biggest thing is, you know, reaching out and listening to podcasts like this and realizing that, you know, like we, like the three of us have done today, realizing that we're not alone and you know, there's there's a lot of relatable aspects, as silly as it may sound.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

I love that. Well, Anna, thank you so much for joining us. You can find out more from her at Key2OCD on Instagram. And uh you're just a you're a bright light. We can't wait to see you in Seattle.

SPEAKER_02 48:51

Thank you so much. Excited. Thank you so much. Did your OCD show up for you last night? Is there anything you can share with our listeners?

SPEAKER_00 49:07

Well, the OCD shows up for me probably the way it does for a lot of people with OCD in a social setting, which is just a lot of questions about okay, am I being funny enough right now? Am I being charming enough?

SPEAKER_02 49:25

Are these people Like am I doing this right?

SPEAKER_00 49:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

Like Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:28

Are they enjoying my company? Oh, that thing that I just said, was that inappropriate? Because I do have if I have foot and mouth syndrome big time. You do. I know you do. And then the number of times I've said shit and then been like, why did I say that? That is so I don't know these people well enough to say that.

SPEAKER_02 49:48

Have you ever thought about things that you've said like 20 years later?

SPEAKER_00 49:54

All the time. All the time. I'll be cooking dinner and listening to Sade. Listening to Sade, and then a thought will pop into my head, a memory of an awkward interaction I had or something I said that was really inappropriate and didn't I didn't intend for it to be. And I will literally scream out loud 20 years later, just be like, God. I was walking the dog, you know, maybe a uh a year ago. It was it was last spring, and there's this lovely Irish couple who lives down the street from us, and I don't know them well, but enough to say hello when we pass each other in the neighborhood, that kind of thing. And he was out he was out in the yard, like putting grass seed on the yard or something like that. And I was walking Kiki and he said something to me, but he has kind of a thick Irish accent. And so I wasn't totally sure what he said. So I was like, what? And he said it again, and for the second time I still didn't fully understand what he said. But yeah, I you can't ask a third time. So I just did one of those things where I was like, Yeah, it's about time. I thought that he said I thought that he said something about the weather because it was like a nice day finally. So I was like, Yeah, it's about time, and then just kept walking. And I didn't realize until like two minutes later that what he had said was I'm finally taking care of the lawn. No. So what I had said to him was it's about time.

SPEAKER_02 51:41

Did you go back and app see, I my default is to go back and correct that. As embarrassing as it is, I cannot live with the fact that maybe I uh offended somebody or said something totally out of place. So I would go back and be like, I'm sorry, what did you say? Because I feel like I maybe responded to the wrong thing.

SPEAKER_00 52:05

No, I just kept I just kept going. It was too awkward. Thanks for listening to another episode of the OCD Confessional. Be sure to follow the show so you get new episodes. You can subscribe to us on YouTube or find us on Instagram and TikTok at the OCD Confessional.